It’s not too late, you’re not behind, and yessss, you should still start - an interview with illustrator Carys Wright

Summary

Episode Summary: The Good Ship Illustration Episode Title: It’s not too late, you’re not behind, and yessss, you should still start – An Interview with Illustrator Carys Wright
Release Date: April 3, 2026
Hosts: Helen Stephens, Katie Chappell, Tania Willis
Guest: Carys Wright (Illustrator and Writer)

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Episode Overview

This encouraging episode centers on illustrator and writer Carys Wright, who shares her non-linear route into illustration, talks about nurturing creativity through sketchbooks, balancing motherhood and creative growth, the influence of acting and marketing in her artistic voice, and the myth of being “too late” to start an illustration career. The conversation is rich with anecdotes, practical advice, and the reassuring message that creative journeys can begin — or reinvent themselves — at any stage of life.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Finding Your Creative Voice (02:20–04:41)

• Carys’s sketchbook practice reignited during the pandemic, inspired by The Good Ship Illustration’s "Find Your Creative Voice, Fly Your Freak Flag" course.
• She recalls using time in lockdown to experiment with larger sketchbooks, turning the limits of isolation into creative fuel:
  "It felt like I had loads of space… I got a bit addicted and that's been going on ever since." (04:24, Carys)

2. Career Journey: From Acting to Illustration (04:47–08:16)

• Carys discusses a dual passion for acting and drawing, initially choosing drama studies after feeling disconnected from art school’s conceptual focus.
• While working various jobs, including acting and marketing, drawing remained a constant companion:
  "I always felt like I was telling stories with my drawing, and then also through doing plays… it was always there." (05:55, Carys)
• The 2020 theatre shutdown during COVID was a turning point, prompting her to focus on illustration.

3. Building a Career Without the “Traditional” Path (08:48–10:37)

• The first illustration gigs came through theatre connections and personal network.
• Formal mentorship (Picture Hooks’ buddy scheme, PB Rising Stars) filled in gaps from not attending art school, offering portfolio feedback and support:
  "It was really nice to have her help me build my portfolio up… and also helped me create a dummy." (09:56, Carys)

4. Motherhood & Creativity (12:47–15:45)

• Becoming a mother prompted Carys to reclaim the sketchbook as a tool for presence and play: "Having my son made me reconnect with my sketchbooks because I was having to be very present and in the moment." (14:07, Carys)
• She emphasizes not pressuring oneself to “produce” during early parenthood:
  "Don't put pressure on yourself to… make most of this time. If it's something that just gives you a respite… that's great." (15:35, Carys)

5. Portfolio Evolution & Embracing Imperfection (16:55–18:53)

• Portfolios, like creative voices, are always evolving: "It's where you're at now. That can be your portfolio, but it doesn't have to be… This is it forever." (17:21, Carys)
• Deadlines, self-imposed or competition-based, can be motivating—even if you don’t “win.”

6. Creative Voice vs. Client Work (18:53–20:34)

• The struggle to balance client expectations with personal artistic identity is ongoing: "With more work, I'd lost a bit of me… You've got to realign yourself… That's me, and that's what I want to do." (17:46, Carys)
• Repeated engagement with Good Ship’s materials (e.g., “Freak Flag” course) helps ground her creative practice.

7. Tools & Techniques: Digital vs. Analog Debate (20:34–22:50)

• Carys describes adapting her process (Procreate for client work, returning to paint for personal projects).
• Hosts encourage listeners to disregard “rules” about digital vs. traditional media:
  "Just find your creative voice and do the thing you're gonna do… It's all gonna look like it's come from your hands, and that's all that matters." (21:11, Host)

8. Expanding Revenue Streams: Markets & Beyond (22:50–26:41)

• Opening an online shop and participating in local markets brought community interaction and income diversification.
• Live portraits at markets became a surprise hit, satisfying her need for social connection and creativity: "The markets tick that box for me of chatting to people and being… really nice for that." (24:41, Carys)

9. The Many Paths of Illustration (26:41–29:01)

• Carys and the hosts reflect on the breadth of opportunities in illustration — from picture books to branding, live event illustration, and beyond.
• The importance of adaptability and recognizing the human touch in an AI-saturated world: "AI can use what already exists and replicate it, but it can't always do the joining of the dots in the imagination and in the brain." (29:01, Carys)

10. Blending Experiences: Acting, Marketing, and Art (30:48–32:52)

• Carys’s projects have increasingly merged her theater, writing, illustration, and even music background.
• She encourages illustrators to value their unique mix of life and career experiences as part of their creative signature.

11. “It’s Never Too Late” (33:28–36:18)

• The episode’s mantra: career pivots at any age bring richness to creative work.
• Carys reflects:
  "Having come to illustration a bit later in my life… I even then was like, I’m too old… That’s so not the case." (33:28, Carys)
• Age and life experience are assets, not barriers:
  "The more experience of actual life, the better, I say. It brings that extra richness into your work." (34:27, Host)
• Notable quote/adapted wisdom, on not waiting to start:
  "If you feel too old to start, you’re going to be just as old not starting… There’s nothing to lose." (35:35, Carys, paraphrasing Julia Cameron)

12. Permission to Fail & Keep Going (36:18–37:02)

• “Failure is so part of it… If failure was going to stop you trying, then you’re never going to see what could happen.” (36:29, Carys)
• “Making bad drawings is so important as well. Because if you haven’t made any bad drawings, you probably just haven’t made any drawings.” (36:42, Host)

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Notable Quotes

• On Getting Started:
  “You won’t always feel like an expert. You won’t necessarily feel ready, but it’s okay. You can just start, and you’ll learn on the way.”
  — Carys Wright (17:21)
• On Originality in the Age of AI:
  "The imagination part that we have as humans is like… ephemeral. AI can use what already exists and replicate it, but it can't always do the joining of the dots in the imagination and in the brain."
  — Carys Wright (29:01)
• On Evolving Portfolios:
  “It doesn’t have to be perfect. Like, it’s where you’re at now. That can be your portfolio, but it doesn’t have to be… This is it forever.”
  — Carys Wright (17:21)
• On Not Being “Too Late”:
  “Having come to illustration a bit later in my life… I even then was like, I’m too old… That’s so not the case.”
  — Carys Wright (33:28)
• On Failure:
  “Failure is so part of it. If failure was going to stop you trying, then you’re never going to see what could happen.”
  — Carys Wright (36:29)
• On Permission to Begin:
  “If you feel too old to start, you’re going to be just as old not starting.”
  — Carys Wright, paraphrasing Julia Cameron (35:35)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:20] — Carys’s sketchbook journey
• [04:47] — Transition from acting to illustration
• [08:48] — Early illustration commissions & mentorship
• [12:47] — Balancing motherhood and creativity
• [16:55] — Portfolio evolution and permission to progress
• [18:53] — Creative voice vs. client expectations
• [20:34] — Digital vs. analog: tools and anxiety
• [22:50] — Building income streams: online shop & markets
• [26:41] — Expanding the definition of illustration
• [29:01] — Human imagination vs. AI art
• [30:48] — Bringing together acting, writing, and drawing
• [33:28] — It’s never too late to start
• [36:18] — Embracing failure as creative fuel

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Memorable Moments

• Carys hilariously admits everything in her post-motherhood memory is “before or after I was pregnant” (12:26).
• Hosts riff on Julia Cameron’s “it’s never too late” wisdom with laughter and warmth (35:44–36:18).
• The admission that "if you haven’t made any bad drawings, you probably just haven’t made any drawings" brings the episode’s truths home with playful honesty (36:46).

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Conclusion

This episode offers both practical advice and heartening reassurance. Carys’s story exemplifies that creative careers are winding, that portfolios and voices will always evolve, and that neither age, non-traditional paths, nor parenthood should be barriers to starting or restarting your creative journey. If you’ve ever wondered if you’re “too late” or “too behind”—this episode is your invitation (and permission slip) to begin.

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Links:

• [Carys Wright’s Website and Instagram]
• [Carys’s Substack: Adventures with a Pen]
• [Good Ship Illustration Freebies & Courses]

For Julia Cameron’s exact quote and more resources, see the show notes.

Transcript

[A]

This week was speaking to Carys Wright. Carys is a London based writer and illustrator and she sailed on the first ever good Ship illustration voyage of our Find your creative voice, fly your freak flag course way back in 2020. Her first illustrated book, the Curious Cat and the Lord Mayor's show was commissioned by the Lord Mayor of London's office and her clients include Tottenham Hotspur, FC Zoetis and award winning theatre company Clean Brick. Karis's book project the Day the Dragon Came was longlisted for the De Pictus Unpublished Picture Book Showcase 2025. She was part of the Picture Hooks body scheme in 2025 and she won mentorship with the PB Rising Stars program in 2023. Let's have a listen, shall we? Okay, I see you in there. Hey. Okay. I am so. This was third time lucky. I am honoured today to be. I'm here with Carys Wright, who is a hardcore good shipper. And I had the pleasure of meeting Carys in real life with our human faces in Edinburgh recently at the Picture Hooks speed dating networking event thing, which was very cool. Me and Helen just elbowed our way into that event. But anyway, would you like to introduce yourself?

[B]

Oh, sure, yeah. It was lovely to meet you guys there. I'm Carys, I am an illustrator and yeah, hardcore good shipper. I'm honored to be given the title. I have been a fan of the Good Ship since I guess since you guys started, which I think was back in 2020 and I was on some of the early art clubs listening to the early podcast, the do it yourself at home 10 minute drawing exercises, which was perfect for those days when we were just. I was stuck inside our studio flat at the time, the flat that we'd moved into being like, this is fine, right? Because we're out all the time and it doesn't really matter that it's one room and a half. So yeah, that was. That kind of kept me sane actually. It was really good. But yes. Hello.

[A]

Hello. Lovely to have you here and it's. Yeah, I feel like everybody I've spoken to so far has been a good shipper who's come on the podcast has been a hardcore good shipper. And that must be one of the qualifications. Maybe. But I'm really excited to speak. Yeah, you can't just dabble it. Go straight in. So I'm excited to speak to you today about finding your creative voice and. And I think maybe a good place to start with that is talking about your sketchbook practice because I've seen your sketchbooks in real life and they are delicious to behold. Yeah. Well, have you always been an avid sketchbook keeper?

[B]

Yeah, good question. So I think like lots of illustrators, I drew a lot as a child and had stacks of A4 paper printer paper waiting for my felt tip pens and did all of that. And I think when you're a child, that comes quite easily. Grew up was doing art GCSE and art A level, which is great, but it's a lot to do with beautiful pencil drawing of a bunch of flowers or stuff like that. So it's not so much. It's not so much creative flow, let's say. And then I kept a sketchbook throughout early adulthood, but it was like now and then. It's something I do when I was maybe on holiday or it wouldn't be the date a daily thing. And I think it was really. I'd been doing a bit more drawing before Freak Flag. I'd been drawing a bit on my commute into work and my other job. I think I was even temping at the time. This is when I was still working as an actor and drawing on my lunch breaks and stuff like that. But it wasn't really until I took a court, took the good ship course that I got really into my sketchbook again. And I think was two things Covid happened. So as I mentioned, we didn't have anywhere to go. So I was a lot in my local park at the time drawing. And also, yeah, the Freak Flag course has a whole module on sketchbooking. So I was like, great. And I think I bought myself an A4 sketchbook, which felt very daring at the time because I'd had a five max sizes.

[A]

I hope you ever go big or go home.

[B]

Exactly. I used some of the money that I would have spent like going to the pub or whatever, but obviously couldn't do that. Ordered a nice sketchbook and yeah, it felt like I had loads of space and it was. Yeah, it was a really nice feeling and I got a bit addicted. And that's been going on then ever since. So I guess five years or so.

[A]

You mentioned you were an actor. How did I miss that? So I know that you've mentioned the theater and stuff where you're an actor.

[B]

What? Yeah, a bit of a funny journey. And I'm always interested in hearing kind of other illustrators that have perhaps come from a different route or haven't gone the traditional school, art school illustrator path. So for me, I, like I said I always loved art as a kid, but I did also love Plays and acting and stories. I think the two were similar in a way because I always felt like I was telling stories of my drawing and then also through doing plays and that kind of stuff. And I was a bit torn. I got to 18 and I was like, oh, I don't know what to do. And I think actually one of the things that made me not go to art school was I assumed I'd do fine art. And then I went to look around a couple of art schools and it was all like super conceptual stuff and I was like, oh, but I just want to draw. I don't know if this is for me actually. I guess at the time I didn't really know about illustration and that could have been a path, but I felt a bit like, oh, I don't. I don't know about this. Don't know what I'd make work about really on a conceptual level or like big sculptures about capitalism or whatever. Sorry, that's not to do your fine art degrees down. It's just I was a bit lost.

[A]

I think you're so right though, especially when you're like what, 17 or 18? And they're like, okay, what do you think about the world and all the social structures?

[B]

And I want know anything.

[A]

I just like drawing pictures.

[B]

Yeah, that was how I felt. Whereas with acting like the theater side, that had a bit of a clearer route. It was like drama school. Although again, I didn't get into drama school actually I went to university in the end and studied English and drama. I went to Trinity and I had the best time. So I'm so glad actually that I did do that and I think it's given me lifelong friends but also lots of other things and kind of skills and bits that now feed into my illustration. But that's why, yeah, so I did. Let me pause, I went to. Yeah, I went to Trinity without pursuing the art school thing. I think looking back now, actually the drawing aspect was always there. So I ended up doing like people's posters for the plays they were putting on and I did a module in costume design, which I loved and yeah, that kind of thing. So it was always there. And then I moved back to London, worked as an actor for about five years and made some of my own work as well. So did a bit of writing and was drawing in my sketchbook alongside it. Like I said to you about drawing on the tube or in my sort of lunch, half hour lunch breaks when I was working on different receptions and doing all sorts of odd jobs to pay my bills. So it was really when Covid happened and forced me to stop. Like all theaters closed within a day. I actually had a show that was meant to open that day that didn't happen and then there was just no work. So, yeah, luckily I was. I had. I was working as well at part time in a marketing role, which I still work as now actually as my kind of other job to. To keep myself afloat. But. So I went full time on that. But I felt such a. Oh my gosh, what can I do that's creative? Because I feel a bit like lost and I don't know what I'm doing. Yeah. Then luckily Goodship came along and provided a bit of an outlet for that and again then led me to think I've always not quite followed that path of following my drawing and seeing where that could take me. Let me see what happens. And that's what sort of led me to where I am today. So working as an illustrator.

[A]

Yeah, it's always so interesting to hear. I think like creative people, like, the creativity comes out whether you like it or not and it just comes out in different.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like spilling out wherever you go. Like even if you are in. Because obviously acting is very creative as well. But you're still like creating the posters and writing and drawing as well. Like I love that.

[B]

Yeah. Making set, like painting sets and. Yeah, all sorts. So it's always still there. I really agree with that. Can try and squash it down but it'll always come back. See. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And so that was. I can't believe it. But that was six years ago now. What. So how has Life looked since 2020? What's been going on?

[B]

Yeah, lots more drawing. So I think for a couple of years just was filling sketchbooks and getting perhaps more. I did get a few. My first illustration gigs were through theatre companies that I knew of actually. So that had worked with me in other ways. Were then hiring me to illustrate for them. So that was a nice kind of little segue. Started doing some commissions for people like of their dogs or cats or whatever that was. That was great. I was like, oh, okay, so I can earn money from this. Got really into picture books again. Reading was such an important part of my childhood and picture books, especially the ones I had as a kid are like ingrained, I think on my brain. I can still see the kind of key spreads and pictures. So I got a chance to revisit that passion, which has been brilliant and working towards. Yeah. Making some dummies, doing a few schemes. So you mentioned the picture hooks body. Not buddy scheme. Yeah, buddy scheme, which I did last year, which was fantastic. What's your buddy organization? I had Mariajo Ilustrajo who wrote Flooded a few years ago and she was fantastic. It was just really great to get some like direct feedback on my work as well. Because again, because I didn't go to art school, I'd never had that experience of having a critical or feedback really. I've built a bit of a network of other illustrators that sometimes we share our work and kind of comment on it and things like that, but not formally. So it was really nice to have her help me build my portfolio up and then also helped me create a dummy, a new dummy that I was working on at the time. So it was yeah, really great. And just having someone to just be there as a bit of a place where you can ask questions as well was great.

[A]

It's so good to have like somebody's brain to pick as well and have like formal accountability. If you're building a portfolio, I'm going to go away and do this and

[B]

come back exactly that. Yes. We'll meet in a month and we can chat about what you've done. I'm like, okay, I better do that then. It's good because I'm definitely someone that needs deadlines, I think. So even if they're self imposed, like competitions have been really good for that. Even if you don't get the. If you don't win, which I don't think I've won anything, but that's fine. It's like just useful as a deadline and a brief as well. And it helps you build your portfolio. So that's the kind of thing I need, I think, to move forward. But before that I also did a mentoring scheme called PB Rising Stars. It's actually an American scheme and that was great as well. So got to work with an illustrator there as well, Cynthia Cliff, who's based over in the us. So yeah, just getting to know the networks a little bit. And I've had. Yeah. Then I illustrated my first book in 2023 and that was actually for the Lord Mayor of London's office. So not with a traditional publisher. But the Lord Mayor of London changes every year. This is the person who's in charge of all the guilds that still sit within the City of London. So the Square Mile City of London. And every year they do a charitable project and the Lord Mayor at the time wanted to make a picture book for the children that all went to school within the square Mile. So I was hired as the illustrator for that, which was great. I also designed it and did quite a lot of the things myself, so it was a real, like, baptism of fire. And I felt like I learned loads because I was like, okay, I. I just need to put this artwork together and make it happen. So that was really great. And since then, I've worked with some quite big clients, like Tottenham, the football club. I illustrated their. Their Christmas story. What was it? 2024? Can't remember. Yeah, I think it was 20. No, 2023. I think it was before I had my son. I can't remember.

[A]

Things melted.

[B]

Yeah. And everything in my brain is, like, before or after I was pregnant? I. I can't quite remember there, but that was really great. And, yeah, just kind of.

[A]

It's a good sort of path into the next bit. So when was your son born? Because I feel like that changes everything, doesn't it? Like, how much you can work, how much you don't want to work as well. And it changes your priorities completely, doesn't it?

[B]

Yeah, it definitely does. So I had my son almost two years ago, so it's nearly two. So February 2024, he was born and I was on maternity leave because I still kept my. I've still got my marketing job as well. So I was on maternity leave from that, which was great. Oh, no. I'm remembering now that Tottenham was when I had him in the background, actually. Yeah. So I was on maternity leave from my marketing job and maternity leave. Let me be clear, like, it's not a holiday in any way, shape or form. It's really tough. But I did have a bit more time to draw at the same time, so it was like both sides of the coin, especially when he was really tiny. So, yeah, spent a bit of time drawing him and that could be like five minutes, honestly. But again, I think it. Having my son made me reconnect with my sketchbooks because I was having to be very present and in the moment. And I think sketchbooking helped with that. And also I've got a lovely record now of him growing up. Like, months, they change so quickly, don't they, in those first. Especially in those first sort of six weeks. And I definitely didn't draw him every day, but I made an effort to capture some of that time we had together. That was really great. And I think in that summer, when he would have been about six months or so, I did the three materials challenge, which some other good shippers run. So that was another good way to draw every day and just have a play. And my sketchbook, I think, then again became a place of play. I think when there's not a sort of end goal with it, it can. That's what it does. It's just like somewhere to experiment. So it let me play with new materials and also just capture. Yeah. Time with my son. So that was great. And I think during my maternity leave from my other job, I just felt like I had more mental head space for my kind of creative inner life and where I wanted to take my career. So I think I did, like a website update, started to think more about selling prints and kind of other things were starting to occur to me. And, yeah, that's. That autumn I got approached by Tottenham and I did do the job with him in the background. I just could have completely forgotten that he was like. Yeah, because I remember speaking to their team and he was at, like, run in between rooms because he was just learning to. To pull himself up and potentially falling over and all of that kind of stuff. So it definitely is a struggle.

[A]

That is so impressive even that you managed to get that much drawing done, because I did a very short maternity leave, but the drawing thing was hard. And then I felt like the window of her being small and not just grabbing the pen off me or the pencil or wanting to get in the sketchbook, that window is so short. Because now even if I look at my iPad, she's, can I do painting? Nope, that's my boring work iPad. You do not touch that.

[B]

So, yeah, hats off to you.

[A]

And even to get drawing done nearly every day is amazing.

[B]

Yeah, most days. And. And it's. Again, that just was what worked for me. I don't. I think anyone that's having a baby and that's artistically inclined, don't put pressure on yourself to. I must make this. Make most of this time and stuff, because there's so many other pressures that you're going to be dealing with as a new mum. I just. Yeah, don't let that be one of them. But if it's something that maybe could just give you a bit of a break or a respite and a bit of time to be creative, then that's great. Yeah, Take what I'm saying with a pinch of salt, I think, as well. But, yeah, just. So where was I? So then when I went back to work last year, I think I'd already done a fair bit of looking at my illustration business and thinking about where I wanted it to grow. So I think I had applied to Picture Hooks within that time as well and got the place and all of that. And then last year was really about focusing on that and building my portfolio up again. It's portfolio is something you're always working on though, isn't it? So I wanted to do this big refresh of it. It's partly because I'd been started to work in a slightly different way, so I wanted it to reflect that. But I know that in a year or so I'll probably be like, oh, I need to do a refresh. But it's really just a constant thing, I think, which again, the good ship's been really helpful to make me realize it's okay. It doesn't have to be perfect. Like, it's where you're at now. That can be your portfolio, but it doesn't have to be. This is it forever. I must sign my name in blood and I can't change it.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, it's really. Everything is in progress, isn't it? Like you're finding a creative voice is forever an ongoing, long, lifelong project. Your website, which is basically a portfolio that's never ever finished and yet your portfolio is always evolving as well. I think having a portfolio is the big first thing. People get so in their head about it that they don't even bother making a website or they don't even make a portfolio because they're so scared of doing it wrong or not having it exactly how they want it.

[B]

Yeah, definitely. And I think. I think it's good Chip that has said to me, like, you can just start. Just start doing it. And I really believe in that. For anything you don't, you won't always feel like an expert. You won't necessarily feel ready, but it's okay. You can just start and you'll learn on the way and it doesn't really matter. Maybe it's the elephant phrase. I can't remember. Eat the. What is it?

[A]

The way to eat your elephant is one teaspoon at a time.

[B]

That's it. One teaspoon. Poor elephant. But yeah, that's quite a good one. Do you remember? And yeah, the freak flag stuff like keeps coming back, I think. I think that's partly maybe why I wanted to redo my portfolio. I felt like actually with getting more work, I'd lost a bit of me in that. And I think it's maybe always going to be a case of you've got to realign yourself. You navigate to. Oh, actually that's what I'm really interested in. And that's me. And that's what I want to do because as I maybe got better technically, I don't know, and like work for different clients that wanted different things and you can get a bit lost, I think. And it's important to have that time to come back and be like, oh, no, it's okay. This is actually my like main values or like what I'm really interested in. So I've definitely come back and done bits of the Freak Flag course again in subsequent years, which has been really nice. Like I was even looking at it the other day, thinking about my branding, which I was learning about on the business course, Business club, but I was like, ah, actually I need to look at my kind of weirdness again to. To inform that. So it's. They're all connected.

[A]

That's so good. Absolutely. And I feel like we hear that so much and I think we've all experienced it as well. Like Mi Helen, Tanya, that thing. Well, work is going. When you're working with more clients, it's so hard to kind of stay in your weirdness and remember who you are.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Just be like totally sucked into. Well, this makes money and I'm just gonna do this. I will get work. There's like a balance, isn't there, of like getting client work, but also staying true to your own freak flag at the end of the day. So.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And that's great that you're in an illustration business club as well. I love to hear it.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, it's great. I mean, I actually still haven't finished it, but that's okay. I'm doing it one. I don't think anybody has and yeah, it's been really helpful. What was I going to say on that? Can't remember. Oh, I was just going to say I think maybe this is a. Maybe this is covered as well in Freak Flag, like digital stuff because I. So I was saying about the Tottenham job. I had my son, but it was also quite a tight time frame, so I decided to do that work on my iPad, which I still stand by that decision because I just thought they might have loads of changes so I need to do it in layers just in case. And that was great and it worked well. And I felt like I learned a lot about how to use Procreate to. To make work. And it has a slightly older field and picture book, so that's fine. But then I was like, oh, but actually I love paint, so let me go back and. And experiment with that again and think about line and how it can be a bit messier and More free. Like my sketchbook work. So it's. Yeah. You're always jumping between the different ways of working, I think, and trying to find something that works for you at the time and that fits back into maybe what I was saying about the realignment piece. And you've got to navigate. Yeah.

[A]

And if you feel more confident in your creative voice, whatever tool you're using, whether it is digital or analog, I feel like your voice comes through anyway. So it's almost. You don't even worry about it. Because people sometimes come in and they're so worried about, oh, I need to get an iPad, or I must work digitally. Or even now I'm seeing people saying, oh, I can't work digitally because people think it's AI. And I don't want people to think it's AI, so I must work analog. And I'm like, it does. It really doesn't matter. Just find your creative voice and do the thing you're gonna do and whatever. Like, whether you're cutting out and doing collage or painting or, like, doing some crazy digital stuff, it's all gonna look like it's come from your hands, and that's all that matters.

[B]

Yeah, definitely. I think. Yeah. I was one of those people, actually, that thought, I can't do digital artwork, so I can't use Illustrator or Photoshop. So I don't. I can't be an illustrator. That's not gonna work. But, no, I saw sense. I think, again, Freak Flag was like, it's fine. You can make work however you want. You can do finger painting if you want. It'll still be your work. So that definitely. Yeah. If anyone's listening, that still feels that way. Please don't worry. I still can only do very basic things on Photoshop. And that's okay. Yeah.

[A]

That's what YouTube's for, isn't it? Idea YouTube. How do I do this thing? Show me step by step. Like, even I've done, like, courses in it, and I still just go straight to YouTube and ask it how to do things.

[B]

Yeah. Because there's just always going to be more tools. And you're like, oh, my gosh, I can do this. Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Let me go down a rabbit hole and. Yeah. Learn about this tool. But, yeah. And actually, I think having seen Helen's work, I think when I was doing the picture. Picture book course, perhaps was the time when she was working digitally. I can't remember, but there was a time when Helen made a couple of books on her iPad. And that, I think, really helped me as well realize that your voice is still can. It can still be consistent across digital, handmade, traditional, doesn't matter. So that was really helpful as well. As well as all her tips about don't zoom in, it's okay was really good.

[A]

And the not zooming in tip has saved my life as well, because it does. You can notice it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And yeah, people can't zoom in on a book, so you shouldn't necessarily zoom in on your screen, even though it's tempting. And keep your brushes few and consistent and all that kind of thing has been really helpful.

[A]

I know you mentioned markets and selling things online. Maybe this, maybe that was. Was that your evolution from thinking more commercially once you felt like you found your creative voice a bit and be like, let's add some income streams. What did that look like for you?

[B]

Yeah, definitely. So I think I'm trying to remember when I opened my online shop and I can't quite remember. I think it could have been on maternity leave, so. So I just added a shop section within my. My. My website's on wix and that's got its own inbuilt shop function. So that was easy, really easy to do just some prints of some of my sketchbook pages and they were quite popular. So I was like, I wonder if I could do markets. So I did my first market, I think November 2024 maybe, and I've done them. It was great. It was a local market and I'm lucky. I live in quite a sort of arty area, as it turns out. Like, there's lots of makers in South London, lots of them. Other people that were doing similar things were there. Or lots of people with ceramics or fabrics or whatever it might be. So I think the person that runs this particular market is Maple Road Market, if there's anyone local, has nice taste and was really welcoming. So I did my stall there before Christmas. Now that also makes a difference because people are looking for presents and things. But, yeah, it went well and I think that was the first time I also did my live portraits, which have turned out to be now probably the main thing that people buy at my market stalls. So I've done a few more markets since. I've been doing them for about a year and at the last one I did. So exactly a year later I was basically back to back doing portraits and I was like, oh, my gosh, I can't sell prints and do portraits at the same time. It's really difficult, which is a lovely problem to have and I'll try and Figure it out to the next markets I've got coming up.

[A]

You're gonna have to train that child fast. Handle sales.

[B]

You press this button and take the money and put it in a nice bag. Actually, I don't even have bags. I should probably do that. But, yeah, it was. It's been really nice. And I think one of the. Actually one of the reasons that I didn't want to work as an artist originally, like way back when I was 18, is I thought that meant you'd have to work and just be solo all the time and just not ever see anybody else. I don't think that's 100% true. I do think it can be lonely because you're often at your desk. But as someone that's maybe a bit more extroverted, I think I'm probably a mix, really, which we. Maybe we all are. Like, I need my own time and space as well, but the markets tick that box for me of chatting to people and being really like, yeah, meeting loads of different people, talking about my work, having a bit of a laugh. Like, it's really nice for that. And it's just a day and I can do that. And it's actually quite overstimulating for me, but that's fine because it's just a day. So it's. This is really intense. I'll do this and then I'll do another one in a month or two months or whatever. So it's. It's quite a nice thing to add to your kind of revenue stream list, if that's something that you also would enjoy, I think, which not. Not everyone would. And that's fine as well. Just do your sales online. So, yeah, I think just with experimentation you'll find like, I have found the different bits that work. Like, I'd love to. And again, I'd love to look. Learn more about the kind of live illustration that you do. I haven't done any, but I'm interested, especially because my marketing role is more corporate. So I feel like I can see it from that client perspective as well as to why it would be so useful for businesses to have that kind of visual capture of what all the kind of buzzwords and jargony strategy stuff that goes on. Yeah, but yeah, I mean, yeah, the

[A]

fact that you do live portraits at events, like markets. Sorry, it's basically the same thing doing live portraits at events. And I know loads of people are doing really cool things. It's a slightly different market, isn't it? The portrait thing versus graphic recording pictures of what they're talking about rather than drawing the people. But yeah, it's funny, the lanes blur a bit and corporate people get in touch. We just want a creative person to keep us awake because it's so boring.

[B]

Anything. And actually, you're right. I've seen some on some, some on your jobs board. I've seen some of the briefs come in and it's more. We want you to capture this event of hosting panels or. Yeah. Having a symposium on this small fungus. No, whatever. It might be like sometimes they're super niche, aren't they? Which I love seeing. So, yeah, that kind of one would be a good. Maybe a benefit for now because it's people, not the concepts. But yeah, such an interesting path. And also I think so cool that illustration can apply to anything because there's such a range of businesses there that are looking for our services as illustrators and that's. Yeah, it's pretty cool. So I think when you first start and you think, oh, I got to just do magazines, maybe website stuff or books and that's it. So not the case.

[A]

Yeah, you're so right. Because that is that when you're starting out, you have that thing of, okay, I can be a picture book person or I can be an editorial person and those are my two paths as an illustrator. And then, yeah, get into illustration and like, wait a minute, like I can create my own products and sell them or I can illustrate branding for people or I can. There's unlimited things that you can do with illustration. I think if you can think of like this would be like commercial business hat on. If you can think of any problem or pain point somebody has, there's probably a way that illustration can help it in some way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think especially now with AI and everything the way it is. We had the AI workshop earlier this week and we were talking about. Companies are using illustration now because it's so friendly and human and welcoming. It's like the ultimate. It soothes the apocalyptic feel that AI stuff can have. Like if you look at Claude, Claude's branding is gorgeous. The Google AI1 logo and they've got like a cream background. I'm like, it's beautiful. But there's.

[B]

Someone's done this by hand.

[A]

Yeah, it's got this hand drawn, trusted, human feel to the branding and I'm like, that speaks volumes for where we're at.

[B]

Yeah, definitely. AI, I think it has, obviously has its benefits, but I, I was even looking today, I saw a post on Instagram that was like, AI interpretation versus a Children's interpretation of animals that don't exist yet. And it was so interesting because it was like, the AI ones looked quite, like, sophisticated, obviously. They had shading and they had texture, and they look like real animals, imaginary, fantastical animals. But the children's ones were just so much cooler and they were genuinely things that don't exist, whereas the AI ones were like hodgepodge of different things, like a dragon with a fishtail or blah, blah, blah. And it just made me think, like, that can never, Hopefully, I don't think can ever be replicated, because it's like the imagination part that we have as humans is like, in our. It's such an ephemeral thing. AI can't really take that. So AI can use what already exists and replicate it, but it can't always do the joining of the dots in the imagination and in the brain. So, yeah, it's really interesting. We're in a funny time, aren't we? Yeah.

[A]

I think human brains do like unhinged thinking, whereas AI is going with algorithms and blending existing things. I want to do this for no reason.

[B]

Yeah. I just want to. Whereas I just, like. I'll give you the top three benefits of this. If you want, I can turn it into this.

[A]

I'm like, want me to draft an email? No, stop it. Stop it. So I knew you were in the theater, but I didn't realize you were an actor. So that's very exciting to hear your kind of journey from being an actor, being an illustrator. And also, I feel like marketing is very creative, so it doesn't surprise me that you're in a marketing role. Part. Is it part time?

[B]

It is, yeah. It's four days a week at the moment, I think. Yeah. To speak to both of those. I think even thinking about the different revenue streamers as an illustrator, I think the different sort of hats you can wear as a creative can and should be maybe varied as well. So I think even in my own head, I was very much like, I'm an actor. That is it. I must take it very seriously. And maybe had not thought about bringing in some of the other things I'm interested in. In 2023, just before I had my son, and I haven't really made any theater work since, but I worked on a show that I wrote, but that also had some of my drawings in it, like, animated behind me when I was performing. And I was like. That felt like a really exciting mishmash of different things I'm interested in. And, like, I'm really. I'm really interested in having to. In doing potentially more of that as I grew up, like writing my own stories and illustrating those or thinking about how things could be different forms. Oh yeah. And I wrote some music for that as well with, with a proper composer. But thinking about the different forms that things can take is really cool. And I think. And jumping back to freak Flag, I think that's why I really latched on to some of the stuff that's in that course because it's not just what pictures do you like, it's oh, but what. I don't want to give away too much of what's inside the course, but think outside the box about what's inspiring or like what has made an impression on you. And that could be like my granny's, I don't know, jam that I used to spread on my toast and like, it doesn't have to be what you'd expect or like within a certain box. And I think that's, I think that is, I don't know, something that excites me I guess, as a creative and a person that does lots of different, has lots of different interests and like different things. And yeah, with the marketing thing, I think I just snuck into this role because I had copywriting on my CV and I'd done marketing in theater before, so. And then I've now I'm, yes, I'm within the, the corporate beast, but I maybe can bring in some creative insight as well.

[A]

So, yeah, it's like prime example of the creativity comes out everywhere. And your experience, your life experience, then your actual work experience all blend together into this thing that is your creative voice which you're constantly excavating and finding and building on and refining. So it's so inspiring to hear and I know there will be so many people listening that are also actors or they're also in marketing or they're also just in a place where they're figuring out how to balance having a child and finding their creative voice. So it's been so good to, to hear your story. So thank you for sharing it also, so generously.

[B]

You are welcome. It's been so nice to chat to you and yeah, hopefully it's helpful for people to just hear. I love, I'm so nosy. I love hearing other people's like paths into illustrating and honestly having come to illustration a bit later in my life. So like late 20s, I guess when I start, when I made the shift, I even then was like, I'm too old. I haven't gone straight into this. So I'M gonna fail. And what's been really nice is that's so not the case. And I've met so many illustrators that have come to this career in their 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, and plus. And that's so exciting to me that you can. It's never too late to do it. And actually bringing whatever you've done before and your life experience. There's lots of graphic designers, there's lots of architects, there's some people that have come from science, like, so many different career paths before being illustrators. And that's actually just giving you more to feed into your. Your creativity and your freak flag, which is, yeah, really cool.

[A]

Yeah. The more experience of actual life, the better, I say. So it brings that extra richness into your work.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I think so. And again. Yeah. Because we are all different. And that's what's. That's what's nice, that's what's exciting. That's why we're not AI.

[A]

Exactly. Yes. 100%. What a good message to end on. Like, it's not too late ever.

[B]

Oh, yeah, definitely. And I still need to tell that to myself because I am a very impatient person and sometimes I'm like, it's not going very quickly. And because I think everyone's quite strict on themselves with their own careers. Maybe. Maybe that's just. I don't think it's just me. So you can easily think I'm not doing very well. I'm not doing as well as. So and I should have done this by now. I should have done this by now. But actually, if you take a step back, I think so I have to remind myself it's actually not too late. And actually, it doesn't matter.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

When you start, just start. I think there's a Julia Cameron quote about that. I can't remember exactly, so I'm going to paraphrase. But if the only difference between starting and not starting is that if you. I can't remember. No, it's. I can't remember. I'm too old.

[A]

Gonna be so good.

[B]

It's like. It's like something about if you feel too old to start, you're going to be just as old. Not starting. Or something like that. I have to find it and send it to you afterwards. Yeah.

[A]

We could put it in the show notes.

[B]

Yeah, put it in the show notes. She's so wise. But yeah, I think that's a good one to think about as well. It's like, you may as well. Because if you don't do it you're still the same.

[A]

You'll still be old.

[B]

Yeah. You'll still be old. Anyway, it doesn't matter. I love that.

[A]

Yeah, it's a bit like that one. Like the best time to plant a tree was 25 years ago ago. But the second best time is today. That's a good one.

[B]

Ah, yeah. Maybe that's what I'm thinking of. I'm just making.

[A]

I prefer. Otherwise you're going to be old anyway. Might as well be old and start.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. So nothing. There's nothing to lose, basically. Yeah. There's nothing to lose. Yeah.

[A]

Slap on the butt.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Failure is so part of it. Yeah. As well. Because you learn from doing it. If you don't. If failure was going to stop you trying, then you're never going to see what could happen.

[A]

Definitely.

[B]

Making bad drawings is so important as well.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because they're sure that you're doing it. You haven't made any bad drawings. You probably just haven't made any drawings.

[B]

Yeah, exactly that. And it's okay. You can just start again. Doesn't matter. Throw it. You don't even need to throw it in the bin. You can just turn over a new page in your sketchbook and it's fine.

[A]

Yeah. Plow on anyway.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Thank you, Carys. I'll put all your links and things below so that they can come and stalk you in a friendly way. I think you share the links. We've got your website and your Instagram and you've also got a substack that's exciting. Adventures with a Pen. So we'll send everybody your way. So go and have a look and, I don't know, say nice things to Caris.

[B]

That'll be lovely. Thanks so much, Katie. Great to chat to you.

[A]

It.