Gwyneth Paltrow (2:44)

And when you change your energy, you change your life. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow this is the Goop Podcast, bringing together thought leaders, culture changers, creatives, founders and CEOs, scientists, doctors, healers and seekers here to start conversations. Because simply asking questions and listening has the power to change the way we see the world. Here we go. This week, we're sharing a gem from the Goop Podcast archives. Hi, everybody. Welcome back to the Goop Podcast. This is Gwyneth Paltrow. A couple of weeks ago, I did kind of a solo format, just some musings on transitions. And I was very moved by how many of you reached out to share that it meant a lot to you. It was kind of a test. We weren't sure how it was gonna go, but it made me potentially. There were some more of these musings that might be helpful. The one today. You know, I've been thinking about family a lot, and I have a special family, which is a blended family. And it's another subject that many, many people have talked to me about. How does one step parent. There's not a lot of literature. It's a little bit of a desert, evidenced by the fact that I made a ton of mistakes as a stepmother, looking back, and if I could, I think I would have done things differently. And so instead of doing a solo pod, I pulled in my husband Brad, my co parent, my step parent, through thick and thin. And, you know, it's kind of a tender and layered topic. There's so much love and there's friction and sadness and guilt and amazing growth and can be very challenging and also very beautiful. So Brad is joining me today. I hope that for any of you that this is useful or applicable, I hope that you find it. So I thought I would rope in my husband, Brad Falchuk, who's my partner in step parenting, or on the other side of the line in step parenting.

Brad Falchuk (5:13)

Hello.

Gwyneth Paltrow (5:14)

Because I thought it would, I don't know, make it more interesting and robust and bring it to life more.

Brad Falchuk (5:21)

I agree.

Gwyneth Paltrow (5:23)

So I think the reason why people are so interested in this subject, those to whom it impacts and affects, is because it's actually a pretty tricky arena. And I think it requires a great deal of, in the adult. Of the adult. It requires a great deal of accountability, vulnerability, understanding your triggers. And nothing quite seems to trigger somebody, especially women like stepmothers, I think.

Brad Falchuk (6:06)

Well, it's the mythological the stepmother, right?

Gwyneth Paltrow (6:10)

The evil stepmother. What do you think that's about?

Brad Falchuk (6:16)

Why do I think it triggers? Why it can be triggering for women or why the evil stepmother mythology exists?

Gwyneth Paltrow (6:21)

Why does that archetype or mythology Exist. Let's start with that.

Brad Falchuk (6:26)

Hmm. Let me think about it.

Gwyneth Paltrow (6:32)

I think that it. I think that it's a mythology because. Slash. A cliche. Because it's actually hilarious how easy it is to fall into that trap, right?

Brad Falchuk (6:49)

What do you mean?

Gwyneth Paltrow (6:51)

Meaning, okay, we're talking about stepmothers right now, right? So obviously, in an ideal world, the relationship that you had your kids in works out, and your kids never have to experience divorce or blending families or anything like that. But a lot of times that's not the case. And so you're. So you're coming into a situation where, you know, I'll make it personal, right? Like, I came into the dynamic with you. You had two kids. I had two kids. And I think what seems to happen every time is like, the dad is kind of in the middle, right? It's like the kids are having a hard time understanding, adjusting. They don't want to let go of the family dynamic they had. And the dad is kind of in the middle, right? Like trying to sort of appease both and play both sides. And, you know, the woman is like, hey, you know, your kids are having a hard time. And there's this. It's very easy to take it personally, right? It's like, I think for women, they come in obviously wanting harmony and good intentions, and they, you know, it's like the dream that it all is like the Brady Bunch, and it blends really well. But the truth is, I think the only place to kind of act out is against the stepmother, right? Because they don't want to push the dad away.

Brad Falchuk (8:25)

Well, I mean. Or they do. I mean, I think it's. I think it's. Or not, you know, maybe push it. Push away is the wrong word. I just think that, you know, that what are the. What are the roles of the mother and father in the family, right? And the. And the family now exists. There's now multiple families that exist, right? There's the family that exists with the mother and father who are the birth parents. There's a family now that exists with the mother and father in the family who are now step parents. And you're trying to create what are the rules of this new family? What is the energy of this new family? What are the dynamics, all these things? And it's new, right? Because these kids have all grown up in different dynamics, complicated ones and ones. If a divorce happened, it means it wasn't a perfect dynamic, but it was familiar, and it was designed by the two parents who were responsible for those kids. And so now you have this Brand new one that the parents don't know what it is yet.

Gwyneth Paltrow (9:30)

Right.

Brad Falchuk (9:30)

Because they're also in a relationship. They're trying to figure out exactly what their relationship is at the same time. Because, I mean, obviously that's gone on for hopefully long enough that. That you have a good idea. But, you know, what is a dad in this family? What is a mom in this family? And so the kids are forcing you to really make some choices about that. And that's hard because really what worked, I think, after divorce is I think what probably really everybody got used to was what it was like to be just one parent with two kids. Right, Right. So that family really was cooking. Right. You've now worked through the pain of whatever the divorce was and living separately and all that. And now you've got a system going. You're like, hey, dad, with two kids, this is working. We're good. We got a house, we're happy. We got our rooms. Mom with two kids, this is working. We're great. And now it's like, actually, actually, that's not what we're doing anymore. Actually, we're gonna throw in another adult that's not your mom or that's not your dad, but is kind of there to be your mom or your dad in this family dynamic. And it's. Of course, a kid would be resistant to that and push back and said they're losing something or they're threatening. It's a threat that they're losing something.

Gwyneth Paltrow (10:51)

Yeah, I remember that. But why do you think. Why do you think that again? Like, where does the evil stepmother come from out of that that you just talked about, like, that archetype? I don't know.

Brad Falchuk (11:07)

I mean, I think it comes from what the mother means archetypally. Right. In a family. That's what I mean. So now you have a new dynamic that's there. And whoever the mother is, you know, the mother is sort of. I mean, how would you describe what the archetype of being a mother is? You would know better than anybody.

Gwyneth Paltrow (11:26)

I think, you know, to be maternal is to kind of embody. Like, I always. I always think about. And actually it was. It was your kids who really helped me define this for myself. You know, I think. And it's funny, when I look back, it was definitely. We, like, traversed through some really rough, rough things. And I feel like when. And I think we should also touch on this at some point, like, what the lessons are that you learn from your stepchildren, because they've been really profound for me. And one of my most profound lessons that I learned from my relationship with your daughter, which is now so fantastic, is that I think there was a testing going on. You know, she was testing me all the time to see at what point I would reject her. Right. And at some point, I decided, like, I just. I just need to be exactly that. The essence of maternal. What is without opinions, without words, without corrections, like, what does it mean to embody the essence of the maternal? And I really landed on this kind of image or metaphor of the sun. You know, the sun is incredibly warm and casting off light and sunshine, ray of light, and not. Doesn't need anything back in order to be it. It just gives off. It just emanates. And that's what I thought Izzy needed from me. Right. I was just going to be that presence for her, always loving and forgiving in the face of, you know, if she, like, acted up or. And show her that ultimately I was so there for her that she would not question my intentions or, you know, think that I was there to take you away from her.

Brad Falchuk (13:37)

And do you think that's. That the evil stepmother dynamic is more likely to be a threat to a daughter than it is to a son?

Gwyneth Paltrow (13:49)

I think so. And I do think it's. What's interesting is that the. And I found myself falling into this. It's like, you could say, ostensibly, like, this dynamic gets triggered by the child who is resentful or scared or any normal set of feelings that come around, this idea that they're gonna lose their dad or their relationship with their dad is gonna change, and so they push back or they act out they're demonstrative in some way, like, behaviorally, that creates friction, right? That's the point of it. And I think what also co. Creates the dynamic is the woman or the mother or me. And I fell into this trap a couple of times of being triggered. Right? Like, it hits at something so core and so primal, which I think is, like, probably specific to each person. Right. But to me, like, am I lovable? Am I accepted too? Right. It's like my core stuff gets challenged by the child's behavior. Right. And so I think, like, a lot of times, the woman can sort of co. Create that dynamic by not sort of aspiring to. I mean, it's interesting because it's like, I've never had a clear opportunity to, like, ascend to my highest self more than in my role as a stepmother.

Brad Falchuk (15:29)

Because.

Gwyneth Paltrow (15:30)

Because I think it required, like, a mastery over my own impulses, my own damage, you know, my own weaknesses, my Own my ego, all the things. You know, it was really like I had to talk to myself. I had to, like, actively remind myself to be the adult at all times. And there were, like, a few moments that were really, really hard. When I travel, whether it's for work or just to take a break, I love staying in an Airbnb. I love the charm and how every place feels so different from a hotel. It gives me a sense of feeling grounded wherever I am, whether it's a weekend away in the country or filming somewhere far from home. There's something about waking up in a real home with a kitchen to make coffee in and a living room to spread out in. And whenever I'm in an Airbnb, I find myself thinking about the person whose home it is while I'm making it mine for a few days. Maybe they're off on their own adventure or simply opening their doors for someone else to enjoy the space they love. That's what I love about Airbnb. You already have the space. Why not let it offer something to someone else and let it work for you? Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much@airbnb.com host.

Brad Falchuk (17:06)

Do you think that another thing that makes it harder is that you're trying to do all that stuff in a space where you're not sure if you have full rights?

Gwyneth Paltrow (17:20)

Correct.

Brad Falchuk (17:20)

Right. You're also trying to be respectful to know that, like, there is another parent who is not in this house who you want to respect and you want to be deferential to. And so you don't know how much of this can I embody and you start figuring out. But I think for a while it can be very restrictive that thought you don't have jurisdiction.

Gwyneth Paltrow (17:44)

Right.

Brad Falchuk (17:45)

You don't think you do.

Gwyneth Paltrow (17:45)

Right. You don't think you do, or you don't want to step on toes, and you actually think that's going to make it work worse. You think that if you assert in my case anyway, because I don't want to make generalizations, but I thought in my case, like, if I assert my boundaries or my expectations around manners or anything like that, it will exacerbate the situation. Right. It'll be inflammatory, it will cause more pain, you know, it will upset the other parent. Like, it's very tricky. You feel like it's full of minefields and, you know, you want to be respectful. But I do think that I missed an opportunity in, like, in being on tenterhooks. I think I made it a more protracted Situation. Like, if I look back at my mistakes as a stepmother, I should have just treated them both like my kids. Way faster.

Brad Falchuk (18:47)

Right, right.

Gwyneth Paltrow (18:49)

Like, I was too worried about everyone's.

Brad Falchuk (18:53)

Feelings in a way, which is counter to what you're describing as this mother archetype. Right. You were eclipsing yourself. You were saying, I'm gonna give you some of this, just enough warmth that maybe everybody's comfortable with, and nobody wants that.

Gwyneth Paltrow (19:08)

Right.

Brad Falchuk (19:09)

And so all that means is what's probably being read by the children is, okay, I am being rejected. Okay. I don't get as much as her own kids. It's not quite as warm. And so that could be also telling them to shut up. Right. That could also be disciplining, because treating.

Gwyneth Paltrow (19:29)

Them the same across the board.

Brad Falchuk (19:30)

Treating them across the board, you're gonna get everything, and you're gonna also lose it the same amount if you behave poorly.

Gwyneth Paltrow (19:37)

All right, that's interesting. So, like, the idea that if there are four kids in a room and two, you know, two of them are my biological and two are yours, and I'm like, say to mine, like, hey, like, that's not acceptable. Stop doing that. But around, everybody knows, like, right. That I love my kids fully, so I am disciplining them. But if I'm pulling the punch from your kids, it feels like I'm othering them.

Brad Falchuk (20:06)

Yeah, you're not reading. They're not. They're not. They're not. They don't get the same equal treatment, good and bad.

Gwyneth Paltrow (20:11)

Right.

Brad Falchuk (20:11)

And I think that's, you know, again, as you're building this new family dynamic, there is a dynamic of a family that you're trying to create, and everybody has to get the same thing from both parents. And I think also, you're, again, building this civilization, you know, while also, you know, the hope is if you're, you know, if you've gotten divorced, you've learned all the lessons of divorce, and the second marriage you have is a choice you're making of somebody who you really understand the relationship, and it's very deep and meaningful to you, and, you know, it's not going anywhere. And so nothing can threaten it. And then something comes and threatens it. Right? And so then something you realize, you're like, look, if for some reason we can't make this work, you hope you're with somebody that would eventually have to choose his children or her children over the relationship. That's who you want to be with, is to say, look, I don't know how to get this to work. And they're really struggling and we're doing everything we can. I have to choose them. And so you know that in your head. We knew that in our head that if the one thing that could. I think we always believed, no matter what, that we were going to be able to work through it. Anything, no matter what. It was, hard as it may be, but the part that's scary, that becomes triggering is like, yeah, but this could really blow it.

Gwyneth Paltrow (21:36)

And our only fights were about that.

Brad Falchuk (21:38)

Exactly. And kids that are looking to know that they can count on this can smell that. And they're saying, okay, if that's where the trigger point, if that's where the pressure point is, I'm gonna put pressure there. Because they also want to build this amazing new family. They do. Why wouldn't they? Who wouldn't want to be part of something great with. In this expansive new experience where they get these bonus parents that clearly, if their parents love, there must be something great about them. And so I think it just. It's a very, very complicated soup that everybody is swimming in, right? And the only way to manage it is both parents, both being their absolute best. But also something that numerous, I think, therapists had told us was the adult's dynamic with each other is the most important thing. Actually, you should never break up the relationship because the kids are having a hard time. Actually, what they need to see is you two are. There's no daylight between us. And so I think anytime we really focused on that and really focused on those two things, which is like, I am going to. Whatever's happening today that's causing trouble, I'm gonna go deal with my shit about it. And also we're gonna deal with our shit about it so that the kids just know that they can't mess with it. And that's a relief to them.

Gwyneth Paltrow (23:02)

What's an example of that? Like, dealing with your shit about it. What was an example?

Brad Falchuk (23:07)

If you wanna talk about my psychology, right? So if I have abandonment issues, right? And then we're in a situation where I need to manage an issue and I feel stuck between. And my brain is, oh, my God, I'm going to lose all of this if I don't handle this. And it's spiraling out of control and I get into this space of fearing of abandonment. I'm not doing anybody any good because I have to embody this father archetype, which is creating boundaries and being solid and being unmovable when it comes to the values of the family and unafraid, you know? And so if I'm not doing those things. You melt down, right? You're cut off, you know, and flying out to Mars. The kids are melting down, and everybody is sort of, you know, in a confused state. And so, you know, it doesn't take much. You know, like I said, it's at a dinner table. It doesn't take much. It's not even what is said. It's how it's said to say, like, okay, everybody shut the fuck up. You know, we're doing this now. Or it's just managing again, being really clear with everybody again what the values of the family are and saying these are what we're doing, and then us living up to those values.

Gwyneth Paltrow (24:29)

Would you recommend that people kind of. That parents sit down and sort of articulate the values of the family that they're trying to create?

Brad Falchuk (24:38)

Yeah, I think we did that. Right. I remember we asked them all once, what do we think the values of this family are? And we all had different things. And some of those things were a little bit. Were interesting. Some of those things were. Yeah. I guess we don't say they are, but that kind of is that.

Gwyneth Paltrow (24:53)

Oh, yeah, I remember.

Brad Falchuk (24:56)

But I think we needed to know, and I think we needed to stick to it. And we also needed to 100% commit to the truth, which was, you and I are never breaking up. We're not going anywhere. So this is the family, right? And we're allowed to invent it and create it in our image, right? Which is healthy and communicative and accountable and fun and delicious and present. Right? These are. These are all things that. This is what we expect of everybody. And when they go out into the world, they can be who they want to be. But when we're together as a family, this is what we expect of them. And I think it helped because then you can just say that's not it.

Gwyneth Paltrow (25:42)

What was your philosophy around being a stepfather?

Brad Falchuk (25:47)

Well, I mean, in my specific case, it was a little different. Only because you and your kids are so complete and close in that way. It's like. It's really. I mean, it was much more about finding a way in than it was about anything else. You know, you guys are. You know, they really look to you for everything. And so it was just being not needy in that way and just being steady to say, like, I am the masculine presence in this house.

Gwyneth Paltrow (26:19)

Yeah.

Brad Falchuk (26:20)

And I represent what that is, which is steadiness and calm and curiosity. It was like, okay, so they know when they sit at the dinner table, they know what's going to happen at that dinner table, right? They know we're going to have conversations about World War II or about any particular subject or something, news that was going on in the world that day or astronomy or something, to get their brains sort of ticking and having to think about things. And also know they had a problem, that they needed advice, that I would be there for that, but that I just wasn't. I didn't need anything from them.

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Gwyneth Paltrow (27:34)

What have you learned about yourself from being a step parent?

Brad Falchuk (27:38)

I just think it's. I think it's because you have to be so thoughtful about what it means to be a father as a stepparent, which you don't. In the same way you don't really have time. I think as a parent, when you're raising kids, you're just sort of doing it and you're trying not to do what your parents did in the bad ways and trying to do what they did in the good ways and unconsciously doing what they did in the bad ways anyway, that as a parent, to a stakeholder, like, well, what does it mean to be a dad here? What are the fundamentals of being a dad? That's going to be necessary. And I just want to do those. And also, you're not enmeshed with the kids, so you can actually see them with your own kids. You're so tied up with them that you think you see them, but you don't. So when they're kids, you just love, but you see them completely. You can give them what they need a lot more easily and you can help they're, you know, the parent that is, you know, genetically attached to them and who spent, you know, who raised them, you know, before you got there, helped point out, like, oh, I think you're missing this because you're so tied up with them. I think you're maybe missing this and sort of help guide in that direction.

Gwyneth Paltrow (28:58)

You've been very helpful to me there.

Brad Falchuk (29:00)

And you to me. Thank you.

Gwyneth Paltrow (29:01)

Thank you.

Brad Falchuk (29:03)

I mean, I think both of us, you know, so much of parenting is Just paying attention and just noticing, you know, I think so. I think we both do our best to notice. And I do think there's value in talking about what we were saying about how do you be a mother, be a father to stepchildren, while also being respectful of their mother and or father at the same time. Because it is a tricky part of it that I think we both managed to handle very, very well. And thankfully, our ex is also handled very, very well. Yeah, but what do you think? I think it's. Because I also think it's much more complicated for a mother. It's a much more. Much more dangerous area than for dads. Unless, of course, if you have a dad who's the kid loves to play baseball and you're great at baseball and their dad is great at being. Then it can get a little tricky about who's playing catch with the kid. But for moms, I think there's so much more.

Gwyneth Paltrow (30:13)

What do you think? Or what's the question?

Brad Falchuk (30:17)

How do you both do what we're talking about and embody that sunshine maternal. Treat them as if, you know, as if they're your own, because they are, and yet not ever threaten their birth mother?

Gwyneth Paltrow (30:36)

Well, I think that if you are from that place, right. Like eternal sunshine as much as you can be, then what does that mean? That means that there are no. There are no quid pro quos. There are no expectations in terms of, like, what you need the kid to give you back or be for you. And that sort of gets. That energy, gets personified into truly wanting the best for the child, doing whatever you can to help them achieve their highest selves. And I think there's something inherently unthreatening about that. Right. Like, if you really feel that somebody wants the best for your child, truly, I don't think it feels. Well, at least in our case, I don't think it was. It felt threatening. I think it felt additive. And I mean, I imagine there are certain scenarios where maybe that. That would feel threatening. But I don't know if you. If you really are trying to, like, keep your ego out of it, keep your triggers out of it, and just trying to be truly loving. I'm not sure how the other parent could feel that that was taking anything away from them or encroaching in on their space, you know, I don't know.

Brad Falchuk (32:20)

Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, it goes back to what you were saying, is that at the end of the day, it really is an opportunity for you to be as purely maternal as you possibly can. Be. Because it has to. I mean, again, being a mother is never threatening. It's the opposite. Right, right. And so if you're really doing that, everybody, that core intrinsic is going to get on board.

Gwyneth Paltrow (32:46)

Right?

Brad Falchuk (32:48)

And I just think, you know, I mean, most importantly, it just takes an enormous amount of patience.

Gwyneth Paltrow (32:56)

That's true.

Brad Falchuk (32:57)

Right. Like, very rarely is it okay right away, and oftentimes it's not okay for months, for years. And we have. We know people that it's, you know, a decade. Right. Not until the kid is out of the house and off in the world that they start realizing what's possible in this family dynamic. But also that, you know, it doesn't need to be super complicated. Right. It's like, it's just saying, these are. This is who we're gonna be here. And I think that as I getting back to what I was saying before is that there's a reason why you got divorced and married somebody else. Something wasn't working. Half of the reason why it wasn't working, at least half is you, right? Definitely at least half. Right. And so the hope is that you resolve that and found someone that's giving you the opportunity to be extraordinary and be happy. Your kids share your DNA, and they also share a lot of the chain of crazy that you brought into their lives. Right. And so the things that made you struggle, you gave them a little bit. And those things are being hopefully healed by this new, wonderful relationship you're having. Right. You now have an opportunity to heal those and be a better version of yourself and have this other person bring that into your life. They then get the same thing. Right. They're now getting the opportunity from this new parent to say, okay, I'm going to love you and be here and be a new energy in your life that's coming from a much healthier place. So if you let me, your life's going to get better. And I just think sometimes that's a very dangerous idea. Right? You don't want to get better. You want to feel familiar. And sometimes you don't trust it. Like, wait, can I really? Can I really. Is this real? And so you push, like we've seen, to say, I'm rejecting this before it rejects me. But with enough patience and understanding of that, you end up having an opportunity. I think that we have, where we now have these four kids who are all thriving and get everything that they understand, everything we're trying to provide in this new family unit. But it's taken a minute.

Gwyneth Paltrow (35:24)

Yeah, it took years, I would say.

Brad Falchuk (35:27)

Which Feels short to me. It feels like, I mean, listen, anything can happen with anything and you see it happen faster, but it feels like for it really to be real. And also if you're trying to counter whatever the, you know, whatever deep damage is done to, you know, to kids through whatever, you know, the pain of whatever their early life was and the pain, whatever their parents brought into that. It takes a minute.

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Gwyneth Paltrow (36:58)

How many years would you say it took us until everything really coalesced?

Brad Falchuk (37:03)

I would say it took, I don't know, five, six years. About that. Five, six years of really relentless work on our part. Like, you know, that was probably the conversations we had on our own individuals and shared therapies more often than any other one, you know. So then what would you say then, given a circumstance, right? So you have somebody who is a stepmom who, you know, loves their new husband and really wants to love his kids. And there are one of the kids is really having a hard time with it and is acting up. And let's say they're acting up at the dinner table just being difficult.

Gwyneth Paltrow (37:52)

Just for instance.

Brad Falchuk (37:53)

Just for instance, let's say they're deciding to be difficult at the dinner table and they're, you know, they're a young kid, right. They're barely even, not even a teenager yet.

Gwyneth Paltrow (38:01)

But this also does happen with people who are like 23. I've heard crazy stories.

Brad Falchuk (38:05)

Absolutely. So what do you do? How would you coach them through this?

Gwyneth Paltrow (38:11)

Well, I think it would depend on the age, but I think exactly what the tactic should be. But I would say the number one thing not to do is what I first did, which was just act like.

Brad Falchuk (38:26)

A child and Be petulant.

Gwyneth Paltrow (38:29)

Yeah. And slash or pretend everything was okay. Like, not name it. You know, like sometimes I look back to some of those dinners and instead of just sort of white knuckling through and trying to make a nice side conversation or something, I had just said, like, wow, this is really hard. Like, so and so seems to be having a really hard time. And I understand. And this is really weird and hard. Like, at least just being present and honest about what was happening. I. Again, like I said before, I would have. I don't know. It's like I always go back to this thing of, like, all the problems in my life have always come from me not saying what I instinctually know needed to be said in the moment. And that applies to this as well. Like, I think there were things that needed to be said in the moment that I didn't because I was trying to keep the peace. Or. And I think too, like, that making the decision to commit and fully, like, with all of your heart and soul, throw yourself into the situation. I think sometimes, too, it's like, well, this sucks. I don't know if it's. How can I. It's like, no, just that. Eradicate that line of thinking. It's like, I'm fully in this with my full body, all my heart, my head. Like, we're here. We've got to. You know, Because I think when you're hedging or like, how do we get into this mess? Just counterproductive. And like I said to you before, I wish I had just decided wholeheartedly earlier that your kids were my kids too, and treated them as such instead of tiptoeing around for a long time.

Brad Falchuk (40:18)

That makes sense.

Gwyneth Paltrow (40:19)

What about you? What would your advice be?

Brad Falchuk (40:23)

Well, if you're. If. If. I mean, I think, you know, there's. It's complicated after a divorce when you, you know, one of the. I think. I mean, the. I think people wait way longer than they would normally to get divorced if they have kids purely because they don't want to have the conversation with the kids saying, we're getting divorced. Right. They just, I'm not doing that. I'll do anything but that. Right. And so you end up a year, two years later. And so eventually you have that conversation and it's terrible. But then, you know, everything opens up after that. Then it's after that conversation, and then you're dealing with a new set of problems, but that's over. But I still think there's. Maybe this is just. For dads. There's inherent guilt that you've done this to them because you did it for them, because you knew they weren't growing up in an environment that was really good for them. But also you did it for yourself because you weren't happy and you couldn't be happy. And so as a parent, you want to never be selfish. You want to always say, my kids are first. And. And yet you've made a selfish choice. Not entirely selfish. Like I said, it's good for the ends up being good for them, too, if you're doing the right thing. And so in that space, there's a little bit of guilt. And so you say, well, of course they're unhappy. It's my fault. Look what I've done to them. And this new thing, of course I shouldn't be putting them in this. And so I now have to sort of be understanding a little bit of that and not understanding the right way, which is, okay, this is hard because it's hard for anybody, but this is hard because I'm terrible. That's a different conversation. Then you're useless. And they want to know, wait, did you do the right thing? Are you a selfish person? They kind of are looking at you for that reaction. And if you give them that, they're like, okay, now I'm totally screwed. Now I know the world is a mess because I see that I was right, that my dad does not feel comfortable with what the choices he's made. And so I think the key is to own it. You made the right choice. You made the right choice in getting divorced, hard as it was. You made the right choice in building a new family and with the new person. And so own that and be comfortable with that and confident in that. And that's a truth. And so if you give them that truth, they can relax because what they're saying is a lie. What they're saying is, everything is terrible and everybody hates me and nothing's going to work out. Why is this happening? That's a lie. And so if you hand them a truth, which is, no, everything is good. And you can trust me because I'm your dad or I'm your stepdad, trust me, I know what I'm doing. You don't want to walk up to the cockpit and see the pilot looking at everything, being like, I'm not totally sure what that button does, all these lights are going off. They want you to go up there and be like, you're looking. The plane is bouncing everywhere. And they're looking at you smiling as if nothing's going on right. That's what you want. So that's what they need to see from you, both sides. And I think that when you're a stepdad to kids, it's the same thing. They just want to know, okay, the truth is what we think it is, what our instinct is, which is that everything here is really good, that this is actually a good thing going to be for everybody, including my parent who isn't here right now, that everybody's going to win with this. And so that would be the advice. And I keep saying, go deal with your own stuff. It's like you have to be confident that you've made the right choice and that you can be who you need to be for them, for your step kids and your kids. A bit of a rant there, but.

Gwyneth Paltrow (44:02)

I like your rants.

Brad Falchuk (44:03)

What is the upside of step parenting?

Gwyneth Paltrow (44:08)

Well, in a way, you get to create something really new and beautiful out of something uncomfortable. Like, I love that, conceit that so much, you know, that everybody in our family had the agency to help co create what we were doing. And of course, like in every storybook it started in, you know, there were good things and there were rocky things, but it's been amazing for me to watch all four kids kind of grow into this and embrace it. And it's almost like the payoff is kind of greater when it's your step kid, you know, than your own kid. Because I don't know why, but I guess because it's not as, in a way, what's the word I'm looking for? It's not like as natural of a relationship, right? It's like. And you're able to create something with this kid that is not your kid, but then becomes one of your kids. And very much like, I get so much joy out of my relationship with your children. Like, I. They are, they mean so much to me. They have such different personalities to my own kids. They bring such a great other thing to the dinner table. You know, they're brilliant, they're opinionated, they're, you know, really unique kids. And you know, I always said, like my dad used to say the only regret he had in his entire life was not having more kids. And I felt like that for a long time until I got yours too. You know, I got to tack on.

Brad Falchuk (46:03)

Do you remember a moment when that sunk in?

Gwyneth Paltrow (46:09)

I feel like, where were we when it was like we were all maybe away or it was like we had a dinner or something, or maybe it was like, maybe it was around the dinner table in Brentwood, when it was like, after the whole college thing and the girls were graduating and we had, like. It was like, it started to just feel really light and really cohesive. And since then, we've had so many moments like that, you know, and I feel like it keeps deepening and getting. I don't know, there's just, like. It's a. It's such a particular kind of delight, you know, to see, like, our four kids in their own relationships and being friends with each other and loving each other. Do you feel like you remember any moment like that?

Brad Falchuk (47:01)

I mean, you know, I. I remember the moment, like a moment like that. For me, I can't remember exactly what the story was, but you told me a story about Apple, wanted to do something, and she's told you. I just really. I just want to make sure that Brad would be okay with this.

Gwyneth Paltrow (47:25)

Right?

Brad Falchuk (47:25)

And I was like, wow, okay, that means a lot. You know, that I'm. You know that it worked, right. That I'm in her head in that way. Right. Like the way you wouldn't want to disappoint a dad. And she would know it was something related to school or something, or taking a class or switching a major or something, and she just wanted to make sure that she wouldn't be letting me down, which I was just. She wasn't. But I think something like that really was meaningful. Do you think that, you know, there's something. I don't know, it's almost like when you look at some. When you look at the kids of the person you love, it's like the ways they're an extension of the person you love. It's like you get to love.

Gwyneth Paltrow (48:19)

Yeah.

Brad Falchuk (48:19)

All those parts of them even more.

Gwyneth Paltrow (48:21)

It's true. It's really true. Especially like, you know, the hurt parts or the, you know, it's like. It's a very surreal thing, you know, because it's like they are of you, but not of the other. Right. Not of me. It's cool.

Brad Falchuk (48:43)

I think that we. I think that we, whether conscious or unconsciously, started focusing on some rituals as a family that really help create this cohesive idea. What do you think those were and how intentional were we about it, do you think?

Gwyneth Paltrow (49:04)

I think we were. We started slow and we were pretty intentional. We made sure that we had. The six of us had dinner every Wednesday night, you know, through good times and bad, through sunshine and rain, and every. Every one of the four kids knew that it was sacred. We knew it was sacred. We said no to everything else, to the point where in my mom group chat, they'd be like, what night can we meet for so and so's birthday? Obviously not Wednesday. But I think what that does is sort of carve out this world that we all step into. Obviously we're major, like, no electronics at the table. But that was a very sacred, delineated time for us every week. And a lot of times they balked and tried to get out of it, and we. We just were consistent with it. And now it's, you know, now it's like when we're all together having dinner, there's this. There's all this history there, you know, which you can feel, which is very cool.

Brad Falchuk (50:08)

But is that. Is that something that good or bad? It's important to create history in a family.

Gwyneth Paltrow (50:15)

I mean, I don't want to be prescriptive, but I think it was like, one of the reasons that, you know, when our kids all started going to the same school, and for some of them, it was a tricky thing that they would be going to the same school. I thought ultimately this is a really good thing because high school is finite. And at some point they're going to be, you know, 27 or 41 or. Or whatever, and they're going to be like, remember Mrs. So and so. Well, it wouldn't. Not because it was our school used first names, but, like, remember when Connie did this and that, you know, and they would have this undeniable sort of structure that was like, shared life and shared experience and shared references. And I do think that's valuable. It's like, that's what being a sibling is, right? It's like we grew up in the same crazy house at the same time, and, like, they'll have. That they'll have. And I think it just. So I think my personal opinion is even when there could be landmines or it's difficult. Like, I do think it's important to lay down that scaffolding that, you know, it's like you're building a house altogether, and there are certain tools and materials you need, and that's like time together and rituals and meaning and.

Brad Falchuk (51:42)

Do you think. I mean, one thing we did that was maybe a little bit different was we didn't actually. We got married and then didn't move in together for a year. Would you have done that? Done the same thing this time?

Gwyneth Paltrow (51:52)

I don't think so. I mean, I think at the time we really felt like we were doing the right thing. We were trying to kind of land the plane very, very gently and slowly and get everybody on board. But I'm not sure that it didn't just prolong that thing of, like, we don't know what we're doing. What do you think?

Brad Falchuk (52:17)

Yeah, I think that's right. I think it just gives. I think it just gives the kids too much power.

Gwyneth Paltrow (52:22)

Too much power? Yeah.

Brad Falchuk (52:24)

Which is the opposite of what you want to do. You want them to have agency. I think, again, like, as you say, don't be prescriptive. I think them having agency is really important, but power to actually keep these two adults from living together. I think it was a bridge too far. I just think it. I think it didn't. I think it made them more uncomfortable and more like, okay, this is not something that is solid.

Gwyneth Paltrow (52:51)

I think that's right. I think looking back, we might have done that differently.

Brad Falchuk (52:55)

Yeah. And everybody's different. So if you were sort of thinking about this now from years, years, years on and all the kids are out of the house and everybody's doing well, what do you think this experience taught you beyond being a parent?

Gwyneth Paltrow (53:16)

I think, you know, as cheesy as it sounds, that, like, love really is always the answer, pretty much. And intellectualizing or, you know, bartering or, you know, compromising in air quotes, like, I just think in life, if you can ascend to the point where you love and forgive all the time, like, that's sort of the ideal state. I'm not saying that I'm able to do that all the time, but it did sort of show me the way, you know, it did, like, show me the path, which I admittedly need to adhere to more. And I'm so incredibly grateful to your kids for that. You know, Like, I feel like they really helped me understand sort of what the point of all this is.

Brad Falchuk (54:18)

But the point of all of being.

Gwyneth Paltrow (54:21)

Alive is to keep finding love and connection and meaning, especially when it's not intuitive, especially when there are friction points, especially when something feels off. It's like, how do you do that? How do you lean into that? It's a really worthwhile exercise. What about you?

Brad Falchuk (54:48)

I think it's something. What I probably learned the most is what you said earlier is, like, really getting in touch with whatever you know, who you truly are, and embodying that as a human, a man, a father, a parent of any kind, and that you just need to be consistent with that one thing. And that exists everywhere it happens to exist outside of actually being a parent. Like, those are things that exist at work, with friends, and in traffic, all these things, and to sort of trust that instinct and be patient about it. Patient with yourself. Be patient with the situation. I just remember before the boys left for college, the night before, I think somebody was going. One of the girls was going first. So it was like the last night we had a last. And it happened to be on a Wednesday. We had a last Wednesday night dinner.

Gwyneth Paltrow (55:46)

That's right.

Brad Falchuk (55:48)

And I don't think the kids said two words to us because they were so yapping with each other and having such a good time. And we were sitting at the end of the table just looking over at them, being like, oh, my gosh, it worked. Yeah, it worked, right? But we never would have believed it would have worked. It was gonna work early on. No, but with that consistency and with that belief in what the truth was, you know, it worked for us.

Gwyneth Paltrow (56:17)

Wow. Thank you so much, Brad, for being my partner on the GOOP podcast today.

Brad Falchuk (56:22)

Well, thank you so much for being my partner in this family.

Gwyneth Paltrow (56:26)

Thank you. Creating this blended family has been one of the most challenging and expansive experiences, really, of my entire life. I can't think of another scenario that asks so much of us. Patience, generosity, humility, and grace. For sure. Grace. And it's also opened my heart in ways that I never expected. So if you're moving through something similar, maybe this gave you a moment of recognition. But in any event, thank you always for being here with me. And we will see you next week. This has been a presentation of Cadence 13 Studios. I hope you'll listen, follow, rate, and review all of our episodes, which are available for free on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts.