Big goals, no pressure: Planning your creative year with The Good Ship Illustration

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Big Goals, No Pressure: Planning Your Creative Year with The Good Ship Illustration"

Released on January 3, 2025, "The Good Ship Illustration" episode titled "Big Goals, No Pressure: Planning Your Creative Year" delves into the intricate balance between setting ambitious goals and maintaining a stress-free creative journey. Hosts Helen Stephens, Katie Chappell, and Tanya Willis share their personal experiences, offer practical advice, and engage in insightful discussions to help illustrators navigate their careers with clarity and confidence.

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1. Welcoming the New Year with Goal Setting

The episode kicks off with Tanya extending warm New Year wishes and introducing the central theme: goals, planning, and setting intentions. She emphasizes that while goal-setting is often associated with the start of the year, its principles are applicable year-round.

Tanya (00:23):
"We’re here to talk about goals, planning, setting intentions… it’s really exciting to do it in January as well."

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2. Hosting the Planning Party

Helen announces an upcoming Planning Party scheduled for January 16 at 0:30 UK time via Zoom, exclusively for their mailing list subscribers. This event aims to foster a community-driven approach to annual planning.

Helen (00:42):
"If you're on our mailing list, you'll get the invite to the Zoom call."

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3. Personal Experiences with Goal Setting

The trio delves into their varied relationships with goal-setting:

• Tanya shares her fluctuating stance, oscillating between setting numerous goals and opting out to manage personal responsibilities, such as caring for her baby.

  Tanya (01:08):
  "I've swiveled between setting loads of goals and being like, don't make me set any goals."

• Helen reflects on past rigorous goal-setting leading to burnout and her subsequent embrace of a more relaxed approach without stringent plans.

  Helen (02:29):
  "I will not be making any plans. My biggest plan is no."

• Katie highlights the challenge of balancing ambition with well-being, advocating for setting manageable and enjoyable goals.

  Katie (03:11):
  "It's just finding that balance… having the goal of not doing anything is a fabulous goal."

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4. Setting Intentions vs. Rigid Goals

The conversation shifts to distinguishing between intentions and rigid goal-setting. Setting intentions provides a flexible framework that accommodates personal growth without the pressure of unattainable targets.

Tanya (03:47):
"Setting intentions is a nice feeling. It’s almost like a framework."

Helen (04:06):
"Have you still got your piece of paper that we made at the planning party up on your wall?"
Helen shares how a visual representation of her intentions continues to guide her throughout the year.

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5. Creative Ideas and Dream Projects

The hosts brainstorm whimsical ideas, such as embarking on a camper van tour to meet fellow illustrators across the country. This segment underscores the importance of community and creative exploration.

Helen (06:43):
"We should hire some sort of van and we should drive around meeting some illustrators."

Katie (07:25):
"Good ship on tour. It'd be a bit like Spinal Tap."

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6. Listener Q&A: Practical Illustration Tips

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to answering listener-submitted questions. Key topics include:

a. Combining Backgrounds with Picture Book Characters

Helen provides strategies for integrating backgrounds without overshadowing characters, emphasizing simplicity and focus.

Helen (08:09):
"You really don't need to do that. Go to a book workshop, look at all the different backgrounds… edit it down."

b. Approaching Prospective Agents

Katie advises illustrators to personalize their inquiries to agents, avoiding generic emails and ensuring alignment with the agent's portfolio.

Katie (12:09):
"Just do it. Don’t put other people in the email."

Helen (13:35):
"You send some samples. They can look at your samples and understand what your work is."

c. Posting Illustrations on Instagram Amid AI Concerns

The hosts discuss the dilemma of sharing work publicly versus protecting it from AI harvesting, ultimately encouraging artists to continue sharing their creations despite uncertainties.

Tanya (14:44):
"It's a catch-22. If you don't show your work, you'll never be an illustrator."

Helen (16:26):
"You've got to put yourself out there. You just have to."

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7. Client Management and Preventing Overruns

Tanya and Katie offer insights into effective client management, emphasizing honesty about available time, time-blocking, and setting realistic expectations to prevent project overruns.

Tanya (16:33):
"Being really honest with yourself about how much time you do have… overestimating how long it's going to take for each client."

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8. Overcoming Creative Overwhelm

The hosts tackle the common issue of being overwhelmed by numerous creative ideas. They suggest practical methods like "parking" ideas to maintain focus and prevent mental clutter.

Helen (17:22):
"Just pick the idea that seems the most exciting and only work on that. Put the others aside once they're written on a piece of paper."

Tanya (18:20):
"It's like having ghosts. You can go away now and the ghost goes away."

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9. Encouraging Creative Practice

Helen stresses the importance of regular sketching without overthinking, promoting a mindset of continuous creativity and improvement.

Helen (18:06):
"Just get out with your sketch… once you've done a few drawings, you've got your drawing eyes on."

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10. Final Thoughts and Community Engagement

Wrapping up, the hosts invite listeners to submit more questions via their podcast platform, fostering an ongoing dialogue within their creative community.

Katie (20:37):
"Get them in to hear them."

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Notable Quotes

• Tanya (01:08):
  "I've swiveled between setting loads of goals and being like, don't make me set any goals."

• Helen (02:29):
  "My biggest plan is no."

• Katie (03:11):
  "It's just finding that balance… having the goal of not doing anything is a fabulous goal."

• Tanya (14:44):
  "It's a catch-22. If you don't show your work, you'll never be an illustrator."

• Helen (18:06):
  "Just get out with your sketch… once you've done a few drawings, you've got your drawing eyes on."

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Conclusion

"Big Goals, No Pressure: Planning Your Creative Year" serves as an invaluable resource for illustrators seeking to balance ambition with well-being. Through candid discussions, shared experiences, and actionable advice, Helen, Katie, and Tanya empower their listeners to set meaningful intentions, manage their creative processes effectively, and foster a supportive artistic community.

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For more insights and episodes, visit The Good Ship Illustration and join their thriving online community.

Transcript

[Tanya]

Happy New Year from the good ship illustration. We are hopefully arriving in your ear, your earballs, your ear holes at the start of the year, but if it's later in the year, just ignore that. We're going to talk about goals, planning, setting intentions, and I think that's applicable all year round, but just. It's really exciting to do it in January as well.

[Helen]

Yeah, we're going to have a planning party, aren't we? 16th of January, is that right? 16th of January at half one. If you're on our mailing list, you'll get the invite to the Zoom call.

[Tanya]

Yeah, it's half one UK time, so I think that's early in the morning. If you're in America, middle of the night, early morning. Anyway, you'll figure it out. You can do time zones. You're clever, but trust you.

[Katie]

Where are we with that goal planning idea this year?

[Helen]

Yeah.

[Katie]

Is it a good thing or a bad thing?

[Tanya]

It's a mixture, isn't it? I think you've got to know what works for your brain because I've kind of swiveled between the two, between being like, I set loads of goals and I'm gonna smash all the goals to being like, don't make me set any goals. I've got a small baby, I can't even hoover the house, like. So that was me maybe for the past few years, but this year I feel more goal goalie.

[Helen]

I don't know how you do you.

[Tanya]

I feel more goalie, but I think still in a loose. A loose way, like.

[Helen]

Yeah, I don't know whether I do. Maybe loose goals with no urgency about them would be good, but for years, yeah, I was really pro goals. I would always have a list of books that I was gonna. I would always know in advance what books I had to illustrate over the next year. And so they'd be in my plan, but then there would be, well, what I want to do personally, you know, I would really set goals, sort out my website, all that kind of stuff. But yeah, the last, I think a couple of years ago when I made the picture book course and was still doing the same amount of picture books as I'd ever done, it felt like I ran a marathon at full speed. Like it was a sprint. And so it was brilliant. It was just the most amazing year, but so exhausting. And so last year when we had our planning party, I was very anti planning. I was like, no plans except for jigsaws. I will not be making any plans. My biggest plan is no.

[Katie]

Which was in Itself a plan.

[Helen]

It was.

[Katie]

You stuck to it that valiantly.

[Helen]

I stuck to it. I've really, really stuck to it. I've had a very, very nice time just taking things more slowly and it's been brilliant. And I'm not sure I'll ever go back to super Helen sprinting through a career again.

[Katie]

Yeah. Suffering endless migraines of being super active. I mean, you really, really worked so hard that year.

[Helen]

Yeah.

[Katie]

And then.

[Helen]

So then I've just been walking for the last year and I've really enjoyed that walking. I don't think I'm ready for goals again. Yeah. I set some intentions of things that will make me happy in the year ahead. That would be nice.

[Katie]

But you're still working, aren't you?

[Helen]

Still working, but I'm working like a normal person.

[Katie]

Yeah, exactly. It's just finding that balance, isn't it? I don't think you can't go hard year after year and maybe having the goal of not doing anything is about. Is a fabulous goal. Obviously you got to do something and you need to bring the money in and find a way to go a bit slower. But I was always anti goals just in that stupid. Like, I'm not having a goal, I don't like them. But this year I feel really goal orientated. I've got. I can't wait for the planning party, but I'll probably be completely off kilter as everyone goes. Yeah. Let's just not plan this year.

[Helen]

I'll be like.

[Katie]

But I've got some plans. I've really got some real ones this time.

[Tanya]

I like that thing. So like setting intentions. That's. It's a nice feeling. It's almost like a framework, isn't it? Because I've loved it in the past when I've drawn a picture and included visual reminders of all the things that I kind of want to aim for and ways I want to feel and how I want to approach the year. Because then to look back on it is really exciting because you can see. Oh, I did that.

[Helen]

Oh, that's. Have you still got your piece of paper that we made at the planning party up on your wall? I've still got my. It's stuck to a box of pencils and it's still there. And every now and again I have a look at it. I've managed quite well with it. Most of the things I've done, some of them just look like random sprouting to an idiot. What did I write that for? But some of them are good.

[Katie]

I love the planning Party because it makes it doable and makes it human sized. Instead of that, go get them. Which is kind of too much and overwhelming and you can't control everything. But as long as you get some of your own goals in there and at the end of the year you can say, I did at least three or four of them, that's a win.

[Tanya]

Yeah.

[Katie]

Having some. Being able to exercise some choice is a real privilege. Feel aware when you're kind of talking about goals. Some people are like, I've just got to go to work every day and do the same thing.

[Tanya]

I saw a brilliant thing this week and it was. It was like a prompt. So the prompt was, I know I'm being successful when. And I was like, oh, that's exciting. Because then the things were like, I wake up and I can say, what do I feel like doing today? Or I don't have to travel for work, Or I only travel for fun, like little things. And it was just like that mindset. Like just thinking of it from that perspective was really interesting.

[Katie]

Yeah, that's a good way to start the goal planning.

[Helen]

I really like goal setting in that way. Like, I think just before lockdown, I had the goal of. One of my goals was to see as many of my old friends as possible that year, to make the effort and go and travel and see them. And in that year I saw loads of people that hadn't seen for sort of 10 years or more. And that was amazing. So they don't all have to be work goals.

[Katie]

That's my 60th birthday plan, is to go and spend lots of time with friends because no point having a giant party. Well, you can have a giant party, but if you get everyone to come from all over the world and then you just stand there dancing to all your favourite songs, which is what I would do, and not talking.

[Helen]

I thought that was the plan. Is that not the plan?

[Katie]

Well, it kind of is the plan. That's a local party.

[Tanya]

I'm disappointed now. I wanted to meet everybody you'd ever met.

[Helen]

Me too. It was such a good party. It's gonna be a huge party.

[Katie]

No, you're coming with me to go meet all my friends and just every weekend spend a nice time with all the best people that you've known in your life rather than squidge it into a party and then think I did a really bad job of that as a whole.

[Helen]

That's true. Because you don't get to talk to each person individually. Yeah, Visit them all.

[Tanya]

Bit stressful. Like when you get married and you don't see anyone because you're too busy getting married.

[Helen]

I have a dream for the. For the. Yeah. I've just took in what you said. Sorry, I was looking at you while you were speaking, but I was thinking about something else. Sorry, Katie. That's good.

[Tanya]

I think I know what your dream is.

[Helen]

Do you?

[Tanya]

Is it the caravan dream?

[Helen]

Sort of.

[Tanya]

Yes. Maybe it's not, darling.

[Helen]

I. I think the good shape. We should hire some sort of van and we should drive around meeting some illustrators.

[Katie]

Yeah, let's go meet.

[Helen]

Wouldn't that be brilliant?

[Katie]

That would be.

[Helen]

So a camper van and we have.

[Katie]

One of those VW vans each because I keep entering all the electric competitions. Yeah. Off grid VW vans just in case do that.

[Helen]

Imagine, please make.

[Tanya]

We could flags, Helen, because we could have each 60 flag for Tanya and have that streaming on top of the camper van. And then maybe El. Could we have like the good ship illustration.

[Helen]

Oh, imagine driving right down the motorway in convoy with the good ship illustration.

[Katie]

Good ship on tour. It'd be a bit like Spinal Tap.

[Tanya]

Can we go to Cornwall?

[Helen]

Yeah, we can visit some of the exciting illustration does a Hartlepool College of Art has an illustration festival.

[Katie]

Does it?

[Helen]

What other ones are there? Scooby have their big illustrations. I was gonna say symposium conference. I don't know.

[Katie]

One day we will do it.

[Helen]

Katie looks like she's gonna yawn now. I think that bit wasn't a good idea.

[Katie]

Should we do some questions before we start rambling into.

[Helen]

Oh, we have got some questions.

[Katie]

We're gonna do quick fire questions now. Yes. So if the answer to your well thought out question seems a bit fun fast, please forgive us because we want to answer lots of them and keep it simple. Any tips on how to combine backgrounds with picture book characters? Helen? Your starter potential.

[Helen]

That's so hard. But you know, the main thing I think is that often people think they imagine backgrounds picture books scary because I've got to draw everything. I've got to draw really good. Be able to draw really good. Really complicated backgrounds. And I don't think that's the case if you're. There are so many picture books with barely any backgrounds. If you imagine Maisie the Mouse, they are just mostly plain, bright coloured backgrounds. Might be like a very graphic image of a staircase or a potty or something. Lots of picture books like that. Or you can go full on and do a Brian Wildsmith gorgeous field of flowers background. But I think if those complicated backgrounds that jump into your head when people say backgrounds is what you imagine, you really don't need to do that. Go to a book workshop, look at all the different backgrounds on there and don't set yourself too big a task too far away from what you do. Naturally.

[Katie]

It's good advice. Just edit it down, isn't it, really?

[Helen]

Yeah, it's like that. You always say, Tanya, about when you're drawing from life, squint. Because then you really edit out anything you don't really need. You get proportions. Nice. Same with backgrounds. If you think, well, what's essential to the story? So in this. In this bit of the story, I don't know, maybe we're talking about potty training or something. Maybe you only need a potty and the edge of the bath with a duck or a, you know, a bath toy. It's no more complicated than that. You could draw some lines on the wall that indicate tiles.

[Katie]

It's much easier suffocate your character, can't you? If your background is too full on the aim of your. The idea behind the image is drowned and the character is drowned with too much going on. There's no sort of physical space and distance between the background of the person. Yeah, too much will just.

[Helen]

I think there's some really nice, easy tricks for solving those things as well. When I was trying to tackle this, like if a publisher would ask me for something quite complicated that involved a quite complicated background and it was necessary for the story, I used to really struggle with it. And then I got absolutely obsessed with Jean Jacques Sompe, the French illustrator, who does lots of. He did lots of New York, the New Yorker covers, and he. He works in watercolor with a dip pen, which is similar to the way I work. So I. I think that's why I got so obsessed with him. And if he had a really complicated background, like, there are some. There's one really famous one of a bicycle shop, and there's either a little boy or a man with a bicycle in the middle of a bicycle shop. And there's rows and rows and rows of bicycles on the walls, stacked above each other. So it's really, really complicated. What he does, really cleverly, is all of the line drawings, all the complicated line drawings of bicycles are all around the side. And then there's a bit of a gap around the main character with no colour in it, no line in it. Gap, like breathing space. And then the way he wants you to look, where your eye is being drawn is this nice little drawing of the boy or the man with his bicycle in the middle. And you Know where to look and that enables you to be really fussy and complicated with the rest of the drawing. But as long as your eye knows where to, you can be really clever with that.

[Katie]

You can also just use line, can't you? Like soft line or light line.

[Helen]

Yeah. I try and hold my pen lighter if I'm doing a background. So I hold the dip pen looser in my fingers so that it's a looser line and it's not as thick.

[Katie]

That's a good trick. The volume turned down on the background and the volume turned up on the subject. So like you say, it's where you're teaching the eye where to look and creating physical space between subject in the background.

[Helen]

There's a lot more about this in the course. Yeah.

[Katie]

Picture book.

[Helen]

Yeah, It's a whole thing.

[Tanya]

It's a whole thing.

[Helen]

That's a quick fire thing. Yeah, exactly.

[Katie]

A whole piece about background alone.

[Helen]

Yeah.

[Tanya]

Okay, what's next?

[Katie]

Tips on how to produce. How to approach a prospective agent.

[Tanya]

Do it.

[Helen]

Yeah, that's it. Just do it. Yeah.

[Katie]

And also don't see. See them. So don't put other people in the email.

[Helen]

Who would people put in? What do you mean?

[Katie]

Well, lots of people will go through a list of agents and put. Dear sir, some people put the seat.

[Helen]

Oh, they put lots of agents. They cc in a whole load of agents in one email.

[Katie]

The agent will bid that email. Then sometimes they just write a blank one and just change the name on the deer. But no reference to the actual agency.

[Tanya]

You've got to think like the agent. Like, what would you like to receive? Would you like to receive a copy paste generic inquiry, or would you like to receive one where they've actually researched to the agent who you are as an agent, why they really want to work with you, specifically why they think you'd be the best agent for them.

[Katie]

They said, look for an agency that looks like your kind of people visually work wise. But make sure they haven't got one of you. They need to be missing you so that you can offer something that you do specifically. Like whatever food and drink you do really well or portraits or maps or whatever. So look for someone who's got your vibe but they don't have one of.

[Helen]

You and they don't need you to describe your work because they're visual people. So you send some samples. They can look at your samples and understand what your work is. You don't need to write a letter that says, my work has a romantic, ethereal quality. You don't need to Write any of that. That was just wasted words.

[Katie]

Agents have said they're just like one paragraph. I'm based xyz. This is where I live. This is my work. Oh, and also check what their submission guidelines are because nearly every agency has a totally different submission guideline. So don't just bung a load of JPEGs.

[Helen]

Also, I completely ignored all the submission guidelines. Completely. When I was looking for a publisher, I got the Writers and artist yearbook where it said no submissions. I'm like, right, I'll send them something.

[Tanya]

As soon as Tanya said that, I.

[Helen]

Was also, don't do it, Rebel.

[Katie]

Helen.

[Tanya]

Tanya says, read the rules. Helen says, don't.

[Helen]

How did they know whether they wanted to see my work? If they just write in the book we don't want to see, they might love it. So I just sent it. I'm not saying that it worked.

[Tanya]

I mean, it must have done you published.

[Helen]

I don't remember whether I ended up being published by any of those people, but I just. I just ignored that.

[Katie]

They were probably like, I wish I hadn't put that in the artist writer's new yearbook because I'm not getting any.

[Helen]

Letters to anyone knows that it says that. Yeah, it's true.

[Katie]

Next question. Is it safe to post illustrations on Instagram where AI has access to them?

[Tanya]

Oh, dear. Well, there's that thing where you can apparently go on and tell Meta not to harvest your stuff for AI, but.

[Helen]

Then go in your settings. But does it work?

[Tanya]

Yeah. People in different countries saying, it's not available. I remember Australian people messaging me saying, oh, it doesn't work for me. And then obviously there's the whole trust thing. Like, does that really work?

[Helen]

I don't know.

[Katie]

You can. Well, there's going to be some opt out in. If you go onto the site haveibeentrained.com sign up with them, which if you fancy it and your nerves can take it. You can actually see if you. If the AI bots have been trained on your website.

[Helen]

Really?

[Katie]

A few years back, yeah.

[Tanya]

Wow.

[Katie]

And literally to warn you, most people who've got websites will have a version of their work that's been AI trained, but that's normal. They might have had a couple of cracks at trying to be you and then given up and thought, I can't do it. But now the people who. I think it's called spawning. So the people who set up haveibeentrained.com they are developing a software which will apparently stop them, stop the AI bots being trained on you. But kind of if you don't show your work, you'll never be an illustrator. So there's catch 22.

[Tanya]

Yeah. It's like looking at the pros and cons, isn't it? Because even sharing your work AI aside, a human can copy your ideas, but then it's. If you don't share your ideas, you're not sharing your ideas. So you're just going to make yourself tiny and invisible just in case somebody steals your stuff. I know it's a imperfect answer, but I would say it's just post.

[Helen]

It's the same when people worry about sending publishers samples of their work. They worry that if they send the samples or the picture book idea, the publisher will go, oh, great idea, we'll get somebody else to do it. It's so unlikely. And if you don't send them it, how are you ever going to get in there in the first place? You've got to put yourself out there. You just have to.

[Katie]

I'd love to hear your tips on client management to Preempt overrun. That'd be a nice situation to be in, wouldn't it?

[Tanya]

It's tricky. Yeah. I think looking in advance and being really honest with yourself about how much time you do have and almost time blocking it into your calendar and also overestimating how long it's going to take for each client.

[Katie]

Yeah, things go wrong.

[Tanya]

And imagining you've got less time than you do because you don't want to be working back to back, back to back. You want time off as well.

[Helen]

Scheduled wide margins.

[Tanya]

Yeah.

[Katie]

I think we did go into depth on this on a previous podcast, so I think we did a whole podcast about it.

[Tanya]

Yeah, I think we might have done. And it's definitely in the business course.

[Katie]

Yeah. And this was. The podcast was about three or four months ago. So if you have a quick route through the podcast bag, you'll find it.

[Helen]

Should we do one more question? Oh, there's so many. What should we read?

[Katie]

You liked how to deal with the overwhelming choice of things to draw and work on.

[Helen]

Oh, yeah, I do like that because I do find I have so many ideas that I know that if I try and implement all of them, I will go insane and I've got to work more slowly and calm down. So, yeah, I like the idea of making a list, like the list of things that you. That you've got excited about and you'd like to start on and then, yeah, just, you know, pick the idea that seems the most exciting and only work on that. Put the others aside once they're written On a piece of paper. They don't keep popping into your brain all the time and annoying and dragging you off in another direction. Stick it on your wall for a while while you concentrate on one thing.

[Katie]

Like Katie's car park.

[Helen]

Yeah, Katie's car park idea. Exactly. Yeah.

[Tanya]

Yeah. Have a car park. Park your ideas and then they can relax because they're not being ignored. Maybe it's like ghosts. You know when people exercise a house and they're like, we hear you. You could go away now and the ghost goes away. Yeah, that's it. Idea ghosts.

[Helen]

It's hard. She's saying how to choose what to draw. I'm just thinking about maybe if you think too hard about what to draw, you end up drawing nothing. So just get out with your sketch. Get a sketchbook out and draw literally what is in front of you, even if it looks unappealing. Because once you've done a few drawings and you've got your drawing eyes on, you've got your drawing hat on and you're into it, all of a sudden, whatever is in front of you, it just looks gorgeous when you draw it. You just need to make that start. Even if the first few drawings are rubbish, even if you're drawing a subject you don't want to draw. Just start somewhere. Yeah.

[Katie]

And don't avoid. You would probably disagree, Helen. Do all the stuff you really like. Yeah. And then later on, if you're stuck with the same subject and you're avoiding everything else, go and do the things you're avoiding as well. Because you might just be singing the same song over and over.

[Helen]

Oh, that's so true. That's so true.

[Katie]

Give yourself some challenges.

[Tanya]

Yeah, that can be really helpful when you're starting out. You know, like inktober prompts and things. It's a. It's a double edged sword. Sometimes those prompts are so stressful because you've got to do one every day. But if you're starting out and you've got lots of time and you're really excited and motivated and you're just like, what should I draw? It's like somebody tells you what to draw every day.

[Katie]

Yeah. And it stops that 20 minute faffing around as you wander around the house, put your coat on and think, should I go out? No, I won't. It's a bit cold. I'll sit back in, open a cupboard, close a cupboard.

[Tanya]

One of my favorite drawing times was when I was traveling with my sketchbook and just drawing where I was because I felt. It feels like mindfulness almost because you're sitting really looking at where you are, really drawing it. And then when you look back on your drawings, you can remember the smells and the temperature it was.

[Helen]

And way better than photos for that. We just went to Iceland and that and I took sketchbook with me and was thinking, oh, I'll go out drawing, I'll draw in Reykjavik, I'll draw down at the harbour where the ships are and everything. But when I got there, all I felt like doing is drawing in the warmth of the hotel. And so I just did drawings of like around the hotel and my daughter sat looking at her phone and when we went for meals at the table and did really domestic, low level stuff, nothing to do with the bigger city we were in, but actually it felt more like a diary. And if I really enjoyed doing that. So I took the pressure off myself. Even though I do like sitting in the cold to draw and drawing in the rain. I just decided I wasn't up for it and just drew all the nice indoors warm stuff.

[Katie]

That's serious cold. That would have taken you way down.

[Helen]

You could barely breathe when you got down to the harbour, it was so cold cold, it was painful to breathe in.

[Tanya]

Thank you for all your questions. If you've got more questions as well, we've got a thing on our. If you go on the Good Chip Illustration podcast, there's a big button and you can submit your questions there.

[Katie]

I'd forgotten. That is so brilliant. Oh, we're going to harvest so many good questions. Yeah, get them in to hear them.

[Helen]

Lovely.

[Katie]

Okay, bye.

[Helen]

Bye. Bye.