"I used to cry in the toilets before every job (and then I'd go draw)" - a live illustration chat with Katie

Summary

Podcast Summary: "I used to cry in the toilets before every job (and then I'd go draw)"

The Good Ship Illustration
Live illustration chat with Katie
May 15, 2026

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Overview

In this episode, the Good Ship Illustration team—Helen, Katie, and Tania—dive into the realities of working as a live illustrator, with a special focus on Katie’s experiences. They address community questions about AI’s impact on live illustration, the ethics of working for free to gain experience, the exhilarations and anxieties of working live, and practical strategies for both the creative and business sides of the career. As always, their discussion blends honest vulnerability, practical insight, and supportive camaraderie.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Threat (and Limits) of AI in Live Illustration

[00:28 – 04:09]

• Katie's Perspective on AI:
  Katie describes AI as a background concern for all illustrators but doesn’t see it replacing live illustration soon. She notes that while AI-powered portrait generators exist, their outputs lack the vitality and riskiness of live, human-made work.

  “Being a human is a USP. Like, wow, well done! ...So being alive is useful.” – Katie [01:56]

• The Magic of Human Presence:
  Clients increasingly value having a real artist on-site; the “live” aspect creates a thrilling, visceral experience, both for observers and for the illustrator. Audiences are mesmerized by “the fallibility and vulnerability of an artist.” [03:34]

• AI and Infographics:
  AI excels at static infographics, but those are often “dry” jobs Katie admits she doesn’t enjoy. She observes that if a client uses AI for these, they may never have hired a human anyway, and human illustrators shouldn’t fear losing their magic touch in live scenarios.

The Rewarding, Nerve-Wracking World of Live Illustration

[04:15 – 13:13]

• The Performative Side:
  Creating art in real time—on paper or digitally in front of live audiences—is “like a magic trick.” The thrill is in the risk, immediacy, and interaction.

  “I think live illustration is... a growing industry... The more people learn about it, the bigger it gets.” – Katie [02:11]

• Different Facets of Live Work:

  • Drawing content & key messages at conferences/boardrooms.
  • Event vibe sketching—less lucrative but “special.”
  • Fashion/events—drawing guests with products.

  Each has its own challenges, business models, and target clients.

Should You Work for Free to Gain Experience?

[12:20 – 19:16]

• Community Question from Joanna:
  Joanna wonders if working for free (“until up to scratch”) for a company’s live illustration roster is advisable.

• Hosts’ Collective Stance:

  • Strongly discouraged.
    Working for free sets bad precedents, devalues skills, and perpetuates industry underpayment. “Being paid properly is the rising tide floats all boats.” – Tania [14:15]
  • Agency Models:
    Many agencies pay poorly on sliding scales. Training should be paid. Training yourself and building your own portfolio is better long-term, even if more effort is required.
  • Strategic Free Work:
    If you ever do free work, retain creative control and clear boundaries. Only do it as a passion/portfolio project, not for commercial gain.
  • On Readiness:
    “You will never feel ready. ...Just have to start charging and freak out quietly and don’t tell them you’re freaking out and do the job.” – Katie [18:35]

• Leveraging Local Opportunities:
  Local clients can offer unexpectedly well-paid, meaningful work (e.g. museums, councils); using regional SEO keywords helps find these gigs.

The Emotional Journey: From Panic to Professional

[26:44 – 29:41]

• Living with (and Leveraging) Nerves:

  • Both Katie and Helen thrive on the adrenaline and performative “slight panic” of live work.

  • Katie confesses that her best work emerges “when I feel like I might cry,” and that’s part of the magic; she’s moved from crying in the toilet pre-job to being “almost too relaxed” now after years of lived evidence that it always works out.

    "When I started out, I was, like, actually crying in the toilet before jobs and stuff and, like, really, really scared... But now... I need to, like, [be more scared].” – Katie [27:30]

• Process Tips:

  • Structure the page (or screen) to time—divide space for each topic/time slot.
  • Don’t overfill early; restraint keeps things readable and paced.
  • Capture the visual story so non-native speakers could still understand the essence at a glance.

• Getting Used to the Spotlight:
  Over time, you build up “evidence” that it works out, lowering the anxiety and increasing professional confidence.

Turning Words into Pictures: The Metaphor Game

[21:02 – 26:44]

• Synthesizing Complex Speech:

  • Live illustration is about quickly turning spoken ideas (often jargon-filled) into clear visuals.
  • Cliches (lightbulbs for ideas, businessmen on tightropes) arise naturally but can be adapted or playfully subverted.
  • Practice builds a mental “library” for recurring themes (e.g., during COVID, Katie drew endless viruses).

• Balancing Literal and Editorial:
  Combine direct interpretations with occasional “wacky” insertions for engagement, but beware giving prominence to irrelevant details (“with great power comes great responsibility and you have drawn a massive chicken” – Katie [25:02]).

Practical & Business Strategies

[15:03 – 20:46]

• Building Your Business:

  • Focus on local SEO/location-specific keywords.
  • Educate clients on fair rates and copyright.
  • Build portfolio via self-directed practice (using podcasts, videos, TED talks as source material).
  • Don’t wait to feel “ready”—start charging sooner than you think.

• Agency Training Cautions:
  Some agencies offer training but at the cost of low (or no) pay and control over your progression. If you do accept an agency route, clarify exit options, pay progression, and portfolio usage.

Katie’s Live Illustration Course & Community

[31:42 – 33:12]

• Live Illustration Course Launch:

  • Katie announces her course will reopen May 15th [31:42].
  • Tania and Helen endorse its practical value, especially for building both creative skills and live confidence.

• Art Club Live Illustration Jam Idea:
  The trio brainstorm hosting a live “art club” focused on live illustration as a friendly, supportive community practice event.

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Memorable Quotes

• On AI vs. Human Uniqueness:
  “Being a human is a USP... So being alive is useful.” – Katie [01:56]

• On Performative Magic:
  “As soon as you start drawing, the attention from the children in the room… it’s like you’re performing some sort of magic trick.” – Helen [04:15]

• On Free Work in the Industry:
  “Being paid properly is the rising tide floats all boats.” – Tania [14:15]

• On Readiness:
  “You will never feel ready. So don’t wait for this magic moment when you’re like, now I am ready to charge. You just have to start charging and freak out quietly…” – Katie [18:35]

• On Learning To Cope With Nerves:
  “When I started out, I was, like, actually crying in the toilet before jobs... But now, sometimes I almost wish I was a little bit more scared because I’m too relaxed.” – Katie [27:30]

• On Building a Visual Library:
  “In Covid, I drew so many viruses all the time, now I draw AI, like data chips and funnels and data.” – Katie [23:44]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• AI and Human Value in Live Illustration: [00:28 – 04:09]
• Magic & Performance of Drawing Live: [04:15 – 09:14]
• Different Types of Live Illustration Work: [10:28 – 13:13]
• Working for Free—Don’t Do It: [12:20 – 14:49]
• Building a Local Client Base: [15:03 – 17:52]
• Calming Live Illustration Nerves: [26:44 – 29:41]
• Turning Concepts to Visuals: [21:27 – 26:44]
• Katie’s Course & Live Art Club Plans: [31:42 – 33:12]

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Final Takeaways

• Live illustration is more in-demand than ever because of the irreplaceable presence, risk, and magic of real human artists.
• Don’t undersell yourself; avoid free work traps and value your time and skills.
• Confidence grows with experience—the nerves can fuel creativity rather than sabotage it.
• Local gigs can be hidden gems, often better paid and more rewarding than big-city commissions.
• Community, practice, and evidence of your abilities are everything in building a sustainable live illustration career.

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If you’re a nervous, passionate illustrator wanting to dip your toes into live work, Katie and the team’s insights—and their genuine, supportive tone—will leave you feeling both seen and encouraged.

Transcript

[A]

Hello.

[B]

I've got questions for you. Okay, hit me.

[A]

Okay. Do you ever worry, Katie, that live illustration would be replaced by AI Soon? A bit of context. I'm curious about live illustration, but wonder if it's worth learning the skill, since I'm a newbie and it would take me some time as it feels so easy to replace with AI, especially for remote gigs. What do you think?

[B]

Do I worry? I mean, I think all illustrators have AI in the back of their mind, like. But I don't know if worry is the right word. I'm just aware of it and I've seen things. So what. What I'm seeing, AI wise, is clients will get in touch and you can tell what they've written. Is AI assisted? Because sometimes it doesn't make sense, or there's. They'll say something and they're like, oh, did you mean this? And they're like, oh, no, I didn't. But you can sort of forgive them that, because I know they're busy. The other thing, there's a company in Singapore, the Graphic Recording company, like, Live Illustration, who've created technology to do live illustration. Like machine. Machines do it, basically. And they've got like, AI portrait generation and stuff. And I was. When I saw that, I was like, what, graphic recording people are making this? What is. But then when I looked at it, it wasn't. It didn't worry me.

[A]

Not good.

[B]

It wasn't bad. It was just fine. I think it's like when we were talking about realism in the other episode, like, yeah, it's made realism not exciting because it's like, oh, yeah, it's just like a photo with this with a filter on to make it look like pencil drawing.

[A]

So this is just like another case of flying your freak flag, just being really vital.

[B]

Exactly. And I think Live Illustration, especially because it's got that you're there live, that risk thing is very human. If you're there in the room. I'm seeing that more and more. I think with AI, like, clients really want me to be there, which is understandable. And I had a. I had a client call on Wednesday and they were like, it could be remote. And we appreciate, you know, it's about environmental stuff, but we really. We want to get you on stage and talk about what you've drawn. And I was like, okay, fine. But it's because they even said it's because you being a human is so much more valuable. Which sounds crazy to even say that out loud. Like, being a human is a usp. Like, wow, well done. Yeah. But here we are. So being alive is useful, but I don't like. I think live illustration is. It's a growing industry and there's going to be. The more people learn about it, the bigger it gets. And I still get questions, people being like, what is live illustration? And like, clients at events will be like, this is. I've never seen this before. And you're like, well, I've been doing it 10 years and I consider myself a baby in the industry. It's been going since like the 70s, the 60s, 70s. So it's not new at all.

[C]

But still lots of big corporates haven't seen it in action.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I can really understand though, how they're thinking, especially in this time, of AI to see someone actually draw in real life. I mean, it's, it's a magnet on TikTok to watch people drawing things. So no wonder companies want you in the room and then on the big screen your pen is drawing. There's something visceral and exciting about it and it must focus people's minds to work on the content. It just seems like it, it's an AI beta.

[B]

Yeah. And the other thing, like a lot of people message me to say like, I haven't got an iPad, or I don't feel comfortable on the iPad.

[C]

Good.

[B]

Because I spent so much convincing clients, like, please let me work on my iPad, just because that's the way I like to work. And it's how I've developed my live illustration work. Like pieces of paper boards. Drawing on boards has become even more exciting and even more special because of AI. And clients are absolutely gagging for real humans to rock up with like painty hands and draw on real things. So I think it's absolutely, like, not a bad time to learn.

[C]

It's like Helen doing school visits or talks in theatres. They just love to see you draw, don't they?

[A]

As soon as you start drawing, it's like they're just the, the, the attention from the children in the room just watching as you draw as if you're performing some sort of magic trick.

[B]

Well, it is magic. You love it. Yeah, yeah.

[C]

They even have. You remember that weird act where people draw in sand as a theater act?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

They get the sandbox and then the overhead thing and that is a 10 minute, the theatrical act.

[A]

Storytelling, isn't it?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Humans love storytelling.

[C]

I'm just picturing those, those portraits that you mentioned when you said it. Like, oh, you can imagine how that machine AI works. Photo with fake Photoshop pencil filter on Top the disappointment that people would feel when they're like, oh, we know what this is. This is photo backgrounds and probably a library of icons that get triggered by certain words that people say in the speech. Is like, oh, like, idea. Here comes a light bulb. Quick, put the light bulb icon in. Or whatever. But seeing people draw with all the fallibility and vulnerability of an artist, I can imagine that's way more thrilling than something, actually.

[B]

So AI is really good at infographics, is it? Scarily good, yeah. And if you say, what's the differ?

[A]

What's infographics?

[B]

So it's not live, so, you know, a client will give you. And the good thing is, I've always been bad at it and I can't do it because it hasn't got the being scared element that I need to do work. So they'll give you a big document of boring information and they're like, could you visualize this into an infographic?

[A]

Like, and then how will they use that?

[B]

And then they'll, like, share it on LinkedIn or they'll share it around with the staff.

[A]

So it's the same as being an. It's an illustration job.

[B]

Yeah, but it'll be like data and stats and, you know, like, okay, so

[A]

you might draw some diagrams and.

[B]

Exactly, yeah. It's just making boring information visual. Okay. But yeah, AI is really good at that. And I, When I first tried it out, I was like, okay, time to be worried about that. But then also, if the client is using AI to do that, would they have used an illustrator in the first place? I don't know. And it doesn't have the magic of a real human taking risks and flying their freak flag. It's very safe and formulaic and, like, this is what this looks like.

[A]

So it's maybe a job that a human wouldn't enjoy very much anyway.

[C]

Exactly.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I don't know. I think it's a high. Infographics is a very specific discipline, and it's half graphic design, half illustration. So when you see people in. You'd often see it in National Geographic, where. Or Time Life magazine, where you get descriptions of how something works, like the. The history of renewable energies or something like that. And then they'll show you how something has been developed. And it will be a mixture of graphs, pie charts, illustrations of people digging

[A]

coal and stuff like that in annuals in the 1970s, didn't you? Brilliant diagrams of how a machine would work or something. I really like those, actually.

[C]

I really like infographics. Maps are effectively infographics I've kind of got one foot in that territory. And yeah, there was. There's a guy who works for Time magazine. He's a brilliant infographic designer and he got in touch with me about some maps and it was so exciting because I had a bit of a kind of hero crush on this guy. And then I realized there's all these competitions and annual exhibitions for infographics. It's a really big deal. But it got much more popular. I know. With the ones you're talking about. And I've seen the AI generated ones. They're almost too sleek. Like the color gradients float through them and it's all.

[A]

So these infographics that you're asked about to be, are they for meetings or is it the same as what Tanya, what Tanya's talking about? How is it different?

[B]

The ones that I get asked about is, it's usually like, oh, we've got this big report and it's you. We finished a project and we want to talk about what. What this three years work has resulted in and what we've done. And.

[A]

And they want to give it to their employees.

[B]

Yeah. So they want to like shout about what they've done, but they know nobody's going to read a massive document. Okay. But I really, really struggle to do them because they're so dry.

[A]

Yeah. You really like doing it live and being up against it, don't you? Yeah.

[C]

Imagine Katie with a gun against her head. That's really, that's. That's a happy place.

[B]

That's when I do my best work. Yeah. It's like when I feel like I might cry, the magic happens.

[A]

I feel like that too. Like, I really love drawing on stage and I really love Art Club because it's instant. There's a slight panic, which means you get out of your own way so the work doesn't have you trying to be perfection. Trying to make everything, you know. Yeah. Trying to perfect everything. I feel like that going out in my sketchbook as well. I feel like my best work happens when I'm out in my sketchbook and it rains or I'm getting in everybody's way and so I'm not. I'm annoying to everybody. I completely forget trying to do anything. I have no purpose other than I've got to get through this. Whatever happens on the paper happens on the paper. I really think I get my best work under those circumstances too.

[B]

It is magic, isn't it?

[A]

Yeah, I love it.

[B]

Yeah. Like I was at an event last night and I was spent all day waiting for it to be event time. And I felt like I was just waiting for it to be the event because I could plan ahead and, you know, do a bit of work beforehand. But I was like, no, I'm just gonna arrive. And then.

[C]

Well, this is explaining a lot to me. As you're describing it, I'm thinking, oh, what sheer hell.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

No preparation. Just waiting till someone shouts now. And then you have to do it and see what comes out. And, you know, it's always okay.

[B]

Yeah, it's always fine. They're always excited. The event organizer was like, if you could arrive an hour beforehand. And I was like, an hour? That's ages. Oh, my word. Like, am I gonna be scared enough to do anything?

[A]

But is that. So are you setting up the tech or are they setting up the tech?

[B]

I was setting up the tech. It was literally like, plug my iPad in. And I was like, it works. And she's like, oh, it was really easy. I said, yes, now we have an hour to wait.

[A]

But the.

[B]

Yeah, I just. They didn't. It was one of those events because normally I'm drawing talks and things, and last night they were like, just draw the vibe and the atmosphere. And I was like, oh. And then they were like, when it's the talks, stop drawing. And I said, this is like upside down. Lap bar stops there. So, yeah, it's weird to, like, stop for the talks and start again. But I was a bit scared because I wasn't in my comfort zone of just drawing what's happening, drawing the content. I was just.

[A]

So were you like a sketchbook illustrator at that event? Just drawing what was going on in

[B]

the room, but with a massive screen beside me of what I was drawing. Yeah, it was good. But people kept coming over and be like, this is so cool.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So that's the other part of live illustration, though, isn't it? You know, there's some people go and just draw the vibe or draw portraits or. It's quite broad.

[A]

Live illustrations and parties and stuff, don't they? Yeah.

[C]

Tell us about them.

[B]

No, I just wanted to do the observational drawing people in the room. But I found it really hard to. I personally found it harder to sell that as a service because I think when you're drawing content, it's a much easier return on investment thing. People are like, oh, you're gonna draw the important words, and we can share the important words where you like. Whereas if you're just drawing people at the thing, they're like, that's nice.

[C]

But also it's much more clearly financed, isn't it? A large corporate wants you to draw what they do and turn it into visual information. Whereas a one off kind of schmoozy event. Maybe it's a department store that's paying for it. How much can they pay for three hours worth of you drawing the event?

[B]

Yeah, it's a totally different market. Yeah.

[C]

And kind of less funded.

[B]

There's loads of like fashion portraits at like fancy designer events. You know, when it's like a handbag seller, you can tell. I know so much about designer stuff. Like a handbag shop gets you to draw people holding the handbags and stuff. I'm not into that.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

It's not metal. Yeah.

[C]

It's probably the other side of it, but really lucrative for people who've got either portraiture or fashion illustration skills. Yeah.

[B]

And actually in those settings you can see how you could sell it to a brand because you're like making people think they're really cool. They're thinking they're cool and they think the brand is cool and it's exciting and it's something to post on Instagram. So it's an advert.

[C]

So.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

It's a really big world, isn't it? The great big world of live illustration.

[A]

Got another question here from Joanna.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

And Joanna says, I'm being asked to work for free for a company to build up my live illustration skills. Is this okay? Should I do it? Context. This is a company that offers live illustration services to clients and has a roster of illustrators. There is a promise of paid work once I get up to scratch, but I get a knot in my stomach whenever anyone mentions creative free work. I haven't done live illustration before, but I've been practicing in my own time with podcasts and videos. Help. How should I navigate this?

[B]

Oh, this makes me angry.

[C]

Yeah, I feel angry too.

[B]

I hear so many horror stories about big agencies that specialize in live illustration are not going to name anyone, but they don't pay well. And this hearing that they're getting people

[A]

to work for free until she's up to scratch and they're the judge of it.

[B]

Yeah. I mean it's definitely in their favor hugely in there.

[A]

And it's in their favor for you to never get up to scratch.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I don't like being entrepreneurial and self employed is not for everyone. But I would always be much more inclined to train yourself by like watching TED talks, going to events and doing it for free for yourself. If you're gonna do it for Free. Don't get trapped in the doing it for free forever loop, but build up your portfolio and then just offer your services as a freelancer and then you don't have an agency like benefiting from your work. But then also, I know that's not for everybody. Some people hate marketing, they hate updating their website, blah, blah. But just, yeah, the working for free thing, you can be really strategic about it. However, you have to think about the people who cannot afford to work for free because not everybody has a secret pile of money or supportive parents or, I don't know, whatever the means to work for free. And when you work for free, you're setting the expectation that that is okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Whereas it isn't really okay.

[C]

Yeah. An industry gets. It gets evidence that, oh, some people will work for free and it brings the rates down and it damages the industry. Being paid properly is the rising tide floats all boats.

[B]

And if that company that wants you to work for free, if they really care about training you, they would pay you at least a base day rate for your time and cover your expenses because they're getting you trained up to work for them. So it's. They should be investing in you. They shouldn't be like, just donate your time.

[A]

It's the bit where they decide when she's up to scratch that bothers me. Like if she's already been practicing her own time doing podcasts and videos, get those on a website and show everybody what you're doing and put. And charge a fee.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

And an SEO would sort out your marketing. Because live illustration is great for SEO, isn't it? Because it's a very specific activity. Better. It's much better to say I do this specific activity rather than I'm just an illustrator, because the hit rate's not going to be so high and you

[B]

can, I think one of the best ways places to start is just where are you in the world? So even if you're not a live illustrator, like doing your SEO for, I don't know, Illustrator Birmingham, because people in Birmingham are looking for illustrators in or wherever you are. That's such an easy one.

[C]

I think that's quite counterintuitive for a lot of people. They're thinking, oh, I want the big design agency or publishing house in London or New York or wherever, whichever country you live in, to employ me. The thought of being local is like, where am I going to find work there? Yet weirdly, all the work that I have done has been local to this town and it's been really well paid because it's been either civic work or museum work or town council external funding. It's been better paid than it would be by certain design companies in big cities. So actually it does kind of work putting your locality in it. And I was suspicious of that, first of all.

[A]

Well, so I think you've helped them as well when you've told us about those commissions that you've had, because you have knowledge of what the average rate is for an illustrator or what, you know, a fair rate of pay for an illustrator is. You've educated them and then they've apologized and said, oh, yes, yes, you're right, we'll do that. So you've kind of laid out the basic structure for them to commission an

[C]

illustrator on that specific big project. Yeah. It was really helpful to be able to say, yeah, if you ask, if you put this project out with the fees. They asked me about the right fees and I gave them advice based on very specific briefing. And then they sent out the project around the local creative area here and said to people, okay, this is the job we want you to do, but we need the copyright. And I said, oh, you. I don't think you're going to get many responses, even though the rate is good, but asking for copyright will put a lot of people off. So they went back very. They were really cooperative and rewrote it. So three of the illustrators. There's three of us illustrators on this museum project. And I know the other two. They're all local to. To Northumberland. And it's just really nice to be part of something rooted in the place we live, being properly paid. And it will be in the museums for at least 20 years. So it was a really nice outcome. And I would have never thought locality would be an important issue in getting a job. In fact, I thought it would be counterintuitive. But I do remember a filmmaker friend who once said to me, grassroots, working in Grassroots is really good. If you work in your local area, you get known very quickly and word spreads organically and slowly. So it's like organic SEO.

[B]

Yeah. Then you're building your portfolio, you're getting paid work, and then bigger jobs arrive. Yeah, yeah. But I think the working for free thing just be very strategic or just avoid it if possible. Yeah.

[C]

I would only ever work for free if I had complete creative control over my submission. And I've said that to people before. Do this if you want, but you're. Whatever I produce, you will take. We're not having any negotiation about it, because if I'm giving you three free days work to work on a project, as long as we discuss it first, what you want and what I can do, and we work out the parameters. Free work should be purely an opportunity to do exactly what you want. Like a passion project being a portfolio.

[B]

Yeah. And I think it's also worth saying you will never feel ready. So don't wait for this magic moment when you're like, now I am ready to charge. You just have to start charging and freak out quietly and don't tell them that you're freaking out and do the job. Because the worst case scenario is that they pay you and they go, well, that was terrible. But you've got your first paid job and then you're bolstered with confidence to do another paid job. Whereas if you keep working for free, you just end up working for free forever. And I think even that what the question person said, you know, the promise of future paid work, maybe. Yes. But also I feel like working for free gets you more free work. In my experience, anytime I've worked for free, they've been like, oh, I've got this illustrator and she's willing to do.

[A]

I also wonder about Joanna. She would be working for free, but for what should she say, a company that offers live illustration services? So does that mean she's working for free and she's kind of tied to them because she might as well get her folio together and do it herself and not be within their framework of whatever their pay is. Because I imagine they're going to take a commission as well.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I suppose if she does decide to go with them, she needs to be able to get out easily when she decides she's ready to do it herself.

[B]

Yeah. There is one that they pay on like a sliding scale of how good you get. So, like, who decides that? I don't know them.

[C]

The people.

[B]

Yeah. So it's like when you're starting out, you're on the lowest and then you get up to the even on the highest. It's like way lower than I would recommend anybody charges.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is always makes me eye twitch a little bit. But on the flip side, they do train people really well.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that works incredible. And I don't mind when those illustrators get peed off and want to work for me instead. And then when they're getting paid well, they're like, what? This is amazing.

[C]

So that person would probably want some indication and maybe they have it from the company saying, you know, where you're at and where you need to get to, like, you probably need to do four unpaid gigs until you can hit these targets. But that feels really like a bit in housey, as though you're an employee. So, yeah, it depends whether you like the agency system or not.

[B]

And I suppose she's. If you're getting trained by them, that's your payment. But still, you can train you. You can train yourself, you can learn on your own jobs.

[C]

Katie can train you, I can train you. Live illustration course.

[B]

Completely biased because it's a live illustration course, but you're welcome to do that too.

[C]

No, I think it's a good idea. I've recommended it, obviously, to lots of people because I really wanted to know how it worked. I was like, I think I might like this. It's so useful for so many people with good drawing skills and, you know, just the ability to interpret ideas. Do you want to talk about that a bit? How you get the language and the ideas to turn complicated marketing stuff into images?

[B]

Yeah, because so live illustration is all happening on the spot. So you're listening to words, you might know a little bit about what the event is about beforehand, but you don't really know much. And your job is to, while they're speaking, turn it into pictures and kind of organize it a bit so that it's readable afterwards. And yeah, in the course I go into, there's the actual drawing side of it, like the creative bit and then the brain sorting bit. So you do synthesizing information and organizing it so that it's useful and knowing what to leave out and what to keep in mind and different ways to do that. So there's different, like, formats and you can have. It's almost like a template in your mind you can have. And you know, if it's this kind of talk, this template will work best. Or for that kind of talk, you might want to be more organic and brainstorm style. But a lot of people get really panicky about doing it live. So I included a whole thing about how to calm yourself down that's well handy because I think a lot of people are like, oh, I could do it if it wasn't live. And I'm like, well, then that's not live. That's just illustration.

[C]

What about the metaphors and things like that? How do. How do you turn kind of corporate speak ideas into visuals?

[A]

Like I say, they've said we want to do something about green energy and they want you and you're thinking on the spot and you've got to interpret that kind of concept very Quickly and easily. How do you.

[B]

Oh, it's funny because you can immediately just go, you know, draw an energy plant and. With leaves coming out of it and stuff, and be quite literal on that. But had a brilliant interview with Dario Paniagua in the course. And he flips metaphors on the head. So like. Like the energy plant with green things growing out of it is very, like, cliche. Or like a leaf hand and energy. That's all very cliche. But then he does brilliant things about, like, how to push your thinking almost in like an editorial way when you like.

[C]

It's very editorial. Like business editorial.

[B]

Yeah. I love speaking to him and he. But he plans ahead a lot, which I do not.

[C]

Yeah, that's what confuses me. If you're coming up with any metaphors for imagery and you've got to do it super quickly, the cliches will come first. And sometimes those cliches work if you kind of pat them about a bit and change them very slightly. But you don't have a lot of time to think, do you? So preparation for typical stuff that will come up, like inclusivity or maybe. Do you have a library of images for those?

[B]

Yeah, I think you sort of develop one in your brain anyway because there's stuff. So like, in Covid, I drew so many viruses all the time now I draw AI, like data chips and funnels and data.

[A]

How to draw the concept of AI.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

This job is not for me. Yeah, that's so difficult.

[C]

So much conceptual thinking. But then I think a lot of editorial illustrators have a library of go to's. Like, they used to be the things like financial risk or put him on a tightrope. Businessman in a suit on a tightrope. So there's lots of tropes like that that you can use, but I guess you want something that's quite individual or goes with the feeling of your work.

[B]

Yeah, I feel like you can be quite literal, like, as if you're just taking visual notes. You can be quite literal and then like, whack something mad in for fun as well. Like, I remember I was doing one for a credit card company and just, you know, I was, like, getting really bored and to keep myself entertained, sometimes I'll just do things like a man riding a snail or anything like. But they did actually ask. They asked me to remove the snail in that one, which is. I think that was the one thing keeping me going through this job.

[C]

Little brain farts popping up all over your drawing.

[B]

Oh, there was one. Somebody did. It wasn't my work. But I had a portfolio review with them. I was reviewing their portfolio and there was a job where they'd done a really big chicken. And I was like, oh, is this event about chickens? And they're like, no. And I'm like, well, with great power because comes great responsibility and you have drawn a massive chicken. And because of the visual hierarchy, this looks like it's about chickens. Yeah. So, you know, it's. It's a really good lesson in graphic designy stuff like that. Like, the biggest thing is the first thing you look at and you can guide people's eyeball around by doing different tricks.

[A]

I really liked that thing. It might have been an Instagram post or it might have been in your course, I can't remember. But you were talking about how you know that this talk is going to take an hour and you know they want one sheet of paper and so how you divide your paper into, like, time slots so that you know how long you've got on each area of the paper.

[B]

Yeah, that's one of my favourite things. That's my favourite way to work is like, I know it's going to be an hour and my paper is almost a visual timer. So I know, like, if I glance at my watch over halfway through, I should be halfway through the page. And that kind of planning, like, if I know there's five sections, I'll just make a little space on the page for each section and know that I need to fill that. And that can be really good for editing out as well because I can be like, right, don't go any bigger than that because you've got to fit four more bits in and you've got to be really restrained because that's something when people are starting out, I always see they want to capture too much or they start writing, writing, writing, writing, forgetting to draw and do the test of, like, if you couldn't speak English or whatever language this is in, could you get the general gist of what it's about by looking at it?

[A]

Yeah, because I can imagine if you've got. If you've traveled a long way to do the job and they're paying you a good amount of money to job, and then you've got one sheet of paper to do the whole hour on. I can imagine the panic of, like, I've got to do really well, I've got to draw as much as possible and you fill up the page in the first 10 minutes or something.

[B]

Yeah, it happens.

[C]

Yeah, because there's a. Yeah, there's A lot invested in you, isn't there? So the anticipation of performance must be really high. Yeah. Looking like you're worth it.

[B]

Yeah. I don't know how I think some. I don't think about that. I don't think about what I'm getting paid. I don't think about anything. I'm just like, what am I doing? Okay. And listen as if I'm just doing it for fun.

[C]

Did you have to train your brain not to worry about the money and the performance aspect and being worth it?

[B]

I think I've become desensitized to it because when I started out, I was, like, actually crying in the toilet before jobs and stuff and, like, really, really scared. And then in the job being like, ah, why am I here? There's been a terrible mistake. Like, I'm in Google headquarters and they're talking about finances. Ah. But then. But now, sometimes I almost wish I was a little bit more scared because I'm like, I'm too relaxed. I need to, like.

[A]

Because you're the expert at what you're doing and nobody else in the room can do that. And when you've had practice, I guess you. You're like, actually, even if the people watching me think that this can't be going well because I've only drawn one tiny picture in the top corner, I've timed it, and by the end of this, you are all going to be wowed by this. I know what I'm doing. You must have that feeling when you've done it a few times.

[B]

I think that's what it is. I'm like, I know it's. I've got so much evidence in my brain that I start out, this happens, I feel like this, and then I work through and then we get to the halfway point and I know that whatever I've done, people go, wow. Even if it feels like it's my worst drawing, it's because it's live. I think the bar is a lot lower than you think it's going to be as well. Which doesn't mean my work is terrible, but it means they don't have to be perfect or.

[C]

Yeah. The expectations are slightly different. I love the evidence thing in your head as the brain trainer. Like, it's evidence. Therefore, I know this, I can do this, and I'm good at it.

[A]

It's so similar to a school visit.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because you've got a time with the children and you've got a certain number of things you want to do and you pace it and you know that at the beginning, they're suspicious. They're like, who is this person? And then you kind of pull them in with your tricks and they always work and it's really good fun once everybody's got into it. It sounds like a similar experience is,

[C]

Kate, did you ever. Do they ever say things that you don't understand? You know, business word Bingo. Are they ever talking about things and you think, I've no idea what this. Or are you always able to take something from it?

[B]

And you're always able to take something. And I think partly why they employ an artist is because you've got a normal person, not a normal person's brain, like an outsider brain.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So even if they're talking about something super complex and I have no idea, I will generally get a gist, a gist of it and be able to know. So, you know, I can translate it

[A]

into human words if it's going to be particularly complicated. Do you sometimes ask for a bit more information before you get there?

[B]

Yes. And I'll do Googling as well and be like, what does that mean? Like insurance Things are always really. I'm like, what even is that?

[C]

Because they have so many specialized words, don't they? There's jargon.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Oh, yeah. They would need you more than ever.

[B]

And acronyms. I usually ask them for, like, what's your. Could I have all your acronyms, please, so that I'm not in the event, like, what does that mean? Because even when you Google them, if it's like an internal acronym, it won't be on Google, it's just their company. Yeah. And sometimes they don't use the letters, they'll say it like a word. So it'd be like swidgy. And looking back on this year's Switch up, what does Switch up mean? What does it stand for? So you need to find out beforehand and then you can pretend you're one of them.

[C]

Oh, it's like insider language, isn't it? And they. You're probably there to explain to them that they are not being transparent. But then they're employing you to. For internal communications, aren't they? They're not showing this to the world.

[B]

Usually not. Yeah.

[C]

It's like being a journalist, isn't it? Or a copywriter. A lot of people do, you know, business writers, where different companies come to them with their own complex systems and say, here's all the research. Can you write the report about what, as you were saying earlier, about what we've discovered, journalists have to understand so much stuff and make it Clear and able to communicate externally. Oh, you're very clever, Katie.

[B]

I think I'm nosy. And if you're nosy and if you're nosy and you like drawing and you don't get scared of people watching you draw, and you can draw, it's a brilliant job. It's really well paid. It's really good fun. You get to travel. It is scary. You do cry sometimes, but it's totally worth doing.

[C]

You don't cry anymore, though, do you? So you're fine anymore.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So it's just like the first year of crying and then. Then you're on your way.

[A]

I think everybody cries during the first year of whatever job you have.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

What am I doing?

[C]

Yeah. So are you going to put the live illustration course up soon again?

[B]

Doors are going to open on the 15th of May. I thought that sounds good. Just telling you now.

[A]

Oh, good.

[C]

I know there's a few people have been waiting to hear.

[B]

They have.

[C]

So they want to know when to get in and get learning.

[B]

I had a handful of DMs last week. Be like, when does it open so soon?

[C]

May 15th. Okay.

[B]

Yeah. It's gonna be good. Yeah.

[A]

What we should do, we should do a live illustration. Art club. So do an art club, but with a. A live illustration theme of some sort.

[B]

That would be fun.

[A]

Yeah, wouldn't it?

[C]

It'd be hilarious. I could do that. I could just read out the.

[A]

Throw words at us. Yeah.

[C]

And you could help her. Like when Helen's crying, you can nudge her and say, just draw a light bulb.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

It'd be fine at that point.

[B]

They're illegal actually, light bulbs.

[C]

Are they?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

There's like the digital finger, I think, for a long while in the early days, computers.

[B]

This way.

[C]

The pointy finger that used to appear on the screen. I did a lot of that in business and finance.

[A]

There must be other things like that. Oh, how many times have you drawn a phone?

[B]

A lot of phones. I'm really good at drawing worlds. A lot of globes, a lot of leaves, a lot of hands that are caring.

[A]

Yeah. Groups of people working together.

[B]

People caring.

[C]

I think the live. The art club live illustration is absolutely. If you just find the right text or we can make up a gobbledygook one.

[A]

That would be so good. We should try that.

[B]

Yeah. We almost need like two people having a chat and two people drawing it or something.

[C]

Set it up and we'll do it. That's going to be the. That will be the launch for the course.

[B]

It'll be so good. We'll do it. We'll tell you when it's happening. Maybe soon. Maybe soon.

[C]

I'll make them do it soon. Okay?

[B]

Goodbye. Bye.

[C]

La.