The burnout life raft (for when you're drowning in to-dos)

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Burnout Life Raft (for When You're Drowning in To-Dos) The Good Ship Illustration | Released on November 22, 2024

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Introduction In the episode titled "The Burnout Life Raft (for When You're Drowning in To-Dos)," hosts Helen Stephens, Katie Chappell, and Tania Willis delve deep into the pervasive issue of burnout within the illustration industry. Drawing from their combined 60 years of experience, they offer practical insights and strategies to help illustrators navigate the challenges of maintaining a sustainable and fulfilling creative career.

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1. Understanding Burnout The conversation begins with an exploration of what burnout truly means, distinguishing between its medical definition and cultural interpretations.

• Helen (00:10): Introduces the topic of burnout, highlighting its significance among illustrators.

• Katie (01:00): Clarifies burnout as more than just feeling tired or stressed, emphasizing its severe physical and emotional manifestations.

• Marlouse (00:25): Points out the cultural misuse of the term, noting that burnout is often confused with general stress or the need for a holiday.

Notable Quote:

• Helen (01:15): "It's a wide spectrum of the different levels of utter exhaustion you can feel."

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2. Burnout in the Illustration Industry The hosts discuss why burnout is particularly prevalent among illustrators, attributing it to the passion-driven nature of the profession and the tendency to take on excessive work.

• Marlouse (01:28): Labels burnout as an "occupational hazard" because illustrators love what they do and often fear dwindling opportunities.

• Katie (01:38): Shares personal experiences of overcommitting to projects out of fear that work will decline.

Notable Quote:

• Marlouse (01:28): "It's an occupational hazard because we love what we do."

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3. Managing Workload and Setting Rates A significant portion of the discussion centers on the importance of setting appropriate rates and not undervaluing one’s work to prevent burnout.

• Helen (02:04): Reflects on how being busy doesn't equate to being successful, especially when financially inadequate.

• Katie (02:18): Emphasizes the need to stop chasing an ever-growing to-do list and recognize the difference between busyness and productivity.

Notable Quote:

• Helen (02:04): "Being busy doesn't mean you're doing okay."

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4. Outsourcing and Delegation The hosts advocate for outsourcing non-core tasks to focus more on illustration work, thereby reducing burnout risk.

• Katie (04:54): Discusses the benefits of hiring virtual assistants to handle administrative duties, allowing more time for actual illustrating.

• Helen (05:48): Explains how virtual assistants can take over tasks like managing newsletters and social media, streamlining operations.

Notable Quote:

• Marlouse (07:50): "What are those things you're really good at? You focus on them and then as soon as you can afford it... leverage."

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5. Balancing Digital and Traditional Work Katie shares her personal journey of transitioning between digital tools like Procreate and traditional paper-based illustration, highlighting the physical toll of digital work.

• Katie (11:08): Describes experiencing physical pain from prolonged use of digital tools, leading her to revert to traditional methods.

• Helen (14:08): Offers practical solutions like using a gamer's lamp to reduce eye strain from screen time.

Notable Quote:

• Katie (13:04): "Drawing on paper makes me feel relaxed; it calms me down, it feels centered."

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6. Self-Care and Physical Health The importance of physical well-being as a buffer against burnout is a recurring theme, with tips on incorporating exercise and mindful practices into daily routines.

• Katie (16:18): Highlights the role of her dog in reminding her to take breaks and go for walks, which help clear her mind.

• Helen (15:36): Shares how improving her workspace lighting significantly reduced eye strain and fatigue.

Notable Quote:

• Katie (16:13): "A good long walk in the middle of the day helps to clear the brain."

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7. Personal Experiences with Burnout Each host recounts their personal encounters with burnout, illustrating its multifaceted impact on both professional and personal lives.

• Helen (22:10): Narrates a severe burnout episode stemming from overwork, isolation, and unmanageable responsibilities, leading to a temporary inability to continue her work.

• Marlouse (17:07): Discusses the revelation from a business coaching session that led her to reassess and reduce her workload.

Notable Quote:

• Helen (22:10): "I was so sad to say goodbye to my friends... it just combined into one perfect storm."

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8. Strategies for Preventing Burnout The hosts offer actionable strategies to mitigate burnout, emphasizing prioritization, setting boundaries, and maintaining a balance between work and personal life.

• Marlouse (23:54): Stresses the importance of recognizing personal red flags and taking proactive measures to address them.

• Helen (20:42): Advocates for meticulous scheduling to maintain control over project timelines and prevent mission creep.

Notable Quote:

• Katie (23:38): "Reevaluating which bit of this is enjoyable... Am I still drawing every day?"

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9. Embracing Individuality and Sustainable Practices The discussion touches on the need for illustrators to embrace their unique working styles and adopt sustainable practices that align with their personal well-being.

• Marlouse (25:55): Shares insights from human design, emphasizing the importance of waiting to be invited to projects and leveraging one’s strengths without overexertion.

• Helen (27:11): Reflects on the guilt associated with not adhering to self-imposed work standards and the necessity of sustainable work habits.

Notable Quote:

• Marlouse (25:55): "You have to protect yourself as much as possible to make it a functional business."

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10. Conclusion The episode wraps up with a reinforcement of the key themes: the necessity of self-care, the importance of setting boundaries, and the value of prioritizing meaningful work over sheer busyness.

• Katie (28:40): Offers a heartfelt reminder to listeners to look after themselves.

• Helen (28:34): Hopes the discussion has been beneficial for those feeling stressed.

Notable Quote:

• Katie (28:40): "Look after yourself."

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Final Thoughts "The Burnout Life Raft" serves as a valuable resource for illustrators and creatives grappling with burnout. Through candid discussions and personal anecdotes, Helen, Katie, and Marlouse provide both empathy and practical solutions, encouraging artists to prioritize their well-being and cultivate sustainable career practices.

Transcript

[Helen]

Hi, this is, this is our podcast about burnout. In fact, Helen, for a moment forgot what we were recording because she's.

[Katie]

My brain is overloaded. Overloaded with all the stuff you have to do, like negotiate life around a teenager. Oh, my goodness.

[Marlouse]

Full time job. I suppose maybe it's good to like, what is burnout? Because I think there's a cultural thing, isn't there? I know I've spoken to friends in different countries and they've been like, I'm burnt out. But it's like, it's actual, a medical thing, like a nervous breakdown.

[Katie]

Marlouse de Vries was talking about this, wasn't she? Because she's Dutch and she'd written a newsletter about suffering burnout. And a lot people misunderstood the word burnout between two descriptions. One is like, physically burnt out, you cannot get out of bed or whatever your symptoms are. You are done, you are physically done. You can't. Whereas some people interpret burnout as just.

[Marlouse]

Feeling a bit stressed, tired, did a holiday.

[Katie]

Yeah.

[Marlouse]

Yeah.

[Helen]

I guess it's a new way that depression was misused, you know, as a term a few years back. But yeah, it's that kind of wide spectrum of the different levels of utter exhaustion you can feel.

[Marlouse]

Yeah.

[Helen]

But it does seem to be very popular amongst illustrators. Popular is the wrong word.

[Katie]

I don't think. We love burnout. We're all striving for burnout. It's a large.

[Marlouse]

It's an occupational hazard because we love what we do. And then there's always the thing of, you know, you start out not getting much work and then when people start asking you to work, you say yes to absolutely everything because you're scared it's going to go away.

[Katie]

And if you get overexcited, like I do, emails arrive in, I'm like, oh, yes. And don't think through how much work this is going to be. And also sometimes you think a job will just be the answer to everything. Like this job is so great. It's going to. This, these royalty checks have to do. This are going to be amazing. But you actually can't predict things like that. You cannot predict it. And I've given up trying to predict anything like that now.

[Marlouse]

So, yes, once I do this job, then, yeah, then it'll be quiet after next week and that, yeah, I've been in.

[Katie]

You can carry on putting off, putting off, taking a break or slowing down until you just cannot do anymore and.

[Helen]

Chasing your to do list until you believe you're going to beat it into shape, but it looks the same to do list week after week. I think one of the big things that I realized was, and that was kind of thanks to you, Katie, was being busy doesn't mean you're doing okay. Being busy and being exhausted and being badly paid and just saying yes to everything so that you're on a treadmill of poorly paid jobs. Because when I came from Hong Kong, the rates were lower there. Strangely, you'd think they would be bigger in advertising agencies. There were some big fees. I don't know ultimately whether they were bigger than you would get in the uk because there was no real way to compare at that time. We're talking about the 90s, but I think I'd got used to a set rate that I could live on, but it wasn't that good. So when we used to do our coffee mornings and talk about, what are you working on? How's the client? What kind of fear are you getting from that? And we started to compare these things and you were spending a lot of time looking into kind of female entrepreneurs, money marketing. And suddenly you had this whole new take on it. And you said, we'll just put Your prices up 20% to start with and see how that goes. And it was right, because everyone said, oh, okay. They weren't even bothered. They didn't notice it was 20%. And you realize you've been working at a lower rate. And I think this is why a lot of younger illustrators do that. And that's what leads to burnout, isn't it? Think, well, I'm busy, so I must be successful, but I can barely make the rent or I'm not being paid what I feel I ought to be paid. And I've got a poor sense of, you know, self worth over it.

[Marlouse]

It's so hard as well, because everybody rewards you for being busy. They reward you for, like, doing things really quickly. It's like society as a whole is like, oh, you're so busy, you must be so important. It's amazing. And yeah, but like, it's like so almost subconscious. You don't even realize it. But if you are really busy and doing loads, you feel better about yourself because you're like, yeah, I'm so busy and doing loads of work until it's, you know, actually nobody cares really.

[Helen]

Well, you think you're fulfilling the definition of an illustrator because you're illustrating, but you're not looking at the finances because there's not really time to do that. We're not taught how to do it and we're not really Taught the business confidence to treat it like a business and up the prices. You just think, well, I'm being an illustrator. And that's without even mentioning sliding in all that time to do your Instagram and make reels and all and, and think that was the cherry on the cake for a lot of illustrators upping their game to deal with what Instagram needed for the self promotion. And that I think for a lot of people are like, I'm done.

[Katie]

I think you can end up doing a load of stuff that isn't the actual illustrating. It's so easy to be led down all of these other paths of spending half a day answering emails, working out which book festivals you're going to go to, working out your trains and your hotels and you can feeling, you can end up feeling really, really busy. But none of it is illustration. And it's been really useful to since setting up the Good Ship and taking on a couple of assistants to do the things that. And we shouldn't really, they're not in our main skill set so we should pass those jobs on. That has been a revelation for me because I realized I can do that in my own work as well. Just have an assistant who does some of the stuff I don't. That isn't illustrating and having an accountant and all of that. It's, it's so brilliant because you can actually be an illustrator and draw pictures.

[Helen]

Can you explain how the virtual assistant thing works a bit for people who might be interested?

[Katie]

Yeah, well, we. Well, you use, you use more than one assistant, don't you? You have a couple.

[Marlouse]

Yeah. So right now there's three people working with me on the live registration side of things. And then in Good Ship we've got two amazing team members. But when I started out I got like the smallest amount of hours of a virtual assistant and it was literally replying to inquiries because I was getting a lot. And also like just the admin bits behind the scenes like following up with people. People send invoices and then they want to like onboard you as a supplier and you've got to fill in a 12 page form and then you've got to like send them a photocopy of your bum to prov. Like on headed note paper, please write this. And I hate all that so much and I would just never do it. So my husband does a lot of it. He also hates it so it's not ideal but he does it for me sometimes. And then also, yeah, I've got Emma, my assistant who does bits and bobs like that. But yeah, it was that thing of looking. I think in some books it's called like his own of genius, his own excellence. What are those things you're really good at? You focus on them and then as soon as you can afford it or whatever, getting even the tiniest bit of help just leverages. You go to a different gear and you can do the stuff you're really good at.

[Katie]

It's so easy to find. Suddenly find you just barely ever illustrating because of all of the emails and that kind of stuff. Yeah. I had an assistant for a while who I was getting her to nudge me to remind me to write a newsletter. And so then I would write the newsletter in a Google Doc and she'd have a look at it and then she would put it into. I don't know if I was using mailchimp. I don't think I was using substack. Then I was on mailchimp. She'd put in mailchimp on me, but she'd make it into a blog on my website and she'd take some stuff out that I could use for Instagram. So that was really handy. Just. Just have somebody to nudge me to remind me to do it and help.

[Helen]

You do it as well and pick out them. Because we've all got this material and content, haven't we? Some piecing it together is a boring bit.

[Katie]

Yeah. I don't mind writing it, but the bit where I needed to. You stick it in mailchimp, copy and paste it into my blog, find the pictures again. Like all that admin. Finding your pictures in Dropbox, sticking them in, checking the file sizes.

[Helen]

Right.

[Katie]

All of that. That was really, really handy to just give that over to someone else. But actually I found I stopped running. I decided to prioritize what work was more important. And so now I really like being an actual illustrator, drawing pictures, writing stories and doing good ship. And I was. A few years ago I was also running an online shop and really being on top of it with a newsletter posting on Instagram frequently. I actually decided to let a lot of that go. So I don't post as much on Instagram anymore because partially I don't find it as fun as I used to. It's not the place it was. I don't try and write a newsletter and duplicate it into a blog anymore because substacks come along. You literally write it in substack. You press send, you've got a blog and a newsletter and we closed the shop. So I actually don't need the assistant anymore. Just got the accountant for doing all of the boring numbers stuff.

[Marlouse]

It's going to say that's one of the really nice things is realizing what you actually just don't need to be doing at all and stopping doing that. And that's been a big one for me this year. Like I did the British Library. Get ready to grow your business. Get ready for business growth, it's called. And I think that, like, following somebody else's idea of what's a really successful business and they were like, oh, it's working now, so scale it. Like, I've grown a team and I'm really glad that I tried it because I had so much fun and met loads of brilliant people, did lots of cool events. Like some days we do like five different events in different places in the world and with real people there. But just realizing how much busy work it created and how much stress and then overall, not that much more money in general at the end of the day. And it's not all about money at all. It's mainly about energy levels, really happiness levels.

[Helen]

But we put lots of this into the business course as well, because I think particularly Katie coming into live illustration and a kind of new sector of illustration and looking at it with a business brain or an entrepreneur's brain, which is not what illustrators do. Traditionally, illustrators have never been taught to consider what they do as a business. It's like, is the work that you make good or not? Those are the main parameters when you're working. So it was quite a. It was mind blowing to think, wow, we are actually operating as businesses, as a business with all these different tasks. We're our accountant, we're our marketing person, we're our new business development, we're the content provider, the whole lot. No wonder it's exhausting. And illustrators are prone to burnout. And if you don't have that business side working, it's so much harder. So Katie talked a lot about automation. Helen talked. She had VAs from an early stage. Like, wow, illustrators can pay for someone's time to help and support them. You'd got your newsletter working really well. All those kind of things that start to contribute to a better paid career are really important. And I think that's got to be one of the ways out of burnout, if that's where you're headed.

[Katie]

I feel like I was heading for burnout. It was partly to do with. I got very excited about working digitally as well and started drawing a lot on Procreate using my iPad A lot. And then I realized I was getting, like, tension down my arm and one side of my body and my neck. And it took me ages to. I actually went to doctors a few times saying, I've got really sore boob. Why is my boob sore? What's going on? Turned out to be illustrator's boob. You hold your iPad in one arm for too long until you totally seize up. And all of my muscles on my left hand side were just done. So part of my burnout was actual physical exhaustion from working digitally. And it would hurt my eyes and I would get migraines. And I got very excited by Procreate for a long time and then realized it had taken quite a big toll on my body. And so the next book, I did a whole book on Procreate, was very excited by it. And then at the end of it, thought, hang on a minute, I think I'm actually. I'm actually injuring myself here. I'm going to stop this. And was craving paper again. So the next book, I got back out in my studio with my paper, my light box, my radio on beside me, dog asleep on my feet, and thought, oh, yeah, this is. This is why I'm an illustrator. Because as a kid, we'd go on holiday in the caravan. My mum would put the felt pens on the floor, get my piece of paper out, sit in front of that gas fire in the caravan with that smell, the rain on the top of the caravan. And hours would go by in my own world of drawing. And as soon as I got back to paper again, I was like, oh, this feels good in my body. Like, this is better for me. And so now I still do love Procreate. I think it's really exciting. But I use it more for roughs, note taking, quick sketches of things. Just. I don't use it. I wouldn't illustrate it. I use it to illustrate a whole book again. It's just too physically demanding.

[Marlouse]

Yeah. So you think just the excitement of saying, because you get excited about projects.

[Katie]

And then.

[Marlouse]

Yeah, the iPad was fast as well. So it's like your excitement was fast and the iPad was.

[Katie]

Yeah. And I could sit on my bed and illustrate a whole book on my bed. And it just felt like, oh, this is the answer. No, it isn't the answer. I ended up feeling absolutely full of adrenaline. You know, if you spent a whole day too much scrolling, too much time on it, at the end of the day, I would just feel like that it's not good. Which is. Whereas drawing on paper makes me feel Relaxed, it does the opposite. It calms me down, makes me feel good, it feels centered. Whereas I realized drawing on the iPad actually does something different to your brain. It might be handy, easy to pick up work anywhere, work quicker. But it takes its toll physically. And I thought I am reaching burnout. And I think it was all the screen time.

[Marlouse]

Yeah, it makes sense. Wouldn't it not naturally meant to because you could.

[Helen]

You can also constantly check other things while you're doing that. I don't know whether you have. If when you're on procreate, do you nip out and have a quick look at whatever beeped and yeah, something you suddenly want.

[Katie]

Little pop up will come in. You've had an email. Oh, I better look at my emails. Whereas when I'm in my studio, I put my Chris Watson bird sounds on and it's all recorded on Holy Island. You can hear the boats masts clicking, you can hear the birds, the wind. And I am off in my own world and hours go by. I have no idea if anybody knocked at the door or an email came in. I don't want to know. When you're on your iPad, you're constantly this intrusion all the time. And I'll just have a quick look to see if those socks are still in urni clo and then you're distracted and you're off and you got to get back in again.

[Marlouse]

Oh, it's totally the freak flag thing, isn't it? Like getting back to that thing you loved as a child, the caravan, drawing.

[Helen]

Magic and finding the way to get into whatever your zone is like, you remember when we were listening, you told us about Blind Boys podcast when you talked about creating the zone which will get the best out of you. And it's also sensory dependent and I think the temptations of a screen are awful. I've worked like that for years and when I'm working intensively on the screen, my eyes are just dry and sore. I can see on my face that my eyes look exhausted. And it was only when my son Joe said, oh, you need a gamer's lamp, mum. You know, you just clip it over the top of the screen and it down lights the screen. The difference between looking at your screen at night in a poorly lit room or having this kind of gamer's lamp over the top of it.

[Katie]

I've never heard of that.

[Helen]

Honestly, it was night and day.

[Katie]

What is it?

[Helen]

It's just like different light settings, from blue light to yellow light, whichever one you want. And for some reason because it it lights it Put lights. So it puts light in front of the screen as though you've got some really good lighting on in the room. And it stops the eye ache. And when I turn it off and I think I worked for 20 years like this in the evening looking at the screen, no wonder my eyes were scratchy and dry and exhausted. It make. I think all these little bits and bobs are worth doing. Like good seating, lighting it all properly so you don't get screene eye.

[Katie]

Yeah.

[Helen]

Wow, that would help. What else works for burnout besides saying no?

[Katie]

Walk in, walk in. I'm so glad we have Peggy because if I'm really stressed about work, she's constantly putting her paw on my knee going, remember me, remember me. Are we going out yet? I'll just go and get my ball. That might remind you. That has been brilliant having a dog because I have no choice. I have to get out for a good long walk in the middle of the day. That helps.

[Helen]

That clears the brain, doesn't it? Do you get good ideas when you're walking?

[Katie]

Yeah.

[Helen]

Like problems?

[Katie]

Yeah. If I'm on a tricky illustration where I can't get things to sit properly or for some reason I can't get this puzzle of this illustration straight, go for a walk. And often, even if I don't think about on the walk, when I come back I can see it more clearly and fix it.

[Helen]

Yeah, yeah.

[Katie]

I love a walk in the middle of the day. Also exercise on a morning exercise before I even do anything. You are good. Yeah, yeah.

[Helen]

What do you use for burnout?

[Marlouse]

I was thinking, so like I had to avoid it. I think it's sometimes really hard to know what's happening because you're in that treadmill. I think I'm just like, do it, do it, do it. Whenever I was like, woohoo, you're doing so well. Like I have here so well. It's fine. I had a business coaching session in the summer. I think it was like July or something. And it was with a mentor that I've worked with with before. But it was quite an expensive session. So I was like, you know, I'm gonna get loads out of this. And it was about like, you know, up, leveling, getting to the next level. But it turned out in this session she was like, it sounds like you don't want to do any. Like you don't want to build it big enough. Like, no, you're right, I don't. And it was just actually so powerful and so good to have somebody almost like hold up a mirror and be like, this is what I'm hearing. And I was like, the power of therapy. It was, it was like therapy.

[Katie]

I recently had some therapy sessions and basically she just calmed me down about things that were actually not worrying at all. And you know, I've had the same therapist for years and years and years. I've been having psychotherapy from like 20 years on and off. Like intense at first, for the first nearly 10 years and then top ups when I need them now. Anyway, on the last session. I've known this therapist for years and years and years now and she knows me inside out. And she said, helen, I don't want to hear you again until you sort out that adrenaline. Because the adrenaline was making me think I had problems. There were not problems. And just a bit of exercise every day, take the dog out, a bit of meditation. She said, I don't want to hear from you till you start all day. Adrenaline. Thank you.

[Marlouse]

Looking after your human body, isn't it?

[Katie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Helen]

Especially as you get older as well. It's much harder, I think, as you. Well, for women particularly as well, when you approach menopause and you're more aware that you're aging and you can't do as much, you can't work like you did when you were 30 and 40. I mean, I would never consider an all nighter now. I did plenty of them in my 20s and 30s, but that would just be way too exhausting. Yeah, you've just got to moderate how much that you can take on and learn to schedule how long things take. Because I think you get to a certain age and you know how long your drawings take. Like a one day editorial you can gauge or I guess you must know from books how long a book's gonna take you.

[Katie]

Sort of, yeah, sort of, yeah. Do you know what? That's an impossible question. I just know that I've just got to ride with it, however long it takes. And usually publishers are pretty good about that. I was gonna say. Yeah. As you get older, you get more responsibilities of other people as well. Your parents and your grown up children and your dog who's getting old and a bit ill and you get more and more other things to take care of. So you've got to be realistic about your time.

[Helen]

I think that's why we talk a lot about scheduling on the business course and just starting to write down schedules with whoever you're working with so you take control instead of going, okay, I'm in the saddle now. I don't know how long they're Going to need me. How many revisions we'll need. I wonder what the deadline on this project will really be. And, you know, after a while, those projects can just go on and on and there's mission creep and it crashes into other projects and that's where the stress really happens. But if you learn to schedule it and to give that to clients, you feel a much greater sense of control and you also understand the work's done. I said I would give it two days. I could carry on. I could give it eight more days. Would it actually be any better? You work with what you've got and how long you've got and you take control of the timing of it. That really helps.

[Marlouse]

Have there been times when you've been burnt out and, like, had to stop and have a break or.

[Helen]

Yeah, definitely. I'm trying to think. I think I went completely doolally at one point to the I couldn't get out of bed stage and I couldn't answer the phone to clients. I can't remember what triggered it, but it probably was just too much work and it felt really horrible. I just thought, I don't think I can do this anymore. I actually cannot do it. I don't know if I can even draw anymore. I lost all my confidence. I think that was probably. The children were really young and it might have been some postnatal depression in there and taking on too much work and combined with friends leaving Hong Kong. I think one of the problems of living abroad is you make really good friends who become your family and people inevitably leave because it's not their home. And it was just. It sounds mad to say, but I was so sad to say goodbye to my friends Wick and Rob, because we parented together. I think all of it just combined into one. And I'd also had a client had really screwed me over. And I think I suddenly realized how easy it was to work really hard for someone for a whole year and then for them to walk away. I was paid, but I was given no access to the work, so I couldn't use it to market what I was doing. I'd been so excited. I was like, once this gets on my website, I'm going to get loads of jobs. And they were like, no, you can't actually have any of the photos. There are silly things like that. And I think if it all combines into one perfect storm, you suddenly feel you just can't juggle it anymore.

[Marlouse]

Yeah.

[Helen]

So, yeah, that took a while to recover. I went home to the UK in the summer and Graham and Graham flew with me with the kids. And when we got there, he had to come back after two weeks. But I could stay. And I realized I'd literally got a phobia. I couldn't fly back with the children. I've never had a phobia about flying. But that's how the burnout translated. I said to my mum, we live with you now. I can't go back home anymore because I can't get on the flight with the children. It's just too much to take two toddlers on a 14 hour flight. And I remember now, I was also teaching at the same time. Both kids were really small. I was teaching part time and illustrating. And it took my mom to say to me, do you really need to do all of this? And I was like, yeah, that's what we're supposed to do. I meant to teach and I meant to be an illustrator and a mom. And she was like, I think you need to drop one of those. Just choose the one that you least like. Sadly, it was teaching because, you know, obviously as an illustrator you want to do your core activity. And that's when things did get better. And I had to do lots of swimming and lots of yoga and trying to relax and yeah, I got over it.

[Marlouse]

Yeah. I think that's the thing, is that sometimes you do just have to stop.

[Katie]

I think it's good to prioritize, make a list, which is the one that makes you feel best, which one is paying the bills, which one could I drop out of all of this? I've had to do that. Yeah. I think that's a career long thing, isn't it? Reevaluating which bit of this is enjoyable? Am I still drawing every day? No.

[Marlouse]

What?

[Katie]

What?

[Helen]

And also putting your prices up, looking at it like a business. What can you automate? What can you outsource to someone to help you and not work so hard and recognize the signs when they're incoming and take action?

[Marlouse]

Definitely. Like, you get to know your own red flags, don't you?

[Helen]

Yeah.

[Marlouse]

I think for me, like when I was looking at those stress balls in the ball, I was like, oh, no.

[Helen]

Was it like a big fat ironic joke?

[Marlouse]

Yeah, I was just like, I want to like stop and be like, what are you doing? Why have you printed stress ball?

[Katie]

Yeah, printed stress balls. And I bet they were talking about the environment and how eco conscious they.

[Marlouse]

Are and just like just made a.

[Katie]

Big ball of landfill.

[Marlouse]

And I was like, there's probably bin bags of them behind the scenes somewhere.

[Helen]

Yeah, just. Yeah, you've got to listen to yourself, haven't you? Need to know when you're feeling like you can't cope because it can knock you out for a while. A lot of illustrators have talked about it, haven't they? Like Emma Carlisle, Maria.

[Katie]

Sorry, Marlouste. Yeah. Sign up for her newsletter because she's. She's still going through it and she's tackling it, isn't she? Every newsletter we hear what stage? Yeah, she is out with it. She's suffered very badly with it and.

