← The Good Ship Illustration
The Good Ship Illustration
Pricing your illustration work 💸 & how to handle ghost-clients that disappear 👻 Bit of a scary episode. Sorry about that.
00:20:14
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- [00:10]
A
Hi, welcome to the Good Ship podcast.
- [00:12]
B
We have some juicy questions that have been sent in.
- [00:16]
C
So the first question is all about figuring out your pricing as an illustrator.
- [00:22]
A
This is the biggest question of all, isn't it? It's like a great big secret no one knows the answer to. But you know, other illustrators have some idea and you really want to ask. So it's like jumping in at the meatiest question of all. But it's how long is a piece of string, isn't it, really?
- [00:37]
B
And I feel like some areas of illustration do have very set fees. But then, even then, there's always room for negotiation.
- [00:45]
C
There probably is. Most jobs, I imagine, if they make you an offer, they're anticipating you come back and ask for a bit more. So I'd say there's always wiggle room. You should always go back and ask for more.
- [00:56]
A
Except, like you said, Katie, some illustration jobs have set prices. And magazines, really, those budgets are set. They're quite hard.
- [01:04]
C
They're not let you negotiate at all.
- [01:06]
A
No, because they use a different illustrator each month and they know what their set prices are. If they want a big name for a cover, the New Yorker. I bet those vary a bit, but your average magazine, they're set prices. So don't embarrass yourself by asking there. But other places, whether it's a design group that's approached you, an individual company, that's where negotiation happens, doesn't it?
- [01:30]
B
For me, I found when I started out, I had a fee that a friend had said, that's the minimum you can charge. So that had that as my, like, hourly rate, which is a whole nother ballpark, a whole other kettle of fish talking about whether you should charge hourly. But anyway, ignore that. So I had that as my feet, and every single client was like, yep, cool. Booked you. And I was like, something's going on here. Like, everyone's saying yes too easily. So then I experimented with raising it a little bit and less. Like, some clients started saying no. And then I raised it a bit more because I was still very busy and less clients said yes. And I just kept raising my rate until the amount of inquiries that said yes got to a point where I was happy. And then. And still, I still experiment with that now. So if I feel a bit busy or if I have a baby or something, I've only had one.
- [02:10]
C
But, like, if you have a baby, it sounds like you're always having babies here, there and everywhere.
- [02:15]
B
I was like, I don't actually want to work more, so I'd rather Earn more for one job and have them say yes. So I did it that way. And I think in my industry anyway, there's definitely loads of wiggle room. And also every client has a different budget. Even I find that US clients have a higher budget and are more happy to just pay in advance as well. They pay in advance, which is lovely.
- [02:37]
A
Same with editorial in the U.S. that's why all the British illustrators want their agents to get them jobs. With American publications and things like college alumni magazines, that's the place to get the biggest fees. But often those are run by agents. But yeah, the US pays so much better.
- [02:52]
C
It's the same with picture books. You get more for a picture book in the US because when publishers publish a picture book, they want to sell it in their own country first. So they're imagining how many people are in their country, how many people are going to buy it. And obviously it's just a. It's a matter of scale, isn't it? You've got so many more home customers in America. You have here.
- [03:14]
A
Yeah.
- [03:14]
C
So, yeah, American publishers pay more in the world of publishing. Usually if they're interested in publishing your book idea or if you're going to be an illustrator for somebody's story, they go off and they have an acquisitions meeting. And at that meeting, I've never been in one. I wish I had been in one. I'd love to hear all the discussions. But they decide what market this book might be good for, therefore what this book would cost and then how many they might sell and your sales record as an illustrator. And they put all this in the pot and they work out how much they would be happy to pay you as an advance. So they always come to you with an offer. And at that point I always go back and ask for more because I always assume there's a bit more in the pot. And nine times out of 10, there is. So for me, I can't pull a price out of nowhere. It always starts with an offer from them, and then I negotiate on that.
- [04:10]
A
We need to get an acquisitions person on our podcast.
- [04:15]
C
Oh, I would love to do that.
- [04:16]
A
Would be the way to find out, wouldn't it? It would be really interesting to hear what aspects of your book that they think would be successful overseas and what stuff to avoid so that you can be a global seller.
- [04:27]
C
You know how. I don't know. I can't remember any of the terminology for this, but you know how marketing people divide subsections of the market into named groups, like they name each group. I'VE forgotten what those names are.
- [04:40]
B
Segmenting.
- [04:41]
C
Yeah, they segment it and then each group has a name. Like I can't even give an example. I've forgotten. But one time I was sent an email by mistake from a publisher that was an internal acquisitions marketing email and they said that this book that I was going to be working on was marketed at. And then I think it was like Auntie Margaret's. Yeah, something like that. I'm getting that wrong. I'm just giving you the gist of it. But it named the kind of group of people who they thought would buy this book and then what they would pay for that book and how many they would sell. And you know when you get a chain of emails and you can look through them and it's been around lots of other people and then it ends up with you. I found it in there and thought, oh, fascinating. Oh, that's good. What's that about? It would be really good to speak to a publisher about what goes on in that meeting.
- [05:27]
B
I wonder if they'd share it on the podcast or if it would have to be like inside the picture book press. They might want to keep it a secret more. I don't know.
- [05:34]
C
Yeah, I don't know. We'll ask, we'll find out.
- [05:36]
A
We'll try and do different illustrators get different rates in book publishing. Based on profile?
- [05:43]
C
Yeah, based on profile. I suppose if you're brand new, maybe they'll look if you have a huge Instagram following or you've self published and you've sold a lot of books already, if you've got a kind of ready made market, that's a big help, isn't it? They'll probably pay you more for that because they'll assume that you'll be able to sell them as well. And then if you're an absolute newbie. But some newbies do get paid a lot because you look like a fantastic prospect and they want to keep you and they don't want other publishers to come and snap you up. Some people get paid like a golden handshake to make you only work with them for a period of time.
- [06:14]
A
Yeah.
- [06:14]
C
So you can be a newbie and get a big fee or you can be a newbie and get a small fee because it's a big risk for the publisher.
- [06:20]
A
What about the royalties? They're fixed, aren't they, regardless of your profile as an illustrator? Yeah.
- [06:25]
C
Royalties are usually in the uk. I'm so bad with numbers. But if you're the writer and illustrator, you can expect about 10%. If you're, if you're the writer or the illustrator, you get about 5. I'm guessing some of the really big high profile people maybe. I don't know what Julia Donaldson will get, but I'm imagining she's got some negotiation on that and might get higher.
- [06:47]
B
Julia's doing all right.
- [06:48]
C
Yeah. And when I started out my first book, I think I got 7%, but yeah, it's about 10.
- [06:54]
B
Yeah, I think that applies to most bits of illustration, isn't it? Like the more not maybe not even high profile, but the more clients you've got under your belt, people expect you to charge more, don't they? Because they're like, oh, well, you've worked with these people. You've got a really good proven track record and you've been doing it for a long time. I think that's also another reminder that you can keep raising your fees.
- [07:14]
C
It's less of a risk for them, isn't it? Because they know that you can do the job. They know that your work has been, I don't know, popular or seen by lots of eyes before. So, yeah, it's less of a risk for them. So they're happier to pay the money, aren't they? Yeah.
- [07:28]
A
I love what you said about finding the level, though, Katie, that point of just pushing it up a little higher and a little higher to see what the market could stand. But I think that thing of saying that once you don't want to work so hard, you're prepared to make some really tough decisions and that's often where that really pulls the truth out of the market. And you find you can charge loads more once you play hardball with it. I think I undercharged so much in Hong Kong, it was only in the uk, where I thought it would be more competitive. And because people assume Hong Kong's a wealthy country, you'd think they'd be paying a lot, which they did. The advertising agencies used to pay an awful lot. Especially if jobs were rush jobs and you needed to do them overnight, you could get something like in the region of, I don't know, maybe four or five thousand for a single, maybe two or three images for an advertising campaign. But beyond that, especially for magazines, the pay was quite low and I didn't know to push the prices. It was actually when you were saying at one point, just put your price up 20%, that covers your tax, I was like, whoa, 20%, that's quite extreme. But actually everyone could try doing it.
- [08:36]
B
And for me, when I went VAT registered and had to put my prices up by 20%. Nobody batted an eyelid, nobody was like, how much more like 20% didn't care. So I just applied the 20% across the board, even for clients who weren't in the uk because I was like, people are paying it, so I can charge that now.
- [08:54]
A
But also, it's not like you're a roofer or a painter and decorator. People don't look at a range of quotes going, which one shall I use? You know, one's been in the business for longer. So they have, they're more or less the same industry, but some have more benefits than the others. We're completely individual. So someone has come to you specifically to be you and that's what they want. It would be like us buying some really nice tiles for the kitchen. You only want those tiles, you don't want the other ones. And Illustrators are in a similar market. So you have a lot of clout because you have been specifically chosen by an art director or a marketing agency or a company that want you.
- [09:30]
B
Hopefully you have if you've been flying your freak flag.
- [09:32]
A
Yeah, yeah, that's true.
- [09:33]
B
And that's why you don't want to be just a gun for hire generic illustrator doing trends. Because then they will get a range of quotes and be like, who's the cheapest? Who's going to do it the fastest? Who's the most desperate to work with us?
- [09:43]
A
I've got 12 unicorns in here. Who's the, who's the cheapest unicorn?
- [09:48]
B
And that's another reason why keeping your part time job, if you're still at that stage is a good thing. Because then you've got the part time job stability and you can be a bit more ballsy about, no, I'm not paying, I'm taking that fee. That's too low. Yeah, I think that's always really good.
- [10:01]
A
I think it's just a revelation when you do that hard push and find that people are prepared to pay more. And you think, what have I been doing for four years? I worked for the same company for a long while on their first quote and I would do something for them every three months. And then it got to the point where I was turning down jobs I really wanted to do that would pay more. And I realized, broken down into that hourly rate thing, I was wasting my time on these long winded jobs that were taking about a month to complete. So I said to them, I'm going to have to leave this now because the rate isn't high enough and they came back with almost double. And I thought, so the last seven maps have actually been a 50% rate when you really did have this much money after all. Those moments are just kind of epiphanies really in terms of understanding your own self worth. So being brave as you said, Katie, I think it's the way to go for it.
- [10:49]
C
And you can ask and they say no. And then what's the worst? You know, what's the worst that can happen? They might say no and you'll say, okay, thank you for thinking about it.
- [10:56]
B
Rather than being like, getting okay with people. Saying no is really a good score.
- [11:00]
C
Which leads to the next question, how to deal with ghosts. So what happens if you're ghosted?
- [11:09]
A
This question came in.
- [11:10]
B
This was Nikki Grimm. She said, how do you deal with clients ghosting you? And do you have a rule of how often you'll try before giving up? I don't mean initial inquiries, but actual very keen ones where they send a very clear brief and deadline, etc. That's sad when that happens.
- [11:22]
A
That's brutal, isn't it?
- [11:23]
C
Yeah. Especially if it's something you were really looking forward to doing, something you were excited about.
- [11:29]
B
Yeah.
- [11:29]
A
Number one, though, you might have dodged a bullet. Because if they are so unprofessional that they don't follow up and say, I'm afraid this isn't going ahead now, or we've lost the client. Which you can imagine with a lot of design groups, they will have a brief and they'll come and talk to you and get the prices in, talk to their client, then their client dumps them. But they do have to remember further down the line to speak to all the illustrators and subcontractors that they have spoken to and just let them down gently. But if they can't do that, maybe they would have been a pain to work with.
- [11:58]
B
The red flag, for sure.
- [11:59]
C
Definitely. Yeah. If you keep pushing them and then they say yes, what are they going to be like when you hand in the roughs? Are they going to leave you hanging for a few months and not reply to your emails?
- [12:11]
A
I would think you could. The idea that illustrators are booked out, and I think hopefully most people think like that your time doesn't just drift ahead. As an open diary. You need to remind clients that everything is bookable just the same as you would with any trade or industry. So you can go back to them on that level saying, I've booked two weeks out here, can you let me know if you need to go ahead or not. And I think your professionalism slightly shames their lack of professionalism by asking that.
- [12:40]
B
And in terms of follow ups, I do every two weeks, three times a follow up. And then if they don't, if they haven't replied after three, so basically six weeks later they haven't replied, then it's a clear message that they don't want to go ahead and they just can't be bothered to reply to the email or they're busy or whatever. But I think these commissioners and everybody like booking stuff, booking illustrators. They're so busy that emails, their inboxes will be full. So you don't need to be shy about following up and you don't have to write loads or apologize to say, just following up. See if you want to talk about this.
- [13:11]
A
Yeah, if you want to go ahead with this or not, let me know and I'll move it from my schedule.
- [13:15]
C
I think just never take it personally. I know in publishing you can have a meeting and they get very excited and they might even have a project in mind and they'll talk to you about that. And then you go home and you don't hear anything for ages. And then ages, weeks, months will go by and then all of a sudden they're in touch again. So you should never take it personally because they're probably having meetings behind the scenes. The world of publishing, all of it is. Takes such a long time for a book to be considered in the acquisitions meeting and then planning the publishing date. There are huge waiting times in publishing. Same with sending out samples. If you send out your samples and you don't hear anything, it doesn't mean they didn't like the samples.
- [13:53]
B
You never know what's going on, do you? The person might have left the company, they might have had a budget cut. There might have been some big thing happening.
- [14:01]
C
They might have put your sample on the wall because they love it, but the right project isn't there.
- [14:05]
A
It's one of the most difficult things, being an illustrator. It's such a solo activity in your little cave with no windows that you forget that everyone's out there in corporate world with hundreds of moving parts and juggling lots of different things. And you sit there waiting, especially when someone has offered, potentially offered you a great project and you've built it all into something in your head, which you naturally do, because you've got to build it into your schedule. You need to get excited about work to do a good job. So you've done all the excitement building, thinking, I am so right for this. It's not too big for me. I can take it on. It's going to be the next six months and then nothing happens. I think they forget big companies, forget what they're doing to small illustrators. It's. They can't afford to care that much about us. But our mindset needs to be really quite resilient because those things are going to happen a lot and they really buffet you. And like you said, Katie, that always assume positive intent is the best way through it. Really?
- [15:01]
B
Yeah.
- [15:02]
C
Maybe you should explain my little joke about smeg.
- [15:04]
B
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, everybody's going to be.
- [15:07]
C
What? Smeg.
- [15:07]
B
Smeg.
- [15:08]
C
Tell us.
- [15:09]
B
Smeg got in touch and I was flung into a frenzy of excitement because I have a smeg kettle, which is my pride and joy in my kitchen. There's a man called John at smeg. Hello, John, if you're listening. And I replied, yes, John, I would love to illustrate for Smeg. Oh, my God, I got a smeg kettle. It's my pride and joy. Please let me know.
- [15:27]
C
It'd be lovely to work with you.
- [15:28]
B
And then I think he did reply saying, that was too expensive, but luckily.
- [15:33]
A
You'Re too over excitable. I've got loads of ideas for you, John. I'll draw all over the fridge.
- [15:37]
B
When I really dug into it, it wasn't that exciting. It was like going to a shop to draw things about smeg in a shop. Anyways, I was like, maybe not. But the nice thing is, now that I'm a few years in, I have a team because for me, I still really do take the rejections personally. So if I see every single person saying no, then I get really sad, even though I know logically I shouldn't care, but because somebody else is in my inbox replying like, thanks for letting me know. No problem, that really helps. And they like, I've got a Trello board set up, so every inquiry goes on Trello and then we can keep track of how many times we followed up with them. And then once they've been followed up three times and haven't replied, they get archived and if they go ahead, they get moved into the jobs board. So it's very organized and I don't do it because I'm not organized, but it means if I need to, I can go in and look and see what's coming up and what's been. What's been happening.
- [16:23]
C
Me and Kit, me and Tanya are glancing at each other like, what? Wow.
- [16:27]
A
I think everyone else listening to this is, what.
- [16:29]
B
What did she Just say she's got.
- [16:31]
A
A personal robot on a trello board.
- [16:33]
B
And I have automation set up as well because I'm a massive nerd. So when an inquiry comes in, I send it to a magical email address which puts it on the inquiry board and then that means it's on there. I don't have to, like, manually type it, it just goes.
- [16:45]
C
But this is because in the. In the illustration world, in our. Each of us with our three bears hat on, each of us has a different role. I am the one married to a publisher for 20 years, so I get a few inquiries and very rarely send out any samples. Tanya, you.
- [17:02]
A
I'm on Tinder. Tinder illustration.
- [17:06]
C
Your relationships last how long? A month or two.
- [17:08]
A
They can be so, yeah, weekly or they can be six months if it's a map. I really. I think I'm married to them. But if it's editorial, it's just a week or two. So, yeah, loads of updates.
- [17:19]
C
You're sleeping around.
- [17:20]
B
I'm sleeping around. I'm getting like five inquiries a day. Wham, bam, thank you, ma'am.
- [17:24]
C
Next.
- [17:25]
B
And then when they come back a year later, I'm like, wow, you remember you. Yeah, I can do it again.
- [17:31]
C
You need systems.
- [17:32]
B
Yeah, systems. I'm like a love rat.
- [17:35]
A
You're like a Tamagotchi. You're a virtual relationship.
- [17:38]
B
Yeah, it's very online, but I do meet them in person sometimes. But, yeah, it's very like transaction, but.
- [17:43]
A
The quantity of inquiries you have to go through. And because it's anyone who's just listening to us ramble on for the first time, Katie's in live illustration of virtual scribing. Live scribing. And so she works in a completely different area to my area and to Helen's. So we're always in awe of the fact she can actually learn. Learn how to use all these amazing business organization softwares and apps, which you just eat up for dinner, so you can deal with multiple inquiries and put them all on your inquiries board. We don't know whether there's really a person there. If it's so automated, she doesn't need them.
- [18:19]
B
There are humans to tidy up and make sure I'm not missing things. But, yeah, I'm a big nerd and I love it.
- [18:27]
A
I want to be that nerd too, because I can't type and I've got new nails as well, so the typing's got even worse. I'm going to need voice to text apps to actually do anything, but I.
- [18:36]
B
Do talk about all that stuff in the business course. So if you're like, tell me more. What. What are the systems and the processes? I'm. It's in the business course.
- [18:43]
C
I did the business course as we. Because I. For picture books, there is a lot less process and I don't need anybody to answer my emails. I have a WhatsApp group with my publisher and we send each other pictures of dogs and it's such a different world. Yeah. So I did the business course as an observer of. Wow. This is incredible. It's just full of incredible stuff. All your SEO knowledge and. Yeah, amazing.
- [19:11]
A
Yeah. Katie's bought this whole other world of marketing. Treating yourself not just as an illustrator. Hello, I'm a little artist. Would you like to employ me? But properly treating yourself like a business and using all the marketing tricks out there to make it easier and also to make it less personal so you don't feel rejected or you don't feel really cringy about marketing yourself, it's much easier. And then also we have pricing as well. We were talking about pricing earlier. We've got a lot more in depth ideas. We've got evidence from other illustrators what they're charging in different market sectors and how to move your prices up, how to work out rates that you should be charging. Lots of good money. Talk all the stuff that you really want to know, but we're too scared to ask. I think we're done, aren't we?
- [19:56]
C
We never know how to say goodbye, do we?
- [19:58]
B
We're just looking at each other. We should finish it now. How?
- [20:00]
C
We just shuffle out of the way of the microphone.
- [20:02]
A
Yeah.
- [20:02]
B
Imagine us waving awkwardly goodbye for now.
- [20:07]
C
Bye.