Burnout, Boundaries, and the Business of Starting Over

Summary

Podcast Summary: The goop Podcast

Episode: Burnout, Boundaries, and the Business of Starting Over
Host: Gwyneth Paltrow
Guest: Greg Renfrew
Date: June 23, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode features a candid and rich conversation between Gwyneth Paltrow and Greg Renfrew, the founder and former CEO of BeautyCounter and founder of Counter. Together, they explore Greg’s entrepreneurial journey, the evolution and challenges of the clean beauty movement, the painful lessons of losing and reclaiming a business, and the essential practices for avoiding burnout and living with authenticity. The episode is both a masterclass in modern entrepreneurship and an honest reflection on personal transformation, resilience, and redefining leadership in wellness and beauty.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Greg’s Entrepreneurial Origins (04:34–09:00)

• Background & Early Hustle:
  • Grew up with periods of financial insecurity, driving her early entrepreneurial spirit (04:34).
  • First real business: cleaning company in college to fund her desire to travel.
  • Launched “The Wedding List” in the late '90s after a failed bridesmaids’ dress venture, importing a UK concept to the US, pioneering e-commerce in the wedding registry space (08:34).
  • Sold the company to Martha Stewart in 2001, learning vital lessons in branding, domesticity, and reinvention.

The Role of Firstborns and Family Pressure (05:33)

• Both Gwyneth and Greg reflect on firstborn dynamics and the heightened sense of responsibility and expectation in both their families.

Lessons from Career Setbacks (11:52–15:56)

• Career Ups and Downs:
  • Consulting stints, then a humiliating public firing by the Hilfigers: “I got fired in front of my team via messenger. Wow.” (11:55)
  • Learned the crucial importance of humility and managing creative people with empathy, not arrogance.
  • Quote: “From that day forward, I’ve always felt like there is no place for arrogance in the business place. Or just arrogance in life.” –Greg (13:18)
  • Developed a deeper understanding of how to balance creativity with business demands.

Clean Beauty Movement—Origins and Challenges (19:19–27:58)

• Sparked by Environmental Awareness:
  • Influenced by “An Inconvenient Truth” (19:46), realized the connection between environmental toxins, human health, and the lack of regulation in beauty.
  • Couldn’t find products that reflected both efficacy and clean standards, so she built BeautyCounter.
  • “Why am I being asked to compromise, minimize my health in the name of beauty? Why can’t I have both?” –Greg (21:39)
• Navigating Undefined “Clean”:
  • Early days were spent piecing together standards from environmental groups and experts.
  • Noted the enormous greenwashing and lack of regulation in the industry. Clean “standards” differ widely by retailer, resulting in consumer confusion and vulnerability to misinformation (25:21–26:32).
  • Gwyneth: “A lot of it is total bullshit.” (26:30)
• Advocacy:
  • BeautyCounter played a pivotal role in legislative campaigns to ban/reduce toxic chemicals in personal care, culminating in passing landmark legislation (33:07).

Building an Empowerment Movement Through Business (29:31–35:51)

• Innovative Business Model:
  • Used direct selling to build grassroots movements of women educating communities about safe ingredients.
  • “We trust people more than companies and the government. More times than not, we trust our friends.” –Greg (31:35)
  • Business as a genuine engine for social and environmental change.
• Cultural and Market Impact:
  • BeautyCounter reached $300M in revenue before being sold for $1B (37:12).

The Pain & Lesson of Losing Control: Selling, Private Equity, and Fallout (37:12–47:17)

• Post-Acquisition Turbulence:
  • Sale coincided with the end of the pandemic, shift in consumer spending, and difficult summer.
  • Greg’s removal as CEO led to a spiral; new leadership failed to honor company DNA, staff knowledge, or community.
  • On being sidelined: “It’s hard to watch someone else take over your baby... It’s almost like having someone else help raise your children.” –Greg (41:19)
• Lessons on Founder Value:
  • Removing a founder and institutional knowledge is often a fatal error. “When you take an industry disruptor and try to apply an old school playbook, it just doesn’t work.” (47:39)
  • BeautyCounter entered foreclosure after poor decisions and loss of brand/community trust.

Returning & Rebuilding: Buying Back the Company (49:49–54:19)

• Journey Back:
  • Family and community motivated Greg to attempt a buy-back.
  • An emotional process: “I was genuinely scared... I was petrified.” (52:06)
• Hard Decision to Shut Down and Restart:
  • Closed the company, let go of all staff, then repurchased assets.
  • Decision: “The only way forward was to let it die and start a new company and begin anew.” (53:37)
  • Retained product formulas, database, and relaunched as “Counter,” with an intention to focus the brand and business model.

Reinvention: Building Counter and a More Sustainable Approach (57:40–62:36)

• Why Counter?
  • Chose the new name to signal a fresh start, lean into an underserved demographic (35+ women), reduce SKUs, and retain a strong clean beauty stance.
  • “We were always counter to the industry... Counter felt right. And we all felt really good about it.” (59:03)
• New Priorities and Wisdom:
  • Laser focus on profitability, simplicity, and unique value rather than growth-at-all-costs or copying competitors.
  • From 235 SKUs to just 19 at launch.
  • “If you don’t feel so strongly about that product that you’d literally be willing to risk your job over it... then let’s not do it.” (61:14)
  • Greg feels “calm,” “conviction,” and “a high level of humility” with this new chapter.

Community, Women Supporting Women, and Brand Partners (62:36–65:41)

• Relaunching with Community:
  • Revamped consultant network into “brand partners” with greater transparency and reduced hierarchy.
  • Some former partners have returned; many remain loyal.
  • “The most influential people are always your friends, and women listen to other women.” (62:59)
• Reflections on Competition vs. Collaboration:
  • “There’s so much room for all of us to be successful and all of us to help women along the way.” (63:40)

Burnout, Boundaries, and Personal Growth (67:11–74:45)

• Managing Burnout:
  • Differentiates between feeling overwhelmed (current) and burned out (former). “For me, burnout is when I feel apathy...where I just feel like I don’t...I’m indifferent.” (67:24)
• Establishing Boundaries:
  • Greg is now more decisive, less people-pleasing, and upfront about capacity. Taught herself to say no, even at the risk of seeming blunt (70:07).
  • Prioritizes exercise, clean eating, sleep, and being present.
  • Lessons in not catastrophizing setbacks—choosing calm, transparency, and adaptability (72:26).
• On Perfectionism & Realistic Expectations:
  • “We don’t have to present perfection to the world... You can have it all in life, just not all on the same day or even the same month or even the same year.” (73:57)
  • Counsels listeners: “It’s okay not to be perfect. You’re never gonna be.” (74:36)
• Body Image & Social Media:
  • Reinforces a stance against “problem-creation”: “We are committed to not creating problems that our products will solve... Is having a wrinkle a problem? No, it’s just part of the aging process.” (75:34)

Uplifting Other Women (76:10–77:40)

• Praise for Gwyneth and Community:
  • Greg appreciates the genuine, non-competitive support among female founders, especially from Gwyneth and Goop.
  • “If more people were doing this [lifting up other women], the world would just be a better place... I hope my story helps other women know that they can do it, and it’s going to be hard, but they’ve got this.” (76:10; 77:06)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Losing and Reclaiming a Business:
  • “I was genuinely scared...what have I done? The complexity of the business and what I had taken on...” –Greg (52:06)
• On Clean Beauty Confusion:
  • “A lot of it is total bullshit.” –Gwyneth (26:30)
• On Emotional Attachment & Identity:
  • “I didn’t know who I was...it’s hard to watch someone else take over your baby...it’s almost like having someone else help raise your children.” –Greg (41:19)
• On Leadership:
  • “There is no place for arrogance in the business place. Or just arrogance in life.” –Greg (13:18)
• On Transparency:
  • “We’re being transparent and not allowing myself to go crazy over things I cannot control.” –Greg (72:26)
• On Perfectionism:
  • “You can have it all in life, just can’t always have it all in the same day... It’s okay not to be perfect. You’re never going to be.” –Greg (73:57; 74:36)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Greg’s early entrepreneurial drive: 04:34–09:00
• Lessons in humility from setbacks: 11:52–15:56
• Origins of clean beauty mission: 19:19–22:45
• Industry greenwashing & lack of standards: 24:08–26:32
• Direct selling & empowerment: 29:31–32:21
• Role in legislative advocacy: 33:07–35:51
• BeautyCounter's sale, fallout, and personal impact: 37:12–43:33
• Being pushed out and journey to buy back business: 47:39–54:19
• Shutting down, letting go, and starting anew: 52:21–57:40
• Reimagining as Counter & new strategy: 57:40–62:36
• Mental health, boundaries, and resilience: 67:11–74:45

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Tone and Language

The conversation is warm, vulnerable, deeply honest, and occasionally humorous, with both women weaving candid admissions with empowering advice. Their tone balances business acumen and emotional candor, offering practical wisdom for founders, female leaders, and anyone navigating change or burnout.

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TL;DR

Greg Renfrew’s journey, from the founding of BeautyCounter through its billion-dollar sale, being ousted, buying it back, and relaunching as Counter, is a profound story of innovation, heartbreak, resilience, and reinvention. Together with Gwyneth Paltrow, she explores the lessons of clean beauty, the pitfalls of private equity, the necessity of boundaries, the importance of women supporting each other, and the beauty of embracing imperfection. This episode is essential listening for anyone interested in entrepreneurship, wellness, or conscious leadership.

Transcript

[Greg Renfrew]

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[Gwyneth Paltrow]

you for tuning in to the GOOP podcast. Today's episode is made possible by Polestar. Those who know me know my car is my mobile sanctuary. It's one of the few places in the day that can feel really calm and restorative. So the space matters. And that's why I love Polestar 3. It's an all electric SUV with a kind of thoughtful innovation that I'm always drawn to. Things like massage seats, immersive 3D surround sound, and Google Gemini, which can answer questions, set reminders, and just make life feel a little more streamlined. When I'm on the go, the technology is seamlessly integrated and complements the minimalist design. Everything feels intentional, clean and beautifully considered. Whether I'm heading to a meeting or just taking a moment for myself in the car, Polestar 3 makes the drive feel like a sanctuary. Learn more and book your Test [e-mail].

[Greg Renfrew]

When you are pioneering anything or introducing new ideas to the culture, you get criticized.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

You do?

[Greg Renfrew]

Yeah, did you hear about that? I didn't find the one. I found someone I respected and we made it the one. In the sort of longing kind of view of love, people understand each other as if by magic. Nothing in itself is addictive on the one hand. On the other hand, everything could be addictive if there's an emptiness in that person that needs to be filled.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I now know that nobody changes until they change their energy. And when you change your energy, you change your life. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow. This is the GOOP Podcast, bringing together thought leaders, culture changers, creatives, founders and CEOs, scientists, doctors, healers and seekers here to start conversations. Because simply asking questions and listening has the power to change the way we see the world. Here we go. This week we're sharing a gem from the GOOP Podcast archives. Welcome to the Goop Podcast. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow, and today I'm joined by my friend Greg Renfrew, an entrepreneur, a change maker, and the founder and former CEO of Beauty Counter, where she helped spark the clean beauty movement in the U.S. now she's channeling everything she's learned into her next chapter, Counter, a fresh take on clean beauty focused on transparency, performance, and impact. And we are proud to be bringing it into the GOOP world. I wanted to sit down with Greg to talk about reinvention, what clean really means today and how she's rethinking everything from ingredients to leadership. So let's get into it. Welcome to the Goop Podcast, Greg. It's so good to have you on. You have. You know, we've been friends for a long time now. We're getting up there.

[Greg Renfrew]

I'm getting up there. You're still, luckily for you, a few years behind me.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

No, but I'm right. I'm right. I'm neck and neck with you. And, you know, we. I'm trying to think. When we first met, it was quite a while ago, we had a lot of mutual friends here on the east coast. And I knew that you were a serial entrepreneur starting really amazing companies. And then I really got to know you when you started Beauty Counter, which was your. Was that your third business?

[Greg Renfrew]

It was my second real business. I had the wedding list first. I mean, I did some little things.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Okay, so tell. Tell me a little bit about your entrepreneurial journey. Start at the beginning.

[Greg Renfrew]

So I think it really started for me really early on. I mean, I think that I grew up in a family that by most standards was well positioned. But my parents got divorced and my dad got sick, and we fell on difficult times, and so we had some financial insecurity up and sort of a lot of ups and downs when I was growing up. And as such, I always spent a lot of time trying to figure out ways I could make money because I always wanted to do things and my parents encouraged me to do the things I wanted to do, but that I was gonna have to find that extra cash to do it. And so, I don't know, I always started solving problems. So, like, when I was in college, I started a cleaning company. Cause I wanted to go on something called Semester at Sea. I wanted to go around the world and I wanted to see it. I don't know, I was always babysitting, catering, you name it. But it's been kind of in. I think it's who I am. It's always been part of me. I've always seen things and wanted to address those issues and hopefully make some money while doing it.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right. Are you the firstborn in your family?

[Greg Renfrew]

I am, Yeah.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I notice, like, a lot of us are firstborn. I think we sort of feel that responsibility, either financially or emotionally or otherwise. Organizationally. I think a lot of us become founders who are firstborn, you know.

[Greg Renfrew]

That's interesting.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Greg Renfrew]

I have a younger brother. You have a younger brother. I have always. I also think there's, like, a lot of subtle pressure put on the firstborn to be the achiever, to take care of the whole family, to kind of prove.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Or not so subtle pressure.

[Greg Renfrew]

We discussed this, too. Or not so subtle pressure. Yes. So, yes, I think it's. I've always. I've always felt an enormous sense of responsibility to help take care of my family, and so. And I don't think that that was emphasized as much with my brother.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah, I think that's the same in my family as well. I think firstborn children, too, kind of. Also, you know, I don't mean this, like, very pejoratively, but we sort of bear the brunt of a lot of the dynamics that, you know, haven't been smoothed over yet. It's like, you know, by the time someone gets to their fourth kid, they're like, yeah, whatever, it's fine, you know. But the first one, there's like, this incredible expectation and a lot of projection, and for sure, I've been thinking about that a lot lately. So tell me about the wedding list. How you started that. That was your first foray.

[Greg Renfrew]

That was the first real thing. I started the wedding list. So I actually got married for a couple months when I was 25.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

A couple months? How many months?

[Greg Renfrew]

Five. Five in total. And actually, ironically, I just bumped into him for the first time in literally 30 years.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

No.

[Greg Renfrew]

In the Charlotte airport about three weeks ago when I was coming back from doing a new counter event, which is crazy. I hadn't seen him forever. But when I was going through the whole process of not just my own wedding, but in that age, when you're in your early to mid-20s, you were going to all these weddings and you're bridesmaids. I hated all the bridesmaids dresses. I just couldn't stand the things. I thought I looked terrible. They were cheap, they were expensive, but horribly made. So I started a bridesmaids dress company. That was kind of my first little thing. It was not successful, but we did about 40 weddings. And during the time that I was running that company and after my very short lived marriage, I decided to move to London and was introduced to a woman named Nicole Hindmarge who had started something called the Wedding List. And at the time it was a shopping service used by a lot of well to do families in London. And I thought, well, this is kind of interesting, maybe I can sell my bridesmaids dresses to her. So I went and met with her and she said, you know, we don't really do this in the uk. But she and I kept in touch. I was in London and I moved on to Hong Kong and at the time I was working in finance, which was not really that compelling for me. And I called her back and I said, listen, I want to bring this concept to the States. Would you be interested in partnering? And I think we can bring this online because I actually think that buying a wedding gift is more of a commodity. Once someone knows what they're comfortable spending, if it's on someone's list, they should be able to buy it online.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Greg Renfrew]

Which I know seems crazy now, but this was 1997 or 8.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Wow, that's early. It was really early. Really early.

[Greg Renfrew]

First true multichannel retail businesses. And I remember pitching up and down Sand Hill Road the convenience of online purchasing to a bunch of guys that were like wedding presents online.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

No thanks.

[Greg Renfrew]

No, no thanks. But anyway, that was my first real business.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And then did you sell that business?

[Greg Renfrew]

Sold the business of Martha Stewart.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

That's right.

[Greg Renfrew]

In 2001. Stayed on with her for a year. I mean, I learned a lot from her.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah, I mean she, it's so interesting. She's been such a cultural force for so many decades and like this unbelievable businesswoman and kind of started industries and did you see the documentary on her? It was so fascinating. Interesting. She's probably a firstborn too.

[Greg Renfrew]

You know what I think that she did so unbelievably well at the time, she made the average American woman become a goddess in her home on a budget. She showed her how to do it. She showed her how to lay a table, how to make things that she couldn't necessarily afford to buy or impress her friends. She did a really incredible job with that and I respect her for that because at the time, I mean, no one was doing that.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

You know, there's something I think about, like, I don't know, I've been thinking about this a lot lately, like where do, where do domesticity and feminism, like how do they overlap? You know, do they, do they not especially with all the sort of like trad wife stuff that's happening at the moment, and the backlash to that, but also the embrace of domesticity. And I feel like she had a brand of domesticity that was very, like, independent, you know?

[Greg Renfrew]

I agree.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Which I think is very inspiring. It's like, I'm doing this on my own terms kind of thing, which was very new. Yeah.

[Greg Renfrew]

I mean, she's a force.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Greg Renfrew]

And also a brilliant marketer. And as you said, she's continued to have cultural influence, and she reinvents herself over and over again. I mean, it's really unbelievable.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

It's amazing.

[Greg Renfrew]

She's done a lot of really great things. And I do think that women take pride in their home.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

So you sell the company in the Martha Stewart. That's your first exit. And then what's next?

[Greg Renfrew]

Well, then I was engaged at the time to my husband Mark, and we went to South Africa, and I went and volunteered in the townships because I

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

just needed to get a palate cleanser.

[Greg Renfrew]

I needed a palate cleanser. That's a nice way of saying it. Yeah. I just needed a breather. I wanted to do something different. And also, I just. I think, like, you. You and I have this in common, but I have an insatiable appetite for. For learning and travel and new cultures. So we went and spent some time in South Africa, and then I came back to New York, where I was living, and started doing consulting for Bergdorf Goodman and for Best and Company, some smaller brands, Intermix, et cetera, and was hired by the Hilfigers, by Tommy and Susie Hilfiger, who at the time owned this children's clothing company called Best and Company, which was, like, an old established brand that they were trying to bring back. And I had done a small consulting project for them within Bergdorfs earlier. And so I was like, wow, this is really cool. And the offer was amazing. And it just seemed too good to be true. And it was because I got fired in front of my team via messenger. Wow.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

In the middle of the meeting. Oh, my God. I've never even heard of that.

[Greg Renfrew]

Yeah, it was funny. I mean, I laugh about it now. I mean, it's unbelievable.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

It's unbelievable.

[Greg Renfrew]

Yeah. So anyway, got it. It was fun.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

It does. You know, it's. I find those things so humbling. Like, those. Those moments in life where you're told no or you're terminated or, like, they're so defining, and then. And how you react to them in the moment and in, like, the long, long tail of it. So what did that feel like? I mean, Was it.

[Greg Renfrew]

You know, I knew that it was an. It was an incredible learning experience. Because I think one of the things that I learned was. I mean, I was cocky, right? Like, I started the wedding list. I sold it to Martha Stewart. Not that it was necessarily so successful financially for me selling it, because it wasn't. But I was sort of one of those, like, new entrepreneurs and, you know. You know.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Greg Renfrew]

Because you've been in every single magazine, like, getting photographed, and I thought it was cool. Like, and maybe I was cool.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

You are cool.

[Greg Renfrew]

I am cool.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

You're cool.

[Greg Renfrew]

Whatever. I thought I was cool at the time. So I come into Best in Company, and Susie is an incredibly creative person, and she's extreme in that way. Like, she's extremely creative. And I didn't know how to manage her. And Tommy had asked me to sort of hire. Hired me to turn the business around and get it to profitability, but I just disrespected her. And I didn't. What I didn't do was learn how to pull out the brilliance from her.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Greg Renfrew]

And so when I was fired, I wasn't really that. I mean, the way in which I was fired, I was shocked.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Greg Renfrew]

Being fired was not surprising because the business wasn't going as well. And it's. From that day, Ford, I've always felt like there is no place for arrogance in the business place. Or just arrogance in life. Like, I just don't like arrogant people. You can have confidence in yourself, but, I mean, it was so humiliating. I mean, can you imagine you're sitting in the middle of a meeting in front of your entire team, and someone serves you papers and walks you out the door and, wow, like, I'm sure I cried into my wine that night, but, you know, I got over myself. I don't go into situations now, assuming I know more than the person with whom I'm speaking or the person that ran it before me.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Were those kind of the fundamental lessons out of that, like the sort of humility that it brought or.

[Greg Renfrew]

Yeah. I mean, I think that what I've learned is that highly creative people, you need to create environments in which you can constructively criticize their work because it's so personal and so subjective.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Greg Renfrew]

And so I've learned how to manage that without just in a meeting, just saying, you know, I don't like the color of your blue jeans or whatever, when that person was so proud of the church choice of that color or whatever. So I think I didn't. I learned how to handle creative people because they're they're critically important to business and you can't just let them do whatever they want in isolation either. There's a balance there. But I think that was a real, real learning is how to work with creative people in a way that's constructive and where they feel supported, but also understand the business side of it. And I think also just don't be cocky.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Greg Renfrew]

It's just not. It's just not a good truth.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

No, it's not. So how do you manage your own creativity then? Because you are a business person and you're also an incredibly creative person. You have incredible taste, you have great personal style. Everything you touch. I think of you as a very left brain, right brain person. So how have you been able to kind of manage those aspects of yourself?

[Greg Renfrew]

That's a good question. I think that. Well, first of all, thank you for the compliment. I think I've honed my personal style and gotten gained confidence over the years. And what I feel looks good on me, but what I feel is representative of who I am and all of that. And I think that clothing is actually such an important representation of ourselves and our values and people. I so often see people dress in things that they feel so uncomfortable in and then they don't present nearly as well as they could if they just wore whatever. Whatever felt best for them.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Greg Renfrew]

I think in terms of balancing creativity and the business side of my brain, I'm not a numbers person. I've had to work really hard to understand how. I mean, even. Even today, looking at spreadsheets and discounted cash flows and all this stuff, you know, I know I can still, like, no matter how hard I've worked on this, it is. Does not come naturally to me.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Greg Renfrew]

Whereas brand and the emotional connection to a consumer and why someone might want to make a purchase and how to communicate with people, that is much easier for me. But I've always, from the earliest days, looked at business as the conduit through which I can affect change and provide solutions and have fun. And so I guess I find business to be challenging, but I do think it is a real creative expression and I think it's really fun when it's going well and when you're not exhausted to be able to solve problems for people that make them happy. I mean, you do it all the time. You've done this so brilliantly over the years as an individual and with goop is, is just being able to answer questions that people are asking or anticipate what they might ask in the future. And being Having the confidence to hit something head on and then try to provide an immediate solution, whether that be through education or a product or both. I think it's fun.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah, I do too. And I think strategy is super creative and, and problem solving is super creative. But I just ask because, like, for myself, there are always, I mean, I am really a creative. And so, as you know, I've had to learn how to operate a business on the fly. And it's been, and it's been so interesting to sort of like have to constrain myself to do what's right for the business. You know, if I was unconstrained, I would do all manner of amazing creative things. I'd probably bankrupt us, you know. Yeah.

[Greg Renfrew]

But the thing about the thing, one thing I've learned because I've now been living in Los Angeles for reason, some 17 years, and one thing that I've learned about creatives and, and specifically actors also that have enjoyed success in their career is so often it's not about how talented they are as an actor or not, or a musician or anything else. It's about how they've actually thought about strategically about themselves as a brand and how to create longevity and sustainability and how to manage the people around them. And I think you've done that particularly well. And yeah, we all have to hold back. I mean, I, you know, every day my team is like, greg, no, we can't do all these things. So I'm like, okay, Well, I had 10 ideas. I know three of them are brilliant, five probably are worthless, and two, maybe we put in a parking lot. But you guys need to help me have the discipline and help me figure out which ones we can truly monetize and which ones really add value. I need that support around me.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah. Like you.

[Greg Renfrew]

Otherwise I could think of a million fun things to do.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right, right. So I really got to know you when you were launching Beauty Counter in Los Angeles. So for those listening who might not know, Greg launched Beauty Counter, which was really one of the first, I think the first clean beauty brand that really ever hit the market. I mean, obviously there were sort of health food store, you know, patchouli moisturizers and stuff like that. But you were the first person who really went into incredible detail in terms of, you know, what was safe in products, what wasn't. You were the first one that sort of, you know, took the government head on in terms of, like, the lack of legislation that had existed for decades and decades around personal beauty and as you know, like, pioneered the whole movement. I Mean, really, like you're the first one. So tell me a little bit about how clean beauty or clean ingredients, or like, how did you, how did you start to get interested in this space? Why did you become passionate about it? And then tell me a little bit about the process of, you know, ideating how you would turn it into a business.

[Greg Renfrew]

This entire journey started for me in 2006. One of my really dear friends, Lila Rose, had gone to see An Inconvenient Truth. And we were having breakfast the next day in the West Village and she said, greg, I've just seen this movie and it really rocked my world. And it was all about the environmental health movement and what was going on with the environment. And she said, look, you're a very direct, outspoken person. You're also pretty well connected. Like, you need to become a voice of the environmental health movement. And so I said, okay, I'll watch the film. And I did. And that film really shocked me because I realized as a consumer that I was doing a lot of things that were truly detrimental to the health of the earth. And then concurrently, I was sitting in the orcas in my early 30s or whatever, and I was watching so many of my friends get sick. I mean, you and I have a lot of mutual friends. I had good friends, men and women, different types of cancer.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Greg Renfrew]

I had so many friends struggling with fertility issues. I had so many friends, had given birth to kids with pretty significant health issues. And I started to wonder, what the hell's going on? Like, what is the connection between the health of our earth and human health? And one of the things I came to realize over, you know, a several year period, it wasn't like, was that there are all these toxic chemicals and those chemicals are wreaking havoc on our health and the health of the earth. And with that in mind, like you, I started making a lot of changes, like taking my shoes off at the door and trying to change my household cleaning products. Like, there were a lot of things that became obvious to me that I could do that were better for me and also better for the earth. Recycling, getting rid of my plastic containers and switching to glass. But then I sort of took it one step forward and was trying to figure out, you know, and I'm not, I've never been a huge makeup, like, beauty person. But, you know, I enjoyed skincare, whatever. I couldn't find any products that met my needs because to your point earlier, I think that there were all these sort of eco earthy brands which are fine.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Greg Renfrew]

But they appealed to a Very specific segment of the audience. And then if I looked at the brands that I'd known and loved and grown up with, that all of us know all of those brand names, they were filled with all these chemicals of concern. And I thought, well, why am I being asked to compromise, minimize my health in the name of beauty? Why can't I have both? Why can't I have products that are super chic, that I love, that I want to put on my body or on my face, that are also significantly safer for my health? And that's really what made me decide to take the risk of starting Beauty Counter. I mean, so naively. I mean, I knew nothing about beauty. I literally called one friend of mine who worked in hair care at l', Oreal, and I said, I don't know anything about this industry. Can you begin to educate me on this? And that person led me to another person. You led me to another person. And it was a. It was a long process. Yeah.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

How did you even, like. Because, you know, the guidelines weren't established. This is like years before, people were kind of creating their own portals for what was clean and what wasn't clean. Like, how did you even begin to discern what ingredients were. Like, were you online? Because this. Like this. This was not readily available.

[Greg Renfrew]

It was not available at all. It was really hard. I mean, I started working on this in late 2010, and we didn't launch until March of 13, and really, it took us that long. You know, it was a combination of asking a million people, so seeking out people from the environmental working Group, you know, like Hankook and those guys reading Stacy Malcolm's book. Not just a pretty Face, talking to people, you know, that were really involved in the health movement. I was introduced to this man, Bruce Akers, who was a green chemist. And I remember saying, I want chemical free. And he started laughing at me. He's like, there's no such thing.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Everything's a chemical.

[Greg Renfrew]

He's like, everything's a chemical. Water's a chemical. Like I said, okay, okay. So I'm learning. You know, it took a long time, but I just was. Was talking to a whole bunch of people. And then I was introduced to some people that were working on taking legislative action. Mia Davis, who was working with me at the time, was. Was doing something. I can't remember what was called now, safe cosmetics, something. Anyway, I just started talking to people, and it took a long time. And I ultimately hired Mia and some other people around me to try to help educate me. I mean, I said this to you earlier, before we started, I still can't pronounce half of the things that are in these products. I mean, I think it's incredibly complicated.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah, very complicated.

[Greg Renfrew]

And I don't pretend to know everything, but I do know is that we want endocrine disrupting chemicals, neurotoxins, reproductive toxins, etc, known carcinogens out of our bodies and out of our homes.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean it sort of seems like it should be table stakes, you know. So when you look back now, I mean and you think about the brands, you know, the sort of clean beauty movement that's come and you know, all of the big retailers have sort of clean beauty shops. We were talking about this earlier and I think this is something that we've talked about a lot. But there's a lot, a lot, a lot of greenwashing that goes on or non toxic washing or whatever we want to call it. You were talking about being in a retailer and they put you next to a clean brand and it's actually one of the most toxic brands on the market. So as a consumer, how do we start to understand what is actually clean and what's not or what's on the edge? I mean I remember our first, one of our first people at GOOP who we hired when we were doing our clean beauty had worked for you. Blair and I used to call her, her, you know, from stores and be like, read her ingredient because I had no idea. You know, it's like this is in the clean section. Is it clean? She'd be like, put that down and walk out of the store.

[Greg Renfrew]

You know, people still come to you with their sunscreen. I'm like, I know you don't want the Ava Benzone oxybenzone. I'm not sure what all these other nightly things are, but yeah, no, it's hard. It's really hard. I mean I think that that's one of the things reasons that we went after the state and federal government on these issues is that there is no. Well, first of all, there is no clean standard and there was no such thing as clean. But also consumers are left to their own devices to try to navigate these murky waters and understand what means what and what is clean and isn't. And I think that now I'm proud of the movement that we built and you were instrumental in building that. There are a group of us that built this clean beauty movement over time. But what's happened now, and I think this is probably when I think about what my opportunity is now with counter it's how do we set a definitive clean standard once and for all?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right?

[Greg Renfrew]

And how do we all. And it doesn't mean that I'm perfect and I can hit every single thing that we set, but if we all really set a high standard, how do we set that standard? Then how do we get the retailers to come along with this? Because one of the things that's really hard right now for consumers is that every retailer is defining. I mean, I'm talking large, big box retailers. They're all defining clean differently. And so how, as a consumer.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And a lot of it is total bullshit.

[Greg Renfrew]

And it is. And it's. It's serving their own. Their own needs. Not the needs. I mean, I've been in. And you and I have worked with some of the similar retailers. I've been in conversations at times that are like, well, you know, our guests don't really care about that. I'm like, well, I think they would if they knew what was in that. And so they say, well, no, some of them only want clean. I'm like, no, no, you should just. If you all took a stand, right, and started holding your brands claiming to be clean, accountable for what they're saying that they are, like, the whole industry would move forward.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

It's true. I mean, you know, at goop, for example, we. We have an incredibly stringent platform. Like, you know, I think we are by far, like, the strictest. And, you know, I have worked with brands to reformulate so that if they want to sell on goop, there are just certain things that we don't allow. My makeup artist in la, Georgie right now is in the process of, you know, she's like, ah, you know, you guys are such a pain in the ass. I'm like, I know, but, you know, I think it's super important and these hidden ingredients that actually are incredibly harmful. And to your point, like, there's a reason that there are so many health issues and there's, you know, I mean, I think all of the endocrine, the fertility issues you're talking about, I mean, there. We used to slather ourselves in endocrine disruptors, you know, let alone, like fire retardant on everything and all of the things that we breathe in, you know, every day. So I think personal care is like, I mean, that's.

[Greg Renfrew]

I mean, you put it on your largest.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Put it exactly every single day.

[Greg Renfrew]

Especially, you know, someone says, someone. People have asked me in the past, like, if, as an average consumer, if I am trying to navigate this and I have a Limited budget, what would you do? And I said, first of all, I would be shopping fragrance free. Because most of the offensive, so many of the offensive chemicals are hidden under international IP law, and so they're not disclosed. And so at least, you know, you're taking out some of those harmful chemicals like phthalates that bind that scent to your skin, and they so closely mimic our indicators endocrine system that your body doesn't know to reject it. You know, and I've said, you know, think about like your body lotion. If you're putting that on all over your body every day, and if you can't afford it, then literally just go put some coconut oil on or olive oil or something, because those things, you know, they go into your skin and they're in there, they're not coming out again. Right. So I think that they're. I've always tried to help people prioritize their spend and they're thinking when they're shopping with whichever brand.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah, absolutely. So let's talk a little bit about the Beauty Counter journey for a minute. So because it had a really interesting business model that you created and a ton of traction, and the business grew and grew and grew, did incredibly well. Will you tell me a little bit about sort of the trajectory of the business? How did you decide to create this? I don't know. I find it so empowering. You empowered women to sell the products, kind of, right? It was you. You were very limited at first in terms of distribution points. It was really through women.

[Greg Renfrew]

You know, I think that when I started Beauty Counter, I wanted to almost create an underground movement because I felt like all of the shelves were controlled by the incumbents, all of the large brands. Those conglomerates controlled every single shelf across America. And it doesn't matter whether it was in Walmart or Bloomingdale's or Bergdorf government or anything in between. So they didn't want the story of safe ingredients getting out there, because they were the ones that were putting these chemicals into the products and marketing their walks for Brexit, cancer, all these other things that they were all doing. You've got to be kidding me. I wanted to create a bit of an underground movement and catch them by surprise. I also think, and you know this better than anyone, that we. We trust people more than companies and the government. More times than not, we trust our friends. And I thought we had an important story to tell. And it needed to start with education. Because at the time when I started Beauty Counter, most Americans, like more than 80% of Americans had absolutely no idea that there were chemicals of concern in certain of the products that they were using. And we'd only banned 11 ingredients in the US that the U had banned or restricted almost 1400. Not all of those are commonly used in personal care products. But you know, other countries were taking notice of this and I thought we need to educate and how better to do that than the light of fire under the asses of a bunch of women who care. Because these are the women that are struggling with fertility. These are the kid ones whose sisters have breast cancers. These are the ones whose children are ill and they care deeply about these issues. And so a friend of mine said, you know, have you considered like a direct selling model? To which I was like, hell no. Like, you know, I'd always heard about these people that are over promising and under delivering. But when I started to look at it I thought, wow, this is interesting. We can actually power up a group of women who can educate their communities, their friends, their family, they can earn a living and for many of them do it while sitting in their home and taking care of their children or doing it through their Instagram feed or whatever. And it just sound like to me it was like a more compelling direct to consumer model than just going back to the big box retailers who are not going to want the story to get out.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Very disruptive and empowering again for. And, and was it a commission based.

[Greg Renfrew]

Yeah, they got paid commission and you know, it's not dissimilar to affiliates today. Yeah, I think that, you know, you were paid. There were a lot of things that, that came up in the old business that people didn't really understand. They thought people were able to buy a whole bunch of inventory itself from their homes. That wasn't the case. Case. We shipped everything through our E commerce platform unless we shipped something like through our relationship with you all. But they got a paid a commission on the sales and then a very, very small percentage of them built a team and they could get paid on other people's times. But it was like a tiny piece of that and a tiny piece of the business. But you know, it's also interesting because people don't like that team building aspect of those companies. But it's exactly like corporate America. Everyone builds a team.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Greg Renfrew]

You know, but anyway, it was, it was an interesting business model. But we did also want people to have the choice just to go to beautycounter.com to shop with us at Goop. Ultimately, towards the end we had a partnership with Ulta. So we Were always trying to or do collab with Target or whatever. We wanted to make sure we were reaching as many people and then also used those women to power up our advocacy efforts because we really wanted them to help us pass new pieces of legislation on both the state and federal level. And they did exactly that.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right. I mean that was incredible to watch you go do. I mean you single handedly cleaned up a lot of ingredients that are in personal care. I mean there's probably still a bit further to go, but you made incredible headway. And I know it was the first law since the 20s, is that right?

[Greg Renfrew]

It was the first time since 1938 that they had actually updated a major piece of federal legislation. It wasn't. FDR was put in something in place as part of the, the Food, Drugs and cosmetics act of 1938 or whatever. And it wasn't until then. And we held about 2,000 meetings on the Hill on both sides of the aisle. And I finally testified in front of Congress on behalf of our entire community. And I do think that we were instrumental in passing Mocra. We're not the only reason it passed, but I think we really did help put that issue on the map. And it was so empowering for people to be able to meet with their member of Congress to tell their personal stories about why this matters, why our health matters so much. Because I think sometimes people forget your health is literally your greatest asset.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah. And I think, you know, we've been a bit tricked in terms of, you know, like, I think, I mean in a capitalist culture where, you know, profit is valued above all, I think, and cheap ingredients which are potentially harmful valued above all. You know, I think we've been sort of trained to lose that immediacy of like food being medicine or personal care being medicine. The things that we're putting on us and eating, you know, it's like they've managed to sort of put barriers between. Right. So you. I think it's so important and it's been really interesting too to see the younger generation really clinging to this. And really, you know, anyway, like my daughter's friends, like they are very aware of environmental toxins, which I think is fantastic because it's, you know, the consumer are the ones who move the markets. Right. And those are the ones who are going to change an ingredients panel. Like if they stop buying something then the companies have to listen.

[Greg Renfrew]

I think people forget how powerful people think about voting in political elections. They forget that every single day you're voting with your wallet and the choices that you're making purchasing. And I do think that in many ways we sold our souls in the name of capitalism in this country. And I think that it is an incumbent upon us and brands because I do think what you said is true. I think that brands can move a consumer market way faster than a non profit organization. People fall in love with brands, they are emotionally connected to brands. If Nike tells you to just do it or whatever, people listen to these brands. And so we have opportunities as brands to actually move markets in a positive way. And I do think that the business and commerce can be used as an engine for positive change. I think you and I both feel very strongly about this and I think we both try in earnest to do that.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Definitely.

[Greg Renfrew]

And there are a lot of people that criticize us and say, oh, you're fear mongering or you're full of shit. But actually no, we're just doing the best job we can to try to help prove to the world that you can have a business that can be financially successful, but that also can have positive social impact and take care of the earth. And I don't, I think when you talk about, you and I have both have kids and we have similar age children. I mean I worry about this for them. So someone better start thinking about a triple bottom line and thinking about, well, what happened to those workers in the field? We did that whole mini documentary series on mica. We went to physically audit our mines and we found four year old children mining them that we were using in our products. And instead of hiding from it or switching to synthetic, we said, okay, how do we work with nonprofit organizations on the ground to help create systemic change because there's no other opportunity for those families to put food on the table. I mean there's a lot going on out there when fashion, certainly hearing a lot about it right now. But beauty and personal care is right there.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Bit of a reckoning there. Yes. Yep. So you grow beauty counter to like $300 million in revenue. Huge number. And you get approached to sell it. You sell the company for almost a billion dollars, right?

[Greg Renfrew]

A billion. Exactly. And somehow as a woman I was like, billion dollars is important to me. It was something that I felt like we need to demonstrate as women that we can hit these, these marks.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yes. So you sold to private equity. We were all of us and all of your friends and all in the founder community so proud. And I remember once being at a gathering with you with a lot of female entrepreneurs and you talking about your exit and it was like this heart swell of, like, pride from all of us. It was such an incredible achievement and accomplishment. Do you remember that one?

[Greg Renfrew]

I do.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I remember exactly where we were. And then you had, I think, a similar story that a lot of people have when, you know, private equity. You know, of course, they start out with all of the right intentions, like buying a brand and the value of a brand, the emotion of the brand that you're talking about, and then set out to scale it further. Can you talk a little bit about what that was like? And then you lost control at a certain point? I just think it's so. There's so many interesting lessons for founders and CEOs in your story.

[Greg Renfrew]

I always remind people because when you look on the surface of someone's brand or the person, everything seems. Always seems so great and successful. It's like, oh, I remember one of my friends said something about. About the brand. And they're like, God, they were just like an overnight success. And I said, overnight Success is like 10 years, 24, 7. That's overnight success.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah. Yeah. It's hard. Yeah.

[Greg Renfrew]

So when I sold the brand, it was May 20th was the day we close of 2021. And actually, that was a really important day for me. Cause it was my father's birthday. My dad died a really long time ago of cancer.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Greg Renfrew]

So you and I have had that in common. I was in my 20s when he died, and so I just thought it was really cool that it was his birthday. And I remembered it. I cried that whole day. I was so, so proud. I mean, I still. You know, it's like, as a woman, to have started a business and sold it for a billion dollars. It was just a huge moment. And to have represented all these amazing women to get to where we were was awesome. And I felt so proud. And then, unfortunately for me, I think that it was. It happened concurrently, like, exactly at the time that the world opened up. I think you and I talked about this this summer where everyone had come out of the pandemic, where they were really inwardly focused. The only thing you could really spend money on was your food and your skincare and things like that. And what happened while we were selling through women and many of them went on holiday, as they should, got out of their homes, people redirected their spend to retail and to travel and other things. And our business stumbled that summer. One of the things that's been said often about brands, and mine in particular at the time was, oh, well, you just had this Covid bump. I'm like, no, I think we flawlessly executed Covid. I think we nailed it. What? I don't think I flawlessly executed as a CEO. I didn't anticipate what it would be like for both our sellers and our clients when we came out of the pandemic and they had to reimagine how they were doing business. And we had a hard summer. And that October, after five months later, they told me they were going to remove me as CEO and that they were going to look for. For a more established beauty CEO to come in and replace me. Which was very hard to hear.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Greg Renfrew]

I mean, I was. I mean, I remember exactly where I was. I was on my way to parents weekend for my daughter's. Eldest daughter Phoebe's parents weekend. And I was in the airport and I remember just hanging up the phone and crying all the way up there because I didn't want it, because I really felt like I was capable of running the company. And I felt like for eight years I'd done a pretty damn good job job. And I did recognize that we weren't growing as quickly, but we were still growing and everyone else was struggling, too. Yeah, that was tough.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah. And so then how did you. How did you manage through that? Because you still had a role at the company? Like, what. Internally? What. What was that like for you to sort of have to forcibly shift into something else and still be a team member? And I'm just so curious about, like, your. The inner workings of you during that time.

[Greg Renfrew]

Yeah, I mean, I. Look, I don't think I'm very good at it. You know, I had to do that when I sold my company to Martha Stewart. All of a sudden it was Martha's company and everything was about Martha. And I was like, it's hard when, you know. And I think that's partially ego and partially just. It's hard to watch someone else take over your baby and tell you it's almost like having. I mean, I haven't experienced this, but you have. It's like having somebody else help raise your children. And you're like, well, like, I know them better than anybody. Like, what do you mean? You've just made that choice for my. My child. And again, maybe they're doing with the best intentions, but it's not your. It wouldn't have been your decision.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Greg Renfrew]

So it's very emotional and hard. So I. I really wanted to publicly put on a good face and smile and say that I was welcoming in this new CEO, but I was dying inside. And. And quite frankly, he came in and wanted nothing to do with me from the very first day he canceled our first meeting. And arrogance, again, I think, assumed because he had been a seasoned beauty CEO, that he knew better than I did. And I think one of the great learnings for all of us is it's so easy to come in from the outside and look at. I could come into goop and I could look at all your problems and be like, why did you make that decision? Why did you do this? I could have done it. But the reality is you don't have the context. You don't know what happened happened in that moment or why that choice was made. And, of course, some of those decisions were bad decisions. But also, sometimes listening to people that built it, understanding who has the institutional knowledge is actually very valuable. And so if I could say anything to founders, one is, you know, recognize your worth. You may not be the best operator, There may be a better scaler in terms of operations, but your gut instinct is right about your business. And I think that that was immediately ignored, which was really hard, which is why we basically couldn't work together.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right. And so at some point, he was no longer there, right? Well, he had me removed immediately.

[Greg Renfrew]

So he and I only worked together for, I think, three or four months, and then I was gone. And I was gone for two years. And during the two years, he made some really poor choices that led to a place where the board called me back in in the fall of 2023 to say, would you come back in as CEO? We think you're the right person to lead the company.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And what was that? What did that feel like? I mean, you were, like, on a beach. You were chilling.

[Greg Renfrew]

Finally, I tried to say this to friends of mine. It's like, you are totally in love with your boyfriend or your husband or whatever. Well, this is what it was like. This is actually how this all went down. So I'm in love with my husband, and he leaves me for this brighter, shinier, hotter woman. But we got to go to the family weddings together. We've got kids. So I gotta smile in front of the whole family and act like I'm thrilled that he's now married to this woman and smile in front of my children and act like it's all good. But meanwhile, I'm seething with anger. And then, like, let's just say two years later, he decides that girl isn't actually his one and he really wants me back. You're like, you've got to be kidding me. I just got over you. Like, I finally got over you. And you know, because you saw me and I was crying. I was going to therapy and I was like, I was doing anything I and everything to try to move on. This was such a huge part of my identity and I was still in love with the business and working with the women. And then the second I'm like, okay, I'm out. I've got this. I'm finally, you know, Mark, my husband was finally like, you gotta move on. And I did. And then they called, of course. It's like, this is like Dating 101. The minute you don't care about the guy anymore, they're gonna call. So I think that, you know, they called and at first I was like, well, and then I just said no, I really, I don't, I think I've actually liked for my own emotional well being, I don't think I can go back there. But then, you know, they really said they need you. And I thought about that community of women, right? And I thought like, I owe it to them. And we still have work to be done. And so I went back in, in February of 2024 to try to turn the company around.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

At that point. What was the revenue number?

[Greg Renfrew]

Half of what it had been. So when I sold the company, it was close to 400 million. When I came back in, it was just over 2.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Wow, okay.

[Greg Renfrew]

And it was no longer profitable. But it was just too late. I mean, honestly, it's funny because at the time, you know, quickly made the decision not to continue to invest or the private equity firm and I was really upset with them at the time. And it's funny, I've spoken to them since I realized now they saw what I couldn't see because I was so emotionally attached that it just was too late.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

It was. And what does that mean, too late how?

[Greg Renfrew]

I just think it was. There were, there'd been so many decisions made over a period of time that

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

had you lost trust with the customer? I think it was a couple sellers.

[Greg Renfrew]

I think we had degraded the brand a little bit because we were, it was constantly on promotion, right. You've seen this happen with brands, when brands aren't doing well, then it's like, let's just discount more and more and more. So I think that there was that lost trust loss with the women.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Greg Renfrew]

Because we had gone from being a very emotionally driven, purpose driven community with a female founder to a very corporate transactional. So I think that was really hard for them. And there had been changes made to compensation. A lot of things had changed, some of which I agree with, but it was still really hard. And then I think that from a branding standpoint, I think again they kind of decided they wanted to change all the branding and remove the founder. I just, there were a whole bunch of things that went on and I just, I think that it was, it wasn't going to work, which is why we went into foreclosure. I mean we were, we were in breach of our debt covenants. I didn't even really know what debt covenants were at the time. Now I do, I know a lot about all these things now, but it just, I think it was just a little too late at the time.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

So did it the company file for bankruptcy?

[Greg Renfrew]

No, we actually, actually we didn't file for bankruptcy, but we did go into foreclosure.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Okay.

[Greg Renfrew]

And we had been honestly from the fall of 23 straight up until when we went into foreclosure, we had been trying in earnest to find a home for the company, to either find a financial sponsor or a strategic to purchase it or you know, that we talked to a couple direct selling company like we've been talking to anyone and everyone and there were people that sort of, excuse me, were circling around it, but no one actually put in a viable

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

offer to buy the company. Right. What do you think? The like looking back, what decisions, what were the wrong decisions that were made by the leader at the time, what would you have done differently? When you look back at the person who took over and the decisions that were made then, what would you have done differently?

[Greg Renfrew]

Well, first of all, I would never have removed all the people that had all the institutional knowledge, including the founder. That doesn't mean that you can't put the founder in a different role. But I think to not talk to the founder, listen to the founder, understand the founder's original vision and all the events that led to where you are, I think that's just, that was unwise. I think the poorest decision in my opinion was trying to take a purpose driven, community based business that really where people really believed in what they were doing and were emotionally attached, both the products and the purpose and the advocacy efforts, et cetera, and try to turn it into a traditional big box corporate beauty brand and use an old school beauty playbook to meet the needs of the consumer. And when you take an industry disruptor and you try to take a old school beauty or any industry, it just doesn't work, right?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

No, I've seen that as well at goop, like people coming in and trying to apply an existing playbook or one that worked for them at a previous place. And I think it's very rare that that works. I think every brand is so unique. I mean, unless it's, you know, literally just like, the same factory in China making the same things. And, you know, it's just how much money you're putting behind something. But if it's a real brand, you know, it requires, I think, a degree of contemplation and adaptation and flexibility. You have to always create a new playbook, and I think you have to always create a new playbook for yourself at every iteration of your own business. Right. Because markets change and algorithms change and consumers change, et cetera. So it gets foreclosed. You watch your business that you founded kind of fall apart, and then you get the brilliant idea that you're gonna buy it back.

[Greg Renfrew]

Yeah, brilliant or crazy?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yes. Or both.

[Greg Renfrew]

You know, So I was on spring break when this all went down, and it was sort of like over the weekend. Thursday was the draft dead date. We were gonna go into full liquidation on the Thursday and on the weekend. And say this without crying. I remember my daughter Georgie saying, mom, like, you just cannot let this die. She was using her, like, last vitamin C serum that we had. And she said, mommy, you've worked so hard. You just can't let this die. You just can't, Mom. And my son Jamo, had been trying to sell the fragrance that they put into the market. And he was. I mean, my son literally only posts, like, lax things in his friend's sports things, but he was. He was buying it and trying to sell it to his friend's mom. I mean, it was just like. And they just said, you can't let it die. And I just thought about all those women, you know, that had worked so hard to help build it. But I was scared. I mean, I was petrified. You know, do we have enough money? Can we afford to do this? Et cetera. And then I got a phone call on the Sunday night from my lawyer, who said, the banks have just called, and there is no deal. You are the only possible deal. Do you want to buy the company? They want you as the founder to take this back. They believe in what you did. It's actually quite an extraordinary story.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Wow.

[Greg Renfrew]

I mean, I really respect the guy from bank of America that called to say this. This woman built something special. Like, we want her to have it back. We're gonna. We're gonna lose our money either way, basically. But we. We think she deserves. It wasn't just bank of America. It was J.P. morgan. It was a syndicated. It was syndicated debt. But, but either, but anyway, they all, they all came to me and said through my lawyer, we want her to have it back if she wants it. And so I sat down with Mark and my kids and, you know, I was just like, oh, like, can I do this? Like, it's so scary. But we decided to do it as a family, you know, and then I did it. And then I literally had like a full blown, sobbing, hysterical, like, panic attack, like, two days later, like, oh my gosh. Like, oh, my gosh, what have I done? Because, you know, there was so much. We bought the assets, but there was all this debt that had been on the business. And, you know, I mean, there was just so much going on. I thought, oh, my gosh, I mean, like, what have I done? I mean, I was, I do remember sitting on the floor at my house with my family and with Lindsey Dahl, who had been one of my partners. I mean, just hysterically sobbing, thinking, why

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

did I do this?

[Greg Renfrew]

Yeah, why did I do this? Like, I'm really. I was genuinely scared because the complexity of the business and what I had taken on and what was I going to do with it? I mean, it just was. I was petrified, genuinely petrified.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

So take me through. What was the next step and the subsequent step.

[Greg Renfrew]

So, the next step. So that was. I think I purchased the, the business on the 19th of April of last year, and I made the really difficult decision on May 1 to shut the business down. Well, I made the decision maybe the day or two before, and I had to let go of all the associates of the company. There was no money left, so there was no severance. I mean, I had to tell all the women who built their lives with us that, that we were shutting down. And, you know, it was. And then I had to, of course, receive the backlash from that, which was hard. And, you know, you've. I don't know how you deal with it, but it's hard to be publicly, you know, just, you know, because it hurts. And you, and you, you're trying to do the right thing and it's, you know, you're disappointing everyone. But I felt like the only way that I could be, the only way forward was to let it die and to start a new company and to begin anew. I just, it had to all be a reminder, reimagined. As I said earlier. It was. It wasn't working anymore. And the complexity was extreme. I mean, and the cost of trying to turn it around would have been. Would have so far exceeded anything that I could raise in any short period of time when it would have been tens and tens and tens and tens of millions of dollars. And I. That just wasn't going to happen.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right, right.

[Greg Renfrew]

And so I made the difficult. But in retrospect, I genuinely think the right decision just to shut the whole thing down, as hard as it was at that time.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And then did you retain the formulas and the product? Like, how did you.

[Greg Renfrew]

I bought the assets, so I was able to retain the formulas. We had inventory that we were able to sell down, which was great. You know, we got locked out of our office immediately. So there's all the stuff that. Because we owed money for rent, but actually, technically you're not supposed to do that in the state of California, but they locked us out, so I never could go back in and get anything. So I had kind of what I had digitally, but. But I was able to get. You know, we had our customer database and we had our formulations and we had some of the old assets.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

So did you. Did you set out. Did you go back to your comands and start over with the formulas? Did you.

[Greg Renfrew]

Every single one of them. Well, there had been this huge skew proliferation. And then also all these new contract manufacturing partners, because of course, mine weren't the right ones or whatever. So, you know, he had added all these other ones in. And, you know, I think one of the things I've learned in business is you. You want to be really important to a few people, not just not important to a lot.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yep.

[Greg Renfrew]

Is when things go wrong, which inevitably they do, you want to have that relationship. So I actually went back, but I had to renegotiate every single thing because there was an inordinate amount of debt. And so it was the same conversation over and over again.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And where are you getting the capital to do this at this point?

[Greg Renfrew]

So I. So I put in a bunch of my own money and then I raised a little bit of money and from some of my old investors and then one new person. I mean, I literally did all this in about 48 hours.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Wow.

[Greg Renfrew]

And then I started calling the manufacturing partners and I said, look, this is. We're in a shit situation. I am so sorry you're in this position. I don't take responsibility exactly for where we are, but here's the deal. I would like to move forward with you. I'm going to greatly reduce the number of. I'm going to dramatically reduce the number of SKUs and the number of people with whom we work. And if you want to play ball, you're going to have to work with me because I don't have the money to pay you right now, and I'm not going to ever have the money to pay you. So it was an actually incredible testament, I think, to the brand we built and to how amazing some of these companies are. I mean, there are a lot of companies out there, like, you know, and I. And you know what I'm gonna say who they were, because, you know, people don't also in our industry ever talk about everything's a secret. Right?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Greg Renfrew]

And, like, all these guys came to the table and they're like, we got you, Greg.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Wow.

[Greg Renfrew]

I mean, it was amazing. Like, I literally, when we launched, like, I was so appreciative of what they did, and that just shows the power of relationship in people. And because there's no way we would have been able to do this without all these companies, because they were losing their shirts too, because they put all this money they were owed all this money they had, you know, batched up all this product that could no longer be sold. And it was. It was hard, but they were amazing. People were really amazing to us. I mean, I. And so many of my old teammates that were no longer with the company, like, they came back and they said, we're gonna help you. And all of you guys, like, everyone rallied. It was. Sorry. It was just super nice to see people rally around you when you've gone through a difficult time. Because. Because it also just saw, like, the power of women supporting each other. You know, it's been quite a journey, but I feel so appreciative of the outpouring of love from anyone from the, you know, the warehousing people to the amazing. Not dhl, they weren't. They were terrible.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Well, you deserve it. And I think what you built and what you're building now, really extraordinary companies. And so women positive and in so many, you know, from so many directions. So was there a decision around not keeping the name Beauty Counter and going to counter? Tell me about that.

[Greg Renfrew]

You know, I really felt that the only way to enter the market again was. You and I both know this. You know, the market is. Well, first of all, the beauty market in general is completely saturated. And now there are a lot of million brands claiming to be clean. Whether they are or not is a whole other story. But, yeah, I think that I felt that the only way path forward was to reimagine everything from the packaging to the branding to certain of the formulations. Of course, we have some of our Tried and true favorites to the business model. Like, I didn't. You know, it's 2025. I launched in 2013. What was innovative in 2013 is. It's, like, antiquated today.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Greg Renfrew]

So I really. I gave myself last summer to take the time to think. And I said to everybody, look, I'm. You guys are. We have a small team. You're going to get paid, but I don't really know what we're going to do. I don't have a plan right now. Like, you know, I didn't have a strategy.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

So brave.

[Greg Renfrew]

Which is so weird. But, I mean, I had no strategy because I literally made the decision in 48 hours. So I said to everybody and to myself, like, I'm gonna afford myself the next couple months to think on this and to talk to people. I went out, you know, I talked to you. I talked to. I called in a whole bunch of people like, you were super helpful. I called, you know, Bobbi Brown and got her advice on how she started her new brand. Whatever. I just was talking to people that I cared about that had done different things in and out of the industry and tried to gather as much information and then made the decision, looked at where I felt we had an opportunity to come back into the market.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Greg Renfrew]

One of the things I felt strongly about was that we were always counter to the industry and Beauty Counter was named that name because it was the intended double entendre of going counter to the beauty industry. But I thought it was also limiting, and there was positive and negative biases towards that name. And I thought just, you know, counter felt right. It felt right. And we all felt really good about it.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

It's a great name.

[Greg Renfrew]

And I just thought. And then, you know, we. We reimagined all the packaging because I felt like it needed to be fresh and new and more cohesive. And I didn't like where it had gone.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Greg Renfrew]

And then I just really looked at where's the white space? And I think one of the things that I felt strongly as I looked at the products we sold and to whom we sold them. And as a woman who's well into her 50s now, I think that older women are largely ignored by the industry, but yet we're loyal. We have the money to spend, and we care about our health and we care about. We are making more conscious choices for the most part. And so what it. One of the things that had gone wrong with the brand was they're trying to be everything to everyone. And so I really decided I was going to leave. That never works. Lean towards that older demographic graphic. Because that was really who we had in the first place. I mean, yes, we had younger people using the product, but in general, she was sort of 35 up.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Greg Renfrew]

And maybe even 40 up. And so I thought, why not really lean into her and give her something that she's going to love and not worry about being everything to everyone right now.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

So what are you doing differently now this time, this go around?

[Greg Renfrew]

Well, I'll tell you one thing I'm doing. I'm really focused on profitability because I don't ever want to worry about money again. Because you and I both know that with, like, you know, at the time, you know, when we were all building businesses, like over the last decade, but that until a couple years ago, it was always growth at all costs. All they wanted you to do was grow until they didn't. Until they wanted you to be really profitable. And that's not just like my private. That was. That's across the industry.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Greg Renfrew]

So one thing I really, really focus on, and money is not my strong suit. Ask my husband. I like to spend money, but it's like really being very careful in the choices that I'm making. Really focusing on new and in technology that's easier for people to use. Way less SKUs. I mean, I think when I came back in, we had something like 235 SKUs, and now we've launched with 19. And by the end of the year, with color cosmetics, we'll have about 31 to 35. I think that's the right amount.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Greg Renfrew]

Let's do a few things.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Well. Right.

[Greg Renfrew]

I think I'm doing that differently. I'm not letting some. Which was happening. Not looking at what other people doing. I keep saying, like, guys, we have to build business on our own merits and not copycat other brands and whatever. What can we do? Well, what can we do? Really well. And I've said to the team, if you don't feel, and I have the confidence to say this now, if you don't feel so strongly about that product that you'd literally be willing to risk your job over it. And I'm not saying your job is at risk, but I want you to feel that strongly about the products we're putting into the market, then let's not do it.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Greg Renfrew]

So I think that's different, and I think I'm different. I mean, you've known me for a long time and you've seen me in insecure moments and really insecure moments. I was really insecure for a couple years after Beauty Counter. When I was out, I didn't know who I was. I remember showing up at an event gathering that you and I were at in Utah. And I. I mean, I remember this so distinctly. Like, you gave me a hug and then you quickly turned someone else. And I was like, am I not important anymore? I mean, it's crazy how your mind can go there, but you start to feel this way. And so I feel calm. I mean, not every day, but I feel calm. I feel conviction.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Greg Renfrew]

I feel high level of humility. But I also have confidence that we can do this. It's not going to be easy, and it may be a lot smaller, but I want to reimagine the business model, the distribution. I want to meet the needs of today's consumer. And I really want to uplift women as I do it.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Greg Renfrew]

And advertise it, you know, for women.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

That's incredible.

[Greg Renfrew]

We'll see.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

It's amazing to hear you talk about it. Are you going to use the same. Are you going to use consultants again?

[Greg Renfrew]

Yes. We named them brand partners this time. Partners we're not. People aren't building teams anymore because that became complicated for a whole number of reasons. But I think that we really do believe in community based commerce. I believe the brands and communities are kind of one in the same.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Greg Renfrew]

I mean, GOOP is a community.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Greg Renfrew]

You know, better than anyone. I mean, it's. It's not. I mean, yeah, you're a brand, but. But it's about values and it's about what they're seeking to understand and learn. And they look to you and they look to your brand for that. And I think similarly, people knew what we stood for. They knew that. That we were walking the walk and we were transparent and they wanted to associate. And so I think, I believe that, you know, the most influential people are always your friends and women listen to other women. So I do believe in that business model, but I wanted it also to be reimagined and I also wanted to have like, some of our own stores again. And we're so super excited to be launching in GOOP in a couple of days because that partnership's always been really great for us.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah, we're excited, too. Thank you.

[Greg Renfrew]

Yeah. No, I'd. So, you know, it's funny because I. Over the years, people used to say, are you guys competitive with goop? And I said, why do you always say that? I feel like we're alibis completely and we're all trying to help each other. And we've shared so, so openly things. There are a lot of brands out there that want to keep their things secret. I'm the opposite. I want to work with other brands because there's so much room for all of us to be successful and all of us to help women along the way.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Agree. And tell me how the brand partners reacted, because I remember there was a lot of upset like you touched on before when you sort of collapsed the model and the business. So are some of those women coming back into the fold?

[Greg Renfrew]

Yes, and some are not.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And some are not.

[Greg Renfrew]

And that's okay. And, you know, I tried to be really respectful at a really difficult time, especially to those women who had built large teams and really relied on the income. I mean, it was a very difficult conversation. But I did try to be crystal clear to say the opportunity that you have today will be different. And if this is your, you know, if you are relying on this income, I encourage you to consider other companies. And we actually switch. Spoke to other companies in the direct sales world to try to help create soft landings for other people. Because, you know, one of the challenging things when you build through independent consultants is it's not so easy. It's not like the corporate world where you can just easily just go from one thing to the next and get paid the same amount of money. It doesn't work that way. And so those were difficult conversations. But I do think that we have. It was funny. I was looking. I did. I did an analysis. We have a hundred. I think it's like 120 people that have shopped with us from the very first day in March of 13 of the old company are still shopping with us now. It's not a ton of people, but, wow. It's a long time to shop the same brand. And I think that there are a lot of. There are thousands of women that. We chose to limit the number of people who could start because I wanted to work out the kinks and. Right. And co create some of it with them. But we do have quite a few people that were representing us before and that are back and are really passionate. I bumped into one this morning, and she send. I'm just so happy you're back. Thank you. Because it meant a lot to a lot of people.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Absolutely. Yeah. What. I mean, what you built was incredible, and it is incredible. I feel very bullish about this. This beautiful second incarnation. I hope so. So as we're on the Goop podcast, you know, I want to talk to you a little bit about kind of maintaining sanity, maintaining energy, drawing boundaries. I think it's so difficult as a founder, and I have to say, I think not to pat myself on the back, but I have been working in therapy a lot around this issue like this. I think we all do get so burnout. We are laden with so much responsibility. And it's very, very hard, I think, when there's so much on the line to draw boundaries for yourself or create 20 minutes in your day to walk outside or whatever the case may be. So have you consistently found yourself throughout your career in stages of burnout? Are you in one now? Because you're literally back at square run right now. And how are you approaching that? So unsustainable. We know how stress impacts. You know, you talk about not putting chemicals on your skin. Stress is as dangerous. So how are you approaching that now?

[Greg Renfrew]

I think that I don't feel. I don't feel burnout right now, but I am feeling a little overwhelmed.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yep. Because how do you define burnout?

[Greg Renfrew]

Well, I think for me, burnout is when I feel apathy, like I'm apathetic. And I feel like it's worth anyone and everyone in my life and my work, where I just feel like I don't. It's not even an energy thing so much as it's just, you're done. I feel indifferent.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Greg Renfrew]

And I can feel it in my family. My family can feel it. My husband can feel it. My work is just kind of, eh, meh. So I think that one of the things. Because the majority of the people that are working for Counter, I had worked with before, and not all, but a lot of them are, and we promised ourselves this time around that we wouldn't work at the frenetic pace that we were working at in Beauty Counter, because it was. And, you know, people used to always say it's a marathon, not a sprint. But yet when you have the pressure of institutional investors, which, by the way, everyone does, and this isn't specific to any one institutional investor, the pressure's on 27. And so I think that I have worked really, really hard recently on myself for the last couple of years and on learning how to confidently say no to things that I used to. And again, I think some of that's because I'm more secure than I used to be, but also knowing what really matters. And when. When I was out of work and I was no longer the founder and CEO of this beauty company that people knew about or didn't know about, I. I found that I didn't know who I was. And, and I had to lean hard on my friends and my family. And it reminds you that that is really what matters, right? Is yourself, your family, your friends, etc. So.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And your, your inner life, your relationship with yourself, 100%.

[Greg Renfrew]

And you know, I, I feel for the first time in a very long time, very at peace with who I am. I feel really good. And that's taken me a long time. And so I think that right now, I'm saying, I think when you talk about creating boundaries, because you do, I mean, you do, you're like, you guys are out of my house, like, we're having dinner, done, and we all give you shit about it. But like, the reality is like, you have to create these boundaries. I remember when I was running beauty counter before, I used to say to people, they would meet me at school and the mom, some mom very kindly would say, oh, you're Georgie and I. Or, you know, Phoebe's, whatever, we're in the same class. Do you want to meet for coffee? In the beginning, I would say yes. And then I would blow it off, blow it off, blow it off. And then I'd finally meet and I'd be resentful because I didn't have time. And then I got to the point where I would just say, you're gonna think I'm really rude, but I'm just gonna tell you it's not gonna happen because I can only focus on my family and on my business and on my existing friendships right now. And I'm so sorry, I don't mean to be rude. I just don't think at this moment in my time, I have the capacity to take on a new friendship. So I can tell you that we'd have coffee, but we won't.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Good for you.

[Greg Renfrew]

People were taken aback at the beginning, but I got comfortable with it because I. And I've also gotten comfortable with saying, no, I can't talk to your daughters, sisters, boyfriends, friends, girlfriend that wants to think about what they might want to do in beauty on Saturday afternoon. You know, there's only so many hours in the day.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I know.

[Greg Renfrew]

So I am trying to be thoughtful in my choices of how I'm spending my time. Work wise, be as efficient as humanly possible with my work hours, far more decisive. I'm not second guessing myself. I remember one of the people that worked for you at one point in life, she worked for me. You and then me again at different points of time. And she said one of the things I loved about Gwyneth Is she's super decisive. And I'm trying to be very decisive, clear in my communication. Because if you're not. If you're indecisive or you're trying to keep everyone happy or you're blabbing on in a meeting like it's such a time suck.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Greg Renfrew]

And then I'm trying to really focus on what I'm eating and putting it on my body. I exercise all the time, I really think, releasing endorphins that, you know, I'm trying to be careful my. My consumption of alcohol and sugar bees. These things all add up.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

They do. Especially at our age.

[Greg Renfrew]

They really do.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Greg Renfrew]

You know, we've talked about this. Whether it's menopause, working fatigue, it's like. And trying to be present and. And I'm not very good about this. And I'm trying to get better about this. Like putting my phone down and looking my daughter in the eye and Georgie especially be like, mom, get off that phone. But, you know, just because we're addicted to these things, so they were built to be addictive.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I know, right?

[Greg Renfrew]

But it's like putting it away and just being fully present for dinner or whatever that walk is with your friend. You have to be.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

You have to. I think the quality of your life starts to erode so much if you're, you know, and you hijack yourself, like, with busyness, and you're not present, you're not in your body, and then your body starts to bark at you, like you're not listening to yourself. It's a slippery slope.

[Greg Renfrew]

It is. I also think that I've learned to calm down when the shit hits the fan.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Greg Renfrew]

We were going to launch a couple weeks ago. We launched on June 25, and one of our top, newest, most exciting products fell out of stability. And for people that don't know the beauty industry, that means, like, the oil was separating from the lotion and it was making it a little bit runny. And if you was perfectly safe for health. But it wasn't the experience that we had wanted for the customer. And the old me would have flipped a switch, freaked out, and I was like, okay, well, what's plan B?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right?

[Greg Renfrew]

So got. So we sent out an email to all of our customers saying, sorry, some of you have already bought it. It's not going to be here for a couple months. It is what it is. We're being transparent and not allowing myself to go crazy over things that I cannot control because that creates so much stress in your body and in your entire community. Or your team, that is unnecessary because stuff is always going to go wrong. Every single day something goes wrong.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. It's sort of how you are reacting to the problem at hand. Is everything right. And I think when you get to where you are as a founder, you know that ultimately it's going to be okay. And even if it's not okay, it's okay. Like, look at everything you've gone through and, and here you are today, having just launched, relaunched this beautiful brand and it's okay. And it's going to be okay.

[Greg Renfrew]

Yeah, I agree. And I think the other thing that I do think is, and I don't mean to play the mother female card, but I do think we hold ourselves to these standards that oftentimes are just unrealistic. And what I mean by that is, and I used to say this to the women when they were selling, you know what? I actually send my kids with lunchboxes once with literally nothing in them. I just screwed up that day, you know, and there are days when I'm having a huge fight with my husband and I don't feel like going to work and I'm tired or I look like shit.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Greg Renfrew]

And we don't have to present perfection to the world. Like, the world is not perfect. We're not perfect. Mothering is not perfect. Marriage is not perfect. Life is not perfect. And I think somehow we feel as women that we have to do it all perfectly, all the time and we just don't. And I always say, like, you can have it all in life, just can't always have it all in the same day or even in the same month or even in the same year. And there are moments in time where you're going to lean into your kids or you're going to lean into your spouse, you're going to lean into your work. It's okay. Yeah, it's okay. It doesn't have to be perfect all the time. It's never going to be perfect. And us trying to strive for perfection, if there's one thing I can do as I'm 18 aging, is try to help younger women know that, like, it's okay not to be perfect.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Greg Renfrew]

You're never going to be.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I know.

[Greg Renfrew]

And the beauty industry is, is setting a standard up there, that, that is just unrealistic.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Greg Renfrew]

Because they're air touched and they're, they've got, you know, different filters. We're talking about social media and, you know, and it's causing so much harm to women thinking that they're, you know, this. They have to be this one. They can't beat that because that person actually isn't that either.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

No, it's true. And it's. I think it's causing a lot of anxiety in the younger generations and a lot of body dysmorphia. I mean, I think we obviously had all that in our generation, too, but now it's, like, on steroids, because all day, every day. And as you say, they're designed to be addictive. And so much of the message in social media is like, you're not enough. Like, you buy this and you could be that.

[Greg Renfrew]

One of the things that we said internally that we are committed to is not creating problems that our products will solve.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Greg Renfrew]

I mean, that's what we do. Right? Oh, you've got wrinkles. Let us help us. You with your fine line and wrinkles. Well, is having a wrinkle a problem?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right?

[Greg Renfrew]

No, it's just part of the aging process, and it's inevitable.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Greg Renfrew]

And I think that. And, you know, there was that whole. Is it America Ferrero that did the whole line in Barbies. Like, you have to be this, but not this and this. It's just like, we need to, as women, embrace where we are in life, pump each other up. And yes, beauty can make you feel more confident, more sexy or more fun. It's fun, but it doesn't mean that you're not good enough as you are.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

That's right. We've got to give ourselves a bit more grace, 100%.

[Greg Renfrew]

And that goes women to women, too. It's not just beauty industry, and it's not. We often will say, well, the men. No, we do it to each other. And we. And one of the things that you're so. You are so incredible at, Gwyneth, is pumping up and lifting up other women and other brands and other founders. Like, you've had such an enormous impact on the lives of so many people. And not because you're an actor, not because you've started goop even. Yes, all those things. But it's. It's about you lifting up other women without asking for anything in return. It's. It's something that if more people were doing this, the world would just be a better place because we need more women empowered, and we need more women to have the confidence that they have a voice that matters. And I applaud you and appreciate you for doing that. Even just having me on this podcast and having me talk about my story, I hope my story helps other women know that they can do it, and it's going to be hard, but they've got this.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah. I mean, what. What more can you say? That's perfect.

[Greg Renfrew]

Thank you for doing this.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

You're the best.

[Greg Renfrew]

I really appreciate it. And I. And I do mean that. I really, I have to say, like, this. The last couple weeks have been super emotional. And I think that, you know, when. When you posted stuff, it's like, it meant a lot to me because I didn't ask you to do that. And. And it just. It means a lot because I. I try in my daily. I have to. Like, if you always ask me, like, why'd you post about someone else's beauty brand? Like, because I actually use the product

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

and I love it.

[Greg Renfrew]

Like, why would I not.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right, Right.

[Greg Renfrew]

Like, why are we not helping each other?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Greg Renfrew]

But, you know, not. Not enough people are, so.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

It's true. Well, I'm. I'm so. I'm so happy that you did this. Thank you. Thanks for tuning in. This has been a presentation of Cadence 13 Studios. I hope you'll listen, follow, rate, and review all of our episodes, which are available for free on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts.