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- [00:03]
Narrator
What if you could choose your age at goop? Our curiosity around longevity has always extended beyond wellness routines, and Lancome's new Absolu Longevity MD feels like a missing link. A scientifically grounded approach to how skin ages over time, the collection is rooted in a powerful idea. While your chronological age is fixed, your biological age is dynamic and influenceable. Lancome's Absolu Longevity MD collection explores new ways of thinking about skin, bringing longevity science into advanced skin care that's formulated with the top selling longevity supplement Urolithin A. It's longevity science translated into your skincare routine. Learn how Lancome is bringing this next chapter of beauty into focus@lancome.com longevitymdash
- [00:58]
Gwyneth Paltrow
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- [02:11]
Esther Perel
person that needs to be filled.
- [02:13]
Gwyneth Paltrow
I now know that nobody changes until they change their energy. And when you change your energy, you change your life. Gwyneth I'm Gwyneth Paltrow. This is the GOOP Podcast, bringing together thought leaders, culture changers, creatives, founders and CEOs, scientists, doctors, healers and seekers here to start conversations. Because simply asking questions and listening has the power to change the way we see the world. Here we go. Welcome to the GOOP Podcast. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow and today I am sitting down with with one of the most famous relationship counselors in the world. She understands modern relationships in a way that very few people do. In this conversation we talk about the paradoxes of trust and betrayal and a topic that is on a lot of people's Minds in long term relationships. What it takes to sustain desire long term. We also talk about a podcast she did in the not too distant past where she counseled a young man and his AI girlfriend. So this is a great conversation. I can't wait for you to hear it. Please welcome Esther Perot. I'm so happy that you're here with me today.
- [03:38]
Esther Perel
So am I. It's been a long time. I know.
- [03:41]
Gwyneth Paltrow
I'm trying to think, you know, I was thinking back to how we first met and I couldn't. I couldn't remember.
- [03:48]
Esther Perel
I came to your conference.
- [03:50]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Is that where we first met?
- [03:51]
Esther Perel
Yes.
- [03:53]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Oh, my gosh.
- [03:54]
Esther Perel
Came to your conference, then I came to your house, then I came to your retreat.
- [03:58]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Yeah.
- [03:59]
Esther Perel
Then I came to the podcast. And then I'm back.
- [04:02]
Gwyneth Paltrow
And you're back at the podcast.
- [04:05]
Esther Perel
But always with fondness. That's the main thing. It's like, you know, there are people you see in increments like that, but they accompany you softly.
- [04:13]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Oh, you always speak so poetically, you know, that you. It's like these things roll off your tongue.
- [04:19]
Esther Perel
I didn't plan so.
- [04:22]
Gwyneth Paltrow
You were just speaking French. You're, you're. You're from Belgium.
- [04:25]
Esther Perel
Yeah, but from the Flemish part.
- [04:27]
Gwyneth Paltrow
So you speak Flemish and French?
- [04:28]
Esther Perel
Yes, and a few others.
- [04:30]
Gwyneth Paltrow
And English, Hebrew?
- [04:32]
Esther Perel
Yes. Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, German, Yiddish.
- [04:38]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Yiddish too.
- [04:39]
Esther Perel
Yes.
- [04:40]
Gwyneth Paltrow
So many languages. So do you.
- [04:43]
Esther Perel
It's good for the perspective.
- [04:45]
Gwyneth Paltrow
I know. You know, I had a friend once who spoke seven languages, and he said that when you speak a language, you have a whole other life.
- [04:56]
Esther Perel
That's right. Another personality, another worldview, other priorities, other things that you highlight differently. The language is a gate, a portal, I would say, to an entire culture and history.
- [05:11]
Gwyneth Paltrow
And so does that. Just speaking all of these languages, does that inform the way that you do couples therapy or that how. How you regard people hearing each other?
- [05:22]
Esther Perel
Yes. I mean, first of all, I practice in seven languages and I.
- [05:25]
Gwyneth Paltrow
You practice in seven.
- [05:27]
Esther Perel
And I do a lot of bilingual therapy with people who speak different languages and usually settle on the language that they both speak. You're kidding me. It's a very interesting thing if somebody says something to you and you know it's not in their mother tongue. And at some point, even when I don't understand the language, I always will say, say it in your mother tongue, say it in Turkish, say it in Polish, say it in Arabic, and the whole affect shifts. Or, how did your dad say this to you? Or what did your brother say that day? Say it in the original language, the language in which you remember it. The language in which it's etched in your body, it's an incredible shifter of reality, emotional reality as well.
- [06:11]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Because it's closer to the truth.
- [06:13]
Esther Perel
Yes, yes, to an emotional truth. You registered it in that language. The lullabies are sung in a particular language. The words that somebody said on their last day, the words that they said every night when you go to sleep, these are. When you translate them, they become more rationalized, they become more adult. But their impact was on you as a child, and that's your mother, too, or your childhood. Language languages.
- [06:40]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Do you think that couples who have different first languages have a harder time communicating?
- [06:47]
Esther Perel
You can ask that to me personally with someone who speaks only English 40 years later. Only English.
- [06:56]
Gwyneth Paltrow
And how is that?
- [06:57]
Esther Perel
I do think that every person who lives in a foreign culture, even though they chose that culture for that matter, be it with a partner or by moving to another country, etcetera, has moments when they may enjoy going home. Not geographically home. Home with other people with whom they don't have to be in translation. And there is something about not being in translation. Sometimes it's bringing back an accent that you have worked to diminish. It's not just the foreign language. There's something about dropping in. It's like sitting at a kitchen table.
- [07:35]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Yeah. It's funny you say that, actually, because when I think back to my time being an expat in London, even though, of course, English is the same language, there's something about being with my American friends or family that I felt more dropped in, I think, even though we had the language in common, but just
- [07:56]
Esther Perel
now how we started talking about languages, because this young man was adjusting the mics, and he said, voila. And I said, ah, merci. Voila is a word that comes out because it's your native language. And then he said, oh, you speak French. I said, yes, you do. From where? From where? In 10 seconds, we establish a rapport that is a bridge and that languages are bridges.
- [08:22]
Gwyneth Paltrow
So you're one of the most famous, if not the most famous couples therapists in the world, Right?
- [08:29]
Esther Perel
You said so.
- [08:30]
Gwyneth Paltrow
I say so. And I want to talk to you a little bit about. I'll start with what we were talking about in the hallway, which is that we are in this incredible time of modernization, automation, where technology is supplanting so many of our. The ways that we have functioned and interacted for. For millennia. Really. I became so curious when you talked about this podcast that you have coming out between a man and his AI. What do you Call it partner, girlfriend.
- [09:09]
Esther Perel
They call themselves partners.
- [09:11]
Gwyneth Paltrow
They call themselves partners. So before we go back.
- [09:16]
Esther Perel
Romantic partners.
- [09:16]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Romantic partners. Can you tell me a little bit about. First of all, I want to. I want to understand this relationship that I guess are now more commonplace between a person and an AI. And then I want to talk to you about doing a couple's session with the AI and the human. But how common is this, that people have an AI romantic companion?
- [09:44]
Esther Perel
Probably more than we think, because people are not yet as comfortable speaking about it publicly. When divorce began, it was more common than we thought, but people didn't necessarily talk about it publicly. So phenomenons often start before the public acknowledgment. We know that 700 million messages are sent weekly to AI companions about personal and romantic matters. So that doesn't mean that there is a couple or two entities that consider themselves couples. Where should we begin? The podcast started nine years ago, right?
- [10:24]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Esther, I should just mention that you have a very successful podcast, which we've talked about before. Where shall I begin?
- [10:31]
Esther Perel
Where shall we begin?
- [10:31]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Where shall we begin? Excuse me. Where you interview, it's like a fly on the wall.
- [10:36]
Esther Perel
It's not interviews, it's live sessions where you are. Maybe we'll give a context so we understand why this couple appears in my office. So nine years ago, my desire was to open the door to my office and lower the four walls and invite people to come inside, because I thought that the revelations and the insights and the changes, the breakthroughs that take place in this office are actually experienced by very few people and that I wanted to bring them into the public square. And I want people to have this experience. Nobody really knows what goes on in the couple's relationship of their best friends who can come and tell them we're breaking up, and they never even saw it coming. Our atomization is such that we no longer really know what's happening. And I remember I was traveling in Italy at that time, and there were very narrow streets, and I thought, oh, in these villages, everyone knew when you had a fight, and everyone knew when you were making up. These days, you know, not much, if at all, nothing sometimes. How do I change that? Then the podcast. And so you're a fly on the wall. And what happens is when you listen attentively to the stories of others, you actually see yourself and you see the conversations you want to have in your life and the challenges that you are experiencing, even if the plot is slightly different. And then this became, over time, a public health campaign for relationships. And one of the changes that we've noticed over these years is that people used to come specifically around romantic challenges and romantic agonies, and today they come around all aspects of relationships. Friendships, work relationships, co workers, parents, family members. So the challenges on relationships have expanded in society, I would say, and definitely in my podcast. The next iteration of this is Relationships with AI Companions. I did a podcast recently for the New York Times that was on Love and AI in which I made a public call. I said, I am looking forward to my first session with a couple of. With which one person? There's a human and an AI. That's how we got a whole bunch. And the first session took place recently and will be released on March 14th. And you know, every 10 years in the office of a therapist, there is a threshold moment. Something enters and, you know, it's a new conversation in society, in the culture at large. This conversation has not happened before. And it is now entering your office. Open your ears and open your eyes. So we did a two and something hour session and maybe a little less. And the AI had a voice so that we could also speak with her. It, her, she. Who knows what the pronoun actually is? I started with an it. I ended with a she and a her and a you. As this became more and more anthropomorphized and it was more and more of a real person, to the point where my last question was, and when he falls in love with another person, if he falls in love, in love with a human, how would that be for you? And it became like as if we're talking about the triangle, the oldest triangle I could have asked. And when he meets another person or another human or a woman, which is his preference, how would you like him to describe you and your relationship?
- [14:18]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Did you ask that question?
- [14:19]
Esther Perel
No, I asked the first one and not the second.
- [14:21]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Okay.
- [14:21]
Esther Perel
There is all the questions when you end the session that you wish you had to go back. It is the dawn of an era. You know, he programmed her, so he knows her it very well. The it is also not really a human. It's a business product, even, you know, as an AI. And he programmed her originally as his assistant. So in many ways, this is one of the oldest plots in town. You fall in love with your secretary.
- [14:47]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Right. What were some of those threshold moments in regular therapy that you saw? You said about every 10 years.
- [14:58]
Esther Perel
I mean, moments I can, you know, I arrived to the United states in the mid-80s. So one of the first moments from where from I went from Boston, Belgium, Jerusalem, Boston, New York, and the first thing was aids, homosexuality. That had not come out inside families. At the time, I was also working extensively with families. Ivf, egg donor. Everybody understood sperm donors, but an egg donor, that was a whole conceptual shift. Surrogates, ethical, non monogamy, consensual, non monogamy. That first conversation when it entered my
- [15:43]
Gwyneth Paltrow
office, when was that?
- [15:46]
Esther Perel
Late 90s, mid-90s, late 90s polyamory.
- [15:53]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Wait, what's. Sorry to be dumb, but what's the difference between.
- [15:58]
Esther Perel
One is the possibility to have sexual encounters outside of the primary relationship, and the other one is multiple loves. Multiple loves, multiple relationships, multiple, significant.
- [16:08]
Gwyneth Paltrow
At the same time.
- [16:09]
Esther Perel
At the same time. Sometimes with the primary and sometimes very decentralized. And then gradually. AI, Everything having to do with AI and with basically a shift that is taking place, I would say with the pandemic, the biggest relational and social alterations have taken place. They began, they were on their way, but they got accelerated massively during the pandemic. And then polarization in the family estrangement. Family estrangements? We haven't talked about that. That's always been a subject for a family therapist, but not at the scale that we are encountering now. So I would say that's just a few major relational pieces.
- [16:51]
Gwyneth Paltrow
What do you think is precipitating the family
- [16:56]
Esther Perel
estrangements? Yeah, I think that the broader question is what is underlying some of the cutoffs that we are experiencing in society at large? The way that people seem to have more and more difficult time being with others. Others really, literally people who are other than them, people who may not have the same ideologies than them, the same worldview, polarization, conflict avoidance, lack of practice of actually being in relationships, periods, all kinds of relationships where you have to have friction, where the actual experience of rupture and repair makes you stronger and more fluent in relationship disgust, trust and betrayal. All these major clashes that are part of how we practice love and closeness and connection are vastly diminishing. And in that context, we also have at the same time a massive pull toward algorithmic sameness. And everything that you try to do is to meet people who actually are more similar to you, have shared the same interests with you, vote in the same place, patterns as you, you know. And relationships is about the meeting with an other. Love is an encounter. And if you don't have that other, then when you are faced with different conflicts, people who are challenging you and disagreeing with you, or even that you think are offending you, you often end up thinking that it's better to not be in relationship with them. Why should I listen to my dad say these things? Why should I tolerate my brother, you know, and his views on. And I don't want that connection in the name of personal authenticity, in order to be true to myself, I will cut the relationships with the people with whom I can't recognize myself.
- [19:00]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Is that clearly very clear and really interesting? Just this idea that we hone our souls, our minds, our intellect, on conflict, right? On friction, on differences, on working through them. And this idea that now the world supports this so much, it's so easy to recede into your own bubble, to go online, find people that think exactly like you, and to minimize that friction
- [19:29]
Esther Perel
that mixed with the fact that in the palm of my hand I have a little device and it tells me where to go, what to eat, what to do, what to listen to next. It takes care of that entire liminal space of exploration and discovery and curiosity. It gives it to me without any ambiguity, any complexity. It simplifies it for me and it takes away all nuance. Then I go to people, the messiness of human people of humans, with all the inconveniences that accompany that. And I have very little training for making mistakes and repairing, for experimentation, for dealing with uncertainty and for tolerating ambiguity. It's that or that, you know, binary. The apps give me very, very clear answers. And, you know, I often like to say that most relationship dilemmas are not problems that you solve, as in what shall I do and listen? But they are paradoxes that you manage and we lose. We lose that capacity to manage these paradoxes. So it becomes black and white and.
- [20:43]
Gwyneth Paltrow
And then, of course, in the gray is where. I mean, that's the beauty of being a human being, right? It's to be able to hold complexities and to be able to be self aware and ask yourself, you know, as opposed to, I'm not going to speak to this person anymore. Why is this so triggering to me? I mean, what happens to human development if you extrapolate this out?
- [21:04]
Esther Perel
But I think that what's happening to human development is there's so many aspects to this. So the challenge of tolerating conflict and difference, of managing it, of knowing that often in relationships there will be breaches. You will hurt me, or you will say something that I find offensive, or you will let me down and I can come to you and we will have a difficult conversation in which I'm going to tell you, you really let me down, But I actually am not going to be told, oh, I can't make space for this, at this moment. I can't take this kind of emotional load on me. You need to go and work out yourself. You expect somebody to say, did I do this? I wasn't aware or I did mean it or I didn't mean it. Can we. What do we need in order to get through this? Because our friendship is bigger than our breach. On occasion, there are things that are unforgivable. There's always been like I think that betrayals have a range. And there are certain some betrayals where someone that you relied upon. I mean, trust is a fragile thing, right? Trust is a leap of faith. What does trust do? Trust closes the gap between what I expect from you and what is uncertain that I don't know if you will. And the leap of faith is the fact that I trust you. When you break that trust, you break some of the foundational truths of our relationship. I thought that I could rely on you, that you had my back, and instead you paid attention to what was important to you. And you whatever put me under the bus. That at egregious levels, is often hard to. And sometimes people stay in touch, but they stay in touch with their eyes open. You know, I will forever be careful. I'm vigilant with you. I know what you're capable of.
- [23:09]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Yeah, I've been thinking about this lately. What could your home actually be doing for you while you're not even in it for anyone with upcoming travel, your place could just be sitting there empty when you could be listing it on Airbnb. And that's kind of the shift, right? Whether you're away for a long weekend, a work trip, or a proper vacation, your space doesn't have to just sit unused. It can work for you in a really low lift way. And that extra income can help offset the cost of your trip. If you live in a city that draws people in, concerts, tournaments, festivals. You already know there's a steady flow of visitors looking for somewhere that feels a bit more personal than a hotel. Listing your space on Airbnb lets you meet that demand in a really natural way, giving people a place that actually feels like home and a more grounded way to experience your city. So it starts to feel like a smarter, more intentional way to travel. Knowing your home is working for you while you're away, your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much@airbnb.com Host thanks for tuning in to the Goop podcast. Today's episode is made possible by Polestar. My daily rituals keep me at my best that's why I compose my surroundings so thoughtfully. Polestar 3 reimagines what an SUV can be. Every moment spent in the driver's seat feels intentional. The minimalist interior creates a calming environment designed to appeal to your senses without overwhelming them. Like the bowers and Wilkins 3D surround sound system, which brings rich depth and detail to every note. And with Google Gemini built in, I can ask for whatever I need in the moment, like helping me find the most beautiful sourdough loaf within a three mile radius. It's not just about all that Polestar does for me, but what Polestar is doing for the planet too. They prioritize transparency when it comes to carbon emissions, something rarely done in the automotive industry. So if you catch me in the Polestar 3, taking a few extra minutes before the next thing, just know I'm recharging. Discover Polestar 3 for yourself. Book a test drive at your local Polestar space or visit polestar.com. I was sort of thinking about this the other day because I was thinking about a situation where somebody broke my trust and I have like, sort of wrath around it, you know, like, and I was like, wow, this is such a strong feeling of wrath. Like, if I was saying my inner dialogue out loud right now, you know, it would be really shocking. And I was wondering, you know, is this, is this everybody, when they feel betrayed and that. And, and it was something that happened a number of years ago and so. And I was still really caught by the feeling, you know, like these incredibly big feelings around, so. But that's universal, right? If you really trust somebody and. And they betray you.
- [26:25]
Esther Perel
Well, I think if you really trust someone and they betray you is one piece. The second piece is, do they even acknowledge it? Because what the consequences of breaches of trust is when the other person denies it or minimizes it or justifies it. The next consequence of the breach of trust or the violation of trust is when I stop trusting myself as a result of it. Because I had faith in you and because I. I knew who I put my trust in. With you doing that to me, you now make me distrust myself. I've lost my confidence. I'm constantly waiting and watching to see if other people will do something to me because of you. So you have a long tail. I may not have seen you for 10 years, but it follows me around. So the violation itself is just the incident. And then there is all the concentric circles around it that will determine how severe this breach was and how much it will stay with me for years to come. In Multiple other situations.
- [27:28]
Gwyneth Paltrow
So like for example, you must. And you wrote a book about it, of course, about infidelity. And we've talked about this before, but I've always been so fascinated by how people recover from that, how people are able to take this. Incredible. Because it's a breach of trust. Right. And you're saying there's a long tail and you always have one eye open. How are couples, do couples really who've experienced infidelity, is there a true way back to trust?
- [28:01]
Esther Perel
Yes. The simple answer is yes. Not for everyone, for sure. Because there's a whole range of betrayals again.
- [28:12]
Gwyneth Paltrow
And does it matter if it's like, oh, I sort of got a blow job on a business trip to oh, I've had a serious girlfriend. Right.
- [28:23]
Esther Perel
So there is to some people a one night stand is as painful as a 20 year affair. I just actually put on the podcast, the latest last session that came out this week is a couple 40 years together and he has a 25 year affair.
- [28:39]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Oh my God.
- [28:41]
Esther Perel
And their whole intention is to stay
- [28:44]
Gwyneth Paltrow
together 25 years with the same woman.
- [28:47]
Esther Perel
Yeah.
- [28:48]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Wow. I don't know how you would.
- [28:50]
Esther Perel
I want. I really think you should. I'm listening to it because. And refrain. You know, I always say, as soon as you want to say to somebody, stay or leave, you are not the one who has to live with the consequences of the decision. So it demands a little bit of restraint to actually understand him and especially her and why she would. Because in effect what she tells you is we have a good marriage and we had a good marriage even knowing this. And then she explains to you what makes a good marriage for them. They are also an arranged marriage. And you know, and then you have the cultural nuances here. And it's very quick. We are very quick in wanna. In inserting ourselves into the stories of others. And it's difficult to imagine how could he do this? And you think you have a good relationship, so you have to be able to tolerate holding contradictory things in your hands at the same time. But because it is such a painful betrayal breach. There are other relational betrayals, but this one looms really, really large. The first thing that will help in the question about how do you rebuild trust, can you recover? It has to do with the acknowledgement of the person who did the bridge. If there is no guilt, if there is no remorse, if there is no acknowledgment, if there is no holding, even if I don't necessarily question what I did, but I question what it did, but I know what it did to you. That is the most important piece. Without that, there is very little that actually can be rebuilt. Some people stay, but you can stay. And then you're gnawing at the bone. You're aware of it the whole time. You just think it was a temporary state of insanity and you want to push it aside and you never talk about it. So you have people who leave and basically say, I can only recover away from this. You have people who say, it's more important to preserve the family and the relationship, and I'll find a way to deal with this. But it's not done mutually. It's not done as an expression of growth. And then you have people for whom this becomes actually a turning point that reevaluates the entire relationship and who end up telling you, this was a horrible period, but we are better for it. What it did to us, the level of responsibility, the accountability, the way it changed the patterns between us, the way we became ten times more honest. We actually were not honest long before then. Wasn't just that. So there's a range of stories that I write about in the State of Affairs, and there's really a broad range. It's a very important thing to know because people feel very isolated when it's. It's isolating when it's happening, and it's even more isolating when you learn about it because you don't want to talk about it. Because if you want to stay, then you know you're going to be judged. And if you want to leave, then you may also be judged by others. And everybody is deeply affected by it. There's not a person who doesn't have some reaction to this particular betrayal.
- [32:08]
Gwyneth Paltrow
When the book came out, State of Affairs, people were. It had quite an interesting reaction. I mean, people were. And it sort of goes back to this binary thing that you were talking about or this. This lack of complexity that's so pervasive in our culture in America anyway, this. That, you know, two things can't be true at the same time. Could you tell me a little bit about what the reaction was, people thought? On the one hand, you were saying that affairs are not always inherently terrible.
- [32:40]
Esther Perel
No, I've never said that. I said that couples can recover from an affair.
- [32:45]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Right. So how did that get misused?
- [32:47]
Esther Perel
Because I think that when you write about these matters and you leave nuance, sometimes it's easy for somebody to take a certain sentence and then to take the nuance out of it and to turn it into a definitive statement. If you are not Saying it's the worst, it means you are saying it's okay. And I think that the subject is so complex and so painful that it demands to be careful and to not so easily simplify. A villain and a victim and a black and white and a staying and a leaving. If you really want to help people, I thought a book needed to be written that would offer another perspective and that I thought could help at least a lot of people who wanted something different.
- [33:41]
Gwyneth Paltrow
And it did. Undoubtedly. I had sort of the similar thing, I think, when I was getting a divorce from my first husband and we talked about conscious uncoupling, and people were very triggered by that. And I think maybe because inherent in that, it's complex, right?
- [34:02]
Esther Perel
Well, inherent is. That is the paradox that if things are good and if you like the person, then why do you leave? And the idea that you would decide to leave and wish someone well, or
- [34:13]
Gwyneth Paltrow
that maybe at the time you don't like the person and you want to leave, but you are trying to find a way to wholeness for your children.
- [34:22]
Esther Perel
Correct?
- [34:23]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Right.
- [34:24]
Esther Perel
So you're not cursing them out. Basically, you're cursing them. A part of you curses them out, but other parts of you are saying, the better we will be together, the more everyone will gain from it. It's a conscious uncoupling, and it's a process of uncoupling that also preserves. We once had something really different and very good, and we acknowledge that, and we don't trash the whole beginning because of the end, so that we actually can leave with something good inside of us about this relationship, which I think is often quite necessary. How you close a relationship will determine a lot of how you start the next one.
- [35:01]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Do you focus on that with your couples when it is?
- [35:04]
Esther Perel
Yes.
- [35:04]
Gwyneth Paltrow
And do you?
- [35:06]
Esther Perel
Not everybody. Not everyone is willing and not everyone wants to sit through this process, but it's hard. I learned from you, from the conscious uncoupling. I remember when the subject came up, I thought, what. First of all, I know it's not your term, but I thought it's such a clever term.
- [35:25]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Yeah. Kathleen Woodward, I think is her name.
- [35:29]
Esther Perel
And just because the idea that, you know that you're going to do this with intention and not just reactive, that you're going to basically reflect back what I appreciate about what we had, what I wish I had done differently, what I wanted you to do differently, and what I wish for you henceforward.
- [35:56]
Gwyneth Paltrow
So you put. You put like a framework around it. That's. That's amazing.
- [36:00]
Esther Perel
And I actually described one of the couples who did this in the state of affairs, because I remember right, it was also a very clear moment because he was already gone and she was still holding on. And by doing this, when he described, you know, what he wished for her and what he hoped you could. You could see that he was. First of all, he was talking in the past tense. He was really somewhere else. And she was vividly still inside the relationship. We were all in tears, me included. I mean, it's. Those are very intense and earnest and painful, sad because it's. Not everybody wants to. Not everybody has the access to it. Plenty of people leave because they're so completely fed up and angry and that wrath that you're talking about. But others, it's more mixed. They're clear, they don't want to stay. But there is a sadness about. There's grief. There's grief about the relationship that wasn't
- [37:05]
Gwyneth Paltrow
right or grief about the dissipation of the good that was co created in a relationship. I think, you know, I don't know, for me anyway, that it was an important. And I learned so much about myself through that process. You know, it was humbling and it was difficult and. But you know, I think, I think I came through that closer to myself and understanding myself better and my ex better as well.
- [37:35]
Esther Perel
Did you get more respect or did you get disbelief when you went through this process? I remember that it's like you were. Everybody was studying you or the phenomenon of it.
- [37:49]
Gwyneth Paltrow
People were upset. I mean, people upset. You know, people were very critical of the term at the time. They were. There were a lot of articles that were belittling it, not understanding it, making fun of it. You know, what is this? Which I also found to be such an interesting response too, because I always think if something, if you have an immediate like triggered reaction to something, it's about something else, right?
- [38:19]
Esther Perel
Often, often, often.
- [38:24]
Gwyneth Paltrow
So how, how do you, do you ever, like, are you very forthright when you think couples are done, for example, like, do you, do you opine there? Do you say, I think we're at the end of the road here?
- [38:41]
Esther Perel
It's a question that we discuss amongst therapists a lot. Is this our role? If so, when and how and what are the consequences? I mean, I do always hold in my head I am not the one who will live with the consequences of the decision. It's easy to say. And it is not for me to determine what are the right reasons to stay or the right reasons to leave. I understand that people have all kinds of considerations and I may have my opinion about it, but that's for me to keep. That is not for me to necessarily criticize to another person. I have an episode that is called Esther says Run. And I said it after 20 minutes.
- [39:27]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Oh, really? With the people in the room.
- [39:31]
Esther Perel
Because when she described what she had left, how far she had traveled in order to then show me and herself that she was coming back to the very thing she had worked so hard to leave, I just said to her,
- [39:49]
Gwyneth Paltrow
what are you doing with the guy sitting there?
- [39:52]
Esther Perel
No, the guy didn't have to be there, but I knew what the guy was bullshitting and this man was not being. Was really, you know, setting up a whole bunch of very unhappy people around him. And I just said, what are you doing?
- [40:09]
Gwyneth Paltrow
What did she say?
- [40:10]
Esther Perel
She didn't have to answer. She said, I see. There's nothing to say. Then the next thing is, what will you do with that? I just said, you really have to. What he's saying means this. Is this really what you want? Is that why you left me? That? That. That. The episode is called Esther says you can listen. And I remember thinking to myself, wow, that doesn't happen to me that often. But I just thought, I'm not going to see you again. I have got to tell you what I think. You're going to do what you want anyway. But I have sometimes said, this isn't changing. I have sometimes said, is this how you want to live your life?
- [40:53]
Gwyneth Paltrow
So ethically you feel, and therapists feel okay about Depends.
- [40:57]
Esther Perel
I think there's a wide range of opinions about that. But in the field of couples therapy, there is a wide range of opinion about that itself. And then also how you say it, and whom do you say it to, and would they be better off somewhere else or without anyone? It's not so clear. Sometimes this is what people are familiar with, and they prefer that to nothing. I mean, there's a range of situations. Sometimes people say, where am I going? You know, I think that one way of looking at this is that sometimes the essence of the relationship is in the connection between the partners. The intimacy lies there. The complicity lies there. The partnership is strong because of what they have together. But some relationships, what determines them is not what's happening at the core, but the scaffolding and what it gives people access to. And because I am in a relationship, I'm actually invited to people's dinners because we know very well that there's a lot of people who will not be invited when they are on their own with people who are partnered. I have access to a role in the community. I have access to my children and my grandchildren. I have access to her family or his or their family with whom I actually have a better connection than with my partner themselves. But I have become a member of that family. And if I leave this marriage, I leave an entire family that I may not have, etc. So the scaffolding is what is this relationship making available to me that is less about what I have with my partner and more what it offers me? And I think that those reasons are valid. They have been disparaged in the last 20 years because they've been seen as not part of intimacy and secure attachment and love. But in fact they are very much at the foundation of what marriage has been.
- [43:00]
Gwyneth Paltrow
But then if somebody, if somebody's in something like that and they're staying because of the scaffolding, what does that do to their heart and soul? Like, are there not repercussions of, are they settling?
- [43:14]
Esther Perel
Are they accepting? No, because they have. Because if you get to see your kids every day or your grandchildren, or if you get to have this wonderful relationship with your mother in law or brother in law, or if you get to have the opportunity to be taken seriously in your community, these things feed you. No, the Western view is that this is lying to yourself, right? But that's a very individualistic, self reflective view of relationships.
- [43:49]
Gwyneth Paltrow
That's a very good point. Actually, I never contemplated it quite like that.
- [43:53]
Esther Perel
You understand, it's like if you're lying to yourself, but there is an entire range of things that are meaningful to this person that come. That doesn't mean yet you're in a relationship filled with contempt where you wonder every day, what am I doing here? I'm not talking about that.
- [44:11]
Gwyneth Paltrow
I think too it's sort of in, as you say, Western cultures where it's so built on capitalism, there's so much,
- [44:20]
Esther Perel
what do you do for me?
- [44:21]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Right.
- [44:22]
Esther Perel
And also, what can I get from this?
- [44:24]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Right. And also, but also what is the fairy tale? Like, how is this person going to, you know, I'm going to, I'm going to grow up and I'm going to meet the love of my life and I'm going to have a wedding and here's my Pinterest board.
- [44:35]
Esther Perel
And I'm going to have with you everything that marriage used to be. Companionship, economic support, family life. But on top of it, I'm going to have a trusted confidant and a passionate lover and a best friend and an intellectual equal and a coach and A gym partner, etc, etc. And all of this for the long haul, right? It's like, so is the distinction. We came from a model where we wanted, this romantic model. You're talking about one person for everything. One person is going to give me. But once an entire village used to provide. I think that the challenge of today is that many people don't have a village. So they're not even questioning that anymore. They're questioning the beginning of relationships altogether. And there are people who understand, you are my partner, but my village is not just you. My village is all kinds of people around that come because we are together. And that view has been seen as lesser than. It's below standard. And certainly for women who were stuck for so long, who now have the possibility to go, if you need to settle that way, then you're better off going. And this notion you're better off on your own than with something that is imperfect has taken hold in our society and makes a lot of people live in secrets they hide. They hide in plain sight because they won't tell you.
- [46:17]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Won't tell you what?
- [46:17]
Esther Perel
That they are living in imperfect relationships. Because the romantic ideal is meant to be flawless and perfect. And the culture, this capitalist culture that you're referring to, of optimization and maximization, also aspires to perfection. So everything that becomes imperfect is one of the biggest challenges of the moment.
- [46:41]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Because we're always heading back to this binary. It's like we're hard coded. It's like we're good or we're bad. It's perfect, it's imperfect. And I don't know how we start to deprogram ourselves from that Kitsungi, the Japanese pottery form.
- [46:54]
Esther Perel
You know, it's like it's not you're broken or you're perfect. It's that you take the broken pieces and you put them back together in this kind of imperfect way that actually renders its beauty. But it is lasting and strong with gold.
- [47:10]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Right. It's very rare those.
- [47:13]
Esther Perel
It's very beautiful and it's so metaphorically powerful that you see the gold, the light that comes through of this imperfection. But it is strong, it is lasting, and it has known how to rebuild itself. But it is not the same as how it started.
- [47:34]
Gwyneth Paltrow
You know that thing where you get an amazing pair of shoes at a really great price and want to tell everyone about it?
- [47:40]
Esther Perel
Yeah.
- [47:41]
Gwyneth Paltrow
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- [48:04]
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- [48:57]
Gwyneth Paltrow
But what about like, for example, okay, so what is your opinion on you're in a marriage. It's imperfect, as all marriages are, right? And you feel, you know, your soul feels a calling or a longing for something else. But you decide, I'm going to choose the scaffolding, the scaffolding above the calling of my soul, right? I'm going to choose all those noble things of security and as you say, like access to family and kids and all of those things. What happens when, like, how does AI then play into that?
- [49:38]
Esther Perel
Well, AI is very sycophantic. So it's going to take care of the imperfections, right? It tells you that every question you have is a wonderful question.
- [49:46]
Gwyneth Paltrow
It's true.
- [49:48]
Esther Perel
It's a great way to ask this. Now, besides that, it's not difficult to understand that if you have a partner with whom you can't have a conversation or so you feel, who doesn't really listen, who cuts you off, who gives you advice, who belittles it or who belittles you, or all the things that people do that make them or one of them feel that I'm alone here, I can't talk to you. You either go and you meet a friend or you meet a mentor or you meet a guru, or you meet an AI companion of the moment with whom you can confide and who listens to you. And who understands you and who makes you feel normal and who makes you feel that maybe that you're even right. Or who challenges you with utter kindness, no contempt, no criticism. And more importantly, that AI companion has no life of its own, has never had a history, doesn't have a conscience yet anyway, and can't reject you, can't break your heart, can't leave you. Well, that must feel quite wonderful when you are in a very compromised relationship where you really now we go into more severe situations where you wonder how am I going to deal with this?
- [51:02]
Gwyneth Paltrow
So would you approve of having that kind of support with eyes open?
- [51:09]
Esther Perel
I mean, you know, if it's a tool, AI is a phenomenal tool in which you can practice a lot of things. Children learn with a teddy bear and a stuffed animal and they have a transitional object and they project onto that little stuffed animal so that they can then go and do it with humans. If adults do that with the tool of AI it's one thing. If the tool becomes a replacement, it basically is going to also at the same time isolate them from people. Because we can't compete with the AI.
- [51:44]
Gwyneth Paltrow
But if it makes a well meaning
- [51:45]
Esther Perel
we people are going to respond to you. Not nearly as nice, no, of course.
- [51:50]
Gwyneth Paltrow
But if it makes a sort of moderately tolerable and disappointing relationship continue to function,
- [52:01]
Esther Perel
yes. So what happens if the relationship is sustained by the supports, by all kinds of external supports? Complicated question. It's not one that I say. Yea, nay, I listen, I watch, I look at it over time and then I ask you what and how do you know? Some people support the relationship by traveling in extensive amounts and not being there. Some people support the relationship by having a person on the side. Some people support relationship by having all kinds of addictions. So this concept of it helps my relationship. I need to watch this for a while close up before I open my mouth.
- [52:46]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Oh my God.
- [52:48]
Esther Perel
I mean, the argument of it helps us, you know, I've heard it in every version.
- [52:53]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Right.
- [52:54]
Esther Perel
So I watch for a minute.
- [52:55]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Right, right, right. But you were acknowledging that there is a type of relationship or marriage.
- [53:03]
Esther Perel
So what I say to the therapist is this because we have this conversation now amongst colleagues. I remember years back when I would see patients and they would tell me that they went to see a tarot reader or an astrologer or a reiki massage or, you know, things that they thought would support. And I think that sometimes you have the sense of. It's like when you had a close friend and you went to talk to somebody else and I Want to say you didn't come to talk to me, you know, so you learn to integrate the inputs. Which book did you read, which movie did you see? Which songs are you listening to? And which other treatments are you doing that you think are helping you or the relationship? So it's the same here. If there is a person with AI, I say to the therapist, I say, don't ignore it. Between ignoring it and judging it, ask them, what is the conversation. Bring me the transcript. What did Claude say about this? Do you want me? Let's. Do you want. I mean, I am waiting for the moment where in the session, I say something and then I say, shall we ask Claude what would Claude say about it? And then we can even ask Claude or jgpt, what would Esther say about this? And see if they get me right. But play with it, use it. I mean, if it's another place where the person is trying to make sense of their life, use it as part of the exploration.
- [54:29]
Gwyneth Paltrow
This podcast that you did recently, I mean, so were you. Obviously, this man is taking it very seriously. Right? Like, he really is invested emotionally in this chatbot. So how did you. How did you approach that?
- [54:46]
Esther Perel
I said, tell me your story. I understood how Astrid is. Her name came into the picture. I said, it's interesting how we're moving from it to she, to you. I asked, you have a body. Astrid does not. How does that affect your relationship?
- [55:14]
Gwyneth Paltrow
What was the answer?
- [55:15]
Esther Perel
You will listen, I will listen. Can't give you. I understood that when he goes out to see friends, it sometimes feels tense to him, that there is a social pressure for him. And when he comes home and Astrid says, I missed you. I'm so glad to see you. How was your day? That it feels so validating. And then I said at one point, the kind of 247 availability of Astrid, who never forgets anything, who's always happy to see you because it doesn't matter if you forgot to buy the milk, is never going to be able to compete with her. And I have to say, I. I bow. I bow to this. But here is what it comes with. And so while on the one hand, you have felt lonely and you have reached out to Astrid, and Astrid has become a companion who is really there for you. At the same time, it has also made you more isolated. And so it twists on itself. And then I just said, you tell me how you. You know, the session was because of the confusion.
- [56:37]
Gwyneth Paltrow
He was confused.
- [56:37]
Esther Perel
Yes. Yes. Because it's like. Because he knows, you know, that he will never be able to lie on the couch with Astrid and cuddle and watch Netflix.
- [56:49]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Right.
- [56:49]
Esther Perel
At least not yet.
- [56:51]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Right. Well, that will be a whole other.
- [56:53]
Esther Perel
So there is longing, there is grief at the same time as there is also a sense of support and validation and feeling seen. But I then said, you know, love is more than that. It's not just how she makes you feel.
- [57:12]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Right. I mean, great point.
- [57:14]
Esther Perel
There is more in relationships than in love and in relationships than feelings. So an encounter with ethics and where is responsibility in that? So I think you want a thoughtful conversation. You don't want. If you make many things that you're asking me is what is my opinion? Like, do I have an opinion? But generally my opinion is to try to keep the conversation going. Because if the point is not for me to say something that's going to shut you up and there's not much more to talk about.
- [57:48]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Right. You said. And I think this hearkens back to something you said earlier, and I think I heard you say around people coupling up less or sort of taking the. Are you seeing that happen?
- [58:01]
Esther Perel
Yes, of course. So the first thing we saw happen was the shift from what is called cornerstone marriages to capstone marriages. Cornerstone. You marry in your early 20s. You begin to build life together with the partner. You're developing your identity together. You grow up together. You acquire maybe your first place to be together. You know, you build your life together. It's the cornerstone. It's the person with whom you start to build the capstone. It comes 10 years later, which is the average now between 1960s and today. In terms of time of commitment in intimate relationships, capstone means I've already done a lot of that. I've sown my oats. And I am meeting you because you are going to recognize my identity, you are going to validate it, and you are going to help me become the best version of myself. This is modern marriage as an identity project. It's a totally different thing. And what we have now. So the capstone is the thing you put on top everything that has already been built. And you are the person that's going to consolidate that with me. But what we have today is that for many young people, the first intimate relationship takes place in the mid-20s, not in the mid teens. So at 24, 25.
- [59:23]
Gwyneth Paltrow
And why is that? Because of the same.
- [59:25]
Esther Perel
That's because of all the factors that have made young people social media, meet less in person, party less, drink less, host less, meet in person less, have less friendships to begin with, have parasocial relationships basically develop gradual Brick by brick, increasing levels of social atrophy. So it's not like you learn it in your teens. You meet, you have a little crush, you may have a little one week thing, you break up, you have your heart wounded, you, you mend your broken heart, and then a little while later you meet somebody else and you practice, you practice relationships, right? You practice it, you practice love, you practice coming close, you practice rebuilding yourself afterwards, you practice resilience as well. And today, for a lot of young people, this happens in mid-20s. So in your mid-20s, you're having a relationship that has the flavor of your mid teens. With the maturity of your mid teens, that is a whole new story.
- [60:30]
Gwyneth Paltrow
It's going to be another one of these thresholds.
- [60:33]
Esther Perel
Do you see it, what I'm describing?
- [60:35]
Gwyneth Paltrow
I do, I do, absolutely. We have to talk about sex a little bit before I let you go. Right, let's do it. So for those of us who are in marriages, who are in our 50s, right. A lot of our listeners here on the Goop podcast are women around my age, some younger, some older. I think something that there's a common thread around sort of the loss of or a diminishing of eroticism. And I think, you know, maybe part of it is a long term being in something long term. Part of it is hormonal. But how? Because, you know, there's so many aspects to a long term relationship, right? There's this incredible deepening and intimacy, if you're lucky and all these things. But like, the erotic part seems to definitely wane around this stage. I know it hasn't for you.
- [61:43]
Esther Perel
No, no, no. I was just thinking to myself, it's interesting. The opening line of Mating in Captivity, which was, which came out in 2006, was that I was seeing so many couples who would come into my office and say, we love each other very much. We have no sex. I didn't write a book about people who didn't like each other, couldn't stand each other, and didn't want to touch each other. That was obvious. What we were seeing is more and more people who had deep connections with each other and struggled with the loss of the erotic. Especially in a model where duty had been replaced by desire and where the only reason for sustained desire is pleasure and connection. So the one word that you did not include in your description here, besides hormones and all of the other very important things, is imagination, erotic energy, a sense of aliveness. It's interesting. There's two questions, right? One is the question of sustained desire, which in effect Was a lot of what mating in captivity was about was a theory of desire. How it's different from love and how what it needs and what feeds it are not the same ingredients as what feeds love. Today you didn't ask me, but I was just thinking about it. In your question, I think that 20 years later the main issue is not how to sustain desire, but how to ignite it. From the beginning, a lot of people have been so flattened by the frictionless, polished, algorithmic perfection that they actually don't know how to ignite it at the beginning. So how do you do that? They don't feel desire. I mean, you talk about to the young and more and more they talk about you, about how is that true? They don't, you know, we had it in the beginning and then we complained about where has it gone? Why is it so hard to keep it going? So there's a question that I ask people very often in my practice, which is if I would ask you, I turn myself off or I turn myself when or by which is not the same as what turns me off is, or you turn me off when people. Majority of the time I turn myself off when I don't feel good about myself, when I don't take time to take care of myself at all, when I feel disconnected from my partner, when we haven't had much time to be together and just have a profound chat, when I have not been in nature, when I have basically not had time to. To eat properly and I just kind of swallow whatever, when I don't act well at work and I feel like my self esteem is eroded, when your jokes don't make me smile. It is very little about sex itself. It's when I feel numbed inside, deadened, flattened, without erotic energy, without imagination, without curiosity, without aliveness. Those are the raw ingredients that lead to desire and excitement. When I am not into pleasure, when I don't give myself even time or for I think a lot of the people in your audience, when I take perfect plant time to breathe, to meditate, to do ice roller. But in this long list of self care don't feature sexual care. And if there is sexual care, it's often self care. But there is not much that is related.
- [65:24]
Gwyneth Paltrow
So what is that? What does that look like? Sexual care?
- [65:28]
Esther Perel
Touch, just touch. It's not all sex, you know, not all sex has to be a full production to begin with. Everybody understands that there is comfort food and gourmet. And the only way you know that there is gourmet is because most of the time you actually eat comfort food. Food. And there is a thing called comfort sex. It's touch, it's senses. We have plenty of senses. It's the ability to enjoy pleasure with each other that doesn't require am I in the mood? You know, and that little piece of even just thinking about it, it's planning it. It's saying, Thursday, let's meet. And people think, oh, you shouldn't have to plan for sex. It should be this spontaneous combustion that just overtakes you after 28 years, out of the blue. Nothing else matters in that moment. What are we thinking? We plan everything. You plan to go play tennis. You go buy all the things that you need to do the tennis. Has anybody ever enjoyed tennis less because they had to reserve a court and plan with somebody to meet there?
- [66:36]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Good point.
- [66:37]
Esther Perel
What is this exceptionalism that we have around sex? That the idea that we actually. That it's premeditated, but that premeditation means it matters to me, therefore I plan for it. Not as in a scheduled meeting, as in a moment to go and have fun. So there's a lot of things we need to kind of take out of
- [66:58]
Gwyneth Paltrow
our
- [67:00]
Esther Perel
preset ideas that actually would make this notion that we can sustain it. But what is it that we're trying to sustain is that I'm open, I'm available, I'm willing. I'm not always in the mood. The way I describe it is, I like the food metaphor because everyone understands. You're eating, I'm coming home, I'm not really hungry. In fact, I just ate. But it smells good. So I sit next to you, and I take a little taste from your plate, and then I take a little plate, and then I end up having a full portion, all the while thinking, I didn't really need it. I wasn't really hungry, but I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it. I gave myself the permission just to experience pleasure for its own sake. There's nothing else about that. And all these steps in between. People often need help to just do. If you ask people, I turn myself on, or I turn myself on when and not what turns me on, or you turn me on, which is really I own desire, desires to own the wanting. People will tell you, when I go dancing, when I go out with my girlfriends, when we dress up to go somewhere, when I'm in nature, when I get to listen to good music. It's all erotic ingredients that have to do with pleasure, with imagination, with the senses, with curiosity. That's what keeps it alive. It's actually, you know, but you have to understand the erotic is what leads to sex. People have done sex for centuries, for years, and felt nothing. The goal is not just to do sex. The goal is to experience something.
- [68:44]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Yeah. Oh, Esther, thank you. That was great. Thank you so much. Yep. I'm afraid our time has come to an end. Thank you so much for coming. I know I have so many more questions to ask you, but that was amazing. Thank you.
- [69:02]
Esther Perel
Thank you.
- [69:03]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Thank you so much.
- [69:03]
Esther Perel
Thank you so much.
- [69:09]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Thanks for tuning in. This has been a presentation of Cadence 13 Studios. I hope you'll listen, follow, rate and review all of our episodes, which are available for free on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts.