Identity + rejection: when your illustration work *is* you 🥲

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Good Ship Illustration
Episode: Identity + rejection: when your illustration work is you 🥲
Release Date: March 13, 2026
Hosts: Helen Stephens, Katie Chappell & Tania Willis

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Overview

In this candid and friendly episode, Helen, Katie, and Tania dig into the unique challenges of being a professional illustrator, focusing on how closely their creative work is tied to personal identity. They open up about handling rejection, the rollercoaster of illustration work, and the loneliness of creative freelancing. The trio also reminisce about how community and friendship (and a bit of activism and gardening) have been their lifelines.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Who Are You Without Illustration? ([00:24]–[05:07])

• The hosts consider alternative careers if illustration was suddenly off the table.

  • Tania jokes about becoming a custom urn maker inspired by a neighbor’s leopard-skin urn.

    "There must be a custom made urn maker out there. So as there will always be needs for death, I think I'm going into the custom made urn business." – Tania [01:34]

  • Helen dreams of writing a Substack and gardening.
  • Katie imagines going back to being a nanny but eventually pivots to wanting her own nanny agency (and selectively choosing the best gigs).

• Reflection on the emotional “famine” periods between commissions.

  • Katie describes the emotional cycle of work drought.

    "Three days with no inquiries... I'm a bad illustrator... I should be wise enough. It's annoying, because part of my brain is like, it's fine, you're going to be fine. And then the other part of me is, no, my life is over." – Katie [05:23]

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2. The Intertwining of Identity and Illustration ([05:51]–[07:18])

• The trio discuss how hard it is not to take rejection personally as an illustrator.
  • Helen: "It's interesting, isn't it? Because this is how your identity is linked to your job. Especially as an illustrator, it's quite rare how our job is so integral to who we are." [05:51]
  • Tania compares illustrators’ vulnerability to that of actors seeking roles, noting how constant pitching wears you down.

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3. Feast and Famine: The Work Cycle ([07:18]–[09:44])

• When "feast" periods (tons of work, no personal life) alternate with "famine" periods (work dries up).
  • Katie and Tanya describe the rhythm differences between rapid-job illustrators and those with longer-term projects, and the exhaustion from constant relationship-building with clients.

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4. Early Career Struggles & Money Matters ([09:19]–[10:53])

• The hosts reflect on the difficulties in early freelancing—uncertain rhythms, inconsistent clients, not knowing how much is "enough."
• Helen highlights the decreasing financial security in children's publishing:
  • "Advances haven't really gone up... it must be hard for picture bookmakers now because... making another book just to keep going money-wise." – Helen [09:44]
  • Importance of second income streams is stressed.

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5. Taking Control: Setting Boundaries & Protecting Yourself ([10:53]–[12:41])

• The necessity of saying no and having additional streams of income.

  • "It stops you saying yes to everything... and too much of that can be a real downward spiral." – Tanya [10:53]

• Organizing time for non-client creative activities (e.g., Helen's weekly "artist dates"):

  • "Every Friday I would go drawing from life... to feed my brain with ideas, rather than just sat in my studio working on the previous book." – Helen [11:50]

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6. The Author-Illustrator vs. Service Illustrator Life ([12:41]–[15:26])

• They compare the creative fulfillment and pressures of making picture books (deeply personal, "giving birth") versus service/client illustration (collaborative, sometimes emotionally distant).

  "When you've just finished a book... it's like you just gave birth. Somebody else is going, when are you gonna have the next one?" – Helen [13:39] "It sounds really nice being a picture book author, illustrator, but that's a lot of work... You've got one idea and you have to have another idea and keep going like that." – Tanya [13:30]

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7. Working on a Book Together vs. Typical Client Work ([16:00]–[18:33])

• Katie and Helen share their experience co-writing and illustrating a children's book with Walker Books. They contrast this supportive, interactive process with the often transactional and impersonal nature of other illustration gigs.
  • "They put some Irish jig music on. They did us a dance immediately. And I looked at Katie thinking, what does Katie think of this?" – Helen [16:54]
  • "There is... an actual team, a genuine relationship. It feels like there's an army wanting this thing to succeed." – Katie [17:37]

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8. Community: The Antidote to Isolation ([20:12]–[25:01])

• The hosts discuss the importance of finding creative community and how Good Ship Illustration came to be.

  • "If we had never met and we'd never done Good Ship and we’re still doing these same things on our own, the amount of stuff we would not have learned from each other, I can't imagine." – Helen [20:43]
  • Tanya recounts feeling rejuvenated after participating in a group show post-isolation:

    "That isolation is corrosive after a while... But that isolation is corrosive after a while... So if you're feeling like that as an illustrator and you're feeling lonely, just look. There's so many platforms..." – Tanya [23:59]

• Ideas for illustrators to build connections locally and online, ensuring a support network.

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9. Personal Growth and the Power of Collaboration ([25:05]–[25:26])

• "You're more colorful when you band together, aren't you?" – Katie [25:01]
• "Go alone and you'll go faster. Go together, go further." – Katie & Tanya [25:19–25:24]

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Notable Quotes

• On work and identity:
  "It's that, 'I'm a bad illustrator' voice. That's interesting, isn't it? Because this is how your identity is linked to your job." — Helen [05:51]
• On rejection:
  "It's very easy to tip that into, 'I was rejected.'" — Helen [06:19]
• On creative drought:
  "Three days with no inquiries... it's time to retrain. What have I done? I'm a bad illustrator." — Katie [05:23]
• On the need for community:
  "If you're feeling like that as an illustrator and you're feeling lonely, just look. There's so many platforms..." — Tanya [23:59]
• On creative rhythm:
  "When you've just finished a book... it's like you just gave birth. Somebody else is going, 'When are you gonna have the next one?'" — Helen [13:39]
• On collaboration:
  "You're more colorful when you band together, aren't you?" — Katie [25:01]

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Memorable Moments

• Tania’s business brainwave: custom leopard-skin urns ([01:03])
• Katie’s "nanny agency for posh families with a beach house" fantasy ([04:56])
• Helen and Katie’s picture book pitch at Walker Books ended with an Irish jig ([16:46])
• The hosts’ honest sharing of creative loneliness, and Tanya’s story about rediscovering community after years alone ([23:37]–[24:38])
• The group reflecting on how Good Ship Illustration changed not only their careers, but their sense of belonging ([20:43]–[21:19])

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a heartfelt, funny, and relatable exploration of the emotional realities behind being a professional illustrator. Helen, Katie, and Tanya keep the tone reassuring, reminding listeners that they aren't alone in their anxieties—and that creative companions are essential, not optional, on this "Good Ship."

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Transcript

[Helen]

Okay, you too. What would you do if you weren't illustrators? Who's going first?

[Katie]

I vote Tanya.

[Tanya]

I have thought this a lot, but it's like looking over the edge of a cliff. I've got no idea. What would I do? They're a bit too interrelated to be a designer or stuff like that, but that's too close. But I did have this brainwave if it was just about how would you bring the money in? Because I could faff around the rest of the time. I'd be quite happy now just trying to sort the house out because I've ignored that for 20 years. And obviously the garden, which is where we're all headed in our later years.

[Helen]

Oh, that's what I would do. Do? Yeah, just write a substack that make me enough money that I could just do the garden.

[Tanya]

Would you want to hear Winning My Money Maker? This is a good one. And I don't want everyone to start copying this because I'm gonna trademark. But my beloved neighbor Natasha died a couple of weeks ago and she was like a Bet lynch character and she only wore leopard skin and black and a bit of glitter. And I said to her daughters about what had they got planned for, and she said, I've managed to find mum a furry leopard skin urn. And I couldn't stop thinking about this because it was Natasha for her ashes to go in a leopard skin urn. And I'm thinking, where did they find that? There must be a custom made urn maker out there. So as there will always be needs for death, I think I'm going into the custom made urn business.

[Helen]

Brilliant.

[Katie]

Have you seen that shop in Edinburgh go as you please and they've got a giant iron brew coffin.

[Tanya]

Oh, I have seen it go as you please.

[Katie]

There's a whole industry in brilliant death stuff.

[Tanya]

Yeah, There was a program on Channel 4 a couple of weeks ago called the Fabulous Funeral Home and it was in Liverpool and Natasha died in Southport and she came from Southport. And I was wondering if the daughters had gone to this specific place because it was the most fabulous funeral directors you could ever imagine. There was waterfalls in there and butterflies flying around and all sorts of things. But yet coffins and urns.

[Helen]

I think you're onto something though, because my friend's dad wouldn't let her go to art school because he said you had to go into a trade that humanity needs, such as building because you always need a shelter, farming because you always need food or hairdresser. That's the bit I Don't get. Yeah, you need a shelter, you need food. But if the world is about to end, hair.

[Katie]

It's low down on the list of priorities, isn't it?

[Tanya]

What would you dictate it if you could do illustration anymore?

[Katie]

So is this like now with my current brain? Just cut out the illustration bit?

[Helen]

Yeah.

[Katie]

Oh, okay. Like, I really enjoy writing and marketing stuff. But then pre this lifetime, like when I was in my 20s, I really did being a nanny. So I would just. I could go back to that. And that's always in the back of my mind, the caveman bit of your brain that thinks everything's gonna go wrong in a minute. It's like, I can be a nanny and people always have children and some true.

[Helen]

It's one of those jobs.

[Tanya]

Yeah.

[Katie]

Somebody wants to go to work with a child. Guarantee it, I'll be there.

[Tanya]

So you've got childbirth and death as our main. And Helen's just in the corner writing about stuff on her substandard.

[Helen]

What would you try and write? Just the boring stuff, like I do now.

[Katie]

I love it. We met up with Gillian o' Mara and she was saying she loves it as well. Even if you're talking about house renovations.

[Helen]

Yeah. Just the dull stuff that we all do every day. I really. I'm just so nosy. So I love reading about that and I like writing about that. I would do the garden. I would make flags or sewing of some sort, like protest flags. Maybe do more protesting with my flags.

[Tanya]

I would like to do that, do a bit more activism so I could keep the show on the road with the customers and then I could just devote myself entirely to activism. Because it's always a work's always a get out, isn't it? I can't go on that march because I'm too busy. Like illustrators lives basically hang around dropping everything because you get offered a job. I don't just think the last 30 years were like that. Always working at weekends and taking on as much as you could. Undercharging and then doing too much work and saying no to people that you couldn't come out and see them after all. So now I think the idea of the urns would keep me in money and I can just go out the whole time, not sit in front of the computer.

[Katie]

Actually, you've got a point there, because the babysitting is quite a time suck. So maybe I would set up a babysitting agency, like a nanny agency, and then I can not do the babysitter.

[Tanya]

That's the bit you liked was the babysitting, wasn't it?

[Katie]

Yeah, that's true. I don't know.

[Helen]

You'd be good at setting up an agency though, because you're really good at marketing and that kind of thing.

[Katie]

I'll do that and then I'll just take on the really nice children. Like posh families with one child and a beach house. And my job is to take them to the beach house in three hours and then go home.

[Tanya]

But you think about this when it becomes famine time in in your job and you don't hear anything for days or you've put something out there that you thought would bring interest on social. Nothing happens. What do you think when there's no work about, do you care?

[Katie]

Yeah, I think every illustrator cares about that, don't they? I saw a thing the other day and it was like one day with no inquiries. Oh, I can have a little rest. Two days with no inquiries. Maybe I'll clear all the shed. Three days with no inquiries. Oh, like it's time to retrain. What have I done? I'm a bad illustrator. And I definitely feel that. I feel like I should be wise enough. It's annoying because there's part of my brain is like, it's fine, you're going to be fine. And then the other part of me is, no, my life is over.

[Helen]

It's that I'm a bad illustrator. I'm a bad illustrator voice. That's interesting, isn't it? Because this is how your identity is linked to your job. So especially as an illustrator, it's quite rare how our job is so integral to who we are. Like good illustrators use their life in their work all the time. It's really integral. So how do you cope with a rejection? Like it's. The work was rejected, but it's very easy to tip that into. I was rejected.

[Tanya]

But I think actors must feel the same as well.

[Helen]

Yeah.

[Tanya]

Because you're putting all that life experience into carrying a character over. So it would be a rejection of you. And they're always going for castings and trying things out. And illustrators are constantly pitching for jobs or putting themselves on naked and on show saying, please hire me. It's quite a vulnerable position to be in the whole time. So when people are talking, talking about going for interviews for full time jobs and they get upset after about say four or five rejections in the first month, you're like, come on, try being an illustrator for a couple of months. You'll be fine. Once you go back to salaried interviews, there'll be a doddle because they're not that easy. You do have to sit and talk with people. We don't have to talk. It's a light touch exchange, isn't it? Someone calls you up or they ignore you, it's as simple as that. But we're constantly trying to, to connect with different clients and publishers, even if it's not quite as painful as having an actual interview.

[Helen]

Then there's the opposite end of the spectrum, where you've just got so much work, you've barely got any life. All you're doing is working. And it's like working out that balance is so hard, isn't it?

[Katie]

And then that thing where you're having a good time, work's really busy, you get a lot done but you don't do any marketing. So then when the work finishes, it stops and you're like, oh, where are all my clients? Haven't done anything.

[Tanya]

And sometimes when, I mean, again, the way the three of us work is completely different. So with you, Katie, if there's always new jobs coming through the whole time, so you notice the silence. If I'm working on a map with, I don't know, a charity or a castle or something like that, it's quite a long term relationship. But not as long as Helen's. So a gap that's as long as the job took. Doesn't bother me. So if the job took three months and I don't hear anything from another client for two months, I'm like, nowadays, I think, oh, that's quite nice actually.

[Katie]

I think I'd be like sent away by that point.

[Tanya]

Two months silence. Would you be just done for people

[Helen]

trying to give me work as often as you do, I would be in a complete spin. It would be a nightmare. I'd be like getting wooden batons and hammering them over my door and snipping my phone. It'd be just terrible.

[Tanya]

I get that exhaustion of being exposed to so many different clients and having to quickly build relationships. Relationships with. But I know you've automated it a lot, which is probably the only way it makes sense. Yeah, because if you were onboarding them every time, talking them through things, educating them and building trust every three times a week, that would just be too much for me.

[Katie]

Yeah, I think I've got accustomed to that level. So like when it does slow down, because I'm in the go, what's happening today? When it slows down, I'm like, what's happened? What's going on? Whereas if it was that pace all the Time. I'd be fine.

[Tanya]

Yeah.

[Katie]

Slowly.

[Tanya]

So maybe we need to take you into the garden with me and Helen.

[Helen]

Yeah.

[Tanya]

We're already hot. We've got one foot out there.

[Katie]

I have no interest in the garden but I like. Except sitting in it while other people make her look nice. Cameron's job.

[Tanya]

Yeah. It is tough on the personality. Especially in the early days when you don't know what rhythm your work life balance is really going to take. Everything seems to be a first time. You work for an agency, then you work for a magazine and different types of clients. There's no consistency or rhythm to it and you don't know how hard you're meant to work. Are you over delivering or under delivering? Yeah. God. The early days would have. I think that's the hardest time.

[Helen]

I think it's really hard for a picture book maker. Early days now because advances haven't really gone up. When I first started it was really easy. I lived in London, I could make maybe one book and a set of baby books a year and be absolutely fine, have spare money, live an easy life in London, it was fine. But over the years the wages just didn't go up. Luckily about the time advances stopped going up, I had some really good sellers. So then royalties came in. But it must be hard for picture bookmakers now because I did feel like I was on a treadmill of make another book just to keep going like money wise as the years went by. But I always had the royalties coming in and without that I think that's hard. So I think for picture bookmakers having other streams of income is essential. Essential now. So having those thoughts of what would I do if I wasn't a picture bookmaker is actually really healthy because writing on substack or doing something else, having an online shop will make being a picture book, make us so much less stressful.

[Tanya]

Yeah. Because you. It stops you saying yes to everything as well. Which is the other trap, isn't it? You haven't got another income stream to prop you up a bit. You could spend weeks on a project that you don't like. That wasn't your core activity anyway. And at the end of it you don't use it in your portfolio because you don't want to be commissioned for anything like that again. But it paid the rent and too much of that can be a real downward spiral.

[Helen]

Yeah.

[Katie]

You want to get to the stage where you're taking on jobs that pay well enough, they've got a bit of breathing room afterwards to do maybe a bit more marketing. Or to recoup, regroup before the next job. Because, yeah, when you're in that treadmill thing, it's horrible.

[Tanya]

A lot of people put one day aside, don't they, purely for marketing, so that they know they'll. But it's quite hard if a job. If the deadline on a job is a bit intense, then all those carefully organized structures for your business life go out the window and you're just working seven days a week to get this thing done.

[Helen]

I used to put a day aside for a few years. I would put a day aside every Friday I would go and draw from life so that I would know what my next picture book was going to be. Because I never. I never. I've always been very lucky that I never had a gap, like a period where I got no work because books take so long to make and I had some books that sold well, so there'd always be another publisher or my publisher saying, can we sign you up for next year or the year after or the year after. So I never had a fallow period, but I did have periods where the ideas were fallow. So they would be wanting the next book lining up. But I would have just come off the back of one book and had no idea what my next ideas would be. So I did go for a few years. Every Friday I would go drawing from life or do something, like go and visit an exhibition or do something creative where another idea might. I might find something else.

[Tanya]

Like artist dates.

[Helen]

Yeah, like exactly. Artist dates. Exactly that. So that my brain would be fed with ideas rather than just sat in my studio working on the previous book.

[Katie]

That must be stressful if they're like, come on, then. Yeah, they're pleasing. Oh, just. Yeah.

[Helen]

And I think that's why every now and again I made a book that I really wish didn't exist, because that need for when. What's the next one going to be? What's the next one going to be? What's the next one going to be? It's quite hardcore that it's really hard.

[Tanya]

Again, that points out that different area in illustration, that picture book author illustrators are a different beast to a service illustrator. So it's a bit of a kind of. It undermines the activity a bit. But we're always working with other people's content, aren't we, Katie?

[Katie]

Exactly. I. That I don't have to think of the ideas. I've got to think of the ideas in terms of making it look interesting. But they're saying the words.

[Tanya]

It's a bit like that Father Ted thing. Like, it sounds really nice being a picture book author, illustrator, but that's a lot of work. Oh, that's what you mean. You've got one idea and you have to have another idea and keep going like that.

[Helen]

When you've just finished a book as well, you feel absolutely. It's like you just gave birth.

[Tanya]

Yeah.

[Helen]

Somebody else is going, when are you gonna have the next one? Then when you're gonna knock the next baby?

[Katie]

Is that like when the midwife comes around, you've given birth two hours ago, and she's like, have you thought about contraception?

[Helen]

That's exact.

[Tanya]

Never need that ever again.

[Katie]

Are you mad? It's exactly that.

[Helen]

Yeah.

[Tanya]

It is so different. It's so all encompassing. Author, illustrator world. You're the real deal. I shouldn't say that, but I think you are.

[Helen]

I'm shaking my head. It doesn't feel like any real deal. I wish I did. That would be nice. I'm gonna. I'm gonna take that in and try and feel like the real deal.

[Katie]

Yeah.

[Helen]

Thank you.

[Tanya]

No, it is because you have that could. It's like fine art. You have decided the content, it's all come from you. Whereas most other aspects of illustration is collaborative or servicing the author or someone

[Helen]

else's content, it is collaborative after you have the first idea, after you have the first baby. So you have the idea and you get excited and you do your development work and then you go and see your team, your designer, your editor, and they get excited. And now you're working together, but you need to go in with something from you. Otherwise how? If it wasn't from you, if it was from them, how would you make that excitement last over the next year? I think that's why I find it so hard to illustrate anybody else's text. Unless there's something about that text that really hits me inside. I can't get excited for more than the first few weeks. Like, it's that difference between I should do this and I really want to. To do it. I think that's why I very rarely illustrate anybody else's work.

[Tanya]

Even so that when you talk about Picture Book World, it makes me feel so jealous. Look, you've got authors and editors and a team of people to work with that does. The other aspect of illustration, it's quite lonely. And the art directors that I work with, I've never met them. Hong Kong. I did know some of them because it was a smaller world and you physically met people at functions and events. But in the uk it's just a disembodied email.

[Katie]

There's not even art directors. I'm sometimes working with your executive assistant. So you will tell them, like, teach them about things.

[Helen]

So how have you found the difference? Because Katie and I, we've been writing together on some children's book stories which will be out soon. You can do a pre order now, actually.

[Tanya]

I'm going to make them talk about it on the next podcast. Spill the beans.

[Helen]

Yeah, pre orders are a huge help, but we'll come back to that. So the difference between working on this picture book idea with Walker Books and your normal client, what's the difference?

[Tanya]

Oh, my God.

[Katie]

Like, where do I even begin? So the picture book writing experience was we met up, had some ideas.

[Tanya]

Yeah.

[Katie]

Helen was like, do you want to write something? I was like, okay. We wrote some, wrote loads of ideas. Big pile of them. Went to Walker Books and basically. Oh no. We emailed them and they were like, we like the ideas. Come and see us, went to see them.

[Helen]

They did a Scottish reel for us immediately as we walked in the office.

[Katie]

That was a good sign.

[Helen]

They put some. It might be in an Irish jig.

[Katie]

It was an Irish jig.

[Helen]

They put some Irish jig music on. They did us a dance immediately. And I looked at Katie thinking, what does Katie think of this?

[Tanya]

You had a human interaction. Oh, my God. I mean that alone. The fact you're interacting with other people while you do this work, it's a revelation.

[Katie]

Just baptism of madness. I'm in the right place. This is excellent. And yeah, so then they give us feedback and felt so excited to rework on them. And then Helen did all the hard work of doing the illustration and now there's a magical. Like, the book is real, it's just completely mind blowing. Whereas.

[Helen]

And we have a WhatsApp chat.

[Katie]

There's a WhatsApp chat where we chat about shelves.

[Helen]

We've had put up wallpaper, dogs, people

[Katie]

getting married, Merry Christmas, like really lovely chats and stuff like that. And there is. It is like there's an actual team, genuine relationship. The editor has been saying this and there are people with. Anyways, yeah, it's. It feels like there's an army wanting this thing to succeed. Whereas the one to one client work that I do for live illustration, it's more like they get in touch the events next week. Are you free? Yeah, it'll be this much.

[Helen]

Okay, get ready, go. Yeah.

[Katie]

Basically then I'm like, okay, here's a form, fill it in. Pay me. Okay, I've paid you. I filled the form in. Cool. Send me the link. Okay, brilliant. I'll log in half an hour early. Okay, I'm here. Everything fine? Yes. Cool. Can you hear?

[Helen]

Yeah.

[Katie]

Can you see?

[Helen]

Yeah.

[Katie]

Okay, done. And then it finishes. I'm like, there's the illustrations. Thank you. And that's it. And then I never see them again.

[Tanya]

And you don't even see the. You don't look at the illustrations again. No, because the content isn't close enough to. For you to love that baby.

[Katie]

Unless it's a really exciting client or something where I'm like, oh, that was actually fun. But, yeah, like this morning I had. I was going through all my clients I've worked for that I can find files for, and I was like, I do not even remember that job. And then click on them and be like, oh, yeah, it was that. And then clicking on other things because I was trying to figure out, like, what industries I work with mainly and stuff for marketing.

[Tanya]

But it's just. Yeah, I know. I looked through piles of paper invoices going back to, what, 1995, endless financial magazines. And those illustrations, I can't even. If you showed me some of them, I'm like, did I do that? Oh, I don't remember. No recognition of the work. And again, there's a. Then that's more service editorial, illustration, maps that I do now I love and I'll keep. But a lot of editorial stuff. You wouldn't even put it in your portfolio?

[Katie]

No. I think when I started live illustrating, I was really excited about it and loved it. And now it's a bit more like, it's just my job and I'll do it and it's done. Whereas the book stuff felt really exciting and fun because I really enjoy writing. And then to see it in book form and read it to my daughter and her laugh, and I was like,

[Tanya]

yes, that's a real thing. Yeah. Interacting with everyone's lives.

[Helen]

Yeah. You're expressing some personality and then feel ownership of it and it laps. Yeah.

[Katie]

Yeah. But, yeah, very different worky experience.

[Tanya]

I have a feeling Katie's gonna have a brainwave in a year or two and we'll be doing a. I don't know whether it'd be completely different or whether it's a pivot. I think you're going to do something different soon. You never stand still long enough anyway.

[Katie]

No, I get excited.

[Tanya]

You'll find a thing.

[Helen]

You're looking through your crystal ball.

[Tanya]

Yeah.

[Katie]

What is it? Tell me what is.

[Tanya]

But what. I think whatever we do, you just need community around you. Because we were talking about that loneliness thing as well and all the tricky bits of being an illustrator. But I think if you can find people that you can just spend a bit of time with, even if you have to travel to go for a coffee with illustrators in another town, it was our salvation in the end, wasn't it? It would have been really hard carrying on now. If we had never met and we'd never done Good Ship and we're still doing these same things on our own, the amount of stuff we would not

[Helen]

have learned from each other, I can't imagine.

[Tanya]

It blows my mind how much we've learned.

[Helen]

I'm so glad that you moved to Berwick and you graduated art school and we met those times for coffee and went, should we share this with other people? What do you think?

[Tanya]

Yeah, go on.

[Helen]

Yeah, go. Ye. Maybe we should. Oh, it's lockdown. Shall we launch? I don't know. Katie's mum said she would join.

[Tanya]

We've got nothing to lose.

[Katie]

We did. My mum came to the AI workshop. Oh, she signed up for it anyway. Did she? I saw it and I was like, mum, why do you need to stand out in the illustration industry?

[Helen]

I love it. I love that. That's so brilliant.

[Tanya]

Because he's been asking us so much stuff, haven't she?

[Helen]

You know, I had my niece staying with us doing some work for Good Ship for us. She, on the morning of the AI workshop, got a text from her dad. It's okay, because I don't think he'll listen and I'm sure he won't mind, but he sent her a message saying, oh, you're working with the Good Ship today. You should talk to them about how brilliant this is. And on Facebook that day, all the local builders were all put in. AI generated images of themselves with all of their, like, builders.

[Tanya]

Oh, it's an awful caricature thing, wasn't it?

[Helen]

Oh, God, yeah. And he just totally doesn't know about the world of illustration. And he was trying to do her a favor for Holly to show us. This shows how great it is.

[Tanya]

I spent the whole week looking at other friends who were design adjacent who were doing that, and I was like, why? You should know better as a designer. Why do you want to fall for Sam Altman's stupid caricature thing and burn up half a lake of water to do that?

[Katie]

That.

[Tanya]

It's just so pointless.

[Helen]

He didn't realize that he sent us it, like, half an hour before we were going live with our AI workshop. It's really good. I don't know why I'm talking about. Oh, yeah, because you were talking about your mum at the.

[Tanya]

Oh, yeah. But before I came back to the uk, I'd just taken part in a group exhibition for the first time in ages with other illustrators. And it was such a brilliant experience. And I met so many people, sold lots of work, felt part of a community. And I remember at the end of it thinking, that is really significant. That is having such a massive impact on me. I don't quite know how to turn this into something later, but I know that it's profound for me personally and really all it was after 25 years of working on my own in a little island in. Not even in a village, no one would be passing by to knock on the door. So it was really isolated. This was such a contrast that I was like, wow, there's another world out there with other people who are doing the similar things and they might help you as well. So when we got back to. When I got back to the uk, I remember when we met up, I kept thinking, I must remember to do things with people because stuff happens. And we did our Christmas fair, didn't we?

[Helen]

That was so cool. That was good.

[Tanya]

And it was our first sort of really dipping our toe into, okay, let's try and do a thing together and sell some of our.

[Helen]

And then we took over a gallery in town the next year. This was pretty good ship. Yeah, we took over a gallery in town and that was a huge hit as well.

[Katie]

We should do something like this again.

[Helen]

Maybe we should. It was good, wasn't it?

[Katie]

Yeah.

[Tanya]

And then it ended up with this. I can't. Like you say, I can't imagine what life would be like if we hadn't all joined together and thought we were brave enough to do some mad things that actually did happen. Even though I look back on that part of my life in Hong Kong, I was really happy. But that isolation is corrosive after a while. You just think, this is it. You just bob along like this. Nothing will happen. So if you're feeling like that as an illustrator and you're feeling lonely, just look. There's so many platforms, whether it's AOI or Instagram or even the good ship Instagram. We have people in the courses saying things like, oh, I'm in Norwich, anyone in Norwich, Or I'm in Vancouver, anyone in Van. There's all these micro groups have opened up everywhere.

[Helen]

Does that little lovely group of illustrators that includes Sam. Bedroom frog collected. Yeah. Pencils on toast who have a zoom call every week.

[Tanya]

There's lots of communities on Instagram, aren't there? Whether they're local or global. But ideally you want something you can physically go to and hang out, make friends because I think the difference is phenomenal. It really changes how you feel about your work and your life.

[Katie]

Yeah. You're more colorful when you band together, aren't you?

[Tanya]

Totally. I would never have been brave enough to even do a podcast now if someone said, oh, you will do podcasts. I feel like not on your life. That's never gonna happen here. Yeah, you go, what does it go? Go together and you go further.

[Katie]

That's the one. Go along, go alone and you'll go faster.

[Tanya]

Go together, go further.

[Katie]

Something like that.

[Helen]

I do.

[Tanya]

Correct. But it's really true.

[Katie]

It's probably completely wrong.

[Tanya]

Okay.

[Katie]

Okay.

[Helen]

Bye bye. Bye bye bye.

[Katie]

Sam.