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- [00:00]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Acura's all new adx. A compact SUV that isn't just built for one thing. It's precision crafted for everything. To escape the grind. With available all wheel drive to go with your flow. With available Google built in. Hey Google, turn it up. Okay.
- [00:13]
Kai Dickens
Turning up the volume.
- [00:14]
Gwyneth Paltrow
And crafted to be heard. With an available Bang Olufsen premium sound system. The all new Acura adx. Crafted to match your energy. Acura precision crafted performance Google is a trademark of Google llc. One of the things I love most about traveling is being immersed in someone else's world for a little while. Whether it's the architecture in Paris, the colors and textures of Mexico City, or a perfect bowl of pasta in Rome. Food, fashion, design, the feeling of a place, it all tells a story. And I especially love getting to share that with others. So when I first hosted with Airbnb, I appreciated how easy and seamless it was. I could open my home on my own terms when it felt right for me. And the whole process was so simple. Hosting on Airbnb is a great way to make the most of your time away. It's a wonderful option if you have extra space, own a seasonal home, or tend to travel at the same time every year. Hosting is incredibly flexible. You set the dates, welcome guests on your terms, and create memorable stays that reflect the warmth and uniqueness you seek in your own travels. If you've ever thought about hosting, your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much@airbnb.com host when you are pioneering anything or introducing new ideas to the culture, you get criticized. You do? Yeah. Did you hear about that? I didn't find the one. I found someone I respected and we made it the one.
- [01:58]
Kai Dickens
In the sort of longing kind of.
- [02:00]
Gwyneth Paltrow
View of love, people understand each other as if by magic.
- [02:03]
Kai Dickens
Nothing in itself is addictive on the one hand.
- [02:05]
Gwyneth Paltrow
On the other hand, everything could be.
- [02:07]
Kai Dickens
Addictive if there's an emptiness in that.
- [02:09]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Person that needs to be filled. I now know that nobody changes until they change their energy. And when you change your energy, you change your life. Gwyneth I'm Gwyneth Paltrow. This is the GOOP Podcast, bringing together thought leaders, culture changers, creatives, founders and CEOs, scientists, doctors, healers and seekers. Here to start conversations. Because simply asking questions and listening has the power to change the way we see the world. Here we go. Welcome back to the GOOP Podcast. Hi, I'm Gwyneth Paltrow. Today I'm sitting down with filmmaker Kai Dickens, the creator of the very popular Telepathy Tapes podcast who's now working on a documentary that continues the fascinating exploration. I first came across the Telepathy Tapes through a friend, and it stayed with me. It really invites us to consider some big and sometimes uncomfortable questions about consciousness, how we communicate, and the limits of what we think we know. Kai shares what she's witnessed over years of working with families of non speaking autistic children, many of whom seem to communicate in ways that challenge everything we've been taught. Some call it telepathy, others call it intuition, others don't believe it's happening at all. But any way you look at it, it's fascinating. So whether you're approaching this episode with skepticism, curiosity, or something in between, I think this conversation will intrigue you. Thank you so much for coming and doing this with me.
- [03:54]
Kai Dickens
Oh, it's a pleasure.
- [03:56]
Gwyneth Paltrow
I'm really excited to have you on the podcast because, well, for many reasons, but I sort of found the Telepathy Tapes podcast through a friend, I think kind of pretty soon after it had come out and I was totally enthralled by it and I have so many questions, and then it sort of became this massive phenomenon. So congratulations on that.
- [04:22]
Kai Dickens
Thank you.
- [04:23]
Gwyneth Paltrow
And now it's like, generated widespread media attention, which I think is fantastic because, you know, whenever. And I have some experience with this too, I think whenever we're introducing, like a new concept into culture, it can be incredibly uncomfortable for people. But I love that the POD raises these incredibly big and complex questions, really, about. About consciousness, about communication, and of course, some of which science has not answered. So I'm just super curious and really excited to kind of dig in with you today.
- [05:05]
Kai Dickens
I love it. I'm excited to be here.
- [05:07]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Can you tell me a little bit about how did you come to arrive at this subject? Why did it come and how did it overtake you?
- [05:17]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, so it's a kind of a layered, nuanced response. Right. And, you know, I, up until the Telepathy Tapes was a social issue documentarian, so I was making projects about paid family medical leave and about access to, you know, accessible and affordable healthcare and stuff like that. So, you know, nothing like this had ever been on my radar. And then as happens, you know, I had two. I had two friends die, you know, kind of in the prime of their lives. And it was really unexpected. And I was kind of going through that own cognitive dissidence of like, why are we here and what does it matter and do we have a soul? And has anyone ever really dug into these Questions which, yes, there's hundreds of people have dug into these questions. But I wanted to and I thought, look, if I'm going to spend. Because what happens with the documentary. Right. Is often you are spending months, even years researching something before you ever get paid for even, you know. So I was like, if I'm going to be doing that, I want to do it instead of fixing a broken society, trying to fix what's broken in humanity and figure out like what we are and why we're here. So I didn't know where that would lead. I just started reading and I was reading about, you know, tree consciousness and Ian Stevenson's work around reincarnation and near death experiences and. And I was just open to everything. And you know, it was actually kind of interesting. Cause at this time I was also reading Big Magic, which I'm sure. Have you read.
- [06:31]
Gwyneth Paltrow
I haven't actually.
- [06:32]
Kai Dickens
Oh my gosh. Okay. That's. Elizabeth Gilbert wrote this book about the creative process and how ideas are like disconnected entities of consciousness.
- [06:44]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Right. That come through you. And that's right, of course. And she gives the example of the poet who runs and. Yep.
- [06:51]
Kai Dickens
And pulls it backwards. Yeah. And then if you don't, if it doesn't go to you, it goes. Goes to someone else. But if you want, you can also engage this, you know, Big Magic to come, you know, work with you and. But you don't ask it, you kind of tell it, you know. And so I did that too. I was like working all this stuff and I said to whatever is out there, like, you know, whatever to do next, I really want to answer this question and I want to do it big and bold. So that's what I'm doing. Send me the thing, please. And you know, all these things kind of came together and all of a sudden I hear an interview with Dr. Pow as part of my like, what I would say, like 18 months of consciousness research. I was listening to a podcast called the Cosmos and you'd and heard an interview with Dr. Diane Hennessy Powell, who said she was doing, you know, a lot of testing on non speakers who were considered savants and discovered quickly from a lot of the families and parents that they were like, actually, I don't think they are savant, I think they actually can read minds. And so she did a bunch of research. I wanted to delve more into this, met Dr. Powell and kind of the rest is history.
- [07:56]
Gwyneth Paltrow
And so then did you know that you wanted to set out to do a podcast or. Because it seemed like, right, tell me about that.
- [08:05]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, so, yeah, like. So I, you know, again, like, typically make feature documentaries. So once I start, you know, talking to Dr. Powell, meeting some of the families, spending time with her, and then kind of picking up where she left off, right. Like, where she did a lot of the tests, and then I started really understanding the intricacies of this world and how big it was. I realized this is not just a documentary. This is a huge series. Like, this needs to be a series. And so that's what I started doing, was going around the country and really trying to first proof of concept, like, just do my own, like, ramshackle bespoke telepathy test with these individuals to be like, is this happening? Is this working? And then to start spending time to understand, like, the method of communication and how the telepathy works. And again, is this all real? It was phenomenal. And as I traveled the country I was filming it all, came back and made a sizzle reel to pitch. And that's what we did. We pitched it to pretty much most of the major streamers and networks, and I think to their. I think, to give them some credit, I think they are bound to their mandates. So I think sometimes they just can't do much. But these pitches were going really well. At some point, someone said, this is the best pitch we'd heard in five years. Someone else at one point said, look, people often come in with promising the world, and they only have a golf ball, but we feel like you have a universe. And so I was like, yay. I was even keeping in touch with the families, like, your story is finally going to get told. I promise this is going to be a docu series. One of these people will bite. And then no one did. It was a whole slate of rejections. And I remember, I mean, I felt that this was the most important story in the world. Not because I was telling it like I've told many stories I don't think are critically important. But this to me was like, this could change how everything and. And no one is listening to these people because they have always been dismissed because these claims are so out there or, you know, hard to believe. And I was devastated, and I didn't see a way forward. I was like, I can't afford just go make this on my own. And. And I like, you know, I just. I cried and I felt really despondent for a few weeks walking past those dusty drives. And then it just kind of hit me, like, wait a second. I don't need someone to give me a green light. I could Just go tell the story with a microphone. And that made. Then I like, got like a dog with the bone with that idea. And I remember calling a lot of the families and even Dr. Powell and being like, you guys, a podcast. And they were all like, that's a horrible idea. You have to see spelling to believe it. You have to see telepathy to believe it. Autism is so stigmatized, especially with a lot of the non speakers who can't speak or hear. They're like, how can you do this in an audio format? And I was just like, I really think this is it, because we can go behind the fifth wall and interview the crew, and this can set up the whole story in such a way that I think we'll get the doc funded. And no one thought it was a good idea. So it's just remarkable what ended up happening.
- [11:02]
Gwyneth Paltrow
And so the podcast kind of sets out to present this thesis that, that there is such thing as telepathy. Telepathy that we don't fully understand consciousness. That it's kind of generated from these very sweet, intimate stories between generally mothers and, and children or, or parents and children, sometimes siblings and children. And it's interesting, a very close family friend of mine who I grew up with, he has a son that has Pit Hopkins. And I called him when this, when the podcast came out and I said, you know, do you feel that? And he said, we just, everybody knows this, but we just don't. We don't talk about it. Which I thought was also super interesting. Like that this is. This is kind of an axiom for many, many parents with, with autistic children. So how did you kind of. It seemed it almost like when you listen to the podcast, it almost plays like a mystery, you know, it almost is like unfolding with you and with families as, as you go along, what was it like for you to be, you know, you can pick one of the families and talk about, or maybe a keel who is early in the podcast and has these incredible gifts, like, what was that like for you to witness? And could you talk a little bit about, for anybody who might not have listened yet, what you witnessed?
- [12:32]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, yeah. So the. I guess even to back up one step further, right, is that there were claims coming in from all over the country. And, you know, I met Dr. Powell, but this was happening prior to Dr. Powell at places like the Treffert center, which studied savantism, and a former doctor named Dr. Bernie Rimland. Like, there have been people throughout history kind of get, you know, hearing or bearing witness to the Fact that especially non speaking individuals with apraxia or, you know, which is a form of autism, where there's a mind, body disconnect, can read minds, and that it's a part of their survival skill on earth really, because often they're not engaged with or educated. And that this, this is like a form of deep communication and personhood. And then there have been multiple people, scientists who've studied this, from Dr. Rupert Sheldrake again to Bernie Rimlin, to the Treffert Center, Daryl Trert, Dr. Powell, and now there's a whole new slew of research happening because of this being brought wide, you know, back into the open.
- [13:30]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Right.
- [13:30]
Kai Dickens
And so what was remarkable was that, you know, what Dr. Powell had said at first to me was that, you know, these individuals put behind a partition can accurately tell you a made up word, a random number, a random picture, like whatever the person is looking at or seeing. They can, they can at least like 90 to 90, you know, 100% of the time tell you what the person is looking at. And so I. It's hard to believe. It's really hard to believe. So the first time I saw it was with an individual named Mia. And I wanted to, I didn't know whether even not to trust Dr. Powell. Like it's just so hard to know what to believe. So I wanted to rent the location, set up all the queues, buy, you know, meaning like buy the random cards and pictures and stuff, buy my own iPad, download the random number generator. So no one was controlling this except for my little skeptical brain that wanted to see it, to believe it, to know if I should go spend my time and money and effort on it. And Mia was hitting all the, everything that her, her mom was looking at from behind this partition. She was accurate. And it was never not accurate until we tried it with her dad, where she could not do it with her dad. And it was fascinating. And. But then Dr. Powell said, as remarkable as this was, and as much as, you know, I think everyone in the room saw, believes this is telepathy. The fact that she was so early in her spelling journey that she was being touched would make it discredited. So you go see Akil because he's not being touched. And that was remarkable. And I don't have a doubt that Mia was spelling her own thoughts and that her mom wasn't doing some sort of Morse code on her head. I mean, I don't think anyone in the room thought that was happening.
- [15:00]
Gwyneth Paltrow
But how can they discredit like somebody being able to Read a number behind a screen. Like even if their elbows being assisted in pointing to a number of.
- [15:11]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, I mean, I think people will find a way to discredit anything that is kind of really challenging the status quo, I think. So I think that's okay, but with a keel. Well, one thing is, you know, spelling has evolved from facilitated communication, which was like really using push and touch to help someone find their body in space. The subjects in our project are using spelling to communicate. A rapid prompting method where there is no touch involved. You're not allowed to touch them. And that's one of the tenants of this new communication, to make sure, right. That it can't be influenced. And what's remarkable, some individuals move on to be spelling without anyone near them. Right. Like on a keyboard or into an iPad. And that's what Akil can do. So when we were there and we would show his mom a picture, a random image, a number, and Akil, not only sometimes next to her, but sometimes in another room, sometimes across the room, would accurately answer exactly what his mom was seeing, what was looking at. I mean, it completely shatters every belief you hold about who we are as individuals, as humans, about the Earth.
- [16:11]
Gwyneth Paltrow
How so?
- [16:12]
Kai Dickens
Well, suddenly you have to. I mean, I think most of us want to now know why. And I think that's what I have found from the people on the set. The crew would be like, okay, okay, what? I don't know. I don't doubt that this is happening now. I want to know why it's happening. You know? So that sends you on a huge quest to figure out, okay, well, what is consciousness?
- [16:34]
Gwyneth Paltrow
And why is even like, that's a level deeper of a question. First it's how. Like, right.
- [16:39]
Kai Dickens
How is this? Right? Yeah. And the how, when I started looking into that, it was pretty fascinating because a lot of the researchers and scientists in the space will say, look, this is not new. This is not new to anyone. We all have this ability. It's within animals. It's rampant in the animal kingdom. What I have found out since releasing the telepathy, the tapes, this was actually remarkable. There was. And we did a Talk Tracks, which is like our follow up season on this a few weeks ago, a Talk Tracks episode about the sheer amount of people that are caring for people with Alzheimer's or dementia who have lost their voice are saying, I telepathically connect with my aging parent or with as a caregiver with the person I'm taking care of. And the emails we were getting in the Alzheimer's dementia space. Were similar to what Dr. Powell is getting initially from parents. Right. No one will believe me, people. It sounds bonkers. I don't know where to put this, but I am getting visuals or hearing words from the person I love who can no longer communicate due to, you know, what's happening in their brain. And so it seems like telepathy is a part of us, is a part of communicating and connecting when other things fail us. Yeah.
- [17:57]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Acura's all new adx. A compact SUV that isn't just built for one thing. It's precision crafted for everything. To escape the grind. With available all wheel drive to go with your flow. With available Google built in. Hey, Google, turn it up. Okay.
- [18:09]
Kai Dickens
Turning up the volume.
- [18:10]
Gwyneth Paltrow
And crafted to be heard. With an available Bang Olufsen premium sound system. The all new Acura adx, crafted to match your energy. Acura precision crafted performance. Google is a trademark of Google llc. I'm not sure that I would. I don't. I don't know what to call it. I don't. I don't know if it's telepathy, but I, I absolutely see witness. Feel like there is you. You sometimes become in communion with. Wordlessly in communion with. With somebody, you know, I mean, and that can be in the same room in a different room that can be, you know, with somebody, you know, you thinking of someone and they call you or you're, you know, saying to your. I mean, I think that we all. I think that everybody, everybody that I know does believe that there is some kind of, you know, communion that happens. It's just whether it's just not quantifiably proven mode of communication.
- [19:16]
Kai Dickens
Yeah. Yeah. And I think, I feel very hopeful that this can get proven now in the next few years. I know Dr. Powell received, I believe, a bit of research funding to go and do like a extensive experiment with MRI and QEGs to try to, you know, and then I know the University of Virginia is doing something. University of Oregon's doing something. We're working with a scientist who just innovated. This is unbelievable. Like a hyper scanning QEEG that has a letter board built in, so when you send the picture to the parent, they can type directly into the screen so you can see where their eyes are tracking just to prove there's no funny business. So I feel very confident that in a few years, anyone pushing back or just on this will be like, oops, I was on the wrong side of history. And that happens with most scientific breakthroughs, right?
- [20:04]
Gwyneth Paltrow
For sure.
- [20:05]
Kai Dickens
The rainbow was a sign from God. Until it was water and prisms and sunlight, you know.
- [20:10]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Right, right, of course. And there was. What was that, that poor doctor, I think, in Austria, who suggested they wash their hands between handling daffers and delivering babies and he was sent to a mental institution.
- [20:24]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [20:26]
Gwyneth Paltrow
His name will come to me at some point. I want to talk to you a little bit about, because there's sort of two areas, right? There's facilitated communication and then there's telepathy and facilitated communication. And those methods have kind of been discredited by some people in the scientific establishment. But you have Dr. Powell and, and for me, like, the anecdotal experiences of the families themselves who are, you know, in and daily in and out with, with these kids. I mean, do you feel that the scientific community has sort of a bias towards dismissing things like, you know, I, I, I just wonder if there is a lack of just openness or just the empirical data. You know, I mean, what, what do you think that we are missing or the scientific community is missing initially in terms of how they're evaluating these experiences?
- [21:26]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, I think that's a great question. And actually I'm very excited because the Talk Tracks episode releasing this week, episode eight, is someone who goes through a lot of that, that question. Exactly. The pushback. And she was a scientist that was trying to debunk the lovely dates, and she couldn't and she ended and she ended up debunking the claims that the demon cars were making. And I think there's a few things at play here, right? Like the telepathy is there with or without spelling. Most parents are experiencing this long before spelling even happens. Some experience with. Experience it with their verbally or minimally verbal children. So, you know, I think those are two different things. But, but spelling has evolved from facility communication, where you're being touched, to these other methods where there's no touch. And, you know, I don't think a lot of, not just mainstream scientists, but mainstream journalists are looking into the dogma around spelling. There's just been things attached to it for 30 years without anyone being like, wait a second, which is what the, A lot of people say it's this idiomotor effect or like this Ouija board effect, right? Where, like, the parent is thinking it and therefore the kid will just think it and they're like controlling their body, almost like a joystick or something. And, you know, I think there's a few elements of this which, which aren't even, like, if someone just were to really think it through, don't make sense. You know, I think the first and foremost is that so many of these individuals are spelling things that their parents don't know or haven't been taught. You know, like one of my favorite things that it's going to be in the documentary Houston, who was in the podcast when he first started spelling openly, which is when you're communicating on your own. His mom asked him a question, and I don't remember exactly what it was, but he started reciting the Gettysburg Address verbatim.
- [23:08]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Oh my gosh, she didn't know the.
- [23:09]
Kai Dickens
Gettysburg Address, you know, or, you know, when we're on set or when I'm off in with these families, like, the parent will say, we're doing this. And the child will bring over the letterboard, like, I want you to go do this. And they're like, no, we're not doing that. I don't want to do that right now. Like, there's real conflict of what you want to do, which doesn't happen if you're like joysticking someone and you know, just the amount of languages that some of the non speakers will know or information about something that other people don't know. So it's easy, it's easy to be like, oh, spelling's been dismissed. It's. And it's because of this. But I haven't found a journalist or scientist yet to say, wait a second, what are they pointing to? And is that accurate? And really looking at the, the newest, most cutting edge research around it. But more importantly, spending time with a speller. Because once you're in the home with a speller, it's just like, oh, okay, you see where their eyes are going. You see what they're doing, you see how fast they're going. And, and one of the favorite, one of my favorite things that really, I think seals it sometimes is you'll see a parent really wants a quick answer. What do you want for dinner? Or do you want to go for a walk or to the beach? Like, hurry, hurry, hurry. Like, you know, and they'll be like, the weather is nice today. I think it would be lovely if first we could have breakfast. And the parents like Walker Beach. You know.
- [24:24]
Gwyneth Paltrow
That'S so funny. I mean, my, my friend, like, he, he describes all the time like his son is incredibly good at math and they'll pose, you know, an equ. The parents don't know the answer to the math question. And once he's done it, they take out a calculator and he gets it right. So, I mean, yeah, to your point, I think there is, is there any kind of, you know, thinking around this mystery of how this savantism works, like how these kids can be fluent in multiple languages if they haven't been exposed to them on a daily basis?
- [25:05]
Kai Dickens
I mean, that's a huge mystery, right? I mean, that's, that is the question.
- [25:08]
Gwyneth Paltrow
You do say in the, in the podcast that savantism is sort of scientifically accepted, right?
- [25:15]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, yeah. And so savantism, right, is having exceptional skills in something you haven't been taught or, you know, even exposed to. And there are language savants. And I think one of the, you know, hypothesis or, you know, things that we put forth in the, in the project is, look, savant's skills, the calendar computation and, you know, math and music that we can't understand. How someone has this information but they do is accepted. We, it's, we can't explain it, but it's accepted. And this idea that ESP should be a savant skill was first introduced by a man named Bernie Rimland, which is like, wait a second, these are individuals who know things they shouldn't know. And, and that could be language, it could be someone else's thoughts. And just because we don't understand it doesn't mean it's not true because we can see quite clearly that it's happening.
- [26:07]
Gwyneth Paltrow
So interesting. And like on do do, did you find a correlation? Like, is there, is there an inverse correlation between how non verbal someone is and how telepathic they are?
- [26:23]
Kai Dickens
You know, I don't, I haven't seen that. Because what's fascinating is I, first of all, you know, I think not. I don't know if every single person who is non verbal has these abilities. You know, I have no idea. I just know the ones that I've met do.
- [26:38]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Right.
- [26:39]
Kai Dickens
And I was in, talking to a woman yesterday who's been innovating this magnetic MERT treatment to individuals with autism to help their alpha brain waves stretch all the way across their body. Because right now they don't go all the way. And she says often when they start to stretch their, their voice comes back or they're not their voice, like their ability to speak arises and they can speak when they couldn't have before. And I felt super sheepish asking her this. Even with the telepathy tapes being out, I still do because here's a sign that's working with medical treatment for, you know, to help non speakers regulate their body. And I said, hey, do you know if any of the non speakers you've met Talk about telepathy or any of these things. And she goes, yeah, they all do. I mean, that I've met. She's like, most of them will. And I said, oh, okay, well, does that still exist once their language is connected and they do this treatment? And she said, yeah, it does. So I thought that was really interesting. Really interesting.
- [27:35]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Super interesting. You know, I think we. We. And I don't want to beat this dead horse, but I just find this, that. This intersection really interesting that, you know, that we have a paradox in society that people are really quick to dismiss phenomena like telepathy as pseudoscience. But a significant portion of Americans believe in God, you know, which also lacks empirical evidence. So why do you think that certain beliefs are more socially accepted, like believing in God, where others are more marginalized?
- [28:14]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, so. And I kind of go into this at great lengths in the tlepty tapes that, you know, I don't think people realize we live within a paradigm. I didn't really realize that. And the paradigm in which we live in is called materialism. And that's not the desire to buy nice cars and anything like that. It's not being materialistic. It's about this scientific belief that what's real can be measured and observed. And, you know, I think when materialism really took root, there was a big effort to make sure that, you know, I guess kind of what spurred out of this materialism is that this idea that anything that can't be observed or monitored is frivolous. You know, so whether that is something like God or these other ideas that are kind of, you know, invisible and, you know, kind of hushed over campfires and that sort of thing just can't be possible. There's no way they can be possible. And if you believe they were possible, you weren't scientific, you weren't smart, you were gullible and, you know, laughed at. And most of our institutions now, from universities to the mainstream media to, you know, our rooted in materialism. And most of materialism isn't bad, right? Like. Like science and biology and physiology and psychology, like, those things are incredible. Like, we should not throw out our textbooks. There are really great bodies of research and important elements of academia. But where materialism falls short is that it hasn't been able to explain where consciousness comes from. Why? Why does it exist? And the idea is like, oh, well, it arose from all these other physical blocks we can't observe, right? Like from physics and biology and all these different things consciousness came. Came from. But the materialist apparel dime, the Materialist paradigm also can't, you know, make sense of other things. There's been millions of people around the world who've, you know, said that they've seen a spirit or had, you know, a dream where they talked to a loved one or had, you know, the phone telepathy, if you will, or before that, and Mark Twain would call it mental telegraphy where someone would write a letter and it was postmarked the same day you wrote them the letter, even though you hadn't talked in five years. And you didn't realize that happened until you both got each other's letter in yesteryear, right? Now that's phone telepathy. Most of us have had an experience like this, near death experiences that seem to be universal and instead of answering those things, they're just brushed aside. Well, it can't possibly be. And that's where a lot of scientists, which I think are going to be the people on the right side of history, kind of put their hand up and said, just because this stuff is inconvenient and doesn't fit into this materialist paradigm doesn't mean it's not real and not happening and we need to account for it. And so instead of getting being sick of their research around psy abilities like telepathy or precognition or even like mediumship being dismissed, they decided we're going to start a new academy called the Post Materialist, you know, Academy of Sciences so that we can do our own peer reviewing of articles and, you know, and support each other and make it so you are not fired when you talk about this stuff in a college campus or debunked immediately by the mainstream media when you, when you put some like this out. And I do think more and more researchers and scientists are starting to move this direction and many of them are working in the shadows where they're keeping their good university chairmanship job or whatever, but certainly conducting research and curious about these matters on the outskirts. So I think science is changing and I think there's going to be quite a few funerals that need to happen of the old guard. But I do think that in 100 years this won't seem out there. It just won't. And when you look at our like, native cultures around the world, telepathy, precognition, you know, dream travel, stuff like that, which seems so hard to believe, it's, that was part and parcel of their existence, which is how you hunted and how you communicated and how you found cures to things. I mean, it was, it was just part of being alive, you know, and language is convenient and it's, it replaced. I think a lot of these intuitive skills want to pull off the season's freshest trends. You just need the right shoes. That's where designer shoe warehouse comes in.
- [32:25]
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Kai Dickens
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Gwyneth Paltrow
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Kai Dickens
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- [32:51]
Gwyneth Paltrow
I think you make a good point around materialism and then I think it's kind of then fortified by capitalism right where we are or the systems that are in place are so invested in us being in the material and when we're, when we exist in these spaces of, of connection, of communion, of spirit, we don't really need anything, we don't need to buy anything, you know. And so I do think that, you know, it is also challenging more more broadly to these systems that are, that exist.
- [33:26]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it really is. And you know, it's been interesting too. I always, you know, like just watching some of the, the journalist outlooks that I love, that I've always revered and like gone to like just being like oh, the telepathy Dave. They must be doing this or that and it's like, wow. So interesting because like did you go talk to any spellers or you know, those, the people teaching this or the scientists on the cutting edge of really trying to prove this because there's a lot there and I think that if anyone is curious, they just start to look into it. It's hard to go back. Then you kind of, you become changed forever when you start to do the.
- [34:05]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Work and, and that it seems like when that, that's what happens, right. You or Dr. Powell or anybody starts to look at the evidence that's been collected thus far and speaks to the families and it's kind of irrefutable that there's, there's something to it.
- [34:22]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, I mean Dr. Powell has been at this for years and she's continuing to do it and she's got a whole new like bunch of research lined up and it's been great because the University of Virginia has been looking through our tests to write a, you know, a peer reviewed journal about the tests that we did which weren't even like, you know, done in a controlled setting. Like that's hopefully what's going to be happening in the next year or two. Right. So yeah, I mean there's so much great research that's been being done on this right now. I'm very excited for it to come out because what I'm hearing from scientists, you know, emailing and stuff is like, it's, it's pretty remarkable what they're finding when they're trying to replicate what we found.
- [35:02]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Right. And also, you know, I think the skepticism sometimes, you know, when I, I was speaking to my friend about this and it sort of reminded me too of that, that ghost boy where, you know, he, that this was a book for, about a young man who was misdiagnosed as being in a vegetative state. And he appeared to be in a coma but he could hear everything that was happening. Like his brain was, was alive. And Eric was talking about, you know, imagine, imagine being wrong. Like imagine he's a parent of a non speaker. Imagine being wrong. And, and, and they are there and they are, you know, in his case, like a 14 year old boy who's a 14 year old boy and understands everything and has incredibly incredible sophistication around math. As I, as I said before, like I think as a parent, of course you, I think there's a line between, you know, you have to put down skepticism and of course you don't want to, you don't want to speak for your child, right? There's a, there's a line, there's a line to walk. And I'm sure there's a discovery process in there, right? Like you, you, you. I'm sure that there is truth to the fact that parents want it to be, be true. They will it to be true. But then again, just in, you know, talking to this one family that I'm close to, it just is true. If you speak to them, right, they're just, he, he can do these things and, and, and he is in there and they don't want to be skeptical to the point where, you know, if there's a breakthrough and, and can start speaking one day, that he would say, I was there the whole time. And you, you guys didn't believe me. Right?
- [36:42]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, well, and that's the thing that I think is so remarkable is that when you go spend time with families, almost everyone who I've met will be like, yes, we know this, this is true. We never talked about it or I didn't know other people were experiencing this until the slepothy tapes came out because we kept it secret. I mean, who believes that, who would ever believe that? You'd be kind of laughed at, right? Or shrugged off like, oh, oh, you have a telepathic link with your child. Or you, you think they're reading your thoughts or could feel your emotions, or they're talking to you in dreams. I mean, I think a lot of people felt like they were patted on the head. It's just like, oh, you poor mom, like, or dad. You're, you're so hopeful. You need something to cling to. And, and what's remarkable is, you know, I think there is anecdotal evidence which is I think really important. Right. It's that not just, not just a few, not just a handful, not just hundreds, thousands of people around the world are saying this is their experience. And that's what was so beautiful. I think for the families that participate in telepathy tapes and will be participating in the film is that they're getting feedback from so many other families saying this was our experience too. We never felt like we could talk about publicly, you know, and there's a lot of me toos going on. And that I think is part of why this was so. Got so viral is because those who know a non speaker or family or a friend who has a non speaker in their family, when they went to those people and said, is this true? They were like, yeah, it is.
- [38:12]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And how are you metabolizing this? And, and your role in this? And you know, it's like you're sort of, you're on a crusade. That's beautiful. And you know, you're more visible and you're really changing the way that people are perceiving what it means to be a non speaker. So how, how has this been for you?
- [38:33]
Kai Dickens
You know, I just really, really try to keep focused on the non speakers and their families. Right. I as like a steward of the story, like my main priority. And it's been remarkable to see how validated I think so many people feel. And I do keep checking in with a lot of the non speakers. We made a non speaker advisory board just to check in with around the film and everything. And I often will say, like, is this too much? Because the magnifying glass, yeah, it is on me, but it's also on all of you. And it's making all the war. Are you okay? And like their message is always keep going. And I'm kind of like, can I not? Like, you know, but no, I'm, it's an honor but like, but they're like, keep going. Like, don't stop. You know, like, this will break. But it takes a critical mass of People to believe is kind of the message I keep getting back. So. So it's exciting and it is hard. I mean it is hard to like have this work that is so important, but not for me, but to these families and these individuals who I think deserve to be brought out of the shadows, to be educated as full equals, to have the right to communicate in schools and in careers. It's hard to watch their number one way of communicating being slashed by the same dogmatic, not thought through dismissal. But what I'm hoping is that now that there's so much attention on non speakers, there'll be enough money pouring in to prove the ability of spelling and hopefully get these individuals into, you know, just to include in society in a way that they deserve.
- [40:04]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Yes, absolutely. Do you feel that, do you feel that going through this process has changed you in any way? Like the way that you regard consciousness or.
- [40:17]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, 100. I mean, and not just me, but I think even like, yes, for sure for me. And I look at like my dad or other people that I'm really close to who are, who were extremely skeptical, who have been changed by kind of being on the journey with me. Right. My wife, who doesn't believe in anything like this, doesn't believe in. I think she thought I was wild when I first started working on this. You know, like she's completely in belief now. And. But for me it's done two things. Like, one, I now fully believe that consciousness survives death because that's one thing that the non. Once you believe the telepathy and you see it with your own eyes, it's pretty easy then to be like, what else have I dismissed? And, and, and when so many non speakers, often slopathy are talking about, talking to the other side and they constantly are talking about other people in the room, you can't see. It's pretty unusual. And I don't, I didn't know what to make of it the first time I heard that. And then I heard it from person after person after person after person after person. And it's like, okay, how can you dismiss this? You know, it takes so long to get out a thought, spell a thought out. And the parents certainly often don't believe this type of thing to be true. And what do they get from lying about that? Especially when it takes, it takes so much effort to get the thought out. So with that type of stuff, I believe consciousness survives the body. Now. I believe that there is some sort of informational field and I don't know if that's how savantism works, but it does seem like we're able to somehow download information because I don't know how else someone knows a language they haven't been taught.
- [41:46]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Right. To tap into some sort of mainframe.
- [41:49]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, yeah.
- [41:51]
Gwyneth Paltrow
And so how will you develop this into a, into a feature or is it going to be a feature documentary?
- [41:57]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, so we're filming it right now.
- [41:59]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Okay.
- [41:59]
Kai Dickens
Which is exciting.
- [42:01]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Same families or some.
- [42:03]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, there's a few key same families. Katie and Houston and Libby and John Paul and you know, their girlfriend Lily and you know, Akil. But there's also other families that get introduced. And one is kind of a love story between two, you know, 19, 20 year old non speakers in Connecticut. And just like John Paul and Lilly, they are in love and they're One of their chief communication partners is the non speaker, Nina's sister Natalia. And she's been so moved by going through this journey with her sister that she actually stopped her career to open a spelling school. And that's another story. Like when she, the. When Natalia, she ended up having like a medical situation, she had to kind of take a medical leave. And that's right when Nina starts spelling and she starts spelling herbal cures to her, you need to look at this. And she's like, how do you know herbal cures? And Nina said, oh, I can like commune with a lot of the plants. It doesn't matter if they're right next to me. I can like tap in and understand what they're good for. And these are what you need and start, you know, prescribed like a Chinese herb that Natalia had never heard of. She looked it up and it's something that's really good for raising the immune system slowly. And so it's, it's beautiful, you know, and what's really beautiful for me is going back out into the field, being with these families again. And now it's not just me. I have the producers and production corps, you know, all the people and they're seeing this and watching their scales fall from their eyes and cry on set because they're like, oh, shit, this is true. You know, it's remarkable.
- [43:28]
Gwyneth Paltrow
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- [45:13]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you're right that there's a merger of a lot of this stuff at the same time. And I think the, the access to all the psychedelic drugs in medical studies. Right. Where people, I think the embrace of near death experiences and those conversations around that even meditation, I mean meditation was considered fringe science. It was just a bizarre thing for people to study 30 years ago. And now we know it can change people drastically.
- [45:39]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Yeah, absolutely. It's true. Rewire the brain and there's. Yeah. I want to talk to you a little bit about like the ethics. Like some people raise sort of ethics questions around like responsible storytelling. And I, I saw that documentary on.
- [45:58]
Kai Dickens
Netflix called Tell tell, tell them you love me.
- [46:01]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Yeah, love me. Which I, I, I wanted to kind of get your. Did you see that?
- [46:07]
Kai Dickens
I sure did. Yeah.
- [46:09]
Gwyneth Paltrow
And so is that the kind of sort of unethical, you know, landmine that people are, are talking about? Maybe you could say a little bit about what it's about and then I'd love your opinion on that.
- [46:23]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, I mean, tell them you love me is about a true story. I believe her name was Anna Steubenfield, who was a communication partner to a young man that was nicknamed D Man. And they ended up having, you know, a, not just like emotional relationship, but a sexual one. And you know, she was brought to court for, you know, I mean, having sex with someone who couldn't consent, you know. And I think the issue with that case is that the consent was between D Man or the Possible consent or who knows, between D man and Anna. And there wasn't a third party there to, to check when. If you're dealing with someone who doesn't have a voice, who's communicating via spelling or a, you know, communication device and there's something as deeply, you know, personal as like a relationship or kind of anything that's going to materially impact their lives, you have to have another communication partner between, between the two that are consenting. You just have to.
- [47:24]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Right.
- [47:24]
Kai Dickens
You always have to have a third person. And, and you know, in our film, like, and also in our podcast, like, the subjects communicate with way more than one person. Right. There's usually coaches or communication partners or sometimes someone who comes to get like respite care, who spends time with the speakers. There's often a sibling, maybe one or both parents. And that's really important when it comes to major life decisions. You have to have like two or three people be like, yeah, this is definitely what they want.
- [47:51]
Gwyneth Paltrow
So as this kind of science is emerging or as these studies are emerging, are. Is the field starting to put some sort of ethical, these ethical guidelines around how.
- [48:02]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, I think it's critical and I mean that's been one of our biggest issues as well is like when we've been trying to talk to scientists to like do some telepathy testing. You know, people sometimes don't understand autism and they need to understand the consensual respect that is required here. Some of the things we've done for our film is we have five non speaking advisors, one who's a non speaking advisor around the science. And we, we've been getting so many emails about how to do the science and how to test it. So we said, great, let's do a roundtable where we get a lot of you together along with some non speakers and talk about that together because they have ideas about what's fair and not fair based on their apraxia. That stuff will be like, okay, we're going to put this on the table. And you did it. And it's like, no, no, I have an ocular motor problem. I need the spelling board right in front of my eyes. It doesn't mean I can't spell. It just means you have to meet me where I'm at. I can't meet you where you're at. So I think scientists often, you know, do come at this in an ableist, from an ableist perspective, which is like, whoa, you got to sit down at a table with a non speaker and say what, what works for your body and what feels safe for your body so that you can actually do this or show us what you know. So I think that's a big thing. There's a sweet story I want to share too, because, you know, so often what happens with apraxia is your emotions or what you might be doing with your body isn't reflecting what's. What's going on in the inside, which is really important to sit down and spell with someone. We. When we were shooting in Atlanta for the film recently, we were with Lily. You know, we had a few days doing stuff with her, and our final day, I said, lily, we're running out of time, but what do you want to do for the final hour or so? And she spelled a telepathy test, which I did not. I didn't have any scientists there. We didn't have anything ready. And I was like, why do you want to do that? We don't have any. The right people here. And she said, because you only have boys do it in the podcast. And I wanna show girls can do it too. And I was like, okay. And then it got really serious. Suddenly we were putting up GoPros around the room and different cameras coming in and partitions were being cut, and she's being here, and her dad has to go here, and everyone. No one can see. And it got really serious. Like, the energy moved. And then I noticed she started crying. So, you know, I got into my knees in front of her and I said, lily, like, we don't have to do this. We were just setting it up, and I didn't mean to make it so serious. We just thought, if we're doing a telepathy test, we better get it from all angles. And she picks up the letterboard, she spells, no. Literally, all my dreams are coming true. So, you know, you have to check in. You have to check in and. And you have to presume competence. You absolutely have to presume competence and make sure that this individual can spell with more than one person. So you absolutely know from, like, two veritable sources what they're feeling and wanting to do.
- [50:41]
Gwyneth Paltrow
That's so interesting. Wow, that's such a touching story. I think, you know, it's like, it's. It's so hard to be misunderstood in life, right? Even for us, like, verbal people. Like, it hurts to be misunderstood. It hurts when somebody puts words in your mouth. It hurts when nobody really sees the real you. And so this is, like, exponentially more painful, I would imagine, for non speakers who, like Lily. Imagine her. All her dreams are coming true. Because what. There's so much implicit in what she's saying. Right. Like, you are understanding her. You're changing the culture around this. Like, there's an opportunity for her to show the world that she also is capable of this and that they're. You know, there are layers of communication that non speakers might have that we just don't have. So.
- [51:38]
Kai Dickens
Yeah. Yeah. And really sweet, too. Like, we first did this. Love the tips with her good friend Lizzie, who's. Lily was in Lizzie's wedding. They're, like, close in age. And Lily's one of her communication regulation partners, but also just her good friend. So we're like, this is great. It's not a family member. Let's do. And let's hope that these apps are, you know, solid. And she got them. And then she's like, can I do it with my dad, too? And we were like, I'm worried about time. And we're like, okay, get Scott in there. But I did ask Lily, I said, why is it important to do it with your dad, too? And she's like, I want the world to see how. How well we're bonded. And I think she could. She knew it was important, you know, for her and her dad to just, like, present that bond as well. And it just. You know, there's so much love there. So much love.
- [52:19]
Gwyneth Paltrow
And what was the. What was the test that you were administering?
- [52:26]
Kai Dickens
You know, we. Again, we were on the fly, so we did. We pulled up a random number generator and a random word generator. And often I will ask, because sometimes non speakers will say, I have a really hard time with numbers because I need to see something that has an image. Or, you know, like, I can be like, I understand what the image is coming from that person's mind or. Some people do better with words. Some people do better with numbers. And, you know, like, people like Akilah can do all of it. And same with Mia. So I do ask because I do think that whether or not someone has this ability, that's a question, of course. But then, like, what. How strong is it? Something really special that we're doing in a few weeks, you know, when all this stuff around testing and testing and testing came up, I had a few conversations with non speakers and their families who. They said, you know, we don't even know what we're capable of. Like, this is something we just do in our house with the people we love, or this is just a survival thing. And I was like, well, do you guys want to, like, go somewhere and like we can just like practice your telepathy, like get like a few spelling communication partners and have a few of you in the room that are really good at this and see and they were like, yeah, so, so we're going to do that just to see. And I love it because there was a real question for them that's like at least the non speakers I talked to for this. We were like, yeah, I know I can do it with my mom and my teacher and my brother and I can hear everyone else's thoughts but I don't know who's else, you know, who can read me and blah blah blah blah. And could I type with, you know, this person spelling communication partner. And can we flip it all around and see what we're capable of so we can tell the scientists? Sure, we can do that test. You know.
- [53:59]
Gwyneth Paltrow
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- [55:14]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, I would say it's the baseline. I'd say it's the baseline to all of this. And I would also say the telepathic communication, at least for those who can hear it back, which many teachers and communication regulation partners and some parents say they can it. Usually it, yes. Deep, deep love has to be there, but also no agenda. Like you have to be able to clear out. Almost like you're in a meditative state.
- [55:37]
Gwyneth Paltrow
You know, like agnostic about the right. The answer.
- [55:41]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, yeah. Like another wonderful story to Share is Nina and Natalia that two of the new people who are going to be in the film. Who's the two sisters? The first time Natalia realized telepathy was real is they were out on a boat, their dad's boat. And Natalia was kind of like, I'm cold. I'm sick of this. I want to go in. And then all of a sudden, she gets a thought in her head that's like, no, can you please, dad, tell Dad I want to stay out. It's beautiful out, or something like that. And she's like, the heck? And she looked at her sister and her sister was kind of smiling and she was like, oh, my gosh. Like, did that just come from my sister? And there wasn't a letter board or anything there. But when they went back inside, she said, she asked, you know, Nina, did you send me a message into my brain when we were on the boat? And Nina said, yeah, I wanted you to know. And I stay and I want to stay out. And I'm paraphrasing because I don't remember exactly, but it was something along those lines. And Natalia has said that has continued, you know, that like, they'll be. She'll be shopping and she'll promise Nina, I'll come back with a book. And all of a sudden she'll hear. Come into her head and say, not that book. That book sucks. You know, and she. And then she'll come home and Nina will spell, I'm glad you didn't get that book. I don't want. Blah, blah, you know, whatever. And so, and so a lot of. And I love this because it's. Again, it's not about the telepathy is there with or about the spelling. Like, when people get obsessed about the spelling, it's like, like, okay, I mean, you need a foil to be like, this isn't true. And that's fine, that's okay. But like, it doesn't mean it's not true. And happening still to these families.
- [57:12]
Gwyneth Paltrow
I was. I was lived in Spain. I went on exchange when I was a teenager. And I live with a family that had identical twin sisters. I'm still very close to them, and they absolutely could communicate telepathically. It. It was bizarre. I mean, one time one fell off a moped and the other one kind of collapsed in agony. Like, it. I. There was. Were. There are hundreds of stories. I don't know if you call it telepathy, but whatever that is, there was no membrane between one and the other. And everybody sort of accepted it, you know, it was like this special gift that I think, you know, they came from the same cells dividing and so it was, you know, understandable, I guess. Like I had this, I don't know, it was really interesting listening to the podcast as a mother, you know, and like I found it so incredible like the, the dedication and the stick to itiveness and the open mindedness and like all of the ways in which mothers show up for their children. And I mean it does feel cellular. Right. It feels like this, I don't know anybody who's a mother understands, Right. Like that. That there is a cellular connection to this being and that you would really do anything for the well being of your child. Is that just. Was that just kind of my. Did is am I sort of uniquely reading into this like, or did you feel like, wow, there's like something between a mother and a child that's otherworldly and that you witnessed?
- [59:01]
Kai Dickens
Yeah, but you know, it's so, it's so complicated because yes, I think the love and sacrifice from these parents cannot be understated from the whole family. Yeah, I mean you have an individual who often as independent as they could get with some of their skills, still does need you all the time and especially when they're younger. And eloping, which means like running away, you know, just like every few minutes and, and, or, or eating everything in sight. Like John Paul used to eat nails and keys and you know, and then the, you know, they've locked up the, the kitchen and made sure that wouldn't happen, but you still can't control it. It's just, you know, just living the world. There's constant fear. And I read once somewhere that that for parents of someone with severe autism, they have as much trauma as like, like a PTSD from a war veteran, from being on high alert all day long. It never stops. So I think there is such love and care and that society needs to give the parents and I think that the, to reflect the love and care these parents are giving their children. Like it is a non stop sacrifice. So yeah, I mean, I think that was humbling to see because I think, you know, I have two neurotypical kids and I get so frustrated with them and I'll have the part in my day where I'm like, oh, can you just go do something? Or you know, or, or you find a moment of reprieve where it's like they're playing happily alone. And like I then to think that some parents never, ever, ever get that and then the fear compiled of like, will they ever communicate with me or connect with me. And one of the most beautiful stories that happens, this is a woman who's not into sloppathy tapes, but she, she. She and her son were going to Manisha's new autism, you know, foundation, and they teach spelling there. And. And anyway, but before this, this was a five year old, so he wasn't learning to spell yet, but they were doing stuff with memory cards, like, to point to memory cards so you could, like, learn those motor skills. And before the instructor would even say which card to point to, the boy would be pointing to it. And the mom got concerned and said, look, it seems like my boy is reading the mind because the instructor won't even ask the question already. He's going to the answer. And so, of course, then they were told, this is kind of common. I had a phone call with that mom, and she said, you know, what's so remarkable is that I've tested this at home, and he can do it with me. And the whole world, the whole, you know, medical doctors and educators told me, he'll never communicate with me. He's aloof. I'll never have a relationship with him. And she goes, and the irony is I have a more deep, intimate, connected relationship with him than probably any neurotypical parent.
- [61:42]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Wow. So beautiful. Well, I can't wait for this, this documentary. And thank you so much for such amazing content and for, you know, like, breaking this open for us. And it's been so wonderful to go on this journey alongside you. I feel like I've learned so much.
- [62:04]
Kai Dickens
Thank you. Thank you for having me on.
- [62:10]
Gwyneth Paltrow
This conversation reminded me how much mystery still exists in the way we connect and how quickly we also tend to dismiss what we can't fully explain. What I love about Kai's work is that it offers a perspective just to listen more closely and to honor the quiet intelligence in every human being. I hope you enjoyed today's podcast as much as I enjoy talking to Kai. So thank you for listening and see you next week. Thanks for tuning in. This has been a presentation of Cadence 13 Studios. I hope you'll listen, follow, rate, and review all of our episodes, which are available for free on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts.