← The Grand Tourist with Dan Rubinstein
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- [00:00]
A
When we ask ourselves, what is architecture? How does architecture different from any building? I think for us it's like what art does. It takes you away from the everyday. It takes you away from what you experience 90% of the time so you can have a different perspective.
- [00:19]
B
Hi, I'm Dan Rubenstein and this is the Grand Tourist. I've been a design journalist for more than 20 years and this is my personalized guided tour through the worlds of fashion, art, architecture, food and travel. All the elements of a well lived life. Design brands all over the world today are obsessed with offering a complete lifestyle, from kitchens to sofas to cabinets. But one Danish brand has taken this concept to a whole new level, offering stays in a totally unique guest house, as they like to call them, which are found all over the map. From Hawaii to Latvia to Andorra, VIPP is a name many of you might know for their iconic dustbin. But in recent decades, the brand has now expanded to a fully fledged luxury interiors company that produces entire collections of products. Kitchens, bathrooms, upholstered seating, cabinets, the works. Modern and utilitarian in spirit, the world of Vipp is also elegant, quiet and timeless. While putting together our spring hardcover print issue, which is out now and available online@thegrandtourist.net by the way, I was invited to stay the weekend at their first American guest house in upstate New York. Called the VIPP Pavilion. It's about a two hour drive northwest from Manhattan. It's surrounded by tall trees and sits in front of a gorgeous man made lake. And a quick shout out to my friend Lane for driving us up there. The grand tourist does not drive. And for being a quick study of the pavilion's very fancy espresso machine that I was too inept to figure out on my own. The house with its glass front facing the lake is designed by my guests today, Sharon Johnston and Mark Lee of the award winning LA based firm Johnston Markley. The firm is one of my personal favorites in American architecture. To me, they're the American modernists of today, creating simple but gorgeous spaces that always catch the eye. Completely free of design gimmicks. They've done cultural, commercial and residential projects all over the map. And for vipp, they've created a little jewel box of a home with two bedrooms and an incredible bath, all situated in a wedge shaped house that overlooks that lake I mentioned. And of course every bit of kit in the entire house is made by vipp. Not only was it a wonderful stay and an amazing place to unplug in this incredible little oasis in the middle of nowhere. But it really did have me measuring my own kitchen back home for a full VIP upgrade. I caught up with Sharon and Mark from their headquarters in LA to discuss their cutting edge practice, how they came to design the first American VIP guest house, how architecture can help us unplug, and more. Well, thank you guys for joining me today. It's really, it's such a pleasure to get to know you. I feel like I've known your work for so long and have always admired it from afar and have never had the chance to meet you guys. So before we dive into this project with vip, tell me a little bit about your firm, the firm itself. How did the two of you guys meet and sort of like what was your respective careers like before that moment? Sharon, why don't you go ahead?
- [03:22]
C
Sure. Great. Thanks for having us. Dan, it's great to meet you. We love your conversation. So it's really fun to be a participant in your program. But Mark and I met actually in graduate school. We shared a studio with Herzog and Demeron. It's called an option studio at the GSD at Harvard. And we met then and just became friends and after graduation came back to la and so that was not the beginning of our firm. But we started exploring the city together and just talking about architecture and our shared love of LA was the beginning of our friendship before we got together and started our firm.
- [04:02]
B
Mark, what do you remember about the day you met Sharon?
- [04:06]
A
Well, we were both students. I think we bonded because we were both from la. Sharon was born and raised in LA and I was born and raised in Hong Kong. But I lived in LA for 10 odd years before going over to the East Coast. So I think we shared this Southern California background.
- [04:25]
C
I think the years in Boston were like some of the hundred year storms of the Northeast. So it was terribly cold during our Boston tenure. So we mourned LA a lot together.
- [04:37]
B
And what made both of you guys want to become architects? Mark?
- [04:42]
A
I think I wanted to be an architect since I was around 8 or 9 years old. Growing up in Hong Kong being such a dense city, the presence of buildings was really felt. And I also grew up during a time when Hong Kong was booming. There are these great masterpieces like Hong Kong, Shanghai bank were being built for me. Architecture is always something that bridge between the arts and the sciences and economics.
- [05:08]
B
Sharon, what about you?
- [05:09]
C
Yeah, I think I came to architecture a bit later than Mark. I mean, I grew up on the beach in Southern California, so I was sort of outside all the time, but not in the city. And then in college I had this, the chance to start traveling a little bit. It was my first time in Europe and I was studying my history was my major. And I started traveling around Italy and found myself, you know, I love to draw. So I was sort of understanding history through drawing and then just sort of put the pieces together that maybe architecture could be a discipline for study in graduate school. And so that was my beginning, sort of more through history.
- [05:45]
B
And when did you guys sort of set out on your own as a team?
- [05:49]
A
We started in 1998. It was after a few years after we graduated from graduate school and both Sharon and I worked for different people. I was also teaching in Switzerland and then decided to move back to la. And that's when we started our practice.
- [06:07]
C
This.
- [06:08]
B
What was your first sort of like big break or first commission?
- [06:12]
C
Sharon yeah, I think, I don't know if it was a big break, but it was important as a foundational kind of community of people that we were working for, which was in Marfa, Texas. I mean, of course a kind of important place for art history. But we had the chance to do, I mean, relatively modest projects for an important literary foundation called Lannan foundation. And you know, building on the legacy of Judd Lannan purchased some pre war that we transformed into writers in Residence studios. And I think what was so important about that experience was maybe less the resulting work because it was pretty straightforward. But the community of people that we began to have dialogue with about architecture and art became really have become seminal friends, collaborators and clients for us. And I think for Mark and I, this, you know, of course we do a lot of work in the arts, but you know, building a community of like minded people in the world of arts and culture has been both sort of intellectually nourishing, it's a source of client connection, but, you know, also just friendship. And I think that's been something that's been really important to us that we have a group of people. It's sort of bigger than our practice, but it somehow creates an orbit of ideas and people that I think sustain us and support us.
- [07:38]
A
I think it's interesting to speak about our beginnings because I was just reminded of what Francois Truffaut said, that the entire career of a filmmaker was already present in the first 150ft of his first film. When Sharon was describing our first project, actually many things that we do now really started then working with the arts community. I mean, similar to the Viv Pavilion, this is a place that's remote, that's a Little bit outside of everyday's life. A lot of the ethos and a lot of the principles that we had evolved over time started there.
- [08:17]
B
And you know, for me, I see your, your, Your work as you guys are as. And you guys are sort of like stewards for this sort of Modernism in the 21st century in sort of like the best way possible. But I don't really want to oversimplify things because you, what you guys do, I feel like, is so special, especially in the US and, and I feel like you guys have ideas that are actually realized in a beautiful way that it's just so rare from my point of view. On the editorial side of things, how do you guys see your own work? Like when you meet a client maybe for the first time and they're like, okay, what do you know? Who are you guys? And what do you do that's that makes you unique? Sharon, why don't you give it a go?
- [08:57]
A
Okay.
- [08:57]
C
Well, I mean, maybe just starting with beginnings. I remember, you know, Mark and I had had some experience, but we were quite young as architects when we started Johnston Mark Lee and I remember we sort a pact that no project was too small as long as the client that had come to us wanted to go on a journey together, that they didn't come to us and say, I want this, deliver it, that we would actually explore something together. And I think that was really important because it gave us confidence to one to try to find folks or be open to people that maybe were incredibly creative but didn't have a big budget or even a very complex project, but wanted to do something important that was meaningful. And so I think, you know, as we've gone on in our career, I don't think people come to Johnston Markley like, I've seen this. I want that. You know, you did this before. I want that again. I think it is still. It goes back to the people connection and the idea of it being a process of discovery that sort of where we end up is not where we imagine at the beginning. And I think that as a context gives us a lot of. I mean, it's a very open process. I think we're incredibly rigorous with how we do our analysis of the site, how we think about program and the technical requirements. But there's also, I think the frame of reference for us is quite broad from art and culture and from people's lives. And I think that that's something that folks, I think as we have a body of work over 20 years, I think people understand that, that there's something that we're going to make that's completely special and personal and specific to each project. And maybe Mark, you could add to that, but I think that is maybe the DNA that we come to be able to describe the process today.
- [10:56]
A
Yeah, I would just add on to that that I think we believe that architecture is a slow art, so it doesn't really succumb to many trends of f things that goes in a much quicker life cycle. Because of that, I think we also stand on the shoulders of history we really believe in. There's a lot of wisdom, there's a lot of knowledge that's embedded in history. So we studied a lot about types, we studied a lot about things that were done before, not to copy it, but to build on top of it. And sometimes the work might not look related to history, but oftentimes it starts off with something very historical or something that is a very known type that we begin to evolve.
- [11:40]
B
And, you know, while your firm works on all these different types of topologies and scales, your residential work sticks out in my mind as something that's so unique because it's, it's so. It's such a pleasure to get that when you look at a lot of homes and it's always something that really stands out. Can you maybe share your approach to sort of single family or, you know, residences and how you guys arrive at these amazing forms and bits of architecture with clients that, you know, it seems like I'm sure a million other architects would kill to be able to get to execute what you guys have been able to do. So tell me about your approach.
- [12:20]
C
Yeah, I mean, I think. Thanks. Thanks for that. I think for us, I mean, like so many young architects in Southern California, the type of the house as a type is really the seminal sort of work that has made Southern California notable in the history of modern architecture. So. And I think it's. It's such a great climate to experiment, especially as young architects. And for us, as we've expanded and grown and matured as architects, we always love coming back to doing houses because it really, for us, the intimacy of the house is germane to every project. The comfort one feels in a house you hope to feel in a museum or an office. And so the role of the domestic continues to be really important to us. And so being able to work with community, private clients and that program type is really a treat. And I think that most we've been fortunate. I mean, they're all very different kinds of sites in terms of our residential projects. But I Think most of our clients, I think they're serious about how they live and so the place of their home, oftentimes they are collectors as well. So art is part of that and that they want to. So that means things like light, how one can bring visitors into the house. It's not only private, but it has a publicness to it as well, whether it's for entertaining and political events or sharing their art collection. And so I think there's a lot of precision in that and that we have to think about the life of them privately, but then how that intersects with different dimensions of their lives. And so I think the site specificity, many of these sites are incredibly. You know, they're very magnificent sites. And so being able to make an architecture that can embrace those very dynamic, especially in Southern California hillsides, great ridge lines, the beach, these typologies that are really canonical in terms of Southern California architecture, how to make them specific to each one of these families through how we think about view and flow and tectonics are, you know, I think that's why people come to us. They want something that is really fits their life. And this place that they've chosen to live, really like a glove, you know, that it has that uniqueness in terms of connecting them to a place, you
- [14:51]
B
know, as an example, Mark, maybe you can tell me the story of the Canal House in Japan that you guys finished a few years back. How would you. It's quite bold. Can you explain it to listeners?
- [15:02]
A
Yeah, I mean, I think even though that house is in Japan, I think because we started in Los Angeles, so a lot of the lessons we learned from houses started was based from Los Angeles, the types that we looked at. So in the 1970, the English critic Reynard Banham wrote a book called Los Angeles and the Architecture of Four Ecologies, where he described four types of landscapes. The plains, the beachfront, the hillside, and the automobile as four ecologies. And now, 50 years later, although the four ecologies are still pretty much the same, the landscape is still the same. We found that LA is much more denser than before, so it's not as open and sparse. And in turn, the houses become much more introverted, as opposed to all this transparency that was desirable in the 50s. So we find that notion of being introverted quite fit quite well with this whole Japanese mentality of living close together but having its own privacy. So when we designed the Canal House in Kyoto is right in front of a small canal, also with the cherry blossom trees. So I think two things we were focusing on is to create an inner courtyard as the central space for the house. That brings light into the whole house. It's a long and narrow lot, but also have these windows that look down towards the river, the canal, and the cherry blossom trees. Another festival that happens in Kyoto is that there's this festival where they light fire in the mountain that spells out certain words once a year. So one of the requests of the client is to take advantage of the cherry blossom season as well as that event. So for us, having this roof garden to look at this distant view of the fiery mountain was important for us. So that was the beginning of the design.
- [16:56]
B
And when you look at it straight on, it looks like it's got these sort of like three very stark levels. Is that right? Like, it's this all white. Like, there's a lot of white, you know, a lot of big, big swaths of white in all of your projects. I don't mean to, like, you know, diminish it in any way, but there's like these three very stark. Almost like it's like a line drawing, like a. It's quite beautiful. Where did that come from?
- [17:21]
A
Well, I think, you know, in terms of the whiteness, I think I would say we are generally. We're modernists, you know, in this sense of thinking about buildings as modern buildings. But we always try to look into sometimes historical types that are regionally based. So I think on one hand, we're looking at the terrace housing, which is quite universal for the stepping. But then the window shapes are our interpretations of these Japanese windows of the 16th century, but in a modern take with the eaves instead of wood, it's built out of concrete. Also, there's actually the top floor is. The last tier is really a roof garden, you know, so in a way, the roof garden is quite enclosed, except for one side that opens up to the mountain.
- [18:10]
B
And, you know, now getting going on to your latest project is this VIP guest house in upstate New York. How did you guys connect with vip? How did that start?
- [18:22]
C
Yeah, I think Sophie. Sophie found us. I think she. We, of course, knew vipp. We have VIP products in our house for many, many years. We love them. And she reached out to us and came to visit. And, you know, I think that's a classic Johnston Markley beginning. It's just, you know, people meeting, having a meal. And, you know, she was building this kind of dimension of the company to have this sort of hospitality dimension, and she wanted to start a conversation with us. So it took, you know, we. We started slowly and Just talked about ideas and learned about the work that they'd been doing. So it was kind of, again, a kind of slow beginning to what we realized together.
- [19:04]
B
And, you know, obviously, a lot of the guest houses are these kind of super serene, very special places all over the world. And so did the site come first, or did you guys talk to them first, or did they come to you with this specific plot of land? Or how did that start, Mark?
- [19:23]
A
I think they already had the land, actually. Trying to remember they have that piece of land already. I think when they first spoke with us, maybe they haven't shared the site yet. We're trying to get an understanding of each other and also the importance of VIP's presence within the house and the scale, the size of the house. And then I think the site came.
- [19:44]
B
And so was there a specific brief for this, or, like, what did they kind of give you, and how did that design start? Because I was there, and it's sort of this amazing house that sort of has this. The living room has one sort of giant window, sliding door thing, and a little patio. And it looks directly out on this pond, and there's like a rock in the pond, and it's very picturesque. Was the pond there? Like, what was the. How did that site evolve and influence the design? What came first?
- [20:16]
A
I mean, I would say definitely the design was completely informed by the site. I think the pond was really the magic part for us. It was so hidden. And also it's very clear also with the site where the house should be sited. There are not a lot of flat area where you can. And we thought that was really the crux that could really channel the. The energy of the pond into the house. So I think the siding was important. And then also the view of the pond from the siding to see this natural curve that turns around. I think the whole idea of having these two half ellipse shapes coming together, I mean, the concept that is like two identical ellipse shapes that place, like an hourglass formation, but then you put a rubber band around it, so you kind of cinch it together. So there's one ellipse shape or half ellipse shape that really opens to the sky. That's the entry courtyard, and one that is directed towards the pond. You know, for us, I mean, like the Japanese house, I think we always like to repeat certain elements to show the differences. Like in the windows of the Japanese house, all of them are the same, but they frame very different things both inside and outside. I think in the VIP pavilion, it's the same case where we use two identical forms, but one is the courtyard is the one that completely pretty much shields you from the nature, that it's ubiquitous and just only opens to the sky. But then for us, that sets as a preface. You can somehow hide the view before the view is shown to you again. And I think for us, when you're in a space and look out at one view, oftentimes the view just sucks you in. You're not aware. And I think for us, being aware of the presence of the curvature of the house in relationship to the curvature of the horizon, the pond was, was important. Or the interaction between the curvatures.
- [22:15]
B
So before you guys started designing, all of that was already in place. Like the pond and there's giant rock and everything. All of that was okay. So. But that part I wasn't 100% sure about.
- [22:25]
C
But one thing, it's almost too perfect. Yeah, one, one detail that was. I mean, of course we thought a lot about how close the building could be to the pond. You know, we wanted it to have a kind of tension. And that is a man made pond. It wasn't. Sophie and Frank didn't make it. But because of that we could. Could put it closer than you might if it was like a title, a tidal water, Body of water. But I think that kind of reflection that you get when you're approaching and you see the building in the reflection in the pond and vice versa when you're inside looking out, that proximity was really important.
- [22:59]
B
And yeah, because there's a lot of homes in that area that have like ponds and little lakes and things like that. So everyone's got a little waterfront something in one way shape or another. Did you guys speak with VIP about their other guest houses in terms of like what they had done before, what maybe had worked, what, you know, what they knew people would really respond to or anything like that.
- [23:22]
A
I would say not in depth. You know, I think Sylvie and Frank showed us some of the things they were thinking about, but they pretty much gave us carte blanche. Besides the importance of the kitchen or a way to test out some of their products or their interior pieces, they're pretty open. I think they were definitively trying to look at different solutions for different sites as opposed to having an identical or very similar identity for all the houses.
- [23:50]
C
And I would say just building on what Mark said, that in many instances, I feel like Sophie and Frank encouraged us to be sort of more conceptual. I mean, less signs of domestic living. So just the texture of things. It's not Very common to see such rough stucco inside the house. And that Sophie really pushed and was comfortable with that because she felt like it made almost a more primitive setting. That contrasted with the sort of engineering of the VIPP design. And I think for us, when you're sitting in the living room looking out and you're surrounded by the elliptical curve that's rough and matte and doesn't reflect light, you feel almost like you're outside. There's a sort of interesting feeling of where the boundaries of inside and outside are in the house. And I think partly there will willingness to push not only the formal architecture, but how the finishes worked and the sort of roughness of things. I think really amplified that feeling of the thing feeling almost like a piece of stone or a rock or not a traditional domestic setting.
- [25:00]
B
And did you guys get to just explore the area, doing any research or anything like that?
- [25:08]
C
Yeah, we did a lot of driving, a lot of just walking and driving around the region. And we would often come from Boston or sometimes from New York. So we would sort of get different kind of orientations from just how you approach Pond Eddy and the site.
- [25:27]
A
I mean, in many ways, it's very similar to our first experiences in Moffitt, Texas, and how Judd chose a place that is so remote. After flying for hours, depending on where you come from, you still have to drive another three hours to get there. That whole process of driving purges you from like the everyday. When you get there, you have a different mindset and it's very similar. I think the location of this whole site is very similar to far away from New York, far away from Boston, or anywhere from Connecticut.
- [26:00]
B
How would you guys describe VIP as a company? Because it is quite unique. And so if you describe it to people who've never heard about it before, how would you describe vip?
- [26:09]
C
Well, I think it starts. What we love is it starts with sort of very, in a way, pragmatic artifacts. You know, the trash can hardware and it build over the years, I think has. I mean, it's a family company and that we love that too, that there's a sort of humanness about how these industrial. This industrial production has evolved. And so I think what, you know, we haven't seen. We haven't traveled to any of the other VIP cabins. But I think like seeing Sophie and Frank's home in New York and working with them, I feel like it's a company that grows with people, which I think is not often what you in terms of the initiatives of the family. And each generation has been different. And I think that is tangible. When you talk to them, they want to hear from, they want to collaborate both within their own family, but with others like us as architects. So I think it's grown in really interesting ways that are driven by human interests and not only just corporate bottom line. And I that's what's. So there's a sort of spark and surprise about the initiatives that they have inaugurated. And I think that is really compelling. At the same time, the foundation of what they do is very based on solid engineering and timeless design. And so I think that's sort of the best qualities of strong foundational design principles with confidence to experiment and to grow with collaborators that are outside of the company. You know, we ourselves as architects often reach out and include artists or other architects in our work. And I think that there's something, you know, takes kind of confidence and willingness to let go a little bit to see where a new collaborator might lead you. And I think that I really value that about the company, that they have both the heritage and a future oriented idea of how to grow with other folks outside of the company.
- [28:20]
A
I would add, I think early on Sharon mentioned Angadin Valley. I was thinking of the writer Max Fish, who talked about the Swiss. He said that no matter what they do, the Alps will always laugh at them. He said the only way out is to turn their back towards the Alps and then work on something very small, like a detail, and then you build up whole product from that detail. So this whole Swiss watch making mentality, start with something small that grows to be something bigger. I see that as part of that legacy of vip, of a company of multi generations that been developing the bin. It's really about designing instruments for me. So there's a certain precision with the detail. So even when it expands to other realms like the kitchen lamps, furniture, always look for that detail. The idea of this instrument, instrument for living, instrument for cooking, I feel it's very present. I feel that's part of that DNA and it's also not restrictive. So when we design, design the building, although we're not talking about that type of engineering, but that type of precision or the sense of precision is kind of important for us.
- [29:28]
B
And do you guys think with about, you know, there's so much talk about technology today and the sort of omnipresence of it all and how it's so ingrained in our lives and in how much time we spend and how many podcasts we listen to. Do you guys think at all about unplugging and how this sort of concept of unplugging is becoming more and more popular about how to integrate that into space and how people move about space and become occupied in a space without having a device or anything like that. It might be a little, kind of a strange question, but I was wondering if you had any thoughts on that.
- [30:12]
A
I think sometimes I think it's something that's healthy to unplug, but I think we tend to think in a more positive way as opposed to being anti something. So as opposed to being anti digital or anti technology, we're thinking of could we have more presence of things that are analog, could we have presence of more physical books? If a physical book is there, if something that's haptic, something that you can touch, you can turn the page, that could be an option, a very positive option to take a break away from the phone, a break from the tablet. I still think maybe we old school, we still believe in books. We still think the time it takes to flip a page, it gets to a different part of your brain that you pay more attention to and that I think the presence of those materials of slow consumption is important for us.
- [31:02]
B
And here's another sort of slightly out of order question. So for a million dollar question, why is it called Johnston Markley if Mark Lee is one word and not just Johnston Lee or Lee Johnston Constant?
- [31:17]
A
Oh, because my name, both my first name and last names are so short. So when I grew up, my good friends all called me Mark Lee. Even my parents call me Mark Lee. So we thought it's more symmetrical.
- [31:30]
B
Okay, well the copy editor in me is shaking his fist in the air. He can't just remove his face. So what's next for you guys?
- [31:41]
C
Well, I think in some ways it's more of the same. I think we have some really exciting projects on the horizon that are art related projects all around the world. So we, I think maybe going back to what Mark said about kind of slow growth, I think for us working with like minded people and going on that journey together of design is still really central. I think the more experience we have, the more we realize how much great clients mean to being able to realize the projects that we hope to create. And so I think with more experience, I think maybe it's a little bit easier to find our front door than it might have been when we were just starting out. But we feel incredibly privileged to have such great clients that want to collaborate with us.
- [32:39]
A
We hesitated a bit when you asked because I've been thinking about what do we sign NDAs for nowadays we have to sign so many non disclosures. I say, oh, where are we now with some of these? I would say having been in practice for 27 years or so, right now I think we're not looking for a certain type of project, but we are looking for experiences to work with people that we truly like, interested in or admire. So I think that people experience during the process is very important for us now.
- [33:16]
B
And if you guys had to spend, you know, two or three days at the VIP guest house in New York, what would you guys bring with you or what would you, how would you spend the time? Is there a book or, or, or a movie or an activity?
- [33:35]
C
Yeah, I mean, definitely. I mean the first thing that happened, we were there last week too and we, you know, all of a sudden there was space in my mind to sit down and read and that was really incredible. And I also walked a lot. Think that's you know, as one gets to know with a lot of visits get to find shortcuts and pathways that I think are really telling help you understand the landscape more deeply. So I would say walking shoes and some books.
- [34:07]
A
You know, for me, I think, you know, last. The last trip there I really get to enjoy our building, which we seldom do. You know, sometimes our buildings we get to visit for a short period of time, but just staying there for an extended time, you get to notice this small details. You have to notice the acoustical qualities, how light changes, you know, I really appreciate it.
- [34:31]
B
Thank you to Johnston Markley, Sophie Christensen Eglund at vipp and to Irene Kapitoff for making this episode happen. The editor of the Grand Tourist is Stan Hall. Don't forget this podcast is part of our hardcover spring print issue, available for purchase online now@thegrandtourist.net and sign up for our newsletter, the Grand Tourist curator on our site as well. And follow me on Instagram hegrandtourist podcast and follow the Grand Tourist on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to listen. And leave us a rating or comment. Every little bit helps. Till next time.