B (6:16)

Do you think that, you know, because I've always been sort of stunned by that in my own life anecdotally that, you know, and I didn't attribute it necessarily to the lack of a, of a male role model because you know, boys also who have a double parent home, who experience trauma, they seem to, you know, girls kind of, in my perception, they sort of barrel through it better. You know, it's sort of like, I don't know if it's a pain tolerance thing or if boys are just more sensitive. I know, you know, in my own house I have a 19 year old boy who's inordinately sensitive. And I just wonder, is that something that are boys? You know, it's like we, we assign and project this, this idea that boys are supposed to be tough and, and withstand, you know, I don't know, grit and punches in the face and all this stuff. But like, are they more sensitive when they're little, do you think, than girls?

A (7:14)

There's just no getting around it. They're emotionally and mentally the weaker sex. And just there's just a bunch of data to show that. I'll give you a really frightening statistic. Two 15 year olds, a 15 year old boy, a 15 year old girl, both sexually molested. Neither crime is less or more heinous than the other, but the boy is ten times more likely to kill himself later in life. And I'm not suggesting that that makes it any less awful. Child abuse for girls, they don't know why it might be one. There's some theories that. One, because women have to endure pregnancy, menstruation, that quite frankly they're just tougher neurologically, or quite frankly, that they've just taken so much abuse, they've become more resilient. But boys have a tendency just not to recover as quickly from trauma or the absence of a male role model than girls. And there's this. There's a lot of things young men are less likely to ask for help you have. In my opinion, the elephant in the room is Big Tech is attached shareholder value to sequestering people from the relationships. Every minute they can get you to spend on your screen and away from other relationships, they add tens of billions of dollars in shareholder value. And they're so good at what they do, they're tapping into an immature male brain. The male brain doesn't catch up to a woman's until the age of 25. Specifically, the part of the brain that knows how to regulate the pursuit of dopa, you know, stop playing video games and start studying. That part of a man's brain doesn't. Is 18 months behind a girl's until he's 25. So two seniors in high school, the girl, if she's competing against a boy who's a senior, she's basically competing against a 10th grade girl. So seven out of 10 high school valedictorians are girls. Now, college attendance is 60, 40 female to male, and it's probably two to one, female grads to male grads because boys are dropping out at a greater rate. So there's. There's just a lot of economic, sociological, and biological factors that are getting in the way. And even, and let me say it, I think the K through 12 school system in America is biased against boys. Think about the behaviors we encourage in school. Sit still, be organized, raise your hand, be a pleaser. You just described a girl. A boy is twice as likely to be suspended on a behavior adjusted basis. Same exact infraction. If it's a boy sitting in the principal's office who's twice as likely to be suspended, he's five times as likely to be suspended if he's a black boy. So 70 to 80% of K12 teachers are women. And it's just natural that they would have a tendency to empathize with and champion people who remind them of themselves. So a lack of male role models, Even K through 12, I think, is making it more difficult for boys to thrive. So you're talking about biological setbacks. They're Just not as mature. You're talking about a society that's taken money from young people, which I think has disproportionately hurt young men who are still more evaluated by society based on their economic viability. You know that joke that Beyonce could work at McDonald's and marry Jay Z, but the opposite is not true. Women, I never heard that. Women are disproportionately and unfairly evaluated by society based on their aesthetics. Women, men are disproportionately and unfairly evaluated based on their economic viability. So when young people in general don't have the same economic opportunities that our generation had. You're younger than me, but when I applied, I'm staying in LA right now. I went to UCLA. When I applied, the admissions rate was 74%. Now it's 9%. And just the cost of housing, the cost of education has skyrocketed. And so when you have less economically viable young people, it's hard on all of them. But it's especially hard on young men because relationships, romantic relationships are the new luxury item. And that is four out of five men in the upper quintile of household income will get married. Only one in five men in the lowest quintile. So we don't like to talk about this, but men mate socioeconomically horizontally and down. Women horizontally and up. And when the pool of horizontal up keeps shrinking, there's just less household formation. And without relationships, men suffer more than women. There's this myth, gwyneth, of the 30 year old woman who never found romantic love. And she's this commercial where she's in a big sweater in her windowsill and it's raining outside and she has cats. And it's this crime, this huge tragedy that she didn't find romantic love. Well, the thing is, for the most part, Lisa's just fine. Men come off the tracks when they don't have a relationship. Widows are happier after their husband dies. Widowers are less happy after their wife dies. A woman in a relationship does live longer. She lives two to four years longer. But a man lives four to seven years longer. So the reality is men need relationships more than women. And one of the things that triggers people, I say, I think a man should always pay for dates. And the reason why is a woman's fertility window is shorter. A man will benefit more from a relationship than a woman. The downside of sex is much greater for a woman than a man. And I think there's an asymmetry in value. Her time, her expression of interest in A romantic relationship is more valuable than the man's. And every mammal has a courtship process. And so what I tell my boys is when you're in the company of women, you pay. And so I do think that there's been a certain androgynization of the genders. And unfortunately, we've done a great job of convincing ourselves that it's the other gender's fault. I think the worst thing that happened on the right, they recognize the problem, but unfortunately, their answer is to take non whites and women back to the 50s. That's not the answer. And they blame men's dissent on women's ascent. That couldn't be further from the truth. Women's ascent has supported the economy. It's the reason we were in World War II is we put them in factories. So men need to be much, in my opinion, supportive of our sisters and our mother's progress and do nothing to get in the way of that. But at the same time, I think there is a certain feeling from a lot of young women that these boys don't have problems. They are the problem. And if they were just more in touch with their emotions. The far right conflates masculinity with coarseness and cruelty. And I think the far left says, act more like a woman. And I don't think that's the answer either. So there is. Call it a masculinity crisis, call you what you want, but young men are just really struggling in the United States right now.

B (13:32)

Yeah. I just wonder then how, you know, because it is sort of an incendiary topic. Right? This. Like, I agree with you that I think. And I don't know if it's because I'm from an older generation, but I do think that there are certain, like, archetypal values that kind of become pillars in. In a house. Right. I'm talking about, like, between a heterosexual couple. So I'm not trying to, like, leave anybody out, but we're just sort of talking about, you know, and I think that, you know, now I'm sort of trying to track this young generation's idea of. Of masculinity, like, and. And watching it become sort of, I don't know, something that, like how people say, you know, there's toxic masculinity, which, you know, you talk about in your book. But I do agree with you that I think there are certain attributes of. Of masculinity, like archetypal masculine traits that actually help to establish like, and set a woman free. Like, for example, I feel more powerful and in My like feminine strength when, when my husband is protective. Right. So it's like that to me is an important, important dynamic. But I do feel in here that there's, you know, it's almost like culture is trying to wrestle with this idea of masculinity and how it pertains to femininity and all these different permutations. Do you know what I'm saying?

A (15:05)

Well, just hearing you talk about this, you're choosing your words very carefully because it's sort of like one false move. And you can come across as not being empathetic to the struggles women still face, or worse, being discriminatory against the 5% of the population that's non binary. And the first thing I think we need to acknowledge is that empathy is not a zero sum game. Gay marriage didn't hurt. Heteronormative marriage. Civil rights didn't hurt white people. We can still acknowledge the huge challenges women still face. They go to 73 cents on the dollar when they have kids. Professionally, men stay at 100 cents on the dollar. So. So we haven't figured out a way to maintain women's professional trajectory when they decide to evolve or keep the species alive. Girls are really struggling with social media. A lot of self cutting's up 60% since social went on mobile. So it's not a zero sum game. What you're talking about is even dangerous because I believe for me, and this is difficult to try and I think everybody needs a code. Some people get it from the religion, some people get it from church, some people get it from the military, their family. But it's hard to make all these decisions every day in a world that's throwing so many things at you every day. And I'd like to think that masculinity can serve as a code or an aspirational vision of masculinity for young men who appear to be struggling right now. They're not going to church, not going to work as much. Where do they find that code? And simply if I try to distill the aspirational form of masculinity down to three legs of the stool, it's the following. One, being a provider. I think in a capitalist society you have to be economically viable. And sometimes that means getting out of the way of your partner and being more supportive because she happens to be better at that whole money thing. I think that's a form of masculinity. But you should assume at the outset that you might at some point need to take economic responsibility for your household because your Partner may have to gestate and produce children and take time off. And also our society still will evaluate you based on your economic viability. I'm not saying that's the way the world should be. It's the way the world is. And something we don't like to talk about is that generally speaking, women are less attracted to men who are not making more money than them or as much. That's changing. 14% of households are now the woman's the primary breadwinner. But when the woman in the relationship starts making more money than the man, the likelihood of divorce doubles. The use of ed drugs triples. Now some of that is because of the expectations the man puts on himself and his self esteem goes down. And also to be fair, divorce rates have skyrocketed in the last 40 years. But a lot of that is, is a function of a good thing. And that is women no longer feel economically indentured to men. But you also have this situation where men are not keeping pace with women in terms of what we call emotional labor. And that is while women's economic ascent has been up and to the right, men's ascent around kind of domestic and emotional labor has not kept pace. So a lot of women are just kind of waking up and going, okay, you're no longer the provider and quite frankly, boss, I'm still doing the majority of the stuff around the house. I'm out. And so a lot of this is.

B (18:10)

What do you attribute that decline to like of the men's, you know, emotional and economic viability?

A (18:19)

Well, on the economic side, it's a lot of the traditional on ramps for a man to have a good middle class living, you know, manufacturing jobs, A lot of those jobs have been outsourced. So remember in high school we used to have wood, metal and auto shop. There was a lot of these guys, they just weren't going to go to college. They didn't care about class, they didn't like it, but they could fix your car. And I just knew a bunch of these guys, they were the guys that played hooky from school and went home and picked up, you know, put their Trans Am on blocks and knew how to fix, knew how to fix shit. Vocational work, auto, metal and woodshop are gone now we've replaced it with computer science, hoping all of our kids end up being Mark Zuckerberg.

B (18:57)

But why did we do that? Like Europe still has vocational schools.

A (19:01)

The honest answer is I think we. America has become a place where we used to love the unremarkable and now it's about how do we create a super class of billionaires in the top 1%. And the problem is our optimism is our superpower, but it's also our Achilles heel because we all believe our kid is going to be in that 1%. And I can prove to each of US mathematically the 99% of our children are not in the top 1%. So to your point, 11% of LinkedIn profiles in Germany and the UK say Apprentice. It's 3% in the US we just don't have an apprenticeship culture. We've also shamed vocational jobs. And it's too bad because there's a lot of them in the mainstream economy. There's, you know, if you can. There are all these stories about kids in the Midwest taking auto shop and learning how to install H Vac energy efficient heaters and they're making $80,000 their junior year in high school. But we have shamed vocational work. We have said in the eyes of Gen Z, being a barista is higher prestige than being a pipe welder. And meanwhile the welder makes 120 grand a year. So we've sort of said surely that

B (20:04)

will change with AI. Right? I mean if those middle jobs are getting replaced, like do you think the premium will be placed on those jobs again?

A (20:12)

Well, at some point you need them so much, especially with our immigration policy the way it is now that they'll, money will be thrown at these jobs that I mean, for example, we have this path and I don't know, I'm, I'm part of this. My kid is applying to college. I'll be heartbroken if he doesn't go to an elite four year anniversary. I'm not proud to say that I will be heartbroken if he doesn't go to an elite university. And the reality is 2/3 of our kids don't even graduate from college. So we've created this aspirational path for them and then if it doesn't happen, they feel shame and the parents feel shame. So a lot of it is society needs to readapt and say, okay, being able to, you know, Fix EVs is a really good job and we need to have more training and a more obvious path for vocational and trade schools because young men tend to enjoy, and I don't want to say be better at, but enjoy working outside and with their hands and using some of their physical strength and deploying that, but being a provider. 1, 2. The whole point of prosperity is to move to protection. It breaks my heart to read about women not Feeling safe on the subway. And the reason they will give is there's so many men on the subway. And I've always said, well, you know, I try to do these things. What does a man do? I've said, if you want women to be attracted to you, the ultimate skill is to make them feel safe around you. And that is, you want a woman to feel protected, you want to be in good shape, you want. Your first instinct needs to be one of protection. And that's not just physical protection. It's when people are talking critically about behind their back, your first default should be to say nothing or to defend them. You may not think we should have laws demanding a third bathroom, as I don't believe that. I do not believe it made any sense to let a transgender woman show up to an NC2A swim meet who was 6 foot 5, born a male. At the same time, when you see a community being demonized for political points, your first instinct should be to protection. The most masculine jobs, firefighter, military, cop, what do they do? They protect. So I think this idea that you're the guy that breaks up fights at bars, you don't start them, you're the guy that defends your country and talks it up, doesn't criticize it. The whole point, I think, of prosperity is to move to protection. And one of the things I find so disappointing. Gwyneth, about our current male role models. Young men are always gonna look up to the president and the wealthiest man in the world. They're the most powerful person and the person that's won capitalism. And I think that some of our male leaders right now have just entirely skipped the protection part. They are more about. They've conflated masculinity with coarseness and cruelty. And quite frankly, I just think they're terrible role models for young men. And then the final thing that gets more pushback is or more controversy is procreator. And that is we have pathologized young men's desire to have romantic and sexual relationships. And I think that's a feature, not a bug. I think wanting to have sex or establish a relationship, that fire is actually very productive when channeled correctly. Makes you want to work out, makes you want to dress better, makes you want to smell better, makes you want to have a kindness practice, makes you want to be able to demonstrate excellence, have a plan. Wanting to have sex should turn you and usually does turn you into a better man. And I worry with the plethora of synthetic relationships, specifically the emergence of synthetic porn, that a man's mojo to go out and make the approach. 80% of women still say they want the man to initiate romantic interest, the ability to endure rejection, the ability to demonstrate a plan and excellence. I think all of these things make you a better man. And I worry that I agree that men are pursuing a frictionless form of relationships where they don't learn the skills, they don't learn the ability to endure rejection. So I think that wanting sex is a wonderful thing if it's channeled correctly.

B (24:13)

Just going back briefly to something you said.

A (24:15)

Who.

B (24:15)

Who would you identify currently in the culture that you think are good male role models?

A (24:24)

So, you know, I can point to individuals. Kris Kristofferson, army helicopter pilot, Rhodes scholar, known to being really generous to his other artists, married for a long time, procreator, grandkids. You know, I can point to, you know, individuals who, I think, you know, whether it's Barack Obama, I can also point. I think some women are tremendous role models of masculinity. Masculinity or femininity, I don't think are sequestered to people born as male or female. I tend to be drawn to men. My closest male friends tend to be more feminine, more nurturing. I like people who take care of me, but I think the guy who gets up every morning and hauls his ass to work because he takes his responsibility as a provider, who notices people, who absorb more complaints than he complains, who brings. You know, I don't. I think women say, quote, unquote, they want a sensitive man. I quite frankly, think that's bullshit. I don't think they want. I think that leaves. I jokingly say, I think that leaves two people in the car crying and the parallel parking spot still empty. I think what they want is a man. I think what they want is a man who notices their life, who says yes. Okay, I don't get. I don't get this. But it's important to you. I notice you. I know that you need stages where strangers applaud for you. I recognize how goddamn hard it is, what you're doing. And most women are now working and carrying a disproportionate amount of the load at home. And I'm going to try and contribute. I think. I think also, and I say this a lot, you know, I give the same toast at weddings. Oh, yeah. I think a man has a responsibility to try and make the marriage work for the kids and also has a responsibility, not responsibility, but for a good relationship to as often as possible reflect sexual desire and affection and say, I choose you. And I think women want to be wanted. And just saying that triggers people and they say and they get angry. Well, I think there's a certain feeling that they conflate those statements with wanting to take women back and that men should feel entitled to relationships or that I'm focused on money too much. All of which there's a kernel of truth in. But this dialogue, this upsets a lot of people that they conflate this with sort of saying, okay, it's women's fault. And I'm not saying that at all. And nor do I think that any group is obligated to service another group. I don't think that at all. But I do think embracing some of the traditional attributes usually associated with men, and also I think men, people born as males, have an easier time leaning into these things. And I also think there's a bit of a wrap around what, how we should be behaving as humans and how we actually behave and we're not honest with ourselves. And so anyways, my point is I do think that there's. I'd like to think that an aspirational form of masculinity can be restored and really serve as a guiding light or a code for young men. And I can't tell you how much more productive the dialogue has become. Five years ago I was called Andrew Tate with an mba, and now people are having a much more productive dialogue and it's being inspired by mothers. And it goes something like this. The emails I get are, I've got three kids, two daughters, one son, one daughter, a pen, one daughter in PR in Chicago. And my son is in the basement playing video games and vaping and he's just having a much tougher time. So that has changed the dialogue 180 degrees. Because the people initially having the dialogue five years ago, it was kind of thinly veiled misogyny. It started fine. Take responsibility for your actions, be fit, be action oriented, and buy my class on trading crypto. And make sure your woman never goes out to the club alone and she should be in support of you. It got really ugly really fast. And so I think there was an understandable gag reflex when I started talking about this five years ago.

B (28:25)

Well, I think too, I think, you know, it's difficult for, like, people get so entrenched in their ideas about things. And I think when people like you start to talk about things that are, that challenge those existing paradigms and are a bit iconoclastic and they're thinking like, there's always you know, faux outrage or whatever. But then what happens is, you know, the conversation starts to change, and I think you do that all the time.

A (28:53)

Yeah, I hope so. It definitely has gotten a lot more. It's definitely gotten a lot more, I think, a lot more productive, even. Governor Newsom just announced an initiative to focus on young men. Governor Moore out of West Moore, out of Maryland, has said that the focus of his administration is going to be helping boys and young men. If they'd said that five years ago, there just would have been. Oh, my gosh, the. The. You know, it would have been. It just would have been unthinkable for a Democrat to say that five years ago. So I think the dialogue's gotten a lot better, a lot more productive.

B (29:26)

Do you think that it's acceptable now to talk about boys and men? Because, you know, we went way too far to the left in terms of, like, is this a. A correction?

A (29:39)

I don't think it's a correction. I don't. So, for example, this thing on the far right that women were told to be economically viable and now it's a disaster for them that they're alone and depressed. I've never bought that. What's the option to be potentially alone and broke? Women? I mean, I've always thought that that's just a thinly veiled attempt to take us back to the 50s where white men got disproportionate advantage. Well, we're just not going back there, nor should we. And I think women's economic viability is hugely important. It's not going to help a man's mental health if his household is that much poorer because his wife isn't working. You know, economic viability is a wonderful thing. Women's economic ascent is a wonderful thing. But what we have to also acknowledge is it does create some externalities and some problems. It's still worth it. But we've ripped up the script and said, a woman can be anything. That's great. But we've also said to a man, all right, you're supposed to be the provider. And now you know, and have as many on ramps to be a provider, and you're not being the provider. There are 3 million men, or I think approximately one in seven men now are now considered what's called a NEAT. And they're neither in education, employment, or in training. They're basically doing nothing. One out of three men under the age of 25 are living at home. One out of five men at 30 is still living at home. More single women own homes in the US than men, fine. Women in urban areas are under the age of 30, are now out earning. Men, fine. These are all great except basically we have to struggle with the fact that men get a ton of their self esteem and worth from their economic viability. Maybe we can work on that. And women don't seem very attracted to these men. And I think that's going to take thousands of years to fix. I think that's an instinct. And regardless, I mean, I look, I'd say to my boys, I like to shock them because they're so goddamn woke. But I say to my 18 year old boy who just started dating, you know, he'll. He's talking about a date and he was upset because they all split the check. And I'm like, whenever you're in the company of women, you pay. Because dad, that's so boomer. I'm like, no woman's fertility window is shorter. Men benefit more from relationships than women. The downside of sex is greater for women than it is for men. There's. Every mammal has a courtship process where a man's supposed to demonstrate valor. An easy way to recognize that asymmetry and appreciate her time is to pay. And he goes, no, we split the check. And I'm like, okay, fine, but just be clear. And I believe this. Regardless of what the Atlantic or the New York Times says, anyone you split the check with is not going to kiss you. They may be down with it and it's fine. And all the body language is right and this was great. You will never be physical with that person. So I'm like, just be clear. If you ever want expect to kiss somebody, you do not expect, split the check with them. And that triggers and upsets a lot of people that I'm going back to an older age. But I think these instincts are really hard to screen out. And I think we should just look, how do we shape them such that they're more aspirational? And a lot of people say, well, it's whoever asked who out? I'm like, I get it, that makes a lot of sense. But 80% of women still expect the man to initiate romantic contact. I go out and I don't have data around this, but I have anecdotal data around this. When I'm in a social setting, I hear several times guys come up to me and they want to talk about this stuff, but so do women. And the thing I hear most from women when they're in a social situation is I'm out, I'm single, I'M ready to mingle, I look amazing. And no men approach me ever. They don't even try. They don't even come up to me. And so men have gotten a lot of mixed signals around, you know, the reality is the difference between a romantic moment and a creepy moment is the perceived attractiveness of the person who initiates it.

B (33:28)

Yeah.

A (33:28)

And men don't want to be that guy. You hear stories about. The guy makes an approach at a bar, they're out, social, he's indelicate, he's not good at it, it's awkward, he leaves, and it ends up they both work at J.P. morgan, and she complains to HR that this guy is a creep. And basically HR said, you know, you're out in the wild. He didn't do anything wrong, Just, you know, go back to work. But he's now that guy. And I think young men, you can combine with mixed messages they're getting from society. And then quite frankly, they think, why am I going to go through the potential humiliation, expense, demonstrate kindness, have perseverance, follow up, shower, for God's sakes, when I can go home and have synthetic lifelike porn? So I worry that we're literally going to start seeing fewer and fewer young men out in the wild because they'll have decided I can get all my friendships online on Reddit and Discord. I don't need to go into work. I can try and trade stocks or crypto on Coinbase or on Robinhood, or bet on who's going to win mayor in New York on Kalshee. And why would I go through the incredible hassle of trying to establish a romantic and sexual relationship when I have porn, that every day gets better and better and better, And I just find it very depressing because when I think about, and I know this, the most rewarding thing in people's lives, if you really distill it, it's their relationships. And the only thing the relationships have in common is that they're the really important ones are really hard. It is hard to have a loving, productive relationship with your kids. It is hard to maintain a monogamous relationship with a partner. This shit is hard. And that's why they feel so much like victory. And you feel such a sense of purpose when they work. And I think a lot of men have been told you can have a reasonable facsimile of life on a screen with an algorithm, and they're just not developing those skills. And when a woman doesn't have a relationship, she oftentimes pours that energy Back into work, back into her friend network. She's better at finding other places to fill that void of love. Men, when they don't have a relationship, oftentimes pour that energy back into online conspiracy theory, misogyny porn, video games in. Some men need relationships much more than women. They need the guardrails. And we have this, what I call indomitable foe trying to suck them out of society every day. And their immature brains are much more prone to that constant dopa feed of, you know, of online gaming, online porn, online conspiracy theory. I mean, they just seem to be. They just go down these rabbit holes much quicker, much faster than women.

B (36:16)

Right. So. But they're like, as you, as you said earlier, there's this. There are whole system, like the, the most profitable companies in the world. They're incentivized to keep this going. Right. They're. They, they want men. They want men in the basement, right?

A (36:35)

Yeah.

B (36:35)

I mean, they profit so heavily off of it, I guess. You know, there are. They're sort of like, how concerned are you, I guess, about that subset of boys. Right. Because you're talking as well about the JP Morgan analyst who's in a bar. Okay, that's sort of. But he's still out in the world, right. He's going to an office every day.

A (36:54)

Yeah.

B (36:55)

And so he's having interaction and friction. And that's kind of one cohort. And then you're talking about this other cohort of boys, like the lady in Chicago whose son is in the basement vaping while her two daughters are. Are out in the world. I'm wondering, like, you know, and sometimes, you know, in following your work, you, you can catastrophize things, I guess, but really, like, are you, how concerned are you about, you know, given, given the economic incentives around the, the Chicago lady's son in the basement. Like, how concerned are you about that growing group of boys?

A (37:36)

I think that's probably the biggest issue. I mean, there's a lot of, there's a lot of factors. We talk about economic, sociological. Also, men my age aren't stepping up. There's three times as many women applying to be big sisters in New York as there are men applying to be big brothers. So a lot of men aren't stepping up, but big tech. I think if you were to kind of allocate the different factors driving this crisis, the biggest one would be big tech. And that is, I mean, supposedly one in three people under the age of 18 is now officially in a synthetic relationship. They're getting therapy, friendship advice, Sexual stimulation from a synthetic character AI. And it appears that boys, as they grow older, don't grow out of it or that young men are more susceptible to this constant dopa hit that they can get from, from online. So I think that, I mean one, no phones in schools. My colleague Jonathan Haidt has done. I think he's the most influential scholar in the world. I don't think they're. I think synthetic relationships should be illegal for anyone under the age of 18. I think we need to do a better job of age gating pornography for men under the age of 18. I think we need more. I mean there's a lot of common sense solutions here. I think we need to remove 230 protection for big tech for algorithmically elevated content. So if they're constantly elevating conspiracy theory or really incendiary content beyond its organic natural reach, I'm not talking about censorship. But then they become an editorial platform and they should be subject to the same standards you're subject to. If you said something that was blatantly untrue and it resulted in kids self harming, this podcast would be in a lot of trouble. But. So I think we need to regulate big Tech. I think there's a lot of things we could do economically to restore a progressive tax structure and put more money in young people's pockets. Just as a lack of economic viability for all young people disproportionately hurt young men. Raising all boats amongst young people economically, I think will disproportionately help young men. I think that universities need to expand their freshman class size, fasten the population growth or lose their tax free status because then they're no longer public servants, they're hedge funds with classes. I think we need to redshirt boys. Start them at six in kindergarten, start girls at five. The boys are just less mature, full stop. More vocational programming. I'd love to see mandatory national service where kids from different sexual orientations and incomes realize that they're serving in the agency of something bigger than themselves. So I think there's a ton I'd love to see universal childcare. I think that would benefit men immensely because to live in these expensive areas now you need two incomes. And if we were talking about suicide earlier, the zone of suicide where a man is most likely to engage in self harm is the year after he gets divorced. He loses his primary relationship and sometimes access to his kids. And the reason why young people get divorced, they think it's infidelity or lack of shared values. It's not it's economic strain. So if we could relieve some of the economic strain on young people, I think it would benefit all of them, but would disproportionately benefit or level up young men right now. So I think there's a series of. This is what's so frustrating for me about this. People talk about this and they get wept. The incumbents weaponize the illusion of complexity that these problems are so hard to understand. If you put more money in young people's pockets, it's going to help a lot. A lot of this anxiety is coming from a lack of they can't afford a home, they can't afford to go to college, they're not attractive to mates, especially men when they're not economically viable. So let's make them more economically viable. Right. And then some policies that address putting more men into K through 12 schools and also giving people a chance to get out. I think it sounds like your son is about the same age as mine. I think two years in national service would be enormously beneficial for my son. And the country with the lowest levels of young adult depression is actually Israel, despite all its existential threats. And I'm convinced it's because they all serve in the idf and I've met with an IDF battalion. It's all these beautiful young men and women fit outside huge responsibilities. Learning how to handle equipment, learning that the key is character and grit, not your identity. There's nothing like being in a foxhole that makes you appreciate someone for their true skills and character. And you don't care about their sexual orientation or who their dad is. And they meet mentors.

B (42:04)

That's by necessity there. Right? Like there's no, there's no incentive to do that here.

A (42:10)

Well, that's what I'm saying. I think we would benefit from that mandatory national service. And it might not. It doesn't need to be the military. It could be working in a dog shelter or senior help.

B (42:20)

No, I agree. And I think, I think, I mean, I personally think that the public school system needs to be completely overhauled to support different ways of learning to, you know, I think they should be open from 7am to 7pm they should have three meals a day. You know, they should do what Germany does and recognize like if a kid is, you know, not going to go to Harvard like that they should put them on a different track. Like I, I, I, I. It's, it's, it's always astonishing to me why we don't start there. It's like it's daycare. It's education, it's socialization, nutrition. I. I don't get it, but.

A (42:59)

Well, to your point, I mean, the stats around this are extraordinary. So a public school in the US spends $15,000 per student. A public school in a poor neighborhood, it's 8,000 to $10,000. An elite private school similar to the one my kids go to and probably your kids go to spends on average $75,000 a year on that kid, 50 to 60 in tuition, and then through gifts and fundraisers and charity events where they auction off dinner with Gwyneth Paltrow.

B (43:27)

Oh, I'm aware.

A (43:29)

They. They spend $75,000. So just look at it this way. You have an education institution in the United States, and with poor kids, we give them, we invest $120,000, and rich kids, we invest $900,000. And what do you know? On average, the kids who get an incremental 3/4 of a million dollars invested in their education score on average, 370 points higher on the SAT than poor kids and are 77 times more likely to get into an elite school. I mean, like, like, what's going on here? It's like. No, it's. We know what's going on. It's. It's resources. It's. Yeah, so. And also, I mean, if we were going to try and change anything in education system, we'd want to delink property taxes to funding. Because what happens is, yes, the wealth of a public school is based on the tax base. So I agree with you. K through 12. It's interesting. K through 12 is pretty weak in the US and yet we have the most elite. We're the best in the world at college. It's kind of strange that we're so good at one and so bad at the other.

B (44:29)

So, like, in absence of, you know, a mandatory program or mandatory service, like. So it seems like essentially what you're saying is, like, that men need some kind of rite of passage, right? They need some sort of, like, some sort of design in order to help them become men. So, like, in absence of that, what if you could, you know, design a rite of passage that. That didn't involve those things? Like, is there anything, you know, I'm just thinking about, like, individual households or communities, like, how would you design it?

A (45:12)

It's a really interesting thought. I can think of programs around education, national service, tax policy, vocational programming. I can think of individual programs, but this, no such. This notion of the rite of passage, like a bar mitzvah or when you turn 18 or you graduate from high school or college or, you know, you become a man supposedly when you have sex. I don't think any of those are what I'd call the real rite of passage. I think there are a lot of people born as males who live 80 years, die, and never became men.

B (45:47)

Yeah, I agree.

A (45:48)

The way I would describe it is, and I parrot a lot of this from my Yoda on this topic, a guy named Richard Reeves from the American Institute for Boys and Men. I think when you become a man is the following. And I try to tell my boys this. It's when you get to a point of surplus value. So I say to my kids, I say to them, joey, I'm like, you're total negative value right now. We have a school spending so much. There's so many talented people and so many resources being poured into at school. You're giving nothing back. Your mom and your dad spend so much money, time and love and affection on you. We don't get as much back. I mean, yeah, kids, greatest thing in the world, blah, blah, blah. We don't get as much back as they're getting. That's the whole point. At some point when you become a man is when you get to a point of surplus value. You're creating more tax revenue than you absorb. If you live in the United states, you're absorbing 20, $30,000 a year in government support just by. If you want to call 911 and have someone show up, if you want people to defend your borders, if you want to be able to go to national parks, travel on roads, you're absorbing a lot of tax revenue. One way to add surplus value is to create more jobs and revenue than you absorb. Another way is you provide more care for other people that provide care for you. You absorb more complaints than people complain to you. You take care of more people than the care you've absorbed to that point. You're adding surplus value. You notice people's lives. You're the guy that makes people feel better and feel safe and even little things. Like, I used to be the guy that when I got cut off in traffic, sped up and cut him off to restore balance to the universe. And then I realized, or if the Delta, the ticket agent of the Delta counter didn't afford me the respect As a global 1k member I deserve, I'd get in her face. And I think real men say, okay, the opportunity is to add more value than you're taking. And you don't know what's going on with that person's kid. And Occasionally take some blows. So I think that when you're adding surplus value, your relationships, you bring generative value to your relationships. And I didn't learn this. I don't think I would qualify as a man until I was in my 40s because I approached all my relationships as a transaction. Am I getting as much out of this friendship as I'm giving? Are my employees generating more value than I'm paying them? Is my girlfriend spending as much time with my parents as I spend with hers? And that is not the way to live. And it's also, I think it's totally anathema to this idea of masculinity. The whole idea is that you get to the end and you've loved more people that have loved you. You've created a ton of economic value while not absorbing, or you've created more than you've absorbed. You've noticed more people's lives. A lot of people feel safe around you. And the ultimate expression of masculinity is you plant trees, the shade of which you'll never sit under. So I like the idea of surplus value as being not a rite of passage, but the litmus test for when you think or you'd like to believe you've become a man.

B (48:51)

And so I'm curious about. I understand the jobs piece and the giving back piece. You know, I'm interested in the not cutting people off and traffic piece. This sort of. Like, what is. How would you define that? Is that like a perspective? Is it a forgiveness? Like, what is that quality of masculinity that. Like, how would you define that?

A (49:16)

It's just grace and just, you know, I think of some of the characters. I'm not saying don't. Everyone should have a code in certain borders and lines and boundaries and when they cross them, you know, like, I don't think being a man is being nice. I think it's having a code. And there's just certain things that are non negotiable for you and certain ways that you behave. But what I have found is that the biggest unlock for me personally, and this extends beyond masculinity. You know, I had a weird relationship with my father. He wasn't very involved in my life. He left. Left us when I was eight. And I. I used to have a really difficult.

B (49:52)

He died recently. No.

A (49:53)

Yeah. He passed away at 95. Long life. But I used to go months, sometimes a year without speaking to him because I used to get very angry and resentful as an adult that he wanted to be in my life. And he wasn't in mine or wasn't in mine to the extent I would have liked. And when I realized or didn't do

B (50:10)

it in the right way or whatever,

A (50:12)

you know, let me put it this way, did it better than, treated me better than his father did to him, treated him. So that's the primary extinction box. I think every father and mother has to check. But I would go months because not speaking to him because I think I'm not going to be a better son than he was a father to me. And the big unlock for me was realizing that that's the whole point. The whole point is to say, all right, what kind of partner do I want to be, what kind of investor, what kind of co worker, what kind of boss, what kind of friend, what kind of boyfriend, what kind of husband, what kind of son do I want to be? And once I realized, like I just want to be a loving, generous son and not, not anchor it to his contribution or lack thereof, it was like this enormous unlock for me. And I've had a wonderful relationship with my father the last 20 years because I just wanted to be a generous, loving son. And now I don't think about my relationships as a transaction. Am I getting as much out of this friendship? Well, that's the point. The point is there's a lot of studies on happiness. I wrote a book on it because I struggle with it. And the happiest people are the ones that figure out a way it's not the ones who receive the most love, they're happier than people that don't get love. But the happiest people in the world are the ones that form the most relationships and have the opportunity to provide love. And the moment I got out of this kind of transactional, if you want to call it capitalist mindset of always getting a return on investment from all my relationships. It was just a really nice unlock for me. And I think also having kids brings you there because it's impossible to have a net positive relationship on a day to day basis with your, your kids. So that for me, like approaching stuff from what I'll call a surplus value standpoint was a huge unlock. And I don't think it's, you know, but I do think this notion, again, your point as a man is occasionally you don't have to always have the last word if someone says something unkind or rude to you. You know, occasionally you can just take it, you can take some blows. That's okay.

B (52:12)

So for the mothers listening, like what, what would you say in Terms of like what are, what are the most critical things that we can instill in our boys, you know, in order to grow up in more in this, in this model or, or how to avoid, you know, kind of the, all these pitfalls that we're currently experiencing culturally.

A (52:37)

Well, in general. And this is true of just parenting. We overprotect our kids offline and under protect them online. Like something like half of kids by the age of 12 have never been allowed to walk down a grocery store aisle alone. And yet they're on these platforms where 50 year old men are commenting on their physical appearance. So I would say that my parents biggest fear was I was going to get into too much trouble. My biggest fear is my kids aren't going to get into enough trouble. I don't believe in tracking your kids. I think it's important. I tell my kids on a weekend night I need them to go out. You know, I'm like, you need to get out of the house. I don't, you know, I don't. I used to leave my house Saturday morning with a Schwinn bike, 35 cents in an Abu Zaba bar and I was gone for 14 hours. And if it got to 10pm My mom might start calling neighbors. But my kid's 15 minutes home from school in London and we call fucking MI6. I mean we got helicopter gunships searching for the kid and I don't think that's a good thing. I'd say the one thing I would say to a single mother is that it's really important that you get men involved in your boy's life. There's just certain things, boys just respond on certain levels to men in a way they won't respond to a mom as talented as she is and as extraordinarily important as she is. So I would just say to a single mother with a boy, make sure that there are men involved in his life and to the extent you can try and get them as involved in as many activities outside of the house, because if they're inside the house with broadband, they're just going to find a lot of cheap dopa that's going to be very seductive. And I offer my kids the most extraordinary opportunities outside of the house because we're privileged and they'd still quite frankly rather. I think if my son, if I think if I said not anymore, but my 15 year old son, I think if I'd said to him a year or two years ago, you can do anything for the next 48 hours, anything, no judgment he would say, I want to go put on diapers and not even go to the bathroom and just watch TikTok until I collapse. And I'm not. I joke that my kid, you know, he started doing this stuff. I don't know if your kids have done this. He goes. He says he's not. He's like, I got to go to the bathroom. And, you know, slips his phone into his pocket, and a half an hour later, he's still in the bathroom claiming, oh, my stomach's bothering me, like. But my kids are. And me, and they see me. We're all addicted to our goddamn phones, so do anything you can to break that cycle of addiction. I think sports is great. Unfortunately, now, sports takes money, church, group.

B (55:21)

But also the thing, I think what's also, you know, there's a disparity in that. Like, boys that are naturally good at sports, right? They're. They get, you know, scooped up for this team or that team, or they have that interest and it's. And, you know, there's like. My. My son was more into. He. He. He was a swimmer, and he was a really good swimmer, but he. He hated competing. He's. You know, as I mentioned, he's a sensitive kid. He. So he. Luckily, he liked things that he could. Where he could compete against himself, like skating and surfboarding and things like that. But it kind of seems like the boys who aren't sort of funneled naturally into sports get funneled into this more internal online thing, which, of course perpetuates the problem.

A (56:04)

Men between the ages of 20 and 30 are spending less time outdoors and prison inmates right now.

B (56:09)

Is that so?

A (56:10)

Yeah, it's very strange if left to their own devices, a lot of men just don't leave the house now.

B (56:16)

Oh, my God.

A (56:17)

The temptation of these relationships. And I mean, look, you've put a casino, a porn site, an arcade, Netflix, the high school cafeteria. You've put it all in their pocket or on their computer. And the visual stimulation. Now, video games, it's just so extraordinary. And you can play with other people. And video games, I don't actually nothing as bad as some of the other stuff because there's multiplayer and they have objectives as a team, et cetera. But the temptation to just stay at home and get that constant dopa hit from all sorts of different receptors online is just more tempting than going out and doing stuff. And, you know, if I could, like, hug America's youth, especially men or boys, communicate one message, it would be, you got to trust me on this. The fear, anxiety, and loneliness you will ultimately feel. Spending a lot of time online is so much greater than the fear of anything that lays out there outside of that room. And that your happiness, your productivity, your wealth, your relationships, the likelihood you're going to have sex is all inversely correlated to the amount of time you spend on a screen. A screen will make you poor, less attractive, less likely to have a relationship. Nothing wonderful is going to happen to you on a screen. And we have to start training our kids. I have this app now. I shut off my kids. To tell them not to be online is just stupid. That's how they get their homework, and that's how they communicate with their friends. It's how they socialize. I get it. But what I say to them is like, okay, you come home. This. This hour, too, is for homework. If you're not playing sports, you need to do something else. And I shut off or we shut off. I'm using the we a lot. Basically, my partner, we shut off their apps for a certain amount of time because I can see it with one, especially with one of my boys, after he's online for a little, his brain gets wired and he needs that cycle of dopa to keep spinning, even if it means hitting his brother or screaming at his mother. He just needs that constant action reaction, even if it's unproductive activity. So you asked me what mothers can do, get men involved in their lives if there aren't a lot of men in their lives, and quite frankly, program them such that they're out of the house as much as possible.

B (58:36)

Can I ask you what feminine quality of yours or just in general, that you think it is important to cultivate in order to become a better man?

A (58:49)

I was. I just did this podcast tour with Kara Swisher, and we had seven cities and seven nights. And the most rewarding part of it, Gwyneth, was I got. I was in LA and I brought a couple of my mentors in when I was 13. The stockbroker took an interest in me and gave me a lesson in the markets. And I used to call him every day from Emerson Junior High School at the pay booth and talk about my stocks and go to his office and hang out with him. And in addition to just having a impressive man take interest in my life, I've been in the markets my whole life, and it has served me really well from an economic standpoint. And the other person I highlighted was my best friend's father. Stepfather. Paul met Adam's mom when she was 30. He was 23. They were in law school together. She had two kids from a previous marriage and they've been married 55 years and in the last 10 years. And this guy, Gwyneth is something out of like a bad 70s film. Super handsome, always had a, you know, had the hottest cars, 240Z, then a Porsche, then a Ferrari. Great provider, baller professionally. First guy that ever took me and Adam to work out. Quiet, stoic, just a really. Used to have all his guy friends over for Monday Night Football. Was the first time I drank a beer. I mean, kind of the, like the cliche masculine stuff. The last 10 years he's been taking care of his wife for 55 years. He's been a sole caregiver in a situation where 99% of us would have decided that, you know, she'd be better off in a home. She's really struggling and I just find it so inspirational. And I struggle with like, all right, what's masculinity? What's femininity? What are the attributes of a man versus a woman? And sometimes I'm like, I hear myself. I'm like, these aren't necessarily attributes of masculine or femininity, but just of humanity. And we're finally recognizing the emotional labor women are bringing to the table in the house. They're more empathetic. My, my partner can hear my kid get up at 3 in the morning. I will sleep right through it. She just has, she just has an innate sense of when she'll say to me, our oldest son, Alec, oh, something's wrong, he's not doing well. I'm like, what? What are you talking about? He's fine. And then we find out the next day that he had his heart broken. Or I mean, she just. So we're finally recognizing the skills and importance of the emotional labor that women put in. And I think there's a role for men to say, all right, at a minimum, I've got to work really hard on my marriage. The best thing I think you can do for your sons is be really good to their mother and stay married unless it's really toxic. And then being a caregiver, like, this guy's been such an outstanding role model. To see this guy who's like, for lack of a better term, a total stud and has decided that his job now is to take care of his 85 year old wife, it's just so inspiring and so human. So I think that we need more male role models like that because I think the natural inclination is the thing I've often said. I Wish I had daughters, because who's going to take care of me? That sort of perpetrates this cycle of expectation that women are the caregivers. So I like the idea of somehow injecting this notion of protection extends to being a caregiver and that that is actually not a feminine thing, but a masculine thing. But I'm really questioning, like, to what extent can I outline attributes of masculinity while not. While not recognizing that sometimes the attributes more commonly associated with women. Like, it's a wonderful thing when a man takes on those things as well.

B (62:23)

I actually was fortunate enough to listen to that chapter. Listen to you read that chapter when I was in the car. And it was, you know, you. You. You tell it in a very emotional way. Such a beautiful story. Okay, can I ask you one last question that's off topic? Okay. From where you sit right now, how do you think I'm doing with goop?

A (62:50)

I know almost nothing about GOOP other than you charge an outrageous amount of money for basic shit. So kudos to you. Look, you're. My understanding is you're a lesson in branding, and there's very few people of your celebrity that have managed to pull together. Usually they start something, it gets to a certain point, and then they sell out to a bigger player. And my sense is you have a feel for merchandising and are. I don't know. My sense is you're killing it. I don't. I think you should be mentoring me around this stuff. I don't have a lot of advice for you. I think. I think you're doing just fine. I think you've tapped into something and you've. You've managed to do. I mean, the reality is Hollywood is highly sexist, right? A man can be a leading man at 70, and, you know, unless you're Meryl Streep, it just gets harder and harder for women as they get older. And my sense is you've managed to take your celebrity and your footprint and combine it with other skills and build, you know, really, really nice business for yourself. I think you're. Anyways, I. My sense is you're killing it. At least. At least from a perception standpoint. So I don't have any advice for you.

B (63:58)

Okay, well, thank you very much.

A (64:00)

Tell me what to do. I'm the one that needs help. I get the sense your worst day is better than most people's best days.

B (64:08)

There are also lots of complications in my life, but I'm glad that you perceive it that way.

A (64:13)

I can't help It. What is the biggest issue. What is the biggest piece of friction in Gwyneth Paltrow's life right now?

B (64:20)

In a work sense or in a personal sense?

A (64:22)

Yes,

B (64:26)

in a personal sense. I am really struggling with my kids, not all living under my roof anymore.

A (64:36)

Because they've left the house or you are mixed marriage?

B (64:40)

No, because they've. They've left. And it's sort of really upended my sense of identity. And it's. It's just I. I guess on. On some level, I'm. I'm surprised by how much it's upended my life. And I would have thought, like, oh, you know, I'm. I'm, like, therapized and I'm in touch with myself and blah, blah, blah, and I'll get through it. So. So that's probably the hardest thing because also this is now the second year where they're all gone. So I would have thought that I would have made more progress by now.

A (65:11)

I have a senior in high school and I'm dreading that. What's interesting is.

B (65:14)

It's awful.

A (65:16)

Yeah, it's interesting is Mom's looking forward to it. She's done. I'm really dreading it. I. I just like knowing he's in the house. It just makes me feel more calm and more at ease. Me too. But do you have any advice?

B (65:29)

I mean, I'll be interested to see what your. How your wife actually feels. I do know some women who feel incredibly liberated by it. And I. My sense is, like, the people who are dreading it do. Are. Are stunned by how bad it actually turns out to be.

A (65:46)

I mean, I think sometimes it's darkest before it's pitch black. Exactly. Well, that's inspiring.

B (65:55)

I know. Well, listen, it's not like you're fucking Mr. Doom and Gloom over there.

A (66:00)

I am, but that's my job. You're goop. You're Gwyneth Paltrow. You're supposed to make us feel better.

B (66:07)

I mean, I guess, you know, but you have a younger one too, right? So you're not empty. You're not going to be empty yet.

A (66:14)

I got him for another three years. So.

B (66:16)

So that's. That's that's good. But I. Because that becomes a very unique and special time. That is also. I never could have anticip, because I never. You know, it was the first time it happened to me and that. That was really magical. So you'll be okay there. But when they both go, I think just. I think understanding that it's real grief and that it's like, you know, it's sort of. It. It is the death of something. It is. It is the death of that structure of the family. It is. It is the death of you being a father and that particular way. And it's, you know, just to kind of give yourself grace around the. All the feelings and to, you know, that it's. It just takes a minute to work through it. It's. It's pretty seismic.

A (67:05)

Yeah. I think that if my honest self. I'm a bit of a narcissist, and that is. I worry that I'll miss him. But what I really hate is that it's a marker for. Next up, death. I mean. Yeah, it's sort of like there's just no getting around it. It's a marker for the finite nature of life. And I'm now on the back nine. I just have one more question for you. Despite that, I like hijacking other people's podcasts.

B (67:29)

Please do.

A (67:30)

What's the one professional box you haven't checked? Like, if you were to, say, try to be as unfiltered and just nakedly ambitious as possible, but in 10 years, what box would you like to check professionally that you haven't checked? What does success look like for you now?

B (67:48)

Yeah, I mean, you know, I. I think I would like. Like to have some kind of liquidity of some kind.

A (67:57)

So more money. You like a. You like to be acquired?

B (68:03)

I mean, I don't think. I don't even know if I would want to sell Goop, but I have another business called Goop Kitchen that is like a clearer path to sort of IPO or acquisition. So it's not only liquidity for me.

A (68:14)

Let me. Let me just make an observation, okay? You were somewhat reticent to say that, and I don't want to say embarrassed. When a man says that, it's a feature. When a woman says it, it's a bug. I have my whole life started and sold businesses. And I sit people down and I say, this is our business. This is the multiple. We're going to go four more years, we're going to sell it for between X and Y dollars. You own 1%. I mean, quite frankly, I'm addicted to money. And I continued. I can't get off the hamster wheel of it. I just accepted a speaking gig in Jackson Hole. And by the way, to get from London to Jackson Hole, Gwyneth is not easy. There's no direct flights. Right. And I. I got very lucky. I've had several liquidity events So I don't need money anymore, but I can't get off that hamster wheel.

B (68:57)

And it's a sickness.

A (68:59)

Oh, 100%. And I'm infected by it. But I find that when men talk about money and their ambitions around money, it's seen as an attribute. But women are just supposed to accidentally be economically secure. They're not somehow seen as unseemly. When a woman says, I would like to have a liquidity event, and again, that sexism emerges, and we just assume women are just supposed to be accidentally talented.

B (69:22)

That's true.

A (69:24)

Anyways, I'm wishing for you a liquidity event.

B (69:28)

Thank you very much. I'd also think I'd like to go back to the theater, which I haven't done in many, many years.

A (69:34)

Wow, that just seems awful to me. That just seems awful.

B (69:40)

It's so exhilarating, and it's so much fun. And it's the only place where an actor gets to, like, kind of be in charge is live stuff like that. Otherwise, you're at the mercy of, you know, editors and everybody else. And so I. I think it's really fun.

A (69:57)

So do you want to know my favorite movie of yours? Is that what you're thinking? I need to know. It wasn't, but I know you're desperate for my affirmation.

B (70:04)

Well, that is true, because I think

A (70:06)

one of maybe your less commercially successful movies, Sliding Doors. Is that what it's called?

B (70:10)

Oh, Sliding Doors. Very philosophical movie.

A (70:14)

I love that movie. And I think it's. There's a real lesson about your life. Your success and your failure in life is largely not your fault. That's what I took from that film, and I've always believed that.

B (70:26)

I think that's. I think that's right. I mean, I think that. I like to think that there's some kind of predetermined, you know, series of paths in a way, but that you can, you know, with. With your work and intention, you can sort of modify or. Or change them.

A (70:43)

This was like hanging out with expensive candles. This was just so nice. So nice.

B (70:49)

All right, well, take good care, and thank you so much for joining me. I really like you. I really am a fan. I really. I love your podcasts and I love your rants, and I love how, I don't know, you make me rethink things, and I think that's really important these days. So thank you so much, Scott.

A (71:06)

That's a nice thing to say. Thank you. And congrats on all your success, Gwynedd.

B (71:10)

Thank you. Thank you so much. Thanks for tuning in. This has been a presentation of Cadence 13 Studios. I hope you'll listen, follow, rate and review all of our episodes, which are available for free on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey or wherever you get your podcasts.