[Helen]

It'S a kind of work ethic thing as well. I think certain people have a very ingrained work ethic which is like it doesn't matter if you're crying yourself to sleep, keep working. This is what you wanted. Yeah. Show must go on and all of that and ignoring it or ignoring how you feel about it. And she's been amazingly frank and open about tackling those feelings.

[Katie]

I love her newsletters, they're brilliant. They're packed with information as well. Not just about burnout, but about business and charging enough and all of that. Yeah, I recommend it.

[Helen]

I'm speaking to Marlowe's next week on copyright for the business course and she's going to be such a winner on that. She's good.

[Marlouse]

I thought you'd got some juicy questions about it.

[Helen]

Yeah, definitely the nitty gritty stuff. It's just tooling yourself up really, isn't it? You can't wander into illustration and think, I draw well, I like to work for people. It's kind of not enough. You have to protect yourself as much as possible to make it a functional business that you can do at least for, you know, if you're in it for the long haul, you've got to learn as much as you can. Yeah.

[Marlouse]

And like learning about your own energy levels as well is really important because I don't know, I've talked about human design a little bit, haven't I? It's like it was a bit woo woo. But when I found out on the human design thing that I was a projector, that the thing for projectors is they have to wait to be invited to do stuff. And that makes total sense. I was like, oh my God. Because it was used to. Invited me to do the good ship basically. And that's when like things got really exciting. And then also the other thing is projectors are good at like zooming out and helping other people to direct the energy. But the projector shouldn't always be doing all the work themselves. And I think the world does not really encourage that sort of behavior. It's like, no, you just get on with it, get it done. Like, do it fast. So I think you're learning about that and learning that I can, like, help other people do things more efficiently. And I can see how things could be more efficient, but I don't necessarily have to be the one doing the work. Has been really interesting.

[Helen]

That's. That's very much the teacher role, isn't it? I mean, sometimes I worry. I think, God, you're not illustrating enough every day. But I know a project will come along and then it will be deep immersion for six months, as maps usually are. But I really enjoy teaching what I've learned. But there is a certain amount of guilt. You think I should be doing what I'm talking about every single day, but you actually can't. It's unsustainable.

[Katie]

I think it's unsustainable. I think, particularly if you work in intense periods like you do on your big project sometimes, and I do with a picture book. It's very intense for a period of time. And then you don't feel like doing it again for a little while. And you do need to take a break. You can't even draw in every day. Doesn't seem possible when you've just finished a book. And I think that's. That's reasonable. And you need to recharge your batteries and come back when you feel inspired again.

[Marlouse]

It's like natural cycles, isn't it?

[Katie]

Yeah.

[Marlouse]

Be like hammering out loads of work all the time.

[Katie]

Yeah.

[Marlouse]

Or if you are, you might burn out.

[Katie]

Yeah.

[Marlouse]

So it's good to have rests.

[Katie]

Yeah.

[Helen]

Take all the shirts out of your life. That could be the best way to avoid burnout.

[Katie]

Yeah. Yeah. That was one of the great things when I started therapy. I'd never thought about that before, but she kept saying, you keep saying should. Stop saying should.

[Marlouse]

There's a book that I really want to read. I haven't read it yet, but it's called the Courage to Be Disliked. And I think that's going to be interesting. Even the title, I was like, imagine.

[Helen]

Couple that with you are not a to do list and you're probably on your way.

[Marlouse]

Yeah. Maybe don't need to read the book. Just carry on.

[Katie]

Yeah.

[Marlouse]

Excited about the title.

[Katie]

Yeah. Just read the title. That's it. The rest is probably filler. To be fair, a lot of those help felt books are. They'll have a really good message, but they've had to stretch it out into a book. And so they just keep saying the same thing again and again and you.

[Helen]

Think, oh, I got that on chapter one. Where are we going now?

[Marlouse]

Yeah, I'm very good.

[Helen]

So I think we're done, aren't we?

[Katie]

Yeah. Brilliant.

[Helen]

Hope it's been useful to you if you're feeling a little bit stressed. Yeah.

[Katie]

Look after yourself.

[Marlouse]

Yeah, bye.