Get your illustration work noticed by people who actually want to buy it.

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Good Ship Illustration – "Get Your Illustration Work Noticed by People Who Actually Want to Buy It"

Release Date: October 16, 2024

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Introduction

In this episode of The Good Ship Illustration, hosts Helen Stephens, Katie Chappell, and Tania Willis delve into effective strategies for illustrators and image-makers to have their work recognized by genuine buyers. Drawing from their extensive collective experience, they explore avenues such as online shops, social media marketing, product diversification, pricing strategies, and in-person sales at fairs and pop-up events.

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1. Building and Managing an Online Shop

Helen shares her firsthand experience with running an online shop, emphasizing both the potential and the challenges involved.

• Revenue and Effort: Helen states, “I had an online shop for a few years and it was brilliant. It wasn't just a hobby, it did make money” (00:58). She mentions earning approximately £11,000 annually but highlights the significant workload required to maintain it.

• Importance of Social Media and Newsletters: Consistency in marketing was crucial. Helen notes, “It was worth it… I had to keep on top of it all the time” (00:58). The synergy between Instagram and newsletters was pivotal, as Katie adds, “Because I always think emails sell much” (03:23).

• Collaborative Efforts: The shop was a joint venture, with Helen handling the marketing while Gerry focused on creating high-ticket items like whale prints. Helen explains, “We sold the majority of Gerry's work” (02:14).

• Scaling Challenges: Managing multiple projects led Helen to prioritize, ultimately resulting in closing the shop. She reflects, “I stopped doing it because I... had to decide which things were a priority” (00:58).

Key Takeaways:

• An online shop can be a lucrative additional income stream but demands consistent marketing efforts.
• Building a dedicated social media following and leveraging newsletters are essential for driving sales.
• Collaboration and clear division of labor can ease the operational burden.

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2. Diversifying Product Offerings

The hosts discuss the benefits and pitfalls of expanding product lines beyond original artwork.

Katie shares her success with pre-selling calendars, which allowed her to avoid overproduction and manage inventory effectively.

• Pre-selling Model: “I created calendars... people would pre order them and then it meant that I only printed as many as I'd sold” (04:37). This approach ensured minimal waste and provided a steady income stream.

• Collaborative Packaging: Katie involved her husband in the packing process, making it a collaborative and enjoyable task: “I roped in Cameron, my husband to help me pack them up” (05:53).

Tanya highlights the challenges of mass-produced items like phone cases due to environmental concerns and quality control issues. She advocates for practical products that complement the artwork, such as planners and cards.

• Product Practicality: “You harnessed your art to a practical product so people can persuade themselves this is… useful” (06:04).

• Quality and Affordability Balance: Discussion around maintaining the value of high-end products while offering more affordable options to attract a broader audience.

Key Takeaways:

• Diversifying products can open additional revenue streams but requires careful planning regarding production and inventory.
• Practical, lower-cost products can make art accessible without devaluing high-end originals.
• Collaboration in production and packaging can streamline operations and enhance enjoyment.

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3. Navigating Online Marketplaces: Etsy and Beyond

The conversation shifts to selling art on platforms like Etsy and the intricacies involved.

Katie recounts her experience with Etsy, finding the fees and logistical challenges deterrents: “For me... the fees that Etsy took were high… an expensive hobby” (05:07).

Tanya discusses selling prints specific to cultural events, leveraging niche markets to drive sales without heavy marketing: “People are actually searching something like map of Hong Kong or Chinese New Year” (06:56).

• Shipping Challenges: High postage costs and the fragility of prints present significant hurdles. Tanya elaborates on the difficulties of ensuring safe delivery: “Mailers, mailing roles are difficult because your work is going to be all springy” (07:00).

• Storefront Alternatives: Helen and Tanya mention Print Space as a solution for selling art prints without handling the physical distribution: “Print Space… will promote your artwork as well” (12:49).

• Effective Pricing: Emphasizing the need to price products appropriately by accounting for all costs, including materials and time: “Price up… the packaging, the postage, the cost of making the thing and then your time as well” (19:37).

Key Takeaways:

• Online marketplaces like Etsy offer exposure but come with high fees and logistical challenges.
• Niche markets can be leveraged to sell specific types of art with less need for extensive marketing.
• Utilizing services like Print Space can simplify the selling process by handling production and distribution.

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4. Pricing Strategies for Illustrators

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around finding the right pricing strategy to balance accessibility and value.

Tanya references mentor Kerry Hand's advice on offering more affordable art versions to sustain income: “Make a smaller, more affordable version of your work so that people can buy into it” (16:15).

Helen and Katie discuss the importance of valuing time and production costs appropriately. Katie advises, “Don't price things based on what you think is expensive, because the people who are buying from you have a lot” (18:02).

• High vs. Low Price Points: The debate centers around whether to offer high-priced originals or lower-priced items to reach a broader audience without devaluing the original work.

• Sustainability: Ensuring that pricing covers all costs and time investment is crucial for sustaining the business.

Key Takeaways:

• Pricing should reflect the value of the artwork while considering production costs and time.
• Offering a range of price points can make art accessible without undermining the value of original pieces.
• Understanding your target audience's willingness to pay is essential for effective pricing.

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5. Selling In-Person: Fairs and Pop-Up Shops

The hosts explore the benefits of selling art directly to consumers through fairs, markets, and pop-up events.

Tanya shares her excitement about the Glasgow Illustrators Fair, noting the high volume of sales and the vibrant atmosphere: “Each illustrator's stall was three deep in people grabbing at prints” (20:00).

Helen recounts a successful pop-up shop experience where they created a buzz by involving the community: “We put all our stuff from the shop in There. It was brilliant because there was a real buzz about it” (21:34).

• Event Planning: Hosting personalized events, such as home sales with refreshments, can create a welcoming environment and drive sales: “Set up your own thing. Invite the people” (22:17).

• Logistical Considerations: The physical demands of attending fairs, including managing large quantities of products and coordinating sales logistics.

Key Takeaways:

• In-person events like fairs and pop-up shops can generate substantial sales and build community engagement.
• Successful events require thorough planning, effective marketing, and efficient management of inventory and sales processes.
• Creating a memorable and enjoyable experience for attendees can enhance sales and brand loyalty.

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6. Overcoming Challenges in Art Sales

The hosts address common obstacles illustrators face when trying to sell their work.

Helen discusses the struggle with low-priced items on platforms like Etsy potentially undermining higher-priced originals: “They’re putting them for 10, 15 pounds. It’s way too cheap and it pulls the whole market down” (19:19).

Katie emphasizes the importance of not underpricing products to maintain the perceived value: “Packging, I think that's really important to actually really Price up” (19:37).

• Quality Control: Ensuring that products meet quality standards to maintain customer satisfaction and uphold the artist's reputation.

• Managing Returns: The complexity of handling returns, especially with delicate items like prints and cards, which can incur additional costs and logistical challenges.

Key Takeaways:

• Maintaining appropriate pricing is essential to preserve the value of original artwork.
• Quality control and efficient handling of returns are critical to sustaining customer satisfaction and business reputation.
• Artists must navigate the balance between accessibility and exclusivity to successfully market their work.

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Conclusion and Final Thoughts

The episode wraps up with the hosts reflecting on their diverse experiences and the importance of finding a balance between different sales channels and pricing strategies. They underscore the necessity of understanding one’s audience, maintaining quality, and strategically managing multiple aspects of the business to thrive in the illustration industry.

Helen concludes with a positive note on their collaborative efforts, highlighting how each member’s strengths contribute to their overall success: “We were running the shop… it was their artwork… it was brilliant” (21:34).

Katie and Tanya echo the sentiment, emphasizing the importance of adaptability and strategic planning in maximizing art sales and sustaining a creative career.

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Notable Quotes

• Helen: “I had an online shop for a few years and it was brilliant. It wasn't just a hobby, it did make money.” (00:58)
• Katie: “I created calendars… people would pre order them and then it meant that I only printed as many as I'd sold.” (04:37)
• Tanya: “You harnessed your art to a practical product so people can persuade themselves this is… useful.” (06:04)
• Katie: “Don't price things based on what you think is expensive, because the people who are buying from you have a lot.” (18:02)
• Tanya: “Set up your own thing. Invite the people.” (22:17)

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Timestamp Key:

• 00:58 – 00:58 minutes
• 04:37 – 04:37 minutes
• 06:04 – 06:04 minutes
• 12:49 – 12:49 minutes
• 18:02 – 18:02 minutes
• 19:19 – 19:19 minutes
• 20:00 – 20:00 minutes
• 21:34 – 21:34 minutes
• 22:17 – 22:17 minutes

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This episode provides a comprehensive guide for illustrators seeking to increase the visibility and sales of their work. By leveraging online platforms, diversifying product offerings, implementing strategic pricing, and engaging in in-person sales events, artists can navigate the complexities of the creative market and achieve sustained success.

