← The Grand Tourist with Dan Rubinstein
The Grand Tourist with Dan Rubinstein
A Family Affair: Sophie Ashby and Charlie Casely-Hayford
00:57:57
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- [00:00]
Sophie Ashby
Quite often within the creative industries, there's this facade that we're all smashing it. And what I respect and love in terms of the relationship I have with my wife is that we can have those exchanges. We kind of pull one another up because, you know, it is challenging at times. And I think because we live and breathe it, it doesn't feel like work. I know a lot of couples who just actively choose not to talk about work as soon as they get home. That's just not the case for us, is it?
- [00:26]
Dan Rubenstein
Hi, I'm Dan Rubenstein and this is the Grand Tourist. I've been a design journalist for more than 20 years and this is my personalized guided tour through the worlds of fashion, art, architecture, food and travel. All the elements of a well lived life in the design world. We're quite accustomed to dynamic power couples who work together, many of whom have been on this very podcast. But sometimes these couples don't even work together at all. But that doesn't mean one's creativity doesn't impact the other. My guests today are, as we say in the States, like a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. Two great tastes. Tastes that taste great together. London's Sophie Ashby and Charlie Caseley Hayford Sophie was raised between the UK and South Africa and studied in London and New York before starting her very own design practice, Studio Ashby. Through the firm's delightfully colorful, warm and inventive interiors, she's quickly made headway into the world of interior design. Last year she debuted her first monograph with Rizzoli with a forward by Amy Astley, the head of Architectural Digest. She also recently launched Sister, her own brand of furniture, lighting and accessories. Charlie, on the other hand, is a dashing rogue in the world of fashion and British tailoring. He launched his own menswear brand at a young age, along with his late father, the noted designer Joe Casey Hayford OBD. He also comes from a long line of UK trailblazers, which we'll get into his company's elegantly restrained menswear is something that perhaps 007 would wear on a first date or a three Michelin starred restaurant. He's dressed names like John Legend, David Beckham and Benedict Cumberbatch, and recently the former editor of British Vogue, Edward Ennoffel. For this year's Met gala, which of course had the theme of black dandyism, I caught up with Sophie and Charlie from London to chat about their unique pasts. How the two met Sophie's nonprofit that spurs needed change in the design industry, how men are dressing in this new post, pandemic age. What's next for their dynamic careers and more? Sophie, you grew up, I think, between South Africa and the uk. I was wondering if you could describe your childhood home. Like, was it a creative one?
- [02:40]
Charlie Caseley Hayford
It was a creative one. There were quite a few of them, which is how I came to be a designer, I think, because I just became very interested in. In really homes and the power they hold in making you feel comfortable and safe and. Yeah. At home in a new place. Yeah. So South Africa and the uk. We moved around quite a lot within the uk. So there was a stint in London and then there was a stint in South Africa, and then there was a stint in Devon in the southwest. And now my parents are in Portugal as of the last kind of 15 years.
- [03:18]
Dan Rubenstein
So what kept your family moving around?
- [03:20]
Charlie Caseley Hayford
My mum is South African, and I think much of it was this kind of quest for a life in nature and a life outdoors. And we got off to a good start. When we moved to South Africa and Devon, we lived in a very rural part, and it was very beautiful. And now in Portugal, they spend their life outside and living in a very rural area. So she was just, I think, after that for a long time. And they liked moving and doing up houses, and there was a sort of series of logical reasons that they have to justify all the moving, but it wasn't. It wasn't like my dad was in the army or anything.
- [04:01]
Dan Rubenstein
Okay, that's what I was gonna ask. Yeah, I was gonna ask, but, like. And as a kid, like, what did you. What was your preoccupation like? What were you like as a kid?
- [04:09]
Charlie Caseley Hayford
I was the arty kid, so my sister was the sporty kid and I was the arty. And I was sort of gentle and calm and the elder of the two of us at home and I think maybe quite sensible, but very creative and loved being outside and. Yeah, had a wonderful childhood.
- [04:32]
Dan Rubenstein
And, Charlie, tell me a little bit about yourself and sort of like, where you grew up, because, you know, your family has such a rich history in the uk and for those listening, maybe there are in the us, like, may not have any idea, like, tell me a little bit before we talk about your own personal history. Tell me a little about your family history.
- [04:51]
Sophie Ashby
Sure. So, well, firstly, we are a family business and kind of family is everything for us. So until my father passed away around five years ago. Now I work with both my mum and my dad my entire adult career, which has been incredible and challenging, as you can imagine. But, yep, I guess in terms of My family history, I mean, where to begin, really? It's always a bit odd reflecting on one's family history, I think, because I'm very conscious not to kind of put everyone on a pedestal, because I think it has. I think my sister and I were always concerned it would put a lot of pressure on us in terms of achievements and what we need to do as a next generation. My great grandfather, who was called J Caseley Hayford, was not only kind of a remarkable lawyer and politician, but he was also a writer. He wrote a novel called Ethiopia Unbound, which is one of the first works of fiction to be written in English by an African. And it's actually still incredibly relevant today in terms of its topics of, you know, identity, race, self determination. And then his missus, Adelaide, was kind of champion, championing women's education in Ghana long before it was, I guess, even a conversation in most parts of the world. We actually got a book in the store called An African Victorian Feminist, which is all about Adelaide, and it's just quite a strong title and definitely catches the attention of most of our clients when they pass through.
- [06:45]
Dan Rubenstein
And then what about you? And, like, growing up yourself, like, where. Where in the UK did you grow up in?
- [06:49]
Sophie Ashby
So I had quite a different childhood to Sophie, and we kind of joke about it quite a bit because I grew up in London, born and bred, grew up in East London in an area called Hackney, and I was very privileged and I had a really cultural upbringing. My parents, they were just adamant from day one that they would take my sister and I wherever they were going to go. So, actually, much like yours, Sophie, we went to a lot of art galleries in our childhood, but my dad was very, very into music and a real kind of spectrum of live music, so my sister and I would partake in that. And my mum was into the ballet, so we were going to, like, you know, it was a real mix and it was high and low. It wasn't just high, which we loved. And I didn't really realize that at the time, I think, but it's very much shaped my way of thinking today. So my parents are just very influential on almost every aspect of my life, really.
- [07:57]
Dan Rubenstein
And as a couple, I mean, you just said that you kind of joke about how you guys sort of grew up in a different household. Sophia, what's something that goes on in the everyday that kind of goes, oh, wow, that accentuates that or highlights that?
- [08:12]
Charlie Caseley Hayford
I think it's usually when we are talking about a future or maybe a dream version of a future of where we might live or how we might live or how we might fantasize about splitting our time between one place or another. I mean, for me, I feel a real urge and pull to nature and the countryside thanks to my childhood and the places that I've been lucky enough to grow up in. And I do find living in London full time, as it were, really hard.
- [08:48]
Dan Rubenstein
You weren't a city kid and so.
- [08:49]
Charlie Caseley Hayford
It'S still kind of overwhelming. Exactly. And you know, I love London so much and I only have to go to any other city in the world and feel, you know, infinitely more grateful that London is where I get to live and call home. And I wouldn't change it, but I do feel deprived a bit of nature and trees and, you know, find myself in our local parks quite a lot. And it's not quite the same. So whereas Charlie's never had that experience and I don't think kind of relates to that, that longing for a good walk in the countryside or actually most of the time I just fantasize about looking at, at a large body of water. Don't mind what it is, I just want to look at water. And I think it's probably a bit of an antidote to stress and overwhelm that I might be, might be feeling I need. But yeah, I think Charlie's very open minded and will entertain these concepts with me. But I think there's a fear I have that I might be carrying the whole experience on behalf of all of us if I drag us to the deepest, darkest countryside somewhere. Come on now, everyone put on your boots and let's go out. I know it's raining, but it's still a bracing walk in the hills. So yeah, it's different.
- [10:11]
Dan Rubenstein
And Sophie, you studied art history in the UK before you're going to Parsons in New York for design. What makes you take that leap and to study design and, and to do it in New York of all places.
- [10:23]
Charlie Caseley Hayford
I was thinking about this and I think at the time New York was sort of regarded, at least in my little world, as the center of the universe. You know, London was this place that I already knew and was familiar enough with. But the concept of going to New York to study and all of the TV sitcoms and series of that time and they're so kind of New York centric. It just felt like if you want to have a meaningful career and you want to begin and be immersed in the best place and city in the world to do that, then New York is the one. And so for a 17 year old that was kind of as simple as it was. I think I just started becoming so interested in the idea of interiors and how a room or a home or a house or whatever has this power to make you feel a certain way, whether it's kind of good or bad. And it can really enhance your life and enhance the lives of the people who get to live there. So history of art was wonderful as my degree, and I'm so in love with art and it's such a big part of my practice and what I do. And I was also very creative at school and painted a lot and love drawing and things. So that was a kind of natural BA to do. But I knew that it wasn't really, you know, I didn't want to become an art historian. And I was just, yeah, fascinated by property. I think probably from moving house so much and going around with estate agents and looking at new. New houses that my parents were contemplating buying or swapping to or whatever. It's just. And interiors just seemed like this perfect blend of the things I was interested in. Property, art. Trying to get a bit closer and understand better this idea of home and how important the spaces we live in are to us.
- [12:29]
Dan Rubenstein
And, Charlie, you were studying art history at some point too, is that correct?
- [12:32]
Sophie Ashby
Yes, yes. So I studied at quite a traditional university called the Courtauld Institute in London. I actually specialized in classicism and neoclassicism. I was interested in ideals of beauty because I think at that time, that was how I framed fashion's obsession. I think I knew I was going to go into the fashion industry at that point, and so classicism felt like an interesting angle to study, to kind of prepare myself for that world.
- [13:07]
Dan Rubenstein
And how did you know fashion was going to be your thing?
- [13:09]
Sophie Ashby
It was actually St. Martin's and it was more outside the classroom than inside. I became fascinated by identity, I guess, and the power of clothing to shape perception, to empower, to. You can just do so many things. It wasn't so much the fashion element. It was more the power of clothing itself and how you can communicate who you want to be. And I began chatting to my old man about. And my mom actually about that. And, you know, we're always having these conversations about art, culture, fashion, and the correlation between them. And I think I was always quite conscious that my dad had experienced most British subcultures in his lifetime. And by the time I'd kind of reached 1819, the Internet was so prolific, it was actually very hard for a subculture to emerge in a kind of authentic and natural way. And so a lot of my experiences of subcultures and how they'd impacted fashion were informed by his personal experiences. And we would often talk about my perspective on these ideas versus his. And I think the brand just naturally emerged from those conversations. So it was kind of like a transgenerational conversation, I guess, is how I think about it.
- [14:49]
Dan Rubenstein
That's amazing. And Sophie, what was your career like before you sort of set on your own? What were your first couple of years as a designer out of school like? Was there anyone you were kind of like looking up to or really trying to, you know, pattern yourself off of because there's so many. But in the end, you have your own unique look.
- [15:09]
Charlie Caseley Hayford
Well, it was fleeting. My career between university and starting Studio Ashby. I mean, the business is 11 years old now and I started it when I was 25, so I had a couple of years, about three years working. They were really formative and I learned a lot. But in many ways I wish I had given myself longer. Now with the wisdom of knowing how hard it is to run a business, it'd be nice if I had picked up a few more pointers along the way from other people. But yeah, I worked first for this brilliant kind of traditional interior designer called Victoria Fairfax, who had such an amazing sense of color. She was extremely knowledgeable about antiques, she had exceptional taste. And I was her assistant in the sort of traditional sense of that idea. Just kind of followed her around doing whatever she needed doing, and she made the time to teach me things along the way. And then I worked at a company that no longer exists called Spring and Mercer as their, like, young interior design department. Effectively, they had a few different things going on and we were doing show apartments for developers and I came in to do that and I loved it. But in terms of who I was looking up to, I think I had my design heroes, people like Jacques Grange and on the one hand, and then, you know, people like John Porson on the other hand. But it wasn't really. Well, it wasn't the age of Instagram and social media and so there wasn't the same celebrity in a way. I think you got your references and you learned about people from reading the magazines, which I devoured. But I didn't kind of hero worship anyone. I was just fascinated to see these images. I just collected images from magazines of other people, other designers works, and was often drawn to the. The more old world, eclectic layered homes of. Of amazing collectors and. And yeah, Jacques Grange kind of featured quite heavily, for example. But I think that's all changed now. I think people do have idols in a way. And in my own industry, it feels like designers are thought of in a different way these days and also TV programs and that kind of thing. But it was. It was simpler, basically, then.
- [17:53]
Dan Rubenstein
And, Charlie, why don't you tell us the story of how you guys met from your perspective.
- [18:01]
Sophie Ashby
We actually met on a blind date. So we were set up by a mutual friend, and Sophie put in a very straightforward request that she was looking for someone tall.
- [18:14]
Charlie Caseley Hayford
And that was the end of the list.
- [18:17]
Sophie Ashby
That was it. That was it. Set the bar lower.
- [18:19]
Dan Rubenstein
Are you tall?
- [18:20]
Sophie Ashby
I'm sorry, six.
- [18:22]
Dan Rubenstein
Oh, okay.
- [18:22]
Sophie Ashby
So I excelled in the.
- [18:25]
Dan Rubenstein
Okay, well, you won.
- [18:26]
Sophie Ashby
Single criteria that Sophie had requested. And yeah, yeah, our friend was like, oh, no, just the guy. And that was it. We hit it off, like, straight away.
- [18:39]
Dan Rubenstein
And Sophie, what did you think of Charlie when you first met him, other than the fact that he's extremely tall?
- [18:44]
Charlie Caseley Hayford
Yeah. Well, I was thrilled with the height, obviously. And the hair adds another inch, so we were really winning. I thought I actually got the giggles and had to hide behind a pillar and regain my composure because he was so gorgeous that I completely, like, blushed and needed to pull myself together before walking up to him. And then I pretended I wasn't sure if he was the man that I was looking for, knowing full well that he was. And, yeah, I famously got about 10 minutes walking around the corner before I thought to myself, oh, my God, I think I'm in love with this guy. This is the one.
- [19:24]
Dan Rubenstein
Where was the first date?
- [19:27]
Charlie Caseley Hayford
We met outside a theater in the West End as a meeting spot. And then we went to a wine bar on south bank and it was a Sunday night. I'm not really sure why we met on a Sunday night, but we ended up in this, the one and only restaurant in Soho that's open every night, all night, having a very late dinner and, yeah, just didn't want to go home.
- [19:54]
Dan Rubenstein
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- [21:33]
Charlie Caseley Hayford
I think people are coming to us because they enjoy color and they want something that feels real and soulful and layered and eclectic and they have or they share my belief that art is a very important part of a successful interior and they want to kind of focus on that and they're interested in learning more about that process. Yeah. And I think also that they want to work with someone in a collaborative way who's going to listen and there's a dialogue. I'm not an evil dictator. I do plan to be a dictator in the later years of my life and boss everybody around and just do it my way or the highway. But for now we're trying a different approach which is a lot, lot more, yeah. Collaborative and, and I really just feel like at the end of the day I am not saving anyone's life interior design. And it's an absolute joy to, to, to do as a job, but it's also real privilege to have someone design your home. And so I just feel like the whole experience as best we can make it, should be enjoyable for both parties.
- [22:46]
Dan Rubenstein
And do you consider your firm's sort of aesthetic and your sort of interior aesthetic is like uniquely English or uniquely British? Because to me it seems like as an American, it seems like when I look at it, it seems so characteristically British in the fact that it is like comfortable and warm and colorful with pattern things that don't necessarily, you would expect to go together but really do. And there's a sense of the handcraftedness in there, but also a sense of, you know, a Kind of austere craftsmanship. You know, nothing is too frou frou, as we might say, but there is that kind of unique blend that seems super English. But does that. Does that. Do you see that in your own work?
- [23:30]
Charlie Caseley Hayford
I do. I think it's there, but I also think there's a sort of freshness and lightness to things, which is maybe more of a southern hemisphere pull. And, you know, the. The thing I always talk about, which is shared by many of my Australian or South African clients, for example, is just this desperate urge to open a window and let fresh air into any room that I'm in. And I think my interiors, I try to almost create that feeling in a room. I want there to be a lightness and a cleanness and a freshness, but I want there to be interest and layer and contrast as well. I don't love things to be especially feminine. Occasionally we do quite feminine rooms for clients who really want that, and I love doing that, and it's really fun. And for me, no color is off limits. I think it's utter madness to start ruling out colors and things, but I think there's a kind of masculine sense of line and simplicity, to proportion and that kind of thing. But, yeah, probably overall, there is a Britishness, but I'd like to think there's a South African twist in there somewhere.
- [24:51]
Dan Rubenstein
And, Charlie, for Casey Hayford, how do you describe the label to someone who's never heard about it before? Like, what is your elevator pitch?
- [25:01]
Sophie Ashby
Yeah, sure. So fundamentally, we are a menswear tailoring house. The tailoring world is quite small and particular and classic. And I think where we have found our niche is we generally design for guys who know themselves, feel confident enough in themselves that they don't need to wear a brand as a form of status or as a logo. It's. You know, I'd say we definitely don't design for guys who gravitate towards that. I think what we try and do is create garments for the individual that make them feel good about themselves, make them feel empowered. Every time we do a fitting in the store and someone walks out, you see them. I know it's a cliche, but people do walk differently when they feel great in. In clothing, and that's kind of our M.O. and so what we really try and do is work, work around the individual, and we get to know our clients. We help build their wardrobe and facilitate that. That. That. That feeling. It's quite different to how I. You know, I first started off doing Runway shows during London Fashion Week. And it was a very different output. Now we have a store in central London and we do a lot of kind of custom tailoring. So specifically made to measure. And it's just a wonderful experience, like getting to know people on that, you know, one to one level and being able to create a garment that reflects their, their personality. And we kind of problem solve in a way, because quite often guys come in and they don't necessarily know how to articulate what it is that they want. And if you go to a lot of tailoring houses, they just offer you their services and say, this is what we do. We're kind of the antithesis of that. All of my team are trained both on Savile Row, but also come from fashion backgrounds. So they have an understanding of styling and they have an understanding of tradition that's pretty rare within our world. And we kind of have really made that our DNA and our niche within the market.
- [27:16]
Dan Rubenstein
Do you think that there's like a signature piece or a type of signature piece that you, maybe that is, you know, what you're best known for?
- [27:24]
Sophie Ashby
Yeah, I think. I wouldn't say it's a piece, but I think in terms of our aesthetic, whilst, of course we can cut a very classic two button navy suit and, you know, that is our bread and butter. I think what people enjoy about our style is that we do try and push boundaries in a subtle way, but in a way that is understandable for most guys. So that guys who want to push their wardrobe forward that little bit further, I think they would come to us, you know, where they might be put off by a Runway brand. Our interpretations are much more subtle and at times, I would say more sophisticated than a lot of that kind of language. We do look a lot at the 1940s. It's just, I love what we call louche tailoring. So it's just a softness to the aesthetic and it's almost got a sexiness to it. And I think if guys often struggle with the word sexy, it's a word that is maybe easier for a woman to use. But whenever we say it in the store, men get all awkward and nervous. But actually, a lot of men just want to look really good. It's not always easy to execute that. And it's definitely something that we discuss a lot in house and, you know, with our clients.
- [28:42]
Dan Rubenstein
And do you have like a shop and a shop or do you.
- [28:44]
Sophie Ashby
Yeah, so we have a store on a street called Chilton street in Marylebone. We're right next door to a hotel called Chilton Firehouse. It's just like such a nice vibe on the street.
- [28:59]
Dan Rubenstein
Designed by Studio Ko, who are also a podcast guest. And there was a fire recently.
- [29:04]
Sophie Ashby
There was. There was a fire. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [29:06]
Dan Rubenstein
Did you experience any damage on your end?
- [29:09]
Sophie Ashby
I mean, have we somehow managed to elude any damage? And we actually share a wall with Firehouse just to explain how close we are. And it's going to be close for. People are saying two and a half years. So it was a huge fire.
- [29:24]
Dan Rubenstein
Yeah, yeah. That's really sad. And sort of. So if you also have some. A Sister label or sort of a product called Sister by Studio Ashby and where you're selling your own, you know, pieces that you've designed, how did that come about and tell us a little bit about that side of the business?
- [29:44]
Charlie Caseley Hayford
Yeah, so that business is five years old now. And some. Something crazy came over me five years ago in Covid during lockdown in our house. I was pregnant with our first daughter and felt clearly invincible and so decided to set up Sister and also a charity called United in Design all at the same time. So it was a busy year. And yeah, Sister is a retail shoppable version of our world. So we have our own furniture, rugs, fabrics and lighting. We sell artworks as well and objects. And it's just a lot of fun, really. It's something I've long dreamt of doing and I think it's often a logical step for an interior designer to. To add on that string to their bow. And it's something I was always so drawn to. I love shopping. I love stuff. I love nothing more than the pleasure of walking around a beautifully curated, beautifully designed store that smells delightful, has perfect music playing and you're served a coffee and a biscuit in the most exquisite cup and perfect plate. And you know, the whole, the whole desire to kind of control and design every element of a space in an interior, for me it goes far beyond just the furniture and the pieces. So the shop, which we, well, showroom that we have here in London in St James's park for Sister is just an opportunity for me to kind of play and create in a way that is quite freeing and separate to our projects. It will be of no surprise to anyone or anyone in my industry to hear that working on complex, long term, large scale interiors projects is complicated and requires real skill and time. And we enjoy that very much at Studio Ashby. And it's what I've always wanted to do, but I think sometimes I was just craving that feeling that I had at school of being in the art block and painting and making things and thinking, using my brain in a different way. And it's just been. It's been such fun to do that. And for the first few years, it was fun, but also slightly in the midst of new motherhood and all sorts of things quite quickly started to feel like a bit of an insane idea. And I was wondering what on earth I was thinking. But five years in with an incredible team who really believe in it and some real momentum behind some successful pieces and products, it's really taking off and I just love it. I wish I had more time to spend doing things with Sister.
- [32:55]
Dan Rubenstein
And what would you say is your most successful piece? It's Sister.
- [32:59]
Charlie Caseley Hayford
Yeah, I think it is our Rhino chair, which is this lovely sort of sculptural chair inspired by the body, the wide, smooth, curved body of a rhino. And the fabrics are doing really well as well, which. Which I really love because I think, you know, as an interior designer, fabrics are pretty key to what we do. And I've always been drawn to vintage textiles and things with age and patina and interesting little patterns. And it's been really fun to. To go into all of that further. And we partner with a great fabric house called Yarn Collective to produce it all. So you've got none of the headache of actually trying to manufacture hundreds of meters of fabric.
- [33:53]
Dan Rubenstein
Yeah, that's amazing. And of course, you mentioned United in Design, the charity that you co founded. Tell us a little about that. And what is it?
- [34:04]
Charlie Caseley Hayford
Yeah, United in Design is the only charity that in the UK that serves the interior design industry. And the point of it is to remove barriers to entry into an industry that has historically been quite tough to get into unless you know someone. And I think, in fact, something like 79% of interior designers in the UK come from a privileged background. And, you know, I am the case in point. Example of that. I went to private school. My name is Sophie, along with most interior designers in the uk. Okay. And I got my first job because of somebody that I knew, and that has been the case for eternity. And I think I had a. What, you know, slow to the party, but dawning realization during the Black Lives Matter movement in the wake of the murder of George Floyd, that as an owner of a business and someone who employs now 33 people, I have a responsibility to think about how I'm hiring people, what opportunities I'm giving, how I'm thinking about recruitment and really, yeah. My responsibility and making sure that my studio is a diverse place to work, because I think diversity in Thought and background breeds innovation and better results and work. And so it's that simple. It's a simple premise which is just let's make it more inclusive, let's open doors. And basically we do that by this career pathway program that we have which provides internships to graduates as well as mentoring.
- [36:01]
Dan Rubenstein
And how many sort of people have come through the doors at this point? I guess it might be about four or five years later.
- [36:07]
Charlie Caseley Hayford
Yeah, it's been about five on average per year for the last five years. We've got a brilliant new charity director who's brilliantly ambitious and so far is doing exactly what she said she was going to do, which is thrilling and so exciting. So it feels like we're in this new dawn of United in Design. I believe so strongly in hiring the right people and it's worked very well for me with Studio Ashby and Sister. And it's very exciting to now see that happening with United in Design. And yeah, anyway, she's got a target of I think 20 or 25 internships to start for our next cohort. And what that basically means is an interiors business, whether that's an interior design studio or lighting design studio or a manufacturer, maker, anyone adjacent magazine to our industry, providing a kind of four month internship paid to someone. And we help facilitate the internship and provide lots of mentoring and training and kind of workshops to just make sure that it's a successful partnership as possible. And of the previous cohorts, I think we have a 96% retention rate of those individuals. So it's like the writing's on the wall. It works. You create the opportunity for talented people to come in the door, show you what they can do and they get a seat at the table and you know that's their career beginning.
- [37:52]
Dan Rubenstein
And do you find that something that I've always felt, especially about the design industries, maybe this might be more about New York than anywhere else, but it might be something that's common. Is there is that sort of barrier of like who you know and what your references are personally from your family history, but also I think in just normal education for the, for everybody, no matter where you come from. You know, every kids go to school wanting to be an architect. That's the kind of, the only thing in design that people are kind of educated in that people I don't know. Like I didn't even know interior designers really existed until a certain point in my life. Yeah, you're, you're not taught anything else. So how would you know you want to be a lighting designer?
- [38:31]
Charlie Caseley Hayford
Exactly.
- [38:32]
Dan Rubenstein
If you didn't even know lighting designing even existed.
- [38:34]
Charlie Caseley Hayford
Exactly. And that is also part of the problem. And so what we're doing is going into schools and doing careers for affairs and standing there with a clipboard and a sign telling young people all about interior designs and targeting, sorry, interior design as a job and a career. And it's targeting schools where they have a really good mixture of students, and also educating people on the salaries like. Like, what does it mean to. How do you become an interior designer? What should you study? What A levels should you choose? Does it matter? How much money do you get paid as a intern, junior designer? What is the career pathway? Because I think, you know, when we first started the charity, I. I put. I put a statement on Instagram, which is the reason the whole thing kind of kick started. And I made a plea to people to get in touch with me if they were interested in sharing their experiences. And I spoke to about 30 or 40 people on Zoom in the following weeks and listened to a lot of stories. And, you know, one of the barriers to entry is actually that often in black families, for example, I was told a lot that there's a emphasis on these careers, such as law or accountancy or being a doctor, and interior design was getting bundled into the unreliable pathway of, like, being an actor or being an artist or something like that. And so I think at the careers fairs, we're talking to a lot of parents and families and explaining what it is. And, you know, interior design isn't the world's most lucrative career pathway unless you get to a point where you run your own business and then things kind of start changing. But it is a really big industry and it's growing and there are all these adjacent jobs. And, you know, more importantly, it's just. It's. It's a really great job and it's a great industry to be part of. So we're. We're doing what we can through the charity at different levels to just make it known that it's a great industry. And how do you get into it, if you want to get into it, and making sure that the opportunities are there for those who want to get involved.
- [41:03]
Dan Rubenstein
And, Charlie, what do you think about all of that when Sophie must have explained this to you and mentioned that she wanted to do this? Because it sounds like you recruit people for your own business that come from more of a fashion background, but then also more of a, I don't know, like a Savile Row mentality of tailoring. Coming from a childhood of top Hats to school and things like that. There's such different career mindsets that young people might be sort of interested in. And like, did you give any advice to Sophie in terms of like feedback or what you think was important?
- [41:44]
Sophie Ashby
Well, I think think the fashion industry generally is perceived as being one of the most progressive industries. And so I guess when we were comparing it obviously still has a lot of work to do, but when we were comparing notes, it was just a no brainer. And I just commend Sophie for doing it when she did because she already had so much on her plate. But the fact was no one else was stepping up and so she felt like she had had to do it and she's made such success of it and it's really, I think she got a lot of stick at the beginning because people just assumed that the change would happen immediately. But you know, it's taken Sophie a decade to get to where she is in her career. These things don't happen overnight. And the amazing people that she's working with who are now moving through the industry, they're there because they should be. And it's not to do with the color of their skin. And I know that's often a kind of counter argument that's banded about, but there is a severe barrier to entry in interior design and as there is in a lot of industries. And what Soapy is doing is levying out the playing field. So the people who do deserve to be at the table can be. So I'm incredibly proud of her.
- [43:15]
Dan Rubenstein
In the us we're kind of experiencing a sort of political, quite, what's the right word to use, giving us whiplash reactionary thing going on in the US with DEI and everything like that being the first thing on the chopping block. How is it today in, you know, 2025 and the latter half of 2025, you know, in the UK and how is that going in terms of like United Design and sort of that world of communication?
- [43:52]
Charlie Caseley Hayford
Well, the charity was started by myself and Alex Dorley, who is now extremely good friend and she's a talented designer and she, you know, running a charity is very difficult. Asking for money and fundraising is very difficult. It's also completely unnatural state for me to be in, sort of with my hand out asking people for money and amazingly just didn't realize when we set this charity up, Alex and I, that a big part of doing that that would mean that her and I would need to do quite a lot of fundraising. And sometimes it just feels like, God, this is hard work. We're not getting anywhere. And you kind of get lots of doors shut in your face and you fill out a lot of forms asking for funding. And then you hear about what's going on in the US and these changes. And I can look at Alex and think, oh, God, are we really doing this? It's tough. And she is so passionate as a black woman who has experienced all of the things we're fighting against and who has young teenage girls who are about to be ejected into the world looking for jobs. And, you know, she is so passionate for all the right reasons because of her experience that this is needed and that she. She lives the experience of walking into room after room as the only black woman in the room, asking for opportunities or competing. And, you know, I just need to speak to her to be reminded that this is not political. It's just for us and what we're doing, honestly, it's just about trying to do the right thing and just even out the playing field, just make it fairer. And until that feeling goes away and she doesn't tell me the stories of what it's actually like for her, then we just keep going.
- [45:59]
Dan Rubenstein
And the two of you guys have such highly creative and entrepreneurial lives that are both separate but also obviously together. And I was just wondering, do you guys ever consult each other on any kind of day to day in terms of, do you show Sophie, do you show Charlie, like a plan for a living room? Or Charlie, do you show Sophie a bunch of pants and say too high or too pleated?
- [46:29]
Sophie Ashby
It's maybe not so literal, but day to day, we definitely exchange ideas and I think we exchange notes as well. I think a lot of the time it's more about running a business business and how difficult it is and keeping each other buoyed up because it's. It's quite a lonely path. And, you know, why is it lonely? Well, I, I don't. I don't know if you actually. So if you've got. I guess you've now got that little crew of interior designers that you meet up with. But. But it's not that it's competitive, but everyone kind of keeps themselves to themselves. And, you know, Sophie had a breakfast was that this week? And she invited a number of interior designers. And when Sophie was giving a speech, the kind of last thing she said was she just commented on how difficult it was. And it was kind of like she suddenly broke down this barrier. And then everyone confessed about how much they're struggling and how difficult. And I think quite often within the creative industries, there's this facade that we're all smashing it. And I think social media doesn't help that. And I think what I respect and love in terms of the relationship I have with my wife is that we can have those exchanges and we kind of pull one another up because it is challenging at times. And I think because we live and breathe doesn't feel like work. I know a lot of couples who just actively choose not to talk about work as soon as they get home, but that's just not the case for us, is it?
- [48:26]
Dan Rubenstein
Sophie, if you could maybe change one thing about the fashion world that would help Charlie in general, what would you, what would you change? Like, what would you kind of. Now that you've heard Charlie baby complain over the years?
- [48:40]
Charlie Caseley Hayford
Yeah. Oh my gosh. I know. And also Charlie's sister and brother in law and mother, they all work in the fashion industry. So it's actually all I ever hear about and talk about. So I should have a sort of quicker answer, but I suddenly felt a feeling of overwhelm when you said that. Just like, oh, where do I begin?
- [49:00]
Dan Rubenstein
Like, what's the common theme from like, you know, hearing the pitfalls of this weird. Of all these chats of kind of like, of this famously difficult industry that's, you know, from what everything that I've read is getting, only more difficult.
- [49:14]
Charlie Caseley Hayford
It seems to me that it's about the kind of the pace at which newness is required and how many collections a year everyone makes and therefore, and how much of that actually just doesn't sell at full price and then goes on sale and then you're on to the next and there's all this surplus stock in the world and oversupply and it's also transient and trend led. I think that seems to be the conversation that I'm listening to a lot of the time. And I guess what Charlie's doing about that is creating is running a business where it's mostly made to order or made to measure or whatever you want to call it. It's about creating the perfect wardrobe for each individual client and not just for the sake of it, but something that's lasting and enduring and not trend led. And by definition, as soon as you've made the thing last season, I think that concept is what's wrong with the fashion world.
- [50:22]
Sophie Ashby
I think a lot of that has probably been influenced by you, Sophie, as in just talking to you day in, day, day out. And I think the permanence that comes with your work. I was kind of very keen for that to be reflected in my work as well. And I think also the interaction and engagement that, that your clients have with what you do, it's quite often missing from fashion because the very idea of fashion is based, as you said, on transiency and quite often promoting and selling things that people don't need and creating that desire. And I think I've over the years grown a slight disdain towards that. Whilst I respect my peers and I'm not trying to take anything away from them, I just think for me personally, I've tried to build our brand in a slightly different way, so at least feels a little bit more meaningful to myself and to my family.
- [51:30]
Dan Rubenstein
That's quite fair. And Charlie, do you find it, now that it's been a couple years after the pandemic, do you find it challenging to find men that want that kind of, of tailored wardrobe? Or is it, you know, is there a slip sliding back into casualness or if people kind of really come back?
- [51:50]
Sophie Ashby
I think the challenge has been in kind of redefining, I guess, the role of tailoring in a world that increasingly values comfort and versatility. But I, I, you know, what you've just said is something that was pushed quite heavily in the press. And actually we've found personally that the opposites happen. So, and this may just be London, but we have a lot of international clients and I do get a sense it is happening elsewhere, is that a lot of guys who had no interest in suits before the pandemic are now choosing to use it as a form of body armor. And it's almost like they've appropriated the suit and so they flip the traditionalism on its head. And the example I always give is, if you think of a lot of British subcultures, skinheads are a good example. And you look at their uniform, which is very much part of their identity. They're wearing an MA1 bomber jacket, which is pilfered from, obviously from the military and has these kind of very establishment values. And the same with their 12 hole boots, military boots. And it's this idea of taking something establishment and then making it anti establishment post pandemic. You know, whilst it might have been a subconscious move, I feel like a lot of our clients and a lot of guys shopping in our store, their perception of the suit is very different. And so where pre pandemic it was like this separate thing in your wardrobe that you go to wear when you need to get dressed up. Now it's like part of your everyday guys just wearing it on the weekend casually with A T shirt with a knit with trainers, and it's just completely relaxed and become integrated into the everyday wardrobe. So actually we're finding that our sales of relaxed suits have kind of gone through the roof and, and then on the flip side, we're getting a lot of guys who just want to dress up and so we're doing these kind of exquisite, sharp, chic suits on the flip side. So it's actually for us quite an interesting time. And I think maybe that's because where we've positioned ourselves within the market means that people feel like they can explore these new areas confidently with us because it's our world and it's our language and we understand maybe what they don't know how to articulate. You know, a lot of other more traditional tailing houses may struggle with the, the tools that are needed to kind of facilitate these, these needs.
- [54:32]
Dan Rubenstein
And Sophie, what's next for Studio Ashby?
- [54:37]
Charlie Caseley Hayford
What's next for Studio Ashby? We have, we have a few hotel projects we've been working on for a long time, which will finally come to the attention of people in the autumn, which is really exciting. We have lots of long term projects, private client work that we've been working on for years and years and quite a few of them finished this year, which is exciting, including one in Canada. And we're working on a few collaborations. And the most exciting thing for me is that I have a new EA starting in nine days.
- [55:16]
Dan Rubenstein
Okay. All right.
- [55:17]
Charlie Caseley Hayford
So that's all I can think about.
- [55:21]
Dan Rubenstein
And Charlie, what's next for Caseleigh Hayford?
- [55:25]
Sophie Ashby
I'm really enjoying being a shop owner, a retailer. It's kind of still a relatively new experience to me. I think having sold internationally for most of my career, having made this jump, I just absolutely love it. So I think we're looking to open more stores. We're self financed like Sophie is, and so we have to do everything at our own pace. But I think New York's probably next on my list. So I'm coming for you.
- [55:58]
Dan Rubenstein
All right. Yeah, come on over. We need more.
- [56:01]
Charlie Caseley Hayford
Good.
- [56:01]
Dan Rubenstein
Taylor. So the more the merry. I'm telling you, once you're a guy that actually, actually gets a bespoke suit made, you'll never go back. And I completely identify with what you were saying before. And Sophie, if you had to describe Charlie in three words, what three words would you choose?
- [56:24]
Charlie Caseley Hayford
Gentle, thoughtful and kind.
- [56:37]
Dan Rubenstein
Charlie, if you had to describe Sophie in three words.
- [56:42]
Sophie Ashby
I feel like you're our therapist. We're just working through. Visionary, compassionate. I think that about you every day. Inspiring. I don't think you realize the impact you have on people around you.
- [57:04]
Charlie Caseley Hayford
That's very nice.
- [57:05]
Dan Rubenstein
Oh, well, that's. That's sweet. Well, I'm so glad I could be your therapist today. Thank you to my guests Sophie and Charlie, as well as to Laura Blakeman for making this episode happen. The editor of the Grand Tourist is Stan Hall. To keep this going, don't forget to visit our website and sign up for our newsletter, the Grand Tourist curator@thegrandtourist.net and follow me on Instagram danrubenstein, and you can purchase the first ever print issue of the Grand Tourist online now on our website. And don't forget to follow the Grand Tourist on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you like to listen. And leave us a rating or comment. Every little bit helps. Till next time, Sam.