What you workin' on, pal? A Good Ship Illustration chat.

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Good Ship Illustration – "What you workin' on, pal? A Good Ship Illustration chat."

In this engaging episode of The Good Ship Illustration, hosts Helen Stephens, Katie Chappell, and Tanya Willis delve into their current projects, collaborative creative processes, and the challenges of managing workload to maintain a sustainable illustration career. Released on November 29, 2024, the episode offers valuable insights for illustrators and image-makers navigating the creative landscape.

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1. Helen’s Current Projects and Studio Setup

The conversation kicks off with Tanya inquiring about Helen’s current endeavors. Helen shares her journey towards establishing a clear creative strategy:

Tanya [00:11]: “What are you working on? What have you been writing down that you've been working on, Tanya?”

Helen reveals her struggles with maintaining focus on personal projects alongside client work. She discusses her decision to apply for artist residencies as a means to concentrate on her own art:

Helen [00:30]: “I thought I better write it down... I’m going to go for a residency and take this seriously and call it a piece of work. I am doing a piece of work like fine artists do.”

She highlights resources like resartists.org for finding suitable residencies and shares her excitement about securing a residency in France, which provided her with the necessary environment to advance her personal map project. Additionally, Helen talks about setting up her first dedicated studio outside her home after 30 years, emphasizing the psychological benefits of having a separate workspace:

Helen [03:09]: “I got a residency in France for March, to my great surprise. Really nice place, just really lovely and I'm so excited about it.”

The establishment of her new studio marks a significant milestone, offering her a space free from household distractions and fostering a more focused creative process.

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2. Katie and Helen’s Collaborative Book Project

Transitioning to collaborative efforts, Katie discusses her partnership with Helen in writing a children’s book series. They have jointly authored eight stories commissioned by Walker, blending their unique creative voices:

Katie [10:55]: “I've consciously decided to take on less work... So I'm only working on one book at the moment, and that's books Katie and I are working on.”

Their collaborative process is dynamic and interactive, likened to the creative synergy of the Saturday Night Live writers room:

Katie [21:06]: “We write in very much the same way... We watch a load of rubbish together and talk about memories and then we just start writing.”

This partnership allows them to infuse personal experiences and humor into their stories, making the characters relatable and the narratives engaging. For instance, their character Kitty is inspired by Tanya's spirited personality, adding depth and authenticity to the storytelling.

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3. Personal Stories Inspiring Their Work

Helen shares a harrowing personal anecdote from a trip to Kerala, India, which served as inspiration for one of their stories. This experience underscores the importance of drawing from real-life events to create compelling narratives:

Helen [14:00]: “I thought I would just dive in the river... I started waving my arm in the air at a Swedish guy near me in the river shouting, excuse me.”

This near-drowning incident not only adds drama to their story but also highlights the vulnerability and spontaneous moments that shape character development.

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4. Managing Workload and Avoiding Burnout

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the challenges of managing workload to prevent burnout. Katie reflects on her past experience of overcommitting to projects, which led her to reassess her work-life balance:

Katie [10:55]: “I felt like I was on a conveyor belt. Work, work, work, work... I was heading that way.”

She emphasizes the importance of selecting projects that resonate personally and creatively:

Katie [12:05]: “I only want to do books that feel very, very exciting and connected to my life in some way or inspired by something real that makes me feel something.”

Tanya echoes these sentiments, sharing her decision to scale back her illustration business to reduce stress and enhance personal well-being:

Tanya [23:54]: “I can't do this anymore... I need to change something or I'm gonna go mad or like burn out.”

The hosts discuss strategies for maintaining a sustainable workload, such as setting boundaries, prioritizing personal projects, and the psychological benefits of having a dedicated workspace separate from home life.

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5. Future Topics and Community Engagement

The conversation concludes with the trio contemplating future podcast topics, specifically addressing burnout—a prevalent issue among illustrators. They recognize the value of discussing such challenges openly to support their community:

Katie [27:22]: “I wonder if we should do a whole podcast on burnout and about the risk of burnout because I speak to so many illustrators who struggle with this.”

They affirm the importance of sharing personal experiences and strategies to foster a supportive environment for fellow creatives.

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Notable Quotes

• Helen [03:09]: “I got a residency in France for March, to my great surprise. Really nice place, just really lovely and I'm so excited about it.”
• Katie [10:55]: “I've consciously decided to take on less work... So I'm only working on one book at the moment, and that's books Katie and I are working on.”
• Helen [14:00]: “I thought I would just dive in the river... I started waving my arm in the air at a Swedish guy near me in the river shouting, excuse me.”
• Tanya [23:54]: “I can't do this anymore... I need to change something or I'm gonna go mad or like burn out.”
• Katie [21:06]: “We write in very much the same way... We watch a load of rubbish together and talk about memories and then we just start writing.”
• Helen [27:30]: “I think we should [do a burnout podcast].”

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Conclusion

This episode of The Good Ship Illustration offers a candid look into the hosts' creative processes, the importance of collaborative projects, and the necessity of managing workload to prevent burnout. Through personal stories and professional insights, Helen, Katie, and Tanya provide valuable advice for illustrators seeking to navigate and sustain their creative careers effectively.

Transcript

[Tanya]

We used to be up in the olden days, pre everything. We would go to the cafe and the first thing we would always say was like, what are you working on? We thought, how? Well, firstly, Tanya has rocked up to this podcast recording session with a page of notes. So I am so curious, what are you working on? What have you been writing down that you've been working on, Tanya?

[Helen]

Well, I was so worried that I wasn't working on anything clear that I thought I better write it down. And when I'd written it down, I thought, this is a clear strategy for life. No, I just thought I wanted to. For the last two years, I wanted to do a map for myself, which didn't have a client and didn't have an art director to see what the outcome would be. But as it usually goes, this went to the bottom of the list over and over again. Even if I tried a kind of amateur attempt at journaling, my personal map kept going to the bottom of the list. I worked all the business stuff out about it and how I would sell it. It's going to be an art print, but it didn't actually do the work. So in order to kind of get my head straight, I decided I would apply for a residency. But I'd never thought about these things before till I saw Harriet Lee Merion, the illustrator. She did a blog post about doing residences and I was like, wow, do illustrators get residencies? I thought it was only fine artists. And I thought the only way I'm going to concentrate on something like this is to get a residency. So I looked through all this stuff on. There's a really good website called res artists without a T at the end, res artist.org and you can sign up to their newsletter, I think, for free. And it will send you a list of residencies around the world of all different types. And some of them are, you know, you have to go there, you get free accommodation, but you have to work to the theme set by the art center or whatever other ones you can pay for a bit or it's subsidized, and then there's really kind of glammy ones where you pay a fortune just to hang out with other artists. But once you get this worked out, which ones you want to do and where you want to go, you can kind of narrow it down. So I was thinking about doing that. And at the same time, one of the local Barrick groups. Sorry, this is a long way around giving you all the background. One of the Barrick arts groups got funding for people to go and get mentorship from this amazing lady called Kerry Hand. That's Kerry with a c kerryhand.com and she's a really incredible coach and mentor for mostly for fine artists, but she had a really mixed bunch with us that were kind of craftspeople, architects, designers, illustrators, and she made it work for all of us. The general principles about kind of setting goals and what you want to do with your career and prioritizing your own work. So these two things combined really helped me think, yeah, I'm going to go for a residency and take this seriously and call it a piece of work. I am doing a piece of work like fine artists do.

[Tanya]

So you've got one booked on a residency because I know you did your Spanish one well.

[Helen]

Yeah. So first I booked, I applied for a couple of residencies and just got in the groove of how to apply for them and leaving like chunks of text so you could just copy and paste that same text into the different applications. Yeah, different residency applications. So I got a residency in France for March, to my great surprise. Really nice place, just really lovely and I'm so excited about it. But that was back in early spring and I wanted to get on with the work, especially at the end of winter. I was like, just let me out of Britain. So I thought, I'll make my own, which is the other thing you can do if you don't feel like applying for them, just do a DIY residency. And a friend of mine who'd always said, you can stay in our little house in Spain, I was really grateful to them because they said, yeah, go and do a month there. So I spent a month in Spain actually starting this so called piece of work and I got halfway through it and now it's still waiting for me to complete it. So that is the ongoing project. But I also got a new studio, which is another psychological hack to make me do this work. And it's the first time I've ever had a studio outside of my home, probably for 30 years. So it feels momentous, but it's exciting. And just to do the psychological thing of this is serious. I am working on this and I'm sharing it with my daughter so we can afford it because it's a, it's a proper workspace, not a studio, which is a bit unfair. So if there's anyone out there who wants to invest in old property in Barwick to set up studios, please come. There's loads of property and loads of artists, but I'm going to take my old computer that doesn't have much on it and only take all the work and the books related to this map project. So there's nothing else to distract and hopefully that's going to happen. So we move in today.

[Katie]

Today's your move in day.

[Helen]

Yeah, it's the first day in the studio. Evie's already there, the desks are put up. So I'm really hoping this will do the thing for me, get my mindset into being a bit more. Instead of doing everything all the time at the same time, just try to get a sense of focus.

[Tanya]

Single tasking.

[Helen]

Yeah.

[Katie]

You've been missing doing your self motivated work, haven't you? So this is the. Is this the start of that?

[Helen]

Yeah, I guess there's two things because on one hand I wanted this to be the self motivated work but it's still a commercial project so it's not just. It's not going drawing, which is what I want to do. It's without aim, without anything just to draw. So if I can divide my life into two, that would be the perfect outcome and not get distracted by doing the laundry, which is the main threat to my work.

[Tanya]

That's the hardest thing about working at home because I go through phases. I'm like, yeah, I'm at the studio every day and then I'm like, oh, I wish I was just working from home. But that's the thing, you're at home, you're like, I'll just pop a wash on. Oh, I'll just.

[Helen]

Yeah.

[Tanya]

And I can make a little pan of soup while I'm working.

[Katie]

And then it's.

[Tanya]

I get loads of nice housey things done.

[Helen]

No work like at all.

[Katie]

I love working at home. If a studio opened up round the corner from my house and I could. It took me three minutes to walk there, I would have a studio. But if I have to walk any more than 10 minutes, that's it out. I really, really like working at home. I really like that all my stuff is always there. So I might work in my little outside studio all day and then I might fancy in the evening after dinner doing half an hour more and I can just knit back out or I can bring it in and put on the kitchen table while I'm chatting to Pie while she's making her dinner. Or, you know, I like that you can pick it up and put it down whenever you like. And I know if I have a studio, the work will be there and I won't be able to get it in the evening. If I just fancy sitting on the bed and messing about with it. So, yeah, I like. I really like being at home.

[Helen]

Can you do both, though? I mean, you could. I'm thinking if I can sort of send myself copies of the work back home, if I want to finish it at home, I can work in a space during the day, and if I want to pick up where I was at, I could do it in the evening.

[Katie]

I think this is why I would have a studio. You know, there was talk of a studio opening up around the corner from my house. If that happened, I would definitely have a studio, because if I forgot stuff, I could just walk around the corner and get it and bring it home.

[Helen]

Yeah. Oh, that's wonderful.

[Katie]

Or nip in on the evening and have an hour by myself in the studio. But I really don't fancy the journey of it being more official than just either wandering around the corner or wandering out in the garden to my studio.

[Helen]

We have to say at this point, people are always trying to lure Helen abroad for book conferences and talking to schools. She'll be like, oh, wow, you could go to Chile.

[Katie]

If I could be supported there without all the journey. If I could just be there with the children with none of the other stuff, I'm just in the room. We're having a great time together. Without the journey, the prep, the other admin, I would be there. Yeah. If I could have some sort of magic wand to just, like, take me in the middle of a classroom anywhere in the world, I would do that. But all the stuff involved around it.

[Helen]

So anyone who wants to book her has to basically magically materialize that.

[Tanya]

That's how I feel about the live events. If you could teleport me. So I was boop in the room.

[Katie]

Yeah.

[Tanya]

And then boop at home again. Or back in my studio, totally fine. But it is the traveling.

[Katie]

Traveling.

[Tanya]

So tired.

[Katie]

Yeah. I did it for years and years. Loads of school visits. I love the school visits. I love being in the room with the children, particularly if it's a class with a really great teacher who's really involved and they love the teacher and he can see all Latin. We. We end up having, like, really nice playtime together. That's brilliant. But the. The journey on the train and the changes and the. The travel lodge or wherever grim place you stay that night. And then when you leave this, like, you've had a great day with all the kids and then it's time to go home and everybody forgets that you were there and you just wander out the school, nobody says goodbye and you're like, oh, right, okay. I can't be bothered with that. I. Yeah, I do it sometimes, but not very often.

[Helen]

When you got the studio. Katie. Katie and I'll be on the same building now.

[Tanya]

Studio, neighbors, upstairs, neighbours.

[Helen]

Did it make the difference you wanted when you.

[Katie]

Yeah.

[Tanya]

So it was in lockdown. So I live in a tiny cottage, ancient cottage, which is very cute and lovely. And we used to have. The upstairs room was my studio. And then in lockdown, husband Cameron was also working from home and it became a bit of a. Like, we shared a studio.

[Helen]

It looks so bad.

[Tanya]

So bad. I love him very much, but it was terrible. And I bought him some noise canceling headphones, which helped. But then I got to a point I was like, I cannot be in the same room as you. Because he'd be like, look at this, this is cool. And he's very chatty. And I'm like, if you disturb me one more time, I'm moving out. So I got a studio and at that point it was so good because also, firstly, I could decorate it however I wanted. I mean, I could do it at home. But like, our house doesn't lend itself well to being super colorful and modern. It's not that sort of house. So, yeah, my studio is super, super bright and funky and exciting. It's got all my favorite things in it. And I have the heating on full blast when I'm in there. I have my noise cancelling headphones on with my music or podcasts and it's like 247 access. Not that I go there 24 7, but yeah, it was just so good to have a place to go to work and be at work and then come home and be at home. Because in when we couldn't leave the house, I feel like we just go. I go on about lockdown all the time. I'm sorry, but when I was working and living in the same place, it did just bled like my whole life was an online event and I was like hating it so much at that point. So then going to the studio, doing a job, coming home, being a home, that really helped. And it helps now because I've got deadlines. I just leave the house a total mess, go to the studio, get the work done, come home and carry on ignoring the mess.

[Helen]

Yeah, that's what I wanted to do for me. Right, so what are you two working on? So, Helen, you go first.

[Katie]

What are you doing? Well, well, I'm a bit quieter than I used to be, which is really nice. I've consciously decided to take on less work Because I'm going to mention lockdown again, pre lockdown. I felt like I was on a conveyor belt. Work, work, work, work. One book, next book, next book. Other books going on the go in the background. At the same time, while I was doing another one, offers at work had come in illustrating other people's texts, and basically my excitement about projects got the better of me. So I would be like, that's exciting. Yes. Without thinking about it. And then I decided that I would actually, whenever an offer came in, no matter how exciting, I would look at it, give it a few days, sleep on it, and then decide, even if it's exciting, do I have time for this, do I want to do it? Because the adrenaline in my body from constantly being excited by projects and then realizing the reality and the amount of work involved, I don't think I hit burnout, but I was heading that way. So, yeah, I consciously decided to take on less work. Also, it was really great when we designed the Find your Creative Voice course, because in there we talk about your work being a mixture of two things. So it's like how you hold your pen, what materials you use, how you like to put the work on the paper, there's all that visual stuff, but there's also the contents of your brain, like what makes you you, what do you want to work about? How is your work going to be connected to you as a person? All of that stuff. And this was a really, really good reminder to me that I should only do the projects that have those two things really integral to them. So I only want to do books that feel very, very exciting and connected to my life in some way or inspired by something real that makes me feel something. So, yeah, I'm just. I just got off that conveyor belt and that's been really, really nice. So I'm only working on one book at the moment, and that's books Katie and I are working on. We're writing together, aren't we? And we've written eight stories. Walker have commissioned us. We've written eight stories, and now I'm doing rough drawings for the first set of stories. And it's very exciting. It's very, very kind of close to our hearts. It feels like it's kind of about us and where we live. These characters live in an upturned boat. There are these upturned boat sheds around where we live in Northumberland. There's a character in it called Kitty, who we've based on Tanya. It's based on Tanya's kind of reckless enjoyment of Life. And some of this, I mean, Tanya sounds when you listen to the podcast, like she's the Radio 4 voice of the good ship. But the reality of Tanya's life, Tanya is proper. How can I describe it?

[Helen]

I'm looking forward to it.

[Katie]

But, like, Tanya is a punk at heart, and you don't hear that through Tanya's voice. And you have to tell us about the time that you were on the boat. Why were you on the boat where you decided it'd be a good idea to jump in the river from the boat? Where were you in the world?

[Helen]

I was in India, in Kerala and doing this trip with Graham, and this boat shot off down the river and I thought I would just dive in. I'm not really very good at swimming, so that, first of all, great idea. And I'd also got flu, but I'd forgotten about that. And this flu involved having uncontrollable coughing fits. So when I came up from the depth of this river, suddenly the boat was really small and it had shot off. They had said, jump in, but I didn't realize they'd keep running the engine. And I was like, oh, God, I can't swim. I'm going to have to paddle to try and get back up to the boat. Then I got caught with a fit of coughing and nearly drowned. And then a guy. Oh, yes, that was a bit where I needed to shout help. Because I actually genuinely thought I was going to drown, but I couldn't say the word help. So I started waving my arm in the air at a Swedish guy near me in the river shouting, excuse me.

[Tanya]

Excuse me, I'm going to die.

[Katie]

Sorry to fiddle.

[Helen]

I just couldn't shout help. It was really weird.

[Tanya]

Was it too embarrassing to shout help?

[Helen]

I think it was. I just couldn't get it out of my mouth. Anyway, he shot over, grabbed me around the neck in a rescue position, but was throttling me. So I started trying to hit him to get out of the hold because I couldn't breathe and was still coughing. Then we got to the boat with this great sort of struggle swim. And I climbed onto the boat through the engine room, and my bikini top was pulled down on the crawl up into the boat. So I walked into the engine room, bedraggled, terrified and exhausted with my boobs out in front of, like, five guys in the engine room of the boat. It was just awful.

[Katie]

It's so brilliant. It's stories like this that we were trying to. It's really useful when you're writing a story to try and Base it on people that you know or famous people, or just to give somebody a character. It's really handy. And we wrote our first draft, didn't we? And we gave it to Walker, and Walker were like, can we have a bit more definition of what the actual characters. What the character traits of these characters are? And so we started thinking about that, didn't we?

[Tanya]

Had a good session on the train.

[Katie]

We really did. And we were like, well, Kitty. What? Oh, do you know what? She's got to be Tanya's reckless side. Like, just such an enthusiasm for life that she gets herself into all sorts of trouble without being into.

[Tanya]

She's like, yeah, let's do it. Wait a minute.

[Katie]

I've died to.

[Helen]

I'm not even seen any.

[Katie]

I keep meaning he'll send you. It's so funny. Anyway, so we've had a really nice time doing that. And it. And it feels like it does. Everything we talk about in Freak Flag, it's kind of personal to us. Even though it's a dog and a duck and a cat, it feels like our lives. They've got a little stove. Salty Dog is an artist, isn't he? We kind of base him on Johnny Hannah a little bit, don't we?

[Tanya]

He's got major Johnny Hannah vibes, which has been tricky because Johnny Hannah's very calm, collected. It wouldn't be, like, bossy, I don't think, ever.

[Katie]

Yeah.

[Tanya]

So they were a bit like, we need to get Salty's personality well, but that's just kind of. Is his personality that he's quite, like, cool with everything.

[Katie]

We injected a lot more art and sculpture and still lives and stuff into his character, and that's made him really interesting now, because you don't. I can't. Other than Pingu, which has the dad in. Pingu is a sculptor who smokes a pipe and knits. He is just such a great character. I think Salty's got a bit of his vibe, hasn't he?

[Tanya]

Yeah. And I didn't want Salty to be like, you know, like traditional main character. They're like, I'll save the day. You know, like the paw patrol puppy. That's the main one. Does my head in.

[Katie]

Yeah.

[Tanya]

I was like, not that.

[Katie]

Also, we didn't want Kitty because she's a girl cat. We didn't want her to be at all nurturing or providing the food. Salty Dog is actually the cook in the Upside down hut, isn't he?

[Tanya]

Yeah, he's a carer.

[Katie]

Yeah. So, yeah, that's been really good fun. I feel like I'm in a really nice position now because those things that are really valuable, like having yourself in your work and being able to experiment with your materials and how you make the work, they've really come together. And I don't feel so burnt out anymore. I think I had so much adrenaline in my system, I was about to explode. So it's really lovely. I've managed to organize it that I'm not on a treadmill anymore. And that's so lovely.

[Helen]

And the book's been to Frankfurt, hasn't it? Yeah.

[Katie]

I haven't heard back about how that's gone yet. The publishers get back and they're so exhausted and they have meetings and they take a while to come back to you with any feedback. So I have no idea how salty went down at Frankfurt yet.

[Helen]

But you've got to bring some pictures around. I want to read the story. So Katie's helping write or you're writing. Are you writing it together?

[Katie]

We're writing together, which is a really interesting process because we didn't really know how that would work. But Katie, you sit with your laptop and I sit with my iPad and we open one Google Doc and we literally type at the same time. I can see the ghost of Katie. Type, type, typing at the same time. I am. And we just.

[Tanya]

Together.

[Katie]

We're in the room together and we brainstorm and we talk about bits and pieces that have happened. Like, I'm thinking about when we decided to write the story. We had one last story to write and we were brainstorming what should we do it about? And we just start talking about things that happened. And I remembered that our really good neighbours who live over the road when our kids were little, because Berwick is a tiny town, we. You have to make your own entertainment in Berwick, basically, don't you? So we decided to have a raffle night. So Al bought all of these rubbish raffle prizes, which was so funny, you know, like a Bic Biro or a pair of nylon tights, or he bought all these prizes and we had this raffle and the pressure was high to win the prize you wanted to win. And it was such a fun night and it was so low key and the kids were really little and so little kids love anything. Like you just buy a couple of cheap prizes and now it's like a whole evening of entertainment. We remembered that and so we said, right, let's have a raffle.

[Tanya]

It's sort of organic because. Start writing.

[Katie]

Yeah.

[Tanya]

Make each other laugh, eat biscuits and drink tea and then read it again. And tweak bits and read it again and tweak bits. But the bit that I thought was most exciting was we finished inverted commas, finished the first four stories, sent them to Walker and then they. The editing was amazing because this. We obviously liked the stories when we said them and thought they were fine, but then sprinkled some magic and, like, tightened them up and tweaked them.

[Katie]

They barely do anything, but they just do enough that I suppose because they're on the outside and they're so clever. They're on the outside, they haven't been involved in the writing. They see more clearly which bits and maybe can just lose that little bit to get to the action more. They're so clear about the vision. That was magic, wasn't it, when they sent back their little edits and they were tiny edits, but they made all the difference.

[Tanya]

I was really scared to look. They're like, oh, what if they've just, like, marked things in red, like, see me. But it wasn't that kind of feedback. It was just like, see me here. Basically, I've made your story even better. Here you go.

[Katie]

What?

[Tanya]

This is so good.

[Katie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Helen]

See, you two basically created, like, the Saturday Night Live writers room.

[Katie]

Do you know? Yeah. I once overheard. I once overheard, heard on YouTube, Vic and Bob talking about how they write together. And I feel like we write in very much the same way. They put a YouTube video on, make each other laugh and just start. They watch a load of rubbish together and talk about memories and then they just start writing. I think that's so what's happened with us, hasn't it?

[Tanya]

Yeah. I think I didn't go back here. I read that somewhere or heard that somewhere because I was thinking it when we're writing this as, like, how I imagine they might do it.

[Katie]

Yeah. And it's easy. And now I don't really want to write alone again because this is so much easier. Because if we've both laughed at it, that's like the seal of approval, isn't it?

[Tanya]

Must be at least a tiny bit funny.

[Katie]

Yeah, yeah. Whereas when I write myself, sometimes I write and I get very excited and I'm type, type, type, type. I am a genius. This is the funniest thing I have ever read. Leave it a couple of days, come back in a different mood and go, is it good? I don't know if it is now. So it's really good writing with somebody else just for that extra, like, eyes and taking some of the pressure off yourself. It's really good. Yeah, it takes you all the work, isn't it?

[Tanya]

Anytime.

[Helen]

And it's good because you're at that stage of motherhood where you know exactly what your daughter likes and what she'll laugh at. So you're really close to the source and you've always had the memory of it. As a children's illustrator and author, you're kind of close to the source, but the two of you together with the.

[Katie]

Thought of it is really good to have Katie, who's just dropped her toddler off at nursery, come in with those stories and you're like, oh, yeah, I remember that. Oh, yeah. And then we're back and forth with this thing happened and they said this, and then that's it, we're off, aren't we?

[Tanya]

I love it.

[Katie]

Yeah.

[Tanya]

Mining of a content.

[Helen]

So what are you doing, Katie?

[Tanya]

What am I doing? So this week I'm traveling to Amsterdam for an event, which is exciting, but I'm not going to be traveling anymore. So I've made a big decision because I feel like I spent this whole year, this whole two years, really scaling my live illustration business. Like, I'm going to team. I had salaried employees, blah, blah, blah. And then it got to the summer. Well, actually, it was like this time last year, I was like, this is terrible. I don't like this. But I hired more people and thought that would fix it, and then got through the summer and got busier and busier, which is great. I feel so silly for not enjoying it because on paper, like, wow, that looks so good. Sounds amazing. But I was at a job in Sheffield and there was a ball of stress balls on the table with the logo. This was like my turning point. There was the logo of the company branded on these stress balls. And something in my brain just went, like, irreversible, whatever it was that went ting. And I was like, did you put.

[Katie]

Your head in the stress balls?

[Tanya]

I was just like, I can't do this anymore. Why have they put the logo on the stress balls?

[Katie]

What is going on?

[Tanya]

You know when you just suddenly become very conscious and they zoom out of your life and you're like, ah, no, I don't want to be doing this.

[Helen]

There's kind of so much bs, isn't it? And so unnecessary plastic.

[Tanya]

And this company was like, trying to figure out ways to make people need the thing more so they would buy more of it and use more of it. And I was just like, I don't want to do this anymore. So I really, at that point was like, okay, I Need to change something or I'm gonna go mad or like burn out or like, I don't know, go crazy or something. So at that point I decided to reduce my team write down and go back to online events because I feel like the traveling is stupid. The in person events, some of them are lovely, of course. Don't get me wrong, the one that I'm doing in Amsterdam is about sustainability, ironically. So this borderline thing, I was like, I just, I'm not interested in being really, really busy anymore, especially if it's for stuff that makes me. My eye twitch. So. So I suppose what I'm really working on is quietening down, which has worked very well so far. And then it's been a little bit scary actually, because I've been so used to being so busy. You know, like, get to the studio at half past nine, answer as many emails as I can, get on calls, have like back to back client calls for a few hours, grab lunch at my desk, do some more client calls, catch up with edits from another event, blah, blah. And then as soon as I like stopped the floor, reduced the team, it was just quiet. And I was like, oh, no.

[Katie]

I feel like I've been through the same thing with that now. Now I can start the day without a huge list of things I've got to get through, which is so lovely. But I feel I've been through a phase of feeling guilty about it. I should, I should be working, really. Why am I not working myself to exhaustion and then having to talk myself back down?

[Helen]

Have Sorry.

[Katie]

Pie has set my phone to the Minions ringtone. So if you heard that, it's not my fault. I'll find my phone. Turn it off. Yeah. Those conversations in my head because of years and years of working on a treadmill and just feeling like that was normal. I really wanted to get off it, but there's another part of me that goes, you gotta carry on, you gotta carry on. I have to have a word with myself. A word with myself. Say, come on, Helen, you don't have to work like that. You could walk like, work like a normal person.

[Helen]

I remember seeing in a bookshop a couple of days ago, I saw that, you know that group do the do projects, the do festivals. Yeah, really good. And there's one book called you are not a To do List. And all weekend that just keeps rolling around in my mind as I go to my to do list and think, right, I can cross spear them often. You know, it's, I think illustrators sort of work seven days A week as well. I've always had a completely blurred boundary between the week and the weekend. So there's always a to do list. And I just keep seeing this picture of that book cover in my head and thinking, okay, so what does that look like if you're not a to do list? And freelancers are so used to constantly being in a state of slight panic and pressure to keep working. You just think, if it slows down, oh, it's broken. I've broken everything. Yeah, but it's not. It's like a normal life. I used to always wonder what it would be like to have a salaried job, go on a Monday and come home on a, you know, whatever, a nine to five. Okay. You don't have agency over what you can do and don't want to do. And, you know, you have much less control over your life. But I always wondered what the imbalance, what would be the comparison between the two, which would be easier.

[Katie]

I wonder if we should do a whole podcast on burnout and about the risk of burnout because I speak to so many illustrators who struggle with this.

[Helen]

Yeah, I think we should.

[Katie]

Should we do a whole podcast about that?

[Helen]

Definitely get back to Katie. What she does, I can't figure out this part of.

[Tanya]

So I suppose, like, what I'm working on is getting ready to go to Amsterdam on a Wednesday, the Wednesday to Friday and then after that. So I've got like some prep, got to prep the canvas, check that the client is happy with the marketing team's happy with how I've designed the border of what I'm going to draw and stuff and then pack my bag and things. But yeah, it's, it's so nice. I've got an animation, I've got two animations to work on when I get home. So I've been enjoying not having them to work on yet. It's once there and then that's a big job and it takes ages and it takes over your life a little bit and. But the nice thing is I know I've just got them to do it. I haven't got loads of other things at the same time because you've slowed it up.

[Helen]

So your whole life is about getting used to the new slowed up, thinned out version.

[Tanya]

I have a thing on my website that's like now Booking for Blood. I changed it to now booking for January in October and it felt so good. And then people get in touch. I'm like, no, I'm not booking till January, Go away. But the nice thing about having a smaller team is I don't feel like I have to say yes to every single job just to pay people's wages. I'm just like, if I don't work, I don't work. And that's fine because I don't mind. But now I don't feel it was very stressful having to pay people's wages.

[Helen]

I think that.

[Tanya]

And I always have just one wage to pay, which is fine.

[Helen]

It's one of the most difficult things about management, isn't it? Feeling suddenly responsible for other people's lives financially? Yeah.

[Tanya]

And also other people's energy levels are different. Like, I need loads of naps and things. I'm very sleepy. So when I'm like, I just don't want to work anymore, other people are like, no, but you can't do that because we need to do some work.

[Katie]

Like, come on, keep going.

[Tanya]

So I found that really tricky as well. But, yeah, I'm never getting it. I think a burnout podcast would be really good.

[Katie]

Yeah, we'll do that.

[Helen]

Okay. That's what we're up to.

[Katie]

Okay, lovely.

[Tanya]

Bye.