← the goop podcast
Loading summary
Transcript134 lines
- [00:02]
Gwyneth Paltrow
You know what I find myself doing more and more? Just sitting with things, not rushing to a conclusion. When I'm researching longevity protocols or trying to understand conflicting studies on hormone therapy, I need something that can go as deep as I want to go. That's why I've been using Clawd. Try Clawd for free at Clawd AI Goop and see why the world's best, best problem solvers choose Claude as their thinking partner.
- [00:33]
Advertisement Voice
It's time to rethink your screen time. The light your phone emits actually matters. The red light converter from bodyguards transforms blue light into red light, which is gentler on your eyes, more skin friendly and supportive of better sleep. Same phone, smarter light Shop the red light Converter now on goop.com
- [00:52]
Gwyneth Paltrow
when you
- [00:53]
Emily Hickey
are pioneering anything or introducing new ideas
- [00:56]
Goop Executive / Host
to the culture, you get criticized. You do?
- [00:59]
Emily Hickey
Yeah.
- [00:59]
Goop Executive / Host
Did you hear about that?
- [01:01]
Guest or Participant
I didn't find the one. I found someone I respected and we made it the one.
- [01:06]
Goop Executive / Host
In the sort of longing kind of
- [01:07]
Emily Hickey
view of love, people understand each other
- [01:10]
Goop Executive / Host
as if by magic.
- [01:11]
Guest or Participant
Nothing in itself is addictive on the one hand. On the other hand, everything could be addictive if there's an emptiness in that person that needs to be filled.
- [01:19]
Emily Hickey
I now know that nobody changes until
- [01:22]
Goop Executive / Host
they change their energy. And when you change your energy, you change your life.
- [01:27]
Gwyneth Paltrow
I'm Gwyneth Paltrow. This is the GOOP Podcast, bringing together thought leaders, culture changers, creatives, founders and CEOs, scientists, doctors, healers and seekers. Here to start conversations. Because simply asking questions and listening has the power to change the way we see the world. Here we go. Welcome to the GOOP Podcast. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow, and today I'm joined by someone who has rare gift for taking what feels intangible instinct, taste, identity, and translating it into something you can live by. We talk about the principles that shape how you move through the world and the personal values that become your North Star. In moments that test you, we explore how these show up in everyday life and why defining your own codes, especially in seasons of reinvention, can be one of the most clarifying exercises you can do. Back to kick off the Pursuit series, a special series within the GOOP Podcast centered on identity, intention, and the pursuit of a meaningful life. She's a brilliant marketer, visionary, strategist, and an angel on my shoulder. Emily Hickey.
- [02:43]
Goop Executive / Host
Emily Hickey, welcome back to the GOOP Podcast.
- [02:47]
Emily Hickey
Hi, Gwyneth.
- [02:48]
Goop Executive / Host
It's always such a pleasure to have you on. For those of you who may not know, Emily yet we've done a couple podcasts together and Emily is a brilliant marketer and strategist and angel on my shoulder over here@goop.com and I really. Emily has brought so much clarity and wisdom to my business life through, through the lens of all kinds of, you know, through astrology, through history, through culture. And so a while back we decided it would be great to bring her on to the pod. And excitingly, she's doing an extra series for us called the Pursuit Series. So for those of you who are interested in these more personal and meaningful things around business, business development, like tying the, the soul to your, your work and your life's purpose, and a number of other subjects, you can look for Emily on the the Goop podcast, the Pursuit Series, which is very exciting. Today. I think we would like to talk a little bit about codes in life. Codes in the, the codes that we ascribe ourselves in terms of the way we want to walk through the world, how we find meaning in our own lives through these codes that we develop. And also, interestingly, how that's pulled down into brand. If you're, if you're building a brand, how you create tangible brand codes that are able to telegraph important and emotional information about who you are as a brand. And I think it's interesting because, you know, in this day and age where, you know, of course we mean this, this applies to any consumer brand or any consumer facing brand, but I think, you know, we're also living in a time in an economy where everybody ostensibly has a brand, right? Quote, unquote. Like people are getting noticed more on LinkedIn if they have, you know, a personal brand or if they're bringing a personal brand to work. So I don't know, I might, I think I would love to talk to you about that today. And I think it would be interesting to start with the importance of thinking about one's like, how do we codify what's important to us in our own lives? So starting out, you know, most broadly, how do you think we can begin that exercise?
- [05:39]
Emily Hickey
Well, I mean, I've, I've been obsessing over. I mean, of course we do brand work, both of us, and so codes is a word that we use all the time, you know, But I've been really thinking about it lately because it seems to be so absent from culture at the moment. And so what is a code? It is a system of principles or rules that dictates behavior or how you make decisions, or in the case of a brand, it could dictate Products, signature elements, you know, things that are not negotiable about what you are.
- [06:08]
Goop Executive / Host
Right.
- [06:09]
Emily Hickey
So it's something that should provide prescriptive clarity for behavior. And it's a personal sort of constitution around how we act. But it's also collective right. That we as Gen X, as women, regardless of the age. I think GOOP really does play a role in this. Is what is the shared language of expectations and accountability that dictate the way we behave. And a code is meaningless if when challenged, it integrates. A code is something that is non negotiable and it's something that I think also is the source of self respect and of meaning in life. And we still have so far to go in terms of seeing women in society as having an inner life and agency and not just being something that's objectified by men, but also the standard by which men's morals are measured. That's often how women are deployed is. As is the woman, as is the town. But that's. Sure, you know, but what about the woman herself and her own inner life? And that's why I think more than ever a group is very, very important. Because that's what you've been, that's what you stand for as a brand is the agency of women.
- [07:15]
Goop Executive / Host
Yeah. Like we can be upending systems, traditions, laws, and it just kind of doesn't matter. Right. So it seems to me that it also comes, obviously that comes from a whole series of reactions around the state of how things have been economically, et cetera, but this sort of moral reprehensibility that is that we're seeing in certain pockets because it's been excused in this nothing matters kind of culture. I think the antidote is exactly what you're saying. Personal moral coding. Personal. Like the personal construction of right and wrong. Right.
- [08:09]
Emily Hickey
Yep.
- [08:10]
Goop Executive / Host
Irrespective of political opinions or reactions to things like, okay, I'm not going to excuse something because my party, left or right, excuses it.
- [08:22]
Emily Hickey
Yeah.
- [08:22]
Goop Executive / Host
How does this land with me? How does this land in terms of the person that I want to be in the world going forward, like the place from which I take action from. I feel like this is, you know, so to contemplate your moral center and then build codes that reinforce that. Right. Because we all do need structure of some kind. I think is really helpful to think about what are, what are, what are my brand codes? Right. Like if I were to ask you this question, what, what are your personal brand codes?
- [09:02]
Emily Hickey
Yep. So I think that I try to genuinely have integrity and, and to be a good person and not hurt other people. And I think that I try to be somebody who other people can count on and. And when given the choice of instant gratification versus doing the thing that is the healthy right thing to do, that respects another person's life and dignity and my own dignity, that I would shoot, that I would. That I would turn down the instant gratification and do the hard thing, which is even in private, you know, like the thing I've been thinking of. I helped build this nonprofit a long time ago and at the time donated a helicopter that. To help protect parkland in Cambodia. We never publicized it. She never asked us to publicize it. What do you do in private that gets you no points in public when in the face of X, you did what? Right? So I would say that that's something I. I really have tried to be, is somebody who in. In private behaves in a very moral way. And I try never to sacrifice. I don't care, actually. I'm just not a power person in general. I actually don't understand that temptation. But with certainly, you know, money and ego and, you know, how do you. How do you put those on the second rung of the ladder and put the right thing to do above that and respecting the dignity of other people's lives in your own life? So those are codes for me, I would say. What about you?
- [10:31]
Goop Executive / Host
You know, it's. It's interesting because. So for so much of my life, I was programmed, like, in a certain way. I think you and I, you know, grew up in a time when we weren't as young women allowed to completely dismantle ideas of. About who we were meant to be. So we lived. We lived in these codes that were ascribed to us and put on us, right? So it was really only around the time I turned 40 that I started to question just the very idea of like, who am I? What do I want? What's tolerable to me, what's intolerable to me? I had lived the first half or whatever, it will end up being of my life acting out other people's codes. And I think that. So as opposed to, you know, approaching things from who am I? What is true for me? How can I be the most in integrity all the time? By having my words and actions be completely aligned, no space between what is expected of me. What. What would the. What is the right thing to do here? How can. How will people perceive of me if X, Y and Z. And it's actually been really liberating to become a person who Lives totally from my codes. And I think my codes are I will always, you know, want to do the right thing. Like that is just endemic to who I am. And, and, but now it becomes more from I want to do the right thing because that's what makes my cells vibrate at the frequency that makes my whole body feel good, not because I'm going to get in trouble if I don't do the right thing. And so interestingly, you know, that, that has made me a person who, I think like part of my coding is around self expression, individualism, it's around boundaries, it's. And then it's, it's also, you know, humor, irreverence, kindness, self exploration, those things. Like, I really try to move through the world from those places and I think I do very much. Like, it's a, I'm a work in progress. I'm always center, going back to the center to think, okay, how could I have done this better? This, you know, this happened. I really don't feel good about it. You know, next time, what would I do? I think it's like a very key part of my code is. I don't know, it's. It's like almost like it's such a. There's such bad language for it. Like, but it's around that idea of improving from the place of, you know, wanting to continue to ascend as opposed to trying to be, you know, letting go of the perfectionism part, you know, do you know what I mean? Does that make sense?
- [13:46]
Emily Hickey
Yeah, it does make sense. Yeah, I agree. And this self, self improvement is such a strong code.
- [13:53]
Goop Executive / Host
I mean, I hate that phrase. But you know, like, what's a better.
- [13:58]
Emily Hickey
Well, it's the project of self, you know, and it's a. I think it's a position of personal responsibility and discipline and that there's self governance to it. You are such a discipline. You're one of the, maybe the most disciplined person I know. Like, okay, women are no longer in our generation, right? We can do whatever we want with our career. We can dress however we want, we can self express however we want. We can get married, we can get divorced. We can do this, do that, you know, so without that cultural kind of imprinting of what we're supposed to be. So let's say women are more free now than we've ever been. The only meaning, freedom can only be meaningful with self governance. Right. And I think that, but just that there's a personal responsibility as a human being to live in a way that involves self governance and Personal responsibility, and that. That's an instinctual thing, too, of being born and having a sense of who you can be and that there's a responsibility to develop that. So. And through clothes, which is what we're sort of going to talk about today, is how. How do women use clothes as a lever to articulate themselves or to move themselves forward? And that's how you and I, that's how we started thinking about codes in the first place, was when we were sort of pivoting G label into Gwyn, and we used a brand coding exercise to do that. And so then we just got off on this kick of thinking about codes and personal invention or reinvention and how to assess yourself and keep pushing yourself forward in sort of a deliberate, methodical way.
- [15:41]
Goop Executive / Host
Yeah.
- [15:41]
Emily Hickey
With. Yeah. Clothes being one of the ways that women do that.
- [15:44]
Goop Executive / Host
It's so interesting. Like, clothes for, you know, it could sound, you know, and it is. Obviously clothes are a material thing, but for me, for some reason, like, it's such an important tool of what you're talking about, of expression and grounding, you know, and when I think about the ways in which, like, the consistencies and the way that I've. I've dressed and expressed myself, it's kind of interesting. Right. It's like, I know we talk about clothes that are. You know, it's sort of like, oh, it's clothes. But when you really think about using clothing as your calling card to, like, what you're telegraphing to the world about yourself, I find it really fascinating.
- [16:33]
Emily Hickey
I do, too. I think the two biggies for women are clothes and decor. And it's the way. It's a. It's a way of expressing your own wholeness and looking at it, you know, like when you finish a room and you look at it, you know, like, sort of obsessively, the pleasure that you get out of that, you know, like, it's because you're. You're externalizing your own wholeness, and it's an example of it, and it's a moment of it. And clothes, I think, do the same thing.
- [17:00]
Goop Executive / Host
Yeah. And you know what? I think what was so interesting for me about the exercise that we did? Was it last summer or the summer before?
- [17:08]
Emily Hickey
It was last summer.
- [17:09]
Goop Executive / Host
It was last summer. What was so interesting about the exercise that we did was sort of looking at, like, when you look at your. When you look at your personality, I guess, right through the lens of, like, how you've expressed yourself through clothes, and you kind of make an exercise out of it. It's it's really like, it was so much fun to do it. And I think I, I had never done that. Right. Like, when, when we were doing G Label for all those years, like, I knew in an unarticulated way what I was trying to do, but I never sat down and sort of said, like, this is. Here it is. These are. These are the things. And, you know, I've. Some people ask me, like, why did you. Why did you want to rename G Label? Why was that important to you? And I think, you know, it was kind of a generic name, and I think it also didn't reflect how personal that vertical is and how much I invest in it, think about it, love it, wear it. And I wanted it to be more reflective of. Of that. You know, I think, like, it sounded like it was a private label or, or something like it, you know, or. I, I just, I. It had always bothered me, I guess. So I finally had the guts to make the change and. And then it was so interesting to sit with you and have you put me through this exercise of like, okay, well, what does it mean? And how. And what are we going to sew into the literal garments that will reflect these attributes?
- [18:59]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Right.
- [18:59]
Goop Executive / Host
I had never looked at it this way. So will you tell me a little bit about how you learned about brand coding and what brands opened your eyes to this? So how you started thinking about it this way.
- [19:11]
Emily Hickey
So, by the way, that was one of the most fun things I did all year. I really, really.
- [19:15]
Goop Executive / Host
We had fun.
- [19:16]
Emily Hickey
We did have fun. And it was all. I mean, it's almost a universal. It was specific to you and to Gwen, but it's also universal in terms of what is a modern woman and what is your vision of that? How does it come out in these clothes? How is that shared across all of us? It was really, really cool.
- [19:31]
Goop Executive / Host
And I'm to double click on any of that, you know, at any point?
- [19:34]
Emily Hickey
Well, yeah, I, I think that would be really cool. So I think women would be really interested and I think they'd really relate to it. But basically, you know, we had, I mean, brand codes is a. Is a known thing doing brand work. Again, it's that sort of inviolate, you know, charter for yourself, you know, that that is always true, you know, and that you're always reinterpreting. And as. As the Hermes people are so good at how you. You have to change to stay the same. But what's the kernel of what you're changing? You know, that is always the same as just reinterpreted in a way that embraces the present. Right.
- [20:06]
Goop Executive / Host
Yeah.
- [20:07]
Emily Hickey
And that's what they're so good at. They're never nostalgic. Right. Which is a thinking of like yesterday is better. They're always. It's heritage. It's embracing, reinterpreting, embracing the present. But anyway, so the two great examples, I think, make this really clear. One is that we had just sort of come across this through the grapevine, was that Tory Burch, when they were elevating, so everybody knows, has been very covered. It's such a scaled company. It's this huge global company. At this point, they felt that they had lost their soul or that they needed to re elevate, which has been very commercially successful in the exercise. A few people have described to us the exercise that they did to drive that reinvention was they reassessed their own brand codes and redefined it. Right. And so for an apparel company, a brand code dictates product design. Right. So what are the signature elements of this and how do they show up in a shirt? What makes it. We're not just going to bring a shirt to the market. It's going to be different because it's Gwen. So what's different about it and why? Right. The brand could tell you that.
- [21:03]
Goop Executive / Host
Give me an example of how that would. Like, so at Tory Burch, like, you know, they. I know they kind of reoriented around like the 70s, sort of like chic, mainline kind of a thing. Like, so how would. How would you pull. Can you quickly define sort of what they oriented around and then how they pulled it into a shirt, for example?
- [21:27]
Emily Hickey
So it was a war room exercise. Go like, similar to what we did with you and your life and your inspirations. And so it's a war room exercise. Okay, let's get everything up on the four walls of this room.
- [21:36]
Goop Executive / Host
Right.
- [21:37]
Emily Hickey
Tori's childhood. I wasn't there obviously, but I mean, I've heard about it from multiple people. Tori's childhood, mainline, Philly, her grandmother, the seventies, orange clashing colors. Right. Gold, big bold geometric prints. Right. Whatever it is. Right. But. But starting with like the inspiration coming from her childhood and things that define for her her own look and what. You know, so it's visual. And then you start to crunch that down into a set of design principles that, that are going to, again, like, if you're going to take a cardigan to market, there are enough cardigans in the world. We don't need another cardigan. What's different about a Gwen cardigan or A Tory Burch cardigan, that her cardigan would have a clashing color happening around the cuff or, you know, that.
- [22:17]
Goop Executive / Host
That.
- [22:18]
Emily Hickey
That it would red thread its way through the design decisions. Or with Chanel, that there's always a ribbon. Or with Hermes, there's a lot of leather, but then there's also silk and there's equestrian and there's, you know, so what are the elements of this brand that are just total DNA that get threaded through as design as consistent? Right.
- [22:37]
Goop Executive / Host
So cool.
- [22:38]
Emily Hickey
It is cool. It is cool. Yeah. And there's always a psychology behind it, too, because these brands like YSL or Armani or, you know, how intellectual they are and that there's just a true psychology to a brand. And what you're trying to. Like with Hermes, I was just. There was a great article in the Journal about them recently and, like, how they're trying to be understated, flattering and emboldening. You know that. And that is how I perceive that brand. You know, so who do you become? How does it make women feel that they're trying to translate some kind of psychology into the clothes as well as literal physical design elements like a grosgrain ribbon or a, you know, contrasting color at the cuff or whatever it's going to be. Right. So it's a. If you do this correctly, you end up with a set of principles that drive consistent visual design elements. Like we've talked about with Gwynne, big masculine pockets. Like, you know, we ended up with our visual design elements that will be threaded through the designs. It also tells you what are the key items. So, like, we went back to your life. Of course, travel is a huge theme, so we should have a great travel blazer or the perfect jogger, which I think still doesn't exist in the world.
- [23:42]
Goop Executive / Host
It's coming. I know it's coming.
- [23:44]
Emily Hickey
I really. I really need it. I keep trying to find the perfect jogger, but it also tells you the psychology and who. Who the woman becomes when she wears the clothes. And so when we. And the other great and consistent. The consistency of execution is very important. And so the other great example is Kiehl's, and when they got bought by Estee Lauder or whoever it was, they went from being like 13 stores and a cult thing to having to be scaled globally. And so they developed retail brand codes that with all the store rollouts they were going to do, there was going to be a skeleton and a lab coat. Why? Because it transmits clinical strength. Right. Which you can appreciate as being the founder of A beauty brand that is something that you're always trying to translate. There has to be a brick wall that looks like it came from Williamsburg and a very urban kind of brick wall, exposed brick wall. There has to be a crystal chandelier that looks like it came of a flea market in Paris. There has to be a wall of photos on the brick wall that is tailored to the community, to bring the community into the store. So if it's a young family neighborhood, you'd have pictures of people, parent, young parents with strollers. If it's a singles neighborhood, you'd have pictures of people and their dogs. Right. As a way to bring the community in. And then they can tailor the store to the, to the neighborhood from there. But those five brand codes always have to be there. So it, again, it's these non negotiable DNA elements of something that get translated out aesthetically and psychologically. So then what we did was we started visually with you. You pulled together this whole mile long Pinterest, you know, mood board, which was fascinating to see, you know, in terms of all the, what you love in clothes, you know, and the pictures of yourself that you really like and the women who you think are really inspiring. And so that was sort of the first fork of the visual exercise. The second one was more of like a, a psychological one of attitudes and vibe. And that's the one where we did that free association of looking at a picture that we liked and you would just like say phrases which I like were incredible. So that was sort of the second thing to like capture the who do you become? You know, and then we laddered it from there.
- [25:58]
Gwyneth Paltrow
You know what I find myself doing more and more, just sitting with things, not rushing to a conclusion. When I'm researching longevity protocols or trying to understand conflicting studies on hormone therapy, I need something that can go as deep as I want to go. That's why I've been using Claude. Claude doesn't just hand me a tiny a tidy answer and move on. It works through the complexity with me. If I'm reading a 200 page research paper, Claude can analyze the whole thing and help me understand what the data actually says, not what someone wants it to say. And I trust what I'm getting. Clod is built to be balanced, not to feed you whatever keeps you engaged. No algorithmic agenda, just thinking. Try Claude for free at Claude AI Goop and see why the world's best problem solvers choose Claude as their thinking partner. I just got back from a trip that reminded me why travel is Such a powerful reset. Slow mornings, long walks through local towns, nights in cooking. I love staying in homes that feel lived in and in the best way. Real kitchens, sunlight pouring in space to actually settle. Not just somewhere to sleep, but another way to shape your experience away. This recent trip really made me think
- [27:24]
Goop Executive / Host
about home in a new way.
- [27:26]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Instead of leaving your home sitting empty, you could host your home on Airbnb while you're traveling. It's kind of a beautiful exchange. Someone else gets to feel at home in a space you like, love, and you're offering that sense of connection to someone new. When I book a stay, I'm always drawn to places that feel grounded, well designed, and easy to spend real time in. And it's nice to think that while you're off discovering somewhere new, your home could be earning a bit of extra income, maybe toward your next trip or a project you've been dreaming about. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.
- [28:10]
Goop Executive / Host
You know, I think it's. It's funny, right? Because, like, when you're a creative that runs a business, you are driving off of instinct all the time, and it's always. It's always challenging to try to operationalize your instinct. Right? And so that's kind of what this was like. I'd never sat down and thought about, you know, oh, like, Right. What is this juxtaposition of, like, masculinity and femininity showing skin but also having a tomboy thing. Right. Like, always finding the woman underneath the clothes. Like, always wanting to feel. Right. Like the. The sex underneath the work suit. Right. Like, it's a very. It became a very psychological, emotional contemplation of how clothes are able to, in success, bring forth those aspects of yourself that you are striving to show or that, you know, need to remind you of, of who you are. Right. Like, I remember when I was, you know, going out and fundraising in the early days of goop and, you know, being in these, like, boys club rooms and, you know, dressing the way I dress, which is that particular at the axis of, you know, masculinity and femininity. But, like, making sure that, you know, I felt like, oh, I have nice underwear on. I know that I'm a woman under here, you know, like, I'm comfortable and there's something, even if it's not facing out, you know, like, I'm. I'm remembering that I'm a woman. And not so for. And for me, that was like. Because I think especially then, you know, There was intimidation around having a. A brand that was by women, for women. And, you know, you're trying to sort of find these ways to connect with these tech bros. And for me, it was really important to remember my femininity as well.
- [30:24]
Emily Hickey
Yeah, I, I love that and I think so. Yeah, the, the insta. The codification of instinct. That is what brand codes do. And it is the great. I think that when companies really do well and they never get lost and they always do the right thing is because they took the time to codify that. You know, this is who we are, this is who we stand for, this is what we do, this is how we show up. And so codifying your concept of yourself in a way that could be universal and they could translate to clothes. And so like I told you, I've got boxes of sweaters I'm putting back to the real, real right now because I've gotten hooked on Gwen sweaters. But it. Because. Because they make me feel a certain way. Like, you can cut a sweater a lot of different ways, but what's the way that you cut it? That gives it attitude, you know, and that makes somebody feel a certain way when they look in the mirror.
- [31:13]
Gwyneth Paltrow
That.
- [31:14]
Goop Executive / Host
How does it make you feel? Just out of curiosity.
- [31:17]
Emily Hickey
I mean, it makes me feel baller. You know, I like is the mix of feminine and there's always some. The way that the, that the sweaters tuck in and tuck out and fall out and are oversized or are like. It just makes me feel cool and chic and like I'm not trying very hard. And masculine, feminine, and things have to be cut. Well, I think especially at our age, like you, you can't. Like, things have to be cut well and they have to look expensive, like they kind of do because, I don't know, I don't think you need a lot of clothes, but I think you need good clothes if you're doing a certain thing with your life. And yeah, I think that, that the clothes succeed in what you were trained. Of course, like, a lot of this is really going to hit. The waves are going to hit the shore even a year from now in terms of the full collections, probably starting this fall. I mean, it takes a minute.
- [32:11]
Goop Executive / Host
Yeah.
- [32:12]
Emily Hickey
But even now I think that you've built a lot of that feeling and attitude. But I have the slide pulled up if you. Oh, fun to show the attitude. I. This really inspired me.
- [32:24]
Goop Executive / Host
This is like deep, deep, deep behind the scenes.
- [32:27]
Emily Hickey
But this was so this, this was like.
- [32:29]
Goop Executive / Host
So I, I found these pictures, right, of like, women that Inspired me. And then you asked me, like, what is it about every single one? Like, talk to me about why you put this on the board.
- [32:40]
Emily Hickey
There are a couple of key ones, like you had said, the idea of boobs, you know, which really I understood because. And the one below that I thought was so important too, that women don't dress for men. Right. Women dress for other women. We all know that. And that if you're too sexual in the way that you present yourself, you drive away other women, you know?
- [33:03]
Goop Executive / Host
Yeah, yeah.
- [33:05]
Emily Hickey
But there's a hint of it, you know, like the idea of friends being in cahoots towards a shared standard code, a shared language in a way that. An attitude of our generation or the friend group or whatever that's. That we're trying to put forward. But that, I thought was a really cool thing to build in here.
- [33:22]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Yeah.
- [33:22]
Goop Executive / Host
I mean, I think, just going back to the first thing, you know, I think it was interesting for me to sort of sharpen why the thinking around why, like, that picture of Jane Birkin to me is so perfect. It's like, you know, you've got. Yes. You have the. I, You. You see the woman underneath. Like, you see the. You see who she is and the sort of, like, insouciance with which she's carrying herself, the confidence. But there's also something quite boyish, which I think does not alienate women. Right. It's like to your. To what you were saying, it's like if you. And this is not. I'm just talking about. This is like, this is me. This is my thing. Like, I. I don't hold it against any woman or any brand that wants to really, you know, like, overtly sexualize themselves or, you know, or do that through clothes. Like, that's. That's great. And I have. I have friends who love to dress like that. And. But for. For me, I think because women relationships are so important to me, what I uncovered was that. And I hadn't even thought about it before, but I don't dress in a way that is sort of evolutionarily threatening to other women. Right. You know what I'm saying?
- [34:45]
Emily Hickey
Right? No, exactly. Yeah. I love that. That's the psychology. And like, so. And you can think about already how that would translate to visual brand codes and personal brand codes of, like, that's. That's who I am, that's who I represent. So when I get dressed, I'm going to start to experiment with or deliberately think about how to have these juxtapositions. You know, there's Masculine, feminine. There's like the perfect dial setting of femininity or sexuality and not trying too hard, living in the moment, like doing something impulsive, you know, like in an awesome way. Like how, what you can imagine also how those could be personal brand customers.
- [35:24]
Goop Executive / Host
You know, I used to, when I was young and lucky enough to be around like Hollywood legends, you know, these women that I saw, I think that were really influential to me in terms of like knowing themselves, dressing as themselves and this idea that I don't need to try to be young, like I am whole I. And I am so fucking cool and like, you'll understand in 20 years. You know what I mean? Like that.
- [35:58]
Emily Hickey
Yeah, Yep. It's a total expression of self confidence and just knowing who she is and not pandering to anything externally at all. The inner life thing, you know, and all of this too, by the way. Like you have codes around photography, model selection, the styling closet, the hair, you know, and so, and again, you're always reinterpreting, but that these are the, this is the psychological attitude of this brand, you know?
- [36:25]
Goop Executive / Host
Yeah.
- [36:25]
Emily Hickey
So how do you capture that? You know, how do you capture a woman in a life.
- [36:29]
Goop Executive / Host
Right.
- [36:29]
Emily Hickey
That's very different than typical fashion photography, which is typically shot in a studio. How, how do you capture a woman's inner life or the intellectual exploration of herself or the values exploration, Trying to keep integrity at like no space between, you know, the mistakes that, how do you capture that? You know, but that's important here, obviously. Substance.
- [36:54]
Goop Executive / Host
Yeah, it's such a cool exercise. Right. It's like I sort of dress like this, but I had never, I had never sat down and sort of thought through or said out loud, what are the kind of psychological or emotional motivations behind things.
- [37:11]
Emily Hickey
Yeah, it's so important, it's so important to get your hands around because I think it's hard to be defensible as a brand if you do not have your hands around that, because that's a thing that you can own, you know, there is no other you or there's, you know, like it's a point of view that if you express it well, you know, through the clothes and the key items and the signature detailing and the photography and everything else, then you, you create something that's very ownable and you really have succeeded when you give people, like we talked about this on another one in the context of Apple, a self image to, to step into, you know.
- [37:44]
Goop Executive / Host
Yeah, yeah.
- [37:45]
Emily Hickey
Where they become bigger, you know, and that, that, that is, that's the cahoots thing. Of the brand with the customers. You know, it, it's being in cahoots around a definition of a woman that they, that resonates with them, you know, step into and by wearing the clothes you're becoming that, you know.
- [38:03]
Goop Executive / Host
So like for example, this is kind of an interesting thing because I don't, I have never seen or heard a friend say like, you know, I want to dress like X, therefore I'm going to go look for clothes that will reflect that. Right. It's like your instincts drive you towards what you like and so it almost becomes this subconscious expression of what you're trying to telegraph. Right. I mean, have you ever thought like, okay, today I'm gonna go out into the world dressed as a. This. No. It's like you, you're, you're, you're walking through multi brand store and you instinctually are drawn to something, a color, a silhouette, the idea of something. So do you think that people's like, what is the relationship between that instinct and your psychology around who you want to be or are trying to convey that you are?
- [39:09]
Emily Hickey
Well, I think that people don't think that methodically about themselves. Of course, nobody thinks like that, but the brands do. And that's why I think the brands are obviously holding up mirrors to all of us. That, that the brands, if they're doing their job right, you know, have a code and they're thinking hard about this and they're experimenting and they're drawing us towards it. And so when we walk through wherever, like you're, you're, you're doing a literal exercise of resonance, you know.
- [39:38]
Goop Executive / Host
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [39:40]
Emily Hickey
Right. Like, and why you have your brands. I tend to shop the same brands over and over again. And one, like it's so fun to try a new brand and to see something that's popping into the world with a new point of view, but that, that you can relate to because it draws you with them, you know.
- [39:54]
Goop Executive / Host
Yeah, yeah.
- [39:56]
Emily Hickey
And then you have to start to think about color engineering. Know that's something like, that's very important that you again like it's this left brain. The brand is forcing itself to create scaffolding for its creativity with this type of an exercise. And then it's going nuts with its right brain. And so when you think about colors, you could just pick something, you know, or even like product names. What are you expressing in a product name or a color name? You could just pick a color or you could have a color engineering brand code where we want to make women's skin like look Warm and beautiful. You know about color from the point of view of a code, you know what I mean? And you can still be creative with what that color is. But the DNA, again, prescription, prescriptive clarity from the code is that if it doesn't make a woman's skin tone look warm and beautiful, then we're not going to use it. You know what I mean?
- [40:46]
Goop Executive / Host
Yeah.
- [40:47]
Emily Hickey
So that's an example. So how would warmth. How does something psychological like that show up in a brand? It shows up in brands all day long. You know, it shows up and is a mile is a model smiling. Every picture you like of yourself, you're
- [40:58]
Goop Executive / Host
smiling, by the way, and so interesting.
- [41:01]
Emily Hickey
It is interesting. And the, you know, how do you convey warmth and friendship? Like a lot of the words. How. How do you shoot something that feels like it's a group of friends, you know? And how do you.
- [41:15]
Goop Executive / Host
When you're, you know, directing one of these shoots, how do you do that?
- [41:19]
Emily Hickey
Well, I think that's an area for exploration for you guys, because I think this is a hard stage of life because you're so busy and you're doing whatever you're doing. You have your own family, probably you might be caring for parents or aging like you're working. It's a very. It's very hard to have active always on friendships at this age. I think you're, You're. You're actually really good at that.
- [41:39]
Goop Executive / Host
But I know I really prioritize that and I can't live without it. Like, I cannot, especially with the kids out of the house and, you know, starting their lives. It's like my friends bring a grounding and like an orientation to my life, you know, which is not the same as the one that kids do. But it's. It's like I'll lifeline to me, like, to. And especially with old friends, like my dad. My dad always used to say, you can't make new old friends. That was like one of his. His great phrases, you know, And I think. Because what's implicit in that is like, of course, it's the history and the shared stuff and like, you both laugh at Sixteen Candles and you have the same. You know what I mean? All that. But there's also like, this witnessing of your life as you go through all these different phases, all the transformations, all the milestones, all the, all the things. It's like, you know, my best friend Mary, like, heard my parents fighting through a wall. Do you know what I mean? Like in the 80s, like, how. How could you ever replace that or Let go of the incredible like, framework or, or compass that, that gives your life. Like, so to me, it's like I. Non negotiable.
- [43:15]
Emily Hickey
Yeah, yeah, I know. You're, you're. I feel the same way emotionally, and I don't do a good job prioritizing it from a time perspective. And you, you, that is part of the infrastructure of your life. That, that, that's really, really cool. I'm always trying to do better with that. But yeah, but emotionally, I agree, you know, like, it's the Breakfast Club thing of like, oh, I've got this thing in my family too. You can't replace that. And so friendship, you know, how do you show that? I mean, there's your lookbook shots and, you know, but I still think that there's a lot of experimentation ahead with Gwen. And becoming, always becoming. That's, that's goop, you know, and it's is okay to become in public. And that's what's exciting about this, you know. And so I think there's a lot of experimentation ahead with Gwynne. Should you just take a shot of yourself in the closet, like you're just walking out the door or like with friends, you know, or with things that look like they're friends? The Gossip Girl sitting on the steps of the public library in New York, you know, like there, I don't know. There are ways to cue psychology into photo shoots. It just takes experimentation, I think. But that, but friendship, yeah.
- [44:26]
Goop Executive / Host
It's interesting because, like, I, I, I think about my friends too when I'm designing the Gwyn clothes, you know, like, I'll think about Julia in Chicago being like, I don't want to show this part of my arms anymore at this, you know what I mean? But I still want to feel cool. And you know, so it's like, I think my friends are actually a really important part of the, in the background thinking.
- [44:56]
Emily Hickey
Yeah. And how do you, you know, you, you wearing high tops where that are unlaced is a very different choice than wearing something that's just completely put together top to bottom, you know, so it's just experimentation around. How do you convey this psychology, you know?
- [45:11]
Goop Executive / Host
Yeah.
- [45:18]
Advertisement Voice
This episode is brought to you by Progressive. Most of you aren't just listening right now. You're driving, cleaning, and even exercising. But what if you could be saving money by switching to Progressive? Drivers who save by switching save nearly $750 on average. And auto customers qualify for an average of 7 discounts. Multitask right now, quote today@progressive.com progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates. National average 12 month savings of $744 by new customers surveyed who saved with Progressive between June 2022 and May 2023. Potential savings will vary. Discounts not available in all states and situations.
- [45:58]
Goop Executive / Host
What do you think? Are brands that do this exceptionally well? Meaning like in the assets they have been able to fully capture the, the essence of the brand through the codes.
- [46:09]
Emily Hickey
Yep. Doan does it extremely well. They have from the beginning and they, it's that romantic, you know, feminine. They, they will not let go of that. And they, they also have a code of. We want them to feel like they, we want the customer to feel like they know us, you know, and so really why wouldn't you want that? You know, certain brands, like of course, like the road, that's not what they're going for. But for a brand like that, you know, there's an intimacy to that. And the girls, you know, Catherine and Margaret, I mean like they, they're very open with their lives but that whole team is really on the same page about what that photography is going to look like, what they're so disciplined about, who everybody in the world wants to collab with Doan right now and they say no to everything, but then they'll say yes to the gap, you know, like they, they have a good instinct around their own, like around their codes and what they're trying to be. And you know, I think there's some young brands that I really like that, that I think are doing this really well still here in New York is one of them. They always do these kind of billboard campaigns that you can tell you're downtown and it's super, just chill. They're cool. They're really cool. That's a cool brand. And I think that they're very evocative in the way they shoot and the way that they do events and how they prop style the events and who's at the event and where it is. And like they, they thread their kind of downtown insouciance, almost 90s, that kind of thing. They thread that through the visual events. I mean that's the idea too is like when you establish these brand codes, then you're not just doing a random event in the Hamptons, like all of it, it's coming out the pores of everything that you do and it's all accretive towards an impression that you're creating on people.
- [47:42]
Goop Executive / Host
So yeah, because I think people can sniff out in two seconds now if something's being, you know, put out there for Commerce like people, I think people more than ever want to feel a connection with the brands that they like and use. And you know, that's why to me, when people say they trust GOOP and our clean beauty, you know, portal, for example, like it's so meaningful to me. Right. That like we've. People know that there's authenticity there. Like they know that we've taken the time to do all of the research and to comb through all the evidence and to offer a selection of beauty that's non toxic, for example. Right. It's like, and it takes years to build that trust and authenticity, circling back constantly to what's important and kind of what, what you were saying at the beginning, right. Like what are the moral codes of a brand?
- [48:36]
Emily Hickey
Yeah, well, and that's what drives community. Why is there such you could, you could blow Goop in the worst way humanly possible and you'd still have a community of women around this person. It like it is so strong. And, and why is that? Because you represent something and you stand for something which again is the value and validity of a woman's life, you know, and that you are showing what it is to be free. What does freedom look like for a woman? It involves self governance and discipline, but exploration of sexuality and like you've always championed those things. You know, that it's interesting and brave and unapologetic and iconoclastic and like I think right now it's even, it's just so important to celebrate what freedom looks like for women. And we've talked about this a lot. But who, who do we celebrate as a brand? That's part of how you create community around a brand is you put a poll, you know, you, you put a stake in the ground, say this is what we stand for. These are our codes. We look for it in the world. We're going to celebrate it because it gets women get too lost in the world and it's not because clear like what, what is a cool woman at this point? You know, what does the brand think is cool? What do we think is worth putting up on the podium and saying that's what modern womanhood looks like. That's what freedom in a woman looks like. Right. And that it would. And I do want to say I what I appreciate one of the things, many, many things I appreciate about what, what you're standing for is edge. And so yeah, I just really appreciate that you're putting kind of the dial over here and I think it's important, important. It does not hurt to do that. Explicitly as a brand. It works, you know, to be.
- [50:13]
Goop Executive / Host
Yeah. And it's also like our. You know, I think if we're not doing that right, it's like, I don't. I don't know about everybody, but I. I have always been so inspired by radical declaration of self and of art through whatever form. It's like, I think we all want, as women to be able to radically declare ourselves in the face of whatever as a. Like, we, you know, we have. That we have, and we're so many of us, I think, feel not entitled to do that or not entitled to do that until they're a certain age, you know?
- [50:58]
Emily Hickey
Yep. No, I love that radical self declaration, and I agree. But how do you have the courage to do that? That was another thing we were talking about is, like, reassessing yourself midlife. And how do you have the courage to actually make big changes? I love that when people make big changes, I'm like, awesome job. You know, that's hard. Embarrassing. And like. Yeah. I mean, how to. And how to do that through clothes. Like, have you ever drastically changed the way you dressed or. It's always been, you know, I.
- [51:29]
Goop Executive / Host
There have been times where I have sort of gone out on a limb, like, oh, today I'm going to try to be this maybe type of person, like, in my 20s. And it was always, like, an abject failure. Like, I always look back at those pictures, like, what the fuck was I doing wearing that thing? You know? And I don't have a lot of those because I think I have always. My baseline has always been very much like Levi's in a shirt, you know, like I. And a blazer.
- [52:04]
Gwyneth Paltrow
And.
- [52:05]
Goop Executive / Host
Yeah, it's like the boots change and the blazer changes and the, you know, all of the silhouettes change. But you can tell when a woman is dressing like herself, there's such an ease there. And, yeah, like, there were a few. There were a few times where I was like, you know, There was one McQueen look that I wore to the Oscars one year that was like kind of a goth situation. And it was actually like, it's such a cool. It's a. It's. It's very cool, but it's not me. Right?
- [52:38]
Emily Hickey
Yeah.
- [52:39]
Goop Executive / Host
And so when I see that one, I'm like, oh, that was a real. That was a real choice there, Gwyneth. Like, that was just because it's. And I. It just is so not what I dress like, you know?
- [52:53]
Emily Hickey
No, I love that, though. I mean, you have. It's the electric fence thing of, like, okay, I'm gonna try that and then come back, you know.
- [52:59]
Goop Executive / Host
Totally.
- [53:01]
Emily Hickey
Well, I think that we, you know, it was really cool. I mean, a lot of the, the codes that we brought from your wife, of course, and from the DNA of the brand, of course, one being discovery and curation. And so when we think about our third party brands that we should be bringing really exciting new things to the market, but also travel, feminine menswear, sexuality, the people who you put kind of around yourself, the idea of a friend group, you know.
- [53:27]
Goop Executive / Host
Yeah.
- [53:28]
Emily Hickey
And you know, 90s New York City, city, country, you know, tweeds. What does that say about textures and fabrics? And how does that. That to me is one of the. There's always like all these fashion brands. There's contradictions and juxtapositions and how do you modernize something that's old? And you know, that stuff I think is all really, really fun to think about. So. Yeah, so we had a lot of fun digging into.
- [53:49]
Goop Executive / Host
Yeah, we did. It was a great, it was a very illuminating exercise to go through. And you know, again, like you, your, your mastery is sort of the. Creating these synergies between like all the feeling, all the textures, all the intention and like turning it into a consumer facing thing. It's such a special gift that you have.
- [54:17]
Emily Hickey
Well, thank you.
- [54:18]
Goop Executive / Host
I find it very inspiring to think through these things with you.
- [54:23]
Emily Hickey
I do too. It inspires me too. And that's, I think, when we know we're on the right track, you know, because that's the point is to animate ourselves and everybody else and do this in a way that it somehow is made obvious and subtle at the same time, you know, and so I can't wait to see what you guys do with the collections. And also just a point of encouragement, I think, to women, you know, that you can always reinvent. And we, we are never done as women. That's how we are. And to have the courage to. And, and maybe the, the take the time to actually kind of dork out and think about this in a disciplined, methodical way of who am I going to become this year?
- [55:00]
Goop Executive / Host
You know, I love that.
- [55:03]
Emily Hickey
What am I afraid to do? What am I afraid to be?
- [55:06]
Goop Executive / Host
You know, that's good. Well, thank you, Ms. Emily Hickey.
- [55:12]
Emily Hickey
Thank you.
- [55:14]
Goop Executive / Host
That was so fantastic. Thank you for coming on the pod.
- [55:17]
Emily Hickey
Thank you for having me. It was so fun.
- [55:23]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Thanks for tuning in. This has been a presentation of Cadence 13 Studios. I hope you'll listen, follow rate and
- [55:30]
Goop Executive / Host
review all of our episodes, which are
- [55:32]
Gwyneth Paltrow
available for free on Apple Podcasts.
- [55:34]
Goop Executive / Host
Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts.