Why Friendship Might Be Your Most Important Relationship

Summary

The GOOP Podcast: "Why Friendship Might Be Your Most Important Relationship"

Release Date: June 3, 2025

Introduction

In this heartfelt episode of The GOOP Podcast, hosted by Gwyneth Paltrow, listeners are introduced to two remarkable guests, Kate Manig and Leisha Haley, best known for their roles in the groundbreaking television series The L Word. The trio delves deep into the essence of friendship, the cultural impact of their work, and the profound significance of chosen family. Their new memoir, So Gay for You, serves as the centerpiece of their conversation, offering an intimate and humorous exploration of identity, love, and the beauty of enduring friendships.

Origins of a Timeless Friendship

Gwyneth Paltrow opens the discussion by reflecting on the unique structure of Kate and Leisha's memoir, appreciating its back-and-forth chapters that mirror their intertwined lives. She emphasizes the core of their story: a "beautiful friendship" that has weathered the storms of life, work, and personal growth.

“When you are pioneering anything or introducing new ideas to the culture, you get criticized,” Gwyneth remarks early in the conversation (00:03), highlighting the challenges they faced as trailblazers in both their personal and professional lives.

Kate shares the origins of their bond, recounting their first meeting during an audition for The L Word. She describes the initial curiosity and competition in a high-stakes environment, which eventually gave way to a deep and lasting friendship.

Navigating Fame and Cultural Impact

The conversation shifts to their experiences on The L Word, a show that broke barriers by providing one of the first serious portrayals of lesbian relationships on mainstream television. Leisha reflects on their initial expectations versus the show's unexpected cultural significance.

“When it aired, it was shocking because, like you said, the only references we had in media were like Martina Navratilova or Ellen,” Leisha recalls (16:44). The duo discusses how the show became a beacon of representation, helping to redefine societal perceptions of LGBTQ+ individuals.

Kate adds, “We can be sexy. We can like, sexuality. We can dress how we want to dress,” emphasizing the show's role in empowering women to embrace their identities without conforming to stereotypes (22:53).

Chosen Family and Personal Journeys

A significant portion of the episode delves into the concept of chosen family, especially within the queer community. Gwyneth underscores its importance, stating, “Chosen family... is so incredibly, vitally important” (51:57). Both Kate and Leisha share personal anecdotes about how their friendships have served as lifelines during times of isolation and societal challenges.

Leisha poignantly expresses, “It really is everything,” highlighting how chosen family can be a matter of survival for many in the LGBTQ+ community (50:09). The guests discuss the emotional and psychological benefits of having a support system where one can be their authentic self without fear of judgment.

Balancing Business and Friendship

As their relationship extends beyond personal boundaries into professional endeavors, Gwyneth, Kate, and Leisha explore the dynamics of merging business with deep-rooted friendships. They candidly discuss the challenges and rewards of collaborating on creative projects while maintaining the integrity of their personal bond.

“We have to find where does the business stop and the friendship begin,” Gwyneth notes (38:33), illustrating the delicate balance they strive to maintain. Leisha adds, “We've been really good at communicating through those hard times,” emphasizing the role of open dialogue in sustaining their relationship (37:34).

Reflections and Hopes for the Future

Towards the end of the episode, the trio reflects on their journey and shares hopes for their memoir. Leisha expresses her desire for readers to see themselves in their stories, fostering a sense of connection and reassurance that enduring friendships can help navigate life's complexities.

“I want someone to see themselves in us and know that we're really going to be okay in the end,” Leisha shares (54:25). Kate echoes this sentiment, emphasizing the relatability found in their shared vulnerabilities and triumphs.

Gwyneth concludes with optimism about the book’s release, stating, “The timing is everything, really,” underscoring the book's relevance in the current cultural landscape (53:41).

Conclusion

This episode of The GOOP Podcast offers a profound exploration of friendship’s pivotal role in personal growth and cultural change. Through candid conversations and heartfelt anecdotes, Gwyneth Paltrow, Kate Manig, and Leisha Haley illuminate the transformative power of enduring relationships and the importance of chosen family in fostering authenticity and resilience. So Gay for You promises to be a resonant addition to their legacy, inspiring listeners to cherish and cultivate their most meaningful connections.

Notable Quotes

• Gwyneth Paltrow on pioneering new ideas: “When you are pioneering anything or introducing new ideas to the culture, you get criticized.” (00:03)
• Leisha Haley on the unexpected impact of the show: “When it aired, it was shocking because... the only references we had in media were like Martina Navratilova or Ellen.” (16:44)
• Kate Manig on empowerment through the show: “We can dress how we want to dress.” (22:53)
• Leisha Haley on the importance of chosen family: “It really is everything.” (50:09)
• Gwyneth Paltrow on balancing business and friendship: “We have to find where does the business stop and the friendship begin.” (38:33)
• Leisha Haley on the book’s purpose: “I want someone to see themselves in us and know that we're really going to be okay in the end.” (54:25)
• Gwyneth Paltrow on the book's relevance: “The timing is everything, really.” (53:41)

Timestamp Guide

• 00:03: Introduction of guests and the core theme of friendship.
• 16:44: Discussion on the cultural impact of The L Word.
• 22:53: Empowerment through representation in the show.
• 50:09: Importance of chosen family in the queer community.
• 38:33: Balancing business ventures with personal friendships.
• 54:25: Hopes and intentions for the memoir So Gay for You.
• 53:41: Relevance and timing of the book’s release.

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Note: Advertisements and promotional segments interspersed within the transcript have been excluded to maintain focus on the substantive content of the conversation.

Transcript

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

When you are pioneering anything or introducing.

[Kate Manig]

New ideas to the culture, you get criticized. You do? Yeah. Did you hear about that?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I didn't find the one. I found someone I respected and we made it the one.

[Leisha Haley]

In the sort of longing kind of.

[Kate Manig]

View of love, people understand each other as if by magic.

[Leisha Haley]

Nothing in itself is addictive on the one hand. On the other hand, everything could be addictive. If there is, there's an emptiness in.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

That person that needs to be filled.

[Kate Manig]

I now know that nobody changes until they change their energy. And when you change your energy, you change your life. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow. This is the GOOP Podcast, bringing together thought leaders, culture changers, creatives, founders and CEOs, scientists, doctors, healers and seekers here to start conversations. Because simply asking questions and listening has the power to change the way we see the world. Here we go. Welcome to the GOOP Podcast. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow, and today I'm joined by two incredible women. You may know them from the L word, Kate Manik and Leisha Haley. Kate is my first cousin, by the way. Off screen, they've built a deep, decades long friendship, one that has carried them through life, work, love, and everything in between. They have a new memoir, so gay for you, and it's an intimate and hilarious take on identity, chosen family, and the beauty of growing into who you are with the people who really see you. We talked about how their bond has evolved, the cultural impact of the L word then and now, and how they've stayed connected through it all. Let's get into it. I'm really excited to jump into this here because it's a beautiful book and I love the construct. I love how you kind of went back and forth chapters, you know, you, you cut, you take turns, which is, is really a refreshing way to kind of do a memoir, right? Two best friends, lives totally intertwined, how they're intersecting with each other. But you guys have, you know, I think, I think like what, what was at the core of the story for me was this beautiful friendship that you have with each other and how it's evolved and like this idea that, you know, friendship, like real friendship, where there's not like fear of being intimate with someone, like, and, and being honest with someone. It's so enduring and in a way, like, you know, like, I think about the long friendships in my life and how they're kind of like these big anchorings, you know, and like, almost let me express who I am in other ways. So were you guys. Tell us A little bit about, like, the evolution of the friendship. I mean, you. You talk about meeting in the audition. It's such a great story and I don't want to, you know, ruin it for people. But, like, what did you guys have a kind of. Was there this moment where you were like, immediately, this is my best friend, or did it really unfold over time after the audition, after you both got the parts and everything in the L word?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I. Well, we're both natural. I think we're both cats in a way. We kind of sniff things out at first before we. Before we leap in. Wouldn't you agree?

[Leisha Haley]

Yeah, I like that. Yeah.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

But. But if I'm going to use that analogy, I think our instincts was immediate curiosity, but we were in this place of competition and as, you know, like a very unnatural, uncomfortable environment with a. Of high stakes. And so you don't really like, center yourself and live in your being.

[Leisha Haley]

Yeah, I never plan. I never thought I'd get that part. So the whole thing was a weird fluke to me that I was even in that room and sitting next to.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

You and I was getting turned down for jobs left and right. So I thought I got flown out here for nothing, so I'll just go home and not.

[Kate Manig]

Why, why, why were you getting turned down for jobs? It just hadn't been your thing yet.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

No, I was just in the grind. I was in the. I was in the zone of just, you know, put doing my time and. And I had come up to a lot of no's and I figured, know.

[Kate Manig]

Yeah.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

So I didn't have high expectations for.

[Leisha Haley]

This, but yeah, we both had intrigue. Like, remember what Kate looked like at 24? It was like compared to today.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

No, thank you.

[Leisha Haley]

Wait, it was like a jaw. She's like jaw dropping, gorgeous creature. Right? Just. I mean, really, you know what I'm talking about.

[Kate Manig]

Oh, yeah.

[Leisha Haley]

And like jaggery and like androgynous and there weren't a lot of people like you in the world. I still haven't met one, but I just was like, I wish I could know her and I probably won't because it's me or her. Like, it's right. I'll never see her again. So when we saw each other again after I got a different part, that's when I think we were both like, oh my God.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yay. Yeah. And then I got the job. I couldn't believe it. It actually worked in my favor for once. And my first thought was, is that blonde girl from the yogurt commercials ever gonna. Am I Never gonna see her again. I would be really unfortunate that I don't. That that was so brief. And I thought about it the whole time I flew to Canada and I thought, I wonder if I'll ever see her again. And what do you know, she was the first face I saw.

[Leisha Haley]

And then, you know, we have that gator thing, right? And it's like, I don't think, you know, we can kind of like seek each other out in the world.

[Kate Manig]

We.

[Leisha Haley]

It's like, you know, I don't know what it is.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Like Fight Club. It's just.

[Kate Manig]

Sure.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

You know.

[Kate Manig]

But were you. Were you thinking that, like, in a romantic way, like, I want to see her again?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Never. It never, ever, ever crossed that line. And if it did, it's incredibly unnatural. Like, it's unnatural to even consider that.

[Leisha Haley]

Oh, I hope that she's. I feel like she was one of me, you know, I mean, like, oh, I hope she's. Somehow we get.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah. Like, the curiosity and fascination wasn't at all sexual or, or intimate. It was just that, like, human curiosity of, I. This is my person.

[Leisha Haley]

And thank God we never had that. That would have been a nightmare.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

We wouldn't have had a book.

[Kate Manig]

So for anyone who is listening to this podcast, who might not know, Kate is my first cousin. She's my little cousin.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Kate Manig]

We. We grew up, well, Kate in Philadelphia and us in New York City with lots of time together. Such a great family. And did you get to know her dad, Lisha? Did you? No, it was.

[Leisha Haley]

Sadly, he passed away. Very. He passed away after.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

He passed away like a month after the show aired.

[Leisha Haley]

Yeah.

[Kate Manig]

Oh, wow. What year was that? 2004. 4. That's right. Because I was in New Orleans when I got the call that your dad died. I remember that.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And Bruce. And Bruce passed away like a year and a half earlier. It was a lot of. It was just a lot.

[Kate Manig]

We had a one, two punch there with that.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Truly, like, the two matriarchs just. Yeah.

[Kate Manig]

And. And Kate's dad, it was the most magnificent man. Like, so elegant and so warm and funny. I, He, I. I loved him so much. He was like, he. And he was such a different kind of model of masculinity for me. My dad is like. Was like a very rough, you know, New York with the accent, like, Jewish. So different. Kate's dad was like, so erudite and obviously, like, what was he, seventh generation violin maker or something like that. Some.

[Leisha Haley]

Thirteen.

[Kate Manig]

Thirteen. And always so. And then I, We. We still don't really know why I call her mom rean and everyone else calls her Mary, but I don't know either.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Not sure why she'll even sign emails. Doesn't. Whenever she writes it's always Toine. But then everyone else calls her Mary. I will never understand the origin. I'm sorry I couldn't help you.

[Kate Manig]

But we grew up, you know, part of our family is very artistic is the point. Like her father had made this incredible career out of artistry, artisanship and her mother was an amazing ballerina dancer. Lisha, did you grow up in a home where with, with artistic people all around you?

[Leisha Haley]

My parents supported the art, so my mom always wanted to be an architect. So she always had a drafting table and she was always sketching things that I didn't understand when I was younger. But she was a nurse by trade and my dad was retired Air Force, but he was like an introvert who played chess and played the guitar all day long and meditated and was like, didn't make any sense in the military. And then all their best friends were gay and like theater directors and you know, so. And I'm from a really small town in Nebraska, so they, they sort of stuck out and I was just raised in a very supportive household but where.

[Kate Manig]

The arts like were centered and yes, it wasn't weird that you wanted to pursue it to them loved it.

[Leisha Haley]

Like when I was the little weird like theater kid, they were like, yes, let's like my mom sewed all my costumes and she went all to the play rehearsal, you know, it was, they loved it. I think they enjoyed having a kind of weird little kid, I bet.

[Kate Manig]

Kate, I've never asked you, like, did you what when you told your parents that you wanted to pursue acting, I mean obviously you'd gone to the Academy of Dramatic Arts. Like they knew that you were interested. But were they, were they supportive? Were they worried? What was their feeling about it?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I believe they were like, yeah, we're not surprised. Yeah, it was like after I got through high school, I, I feel like they're like the subtextual message they sent me was, all right, you've done your time, you did the proper education and it's not for you by any means. You barely got out of line. Let's not waste any money on a four year college. Go do you. So yeah, I went to the academy and they were, they said, just keep going if this is what you want. But their whole thing was, you're not going to get instant fame. Put in your time, learn your craft, respect the craft. Like start from the ground. Up, like, earn your stripes. You're not just going to go from 0 to 100. And I thought, that's totally fine with me. I'm not looking for that anyway. So they just instilled me, like, just to respect the training of it and did, like, do.

[Kate Manig]

Do you think Blythe had an influence on. On you there?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yes. Blythe is what got me into Williamstown because I finished the academy and my father just got diagnosed with cancer. I was like, I had no. I had no place. I had no plan after I finished the academy and on TV was like, why don't you spend the summer as an apprentice in Williamstown? And I was like. I was like, absolutely. Let's go. And thanks to her, I got, like, this incredible education I wouldn't have gotten anywhere else. And I also remember seeing. I remember watching her in plays. Yeah, plays that I didn't understand and that I. Because I saw Shakespeare in the Park.

[Kate Manig]

Oh, man, she was. She did much to do about nothing with Kevin Klein.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And I played basketball with Kevin backstage when I was little. He was like, teaching me how to do a jump shot or something. And she was in a no Coward play. Blythe spirit, ironically, I believe she played the spirit of Blythe. I think that's. I saw great in that too. Yeah.

[Leisha Haley]

Yeah.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

She's just so. I remember just like watching my aunt in plays and I didn't know what that meant, but I thought she's so captivating and funny. No one realizes how funny she is.

[Kate Manig]

So funny. I always thought, like, she was the most powerful in herself when she was on stage. You know, I was. I think that's why I wanted to act because I saw her so fully realized up there and I was like, I want to be like her when she's there, you know?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah, she was just. I just remember being captivated.

[Kate Manig]

Yeah.

[Leisha Haley]

Like.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Like timing of her. Like, she had impeccable timing. Double timing. I don't think she gets enough credit for her comedy chops. I really don't.

[Kate Manig]

It's true. Sometimes I wonder, like, for Kate and I, you know, we have this framework of, you know, of artists around us and. And my mom kind of showing the way. Did you have a sense that, like, this was a. A, you know, without that framework, that this was a career that you could really pursue? Oh, I never seem, like crazy.

[Leisha Haley]

No, I just. Broadway was. The only thing I really understood was like, oh, I gotta get to a stage in New York. So I went to the Academy also, which is crazy. Just years apart.

[Kate Manig]

You didn't overlap.

[Leisha Haley]

No, no.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

We were a few years difference. But it's ironic that, that, that we.

[Leisha Haley]

Met and it's a tiny school.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Tiny school. It's not like an NYU drama school or fact that we went there and had the same references and teachers is mind blowing. But answer your question. Sorry, go ahead.

[Leisha Haley]

Yeah, but I never. The career wasn't. No, I just wanted to learn how to do it. That's really what I got for me.

[Kate Manig]

And then what was your, what were your first steps to it? I mean, because the music came first. Right. And commercials.

[Leisha Haley]

No.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yogurt.

[Leisha Haley]

It was yogurt. No, no. I met my, my friend at school. We started playing music as a hobby outside of school. And we would play like the subway system and, you know, we were busking. Yeah. And that. I pursued that for real. After I graduated acting school, I never really. I didn't know what to do. What. Same as you. Like, what do you do now? They kind of go like, okay, bye. And so I think a couple of people got headshots and I think one girl from our school got on one of those, you know, the airplane videos where they tell you how to like, be safe. Like one girl got one of those and we're like.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

So.

[Leisha Haley]

Yeah, there wasn't a real, like, career path after that. And I think that's why I fell into music. I was like, well, I know how to do this and I'll just.

[Kate Manig]

Right.

[Leisha Haley]

Feels good. Right anywhere. No one's telling you when or how or why to do it. You just do it.

[Kate Manig]

Yeah, it's so interesting. That's what I, you know, I think that was for me. Why acting? I don't know. The. The bloom fell off the rose a little bit because I felt like, you know, I didn't have agency. Whereas, you know, you're waiting to get a job. Whereas if you, you know, you can pick up your guitar, you can sing, you can go and sing and feel that beautiful inspiration coming through you in that energy. But like, if you're an actor, what are you going to do?

[Leisha Haley]

Like, one of the things I can't stand about this is like a lifestyle. It's like, why even you and I like starting all the things we started together just to have ownership and agency. Like you said, it's just, it's. It's life affirming. And you just feel like, I don't know, waiting for someone to tell you yes or no in life is a drag.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Or even just waiting for the phone to ring.

[Kate Manig]

Yeah, it is. It's. It's really, it's, you know, it's hard. I wanted to take a moment to talk about the pieces that I've been reaching for in my closet lately from our April G Label collection. At goop, we care deeply about quality and craftsmanship. The way something feels, how it moves, the subtle details. We use the most beautiful Italian fabrics. Luxurious, versatile, and made to last. This collection is full of timeless transitional pieces. Fluid skirts, a perfectly cut blazer, easy dresses you can throw on and feel instantly pulled together. They're the pieces that I have been living in and will be living in as the season shifts. You can explore the beautiful new collection along with some of our past [e-mail] G- Label use code GLABELINSIDER for 15 off your first G Label purchase. So you guys ended up on this show, the L Word, which is like this iconic, seminal show. Obviously there hadn't been, and you talk about this in the book, there hadn't been sort of lesbian role models in culture to this degree right. Until, until this show. So what did it feel to be working on it? You know, aside from, I'm sure, like on every show or movie, like, you know, there's, there's friction points and whatever. But were you aware of the kind of cultural significance that being that the show would be while you were doing it?

[Leisha Haley]

No. I thought when we went up to shoot, it was going to be like an indie sort of grungy lesbian TV show that no one was ever going to see. Like, I didn't understand what we were making. I was expecting crafts service to be on the street on a fold out table, you know what I mean? And so when it was happening, when it was, when we were filming it, we were in Vancouver, so we didn't really feel any difference. But when it aired, it was shocking because like you said, the only references we had in like media or culture was like Martina Navratilova, Ellen had come out and then been basically canceled off of television. Like anybody who risked their career to like come out was. It wasn't received very well. So this was the fact that like, mainstream culture embraced this show. I think we were all just like, our jaws were on the floor, wouldn't you say?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah, I remember the pilot thinking, this is such a unique experience because everyone seems to fit this puzzle perfectly. I don't know how these, this got aligned, but this is, this is odd. This doesn't always happen. And then feeling that it would be really unfortunate if it was just a pilot and the fact that a network, a cable network, Was like, no, we're going to take a shot with you.

[Kate Manig]

Yeah.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Was oddly affirming. But then, like Alicia said, we shot in Vancouver and then the show aired and then my dad died, so I didn't have. So suddenly all the enthusiasm just kind of went out the window and I'm just processing what grief feels like on this level. And I'm young. I was 26, so how does one think that way and no one. There's no handbook. And I didn' have anyone to talk to. And I was new to la. It was just a lot of newness. So I had this delayed realization. Alicia would call and be like, the show's doing really well. I was like, oh, is it? I was like, that's great. Let me, like, pull myself up off the floor and, like, try to see, like, see it for myself. And then slowly but surely, I think throughout the years, it was just gaining a little bit more popularity. But it was hard to gauge because we didn't have social media, so there was no update info of, like, what did people think this week? But you could feel it and you could feel it, and then you'd, like, see something in a magazine and you're like, oh, wow, that's. That's pretty neat.

[Leisha Haley]

It's hard, but I would say where we really felt it was like a gay bar. Oh, yeah. All the years we had gone to gay bars before, they were sort of dark and secret and, you know, nobody.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Nobody cared. Yeah.

[Leisha Haley]

Yeah. And all of a sudden you walk in and like, everyone had, like, long hair and they were like. It was just like.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

It was like. You can see, like, the fashion like that, like the odd fash we had was being, like, transitioned into real life. And then if we went to the.

[Kate Manig]

Gay bar, we signed autographs for three hours.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Totally. We were like puppies, like, in, like in. In the window of a pet store on, like, a big street. Like, we couldn't do it. We're like, we can't do this. And we shot in Vancouver. So, like, we. We got. We were like in our little bubble. And whoever was really successful at that time or was a paparazzi magnet, it wasn't us. Nobody gave a shit about us when we came back to LA for hiatus. So we kind of the best of both worlds where we could hide out and then see it if we wanted to see it, and then disappear those two.

[Kate Manig]

I also wonder if. Because, like, if you think about. If you think about it like, the. The television shows that really have changed cultural perception of gay men specifically are always like comedies, right. Like Will and Grace or Glee or Modern Family. And it's interesting to me that the one that kind of changed the cultural perception Lesbians is. Was a drama. Like, it was really the intricacies of your lives. Like, you know, and it was sort of desexualized in that way. Right. Like, it wasn't it Ultimately, you didn't have to be gay. Like, the joke wasn't that you're gay, and that's what makes it funny. Right. It was really about, like, it. In the same way that some of the comedies are. Right. This was, like, just a beautiful portrait of these women and their friendships, and it was, like, very real.

[Leisha Haley]

Well, it was interesting for me, just having been gay that whole time. And, like, I was. I was pretty broke and would wear, like, grungy T shirts and oversized jeans, and all my friends were broke. Like, I didn't even understand these women that we were portraying on tv. I'm like, who are these gay people? Like, I don't. This is not what.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

It's.

[Leisha Haley]

I don't know this, but I'm supposed to really. Yeah. I'm supposed to represent this person. And it really started to change me, and I realized I had, like, my own limited ideas of what my future was going to look like. I thought, okay, I understand gay. I know how to do it, and these are my options in life. And it kind of broke me wide open and showed me that, like, me along with the rest of the world, it was showing at the same time, like, no, we can be all these things. We can be well rounded, well off. You can have a group of friends. You can. You know, it just was like. It was. It was weird to be inside it and also learning at the same time.

[Kate Manig]

Yeah. Kate, I think it was. You said something in the book you talk about. It was, you know, this example of women kind of choosing to be. You know, it was like, the first sort of real, like, serious portrait of a lesbian who's, like, choosing to not have a child. Right. And to choose, like, career and interpersonal relationships and stuff. And so I wonder, like, how. How. How did that help you in terms of your, like, the cultural definition? Like, was the. Was there an empowerment that came inherently with the way that those characters were portrayed?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah, for sure. Because it had never been seen before. And there certainly seemed to be this sort of stereotype of, like, what people thought a gay woman was.

[Kate Manig]

Yeah.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And this show was like, hold that thought. We're about to blow that concept wide open. And suddenly we were. It. It just. It Was incredibly liberating because it's like, no, let's be fabulous.

[Leisha Haley]

We can be sexy.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

It can be sexy. We can like, sexuality.

[Kate Manig]

We can, you know, especially you, honey. Jesus. Jesus.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Like, we can dress how we want to dress. Like, not all of us want to, like, settle down and have kids, and we get to just live our fabulous, messy, imperfect lives.

[Leisha Haley]

And we also showed that, like, women objectify women.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Leisha Haley]

Which had never been true. That's why everyone thought that oh. Was from the male gaze. Because it's like, obviously only a male can think of women like that. We were like, no, we can think of each other like that. And I think that we got some.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Shit for that for a while where people would just, you know, write us off and say, well, a man wrote that. That's for men. And it's like, that's not actually, like, we do and it's okay.

[Kate Manig]

How did you come out to your parents? I don't even. I remember my mother telling me, and you're like.

[Leisha Haley]

You're like, was it, like, new?

[Kate Manig]

Were you like.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

You're like, yeah.

[Leisha Haley]

You're not going to believe this.

[Kate Manig]

I was. Wow.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I'm so not shocked.

[Kate Manig]

But, you know, your mom is very Catholic.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

My mom is Catholic. Yet, like, it was in the Broadway world. Like, all my adopted uncles were gay men from.

[Kate Manig]

She. So was it. I never really asked you about what that. How that went and what you said and how you felt.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Well, I think, unfortunately, it was a little conflated with my father dealing with his illness at the time and.

[Kate Manig]

Right.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

You know, I gotta give my mother some grace, because no parent wants their child to have a hard life. And I think Mary was worried initially that my life was going to be harder. And with all of the change and all of sort of, like, everything kind of up in the air. I mean, you know, you've been there. I think it just added the worry. And so it took her a minute to, like, come back down and realize that, oh, no, this is not such a bad thing. But it was an adjustment also.

[Kate Manig]

That's still that generation, I think. You know, I think it was a different time.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And then there's the generation. And I don't think the religion part of it ever played a part. She's not like some nun that locked me in an attic.

[Leisha Haley]

She's not enough.

[Kate Manig]

And she's definitely not enough. I just say. I just. I just mention it more from, like, the paradigm of, you know, it's like, sometimes we get really inculcated with these values that we grow up with. You know, and we don't even necessarily know how ingrained they are in us. What did your dad say?

[Leisha Haley]

Can I say one thing? I remember her visiting and.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yes.

[Leisha Haley]

And wanting to, like, kind of see your friends and.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yes.

[Leisha Haley]

And I remember you said she feels better about things when she walked. I remember that trip.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah. Yeah. Mary needs.

[Kate Manig]

When was this?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

She came to visit set. I think we were first season of filming, and she came up to Vancouver to visit because she hadn't met anyone, and she said, let me see what my daughter's new life is. And she got to, like, suss everybody out. And she fell in love with Leisha, naturally. And I think. And like you said, that's a really good memory. She felt better after she saw everybody and realized that everyone was there and.

[Leisha Haley]

And supporting you and nice and sweet. Yeah, it was. I think she was comforted by that visit.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Oh, I don't. I can't remember the question. You asked, what did you do?

[Kate Manig]

Your dad, what was his response?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I never got a chance to talk to. To Bill.

[Kate Manig]

Did you not?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I didn't get a chance to, but I. I said in the book at one point, I feel like he knew. And knowing how my father operated in life, it was less is always more. So I can't really see that guy coming out directly saying something, but giving me some sort of subliminal message that he's like, no, I. I caught that.

[Kate Manig]

Right. I get this is for both of you. Did you feel in your respective childhoods like there was room for that? Like, you know, I imagine in Nebraska, it's not sort of at the forefront of culture. Right. 80s.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Like, I think you had a. You had a more open and fighting.

[Kate Manig]

Environment than I did, I guess. Did you feel like you had enough examples to feel like, okay, you know, I can. When I bring this to my parents, you know, there. There will be understanding here.

[Leisha Haley]

I had a really mixed message. And because my family was so, like, again, you know, Jay and Tim would come over and they'd have their. They hold hands and kiss each other, and they were just fully themselves. And then my mom's other best friend, Maureen, would bring all her girlfriends, the rotating girlfriends through the years. But when I saw these people who are basically my aunts and uncles, like, not through blood, when I saw them out in Bellevue and in public, like, him wouldn't come to Jay's musical or they wouldn't say they were together, I realized that society was saying, we don't want to. We don't want to know about this. And. But my Parents were like, but these are who we love. So it was. I didn't know what to do. So when I realized I was gay, I didn't.

[Kate Manig]

How old were you when you realized?

[Leisha Haley]

I was pretty young. When I was having crushes on girls, I just didn't know what to call it. And then I think pretty much in high school, when I really was like, oh, I love you to my. To my friend, it was. I was like, oh, we got a problem here. I've got to figure this out. Yeah. I didn't know. I had to. I had to go discover what it was, what it meant to me. And that's why I moved to New York. Not one of the. One of the reasons. I just felt like I could be fully myself. And then I told my parents, but I still worried. I was like, are they gonna. I mean, it's. It's their daughter. Is it gonna feel different? I know they're so open, but maybe when it comes to me, they'll be like, oh, I don't know. But they were great.

[Kate Manig]

And they were accepting about it right away.

[Leisha Haley]

Yeah, right away.

[Kate Manig]

It's. It's so beautiful. Because, you know, it's funny. It's like, I think not even about sexuality, but as parents, you know, our parents, or myself as parents, like, we have these ideas about our kids, right? Like, oh, they're. We. We hope they're going to grow up and be a this or a doctor or, you know, and it's like, it's really. As a parent, like, how quickly can you let go of your projections and your expectations, right. And fully see your child for everything they are and, like, revel in that. And sometimes, especially in different generations, like, it doesn't match up perfectly, but it's so. It just must be so. I don't know. Ultimately, it's so important, I think, to be able to present your full self, like, the whole spectrum of who you are to the people who love you.

[Leisha Haley]

Exactly. And don't you think that's. I mean, we. Neither one of us have children, but I can imagine that that's probably.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I have something to tell.

[Leisha Haley]

Congratulations.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

That.

[Leisha Haley]

That's where, like, the blessing lies in your relationship with your child is the moment you let go and they fully, like, come to you with who they are. Like, that's probably where it really starts.

[Kate Manig]

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And Reen is, like, totally great with it.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Oh, Reen, I think.

[Leisha Haley]

How do you spell that?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

R, E, N, E. Rean. Loves Anna more than me.

[Kate Manig]

Is amazing. How could you not love Anna's the greatest.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Anytime I talk to her. How's Anna? Can I speak to Anna for a moment? And I said, sure, it's for you. And I just had.

[Kate Manig]

How long have you guys been married now?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

We've been together for 10, married for seven, I think. Yeah.

[Kate Manig]

Are you married?

[Leisha Haley]

I just got married last year.

[Kate Manig]

Congratulations.

[Leisha Haley]

Thank you.

[Kate Manig]

Who did he marry?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Her first girlfriend?

[Leisha Haley]

I. Yeah, my. Kim, she was my first real girlfriend in New York. And we were kidding about five years. We lived in a studio apartment. I worked at a bakery. She was. She was a waitress going to acting school. So we. We kind of start. And I was like playing music. We started our careers together and then we broke up because we just needed to go become the people we were going to become and it was too early to settle down. And then we fell back in love like 20 something years later.

[Kate Manig]

Oh my gosh. How did that happen?

[Leisha Haley]

We were both single and we started seeing each other around LA again and we went to dinner finally and we were kind of like, whatever happened to us? Yeah. I don't know.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

It's.

[Leisha Haley]

I love it so much because I know Kim knows me in a way that a lot of people don't.

[Kate Manig]

Yeah.

[Leisha Haley]

Like, usually you'd be with someone, you're like, oh, if you. If you'd know me when I was 20, or you should have seen this when I. And it's like we've been together the whole time.

[Kate Manig]

Wow, that is so cool.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

It really is the best story.

[Kate Manig]

It's so sweet. It's so romantic.

[Leisha Haley]

Yeah.

[Kate Manig]

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[Gwyneth Paltrow]

That's a valid question, first of all. Yeah, like, it's very valid because.

[Leisha Haley]

And I'm sure it's happened. It's definitely a million times it's happened.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Definitely happened.

[Kate Manig]

Yeah.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

It's very easy in a gay relationship to conflate, like, your social life with your marriage life. And. And it's very hard to create space where it's like, no, I just like to go with my differences.

[Leisha Haley]

This is where the problem really lies. Not. Not that this was your question, but this is like Kate saying this, like, where you start to go with your. With your significant other. Right? You start to go get your nails done together, and you start to go shot. You do everything.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Isn't this, like, the lesbian urge to merge?

[Leisha Haley]

Yes.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Like, that's, like, that's where that saying comes from.

[Leisha Haley]

And so you have to find. It's actually a struggle to find separation socially because you do everything together and.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

You share friends because you have the. Because it's part of your community. And that.

[Kate Manig]

Interesting.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Certainly exists. I can speak from my experience, and I'm sure you can as well, where I have a very healthy. Like Ana, for instance, knows Alicia is essentially like my second marriage. Like, Ana's very aware of that, and she has no problem with it whatsoever. And on Ana's side, her best friend is essentially her second marriage, and they can. Her and her best friend can yap away for three hours on the phone. They did it today. And she knows I won't be threatened. And so, thankfully, it's a very healthy understanding.

[Leisha Haley]

Yes.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And it's important to set those boundaries. Otherwise, that merging. You start to lose yourself, and you don't have any options. Autonomy.

[Leisha Haley]

And we also. You do have differences with your friends anyway. Like, it's not just because you're girls. You share everything. So, like, we like Di. We like tools in Home Depot, and not Home Depot, the other one. But, like, another. The devil. But we like, you know, like, boy stuff. We like trucks, and we do, like.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Motorcycles and, like, playing in the dirt.

[Leisha Haley]

We're like, kim couldn't care. She could care less about that. Stuff or Anna, like. Yeah, they're still differences with your friends.

[Kate Manig]

Totally, totally. Just like in a heterosexual couple, like I will never understand what it feels like to. Or to be a man, to think like a man. You know what I mean? So there's just such a huge chasm. And of course with two women there's so much understanding. I would think, you know, not in every case, but in most cases, like there's like an understanding of gender and perspective probably in a way that's like a little bit closer together.

[Leisha Haley]

Definitely. You guys have a built in difference. Yeah, we have to figure out.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

We have to, we have. And every relationship is different.

[Kate Manig]

Right. And, and so is that, is it important? Like, do you consciously have to find the differences in order to create that separation that you're talking about so that you don't have that merging?

[Leisha Haley]

It depends who you're with. I mean. Yeah, I think with our relationships that are very healthy, we don't really have to like sit down and be like, listen, and we have to figure this out. But, but if you're with someone who might be threatened just naturally as a person, you know, they're. I don't know, I think it's.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah, you grow, as you grow older and you go through, you know, this, it's like any human, like you learn what your boundaries are and you learn what you're never going to tolerate again.

[Kate Manig]

And.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And with that knowledge you take that into the next relationship. I'd like to think by the time I got married, I was very mindful of my back boundaries and thankfully Anna had her boundaries and we never had an issue where those cross, they crossed over and became toxic. It's been very healthy across the board.

[Kate Manig]

Have you guys ever had like a hard moment in your long friendship together?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah, yeah, Yeah, I think recent. Oh, you go. Okay.

[Leisha Haley]

I was gonna say why I think Kate and I are still so close is because we been really good at communicating like those hard, through those hard times because I think a lot of friends can skirt around stuff that like hurt where you're hurting someone or you feel hurt and no one's saying anything. And you can just let that divide like get bigger and bigger. And we've actually come to each other and said like, hey, you've. You've kind of like not been showing up for me as much as I need you to right now. Or we ask things of each other. And it's weird because these relationships can be so like almost more important at times than our, than our significant other. Right.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And.

[Leisha Haley]

But yet we don't really talk about it in our culture that it's like, I almost think going to therapy with a friend is probably healthy sometimes.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

We've talked about that before.

[Leisha Haley]

Yeah. We're like, should we go? Maybe we, you know, if we're having difficulty with something.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

But I would say also the thing with the two of us is that, like, what we were touching on earlier, like, getting really sick of waiting for the phone to ring. We just started to take more initiative and drive to create our own opportunities. So essentially we have a friendship, but we're also business partners and a few other things that just aren't right.

[Kate Manig]

You have a podcast? Do you have a book podcast?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

We have a book. There's a few other things coming down the line. And so now it's just, you know, it's been more currently a struggle that I think we're just coming out of is knowing where does the business stop and the friendship begin and vice versa. Because it's so. Because that's like really intertwining the dynamics and one thing can kind of overshadow the other.

[Leisha Haley]

Yeah.

[Kate Manig]

So it's like you share how you've been able to delineate that a bit.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah. So, well, like, perfect example. Like this week a lot's going on. So today a phone call gets made at like 8:30, and I'm like, okay, rat a tat tat, tat, tat. There's a bunch of things we have to get through.

[Leisha Haley]

It used to be like, hey, what's going on? What are you doing? What should we do this weekend?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Or.

[Leisha Haley]

And now it's like, did you get the email about the thing?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And then you respond because I responded already. And what do you think of this? And we decide that it's just like.

[Leisha Haley]

We'Re like, oh my God.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

We're like, this is deadly. So now it's a matter. Yeah, where's my friend? So now it's just a matter I think of like, okay, let's go through the boom, boom, boom, boom, boom list. But then also it's like, I'll call you back in 20 and let's have a proper chat.

[Kate Manig]

Right, Right. Do you guys, do you guys. Have you guys taken the enneagram test? This is totally random, but.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Oh, but I've heard about it. Have you?

[Kate Manig]

I. I do. And, and it's something that I use like at work as a framework. It's a really interesting personality test. It's basically one through nine. You take it online and I wonder if you're a one. Kate. But I'M a one. I'm like a hardcore one. And it's some. It's interesting to know because, like, when you're working with somebody, like, it's. You can ascribe certain friction points or ways of communication to their number. It's sort of like a way to de. Escalate, you know, because you'll. Oh, like, if Leisha is a different number, then it. Anyway, I'm digressing.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

We had really. We had Chany Nicholas on our. On our podcast about a year or two ago, and she did our. Our. Our compatible.

[Kate Manig]

Oh, that's cool. She's awesome.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

She's amazing. I love. We love her, and we're very compatible.

[Leisha Haley]

Yeah.

[Kate Manig]

You and I. Oh, okay.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

But I'll do the anagram.

[Leisha Haley]

So you think she's a one. What do you think I am? Just because later I want to see. I know you don't know me, but.

[Kate Manig]

Like, tell me what your defining characteristics are about yourself. Like, how would you describe yourself?

[Leisha Haley]

I think I'm, like, a little polite, daydreaming, flighty.

[Kate Manig]

Are you. Are you optimistic?

[Leisha Haley]

Yes.

[Kate Manig]

Okay. Are you, like, do you tend to be more of a. Of a peacemaker or, like, you're nodding? No. Yes.

[Leisha Haley]

I'm. I'm. I'm pretty even keeled, and I don't like drama, and I don't like patience so much.

[Kate Manig]

You might be a nine. I think I'm going to get a seven or a nine.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I love that. You know, this. Now, this is. I've heard of it. I just never invested.

[Kate Manig]

It's really helpful. I'm like, I'm super into it. I think it's, like, it's. It's incredibly helpful. Like, I have a. A partner in this venture fund that I have, and she's an eight. And eights are, like, really strong personalities. And sometimes I'm like, oh, my God. But then I'm like, oh, yeah, she's an eight. Like, of course she's gonna react like that. I'm not gonna get, like, Ben out of shape. You know what I mean?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

So she's like, and you're a one.

[Kate Manig]

And I'm a one. One is called a reformer. So, like, somebody who always is trying to do things better, like, oh, I could like someone who really buckles down and really strong sense of right and wrong and, like, you know, always, always, like, looking for the opportunity to make something more efficient, more interesting, more beautiful. Wait, I love your. So the book is obviously called so Gay for you. Yeah. But your shirt says say gay, which is so cute.

[Leisha Haley]

What Are you hearing like this? Because it's Franglish.

[Kate Manig]

What is that cute?

[Leisha Haley]

It's a little collab I'm doing with Claire V. And oh, my God, the best company, the coolest women. We're doing it for Gay Pride this year and it's say gay but in French. Get it?

[Kate Manig]

I get it.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Follow the sweatshirt too.

[Leisha Haley]

Thanks.

[Kate Manig]

Have you guys done product collaborations before?

[Leisha Haley]

We're just kind of honestly have on Kate. Oh, have you?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

If I have, I can't remember.

[Leisha Haley]

You've done some stuff, but I think.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

No, I really don't.

[Leisha Haley]

Like Kate and I are trying to do in the last couple of years is like, like we said, take ownership of just what we've built together and try to like, find cool ways to keep going.

[Kate Manig]

Yeah, I think too, it's. It carries on the legacy of the L Word and how it changed culture. The fact that you guys are still together. Like, right. People recognize you from the show and you're. And you're still putting all of these great creative projects into the world together. And it's. It's very cool.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I also think a lot of it, it's trust. And I. We've. And we trust each other immensely and we trust the teams of people we're working with immensely. And it's absolutely like integral for anything creative or anything to move forward. So why the formula that works and.

[Leisha Haley]

To have fun doing it and you.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Want to have fun. Like, the grind is enough in life. Like, why not have a laugh and enjoy yourself as well?

[Kate Manig]

Yeah, totally. And. And interesting that like, you know, any long partnership in business and one friendship is like woven through it. It's a feat to. To be able to continue to do what you're doing, work together, deepen the friendship. Like, it's. It's really beautiful what you guys are doing.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

There's a. There's a pride in that for sure.

[Leisha Haley]

Have you worked with friends and if you have. Have you had difficulty or have you thought, oh, I don't want to do that again or I actually like to do that more.

[Kate Manig]

I. It's interesting. I haven't worked with friends that much. I've sort of kept church and state. Like, I've like, I've start like I worked with Robert Downey Jr. And then we became very close friends. So kind of like you guys where. But we don't work together that much anymore. But like, that was. That was a really productive work relationship that became like a very important friendship to me. One of my best friend from middle school, Julia, she was my assistant for like, two years when she was like.

[Leisha Haley]

Yeah, what was that? Like, you had to tell her what. What you needed and what to do.

[Kate Manig]

It was. It was. It was weird at first, right, because, like, I was working. I was doing movies all the time. I must have been 25. And she was doing, like, some lame job in, I think, San Francisco. You know, some, like. I don't. She was really unhappy in the job. It was, like, menial and boring. And she was like, I'm not happy. And I was going to do the talented Mr. Ripley. And they were like, by the way, like, we have an assistant for you in the budget.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I was like, oh, my God, that's such a perk.

[Leisha Haley]

It's a milestone when it happens.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

It really is.

[Kate Manig]

I was like, I have made it.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah, you arrived.

[Kate Manig]

And so I was talking to Julian. She was so bummed, and I was like, I know this is crazy, but would you ever want to come and, like, be my assistant on the talented Mr. Ripley? Like, we'll go to Italy together.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Leisha Haley]

You're like, we could hang out all the time.

[Kate Manig]

And we. And she did, and we had the best time, and it was never weird. Like, you know, I think we both understood the assignment, and obviously the current of our friendship ran through and overflowed everything. But, yeah, she. If she, like. If I needed tampons, like, she was going to the Italian pharmacy and trying to, like, say tampon in Italian, you know?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Kate Manig]

But it was this. It ended up just being this amazing chapter of our lives where, like, we look back on it and then. And then, actually, we had this amazing, wonderful publicist on the set, and she was chatting to him one day, and she was like, oh, that's really interesting what you do. I never realized that was a job of, like, taking a piece of art and trying to get, you know, put the word out, and so. And she became a publicist for many years because of that experience. So it was kind of like a cool sliding doors moment where she, like, made this weird left turn and then.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Absolutely.

[Kate Manig]

I know it can be great.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

It can be great. It's just. It's just. It's. I think it's a chemistry thing, and it's completely unpredictable until you do it.

[Kate Manig]

Yeah, it is. It's. I could see, like, a world where.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

It could go horribly, horribly wrong.

[Leisha Haley]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yes, absolutely.

[Kate Manig]

You guys think you're gonna be, like, 90 years old and still sitting next to each other on the couch.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I'll be really disappointed if we. If we. If we're not.

[Leisha Haley]

No rocking chairs for Us, Probably. Yeah. I mean, don't you want to go to the end with your friends? I do.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah, I do.

[Kate Manig]

I totally do. One thing I wanted to ask you guys was, like, you were both pretty young when the L Word aired, right? How. How old were you guys?

[Leisha Haley]

I was 29. You.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I was 20 when it aired. I was 26.

[Kate Manig]

Yeah.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I was the youngest of the cast.

[Kate Manig]

And how did that impact you? Like, you know, the show obviously was such a cultural phenomenon, and so how did that. Besides the. Besides gay bars being ruined for the both of you, like, what was it. What was that like? Was it a sudden, you know, twist into fame? And how did that land with you guys?

[Leisha Haley]

Well, we. We weren't like the cast of Friends. It wasn't that kind of fame. It was sort of. It was a little niche.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

It was. It was niche, but it was also like that open secret. So you'd go into meetings and you're walking down the hallway and someone will be like, hey.

[Leisha Haley]

It was very like that.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And you're like, say it out loud. It's okay.

[Leisha Haley]

Yeah.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And you'd go into and.

[Leisha Haley]

Or even straight couples, like, in airports. That was a common one. Oh, no, we know.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

The best is, like. The best was when a guy comes up to you and they're like, can I get a picture? And you're like. And they're like, it's for my girlfriend. It was weird. It wasn't like. I don't recall it really being in your face. And I think probably a lot of that had to do with being in Canada for half the year.

[Kate Manig]

Yeah, that's true, too.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

We weren't. I don't recall us going to parties and, like, living up the Hollywood scene.

[Leisha Haley]

And none of us really did that.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I don't. I don't. I think all of us. I don't remember any of that, actually. The irony is I didn't feel famous.

[Leisha Haley]

Yeah.

[Kate Manig]

Really?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah. I never felt that way.

[Kate Manig]

Did you ever meet Sally Hirschberger?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Shane's based off Sally Hirschberg.

[Kate Manig]

I know. I'm saying. So did you ever meet her? Like, did you ever.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Sally cut my hair from my first job three years earlier for a WB series. So that's where I met Sally. And then it turns out three years later, I'm playing a fictionalized inspiration of Sally. So full circle there.

[Kate Manig]

That's so funny. Your character based on anyone that you know of?

[Leisha Haley]

Yeah, my friend Ali Adler. Who. Who?

[Kate Manig]

No way.

[Leisha Haley]

Oh, Ali.

[Kate Manig]

Yes.

[Leisha Haley]

You know Ali.

[Kate Manig]

I know Ally. Ally. My husband.

[Leisha Haley]

That's right. Yes. Based on her.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Ally's gonna be very happy. Her name is in this podcast.

[Leisha Haley]

She's gonna be very happy.

[Kate Manig]

Very. So you guys obviously have chosen each other's family and I think, you know, have ch. Like aggregated a group of people out in LA that are family. Right. Like chosen family. Right. Do you, do you think that matters now more than ever?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Absolutely.

[Leisha Haley]

I think it's everything.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I think it's everything. I think it's, it's been everything from the very beginning, actually. It's, it's, it's a. It's a. For. For some, it's, you know, a chance for survival.

[Leisha Haley]

Yeah. I think in the queer community, like, chosen family, and I know people say it a lot now, but it really is. Can be like a life or death thing for, for people in our community. And I. It's, it's just so important to find that support system because not everyone has a great family life or, you know, an upbringing or a safe place to go. And I think these friendships are more than just like your typical friend.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

It's.

[Leisha Haley]

It's someone you can, you can be your, like, full self with.

[Kate Manig]

Yeah.

[Leisha Haley]

Like you were saying the other day, like, how you feel in society, like you kind of hide aspects or. You're always coming out.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah, you're always. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're always coming out in life. Right. Like, I just came out to a cat rescue lady the other day because we have cats under our porch and the woman was asking me a bunch of questions and I said, I. I got. Let me speak to my wife. She's out of town right now. So we're always coming out, like, in our lives. Right. And, you know, sometimes it's more uncomfortable than others and other times it's completely natural. It's, you know, it's, it's varying degrees, but, like, in this, like, little community that we build, it's like we just are. And we don't have to say anything. And it's sort of like, you know, you just. There's Sometimes it can be a, like a weight is taken off and you're like, you get it. I know that you get it. And there's just a relief in that.

[Kate Manig]

Yeah, there's like, being able to be, you know, seen as your full self. It's like it makes your nervous system calm all the way down.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yes, precisely that. And that's where, like, chosen family in, In. In this community is so incredibly, vitally important.

[Kate Manig]

Yeah. Yeah. Do you feel like. Does it feel like a particularly hard time? Like, is it.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yes.

[Kate Manig]

You know, I've been Asking my gay friends this a lot because it feels like there was so much progression made culturally. And now I just wonder, like, what it. What it feels like in this moment.

[Leisha Haley]

It feels like one step forward, 10 steps back every time. And. And I think that's those gut punches, like, with chosen family. That's when you just. Like Kate was saying, you just feel like you get it.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Leisha Haley]

It's so hard. It's isolating. It's this terrifying.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And right now it feels like you're just kind of like you're waiting for, like, the gauntlet to drop because, you know, it's just a matter of time. Like.

[Leisha Haley]

And you feel. You sort of feel hated in a.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yes.

[Leisha Haley]

Very shadowy way. You're like, we're just not light or we're not accepted or.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah. And like, you. You tolerate us, but to a point, not really. And if we could, we'd tear you down and we could be. And stay tuned, because that'll happen and God only knows how long. And it's like you get that feeling and it's.

[Kate Manig]

It's.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

You just kind of like, what's next? What's coming? It's exhausting.

[Kate Manig]

What does that do to your nervous system?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

It's just a matter of trying not to borrow trouble ahead of time, but just be mindfully aware at the same time.

[Leisha Haley]

You also want to be, like, sort of not like a beacon of hope, but you want to be like, we want to step out in the world and represent gays as a positive force in the world. And so that's. You also have to pick up your own anxiety and go, no. Like, we have to be part of the change to. In order to, like, get ahead. And we will get ahead. And it slowly. It happens. And that's what I'm saying. It's like you're all. It's like a knee jerk just every time.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And we've been like. And the funny of it is we've been working on this book now for two years and two years ago that this would be coming out in June of 2025, and we're in the place that we're in now. And I think it's so much. It's even more prominent and important to get it out. And it's just timing is everything, really.

[Kate Manig]

Yeah. So to that end, what are your hopes for the book? Like, how you hope it lands. Like, what you've written it. It's funny and it's brilliant and sweet, and, like, you end up feeling like you get to know you guys in such a beautiful way. But if you had to say what the thesis of the book is and. And how. And how you hope it's, you know, it lands for people, what would you say?

[Leisha Haley]

I think for me, it's. I want someone to see themselves in us and know that we're really going to be okay in the end. Because we do. We do find our people in life. And I know everyone will. Person or. Or group of people, and that we're all pretty much the same.

[Kate Manig]

Yeah.

[Leisha Haley]

Right. Like, we're. Kate and I are at that stage special, and I. That was actually when I was writing stories about myself. I'm like, who cares is what I'm. But. But maybe the. Who cares? Or the. The minutia of my life or the little stories that happen along the way will kind of make someone feel better because they might look at us like, oh, they have everything. Or they. And it's like, no, we actually don't. We didn't. And we.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah, it's like the little. Yeah. Like the small flaws are probably going.

[Leisha Haley]

To be the most relatable or.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Leisha Haley]

Is that what you're gonna say?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I don't know. You answered that very well, so I'm not gonna add to it.

[Kate Manig]

Oh, my God, we're out of time. That went so quickly.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Thank you very much.

[Leisha Haley]

Yeah, thanks for having us on, guys.

[Kate Manig]

Thanks for coming on the Goop podcast. I love seeing you both, and you are both fantastic. I think this book is gonna resonate with so many people.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Thank you very much for the support. Thanks, Goop.

[Kate Manig]

I've always felt that the relationships we choose, our friendships, our chosen family, can be some of the most profound connections we have. Talking to Kate and Leisha was a beautiful reminder of what it feels like to be truly known by someone who's been with you through it all. I can relate with my best friends. I'm so grateful to. To them for sharing their beautiful story and for reminding us that real connection is one of the greatest gifts we have. Thanks for listening to the GOOP Podcast. See you next week. Thanks for tuning in. This has been a presentation of Cadence 13 Studios. I hope you'll listen, follow, rate and review all of our episodes, which are available for free on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts.