Should I have 2 websites?” + how many mailers until you see results?

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Good Ship Illustration – Episode: "Should I Have 2 Websites?” + How Many Mailers Until You See Results?

Release Date: October 17, 2024

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Introduction

In this episode of The Good Ship Illustration, hosts Helen Stephens (Speaker A), Katie Chappell (Speaker B), and Tania Willis (Speaker C) delve into two pressing questions faced by illustrators and artists: whether to maintain separate websites or social media accounts for different artistic ventures, and how many mailers are needed to achieve tangible results in marketing efforts.

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1. Should I Have Two Websites or Social Media Accounts?

a. The General Consensus: One Platform Suffices

The discussion begins with the common dilemma artists face when juggling multiple creative pursuits—should they maintain separate online presences for each? Helen opens the conversation by questioning the necessity of multiple accounts:

"Should you have two separate websites or two separate Instagram accounts? What do you think?" [00:11]

Katie immediately responds with a strong stance against duplication:

"This comes up so much, doesn't it, all the time. And our general stance is, no, no." [00:36]

She emphasizes that artists are multifaceted and their audience appreciates seeing the full spectrum of their creativity:

"I think people are interested to know the whole of you... People are following you because they want to know what kind of human being you are, the whole thing." [00:46]

b. Cost and Maintenance Considerations

Helen and Tania echo the sentiment, highlighting the increased workload and costs associated with managing multiple platforms:

"If you have two websites, that's going to cost you loads more money. It's going to be way more upkeep." [01:34] — Katie

"If you've got two Instagram accounts, you're going to be having to make content for both of them. It's just going to take up more brain space." [01:42] — Helen

c. Exceptions to the Rule

Tania introduces nuances to the discussion, acknowledging that high-profile artists with distinct brands might find separate platforms beneficial:

"Imagine if you are quite a successful exhibiting Painter and you have a gallery, but you can also do some illustration on the side." [02:18]

However, she notes that such cases are exceptions rather than the norm, often rooted in historical perceptions separating fine art from illustration.

d. Embracing a Unified Creative Identity

Helen encourages artists to embrace all facets of their work without overcomplicating their online presence:

"Stop overthinking it. And the illustrator is just as good as an artist and be proud of it and be both." [03:13]

She provides a relatable example of artist Bjorn Lee, whose diverse work remains distinctly identifiable under a single brand:

"I completely see you in it. But it's a whole different thing because it's 3D and it's not a print." [05:31]

e. Practical Tips for Managing a Single Platform

The hosts discuss practical strategies, such as integrating different works seamlessly on one website or leveraging interactive elements like Instagram takeovers to showcase various projects:

"If you approach it in a truly human way and ignore the so-called social media rules that were all set for Instagram 5, 10 years ago, you can afford to say, here's some illustration work I've done and here's a painting I'm working on." [08:46]

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2. How Many Mailers Until You See Results?

a. Understanding the Response Rates

Transitioning to marketing strategies, the trio addresses the effectiveness of sending out mailers—both digital and physical—and the realistic expectations of response rates:

"If you're sending an email selling something you can expect between 1 and 3% will buy." [11:42] — Katie

Helen shares personal anecdotes to illustrate perseverance:

"If I didn't hear back, it was fine. Sometimes they would put their postcard on the wall and I'd hear five years later with a book deal." [12:09]

b. The Power of Persistence

Tania recounts her experience with low response rates, emphasizing that even a single positive reply is a success:

"I sent 12 and I just got one reply. And earlier she said I sent 30 submissions and had just got one reply." [10:33]

Helen reinforces this by reframing expectations:

"Both of those are good results in my book." [11:25]

c. Email vs. Physical Mailers

The hosts debate the merits of digital versus physical mailers, advocating for the latter due to their tangible nature and lasting impression:

"Physical mailers for illustrators are much better than sending it by email." [12:51] — Tania

Helen adds that physical items like screen prints not only stand out but also serve as memorable tokens that recipients are likely to keep:

"If they'd sent me a piece of artwork, I'd stick it on the wall if I loved it and I'd remember." [13:02]

d. Leveraging Reciprocity in Marketing

Katie introduces the psychological principle of reciprocity, explaining how thoughtful mailers can create a sense of obligation:

"The rule of reciprocity is a recipe. If you give somebody something, they feel like they should give something back." [18:46]

Helen provides an example of Bruce Ingman, who successfully used limited edition screen prints to foster client relationships:

"If you're sending mail outs, like emails, and you've got a really good return rate, if you're selling a product and you send out 100 emails and you get one sale, that's really good." [12:09]

e. Best Practices for Effective Mailings

The hosts offer actionable advice for illustrators looking to enhance their marketing efforts:

• Volume Matters: Persistently sending out a high volume of mailers increases the chances of receiving responses. Helen suggests:

  "Send 12 and getting one... Send 100 and then come back to us." [19:56]

• Quality Over Quantity: Creating beautiful, high-quality physical samples can make a significant impact:

  "It's worth making something really beautiful because everybody wants it. And it stands out from a postcard, doesn't it?" [17:48]

• Avoid Cold Follow-Ups: Instead of directly asking for feedback, which can be uncomfortable, continue sending valuable content:

  "Just send more." [15:25] — Katie

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Conclusion

In this insightful episode, The Good Ship Illustration offers invaluable advice for artists and illustrators navigating the complexities of establishing a cohesive online presence and executing effective marketing campaigns. The hosts advocate for maintaining a unified platform to showcase diverse talents, debunking the myth that distinct artistic endeavors require separate online identities. Additionally, they emphasize the importance of persistence and quality in marketing efforts, particularly through physical mailers, to foster meaningful connections and achieve career growth.

By embracing a holistic approach to their creative and professional lives, illustrators can build a strong, recognizable brand while maximizing their outreach and engagement with potential clients and audiences.

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Key Quotes:

• "People are following you because they want to know what kind of human being you are, the whole thing." — Speaker A [00:46]

• "If you approach it in a truly human way and ignore the so-called social media rules that were all set for Instagram 5, 10 years ago, you can afford to say, here's some illustration work I've done and here's a painting I'm working on." — Speaker A [08:46]

• "The rule of reciprocity is a recipe. If you give somebody something, they feel like they should give something back." — Speaker B [18:46]

• "Both of those are good results in my book." — Speaker A [11:25]

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This episode serves as a comprehensive guide for illustrators aiming to streamline their online presence and enhance their marketing strategies, ensuring they remain both authentic and effective in the competitive creative industry.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome. Okay, so we've got another good question for this episode and it is artists. Illustrator. So if you've got two areas of your work, you might be an artist and an illustrator. Not that they're always separate things, or a potter and a jewelry maker or whatever. Should you have two separate websites or two separate Instagram accounts? What do you think?

[B]

This comes up so much, doesn't it, all the time. And our general stance is, no, no.

[A]

Don'T have two accounts. No, it's.

[B]

You are one person, have one account.

[A]

I think people are interested to know the whole of you. So say you're an illustrator who also makes landscape paintings. I think people are just interested to see your talents across the board as well as being interested to see what the inside of your studio looks like or now and again, what your dog looks like or like your whole life. People are following you because they want to know what kind of human being you are, the whole thing.

[B]

And also, people aren't stupid. So if you are a photographer and a potter and you post a photo and then you post some pottery, they're not gonna be like, whoa, what's going on? This is a pot. They're gonna be like, oh, look, they do pottery as well. And it's the same with your website that you can do the doorway method. The main page of your website, you'll have look at my photos, look at my pottery, and you can click either one. Yeah, again, people aren't stupid.

[C]

You don't.

[B]

Because if you have two websites, that's going to cost you loads more money. It's going to be way more upkeep. But if it's in one place and it makes your life, I think that's it.

[A]

I think if you do it twice, you've got double the work. So if you've got two Instagram accounts, you're going to be having to make content for both of them. It's just going to take up more brain space. You're going to have half the audience because most people won't want to follow you on two separate accounts. My good friend Sarah Tasker, who runs courses on Instagram and has done for a long time since Instagram was huge and well loved by everybody, she always says no not to. You're just giving yourself extra work. You get half the eyes on it. But having said all that, maybe there are exceptions. Maybe you can do it and it'll be successful.

[C]

Yeah, I wouldn't argue for the exception. I just think there are some exceptions. Imagine if you are quite a successful exhibiting Painter and you have a gallery, but you can also do some illustration on the side. The gallery would be like, don't you dare let anyone know that you're selling illustration work cheaper. It interferes with the brand. And I think some people do have an ick about the whole thing especially it's less relevant now than it was maybe 20 years ago. But some people trained in fine art really have that thing about illustration but then find they're actually quite good at it and they enjoy it and they do well. But there is a lot of discomfort around the issue of illustration and fine art. I think when you've become an illustrator and you maybe sell workers paintings or as so called fine art, you're more comfortable. But the other way around, a lot of people don't like it.

[A]

We know some people do. You know what I want to say there is stop overthinking it. And the illustrator is just as good as an artist and be proud of it and be both. Yeah, you're right. A lot of people don't feel like that about it.

[C]

I agree. Feel like you about it. But I know that there are some people. I think it's a really touchy subject. Quite an awkward subject for some people. But then there's a lot of other people who are like our friend Brita, who's on the picture book course. She's forged a career as a painter and she really began as an illustrator in children's books and she still continues to do that. She has two separate environments and mostly is known for her painting now, but she is also continuing to illustrate children's books. And it like a true Swede. She has no problem with it. Like, yeah, I'm in a sauna naked with people, so what? But I think she has the same kind of pragmatic attitude to the illustration fine art dilemma. But I know some people really are orcs about it. There's a lot of. I noticed some of the tutors that I worked with at SCAD before, they had incredibly highly trained figurative painting skills and they would be selling oil paintings. Like I don't know anyone who does that anymore because most of our friends are graphic artists. But they did a lot of complex oil paintings and they kept that on a separate site to the stuff that they would do for video games and sequential art. But they had these really amazing broad skills in both areas, but they'd keep them separate.

[A]

I think that's one of the things we get asked a lot is that I have people say I have two different styles. So do they need to be kept separate. And I think often when people think they have two very different styles, often they're not. Often you can see that they're done by the same person. Like with my book work, I like to change materials a lot. Sometimes I like to work digitally. Sometimes I might use a crayon as the line, sometimes a dip pen, and I like to jump about. It keeps me excited about work. I like learning new things, but I think it's always very obvious that the work is by me. So I wouldn't split those up into separate sections of Helen. They're all the same. And I think a lot of people really worry that their work has these very different aspects to it. But when we look at it, we think, oh, no, that's all you. It all looks like you. It's just. That's you when you were in that mood and that's you when you were doing this thing.

[B]

A lot of the time you're too close to your own work, aren't you? And you're just like, it's so different. And, yeah, like, you say, we look at it and say, no, it's the same.

[A]

Yeah. I'm really massive fan of this artist called Bjorn Lee, and we've just bought two pieces of his artwork. We're completely obsessed with him. I have to stop myself being a bit of a stalker. I'm sure I'm frightening him a bit, but he's just saw. Maybe last week or the weekend he posted on Instagram, he'd started to make some pottery. And when I saw the pottery, I was like, oh, yes, that is how you would do. But I see that's you doing pottery. It's still you. I completely see you in it. But it's a whole different thing because it's 3D and it's not a print. And I think that for most artists, if they go into another area, they're still that person. You can still see them in it. It's just another form. So I would put it all on one website.

[B]

Yeah, I see a lot of people, I think, especially younger people, like Gen Z folk who are like super Internet savvy, have like a private profile and then a public profile, which is very sensible. Probably, definitely as a teenager, but then I think as an illustrator, you don't. If you have just a public one. I feel like it's going to be boring, isn't it? Because I hears the things.

[A]

If you never put anything private, if you never show anything of your personality and it's just in public image after Public image. Yeah. It would be boring because I do.

[B]

Have an illustrated live Instagram account, which is really boring because it's just. It's like a testimonial, a bit of work. A testimonial, a bit of work. It's so dry. But it looks nice at the bottom of the website. And it means that I haven't got me being doing daft.

[A]

It's got a function. And you're not running that either. You have an assistant.

[B]

Exactly. I'm not doing it, so I don't see it because I couldn't, because it's too boring. But like, it's. It does a thing, it does a job. And that people can look at more work and then also they can see they can still cross check me on there because I'm like listed as the founder and they can click through to it. But I would never want my own. I just couldn't be bothered to run.

[A]

No, run two accounts. It sounds like too much hard work. I'm just thinking about how if you had an Instagram account where you showed absolutely nothing of yourself on it, it was just like a work account. It immediately makes me think of some publishers that I won't name who have an Instagram account. They've obviously just got somebody in marketing running it and the whole feed is just a book on a white background or a red back. You just choose a color, they put a book on it, take a picture, bam. And nobody follows those accounts. And it's very frustrating to see brilliant publishers just posting that with hardly any followers. And their illustrators who they're using have got millions of followers because they know how to do it. Yeah.

[C]

And the publishers are following old rules of keep it nice and consistent. No one does that.

[A]

What Walker books, big picture books, they're called on Instagram, do it really well. We see the personalities of the people who work there. They do Instagram takeovers. We see all the pets. They're such a lovely publisher because they encourage you to come and meet them with your cat and your dog and your babies and everything. And they put all of those on there and it feels like a really creative space where all sorts of stuff is happening. You see the books as well. You see the books in development. It's brilliant. It's full of life. And we see all aspects of Walker in that account. And I think it's the same for artists. We should. I don't mean reveal everything. Don't show every meal you cook and you don't want to be hot mess on there.

[C]

But actually, I think you're right.

[A]

People want to see everything.

[C]

If you approach it in a truly human way and ignore the so called social media rules that were all set for Instagram 5, 10 years ago, you can afford to say, here's some illustration work I've done and here's a painting I'm working on and it's a lot more integrated and it's easier. I think integrated yourself is psychically easier for you as well.

[A]

I do too. I think if you've got that problem of I'm a painter, I'm an illustrator, the people who are buying my paintings, I'm ashamed, I don't want them to. I'm not saying people we know do this. I'm just saying generally that seems to me like a psychological problem that you've got, like a little bit of self hatred. Why would you be doing that to yourself? You're a painter and you do it brilliantly.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And you're an illustrator because they're the same kind of skill.

[B]

Also, anything you can do to make your life easier.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All for it. Yes.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[B]

One Instagram account. Yes, please. I don't want to be logging in and logging out and checking one thing.

[C]

Oh, the logging in and logging out is a pain in the butt. But you look at someone, say, like Janine Burrows, who. God, I might have this wrong. Janine, if you're listening and I'm misassigning you things, but I know that your background was in some way commercial art or illustration. And now she's just doing, doing the work she loves and it's selling as prints and selling as paintings and I don't know how huge a jump it is from what she was previously doing, but I think you want to do that natural progression that you can be both things at at one time.

[A]

Definitely. How many mailers to send to get a result?

[B]

Oh, this is a really good one because you said one mailer get no reply. Result.

[A]

A milli up. I think it's a million.

[B]

You're wrong.

[A]

What do you think, Tanya?

[C]

Let me read the question first because Emma wrote this and Emma's on our.

[A]

Picture book course, Tanya's business course, being bossy.

[C]

Stop. Stop messing around, she said. I've made many submissions this year, picture books and illustration and to card companies and so on, both by email and physical fund mailers. Out of the 30 submissions or so, I had just one reply. Typical. It was a sort of typical. Lovely work. I'll keep you on file. Yes, but what to do now? Do I Follow up on all the other submissions or is that clogging up their emails and wasting time? It's so frustrating. And the best one I had was I submitted to a very well known agent and it took a year for them to say nice, but not for us. And I was looking at the kind of data she was talking about. I sent 12 and I just got one reply. And earlier she said I sent 30 submissions and had just got one reply.

[A]

Both of those are good results in my book.

[B]

Yes, that is incredible.

[A]

12 and 1 reply. Well done. Brilliant. Send 12 times, send 144. This is maths.

[C]

Oh, I know you like your numbers.

[A]

And you'll get 12 replies.

[B]

Can I be marketing nerd?

[C]

Yeah, go on.

[B]

So in general, this is for sending emails. If you're sending an email selling something you can expect between 1 and 3% will buy. Okay, but that's. So you've got to send 100 to get one and like 100 people have to open the email to get one. So if you're sending mailers, which is a totally. It's a different thing, you have to send 100 in this. So let's say for instance, it's 1% success rate, you have to send 100 to get one. So if you're sending 12 and getting one, I can't do that maths. But that's a really good.

[A]

I think that sounds brilliant. I can remember right at the beginning of my career when I was trying to find a publisher, I would write, I don't know, a big batch, a big chunk of postcards every night, have my dinner, sit at the dinner table, write out, go through the writers and artists yearbook, write maybe 30 postcards on my way to work at the science museum, my part time job at the museum, every day, bunch of postcards in the post box. Didn't I hear back from them? Oh, they probably need another postcard then just did it and did it and didn't, didn't worry about it. If I didn't hear back, it was fine. Sometimes they would put their postcard on the wall and I'd hear five years later with a book deal. And you think I'm glad I sent that postcard.

[C]

Which also points out why physical mailers for illustrators are much better than sending it by email.

[B]

Especially if you're worried about clogging up their inbox, which is a valid concern.

[A]

And how will they find you again if they see if it arrives? This is, I don't know. I've not spoken to a publisher like this about this, but if it was me and I got an email and I loved the artwork and I was oohing and ahhing over it and I thought, oh, brilliant. And my email is now red. It's down there with all the other millions of red emails and I'm thinking, remember that amazing work I saw? What was it? Who was it? I don't know, I can't remember. How would I find it again? Don't know. But if they'd sent me a piece of artwork, I'd stick it on the wall if I loved it and I'd remember.

[B]

Yeah. And if you got another one, you wouldn't be like another gorgeous postcard.

[A]

But who cares if they do? Who cares if they do? Yeah, exactly.

[B]

But a physical thing is such a nice thing to receive.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Much more exciting than it.

[C]

And we're lucky that we can sell that way or we can promote ourselves through paper products and postcards. You could do a one, you could do mini cat desk calendars. There's all sorts of products that you can put your illustration on. But it is. It's much more of a gift and less confrontational, generally annoying than sending emails every three months. I know a lot of illustrators that say they will either follow up or they'll send another update in three months, saying, I've got some new work. Which is quite a good way of approaching it, rather than, what did you think of the last stuff? Just pretend that you're one of those annoying friends who won't go away.

[A]

I did that. I never followed it up, saying, what do you think? I just thought, I don't know what they think. They've either put on the wall or they put in the bin, whatever. But now I've got a new piece, they'll definitely, this piece, I'll just send it again.

[C]

Yeah, that's the illustrator's version of a follow up. Whenever people used to say, you've sent your postcards, now give them a call. I'm like, are you mad? I'm going to call someone and say, what did you think of that? Do you want to use. That's just asking for not just the rejection. It's just be embarrassing. So luckily we can just keep sending them nice pictures and they don't mind.

[A]

Also, most people have. If you're sending a sample to a designer, they're a visual person. If you ring them up and say, I sent you this sample, you'd have to describe the sample. The whole conversation will be awkward and weird. Oh, I couldn't. Yeah, they had A bird on the corner with red background. Do you remember? It's so horrible.

[C]

And to say to someone like, did you like it when they're thinking, oh, God, it was awful.

[B]

Do you remember that feeling at first school? And I just remember cringing. Even then when children, fellow children, when they go up to the teacher, is this all right, Miss? I'd be like, oh, don't ask.

[C]

You even knew then.

[B]

No, don't just do it. Because what if they say no? Yeah, just send more.

[C]

Yeah, but Emma, you're. If you're listening to this, your rejection rate was really good. You said you were absolutely gutted. I think when you don't know how many, what volume people are using to send out marketing for illustrators, you think you were failing on 30 or 12 there. Wow. You've just got to do it in big numbers. Which of course leads to 100 rejections, doesn't it?

[A]

Just thinking about it in terms of what you were talking about is if you're sending mail outs, like emails, and you've got a really good return rate, if you're selling a product and you send out 100 emails and you get one sale, that's really good. And just thinking about all of that stuff, that mailchimp, all of those facts that you read on mailchimp and all the other mail providers with those sort of statistics, they're so interesting. And lots of those mail providers have a facility where if you send out your mail out and say 50% of people open it, which is actually a really good rate, even though it sounds bad, it's really good. They have a little prompt for you to press resend because they say on the resend you get another huge percentage of people open it. Then nobody minds it arriving then. Yeah, if they. The first one, they saw it, but they were too busy. When it arrives again, people open them, so you get a much bigger open rate. So this is the same in real life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You've sent out your postcards. 50% of people ignored them, 90% of people ignored them. But you leave a little while and then you send them again. There will be people who didn't see it last time or forgot about it and yeah, just do it.

[C]

I remember seeing there was an interview in, I think, was it three by three? Illustration. They interviewed the art director for the New Yorker and she showed her little office and the whole thing was wallpapered with illustrated postcards. And she was like, I have to commission maybe. Was it something like six? It was quite a big number. And I was thinking Imagine speaking to eight neurotic illustrators per week. And what percentage. Say, I can't reach the deadline, if I'm having a breakdown or all that. It's a lot of work dealing with all those commissions. But she said, given the volume that I commission per month, I have to have all this work on the walk. So I just sit at my desk and stare at it for hours, deciding who would be right for which article. So it makes you think there's going to be a big return to mail.

[A]

I remember going to see lots of publishers, maybe early 2000s. And a few publishers that I went to see had an absolutely gorgeous handmade print by Bruce Ingman. Bruce Ingman, the completely incredible picture bookmaker. He'd made gorgeous screen prints and just sent them to a select group of art directors. And I can remember going into people's offices and seeing them and thinking, I wish I had one of those. I'd feel so, like, greedy for it was so gorgeous. But the few people who had them on there was. And they were so special. So it's worth making something really beautiful because everybody wants it. And it stands out from a postcard, doesn't it? If you make an actual screen print and send it.

[C]

Did he audition them? So they were aware that they were.

[A]

Not that I know.

[C]

Limited edition screen prints and not just some cheap license?

[A]

Maybe. I don't know. I remember being very jealous of art directors and wondering if they'd leave the office for a minute so I could quickly nick it. I never did that.

[B]

That's like a proper marketing. The rule of reciprocity is a recipe. I don't know how to say that in any.

[A]

So if you give somebody, they owe you something.

[B]

Yeah. As humans, if we're given something, we don't consciously know it, but we feel like because somebody's given us something, we should be nice to them back or we should give them something back. So Bruce Ingman, marketing genius.

[C]

Yeah, he guilt tripped them. A whole career based on guilt tripping.

[B]

You like the screen print? You can hire me for an illustration project if you want. You owe me one. I'm sure he wasn't that calculated.

[C]

He's. Bruce was in my year at college and he's a very quiet and assuming kind of guy. I never knew he in. In there beat a heart of a marketing genius.

[B]

Now you know.

[A]

I don't think he knows.

[B]

Now you know, Bruce, wow, what a great idea.

[C]

But that's a bit like in luxury brands or premium products that you treat your clients. It's like the goodie bag, basically, isn't it? Here you go. Here's something really special that I made for you. Like you say, that's a great idea. Okay, I think we answered all of that. Did we, Emma? I hope that makes you feel better.

[B]

Yeah, do 100 and then come back to us.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Bye.