'They keep asking me to tone it down.' Flying your freak flag in their faces 🚩

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "They keep asking me to tone it down." Flying your freak flag in their faces 🚩

The Good Ship Illustration
Release Date: May 22, 2026
Hosts: Helen Stephens, Katie Chappell, Tania Willis

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Helen, Katie, and Tania take on a heartfelt listener’s question: How can illustrators break away from drawing traditionally and embrace a more exaggerated, personal style—especially when confronted by publishers and educators who may push for conformity? Using the work of Russian illustrator Victoria Semykina as a springboard, they explore ideas of finding your voice, confidently flying your “freak flag,” and the challenges within art education systems that can stifle creative individuality.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Power and Value of Authentic Artistic Voice

• The episode opens with the trio deeply moved by Christian Robinson’s book “Dad”—marveling at its emotional honesty and unique perspective ([00:30 – 01:16]).
• They segue into discussing how admired artists like Victoria Semykina achieve distinctive, emotive styles—often by drawing from life and personal passions, not just technical skill.

"So she's not been... What did you—that phrase you used about illustrators looking at other illustrators? Like... If you're just looking within your own thing, it's almost like inbreeding, like you're not getting fresh influences."
—Tania, 05:07–05:15

2. Learning to Exaggerate & Break the Mold

• Listener Shannarama (who has aphantasia and dyslexia) asks how to learn to exaggerate and break from drawing “realistic” forms, and why some exaggerated work is celebrated while others are told to “tone it down” ([01:21–03:29]).
• The hosts agree it’s often about having something to say and letting that passion feed your drawing, rather than adhering to generic standards or trends.

"If you're starting with something you love as your source material, it pushes your drawing ability... She’s made the leap because she’s got something to say and she’s trying really hard to say it."
—Helen, 06:13–06:29

3. Publishing Realities and Artistic Confidence

• Emerging illustrators are often pressed by publishers to “play it safe” with style and content; the panel notes that established artists (like Semykina) with strong, authentic work are less likely to get asked to change ([03:29–07:13]).
• Finding editors and publishers who love your true style is vital—it’s like “dating” for professional compatibility ([07:23–07:51]).

"If you’re being advised to do something that isn’t natural to you, then they’re not going to be great bedfellows in terms of the visual aesthetic.”
—Helen, 07:23–07:51

• Your confidence in your work helps others accept it:

"If you really lean into it and you’re really sure that's who you are, it would be very difficult for somebody to ask you not to be that."
—Katie, 07:59–08:15

4. Art Education’s Stifling Effect

• The hosts discuss how school art curricula (especially in the UK) often value technical realism over individual vision, leading to graduates missing out on developing a unique voice ([09:13–15:41]).
• Real stories are shared—Helen’s daughter’s struggle to include personal, energetic sketches in her application folio and having to “ignore school” to succeed.

"Her school were telling her, no, you can’t put that in your folio. That’s not good. And she’d done all these drawings from life at the zoo... captured the energy of the animals... These drawings were fantastic."
—Katie, 09:43–10:23

"The school were advising her that that stuff wasn’t good enough... but we could see that was where she is in her work. That’s where her personality is and the drawing is genuinely brilliant."
—Katie, 10:28–10:46

• They empathize with students lacking artist parents/mentors to guide them away from stifling standardization ([13:29–13:48]).

5. Translating Passion and Gesture into Illustration

• The panel discusses practical ways of channeling energy and emotion into work—suggesting illustrators physically act out poses or emotions to better translate exaggerated gestures or feelings ([16:40–18:49]).

"If you feel sad and pull a sad face while you’re trying to draw, it sort of comes out through your brain, down your arm and into the drawing somehow."
—Katie, 17:45–17:52

• They praise Victoria Semykina’s minimal “gap” between rough sketch and final artwork, maintaining energy and personality.

6. Career Paths and Artistic Development

• The hosts encourage emerging illustrators to see art education and professional paths as fluid; many, like Semykina, arrive at illustration from diverse disciplines, and your personal development matters more than rigid academic silos ([19:04–19:47]).

