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The Glossy Podcast
Week in Review: Abercrombie & Fitch, Boohoo and a lawsuit between influencers
00:29:25
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- [00:06]
A
Hello and welcome back to the Glossy Week in Review podcast. I'm your host, senior fashion reporter, Danny Parisi, and I'm here with our editor in chief, Jill Manoff. Hello, Jill.
- [00:15]
B
Hello. Feeling good. We are approaching that long holiday week.
- [00:19]
A
We're approaching the long holiday week. We are recording this the day before Thanksgiving. But if you are listening to this, it is after Thanksgiving. So happy Thanksgiving to everybody. Happy. I'm also just getting over being sick, possibly with flu B, which is a type of flu I didn't even know existed. My friends were staying with me and they told me after they left they had flu B. So thanks to them, Danny.
- [00:39]
B
And he's still here. What a trooper.
- [00:42]
A
I'm still here. I think you can probably hear it a little bit in my voice, but it's definitely a lot better today than it was the last couple days. But yes, I'm excited. We're going to be talking about a couple different things. So Abercrombie had earnings this week and they're such an interesting brand, so we're going to dive into some of the data from that. We will also look at this ongoing drama between Fraser's group and Boohoo. And then finally, the topic I'm most excited to talk about is this super interesting lawsuit between two Amazon influencers. There was a fantastic article in the Verge this week, really digging into it, and we're going to talk about it because it feels very relevant to the glossy audience, the creator economy, all the thorny, like, completely unregulated topics that come up with influencers and stuff that I'm really excited to talk about.
- [01:25]
B
It was a meaty story. I was like, danny, what does he have me reading?
- [01:28]
A
Whoa, whoa.
- [01:29]
B
It's going good though, right? It's going and it's going. It was juicy.
- [01:32]
A
Yeah, it was really good. Shout out to the Verge because that was a great story. But first, let's talk about Abercrombie. So I feel like we've talked about them a couple times on the podcast before. In recent years, they have been on such a tear. They've been growing. I think they just posted six consecutive quarters of double digit growth in revenue. Sales this quarter were 1.21 billion, which is up from 1.09 billion in the year prior. So, like, they're just continuing to kill it. We've talked about some of the reasons that they've. They've been killing it. One thing I thought was interesting though is that despite yet another quarter of growth from them, their stock price dropped a little bit afterwards and the reason why, I think, speaks to sort of this weird thing that happens with publicly traded companies where growth is kind of like always the most important thing. And even though they've been growing so much, the growth has kind of slowed a little bit. Like they're growing by, you know, this much percentage points instead of more. So even though the company is still doing really well, the investors see like the slowdown and then they're like, time to cash out. And it's like this weird thing where it feels like even when a company is doing well, they kind of can still get punished a little bit by the investors. It's. It's such a weird thing. I often wonder why companies even want to go public, because it seems like such a headache. But. Yeah. What, what did you make of their earnings this quarter?
- [02:45]
B
I. I agree that it was interesting that the stock fell, considering it has risen 75% over the course of this year. It's way up. It is way up. Abercrombie is killing it. Like you said, growing, but not fast enough, it seems. And I could see their stock recently fell when, when the whole drama, scandal came out about their former CEO and involved in sex trafficking and all of this business, which that, I mean, that kind of tarnishes the brand's name or it could. Thankfully, he's not currently still on the C Suite, but like, something like that, I could see it dipping because. Oh, God, you don't want any drama surrounding your brand. But this, it seemed a little silly. Calm down. Like, what. Where else are these folks investing? Because no other brand is seeing the consistent growth. I mean, there are other brands, but it's so rare. Quarter after quarter.
- [03:36]
A
No, it's. It's definitely rare in Abercrombie, I think. I mean, I think if I remember correctly that they were one of the best performing stocks anywhere on the stock exchange last year. So, and especially for apparel brands, and we've talked about luxury in particular, has been having kind of a slowdown, but I think apparel in general, their former CEO, that interesting. Like, I didn't think that that would impact them that much. And mostly because he feels like just from a different era of Abercrombie. And I think they've done a fairly thorough job of sort of distancing themselves from that, from that era, from him in particular. He was the same guy who was like, we don't want ugly poor people wearing our clothes and stuff. And that was definitely like the mindset that I think a lot of people felt from Abercrombie in the past was that it's like this very elitist kind of place. And I think they've gone pretty far to try and shake that feeling. And I think they've done pretty well. I don't really think of them like that at all anymore. I'm aware that that's in their history, but it feels like that's been pretty thoroughly kind of rinsed from the way they run things now.
- [04:39]
B
I agree. And I feel like they've done a good job of kind of shaking any negative image around surrounding the brand, like the mall brand label. Like, this is a cool brand now and it's been thriving because of, in part because of TikTok and, and the girls loving the jeans and that kind of gave it a comeback. But ever since then, if you go on the site now for Abercrombie, the brand also, they own Hollister, as we know. But like the loungewear, it looks very much like skims. If you. The dresses, the imagery looks very much like reformation on the girls side, on the guy's side. Like, I talked about Abercrombie a lot when I just recently did a story on knit polos and how they're really like the go to for a more affordable version. And the cool guys that I listen to on Retail Therapy podcast, they repeatedly reference Abercrombie as being kind of like a more affordable option for any trend that they're discussing on. On the men's front. So killing it. And Hollister just looks to me like a younger, cozier version that like my pre teen niece would love. Like, I'm just like, I'm on the site and I'm like, this is Myla. This is Myla. This is Myla. Like, they're, they've got that vibe going anyway. They're. They're on the money. They. They feel very now.
- [05:55]
A
Yeah, I'm. And I'm definitely a fan of the product. I mean, I have several knit polos from them exactly for that reason. Affordable, but still good quality. One thing they've done is I think they're pretty wide in terms of product. They sell lots of different kinds of stuff. They have denim, they have men's and women's. They've got like, like lots of different things. I wonder if they're going to keep trying to expand it to any new product categories. It seems like on their most recent earnings, the main point of expansion that they talked about was international, like trying to grow outside the US Which I think is certainly doable. But I think expanding into new categories is like, your investors always want that Obviously, because that's more addressable, market, more growth, all that kind of stuff. But it's not always the smartest move. So I wonder if there's any categories that they're not in that they're looking into.
- [06:40]
B
Yeah, one of the reports on the recent earnings talked about them expanding to wedding attire and baby clothing.
- [06:47]
A
Yes.
- [06:48]
B
I actually, like I went when I was on the site, I just did a quick skim. I mean, it's not apparent if that is still happening, that they're selling that. Like, I couldn't find it. I didn't search very hard. But maybe that's still happening. Maybe a growth opportunity for the future.
- [07:05]
A
Yeah, I think the wedding shop was pretty new. I remember hearing about or getting the pitch from them only a couple months ago. So international, I think, is a little bit harder just because, like, the US is kind of an insular market in a lot of ways and some things that will work in the US just will not work elsewhere. And I do think of Abercrombie as kind of a very American centric kind of brand. So I'll be curious to see where exactly, like what markets they're looking at and kind of how they approach them.
- [07:31]
B
When you go to the store, does it still smell like cologne or that that era is ober?
- [07:36]
A
You know, I have not been into a store in forever. I've only bought stuff online, so I don't even know. The website doesn't smell like anything. So maybe they should, they should look into that.
- [07:45]
B
These are our questions. I gotta know. Yeah, opposite.
- [07:48]
A
Let's talk about Fraser a little bit. So there's this ongoing drama, which I think Zofia and I talked about a couple weeks ago, between Fraser's group and Boohoo. Fraser owns, I think, 28% of boohoo. And Fraser's owner, Mike Ashley was recently fighting really hard to have himself installed as the new CEO of Boohoo. There was like, he like put himself forward quite aggressively and then did not get it. At the beginning of November, they appointed Dan Finley to the role instead. But this week, Mike Ashley launched another bid. This time he's urging the company Boohoo to oust co founder Mahmoud Khamani from as director of the company and replace him with, you guessed it, Mike Ashley. He seems really intent on getting himself into a leadership position at Boohoo. I mean, what, what do you make of that, Joe? Why do you think he's so intent? Clearly he's. He disagrees with the direction of the company and he's got a stake in it. So like he wants it to succeed but like I don't know. What do you make of his, his aggression here?
- [08:49]
B
It's very aggressive. It's wild. I didn't know that, you know there's campaigning to shareholders in this way that there's an open letter went out that said a simple choice, win with Mr. Ashley or lose with Mr. Kamani with this whole, with the whole reason, all the reasons why. I mean everything's about money. And we know that shares at Boohoo group are down 26% since the start of the year and they've, they've been met with all of the usual challenges where they saw great growth and hit, hit their stride during the pandemic when everything moved to E commerce and now, I mean supply chain issues I was reading about also high returns. All the competition I think with that competition has to do with is you know, they Boohoo groups. Brands are boohoo. Pretty Little Thing, Nasty Gal. All of these brands that were once the fast, fast fashion retailers and now they're contending with Shein and Temu. And I don't know that Fraser's group, who you know, obviously like they were caught up in the whole matches fashion like scooping it up and immediately folding it. But also they've got brands like not huge, not popular in the States, Jack Wills and Flannels. And I don't know that any of these leaders have leadership experience working with. I think that they need somebody who like knows supply chain and knows how to expedite if they do want to play. Unless Boohoo Group is going to have a total overhaul of their focus but like knows how to expedite but I and can maybe cut corners and figure out how to, how to compete with Shein because it's not happening. What do you think?
- [10:24]
A
No, I, I think you're right. Like that's the existential question for a lot of like fast fashion or, or like you said, what was once the fastest of fast fashion but now feels like kind of medium when you've got like the ultra ultra fast of, of Shein and Temu and how those companies kind of react is interesting to see. Some are like we're gonna go a little more upscale and distance ourselves. Others are like let's race to the bottom alongside Shein which seems like a losers game for sure. So I don't know how you can really compete with that. But it is interesting to see the way a lot of like what used to be the fastest parts of Fast fashion responding to the Even faster alternatives.
- [11:00]
B
Who's going to win? I mean, Mr. Ashley, I feel like he's going to take the reins. And poor Mr. Kymani, I mean, we don't know how this will play out, right? Like, we'll just wait and see. We'll just wait and see. I think we're going to have a story and we're going to talk about this for weeks to come.
- [11:16]
A
Yeah, I think so, too. One other thing I wanted to talk about and, like, maybe this is going to sound silly, but a simple choice. Win with Mr. Ashley or lose with Mr. Kamani. I was like, okay, this is the most Trump thing I've ever heard. And I do think, like, not that, like, not that business has ever been like a nice, cozy, fun place where everyone's polite. But I do feel like we're sort of like entering this era where, like, business leaders and politicians just kind of care less about, like, appearing nice. Elon Musk the other day, just tweeting straight up like, Jeff Bezos is an idiot or whatever he said. He said like, he was like, I heard a rumor that Jeff Bezos is, like, trying to do this or whatever. And they were going back and forth and it's. It feels like there's a. In politics and in business, there's much more abrasiveness. And like, I don't want to be one of those people who's like, everybody needs to be polite or whatever because, like, I know it's never really been like that, but it does feel like a lot of business leaders are just kind of care less about appearing to be nice people. They just, like, don't give a shit.
- [12:18]
B
Anymore and bringing their own, like, personal vendettas and issues into the, the public and into business. Like, it. There was a report and I'm sure you guys talked about it, but about how Kamani fellow and. And Ashley have, like, past beef due to a past business, I don't know, conflict. And so it just seems like that's held over. There's this. Something similar in this story that we're going to talk later about how these girls knew each other before and they didn't like each other and now. And now they're. There's a whole legal issue, but yeah, it's like separate business and personal. Okay.
- [12:55]
A
Yeah.
- [12:55]
B
That's all we ask.
- [12:57]
A
It's just funny to see a lot more just like abrasive, uncouth kind of talk, you know, I think. And Trump is like the king of like, no tact. Like, just the most insulting, threatening things all the time, and I feel like that's filtering out. So. But let's talk about this lawsuit because I think it's so. It's so fascinating. It's juicy in like a drama, gossipy kind of way. But I also just think it's super interesting from like a business perspective and what we talk about. But as you alluded to, there are two influencers. There was a great article in the verge about this. 2Amazon, specifically Amazon, like kind of creators. Alyssa Scheele and Sydney Gifford are their names. Both Amazon creators, both in a very similar kind of world and with very similar esthetics. Lots of beige and monochrome and home decor and like, clean girl is the term that they use and kind of like cover a lot of the same products. And their videos look very similar. One of these women, Sidney Gifford, is now suing Alyssa Shiel for copying her style of content. And the lawsuit alleges, like, copyright infringement. She wears her hair exactly the same way I do. She has a tattoo of a flower on her arm. And I also have a tattoo of a flower on my arm. And she recommends the same kinds of products and her videos look exactly the same as mine and that kind of stuff. And there's a really, the article goes really in depth on, like, how these two women know each other, they've met a couple times, and how they both kind of run in the same circles. I have so many opinions on why the lawsuit is, like, both completely stupid, but also says so much interesting stuff about, like, the influencer economy. But I will, I will let you go first. What was your take on kind of just reading through it?
- [14:40]
B
Oh, my God. I know. I had so many thoughts and opinions here with the woman who's suing is accusing the Alyssa Shield of like, she's painting her as this, like, single white female. Like, she got my same tattoo, she wears my same clothes. She, she dyed her hair after I dyed my hair, first of all. And then she. But she has many examples of posts that, that she allegedly copied, like 70 side by side, that have the same hair, the same background, the same color scheme. The reporter in the story went over and above, visited the homes of both. So interesting. Like, I had never heard that. This is a hashtag sad beige home. Apparently they use this and their homes are very, like, I would say hospital minimalist. Minimalist. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It just seemed clean and not at all, I don't know, homey or comfortable. Just clean and bare. Anyway, the one thing with this, if you have the same taste as somebody and the algorithm is going to pick up. Algorithms are impacting what we see. And. And I'm sure they're seeing each other's posts. I'm sure they're seeing other posts that look just like them. I'm going off the rails. But something that was interesting to me on this note, they're Amazon influencers. Okay. And I'm with Alyssa that pointed out that Amazon recommends products to feature the same products to everybody. So if I'm featuring the same products Amazon told me to, I'm taking Amazon's recommendation. It's not just like I'm borrowing necessarily from you, Sydney Nicole Gifford. So.
- [16:18]
A
Right.
- [16:19]
B
They get different incentives to feature the Amazon recommendations and such.
- [16:24]
A
You exactly nailed it. This is exactly what I was going to say. Even if one of them saw a video that the other made and then did the same thing, ultimately they are both, like, downstream of the source of these actual trends or images, which is the Amazon algorithm. Amazon is the one is like, making the stuff or the brands are. Amazon is telling its brands what to make based on what people are buying. Amazon is then telling the creators what to create based on what. What's selling. And, like, they're all just, like, receiving the same kind of stuff served up by the algorithm. So it is like, no coincidence at all that they kind of all look.
- [17:03]
B
Alike and they didn't start the sad beige home hashtag. So they're borrowing from somebody else no matter who they.
- [17:10]
A
Exactly. So even if she copied from her, Gifford did not invent having a beige house. Like, she did not invent wearing a, like, flowy white shirt.
- [17:19]
B
The reporter suggested they're all stealing from Kim Kardashian, Queen of beige.
- [17:23]
A
Right. Like a Kim Kardashian's home, like, which is like, that ultra austere, like, white and beige was probably an influence on them. Kim Kardashian probably took that from, you know, from other sources as well. So it's like you cannot claim to own the look. Really. And then there's a lot of further interesting stuff of like, well, what can an influencer claim to own? You could own your face, for example, but then that might protect you from, like, an AI company, like, using your actual face. But does it protect you from, like, another lady who also is, like, tan and has wavy hair? Like, do you own being a tan lady with wavy hair? Like, I don't think so. You know, so I think it's like she's claiming ownership to something that I don't think you can claim ownership to. But the other interesting thing is that it Brings forward the issue that there is not really like rules around being an influencer in general. There's some very, very loose rules around like saying when something sponsored content. But like, you know, people break those rules all the time and there's not really a mechanism enforce it. And one thing that is brought up in the story, and I've thought about a lot, is that influencers are kind of on their own. It's a very perilous job. You are at the mercy of the algorithm. You're at the mercy of your viewers who might, the algorithm might take them away and suddenly stop recommending you for no reason. And you have no clue why. The companies that you work with, I mean, if you're a single influencer and you're trying to negotiate a deal with Amazon, like all of Amazon, they are always going to get the better of you because they just have 1 billion times more leverage than you do. So and you're working on your own. A lot of times influencers are a company of one. You have no backing, like even models who I think are often exploited, frankly, because there's not a lot of protections. At least you have a modeling agency which can sometimes, you know, give some weight to. If you've got a bunch of models all negotiating together, that's more power than a single model negotiating on, on their own and influences. I feel like it's just, you're on your own. There's no influencer union. There's, I guess there's creator agencies or influencer agencies that might, that might help with that. But it does seem like a very isolating job and you're kind of just floating out there and hoping that the algorithm, like the algorithm could make you a star one day and then it, it takes it away the, the next day.
- [19:39]
B
It's so true. And on the same note, there was mention in the story about, and I, I, I think I've seen this conversation happening where if, if an influencer maybe complains about anything that has to do with their job or anything about their life, like they get the backlash of like, oh, poor baby, like they there, it's like their job is so pampered and easy that they don't have any right to like say anything negative, like calm down. So they're kind of, they can't, I don't know, they can't win. Speaking of their, their payment and working with the companies, there was a conversation during our recent beauty summit where somebody basically said, you know, we're all struggling, but influencers are also struggling more than like, we're hearing about. And so whatever. They come to you with your rate, it seems absurd, right? And everybody's like, yes, it's absurd. And they're like, give the offer them a fourth of it and they're going to take it. Oh, anyway, just interesting. I'm like, whoa.
- [20:34]
A
Well, that makes sense. I mean, the whole, like, algorithmic, like, world that we live in, which it does feel like algorithms kind of, like, rule everything, is just based on, like, random chance. It feels like, like random chance at first and then hopefully a snowball effect. Part of the way that algorithms work is they recommend stuff that's already popular. So if you're already popular, that's great. If you're not, you just have like the random chance of maybe the algorithm for some reason shows your video to a bunch of people. So you want as many opportunities as possible, and the when you do get one, it might be very few. So. So I think that makes sense that an influencer might ask for a ton because they're like, I don't know if I'm going to get another opportunity, but then if it's a fourth of that, they'll still take it because it's like, well, it's an opportunity.
- [21:19]
B
You're so right. Oh, my God. So many interesting elements of the story. I'm just going to bounce around. I have to call out that. It was also called out that, you know, they're fighting over who's the best curator of, like, Amazon crap. It was like, you're all promoting knockoff cheap shit, so who. Who cares, honestly?
- [21:38]
A
And there's not even, like, any element of taste, really. Like, they might hate me for saying that, but, like, the, you know, the one thing that I think a. A creator of that could claim to own is like, well, I've got, like, my sense of style, my sense of taste, but it's like, not really. You're just getting the spreadsheet from Amazon of popular products and then you're just running it down. You know, it's not even like you have some unique aesthetic that's like just you. Like, there's these two women in the story are two of hundreds who I'm sure have the exact same vibes, you know?
- [22:09]
B
Yes. Oh, my gosh, what an odd world. Like, the one is 24 and she's got her momager, like, pushing her to do things like running the show and running her business in the port. Like, I mean, they're not that different in age, but, like, it's like the 21 year old at it by herself, I'd be like, you're a bully.
- [22:26]
A
And also, one is. One is has two dogs and one has two cats. And I was, like, trying not to read any psychology into the cat owner versus the dog owner. But, I mean, the other thing is, like, the things that she claims, like, beyond just the aesthetics of the videos, where it's like her look is exactly like mine, and it's like she kind of just like, looks like a lot of women. They kind of, like, kind of looks like Kim Kardashian. She has a tattoo of a flower on her arm. I was like, you know what? I, me, Danny Parisi, I also have a tattoo of a flower on my arm in the exact same spot. I did not do it because I did not see any of these women's arms before I got it, like, five years ago. So, like, I don't know a lot of this stuff. I'm like, you can't claim to own. But I think because we live in a world where, like, buying stuff is, like, the main way people interact with the world, it's like you get really protective of the stuff that you buy, and you're like, no, no, no, this is my identity. And it's like, no, you're buying kind of the same stuff everybody else is buying. Like, it's not really that different.
- [23:26]
B
Totally.
- [23:26]
A
Ultimately, yes. Super interesting. But, like, I just thought we should talk about it, because influencers are a big part of both fashion and beauty. But then at the same time, there's such a wild west kind of world, and. Oh, and then last thing we should say about this is the precedent that this lawsuit could set. I don't think this woman has a case at all, personally, but if she were to be successful at all, I think that would be such a Pandora's box, because now anyone who was posting the same aesthetic before her could now sue her for copying that, you know, just feels like the. The entire influencer world does rely on, like, sort of doing the same thing. Like, because you want to get picked up by the algorithm and the algorithm serves what's popular, you kind of want to just do what's already popular. If people can own consumption habits, like, that just sets a really weird precedent. I feel like then it's like open season, and anybody can sue anyone for their TikToks. I don't know. That just doesn't seem like a feasible reality.
- [24:26]
B
I agree. Like, copying, unfortunately, is what makes this world go around, go around. And, like, literally, how many of us said demure? How many of us Are saying suspect says la, la, la, whatever that the current thing is. Do you get that one, Daniel? Suspect?
- [24:41]
A
No, I have no idea what you're.
- [24:42]
B
Talking about, but I believe you. It's. It's the new thing, but demure.
- [24:46]
A
I know. I know that one.
- [24:47]
B
Yes. But, yeah, I mean, this is why everything is blanding and everything is looking the same. Like, this is just the state of the world. I'm gonna say, deal with it, girl.
- [24:57]
A
And it goes beyond fashion. Like, I think this is why a lot of movies are the same. This is why it's like every 80s movie is getting rebooted six times. Because it's like, we already know it's popular and that's a safer bet. Just feels, you know, same with music. Like, I was just reading an article in Hearing Things, which is a great new music blog that split off from Pitchfork about, like, how hard it is for new musicians to get picked up because the record labels are like, they want you to already be popular. They want you to go on TikTok and, like, do a little dance to your music to, like, hopefully make it go viral. And, like, a lot of musicians are like, I don't want to do that. Like, I just want to make music. But it kind of feels like if you're not getting picked up by the algorithm and if you're not serving the algorithm or, like, following the algorithm, you're just, like, out of luck, which feels really depressing.
- [25:47]
B
There's a meme going around, and it's like, Jerry Seinfeld. There's a scene from Jerry Seinfeld, and the copy says something like, when you're a brand founder, like, and you're forced to make content, like, to keep things moving, exciting. And it shows Jerry, and he's like, they're sitting at the diner doing nothing in the middle of the day, and he's like, what are we doing? Is this our life?
- [26:08]
A
It's true.
- [26:09]
B
It's so.
- [26:10]
A
Yeah. I feel like there's. Every job now comes with a secondary job of also, you have to be an influencer. It feels like, man. Also, I love that you called the text of the meme the copy. That's great.
- [26:22]
B
I don't know the link, though. Well, whatever. Danny, you do not know Suspect Trent.
- [26:28]
A
No, I think that's great. I'm going to start using that, too. Okay. I think that's all the time we have, but Happy Thanksgiving. Jill, thank you for doing this podcast with me.
- [26:37]
B
Happy Thanksgiving, y'all. Black Friday. Hope you're going shopping.
- [26:40]
A
Yes, we will be. Definitely talking about Black Friday stuff. I'm working on something about Black Friday Today on Wednesday. And then also after Black Friday, we will I'm sure we'll do some postmortems on how it actually all went down. But for those of you listening, don't forget to give us a rating and a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. That helps us out so much. And don't forget to subscribe to the glossy podcast because you'll hear interviews with industry insiders every Wednesday and weekend review episodes with me every Friday. Jill, do we know who our next guest is?
- [27:07]
B
We do. We have a two for one we just recorded this morning. It's the team that is working with Tiger woods at Sunday Red to create his first shoe post, Nike. And it was so fun and I'm a Tiger fan, so check it out. The shoe comes out on the 4th of December, the same day as the podcast, so it'll be big.
- [27:26]
A
Subscribe to the podcast and you will hear that. And until next time, thank you for listening.