Transcript

[Katie]

Right, we're back and we've got Nice question one from Lindt Press on Instagram, who says, how do you get your art scene by people that want to buy it? And then in the same vein, Rafaela Taylor said. I know I keep mentioning markets fairs and selling prints, but I would find it interesting to get deeper into this topic. The interview that was recently posted on the business course was a great start, but I'd find it interesting to go into a bit more depth or cover some specific areas. It seems like a lot of people on the business course are also interested in this as an additional revenue stream, but wondering if it's worth it. From what I've gathered, Tanya and Helen both have experience running online shops and making prints, so I'd be interested to hear more about your experience with this. Is it really possible to make money? Is it more of an expensive hobby?

[Helen]

Yeah, brilliant. Yeah. I had an online shop for a few years and it was brilliant. It wasn't just a hobby, it did make money. I'm trying to remember how much it made us. Maybe about £11,000 a year, probably. But that did take a lot of work. It was good as an extra stream of income, but I had to keep on top of it all the time. I haven't got a huge Instagram following, but I've got enough that would send people to the shop. So I think if you don't have a social media somewhere with a good group of dentists, it doesn't have to be a huge amount of people, but people who love your work and want to buy it. Without that, I would say an online shop is quite hard. You could start your shop and your social media at the same time and build them both up together. That would work, but it was worth it. It was really good. I enjoyed doing it and I stopped doing it because I. I just juggled so many projects and my head was just spinning in all directions and in the end I had to decide which things were a priority. So, yeah, we closed our shop. But it did. It worked brilliantly, as long as I was always sending out newsletters and posting on Instagram to be consistent.

[Tanya]

Yeah, but also, that was two of you, wasn't it? Because you had Jerry's Prints as well. Because when you said 11,000 a year will turn over, that's a lot. That's really good for a side gig for a shop.

[Helen]

Yeah. And I was doing all the marketing, so there were two of us with stuff in the shop, but I was doing all the marketing work, which is a lot of work. We didn't share that. And Gerry's work. We sold the majority of Gerry's work.

[Tanya]

Which are higher prices.

[Helen]

Yeah. Because his work, he makes huge, big whale prints. And actually, I haven't included the whale prints. We sold those completely separately. In another way, we'd have an online exhibition which would last a weekend and people could go to the website just for that weekend and we'd sell about 10 of them and they were about a thousand pounds each. So we also have. We still do that, actually. We'll carry on doing that. But that was. It is a shop, but it was done in a very different way. It was. Doors open, doors are closed. And that was a good way of doing it, actually. And we still do that because it's an intense little bit of marketing. But once you've finished. Gerry's not into doing any of that marketing stuff and I love it, so that's my job. And because Gerry doesn't like doing any of that at all, we decided we would close the shop because it was a lot of work for me and I've got so many other places to spin.

[Tanya]

But.

[Helen]

Yeah, so that was.

[Tanya]

That was based on a good Instagram following. You'd say that's the how to comes from building your following and your newsletter.

[Helen]

And the newsletter, yeah.

[Katie]

Because I always think emails sell much. Like, it's much easier for somebody to click on a link in an email and buy something than to get a link on social media and go off social media.

[Helen]

It's tricky on Instagram because they've got to go back to your profile and click your little list of links. Yeah. So it was a mixture of Instagram and Instagram saying to people, join the newsletter. And then once they're on the newsletter, then it's easier to have those links.

[Tanya]

And like you said before, Instagram is not your property. And the following there could disappear in a day once your account is hacked, as it may inevitably one day happen. Or not, if you're lucky. So building the emails on the newsletter gives you your real estate to contact that list of people again. And they will always. That will always be your own list.

[Helen]

Your list doesn't have to be long either. They just have to be good fans who really like your stuff and really want to buy it. So you don't have to have a massive newsletter. I think when we were running the Shopman newsletter was. It was quite low. I'm trying to think now maybe 700 people, which is not.

[Tanya]

That's not bad.

[Helen]

It's not. It's Definitely not bad but it's not in the thousands. I have got thousands now but I'm just remembering back when we had the shop it wasn't huge but there was enough people that people would come and.

[Tanya]

Buy the stuff and Katie, you did calendars, didn't you?

[Katie]

Yeah, I had a great time doing calendars because I'd exper. I'd like dabbled with Etsy and I found that the, for me anyway, like the fees that Etsy took were high and then the amount of time hanging around at the post office for the occasional sale, like it just didn't work out as being worth it and it did feel like an expensive hobby. But then I discovered the idea of pre selling things so I created calendars. I like mocked up the design, told people it was available on my, like on my email list and on social media and then people would pre order them and then it meant that I only printed as many as I'd sold so there wasn't excess stock hanging around and it meant I could give people special offers and they'd get a little bonus planning wall planner thing that was like really inexpensive to print for me if they booked, if they not booked, if they bought it by a certain date and yeah, for me that was a really consistent earner. I'd get about £1,000 per year so like only November, December doing it, that'd be about £1,000 and probably 5 or 600 pound of that was profit and at that time that was like a big chunk of money. It covered my Christmas expenses, I could buy all my Christmas presents with it and also I really enjoyed doing it and I roped in Cameron, my husband to help me pack them up and he loves doing that sort of thing. So I pack them up and post them and yeah, that's why Gerry and.

[Helen]

I worked well with the shop because he loved wrapping and I don't really like doing that. So I would do the sales bit and he would do all the wrapping.

[Katie]

And go team, isn't it? You need like somebody who loves marketing and somebody loves packing and posting because.

[Tanya]

You completely underestimate how much time you're going to be faffing around in a domestic post office with everyone tutting behind you because you've got a load of stuff in one go or that you're going back frequently taking one thing at a time because you've sold another print. But your calendar is such a good idea because you've harnessed your art to a practical product so people can persuade themselves this is, I'm not just buying a piece of art for the wall. This will be useful for other people's presence or useful for me. So looking at selling your art should be, can you put your art onto something that is. And inevitably, anything on paper is cheap to produce is cheaper than stuff on plastic, like the phone cases and all the stuff that comes with the dropshipping, which is a bit tricky, isn't it? Then there's environmental issues and how you feel about mass producing stuff. But paper is a winner.

[Helen]

We found that every time we made a new product, we made sure that we considered the size of the envelope before we made the product. And when we had the product made, we would buy the envelopes and the packaging and the little freebies that went inside and the tissue paper and everything for every single thing we had. Because there was no point making a new product and then you launch it and you're selling it. Oh, no, we have no envelopes. I've got to go to the shops and get the envelopes or they don't fit or the postage is going to be more than I expected and we lose a load of profit. So it's always a good idea to consider the packaging and the cost of postage and the freebies that are going to go in there, stickers or postcards or whatever, with every single new product that you put in the shop and.

[Tanya]

Get your postage right as well. Because a lot of the stuff I sell online and Etsy is about Hong Kong. I send loads of it to America or to Canada. Yeah, that's still on there. Because that will. The reason I sell prints online came about as an accident, which is maybe the way other people do it. You have a show, you put all that hard work into a show. I sold lots of prints. The show finished and then people kept saying, can I still buy some of the prints? So I thought at the time this was probably about 2012. Etsy's great as a place to sell and as a kind of catalog of all your work and the prints that are available. So I loaded it all up and then I used to sell very frequently from that. And as there's a diaspora of either expats who loved Hong Kong, who have gone back to their home countries, or Hong Kongers that have left and gone to their own countries. I do loads of worldwide postage and it's a real pain in the butt because some of the prices are really high. Like sending to the US or Canada is in the 18 pound range. So you really have to check out whether you're going to do it in mailers or flat pack. Are the flat pack strong enough to take an A3 image? Would they get bent? And then the girls at the post top say don't put fragile on it because they'll bend it just for a laugh. So you know, mailers, mailing roles are difficult because your work is going to be all springy and it. If they try and force it and lay it flat, it will get a crease in it. So you have to put in instructions on how to open open the package. But it's been a really good thing to do because the work is very subject specific. I don't have to do much marketing on it because people are actually searching something like map of Hong Kong or Chinese New Year. So I haven't got a newsletter or anything to sell it. I just left the work there knowing that I could continue to print these things and that would be a nice cupboard to sell it from.

[Katie]

So that's how you're getting your work in front of people that want to buy it is just by describing it and then Etsy yes it to people that are looking for that sort of thing.

[Tanya]

In theory I put all the right hashtags on it but then when I try to search myself from outside it doesn't. I don't find that it's there easily. So I don't know, maybe there's a glitch in the universe there. But then after the prints I started making them into cards and I met this lady who runs into indie retail academies at Claire Yates and she's so brilliant and that was pretty life changing. So we put Claire in our business course talking about how to sell to shops. So that's the second stage. You can sell business to consumer. I sell your art to individuals or you can sell to businesses who will get your art in front of other people. So Claire's is all about how from a shopkeeper's point of view, she owns a indie retail kind of art and design shop in Bigger in Scotland and she knows what it's like from her side of the counter when artists want to sell their cards or their prints or crafts or whatever and it's just invaluable the stuff she talks about. So we have got her to talk especially to illustrators about what kind of things have higher profit margins, are easier to deal with and shops like to sell and greetings cards is one of them. We've also got. We've got another card manufacturer on business course, lovely Hadley Paper Goods and she goes into the nitty gritty of the profit margins and production good ideas about producing cards and finding good printers, because that's a great area for illustrators to get into. If someone loves your card, they might actually buy a print off you after they bought a few cards, or they send your card to someone who they think will like that work, who will then look you up on the back and maybe buy art prints. So it's like a calling card or your own marketing that actually makes a bit of profit at the same time. So I did a batch of cards, I learned how to do a line catalogue and I sent it to the new super huge gallery in Hong Kong called M plus. And they've got two shops because the gallery is so huge. It's like the Tate Modern, but in Hong Kong. And they ordered the full range and they keep ordering more every time I make a new one and they order from me every two months. So I just do one client because that can get really complicated if you're managing too many clients and they want to do things instead of buying wholesale, retail, they want to sell and return, which is really complicated.

[Helen]

That must be hard for cards because they might get handled and then sent back.

[Tanya]

Yeah. And really hard for prints and worse for stuff like wrapping paper, which wrapping paper would be a dream for illustrators to do. But the delivery, the manufacture, the sale or return, or them saying, oh, it's got all bent, so we'll just put it in the bin. And you can't remember how many you sent in the first place. And unless you like Excel spreadsheets, sale or return is a nightmare.

[Katie]

Yeah, I think in general, it's best to avoid that. Isn't it clo written. You've bought these, you have to sell them now.

[Tanya]

But if it's not cards that you're selling or products, there are some other ways about it. Like you can go to. Is it print space?

[Helen]

Yeah, print space. You can scan your work in and specify what kind of paper and everything, and then advertise it in your shop. And then every time one is sold, Princip send it out. Yeah, yeah.

[Tanya]

They've made it really easy. I think they've got something called. Is it called. It's not Creative. Boom. Creative Space. Creative something.

[Helen]

Yeah.

[Tanya]

And they have a whole book on how to sell your art using their system. And they will promote your artwork as well. And you don't even have to sign the stuff. They'll print it directly from print space and send it out for you.

[Katie]

Wow.

[Tanya]

Like you were saying, if you advertise it on your. On Your website and they have a whole on Facebook. There's a really good group allied to print space that do free online courses about how to sell art. And there's a book also called the Artist's Guide to Selling Work by Annabelle Ruston, published by Bloomsbury for their reading. Yeah. If you want to read more.

[Katie]

Nice. Also, I feel like in products, like, when you're selling your own work, you have much more scope and leeway for pricing, don't you?

[Tanya]

Yeah.

[Katie]

Because if people are buying your work, they want your work, they're not like, how am I going to get the cheapest card? They're like, I love Helen Stephen's work and I want a lion on a card. Not that you have a lion.

[Helen]

Who is this person? I love this person.

[Katie]

And then I think you. Yeah, you can mess around with it a bit. Not mess around. You can experiment scientifically. If it's four pound, how much? How many do I sell?

[Helen]

Yeah.

[Katie]

How much profit am I making? How much fun am I having?

[Helen]

We had this whole conversation, Jerry and I, when we were. When we had the shop. So he sells his original whale prints over, he opens the doors for a weekend and closes them. But he also makes these whale posters. So they're not hand printed. Those are, you know, printed somewhere else.

[Tanya]

Are they litho or.

[Helen]

They're just a very nice quality poster with the. With a whale image on it that's not quite the same as the original artwork. But sometimes he'll do batches where he'll get the poster and then he'll do one layer of screen printing of neon fish over the top or something.

[Katie]

I think we've got one like that.

[Helen]

Yeah. So those, because those are a much cheaper price point, we don't put them in the weekend exhibition. We put those in. We used to put those in the shop that's open all the time. So those posters, because they were hand finished, I think we were selling those for about £100 each and they sold really well. They were our biggest seller because if you couldn't afford the print that was nearly a thousand, you might be able to buy the poster. And it was hand finished. And then we had this conversation about, shall we? The whale images are so popular. Should we put them on the front of notebooks or postcards or whatever? But we decided against it because then you could get the whale image much cheaper and would it spoil the sales of the.

[Tanya]

Does it cannibalize the main one?

[Helen]

So, because Gerry is really known for those whales and the prints are so beautiful and high end and he makes a nice. It makes. It's worth imprinting them because he makes good money on them. Then it's not worth, say, printing them on a T shirt or a postcard or a card. Yeah, but that's. We had a chat about it numerous times and always kept coming back to, no, let's just keep those as they are. Because what if you've got the whale print and it's a thousand pounds and then you've got a whale lampshade and it's a hundred. It makes the original print not seem worth the money.

[Katie]

It's worth thinking about if you want to keep something special.

[Tanya]

Yeah, but there's an argument, not totally against what you've just said, but to make yourself affordable, especially for fine artists. Do you remember when I told you we were having that kind of mentorship from Kerry Hand? There was a group of us in Barrick that were picked and anyway, we work with this amazing mentor, if anyone wants to look her up. She's called Kerry Hand, C E I and then Hand As Normal. And she has a really good podcast and she talks to more fine artists and sculptors and architects in all different sort of areas. One section of the things she was talking about was, if you only sell a painting four times a year and your paintings sell at £8,000, then how do you live on that income? And she was saying, even in fine art, it's worth making a smaller, more affordable version of your work so that people can buy into it. That's a bigger jump than Jerry's thousand pound Wales. But I think it's really relevant for people who. Their work takes a long time and it has a high value. A bit like the Andrew Cranston show that was in the gallery in Wakefield. They have one etching for sale there because, of course no one can afford one of his gorgeous paintings. But he must have been to Kerry Hand and she's like, yeah, make an etching and do it in an edition of 800 so that you can sell that for maybe £200. So there's an accessible aspect to your work, so you can find a way that doesn't cannibalize it or doesn't use the whale as a faux motif or kind of branding thing. But it's a different bit of Jerry that people could have.

[Helen]

We did. We. We had the posters. So there was the thousand pounds and then the hundred pounds. But yeah, I. I don't know whether we were right or wrong, really. The posters sold incredibly well because it was definitely the next stage down from the original print.

[Tanya]

And it's horses for courses, isn't it? Some people do have the money to buy the unique individual piece.

[Helen]

There are plenty of people to buy those. We always sold out every time. Even whether you think, wow, it's a lot of money that, isn't it? There are always plenty of people who wanted them. We have waiting lists for them.

[Tanya]

That's amazing. And also that thing of don't price things based on what you think is expensive, because the people who are buying from you have a lot, have a far better income, more likely than an artist.

[Helen]

I had a good conversation with your sister years ago, Katie, before I knew you, you. And she was pricing. She's a photographer, isn't she? And she does wedding photos and she told me that she thinks about what you would expect to pay if you were going to have somebody take your wedding photos and then triple it. Wow. That's what she. That's how she came up with her fee. And she's hugely busy, isn't she? Yeah.

[Katie]

She knows. Going on about, I'm going to stop doing weddings, I'm going to. And she carries on every year.

[Helen]

So she's so sociable. I bet she loves.

[Katie]

Yeah, she likes talking to people.

[Helen]

Yeah.

[Tanya]

But then the opposite of that is you go on Etsy and people are putting out prints. I don't know whether they're G clays or whether they're just printing them out from inkjet printers so they'll fade away. And those prints are selling for. They're putting them for 10, 15 pounds. It's way too cheap and it pulls the whole market down.

[Helen]

You do wonder whether it actually works for those people. For those people. Is it a hobby? Are they. You don't know, do you, whether it actually works. I can't imagine how you make that work.

[Katie]

I think that's where it's really important not to look at what other people are doing as well, because, yeah, you don't know if it's a hobby. You don't know if they've got a secret, secret pile of money that they're actually living on.

[Tanya]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And they can afford. They're just looking to sell and they enjoy the buzz of the cell, but it's not important to them. I don't think I'd really want to go to print something out and go to the post office for ten pounds.

[Helen]

Yeah. When you take the cost of the post office and the time it takes you to join the queue and wait.

[Katie]

There, packaging, I think that's really important to actually really Price up. Like the packaging, the postage, the cost of making the thing and then your time as well. I think people always forget about their time.

[Tanya]

The emails back and forth. Have you sent it yet? Yeah, it's on its way. You do want to make a profit.

[Katie]

Otherwise what's the point?

[Helen]

But then I have really good friends who run a shop and they sell lots and lots of very low cost things like postcards and badges and things, but they sell in such massive quantity that they're at the post office every day with four bags for life or more. And they have an arrangement with the post office. You can do the drop and what's it called? Click and drop. I don't know what it's called. They just leave their bags there, they don't even have to join the queue. And every day they've got a guaranteed huge quantity of stuff that goes all over the world. So they've got very low cost.

[Tanya]

Price points.

[Helen]

Price points. But they sell in such massive quantity it makes it worth it.

[Katie]

Annoyingly, there's no right or wrong. Yeah, they do it really cheap and sell loads of them or do it a bit more pricey. Sell a few.

[Tanya]

And then there's in market, in person market. So we have Taryn on the course talking about selling at fairs and that's a lot of work. But then on the same hand, a couple of years ago I saw the Glasgow Print or the Glasgow Illustrators Fair in action, maybe print fair. And it just blew me away. I felt so excited. Each illustrator's stall was three deep in people grabbing at prints and all the different stuff. There were lots of like football scarves with illustrator's designs on it, badges, all sorts of stuff. And the majority of people at that fair were selling in huge volume. It was two days, the place was hot and steamy and noisy and I was like, let's do one of these in Berwick. So I think if you go to a fair that's marketed properly and there's a buzz about it, you can do really well there.

[Katie]

And that's the thing with fairs, they're not all created equal.

[Helen]

We did a pop up shop in town once, didn't we?

[Tanya]

That was really good.

[Helen]

That was really lucrative.

[Katie]

We made a cardboard cutout.

[Helen]

You were in Canada maybe, and I made a cardboard cutout of you and you just stood behind the till all day.

[Katie]

It was amazing. I wasn't there. That's weird.

[Helen]

That was incredible that Gerry and I had lots of artwork because we were running the shop. We just put all our stuff from the shop in There. It was brilliant because there was a real buzz about it. Everybody was out and it was well worth it.

[Tanya]

And we did a mini one. Do you remember the first one we did at Christmas here?

[Helen]

Yes.

[Tanya]

And we invited friends because a lot of people in Hong Kong used to do sales like that. Someone who'd got the biggest house would ask everyone else to come to their house party. Yeah. And then you just give people lots of nice drinks and cakes. And then they. We sold a lot. Even just in the little home.

[Katie]

Brilliant tip in itself to get your work in front of people that want to buy it. Set up your own thing. Invite the people. Yeah.

[Tanya]

It's a bit like those. Some of those kind of small bespoke fashion item fashion brands will do things like a sample sale and they send it on a private list. Everyone's like, are you going to that sample sale? It's in a weird old factory down a back street and it's full of posh ladies. I mean, dad, the. The jumper people out in Galashiels, all the women who go off to buy some faulty cashmere. You can't move.

[Helen]

I need to ask you about this after the podcast. What? What? Knitwear is to be had in Galashiels. I need to know about this.

[Tanya]

Well, they. Because all the factories were there, weren't they? All the cashmere factories and some of the best feral jumpers known to humanity. What? You can really create a buzz around a little, kind of homemade. In my kitchen sale, we had a lot of fun, that first one.

[Helen]

Yeah, we did. It was really good. Your house makes everything look very glamorous, though.

[Katie]

Yeah.

[Tanya]

My son would just say it's full of crap. That's how you make a glamorous house, full of rubbish from antique shops.

[Helen]

Should we say goodbye, then?

[Katie]

We'll do another question in the next episode. See you there.

[Helen]

Okay, bye.

[Tanya]

Goodbye.