The Tell: What Happens When You Finally Share Your Story

Summary

The Goop Podcast: "The Tell: What Happens When You Finally Share Your Story"

Introduction

In this deeply personal episode of The Goop Podcast, host Gwyneth Paltrow engages in an intimate conversation with Amy Griffin, an accomplished investor, entrepreneur, and champion for women in business. The discussion centers around Amy's groundbreaking book, The Tell, which delves into her harrowing journey of uncovering and overcoming childhood sexual assault. Through their candid dialogue, Gwyneth and Amy explore the transformative power of sharing one's story, the challenges of vulnerability, and the path to healing and self-acceptance.

Guest Introduction

Gwyneth Paltrow introduces Amy Griffin as a multifaceted professional who has built a formidable career supporting innovative companies and female founders. Amy's latest endeavor, her first book The Tell, is highlighted as a profound narrative of personal revelation and recovery.

Amy's Personal Journey

Amy Griffin opens up about her traumatic past, revealing deeply buried childhood memories of sexual assault. She discusses the initial denial and the subsequent journey towards acknowledging and processing her trauma.

Amy Griffin [05:04]: "I have something that happened to me that I didn't even know was there that I wasn't thinking about."

The conversation touches on how Amy's upbringing and societal expectations influenced her coping mechanisms, leading her to seek validation and purpose through external achievements and roles.

The Importance of Sharing One's Story

A central theme of the podcast is the liberation that comes from telling one's story. Amy explains how sharing her experiences with Gwyneth and others was pivotal in her healing process.

Amy Griffin [24:17]: "The telling to each person, the telling to you, the telling to John, the telling to my children. Every time I told, it got a little bit easier."

Gwyneth emphasizes the societal stigma surrounding personal trauma and the misconception that secrets keep individuals safe, countering it with the truth that secrecy often leads to emotional stagnation.

Gwyneth Paltrow [09:21]: "Secrets keep you stuck and sick."

The Telling Process

Amy outlines the multifaceted process of writing her book, describing it as living the story alongside the act of writing. She shares how journaling and later transitioning to digital writing with an iPad were instrumental in her self-discovery and healing.

Amy Griffin [33:11]: "The overall process... I must feel like a quarter of my brain got re plugged in."

Overcoming Isolation and Building Connections

The podcast delves into the impact of Amy's journey on her relationships. Amy discusses the initial fear of burdening loved ones with her pain and how openness led to deeper, more authentic connections.

Amy Griffin [30:25]: "When I came here today, and it's been so many years, I... I can just come to my friends when I'm."

Gwyneth and Amy highlight the significance of having a secure support system that can listen without judgment, fostering an environment where vulnerability is met with compassion.

Transformation and Self-Acceptance

As the conversation progresses, Amy reflects on her transformation from someone who sought external validation to embracing self-acceptance and inner integrity. She shares insights on letting go of perfectionism and building self-compassion.

Amy Griffin [38:39]: "I trust my memory. And you trust that memory might be off."

Gwyneth adds her perspective on dismantling societal programming that instills a sense of inadequacy, emphasizing the importance of self-validation over external approval.

Gwyneth Paltrow [53:38]: "We were taught that we're not enough, we're not good enough."

Advice to Others

Towards the end of the episode, Amy offers heartfelt advice to listeners who may be grappling with similar traumas. She encourages them to trust themselves, seek supportive relationships, and find the courage to share their stories.

Amy Griffin [70:02]: "Trust yourself... find the people in your life who can listen."

Conclusion

Gwyneth concludes the episode by celebrating Amy's courage and the profound impact of her book, The Tell. She underscores the importance of such conversations in empowering others to share their narratives and embark on their healing journeys.

Gwyneth Paltrow [72:48]: "I cannot encourage you all enough to order and read The Tell. It's available for pre-order now and I found it personally life-changing and I hope you do too."

Notable Quotes

• Amy Griffin [05:04]: "I have something that happened to me that I didn't even know was there that I wasn't thinking about."
• Gwyneth Paltrow [09:21]: "Secrets keep you stuck and sick."
• Amy Griffin [24:17]: "The telling to each person, the telling to you, the telling to John, the telling to my children. Every time I told, it got a little bit easier."
• Amy Griffin [38:39]: "I trust my memory. And you trust that memory might be off."
• Gwyneth Paltrow [53:38]: "We were taught that we're not enough, we're not good enough."

Final Thoughts

This episode of The Goop Podcast serves as a powerful testament to the resilience of the human spirit and the essential role of storytelling in personal healing. Gwyneth and Amy’s conversation not only sheds light on the complexities of trauma and recovery but also offers a beacon of hope for anyone seeking to reclaim their narrative and find strength in vulnerability.

Transcript

[Acura]

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[Amy Griffin]

Hey, Google, turn it up.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Okay.

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[Gwyneth Paltrow]

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[Amy Griffin]

Are pioneering anything or introducing new ideas to the culture, you get criticized.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

You do.

[Amy Griffin]

Yeah, did you hear about that?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I didn't find the one. I found someone I respected and we.

[Amy Griffin]

Made it the one. In the sort of longing kind of view of love, people understand each other as if by magic. Nothing in itself is addictive on the one hand. On the other hand, everything could be addictive if there's an emptiness in that person that needs to be filled.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I now know that nobody changes until.

[Amy Griffin]

They change their energy.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And when you change your energy, you change your life. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow. This is the GOOP Podcast, bringing together thought leaders, culture changers, creatives, founders and CEOs, scientists, doctors, healers and seekers here to start conversations. Because simply asking questions and listening has the power to change the way we see the world. Here we go. Hi, everybody, and welcome back to the GOOP Podcast. So today I'm sitting down with my dear friend, Amy Griffin, really one of my closest, closest friends. Amy is many things. She's an unbelievable investor. She's an entrepreneur and a champion for women in business, the likes of which I really have never seen. So Amy has built a powerhouse career backing some of the most innovative companies and founders. She's a true champion of women. Just like, look at her Instagram and you'll know What I'm talking about today is a little bit different for me because I could talk to Amy all day about her business acumen and the investments that she's made and what she loves so much about female founders. But Amy has written a book, her first book, and it's called the Tell. It comes out March 11. And it's very different for me because I was a witness and kind of one of the wheels on Amy's bus as she navigated through her deeply, deeply personal journey of revelation to uncover deeply buried childhood memories of sexual assault and her recovery from them, which really started with a journey that she took, a journey that started with listening to her inner knowing and taking the brave leap from there. So I'm really, deeply thrilled and honored to have Amy on our podcast today. What you will hear is a conversation between two deep friends, two women who know all each other's secrets and have been there for each other in our adult lives in a way that is very profound. It's an unbelievable book. I'm so deeply proud of her, and I hope you enjoy today's conversation. It's super interesting because, you know, I had, like, a front row seat to this, to the whole. I mean, it's really quite extraordinary. When I look back, when I think about this book and the journey of it, it's like, normally if I'm talking to someone about a book, it's like they've written a book, and then I read the book, but I was sort.

[Amy Griffin]

Of living the book.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I was living the book with you.

[Amy Griffin]

Yeah. I mean, I think the most interesting thing about the book, you didn't even have to ask me a question.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

That's what we're like.

[Amy Griffin]

I think that's because I can see it in your eyes. It's the same thing. The way that when we sat across from each other and I told you my story, how full circle it is for me that the book is called the Tell.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Amy Griffin]

And you're saying that you lived the book with me, and that's the truth of this book, that I've, you know, I felt this urgency to write it, but yet I was living it as I was writing it. And you know this. I wrote this book first without knowing that anyone was ever going to read it.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Amy Griffin]

So you and your iPad, Me and my iPad.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I know. It's really funny. You know, I look back and I think, like, when I met you, this story didn't emerge until years and years and years into our friendship and into your life. And when I met you, you know, I was so taken with you. I don't know how many years ago it is now 15 or something like that.

[Amy Griffin]

I think it's something like 15.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah. I was like, oh, man. Who is this beautiful, incredibly positive, brilliant woman? You know, you. You. You were sort of at this point in your life with your four beautiful kids and your husband in this full life, and you were really kind of in expansion mode. You know, you were trying to figure out what you wanted to do. You had been, you know, you had worked and gone to college and been like, volleyball, amazing, Division 1 volleyball athlete. Like, you were. But you. You sort of were ruminating on what your purpose was outside of your four kids, which is so typical of so many women. Like, I. I had my kids and I have this squib, but what is next for me? Like, what am I here for? What is. What is the purpose of this? And it was like watching someone in. In motion. Like. And also, you never landed. You were always moving. And as I got to know you better and better over the years, I thought, like, wow, there's a lot of moving here. There's a lot of giving. There's an incredible generosity, but there's always movement behind the giving. And I thought, like, well, Amy's just so amazing, and she's busy and she's taking it all on, but, like, sometimes I would think, what is underneath this? Like, what? Like, why can't she land?

[Amy Griffin]

Sometimes I think when you're closest to something, and at the time, I wasn't thinking, why can't I land?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Amy Griffin]

I was just going, yeah. And, you know, at the time, and I still feel this way. I think this is definitely part of my roots and something that I love about myself is that I was looking at others, including you, a lot. You. I wanted every single thing on the goop, every little tidbit that you were giving us. I was trying to make every stew and go to every restaurant, and I wanted your hair color and. But truthfully, I was looking. I was looking to others, and I still love doing that. I love the relationships that. That I've built, both from my friend perspective and the work perspective. But I was looking outward for answers and thinking that if I could just help another person or another person and look at them, then I don't really have to look at myself. I don't have to be honest about my own life as long as I keep everybody else happy and I keep dancing for everyone else.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I observe that that's really a trait that a lot of women, most women that I know who've had abuse, sexual abuse and otherwise. There's like, this outsourcing of your wholeness and validation to others.

[Amy Griffin]

Right.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

It's like what's taken from you is so crushing, and you're left with the.

[Amy Griffin]

Message, you're not enough.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

You're not enough.

[Amy Griffin]

You're not enough.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

So we go out into the world to prove that. Incorrect.

[Amy Griffin]

Isn't it interesting sometimes when you look at someone and they may Thus. What is it? Thus style. Protest. Protest too loudly.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Lady doth protest too much.

[Amy Griffin]

You can do the Shakespeare part. Lady doth protest too much. But that's how I felt. I mean, at the time. So if I could just scream so loudly about other people, about how wonderful they were, and I could see. I could see parts of them that I loved in myself, or I could just reach outside myself, I still wasn't having to pay attention to myself.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah. Yeah. Because, you know, as it turned out, you. You know, like, most people don't pay attention to themselves because there's pain in there they don't want to deal with. Like I hear, you know, whenever. I remember once when Apple was little, you know, something painful came up, and she was like, just don't think about it, Moses. And I was like, no. You know, but. But we. We are taught, or we learn or our society tells us that. But in your case, you know, there was this thing that you didn't even know was there that you weren't thinking about.

[Amy Griffin]

And I think when I slowed down, that I would then speed back up, because that was the whole idea of building these castles around me that I don't have to. I could build this beautiful life. And, you know, I think I read somewhere in some trauma book that people can sometimes gravitate towards big cities because if you think about your attention span, New York City, even to cross the street, you've got to pay attention. You've got five things going on just to get across the street. And I like living that way. I mean, I think sometimes some of the greatest strengths I have also come from what happened to me. And the beauty of all of this is now that I know who I am, I know why I do the things I do. So if I freak out because an elevator is crowded and I say, excuse me, I'm stepping out, I can laugh at it. Now I know why I do the things I do. And that's partly the age that we are, the experiences that we've had. Our children are not so young that we have to make sure they're not falling in the swimming pool. So there has been time. And I mean, you know that I think you might have said to me once, Amy, you're a completely different person. And I am in many regards. And I'm proud, I'm proud of the work that I've done behind the scenes.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Looking back, when you think about what it was like before you told this story to yourself before the tell of. Because the first person you had to tell was you before that event, which we'll get to, what was it like to be having to move so much that you, you know, like what, what was the felt sense of trying to cover over that?

[Amy Griffin]

Well, but that's the whole point that I didn't realize that I was doing that. I just thought that was a life, right? And I think I talk about this in the book, in, in the writing that I was training for this race and I thought, you know, I came to my husband one day and said, guess what? I'm going to train for this race and I'm going to get up at 5 and go to the Y in New York and then I'm going to get the kids to school and then I'm going to go back and then I'll do work and this and this after, of course he said, okay, I'll.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Support you, but this is your iron man, your triathlon thing.

[Amy Griffin]

I think I remember online when my husband was posting on it and I think why I remember this now, Gwyneth, you posted, dear God, when is this going to be over? In the middle of the race, which made me laugh.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

16 fucking hours. I was so worried for your health.

[Amy Griffin]

Made me. I look back, I mean, I look back and I laugh at that. When you said, dear God, when is this all going to be over? This is long after the race is over, in the middle of the night. But the truth of it is, and you as someone who I think of as someone who knows himself so well in terms of the life that you've lived, you really are so boundaried in the most beautiful way. I mean, sometimes I'm scared of it, but I so have so much respect and I've learned so much from you for it. But it was that night, you know, I finished this race that I had prepared for almost a year for and with so many of my parents, my dearest friends, and my coach standing there with me late in the night, and I remember thinking, oh, that didn't do it. That didn't do it. That didn't get it out of me. So what's next?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Didn't get what out of you?

[Amy Griffin]

I didn't know.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right, you didn't know. But something I didn't know.

[Amy Griffin]

But throughout. And I write about this, you know, the writing of this book, which, as you said, you lived it with me. I feel like I've lived in three different parts of this. It's been a lot of like, the parts of the telling. And you're right, the telling to me and then the processing of everything that happened to like, really. Sometimes I think back, it's been five years of, you know, I'll think, you know, did I really sleep on my floor of my closet? And I did, you know, I did. And my husband covered me with a blanket. And so there was the telling and then there was the processing. But in the midst of the processing to imagine that I was also running a criminal investigation and dealing with a mental crisis and a physical crisis and a criminal process that I was trying to do because I thought, oh, that's what I do. And that's what we as women do all the time anyway. We're always running a million processes in our brains as a mother in work, like, that's just what we do. Right. And so I think, you know, the book and then the third part is this aftermath. The aftermath of recognizing what I really needed had nothing to do with this crazy roller coaster that I'd been on, this story that just I felt like I was living in, you know, a horror movie or I'm not even sure what the genre was at the time.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Acura]

Acura's all new avx. A compact SUV that isn't just built for one thing. It's precision crafted for everything. To escape the grind. With available all wheel drive to go with your flow. With available Google built in.

[Amy Griffin]

Hey, Google, turn it up.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Okay.

[Acura]

Turning up the volume. And crafted to be heard with an available Bang and Olufsen premium sound system. The all new Acura adx. Crafted to match your energy. Acura precision crafted performance take your vibes.

[Amy Griffin]

On Go, go, go, Go.

[Acura]

Google is a trademark of Google llc.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

So let's go back to the night that we were sitting at your table or the day I came in to your little breakfast room in East Hampton. I think it was dinner, it was lunch.

[Amy Griffin]

And I locked eyes with you and I was staring at the coffee cup. And so I have this connection with the plastic Starbucks coffee cup. As I was thinking to myself, I have. I'm making an offering to you. Can you know, Can I tell you something? Can I tell you something? I don't even know if it Was the coffee you drank. I don't even know. I handed you a cup and I said, can we. Can we go upstairs?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Wait, but before that. Yeah, before that. Yes, that was morning. I'll never forget that.

[Amy Griffin]

Oh, sorry. This is something you probably. Probably.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

No. So I'm. So I was talking about the moment where I came to your house and sitting in the breakfast room, but it might have been lunch or dinner as well, where you looked at me and you were like, there's something different about you.

[Amy Griffin]

Oh, oh, oh, oh, sorry.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

No, we're gonna get to the other. Sorry.

[Amy Griffin]

I'm jumping, I'm running, I'm sprinting.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

There she is.

[Amy Griffin]

But I don't do that anymore.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

You know what?

[Amy Griffin]

Try not to.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

You know what? It's so. You know, it's so amazing. It's like your instinct. Right. We're so hardwired to do the things we do, but it's like you've got the bridal on yourself now.

[Amy Griffin]

That's right.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And it's amazing to watch because you'll. You'll wrap yourself up, like, gotta go. And then you're like, nope. And you sort of pull on your little. Is that your horse lady? Isn't that what's. What is that called?

[Amy Griffin]

I mean, sort of western style. Yes. The bit you sort of.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

You. You pull on your own bit. Yeah. And you remember, you're like, nope, I'm going to correct. Okay, but take me back to that day where we were sitting and what do you.

[Amy Griffin]

Where you said, well, I remember it was dinner. You're exactly right. I could never challenge your memory.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

My memory sucks.

[Amy Griffin]

I would never challenge anyone's memory because their memory is their memory. And how you associate things. And I associate part of my story with this idea that we were having dinner and we were having this wonderful conversation. And the conversation came up around psychedelics and using MDMA with veterans. And we just had a really interesting conversation. And I had been in several of those conversations with my husband. And then I just looked at you. I looked over at you and I said, what I just knew. And I said, what's different about you? And that might have caused us to actually have the conversation. I don't remember which came first, but then there was this peace about you. There was this calmness. And I always thought of you as a calm person anyway. But I think that there was this knowing, this calmness. There was just a shift because I hadn't seen you in several months. And you said, I've just had some experiences. I've really been going Inward and doing some work.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah. And that was when I told you that I had done the therapeutic MDMA with the therapist and. And how much. And you. And I remember because you also said, oh, your. You. Your relationship with your mom is so gentle. Remember? You're like, what. What shifted? You know, you're not annoyed with your mom anymore. And I was like, well, I had this incredible experience, and I told you about it, and you. And it was something that you were already researching anyway, so it's not like I'm taking credit for pushing over the edge, but you decided you were going to do the mdma. And I remember sitting with you beforehand and saying to you, like, are you. Are you worried about this? And you were like, no, my life's been so good. Like, I don't think I have anything to worry about. Do you remember that?

[Amy Griffin]

I don't remember the specific conversation. I remember where we're sitting. But I think it's also interesting because I remember having feelings of being very reticent, because, you know, I'm the. I hate alcohol, and it's so boring. I don't. I mean, people make a big deal. Like, Amy drank a margarita last night. Margarita with salt, skinny, spicy, whatever you.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Want to call it.

[Amy Griffin]

I don't even know how to order. Someone has to order it for me. So this was. It was so new to me, the idea that I was going to be taking something and have it being out of control. And I don't think I really understood. I just knew that I needed to go in and do this for myself. And what's interesting is you're right. I think that was also a defense when I said that to you as well, because when I went in to talk to the woman I was working with the first day, you know, I said to her, I know there's a lot that I need to address, but I. And I said, I know these are around the ages, and I just don't want to address it right.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And I remember the day you were doing it. And I remember I said to Brad, I don't even know if I've ever told you this. I was like, I hope. I hope it's gonna be okay. Like, I hope there's not some thing that's gonna be revealed to her that's gonna be really gnarly.

[Amy Griffin]

You knew?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah, I guess I did know on some level. I mean, I. I did know on some level after.

[Amy Griffin]

Yeah, I remember. Tell me, isn't memory interesting? I remember after, when I told you, you said, I knew. I told Brad I knew. I told Brad. And, you know, I think it's something that's so interesting about the process of mdma, because the psychedelic piece, because I've worked so hard for so many years, because I wanted to one, either discredit it in my brain to say that couldn't have been true, because it was through, you know, this experience with a psychedelic assisted drug. And so I wanted to find a way out, like, another way out. I think that the running the race was a way out. A lot of the things, the castles, I say, the castles, the world that I'd built up around me, it was if I could just build a life around me that was moving so fast and was so big that then I didn't have to even be honest with myself. And, you know, I think that I realize now that the MDMA piece was only one very small piece of this pie that I could give myself credit for. It was essentially this decision. This decision I made to actually take the mdma, to take the pill, to go give myself time, that. That. That alone, just without even taking the pill, this decision to go be with myself. And also keep in mind, this was. My daughters were at the same ages that I was.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Amy Griffin]

When I. Around. Around my abuse.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Amy Griffin]

And I had. And this is the one that's really important. And I have the most. I had the most secure partner. I had the most secure relationship of 20 years where I was really, finally able to say, you know what? Okay, I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go be honest with myself.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah. And trust that no matter what is revealed, that.

[Amy Griffin]

That. That I can handle it.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right. And that John can handle it.

[Amy Griffin]

Well, exactly. And I think that is something that is so incredible that to know that I would not be tossed out, to know that I would still be worthy. I love. I love the idea that when I was thinking about this recently, I was telling my girls about how when I met John and how John had had other girlfriends, I had dated other people. But when I met John and someone said, oh, he's never going to settle down, and I never for one second after I met him, I knew we would be together for forever, and he felt the same way, there was never a moment where I thought, maybe it's not me. Maybe he doesn't think I'm worthy. Maybe he doesn't think I'm good enough. I never had that with him. I never felt that. I never felt that. That idea that I talk about in the book of, you know, when does. When did we as women stop doing cartwheels when did we lose that sense of wonder that a Popsicle. We wanted to have a Popsicle because it tasted so great. And care that someone else was looking at our body or what our body looked like or that we were performing for someone else.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Amy Griffin]

And so I had that secure partnership when I went in this moment to go and have this experience for myself.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

So everything was aligned for you to have the experience that you.

[Amy Griffin]

That you had very much.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And I remember afterwards, you were like, I can't. I'm not. I'm not ready to talk about it. And I was like, oh, shit.

[Amy Griffin]

So, by the way, that was a gift to myself too, because. And I haven't really thought about that for a long time. I had to reckon with myself for a long time. For many, many weeks.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Amy Griffin]

Before I could say the words out loud again.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I know.

[Amy Griffin]

And that's the beauty of it. That's what's so amazing. That's why when I started writing and I looked back at it and I realized for me, the power of the telling. It was so lonely in those five, six weeks, three, four. I can't remember exactly how many it was before I told anyone else. I thought, I am the only person in the entire world who's ever been through this. And that's why. And that's why I'd beaten it back in submission in my brain. But then when I did tell you, it was the telling to each person, the telling to you, the telling to John, the telling to my children. Every time I told, it got a little bit easier. And there was this incredible connection of a relationship. Not a trauma bond, but this idea. When I could say to you, I think when I was going back to that coffee cup that I handed you, it was my offering to say, can I. Can I share something with you? Can I connect? And. And so as I wrote and wrote and wrote, when I look back, it was these relationships of the telling that saved me. First to myself and then others.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah. I'll never forget you telling me. We were up in your bedroom, in the office. I don't think I've ever. Certainly had a reaction like that when a friend has opened up about something. I just. I sort of blacked out. I remember, like, heaving on your floor.

[Amy Griffin]

Yes, I was gonna let you say that. I didn't know. It was both so hard to see that reaction, but it was also so loving because you were feeling for me. And it was this me allowing again in the telling, allowing you to feel for me. And that was, you know, there's so much freedom the second that I did that. But then there was also me not wanting to make you sad and to make.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

There's the caretaker.

[Amy Griffin]

The caretaker. But I was able to put that guard down a little bit and just let someone love me. And then I kept trying that on with all those in my life and that I really care about. And I think that the telling for anything that goes on in someone's life, I think people have experienced far worse than I've experienced. I feel like what I went through was awful, but just the ability to go and find someone else that you care about and that you. The relationships in your life, and if you don't have that, then that burden of the secret is so difficult. And the thing that is so powerful is that I think we have been brought up to think that secrets, like, secrets keep us safe. The tighter you keep them to you, they keep us so safe. But really they keep you stuck.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Secrets keep you stuck and sick.

[Amy Griffin]

And sick.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And I think totally on an island unto yourself. It's like if you have no secrets, meaning if you are totally honest about who you are, first to yourself and then to the people who love you, you're in integrity. And that's where all the power is, 100%. It's in that unity between. And that's what's been so amazing about watching you go through this process is like the real you, this you that we have now that is just like this strong, amazing, integrated person. She was desperate to come out, but. And you built this life around, like, keeping it way back in the recesses of your mind to protect yourself. But really, when you did tell yourself the story, like, thus began this unbelievable process that I was. I've been so honored to witness of you slowly taking these baby steps. Right. Because first of all, I mean, can we just say that that first year after you told yourself the story, that was like, one of the hardest years. I mean, just as a friend I've ever had, you know, like, to watch you traverse through that, there was a depth of darkness and despondency. And there were times where I really thought, like, was this worth it?

[Amy Griffin]

Yes. But you're the very person that said to me, and we talk about this so often, that life is all about having one foot in a bucket of hot water and one foot in a bucket of cold water.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

That's right.

[Amy Griffin]

And that's what makes a life.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

That's right.

[Amy Griffin]

And don't think that there weren't. There were feelings on either side. There were feelings on both sides that I worried sometimes that I was burdening you and my closest friends with being too sad.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Never.

[Amy Griffin]

But let me tell you, for you to see me come out of it and to watch me come out of it, to remind me that I went through it, is part of the connection.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I know.

[Amy Griffin]

And you know, when I came here today, and it's been so many years, I came here today and I. I think one of the things that's so incredible is even then you would say I was a joyful person, I hope always. But I live from such inner integrity, from such inner peace and freedom that all of my relationships are better. So every relationship I have in my life, I would think that when I would say, hopefully five or six years ago, when I was ragged and I had a million sinus infections and I was always thinking, if I hadn't done enough for that person, I was always thinking maybe I forgot to invite that person or I somehow didn't, you know, say the right thing. Now I live from a place that is so different than that, that I actually realize how much better I am for everyone in my life.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yes.

[Amy Griffin]

How much more centered and grounded I am for, for friends like you and also our relationship of having gone through this together. You know, there's just nothing that can transcend this in, in a friendship. And, and so I guess. Can I just. Can I say thank you?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

No. Don't make me cry. I have very dry lips, so I've always been something of a lip balm and lip mask connoisseur, if I do say so myself. So I wanted to make the best ever lip mask, like, better than anything on the market, better than anything I ever tried. Because it's what I needed. That's why I'm excited to share our newest GOOP product with you. The Nourishing repair lip Mask. Formulated with high performance clean ingredients, this mask delivers clinical grade results, increasing hydration by over 160% with just one swipe. The result, smoother, softer and more protected lips that look as good as they feel immediately and over time. At goop, we believe in beauty as wellness. That's why our products are carefully crafted to be clean, holistic and results driven. To try our nourishing lip repair mask or any of our Goop Beauty products, use code goop [e-mail] for 15% off your first Goop Beauty purchase. I'm really excited for you to try our products and I hope you love them as much as I do. When you think about those, even irrespective of like, because there's I think there's, there's a part of watching you on this journey that is like, I feel like this, this revelation that you had has really supercharged you, like propel you into this version of yourself, like the grown up, integrated woman, you know, that you were like. There was something much more childlike about you before this happened. Not that you still don't have like joy and wonder and you get more excited.

[Amy Griffin]

Cartwheels again now. Not as good at them anymore as I was growing up in Texas, but I still can. I can do a cartwheel.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

You could do anything physical. It's insane. But what, what is like the, what are the things that, like those, those steps of acceptance along the way? Like, was it really. How did you contextualize that? You know, like we, because we go through like bad happens or even bad things we do to ourselves. Like we cheat on someone, we tell a lie, we, you know, you, you lie in bed and think like, or, you know, someone hurts you or someone is abuse you. Like, what are the steps that you took to alchemize what happened to you, you know, and like recontextualize it to make it so that it was your ally?

[Amy Griffin]

Well, the overall process, if I give an analogy, I think about the idea that if you live on a block and you live on a street and you walk down that street every day and you always walk on the right hand side of the street to get to your house, and you get to the door and you open the door so you always see the tree the same way and then you always walk on that side of the street. I feel like this was a complete reprocessing of my brain. I must feel like a quarter of my brain got re plugged in.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Wow.

[Amy Griffin]

And I now have crossed the street and I walk on the left hand side of the street and I can now look across at the house and walk to the house on a different side of the street with a completely different perspective of myself and, and the people around me. And I think that it's a great point of, you know, I only look back now and I think I'm so grateful to my husband for a million reasons. But in that real darkness when there was very little light, and I don't like to remember it because it was very, very dark, he handed me a journal and said, you're really good at writing this. Just go write. I don't think he even said to me, this will save you. But that saved me.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah, it did.

[Amy Griffin]

It saved me. And then, as you know, I Was writing so furiously. And I like to think I have this handwriting that looks a lot like my grandmother's. But sadly it's so bad now that I can't even read it anymore. So I'd filled these journals and then again my husband came back and said, hey, I got you something. And he said, I got you an iPad. It's just tiny little iPad. Just go and write and that way you can write faster and harder and longer. And so I sort of transferred all of the. Moving quickly and fast. I would sit on the floor in my bathroom, which is where I feel like everything happens for everyone. Either in the water, in the bathtub with my iPad, or on, on the floor in the middle of the night. And I wrote and wrote and wrote and wrote. So you asked about the process and the process is now I feel there is. I went through so many waves to get to where I am now. But I have it. I have it all documented because there was a fear, a deep, deep fear that if I didn't write down every single thing I ate, every single thing I did for years, that then I would forget it. Because how could I have forgotten all of this?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right, right, right. Like it's. It must have. It must have been like impossible to. I mean, it must have brought up a fear of like you, you not being reliable to your own self. Like that your memory has the capacity to fall away underneath you.

[Amy Griffin]

So I was recently at about an NBA basketball game and I was watching, some of the person next to me said, why are you staring at the side of the team? Why are you staring at that team? You're not watching players on the court. And I was fascinated with this woman. So then I thought to myself, oh, I'm fascinated with this woman because she's a female coach for an NBA basketball team. This is so cool. This is like so up my alley. And then. But as I looked at her, I said, I know her. I know her intimately. I know her well. I know her movements. I know the way she's looking up, like talking into the players faces. I know her, the way she walks, her hair, like I know her really well. I've spent time with her and I was just staring and I was taking videos, taking pictures. So I leave the game and I go and I look at the team and someone in the car reads and says, oh, this is who it is. She was a college basketball player at the University of Virginia, two years above me. We'd spent tons of time together. I haven't seen her in 25 years. But even just in the way that she moved her body and her arms and her limbs and was talking to me, I could imagine the way she would be talking to me at a party or saying, we're going to do this. And if you'd asked me who was going to be an NBA coach for. For a male team, I probably would have said this woman. But oddly enough, that story reminded me that my memory, that I. The way I remember things is real.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Amy Griffin]

Is that. Does that make any sense?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

It makes absolute sense. And you know this. Like you. You remember things in pictures. Like even when you start telling me about the. The coffee cup from Starbucks. That's emblematic of. You know, it's like you sort of have these really strong memories of physical things. It's like in the book, you talk about it in the bathroom. I mean, and that always struck me so much like when you were suffering this abuse that you were so fixated on the tiles and the color of the. You, like, it was like this way to give you a framework that you were alive and you were okay. Right. Like the visualizations of all these things. And you still. Like it's you. Your memory is always like that. You know, it doesn't surprise me at all.

[Amy Griffin]

And I think one of the. A great gift too is in coming to under. To trust your memory.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yes.

[Amy Griffin]

Like for all of us to trust your memory, which is also trusting your instinct, but to trust your memory and not have to go searching. And that's, you know, the story alongside of all the telling was, you know, as I was writing it, I think that I was telling myself, this all really happened. This all really happened. It's. It's really wonderful to say that you can get to a place where you don't say that anymore.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Amy Griffin]

You trust your memory.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Amy Griffin]

And you also trust that memory might be off. You know, I might have remembered giving you a decaf and the straw might have been red, and you said, no, the straw was green. But still the memory was there. And it's just how I processed it. And I've tried to. One of the things I tried to do was to read every possible book on memory and how memory works and what does it mean and how could I, I think in some ways to try to discredit myself.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Amy Griffin]

I couldn't. And that was part of my own telling. That was part of my own investigative search. Yeah. You go, you read the book, you see this crazy story. It's like this crime novel that's going on. It is at the same time, which you know, I've had people say to me, well, I would have, you know, I can help you with bringing in different investigators. Or what were you thinking at this time? Why did you do this this way? Or why did you do. I said it wasn't about that. I was trying to stay alive for myself in my inner self. There was so much inner turmoil. I talk about this a little bit that to be running parallel me as the criminal investigator. I'm, you know, if I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it well. So I'm going to do that myself and I'm also going to heal. But at the same time, I've got to wrap it all up as we do as women in a big pink bow and say, I did it. I took care of this person so that I can say to my children that I made sure this person will be held accountable. I also get to be validated because it makes everyone believe me. And then I'm also healed and I'm perfect. Right. And that just.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

It's not the way it goes. But I obviously. But I. I love your. The self awareness. Right. It's like even when you were doing all that stuff, you knew. And I think you knew that you, you. Even though there were days that were so hard and dark and dramatic, you know, when you were doing all your investigation and the huge disappointments that came and the people who let you down and the misinformation you were given about laws and like all the stuff that was happening, I think you did know that it was. You were chewing through this stuff. You were chewing through what happened to you. You were chewing through how it could have happened to you. You were chewing through the idea of consequence and accountability and who you were. And so it was like this. It was all part of the process.

[Amy Griffin]

And guess who the accountability lies with? Myself, in the most beautiful way. I never. I've been asked a million times, what did you want to happen? How do you want this to play out? I. I don't even. I can't even answer that right now. All I can say is I took accountability for myself, which is compassion for myself.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Amy Griffin]

And I think the word that has come to me so many times with my children, especially with my children and my friends and as a woman, is this permission.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Amy Griffin]

The word permission to tell your story. No story is too small. Just to share it and to realize. I've had, I think, I think this other piece in writing it with the permission first for myself, permission for me to ask you gwyneth can I tell you this story? Because I have to make sure that you're in a place that you're okay to hear it. And what I realized was, as I was writing, and this is where it went from me realizing that this was a story that I wrote for myself to. Oh, my gosh, the more I tell the story, the freer I become is that every time I went to tell someone, I mean, it was like all the time. Many, many, many, many, many times, the person, I would see it in their eyes, and then I would realize, oh, my gosh, this person is now about to tell me their story.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

That's right.

[Amy Griffin]

And so the telling switched gears so many times, such that the permission in another woman's eyes came right back to me. And then there was this incredible opening to say, you know, with eyes, locked eyes, it's okay.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah. And it's not yours. It's not.

[Amy Griffin]

It's not mine.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

It's not yours. You know, I think that's the real. The real damage is things happen to us, and then we hold it as it's ours, and then it's our burden to carry that someone else's shame becomes our shame. And that's not true. And there. That's. That there's. You're right. I mean, there's such freedom in women being able to say, you know, this also happened to me, and this is. This is my story. And for us to be able to hold that for each other.

[Amy Griffin]

I heard a woman recently at this beautiful gathering talk about how she, for the first time, was even just saying, you know what? I do everything for my husband. I cook, I clean for him. I do everything. I actually never had an opinion for myself about what I want. And she loved her husband. She loves her husband, but she sort of made this comment of, oh, my gosh, this is about me. I'm going to have opinions now. I'm going to stand up for myself. What do I want? What do I care about? I don't know how relevant that is to my story, but this idea that even that woman was given permission to say, this is who I am, and start from that.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Because our culture and society is just not set up that way, that we are allowed to turn inward and contemplate who we are and what we want, you know, we're. We're not raised that way. I mean, I hope that Gracie and Gigi and Apple and all their friends are more raised that way, you know, in this generation, but I don't think we were raised that way. It was all about, you know, it wasn't. I certainly was not pointed in the direction of like, hey, who are you really? Who are you really? And what do you think you're here to do? It was, like, so confusing to always be trying to fulfill somebody else's idea of who I was supposed to be.

[Amy Griffin]

And what are the social norms at the time. And it was. I definitely was such a different time. But, you know, what are the constructs that you're supposed to fit into? What boxes are you supposed to fit into as a woman so that you are doing. Being the perfect girl, you know, being the. The good girl and doing the right things and. And as someone who is. And there are parts of me I think I love the whole parts. Therapy, I love all of that is separating out. I think that in doing this work, I realized, okay, I can take some of these parts and I can throw them out and say, I don't want those anymore. I'm done with those. But I love a lot of the parts of me. I love the southern parts of me. I love a thank you note.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I know, Me too.

[Amy Griffin]

Like my sweet mother who. My incredible mother who I would not have survived without, thank God, I had this incredibly loving parents and in community to go home to that, you know, I could have gone down different paths, but I had this incredibly nurturing, loving family, but at the same time had to protect myself because I didn't want to hurt them. Because I. They said, I was told, you will not be believed. You will not be loved because you have this wonderful family if you share. Yeah. There's the parts of me that I love, and I can say, okay, I'm going to keep those and deal and throw some of them out. But I love. I love the athlete part of me. I love the ambitious side of me. I love that it doesn't all come from the trauma, and some of it probably does. And I've even recognized that I might keep some of the trauma stuff.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Amy Griffin]

I love to walk into a room and say, I can tell you who's hungry. I need to go know who needs to use the restroom. Let's figure out, like, you know, who we need to move it along. And I like that part of me.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah. And that it's interesting. Right. Because trauma is a. Like you. You build a personality around coping with trauma, surviving trauma. And I think that that's part of it. Right. Like you're sort of the thermostat, like, oh, this. This guy's a little hot. I'm gonna cool it down this Woman's a little cold. I'm gonna warm her up. You know, it's like, it's a certain, you know, co dependence. I guess I definitely suffered from the same.

[Amy Griffin]

But I can also, like you said, I can put the bridle back on and think, oh, I can kind of laugh at myself and say. Or you can make fun of me, g and say, you're doing. You're doing it again.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

How was it to tell the girls?

[Amy Griffin]

Well, I think it was the day I dreaded. Well, looking back at it, I thought I dreaded it more than any day of my life. But actually, even in going in to go tell them was the most liberating experience of my life. So while I was so fearful, and I was fearful around their maturity or where they would. How they would handle it, I knew. I knew that they are these. They are my teachers. They are the greatest extensions of me. Both so different but so wise in so many ways. And if I could tell you, it was. It was this divine intervention in my life for both of my girls. They both said things that I write about in the book that. That no adult could have actually said at the time. They were very, very young, very knowing that this is something that's still really hard for me. They gave me. They gave that missing piece of me back to me in the acknowledgment that this happened. And. And then it also set us on this path of. Not that, I mean, my relationship with my children, I think has always been wonderful, but there was this idea as a mother that I thought it was in the doing for them. So it was the taking them to soccer class, the making sure that the romper was the right hem length and that the donuts were hot for the parent teacher appreciation. And that wasn't it. And I realized that I needed to show up for them in different ways that had nothing to do with the doing for them, but the really being there with them. And I think, I hope I could say that they would tell me anything or come to me and say, look how vulnerable my mom was. It's hard. I think it's probably hard with any mother daughter relationship to have vulnerability, but I was at my lowest. I was putting myself out there in a way that I've never put myself out there in terms of being vulnerable. And while I've never said, and I hope I never say on a podcast or in doing this that I'm brave, because I don't know that it's brave, I just know people have said that back to me But I know I was vulnerable. And that word vulnerable is so powerful. There's so much power in vulnerability.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah, there really is.

[Amy Griffin]

And people don't realize that there's so much power in vulnerability.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Do you think that. Did you get a sense that their childhoods were different from that point or your dynamic with them was different from that point?

[Amy Griffin]

For me, it was like completely. It was like a new door opened. It was a different way. I think they talk about it. They've said to me many times, mom, you would have not done that before. You would have handled this differently. They will actually point out the instances where I would have done something differently. And we can laugh about it now. I'm sure I still drive them crazy, but we have just real, honest, open conversations. And they've also gotten older. But, you know, at the time, for them to really pinpoint it, and they are the reasons that I actually really went in to go do this work when they called me out to say, where is that missing piece?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Amy Griffin]

Remember I said, where are you? Where are you?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah. Why do you think that when people have abuse that they have such a hard time setting a boundary? It's a real common denominator.

[Amy Griffin]

I think that boundary. What does that mean? I've been learning. I'm getting better.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Oh, my God, you're so much better.

[Amy Griffin]

I think that there's always this need for the seeking approval, that you'll be found out that it's your fault. I think I can now use my adult brain, and it makes such sense. Everything I use. I always use this analogy, a puzzle piece that sometimes they snap in above my head into place. And I can easily see why this happened and this happened and this shifted. But at the time, I can now also see a child's brain. In trying to understand. I didn't have a construct for any of it. I didn't. None of it actually made sense to me. It wasn't. I didn't know the words. I didn't know parts. I didn't know more than that. The sheer manipulation that happens that you have no idea. You don't recognize it. You don't recognize the patterns. And so the other part of it that I love, I'm not always perfect at it, but I love compassion, like I'm having compassion for myself. So in these moments. And I also love when I'm quick to judge someone, if. If someone might have hurt my feelings or I think, why are they acting that way, that I try, I really do go to that place of thinking. You have Amy. You have no idea what they're going through. And. And that's, like, so true. Just overall, that people, they never know what's going on in someone's life. So when people said to me, growing up or in New York, oh, your life's so perfect. Perfect. I hate that word. Such a loaded word for so many women is, what is perfect? What are we striving for? How do we. What does perfect even mean? It's. And yet I would always look over my shoulder, who are they talking to? And to think they have no idea. There were moments, many moments that I would think they have no idea, but yet I still wasn't going to go there with myself.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

So interesting. I mean, I. It's something that I think about a lot, too. Like, where does this drive for perfection? Like, where did that come from? And, you know, of course I have my. My hypotheses for my own life around why, but I feel like it was also so, like that. I don't know, society. Like, it's like everybody's conspiring to get us to think that we're not enough, you know, like, we're not good enough. And we come in, we're already broken, and people break us more. And then it's like the antidote to that is like, I've got to be perfect and I've got to do. You know, And I never. Like, in my case, I never even. It was never even comparing myself to anybody else. It was just to myself, you know, I was always thinking that I was not good enough.

[Amy Griffin]

But now, can't you say. I think that you can say, coming from inside yourself, like, I show up now in rooms, and I think, I am so lucky. I'm so blessed to be in this room. I know I'm so blessed to be in this room, but I'm so blessed to be that I know who I am. So I don't even care that other people that I'm in this room, I just show up as myself. And I think, you know, from the things this, I have this profound gratitude that when I can show up in these rooms, and I think, you know, I am just so grateful that I'm here, that I survived this. Yes. That. That child that. The Amy that was back then, that thought, there's no way out with this, that I'm here, like, just alone being here and having survived it, there's so much gratitude and joy. So it starts, like, so simply. So when, you know, it can be as simple as just like having an incredible cup of coffee in the morning. Where I think I'm so grateful that I'm here with myself. But, yeah, that whole drive for perfection, it's hard.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah, it is hard. And it. It's quite punishing, you know, and it's something that. I don't know. I really am. I've really worked very hard on trying to undo a lot of that programming and just to. To be with myself and to accept all the parts of myself too, you know, like all the things that I don't like about myself and try to make friends with all those parts of myself too, you know, that.

[Amy Griffin]

The permission and the compassion and the trust and those things that you work to build and in all your relationships. And then you think. But I never really took the time to build that with myself and to give myself permission to give my. And then once you start doing that, you build that muscle. It seems like it's a muscle, don't you think?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I do. And I think it's. It's work. I mean, and it's like the fundamental truth and the way through life is to accept all those parts of yourself. Right. But it is. It is work because I think we're. I don't know there. It's hard to sometimes live with those things about yourself that are the harder. That are the harder things. And I don't know, especially when, you know, sometimes I think about, you know, something that I did want to, and if this is too personal, you don't have to. But I think, like, it's such an interesting area that people don't talk about still that much. You know, I think we're getting to a point in society where, you know, as women, we're holding hands and talking about a lot, right? We're talking about perimenopause and menopause, and we're talking about, you know, there's so many areas. There's so many. There's so many, I think, taboos that were kind of in. In our sisterhood saying, like, we're going to talk about this and help each other through that, like, and we've talked about this together, but, you know, I think it would be really helpful to understand how does this impact adult sexuality?

[Amy Griffin]

Well, speaking of the stigma piece, one way that I was looking at it and I was thinking about sounds crazy. I woke up, like, the day or two after Cecile Richards passed away, and I don't think of myself as a woo woo person, but I'm a woo woo person.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

You totally am.

[Amy Griffin]

A total woo person.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Totally.

[Amy Griffin]

And I am a very. I'm a Very like person. And I w. I woke up. I was in a dream. I woke up and. And I kind of heard her saying after she passed, and I've been reading everything about her life, and. And she said, amy, go tell the story. There's so much more to do. And she. And it just kept. I was like, okay, fine, I'm going to write it down. Amy, go tell this story. There's so much more to do. And it's kind of in line with what I do in business and in the companies that I support and the founders I support, and how I've found myself in various sectors, like you said, talking about menopause and women's health and places where women were left out of the conversation in sports and media and in other areas. But one of them was this little moment when I remembered that with breast cancer, if you remember, the way I understood the breast cancer symbol was sort of formed because you. Do you remember when people did say someone has breast cancer, you could see the symbol, but you can't say breast cancer.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Amy Griffin]

Like, we didn't talk about breast cancer. No, because it was the word breast.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I know.

[Amy Griffin]

So that's when I think about making progress and how far we've come, and then I think about Cecile Richards. And I was just thinking about that in terms of sexual health. You know, I just can only go to the relationship I've had with my husband where there was, again, this very secure attachment. And I've said to him, why did you never say anything to me when you noticed certain things that were happening in our life? And I. There was an instance where I was in the yoga room, I was doing yoga, and he was being funny, and he. I write about this and he tied my hands to the yoga strap or something. And I said, I lost it. Yeah, I lost it. And I ran out of the house, and he kindly followed me out and said, do you want to talk about that? And I said, nope. And that was. That was a tell. Yeah, that was a tell. And I tucked it back in my brain. But I. So I think about that in terms of my sexuality around when I was ready, after so much of that connectedness with John and my relationship with him, that I think that was part of how I was able to. To tell. Right. And it's something I enjoy working on with him.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah. Yeah. You feel like.

[Amy Griffin]

I feel safe.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Amy Griffin]

And.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And so you. You can heal that part.

[Amy Griffin]

Well, I guess isn't sexuality. It's about you with you with someone.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Else and then with someone else or.

[Amy Griffin]

Alone or whatever, whatever. I think I'll get there to that. The Texas part of me talk about that. Sorry, John, but that connection of. Isn't sexuality and sensuality and all of the differences about real connection, like just holding John's foot is sensual for me. And a connection like through the foot like that he knows me and I know him. And I think that there was so much of that for 20 years, so much connection and don't kill me, John, but I'm going to say another wonderful John thing, but he tells me every day as I'm going through this, because this is new territory. Very, very new territory. This is not a story that I wrote a character about that I can come say this character so cool and crazy and all the things that have gone on. And this is me. This is my life. This is the innermost workings. And so he. Every day, he wrote me a note, and he says it to me every single day. You are safe and you are loved. And I spilled coffee on it, but I still have it. And it got all shriveled and I had to make sure I got to frame it so I have. You are safe and you are loved. And in a way, that sort of says everything there is to say to me about even sexuality.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

You know, I was just thinking about, like, your pain tolerance before all this, you know, like. And your hip replacements. You know that book the Body Doesn't Lie?

[Amy Griffin]

Well, I don't know if you know this, so it wasn't replaced. I'm actually proud of the fact. Whatever you had, I mean, I've had a million surgeries sewn back together and my hips have re. Sewn back on. And that was a. That was a real tell for me, too.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I was wondering.

[Amy Griffin]

It was a real tell, I think after, you know, I had one hip re. Sewn back on, shaved down the whole situation, and then seven weeks later, I went back and did the second hip. And that's why I was on crutches for almost 14 weeks. And that was from all of my athletics. And, you know, when you. I remember someone once saying to me, amy, you're going to get to a place where you can't do all of that, and you're going to have to slow down and have to pay attention to what your body's saying to you and tell you, like, the word tell. I was like, I get it, I get it. But I get it, I get it. But I didn't want to get it. But what was really interesting is that that was the first book, so it's interesting that you say that. And I'm so grateful that Bessel actually gives me a blurb for the book. Gave me a blurb for the book because that was the book that I read the first second I came out of my, of my sessions and was honest with myself because that was a real light bulb for me of oh, this, this really makes sense to me as to all the body doesn't lie. The body was trying to tell me what was trying to give me clues. And this was this idea of like really listening to yourself. But I was in many ways running from my physical sense too.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Do you have a different relationship with that now? Like, do you listen to your body more?

[Amy Griffin]

Would you like to know that I only check my aura when I know I'm really tired instead of checking it all the time to make sure I'm getting enough steps. I just check when it says you should not work out today because you're going too hard. Like I definitely in ways where I used to punish my body talking about it. I write about being in hotel gyms and low ceiling rooms of, you know, I have to get the six miles in or whatever it was was because I was, you know, punishing myself. But I think that now I'm so much softer with myself or have the moment, have stay a little longer with the friend.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

So beautiful.

[Amy Griffin]

And I think we all can do that. We can all have. And then there's that compassion again. It shows up like, that was so great. I sat a little longer. I, I, you know, what are we going to remember? All we have are our memories and our relationships when we go, that's all we have. And I don't know, I guess I hope we get to take both of those with us. Our memories and our relationships.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah, it's true actually, now that you say that, like when we first met all those years ago and you were doing three hours a day of this and that and the triathlon and all the training and do you remember that you saged me? I remember that. Oh yeah. Oh my gosh. We were working out after, after this all came out. We were working out.

[Amy Griffin]

We did, we started laughing after we cried. We did the one bucket, one foot in cold water and one foot in hot water. I started sobbing. You came over, you saged me as only Gwyneth Paltrow could do.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

That's right.

[Amy Griffin]

And then, and then we started laughing.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Gosh, I forgot about that.

[Amy Griffin]

Yeah, but that was also so caregiving of you. It was so loving. And you know, that's where in the Telling you feel so seen. You feel so seen. People can feel so seen. I just hope that for people when they, you know, I. This story, I want to make sure that I really care about. I wish I could be the repository for every single story in the world. I don't know how I was like, how can I create a repository?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

But I think, I'm sure knowing you, like, you'll have a startup next week.

[Amy Griffin]

I don't know. I don't know. Because I think there, I don't know there's enough of me to be able to do that. But I do feel that it's within everyone. Like, I hope that people see the story and see a little bit of themselves somewhere in it and then say, oh, I can tell that I can share that, you know. Yeah, I never told that thing. I'm going to go tell that thing. I'm going to go share that thing and then see where it goes. And then that person, which as you see, as I write about, they then turn around and say, oh, I have to tell you too.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah. Yeah. Our mutual friend Kate said to me once, you know, these things that are hard to say are really the only things we should be saying.

[Amy Griffin]

That is exactly how I've thought of it. It's the simplest thing. The telling is the simplest thing to do in life.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Ye.

[Amy Griffin]

But it's the hardest thing to do in life. It's like anything. Right? Like the best dress has no bells and whistles. It's just perfectly tailored. Right. But telling is super simple. But it's so hard.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah, but I think so much freedom.

[Amy Griffin]

On the other side.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I know. And that's why this book is so incredible and your, your story, like to. To be able to light the way for people and to make it, you know, you didn't have to do this. You didn't. You know, it was like when you were writing this and you were on your iPad and. And when you said, you know, I might, I might make this a book. And I was worried because I thought, oh man, is she going to put this out in the world? And what are going to be the. I just from a protective place, you know, And I thought, no, but it's so good that she's writing it and using it as a tool to really process through it all. And then out of this came the most exquisite, beautifully written book. I mean, I'm so proud of you and what you were able to do. And not only because the work in and of itself is exceptional, but because you light the way, you give you're giving anyone who reads this permission to tell their story. As difficult as it might be, as shattering as it might be for the people around them in their lives, you know, it's. It's an incredible feat that you've been able to. To do, and it's deeply, deeply healing, not only for you, but for anybody who has a story to tell who hasn't told it yet.

[Amy Griffin]

I'm so. Thank you for saying that. I'm so grateful. And I look back, I'm a process person, as you know. I love looking back. There's so much gratitude I feel in the word, in the processing. Like the process of all of this is what really has transformed my life. And I think about the day when, as I. You knew I'd been writing. And then, you know, I had this. Someone said to me, amy, I got a call and someone said, amy, we'd like for you to write a book about women in business. And I said, I'm not qualified. There's someone. There's other women that are more qualified.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

To write who you are. By the way, how many public boards are you on? You're on the board of the Met. You're on the board of Spanx Bumble. I mean, but I really felt.

[Amy Griffin]

I felt what was interesting in that moment was as she asked me, and I was. I said, there's so many women that are more qualified to write a book about women in business. But what's really interesting was that's where I literally flipped a switch and recognized, oh, but I have. I have something that's more important coming from me. I know this was one of the moments of the tells when I knew, I'm here. I know why I'm here. And I knew that this moment to give this book to the world was why I'm here and what I've been through. To then share it was far more important than anything that could happen at that moment in time. And. And I realized this in the processing that when I literally sent the. What I'd written, I just sent it. I pushed send. And I ran in and I said, john, I just. Someone just called me and I, you know, I sent them what I've been writing. And he said, what do you mean you sent it? And I said, yeah, just push send. And he said, did you. Do you trust this person? And I said, yes, but more than anything, I trust myself.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Wow. I mean, I mean, look, it's just mic drop, drum, dropping it on the table. Oh, my gosh. Well, I mean, I had all these other questions I wanted to ask you about work and. But, you know, I just. This has been really incredible and I'm just so proud of you. Like, I. You're so inspiring just to, to be able to watch someone's journey to this degree. Like most of us in life, it's like, yeah, we're working on something. We make a little progress and we work. You know, it's like you've just come leaps and bounds and you've blossomed into the fullest imaginable version of yourself.

[Amy Griffin]

Can I make a joke? Just to, to say, to say, well, I told you I don't do anything halfway. That's a part of me that I'm not losing. I don't do something halfway. I. And that's just kind of how. When I went into process, it was like it's either all. It's. It was. It was jumping in. And I've been saying this over and over again. I was jumping off the high dive into the deepest water and there's no other way around it. And I kind of like living life that way. It's again, back to the one foot in one, you know, highs and lows of life. And that's what makes up. That's what makes up a life.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

So if you had to go back to the darkest day and in the post, you know, the Tao, just because it may help other women listening to this if they're going through something similar, like, what would you. What would you say to yourself now? If you think back to yourself, like on the. Lying on the bathroom floor in the wake of this huge revelation in the. On the darkest day, I would say.

[Amy Griffin]

Trust yourself, like at your innermost core. It may be so slow going, but a tiny little change. Just trust yourself and show up for yourself in little tiny ways. And slowly that muscle gets built and find the people in your life who can listen. I think that is. You realize you learn a lot in. I learned so much in the last few years. Who could listen? And like, when I talk to those people, you being one of them, there's a shared connectedness that you can't explain, and that comes from having gone through both. You know, you hope the people that you talk to in your lowest moments are the same people that you talk to in your highest moments. That is really beautiful friendship.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

That is so good.

[Amy Griffin]

It's true. I want to be able to come to my friends when I'm. You can't have it any other way.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

No, it's true. It's true. I find that, yeah, those people that you can't do both with. They fall by the wayside eventually as you grow up.

[Amy Griffin]

And that's okay, too. Yeah, it's totally okay.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Totally okay. Absolutely. Well, thank you so much. Thank you for being who you are to me in my life. Thank you for letting me walk beside you on this journey. I'm so incredibly proud of you and this book and I'm so excited to see what's coming next.

[Amy Griffin]

Do you remember what you said to me as I say thank you to you a million times over? I wrote it all throughout the journal. There's a million times that I go through. Thank God Gwyneth called. Thank God she called. She said, get up. We're going to have get up. I'm coming over. Get up. There was a lot of get up. But do you remember the line you said to me? I guess maybe that's not sitting in your memory, but we were outside, the sun was coming down. The sun was like on our faces. And you said, amy, you have to put your feet in the sand. To put your feet in the sand, you have to ground yourself. You're going to find yourself by doing that. And when I said earlier, what's the advice about trusting yourself and doing one little thing? Can I tell you, I was at a place where just putting my feet in the sand from your advice is what saved me. So I love you very, very much and I will always put my feet in the sand with.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I hope everybody has enjoyed listening to our kind of deeply personal conversation. I really forgot at times that there were even microphones in front of us. I cannot encourage you all enough to order and read the tell. It's available for pre order now and I found it personally life changing and I hope you do too. So thank you Amy and thank you all so much for tuning in and being a part of this space. This has been a presentation of Cadence 13 Studios. I hope you'll listen, follow, rate and review all of our episodes which are available for free on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey or wherever you get your podcasts.