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- [00:05]
A
Hello, and welcome back to the Glossy Podcast. I'm your host, senior fashion reporter Danny Parisi, and we are actually out this week. So we are running an old episode from last October. It's me, our editor in chief, Jill Manoff, and our international reporter, Zofius Zyglinska, talking about the new rules of denim and breaking down what's happening in the denim industry. I think this conversation is still extremely relevant. A lot of the brands we talk about, Abercrombie and Levi's, are still blowing up, and denim is still a huge growth driver. And a lot of the trends that we talk about in the episode, people shopping, lots of different styles, narrower jeans, wider jeans, barrel leg, low rise. All this stuff I think is still relevant. So we'll be back next week with a new episode, but until then, take a listen. Okay. Welcome back. I am here with our international reporter, Zofia Zviglinska and our editor in chief, Joe Manoff. Hello, guys.
- [00:59]
B
Hi. Hello.
- [01:01]
A
Thank you both for being here. We are here to discuss the denim industry, and we're kind of building this conversation as, like, the new rules of denim. It's a category that we, the three of us, have talked about a lot, written about a lot. Incredibly competitive, increasingly competitive, I would say. I pulled some data, but Tech Navio says the denim industry is going to grow by $26 billion in the US in the next four years. There are lots of brands all kind of active in the space, big campaigns, a lot of changes in the way people shop for denim. It's also perennially, perennially popular as a category. And I just thought it would be good to kind of go through and talk about what we're seeing in the denim space and break down some of the new rules of denim. The way I want to structure this conversation is we're going to talk about some of the big trends in denim. We're going to talk about the different customers for denim, the different shoppers categories and profiles. And then lastly, we're going to talk about some of the brands, and we kind of have broken down some of the big denim brands into various categories. And then at the end, we'll kind of share some of our concluding thoughts and, you know, try to help you navigate this. This complicated space of. Of denim. So I thought we'd just start with, like, the trends. I mean, I think there's. There's specific trends in terms of product, like, obviously, skinny jeans are out and wider, like, jeans are in. But I also think there's trends in terms of just the way people shop. So I don't know, I'll throw it over to you guys. What are some things you see happening in denim?
- [02:34]
C
Yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot happening. Like, as you see, there's so much diversification in terms of the amount of styles out there. I don't think there's ever been another time in fashion or in the denim space when everyone's going for different things. And as a result, it means that there's a lot more choice. So everything from skinny to barrel legs to wide leg, western to rhinestone butterfly covered denim, all of that is happening at the same time and it's all for different customer groups. So that's what I'm seeing. And based on some of the conversations I've had with execs at brands like American Eagle, madewell know those are brands that have been leaning into the gamut of different denim styles. It's not just one style that is popular for them. Even though I think they've been skewing a little bit more wide leg or, you know, personalized customized jeans, most of them are running with multiple styles across, you know, the whole brand.
- [03:35]
A
Yeah. And I think this is also a change in how people shop too. I recently spoke with Corey Robinson, who's the chief product officer at Abercrombie and Fitch, a brand with a big denim business. And we'll talk about that more later. That was one of the things he said is like, obviously there's more, more diversity of styles across the industry and across, like, customers. But he was also saying within one customer's closet, it used to be very common for people to kind of find one fit of denim that they liked and just buy, you know, that same pair in different colors and washes and things like that. Now he said, like, the same customer might have narrower jeans and wider leg jeans and low rise jeans and higher and like, have it all and like switch between them much more frequently and easily than they used to. So I think you're right, Sophia. It's happening across the category and within brands, but also within individual customers, like shopping habits. They're not just sticking to one. And we'll talk more about customer profiles. But I think that from what he said, it sounds like that's pretty common across different customers and demographics.
- [04:38]
C
Yeah.
- [04:38]
B
And a lot of the conversations being fueled on social media. Like there's some hotly debated about whether high waist or low waist is going to be in over the next couple of years. Or again, the skinny verse wide debate is of course the one that's most out there. But it's really like what are we debating? Like you said, anything goes between washes and cuts and rises. I found this interesting stat which Danny, you were talking about the booming rise in denim sales over the next couple of years, which to me and what's happening now, it shows like the denim industry really rose to a challenge really fast because there was a great story back from March 2024 that I found in the Sourcing journal and it was talking about the fact that obviously denim sales declined sharply during the pandemic and then boomed in 21 22, 2021, 2022. But then in 2023 it showed that there was a 5% drop in denim sales and it was calling for like a lack, calling for new diversification and innovation in denim and that there was this kind of lackluster interest in denim and so, and lack of newness. And so now it's like new, new, new, new, new. It happened so fast and so definitely it's like what came first, the customer demand or like is the the denim industry driving this, like seeing the need. But definitely interesting to watch something that I saw too, which I think is a good indicator of what's resonating now. I went up to some of the multi brand retailers that are really, I would say like taste makers for like in the luxury industry. We know Mytheresa is doing very well and when I looked at their denim out of their 878 styles, the ones that are kind of they bought into the most are high waisted. 460 out of the 878 are high waisted and 423 out of the 878 are wide. And similar trends on revolve for a more affordable denim brand or more trendy or contemporary that most of their styles out of the thousand plus are either higher. Wait, wait, what was it? High waisted, 1530 of them or flared and wide leg. So those two trends really resonated about across both. So there are trends among the many styles is what I'm saying.
- [07:04]
A
Yeah, no, it's true. And there's lots of like visual diversification. I mean we mentioned like there I'm seeing more denim with like rhinestones and prints and patterns and crazy stuff added to it, which I think connects to what you were saying Joe, of like there was this period of a lack of newness, a lack of interest. You'd go to a store and it's like we have three fits and we have like three variations of the same like dark Wash, you know, and not as much interest. I'm gonna reference this a bunch, but when I went to. I went to Abercrombie event recently, when I spoke with Corey Robinson, they had. This was for a collaboration they're doing. They had jeans with rhinestones and, like, metal kind of like decorations all up and down the leg. And they had just, I don't know, a lot more interesting kind of stuff.
- [07:49]
B
Yeah.
- [07:49]
C
It seems like there's been, I think, a bigger draw towards making jeans that are a little bit more unique. I think denim is one of those areas where no one really wants to be wearing exactly the same thing. I think that's also why you've seen the interest in vintage denim or selvage. I think most people don't want to have exactly the same pair. And I think as a result, bigger retailers are now thinking about that too, and. And offering those kind of customizations that maybe would have been seen as a little bit uncool. Maybe in 2015, you would have worn a similar pair to what everyone else is wearing. And even though everyone has a wide leg silhouette now, it's all slightly different. And I think they want to be slightly different from their competitors as well.
- [08:36]
B
Yeah. On that note, there were some. When I was researching, there were some kind of similarities between what's happening in denim and almost the quiet luxury conversation, actually, because, you know, there are some indicators of brand, even though all of these styles are so very similar. But, you know, one style, a brand that. That's really doing well in denim on the luxury side is Kate, and they're known for their black button. I think that it still. Still is true. It definitely was early on in their. In their denim collection. And then, you know, still here does a little stitched S H that's a little bit more of an affordable brand, obviously, little red tab on Levi's. But it's like there are indicators of what you're wearing. There's certain styles that have a cool factor. A lot of the luxury shoppers that I looked into, like Sophia, Richie, Grange, Grange, Richie, whatever her name is, and also Morgan Stewart, like, they wear Levi's 501 or Levi's jeans all the time. And meanwhile, they're wearing Hermes and, I don't know, Chanel and all the other things. So it's interesting. It's not like there's a question of what. What is. What has the cool factor. What is aspirational. I'm seeing a lot of what is aspirational is, like, the hard to find or hard to fit Vintage styles that fit you great, they're worn in. That's something that people look for, but it's not necessarily something you'd find at a thrift store really easily.
- [10:08]
A
Well, we'll talk about this brand more later when we get into brand discussion. But, I mean, true religion also has that very distinct horseshoe stitching on the back. That's another one where it's like, when you're wearing them, it's like. No, it's notable what brand you're wearing. It's not like it doesn't just disappear into the background. What do you guys think about sort of the trend cycle of denim? Because I've had a few conversations. I spoke with Emma Greed of many brands, but specifically for this conversation, Good American, which is a denim brand. Um, and she talked about how the. The trend cycle for denim is a little slower than maybe for other categories that people tend to. Even as we're talking about diversification, they do tend to, like, hang on to styles they like maybe a little bit longer and not quite as rapid fire as, like, the TikTok era has made other categories. She said that they're still selling a good amount of skinny and straight jeans, even as all these other styles are. Are becoming common. So I don't know, is that something you guys observe as well?
- [11:04]
C
Yeah, definitely. I think that there's a lot of customers who end up repurchasing jeans when they need them, and then there's the ones who kind of lean into those trends. And I think that that's probably why we're seeing a lot more of these styles now is because also retailers want to tempt people into buying more pairs of jeans than they may necessarily need, which is a sustainability measure in itself. And I think something that we can discuss on a different podcast. But it seems like buying multiple pairs, you know, one of those ways to get customers to do that is by offering them different styles.
- [11:40]
B
Yep. And like you said, things are moving slow, but things are moving. So, like, the data shows that skinny styles are slowing or, you know, declining in sales while the wide styles are growing. Tick, tick, tick. But like, yeah, people buy and spend a little more on denim, and they keep them a little longer and cost per wear is very low. So it's like, you have them, you're fine with them. You're not necessarily looking for something more to kind of spruce up your. It's like, it's a statement piece. You're just wearing them. Everyone wears them.
- [12:09]
A
Yeah. Let's move on to our second sort of, like, super topic. Here I want to talk about who are the different customers for denim. A big one I think to discuss is the young Gen Z, Gen Alpha, like teen customer. Because I think that's what's driving a lot of the shift. And I think denim in general is like very generational. Like there's been a lot of almost like the talk about like millennials and their skinny jeans. Gen Z and their wide jeans is like, it becomes like a symbol of generational divide, you know, like Gen Z People posting TikToks, like wearing skinny jeans and they're like, look, I'm a millennial. Like just it like it becomes this kind of like a symbol for how different the generations are because it's like so, like millennials are so stuck in their skinny jeans or whatever. But I do think that that younger customer is driving, I think a lot of that like diversification. I think they're, from what I've seen, they are at the same time they're like both more open to trying different styles and wearing lots of different types of jeans. But then also weirdly they're like into a lot of the same brands that were popular back then. I think they have helped revive a lot of the Y2K brands that we're going to talk about. Like Abercrombie, which is like, was popular when I was a teenager and I'm, I think a young, a young millennial or middle millennial or something. But then those same brands are very popular with like a younger Gen Z customer now. And those brands absolutely want to cultivate that young audience. So I think that the younger shopper maybe has less purchasing power and less money, but it has a lot of like cultural power and we can talk about that, that later as well. But I think people are influenced by like 16 year olds on TikTok. So the brands really want to target this customer.
- [13:56]
B
Yeah. Do you think? More than any other demo, to me it reads as they're, they shop comfort first or trend first. So like you can picture them in their drawstring baggy jeans, but you can also picture them wearing Britney Spears down to their below their belly button cut, low waisted jeans. So I trend forward.
- [14:18]
A
Yeah, I definitely think so.
- [14:20]
C
I think that a lot of that is also just driven in that interest in nostalgia. You mentioned the kind of Y2K aspect and obviously Gen Z is the, I would say the main target group right now who's shopping resale and who's interested in thrifting and kind of thrifting heavy as well. So doing a lot of Research figuring out kind of what's cool or what they think is interesting. And I think it's that mix between, you know, the mass brands or ones that were popular in that Y2K era, so AE, Abercrombie, you know, even a gold or thrifted Levi's, and then the kind of resale aspect of denim as well. So customizing, you know, pairs that they're finding in, you know, outlets, for example, like, that's something I think is very Gen Z. And I think like, if we had like a celebrity icon for this like age group, I would say it's Olivia Rodrigo because she like wears a lot of like vintage styles, but then does some which are contemporary as well.
- [15:17]
A
Yeah, I think that's a great illustrative example of that demo. What are some other denim customer groups we can focus on?
- [15:28]
C
Yeah, so you have the 30 to 40 year old elevated buyer, which I am now in that category. Congratulations. Thank you. Customer wants polish, but without losing that comfort. I think a lot of people still have focused on comfort after the pandemic, still, you know, a different style of jean to maybe what it was. I think innovation in the denim space has a lot to do with it. With the type of waistbands you have the like, stretch composition, even like the way the denim falls. Like a lot of them are a lot thinner. I think that they used to be. And I think the 30 to 40 year old customer now kind of wants to have denim as part of this like minimalist wardrobe. So, like what you mentioned, Jo, like Kate Frame, you know, even largents. I think that there's people who have been coming out of like post pandemic work and want something a little bit more structured that they can wear like across outfits. And I think it's also someone who doesn't mind spending a little bit more, but also still likes discounts. So they'll spend, you know, like $400 on jeans. But they do expect craftsmanship and maybe like a story to go with that. A lot of these, like contemporary brands that go after this customer, you know, they're looking for something sustainability stories as well. So, like things that maybe have a little bit of background or they can kind of go into so anything like frame or totem, like both of those go into Japanese fabrics or like subtle washes. Like that's something that I think exemplifies the 30 to 40 year old kind of buyer. I don't know if she really fits into the age group. I feel like it's the style of Gwyneth Paltrow. I'm not sure if it's someone who's kind of wearing it now.
- [17:10]
A
Yeah, that's a good one though. But I think you're right. Those that that age group might spend several hundred dollars on a pair of jeans as opposed to the gen Z, like $60 on a pair of jeans or something. But maybe not like Balenciaga, you know, four digit like spend on a pair of jeans.
- [17:27]
B
There's so many brands in that range. When I was looking, I was doing research and like you said, some have really stood out like the, I say a Goldie, a gold silver Lake.
- [17:36]
A
I think it's Agoldie.
- [17:36]
B
Yeah, Mother. And like even like Anina Bing makes great jeans and there's a great brand out there that I think all their denims are on $200 called pistola. Anyway, I feel like there's some are standing out like you said, differentiating via sustainability or affordability, but still kind of has the same, the same fit and the same details. And some of these old, these ones that have been around forever are still holding on like ag and rag and bone seven for all mankind, all of those, which is good to see.
- [18:09]
A
I also wanted to mention the plus customer, which I think is a customer that has been burned quite a bit over the years by denim brands. I don't know if you guys remember, several years ago Old Navy went super hard on size inclusivity and they were going to. And Old Navy's a big denim brand. They're not only denim, but they do a lot of denim sales. And then they ended up kind of pulling back on that. And I think a lot of people were not happy about that. But I think the plus customer because like the thing I hear in a lot of my conversations about plus size fashion is like those customers I do think tend to be more loyal because it's like so it can be really hard to find clothes that fit well and, and are made well and are not like, you know, sectioned off in, in like some different part of the mall or something. So that's I think an important customer in terms of loyalty.
- [19:03]
B
Speaking of, I was just on a call with several people right before this and I was like, I'm going into a podcast. We're talking about denim. What's your go to brand? And it was women of all shapes and sizes and multiple said Good American, which we know that they do a great job with inclusive sizing. And some specifically called out Khloe Kardashian as being their denim icon. And just knowing that and then they would tie that to Good American, which is interesting.
- [19:29]
A
Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that because I had it in my notes and I forgot to say it, but Good American is definitely probably one of the more bigger mainstream denim brands that is like openly, directly appealing to this customer.
- [19:43]
C
I was just going to mention madewell as well in that range just because they do have a great kind of plus side range. I think they really kind of get that balance right between denim styles that are maybe more kind of evergreen and then ones which are a little bit more trendy. So like for autumn winter, they have a bunch of corduroy type kind of trousers or jeans. And I think that that's something that is a little bit more unique and allows, I think, those customers who typically would go for something very standard to try something new. I think it's also really interesting right now to be talking about plus size ranges with denim, considering the Ozempic conversation and how that's, you know, maybe affecting people in terms of the styles that they go for. I think this is also why so many people are trying different types of clothes now is because they're also able to. I think it gives them more opportunity to, to test new things if they feel more confident with what they're wearing.
- [20:39]
B
Yes, man. For years, madewell really, really was the it go to denim brand. And we know the creative director of madewell went to Alex Mill. And I'm seeing Alex Mille pop up on more of these sites when they're talking denim guides and brands to try, which is interesting to see. Another demo we wanted to talk about was just the business professional, like people buying jeans to wear to work. They're allowed to, I guess, dress business casual. What brands are they going for? I mean, it's kind of an old school take on it, but I still see that kind of the recommendation or the safe bet for going to work is kind of the clean, inky styles, like no embellishment, no. No rips and tears. And some brands that stood out that are doing that and that are often recommended are like Aritzia and Favorite Daughter and Cause and Banana Republic and J. Crew and Banana Burberry. Anyway, there are a lot of them and somebody that I kind of thought would be like our. Our icon for wearing jeans to work. And that does it really well. Speaking of Good American. But Emma Greed is this kind of budding style icon. Like she tape, she records herself walking out of the elevator to work every day. And I feel like she has a little bit more flexibility in terms of what she wears working for a denim brand, but she does dev from that very clean style. And maybe she'll wear a barrel leg one day and wear a skinny leg with some great boots another day. But yeah, that's definitely somebody people can turn to for advice or for direction.
- [22:07]
A
Lastly, we've touched on a bunch of brands already and their connection to trends and to the customer. But I wanted to take a few minutes to kind of break down some of the brands we see as being very prominent and in two sort of categories. And the first one I want to talk about is, I have just written down is like the OGs. This is brands that are like have have been very strongly associated with denim and very dominant in the category and remain so to this day. I think Levi's is a great example. Like Levi's is the denim brand. There's lots of others too. But they have been a major player in denim for a very long time and they've like been, you know, doing super well recently with like the boom in denim sales like and then their last quarter their sales were up like 7% beating analyst expectations and their own expectations. They've been doing well. But there's other brands we mentioned Old Navy and Gap, there's Wrangler, Ralph Lauren has a great denim business. All of these brands have been very popular in denim and continue to be and have just been there the entire time. And we'll talk about some brands that maybe were less popular and came back and everything. But some of these ones I think are just like have always been at the top of the pyramid.
- [23:18]
C
I think some of that is just down to as well how linked the denim category is with trust and customer trust. You have so many brands out there right now and not all of them are kind of putting out quality product. So if you do have a heritage brand, let's say Levi's or Ralph Lauren, those are brands that people trust. And as a result I think that that means that they'll be the go tos for denim. And even with so much diversity, diversification and so many different brands out there right now, I think that value and I guess the longevity part, you know, you see this on Instagram and in Tiktoks all the time, is that, you know, Levi's last, like that's why they are the ones which are thrifted is because they keep kind of popping up in places because they have been passed down through like five different people over the course of their life and they still do like that. Durability conversation is really important when you're talking about these kind of like, OG Brands. Yeah.
- [24:16]
A
And I think they're also just a lot of times, like the default, like, even the most fashion illiterate person, if you ask them to name a denim brand, could probably come up with Levi's. Jill, do you have any thoughts on this category? Should we talk about another?
- [24:27]
B
No, I'm game with all the other brands you mentioned. I so agree. Agree that it's about trust. And once you like. It's almost like once you find a brand that you know, fits, nobody wants to be trying on denim. It's like the swimsuit category. It's like the hardest to find something that fits you like a glove. So I, I just think going back again and again just makes sense.
- [24:45]
A
Yeah. The other big category I want to talk about is these kind of. Again, we've touched on these already, but these, like, Y2K sort of mall brands that I think have had a serious comeback in the last couple of years. Abercrombie is a big one. American Eagle has a huge denim business. We also talked about True Religion. They have, like, you know, True Religion is on their way to $1 billion in sales. Like, every time I talk to them, they're getting closer and closer. They're at, like, over, I think, over half a billion in sales at the moment. And they do big, flashy marketing campaigns, as has American Eagle, the Sydney Sweeney campaign, which we've talked about on the podcast. So these brands have had a real resurgence. Abercrombie, I think, had one of the best performing stocks on the US Stock market a year or two ago. And they have totally rebranded themselves Abercrombie, I mean, and shed a lot of whatever weird baggage they may have had from that heyday and the late 2000s, early 2000s. And now they're, like, really popular with Gen Z again. So a lot of these Y2K mall brands have had a strong resurgence and are particularly with denim.
- [25:51]
C
Yeah. And I think a lot of that is also just down to the way that they're marketing these denim launches. You know, I think that the American Eagle, Sydney Sweeney, 1, it was still kind of limited, like, collaboration. Like her launch or her denim piece is only like one of a few. Like, it's not part of the main range, but it is something that really brought, I guess, the brand up to a different kind of cultural wavelength. I think these big campaigns that you used to see with denim, that would kind of be emblematic. I think this is kind of the same area that we're in right now. Where you see American Eagle and Sydney Sweeney or True Religion and Ciara. Those are the kinds of campaigns that are really breaking through right now, which is a big achievement, I think, considering how, I guess how much we're seeing on social media, especially with all of these different launches.
- [26:41]
B
I just want to ask, where are the Apple bottom jeans? Yeah, they're jeans. Bags. Yeah. Or like baby fat. I think they had jeans.
- [26:51]
A
Yeah. Well, also, one more thing about this category is just because I just wrote about this, so it's top of mind. But both True Religion and Abercrombie did these Wags campaign recently, like, working with women connected to sports. I think they both, like. Abercrombie is an official partner of the NFL. True Religion is working with, like, NBA players all the time. These brands are also, like, pretty in touch with sports, which is obviously huge in fashion right now. So that's just another.
- [27:18]
B
Big budgets.
- [27:19]
A
Yeah, they got big budgets, exactly.
- [27:21]
B
Denim wars is right. Who can get out there the most? Another category we wanted to talk about is kind of the 2010s era, direct to consumer brands. We already talked about Madewell pretty much, but also wanted to shout out Reformation, obviously Everlane. Again, known for sustainability, known for transparency. Different things across them, but they've definitely held true. Held on. Not really a 2010s brand, I don't believe. But also I just wanted to say, like, a lot of these brands that we're talking about, they're really just known for great basics, which that's what denim is. And, you know, Uniqlo has great jeans or jeans that people go to. I was just seeing a lot of buzz around the JW Anderson and Uniqlo denim style. I don't know the new collab that's out and they're a great go to. So great basics. Buck Mason for men. So, yeah, direct to consumer brands, for sure.
- [28:18]
A
Yeah. And a lot of, like, the 2010s DTC era brands, not specific to denim, have not all survived and have not all, like, made a great, you know, transition into the modern era. Like, we have talked a few times about Allbirds, which is not denim, they're shoes, but, like, of the same kind of era and school as some of these brands. And they have had a really hard time the last couple of years. So not every brand from that era has kind of made it through. And denim, I think as a basic, like you said and we mentioned, is an always popular category, feels like a safe place for them to be. What other categories of brands can we talk about?
- [28:56]
C
I think there's also that you know, salvage and Japanese influence or like vintage styles. Like that has always been this kind of counterculture of connoisseur denim. You know, you have the people who like like main brand and then the people who try and find all of the niche stuff. And it's the same with denim. You have Japanese mills like Kaihara or Kurori Momotaro. All of those ones are very popular. Again, I think that's also in part with the fact that the Japanese shopping scene was very popular this past year as Japan's been a massive tourist destination. I think as a result there's been more visibility into those kind of denim supply chains. You see a lot of collaborations now as well with Japanese mills. So you have main, main brands also looking at collaborations with these kind of original producers of denim which are like done in, in like the old fashioned way with proper kind of indigo dyeing and all of the different kind of knitting techniques. I think that that's something that is really popular with like a specific subset of denim.
- [30:04]
B
Yeah, connoisseurs, the brands that are like very attached to or well known for that style. Like I hear a lot with APC and But it'll be interesting to see how that holds up because I just for on the modern retail side for our tariffs weekly newsletter I was talking to somebody that the founder of this multi brand retailer called Standard and Strange I believe and they only sell basically 99% I believe maybe 100 brands that from Japan clothing made in Japan. And I mean like the tariff situation is really hurting them bad. It's like something has to change or we're not going to survive. He just. Within the last week I got word that he has moved to Japan to create a relationship with the manufacturers and make a go of it and try to do what he can. But yeah, that's a really troubled area at the moment.
- [30:59]
A
Yeah. Something else I wanted to say about that. Selvage and Japanese denim that's super high quality. We haven't really touched at all on men's. The men's side of this specifically. And a moment from like a couple years ago that I wanted to call out. I wrote about it at the time the TV show the Bear came out with Jeremy Allen White and it was like a big like you know, the first season was a huge hit and there's a scene in the first one of the first few episodes where he like needs to buy a bunch of beef and in order to afford it he like goes in his closet and sells a bunch of like raw Japanese, like, salvaged denim. And, like, everyone I know who is, like, a menswear, like, denim head was like, oh, shit. Like, this show is, like, very in tune with, like, denim head, like, enthusiasts. And I feel like there was a brief moment he also, in that show wears, like, these super high quality, like, Japanese T shirts that are made with the, like, loop mill process or whatever. And I think that show had, like, definitely had an impact on getting more men into this, like, enthusiast, like, denim head kind of world. So I don't have data to support this. I couldn't find anything definitive, but I feel like this is a category that a certain type of menswear enthusiast is very into.
- [32:15]
B
They're so passionate, and there's a lot of, again, heated discussion about you never wash them or do you ever, or did you wash them? How many? Oh, God, yeah.
- [32:26]
A
Yeah. It's a very intense category, but I'm glad we called that one out. Any other denim brand categories before we come to our conclusion here? We touched on, like, luxury designer a little bit. Kate, you mentioned Jill YSL does denim, but we already kind of discussed. So. Okay, so let's conclude here with just a couple of, like, the new rules of denim I want to talk about and just sort of, like, sum up what we've been talking about. I think in some of our discussions before this recording, we talked about denim kind of expanding horizontally. There's a lot of brands, as we have discussed, that are all kind of viable in the space. There's a lot of styles that are viably in at once. You know, it's not like one single style dominating. I think certainly some are more popular than others, but it just feels like a very diverse category at the moment. That's what I would say is, like, one of the big takeaways. What about you guys?
- [33:26]
C
Yeah, I agree. I think it's that fit kind of pluralism, and for me, I think it's all about kind of fabrication now. It's the thing that kind of matters more because of the whole kind of craftsmanship conversation happening in luxury. And I guess the amount of knowledge that people are able to get through social channels now by everyone talking about how denim is created or what makes a good pair of jeans, that I think is. Is really important. So it's that kind of fabrication that I think is now defining what good denim looks like. And then if you're not leaning into that, you will be in five years once that, you know, cheaper pairs wears out.
- [34:06]
B
Right on. And we didn't really talk about it much, but I feel like we're in this whole, we're in a, I don't know, transformative time for the industry. There's a lot of change happening in the LA denim world where a lot of manufacturing is happening and a lot happening with the workforce there. And I don't know. And there are families, families that are multi. Multiple brands have, have emerged from these kind of denim leaders, leader families. So anyway, there's a lot happening there. I feel like, anyway, a state of change right now in terms of the rules. I think anything goes like we've been saying. I think where there are really rules or like more so rules and like have has to do with how we're styling them like back in the day. So old school people would be like, you know, don't wear baggy bottom with a baggy top. Like one has to be tight, one has to be. I think those old rules are out the door. But I do feel like, you know, there's a lot of conversation around the right shoe to wear with your denim. Like a kitten heel or a little like a sling back will look good with like a straight leg. And there's a lot of talk when those ballet sneakers came out, like, they don't look good with my baggy jeans. Like what are people wearing with this? So I did look before we came onto this call. Like Alison Borenstein has a lot to say about, about how to style denim and like when you want to dress it up, definitely wear a belt and things like that. So I do think it's more around the styling than the style of the jean. And there are rules, but it is personal style. It's a number one. We know Gen Z champions that prioritizes that and doesn't want to look like everyone else.
- [35:42]
A
Yes, absolutely. One more thing I want to say is on the marketing side and the way brands kind of advertise denim, I think there's. And this maybe goes beyond denim too. I feel like there's a permeation of those different customer categories we were talking about. I think there is, you know, 45 year olds who are being influenced by a 16 year old on TikTok. And like, I think some of those like trends and marketing strategies kind of go across age groups and demographics in a way that maybe they didn't used to. You don't necessarily need to have a brand ambassador who's 18 years old in order to target the 18 year old demographic. Maybe that's true beyond denim too, but I definitely see that in just in a lot of the campaigns and the way these brands are marketed.
- [36:26]
B
Yeah.
- [36:26]
C
And I think we'll be seeing that more internationally as well. K pop icons wearing certain styles of jeans influences customers in America. And I think we've seen that with some of the kind of collaborations or campaigns with like Gap and Catseye. Like those kind of things really are a new feature for denim. And I think something that we should be watching a little bit more as this kind of becomes the safe harbor, I guess, category for a lot of retailers to go to with, you know, stable cotton prices and a relatively low kind of risk for brands as well.
- [37:03]
B
And judging from the latest fashion month I mentioned to you guys, Jonathan Simkai says shredded denim, Shredded shredded to the nth degree is coming back for spring. So anyway, I think we can expect more embellishment, more interest in terms of the style.
- [37:20]
A
Yes, for sure. Well, I think that's all the time we have for this discussion, but thank you both for joining. This was a great conversation. And thank you for listening to the Glossy Podcast. Don't forget to give us a rating and a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, wherever you listen to this, because that helps us out so much. And don't forget to subscribe to the Glossy Podcast to hear interviews with industry insiders. The new episodes come out every Friday. Until the next time. Thanks for listening.