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “Just be yourself even harder, please.”
  —Tania, 07:56

• "The work is the work. Even if it's sketches, it's only a small step into the final artwork."
  —Helen, 16:59

• "Fly your freak flag—bring it back to that as well... She's just doing what she wants to do."
  —Tania, 15:41–16:04

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:30–01:21: Discussion of Christian Robinson’s book “Dad” and artists inspiring emotional authenticity
• 01:21–03:29: Listener Shannarama’s question about exaggeration and style in illustration
• 03:29–07:13: Exploring why some artists “get away with” unique styles and the role of confidence and career backgrounds
• 09:13–15:41: Critique of art education systems and students’ struggle to showcase individuality
• 16:40–18:49: Acting out poses and emotions to translate energy into illustration
• 19:04–19:47: Art school experience as a launchpad, not a limiter

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Conclusion

This episode celebrates the courage to embrace a distinctive, personal illustration style—despite systemic pressures to conform. By sharing both personal experience and high-profile examples, the hosts urge illustrators to “be yourself even harder,” seek out likeminded publishers, and honor the emotional, energetic core of their own work. Their encouragement: fly your freak flag high—it’s what makes illustration exciting, lasting, and uniquely yours.

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Transcript

[A]

Sa. Yeah. Welcome back. We've all been in tears this morning.

[B]

Oh, my goodness. I bought the new Christian Robinson book called dad when I was in Waterstones yesterday. And I've just sat at the table and read it all out. We all had tears running down our faces.

[C]

It needs a warning on the front, like, you will cry.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It is so beautiful because it shows every aspect of being a dad, good and bad, even the angry bits and the sad bits and the tears and the happy bits. It is such a beautiful book.

[C]

It's a very 360 human dad view, isn't it?

[A]

Yeah, totally. And you know, and in interviews, knowing that he said he was brought up without a father, when you know that and read the book as well, it's. It's so much more bittersweet and tender. It's lovely.

[B]

Beautiful.

[C]

Even thinking about it, I'm like, oh,

[A]

we're big fans already, so to see that and.

[C]

Yeah, I need to play a copy now. Yeah.

[A]

Jealous.

[B]

Okay, we got a question. Do you want to hear it?

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Okay. So this is from. It is from Shannarama, that's her name on Instagram. And she explains that she has Aphantasia and that she listened to our elephantasia podcast, as we called it. And she also has dyslexia. And so she left me a voice message which I've transcribed here. So she says, in England specifically, because that's the only place that I learned art. Everything is drawn from real form. So I think she means, like, drawn from life. So that's how we're storing the information. What I'm curious about is this. I admire lots of artists, particularly from Russia, like Victoria Semykina and another Elena Ellis, who I hadn't heard of before, but I did a search and her work is lovely. She says they are so brilliant at doing misshapen bodies with exaggerated features and arms and small heads. How are they taught art? For them to be able to draw those figures, they are really emotive to us, really emotive to me. I would love to be able to draw in a more exaggerated way. But how do you learn that? How do you break away from the more exact shapes of human beings? And how is that accepted? Because so often I or somebody else will show designers, art directors, their work and they'll say, oh, no, that child looks a bit too old for their age group. And that looks really young. But yet, you know, when you have these kind of figures that are really amazing and they're accepted. Yeah. So I suppose she's saying Sometimes you're art directed out of doing those exaggerated shapes. And she's saying that sometimes publishers make comments like, all of your characters have got to have circles for eyes and dots for eyes. And when she sees Victoria's work, the characters have all got different eyes and nobody's correcting her about that. Yeah. So, yeah. And I think this question's really interesting, isn't it? Because there's the education part of it and then there's the publishing part of it, and then there's your own voice and holding on to your own voice and how do you do that?

[C]

And confidence to just do your work as you do it and not be. I suppose it's harder maybe, if you're starting out, isn't it? Because you haven't got a proven track record in publishers. They just want a safe bet, really, don't they? Well, they don't just want a safe bet. They want to know what they're getting. And maybe because Victoria has such a incredible career and she's got the fine art background and everything.

[B]

I think that might be the key with Victoria, because I did some. I didn't know a lot about her before we went to see that exhibition in Bologna, didn't we? And it was fantastic. But by then my brain was scrambled from all of the gorgeousness in Bologna and I didn't do any reading. I just admit I looked at the pictures. So I. And when we got this question, I thought, I'll do a bit more research into her gorgeous work. And I found this brilliant substack that's called Four Artists. And there's an interview with Victoria on there, and she says that she studied fine art in Russia and then she studied printmaking in Italy and then accidentally became an illustrator when she posted some drawings from Life on Instagram. And a. I've forgotten the magazine, but quite a prestigious magazine saw it and asked her to do a few pieces. So she accidentally became an illustrator and she says that she really loves jazz parties and jazz dancing and you can really see that in her work, can't you? It doesn't look like she's looking at other illustrators for inspiration. She's come from printmaking and fine art and she loves jazz and jazz dancing and she likes to draw from life at jazz parties. She likes to draw the band and the musicians. You can really see that in her work, can't you? So she's not been. What did you. That phrase you used upon about illustrators looking at other illustrators? Like.

[C]

Oh, it's almost. Yeah.

[B]

Like if you look at.

[C]

If you're just looking within your own thing, it's almost like inbreeding, like you're not getting fresh influences.

[A]

But also, it means that, you know, we've talked about this before. The subject matter, the content, what she loves. She loves it so much that she wants her drawings to convey her love of jazz and the bit of jazz dancing she likes. Because you can see in the crazy gestures of the figures that she shows, particularly in this traveling exhibition that was in Bologna when we were there. A lot of that was to do with 1930s films like Charlie Chaplin, lots of body language, and Metropolis, which had lots of really kind of iconic shapes of figures and hairdos in it. And she takes so much pleasure in all of those things that the content is what drives her urge to exaggerate the figures, to convey what she loves about dance and things like that. And I think if you're starting with something you love as your source material, it pushes your drawing ability. Because having been to a Russian school, she will have been completely schooled in technical ability. So, you know, they have very traditional fine art drawing. So she will have mastered that craft, which is kind of like a lot of people say, if I've been drawing from life for so long, how do I make that leap? But she's made the leap because she's got something to say, and she's trying really hard to say it.

[B]

I think it's interesting when you see her sketchbooks as well, because when she's drawing from life, it's in her sketchbook. So she Obviously, you know, when you interpret something that you draw from life, the way it appears in your sketchbook has a lot of you in it. You don't literally draw what you see from life. It's filtered through your eyes. And her sketchbooks are already. They've already got that design aesthetic in there. So I think drawing from life, it's really useful to see whether you have that, like, what your natural. What you lean towards naturally, and then be aware of that and exaggerate that. So I would say with the person who's written in this message, to really lean into it, really go for it. And maybe publishers are advising you out of it, maybe because they see hesitancy and they don't know that this is your strong visual language. I don't know. You have to be careful who you take advice from as well, don't you?

[A]

Yeah, I think so. And I think when you see art directors who may seem as though they're behaving like art tutors, by telling you that's not the way to draw something, they may be, they're saying, our publishing house prefers it to look this way. And if in that case, you kind of don't want to be with those people, they may be not the right publisher for you. It's a bit like dating. If you're being advised to do something that isn't natural to you, then they're not going to be great bedfellows in terms of the visual aesthetic.

[C]

You want somebody who loves you because they love your work, they love you as you are.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

Just be yourself even harder, please.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think if you really lean into it and you're really sure that's who you are, it would be very difficult for somebody to ask you not to be that. Yeah. I imagine the more you lean into being yourself, the less likely it is for an art director to try and talk you out of it.

[C]

And half the battle of illustration is just carrying on, isn't it? And if you're doing something that just comes naturally, you feel so strongly about doing anyway, then it's going to be way easier to have that longevity if you're doing what you love.

[A]

I think because she's a fine artist as well. She's always been told, you, you provide the content. If you're the artist, then you know what you're working about. A bit like a picture book illustrator in many ways. If you're an illustrator and an author, you're driving the content and the content will be attuned to what you like drawing and you like drawing what you're into in life, so it kind of syncs together. Whereas think if you're an illustrator, like, I'm a pen for hire. Have you got a story for me? What would you. What would you like me to draw? It leaves you susceptible to being swayed by what people want in terms of style. Yeah. I can't think how else to describe it, but, you know, she draws what she loves and there's this fervor to get it over to people.

[B]

I'm thinking about that. In my experience, watching my daughter go through school, I feel like there's. At least in British education, there's a problem with this. Right. From really early in education, because we've watched her. It's really frustrating to watch. Actually, to pass her exam, her work needed to be a certain thing, and it was mostly realism. And I have nothing against realism, but it seemed like this is the way that you pass your exam. You do realism and you do it well. And then when it Came time to apply to art school, we looked at her work and it's brilliant, it's very skilled. But the stuff she'd done at school wasn't really her personality. She'd done all this other work at home. That's incredible. Really brilliant work at home. And so we were saying to her, you need to put that in your folio. But her school were telling her, no, you can't put that in your folio. That's not good. And she'd done all these drawings from life at the zoo and the animals moved quickly and she'd captured the energy of the animals and she'd been drawing from films, sitting in front of the TV and drawing while the. While TV was on, not pressing pause, just drawing and drawing. These drawings were fantastic.

[A]

We saw them and they were. She's not just being delusional, Proud mom. They were amazing.

[B]

I am delusional, proud mom. But I think she genuinely is good as well. Where was it going? Oh, yes. The school were advising her that that stuff wasn't good enough to put in her folio, but we could see that was where she is in her work. That's where her personality is and the drawing is genuinely brilliant. So she had to work really hard to ignore school. She had to stop going into school at certain art lessons where they were getting the folio ready, we were advising her to do that and calling in sick for her. I wanted to speak. I wanted to speak to the art teacher, but she didn't want me to. And so she managed to make this folio herself, putting in the work that she really liked and carefully not showing it to the teacher until it was too late and got into all of the art schools of her choice. Unconditional, she's brilliantly. Unconditional offers. And she's got into Glasgow School of Art. Obviously, I am showing off about her.

[C]

Too late.

[B]

It's just brilliant, really brilliant. She's done so well, but then she's got all these unconditional offers everywhere that she wanted to go and now she has to get through her final exam at school and they're now telling her to take that all back out of her folio, because that is not what the exam board want and they need all of the work in the folio to link together in a very literal fashion. And it's infuriating. It's absolutely infuriating. And we've been advising her to ignore it and not going to school. Luckily, she's pretty stubborn and she knows which work she likes and she's Fought

[A]

her case because of growing up with two artists. She's gotten a really advanced understanding of what she wants to do and what her work would be about. I guess the A level syllabus, which is quite limiting, is spoon feeding observational drawings still lives development of.

[B]

I have to say they've barely done any observational drawing.

[A]

Really.

[B]

They do a lot of it. This is in the Scottish system of I've speaking to other people. I think the English system is the same. She's barely done any drawing from life. In fact, I'm trying to remember if they had. No. A lot of taking a photo on their iPad and drawing from the iPad. Yeah. And realism. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, my God. No. Having interviewed for Glasgow 30 years ago and interviewed for Chinese schools and plenty of places, I know that what I saw in your daughter's folder was. Would have blown anyone away. You would get into college. That's what they're looking for. They don't expect it because they know they're looking at A level syllabuses most of the time or work that's come out of that. But if they see something that's kind of personally driven, yeah, you definitely get in. And it was the right thing to do. But I just. I don't know why. It's a sausage factory form of prescriptive drawing in art if it's not observational, if it's drawing from photos, that's just criminal. Well, creatively, yeah.

[C]

I feel sorry for the students that don't have artist parents.

[B]

Exactly. That's what I was just gonna say the same thing.

[C]

Imagine when you're at school and you're a good child, you want to please your teachers, you do what you're told, you follow the rules, you tick all the boxes, you get an A and you go, yay. And then you apply to art school and they go, no way.

[B]

We know a student that happened to and she's really talented. Her work is incredible. But was advised that all of the work should be the realism. All of it. And she applied to a prestigious art school who I'm sure she. I am convinced she's talented enough to get in. But her folio probably just looked like everybody else who applied who didn't have artistic parents or friends like you two. Because Frida came and had a chat with you, didn't she? And Evie about colleges are looking for. That was so helpful. Yeah. I really feel for kids who don't have that outside advice.

[A]

And I also. You know, this isn't meant to be a condemnation of school art. Teachers either, because they're our sister and brethren, really. They went through their job, aren't they? Yeah, they're doing a job they've been told to do. The examination boards have decided that their interpretation of creativity and the ability to draw technically must be demonstrated through these exercises. And those exercises are reductive. They don't show anything about, about the child or about their potential creativity. And it's art schools have to look at that work and think, okay, I understand what this kid has been asked to do, but can we within there see a few shreds of personality or individuality and character and drive? Whereas Frieda was lucky enough to be able to leapfrog all of that and with her strength of kind of stubbornness, refuse to do it and negotiate it carefully enough to get the two things she wanted.

[B]

But I was speaking to teachers, they feel really frustrated that they're stuck in the system. It's not individual teachers fault. It's just a bonkers system.

[A]

They must be so cheesed off being forced to teach something that they know isn't genuine creativity. Because that's what the, you know, the examining boards have requested as part of the syllabus or get a few letters about their struggling.

[C]

I suppose in reference to Shannarama's question as well. It's kind of the same as a grown up as well. Like you think you're doing all the right things. You're like, I'm gonna do, but the publisher tells me I'm gonna do what this person tells me. When really when you just do what you want to do and fly your freak flag. Bring it back to that as well. Like the, like Victoria's work. She's just doing what she wants to do. And everyone's like, oh my goodness, this is amazing.

[A]

Yeah, she's. I mean, she's literally one of the most popular illustrations you can see. Why? Because it's just so full of character and excitement. And you know that the other thing I like about you were talking about the sketches was the gap between her sketchbook work and the final work is really slim. You know, she just brings a bit of color to it, but everything is kept with the same original excitement from the sketches. So there's not that huge bridge between here's my sketches. And then I bored myself silly by painting this in a very refined and overly rendered way to call it final artwork. So she's also a great example of.

[C]

It's like Jo, we did the one to one reviews and somebody's work they'd like gorgeous collage and it was all edgy and exciting. And then they did picture book illustration. And it was. It looked like they thought, now I am going to do children's illustration. And you could see, I think that's Victoria's work. She's. You can see she's not gone. Now I will do illustration. It's just happened, like by accident almost.

[A]

Yeah. The work. The work is the work. Even if it's sketches, it's only a small step into the final artwork. You know, some of it is just a matter of just enlarging it. I mean, her big painting was. She had so much great work in that show. If it travels near, you, try and see it. I can't remember the title of it, but maybe we'll get that in the show notes. But you remember sometimes as well, Helen, you would say if you're trying to get that feeling in a bodily gesture in a drawing, and in fact, I was doing it yesterday, you have to stand in the pose and you have to feel it in your head. You start feeling it and then you end up standing up, doing it, maybe trying to photograph yourself.

[C]

I need someone pulling funny faces sometimes. I'm enjoying like, or trying to draw sad.

[B]

It really helps, doesn't it?

[C]

It does, yeah.

[B]

It really helps. If you feel sad and pull a sad face while you're trying to draw, it sort of comes out through your brain, down your arm and into the drawing somehow.

[A]

Because you have to exaggerate the body language as well to. To transpose the meaning. Because often character based illustration can only do so much without extra visual props to indicate this person is feeling this or this person is doing that, or there's another person and this is their interaction. If you've only got one kind of figure to express it through, you use absolutely everything you've got. So I was standing up pretending to be a Tudor barmaid who was really bad at maths and had been underpaid and ripped off by garrison soldiers.

[C]

Could that be the image of this podcast? I don't want your sketches. I want you.

[A]

Okay. It's like Tudor Bet lynch, who failed O level maths and still can't add up and has been ripped off. So, yeah, I think standing up and doing gestures is the only way to get that conveyed.

[C]

Hopefully that helps.

[A]

It'd be good if you have a Russian background in drawing figures as well. Technical backgrounds in drawing does no harm at all. As long as you can make that big leap into something, into transforming those drawings and that knowledge into something else.

[B]

I think it's really interesting that she studied fine art and that she's ended up doing illustration. It just. I. This is what I've been saying to Frieda about going to art school. It doesn't really matter what you study there. Just the experience of being at art school, full stop. When you come out the other end, you're still a baby, and you could be anything.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. And there's so many people who come to illustration from the graphic design end, where they were probably drawing, but it was still a lot more typographically or photographically focused. And other people who come from fine art, where they were drawing all the time, so many people meet in the middle in illustration, which is why Bologna is so exciting, because there were loads of those people there. Okay.

[B]

Okay, Love you.

[C]

Bye. Bye.

[B]

Bye bye. It.