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The Grand Tourist with Dan Rubinstein
Blenheim Palace: Touring History with Lady Henrietta Spencer-Churchill
00:47:22
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- [00:01]
Lady Henrietta Spencer Churchill
Well, it certainly doesn't look like a castle or a castle as Americans Americans often say Blenheim Castle. And I say actually no, it's not a castle, there's no castellation there. It doesn't look like a castle, but it does look like a palace. And if it was Blenheim House, it would rather demean the property, to be honest, because it is, you know, it's a huge place and it does warrant the word palace, to be honest.
- [00:28]
Dan Rubenstein
Hi, I'm Dan Rubenstein and this is the Grand Tourist. I've been a design journalist for more than 20 years and this is my personalized guided tour through the worlds of fashion, art, architecture, food and travel. All the elements of a well lived life. As an American, the term English country house always makes me smirk. To us, it means a little cabin somewhere to get away from city life. To the British aristocracy, however, it's so predictably self deprecating. In a way, it means an enormous mansion with hundreds of rooms, grand gardens, working farms and stately decor that would rival the royal residences of just about any other country on earth. But in England, there's one country house that is so grand, so stately, it's the only one in the UK that has the privilege of using the title palace without being royal. Blenheim Palace. Built in the early 1700s near Oxford and designed by Jonathan Vanbrugh and Nicholas Hawksmoor, a protege of Christopher Wren. It was called Blenheim because the land was awarded to John Churchill for his victory at the Battle of Blenheim during the War of the Spanish Succession against the dastardly French and Bavarians in what is now Germany. Created in the English Baroque style with a landscape by the famed Capability Brown, like many of these enormous 18th century creations, had a tumultuous history in its early days and for hundreds of years, until today has been looked after by the Churchill family. Today it's known as the birthplace of another famous Churchill, Winston. But as you'll learn today, that was something of a complete accident. And an even younger generation today knows it as the place where one of the Bridgerton series was shot, among many other thrillers and costume dramas. The house is looked after by my guest today, Lady Henrietta Spencer Churchill, the eldest daughter of the 11th Duke of Marlborough and a noted interior designer and design book author herself. For the first time in quite some time, Blenheim palace has been definitively photographed for a new book by Henrietta from Rizzoli, out now called 300 Years of Life in a Palace. I caught up with Henrietta from The road to discuss her incredible new book and the hidden spots and incredibly grand rooms. It covers the dramatic history of the palace itself, whether or not she's seen a ghost on the premises, the inside story on how Winston Churchill came to be born on the property, and much more.
- [02:52]
Unnamed Interviewer
And congrats on this book. It's incredible. We're speaking before it's released, of course, and I've seen previews and it's quite the tome and quite beautiful. How did this get started? What inspired this?
- [03:07]
Lady Henrietta Spencer Churchill
Well, I've worked on many books with Rizzoli over the past. My first book published with them was in 1992, so most of them design related, but they all have a historical background element to them, which is the part I enjoy because a lot of the houses I work on are historic homes. So I like to do the research into the historic background of the homes and the period and the detail. And actually Charles Myers, who's the president of Rizzolio, has been badgering me, shall we say, for many years to do a serious book on Blenheim. And, you know, my life is very busy, what with my interior design business and doing a lot of things at Blenheim anyway, so it was just a question of finding the time. There's never a good time, but I sort of enjoy a challenge.
- [03:58]
Unnamed Interviewer
And when was the last time a serious volume like this was produced?
- [04:04]
Lady Henrietta Spencer Churchill
Probably never. I have done a book on Blenheim previously myself, about 20 years ago, but it was much more of a personal portrait, so it was sort of my recollection. So it did have some history into it, but this is much more serious. So it covers everything from the people to the architecture to the park and garden, the interiors. And when I say interiors, it's all the details, everything from paintings to china to sculpture, bronzes, fireplaces, plaster work. So it's quite intensive. And then we go into logistics because a lot of people like to know about how a big place like that actually works and how it's changed over the centuries, which it obviously has a lot, you know, from having many hundreds of servants and staff down to being now sort of much more run like a business. So it has changed dramatically in particular, I would say, in the last 50 years. And so it just seemed interesting to put all that down on paper. And it's been wonderfully wonderful. Photographic illustrations, mostly done by Hugo Ritson Thomas and then some by our in house photographer, Pete Seward.
- [05:20]
Unnamed Interviewer
And, you know, the topic of Blenheim is so massive. But I'm wondering before we get to all of that and all of the history. What are your first memories of the palace?
- [05:31]
Lady Henrietta Spencer Churchill
Well, actually, people sort of wrongly always assume that I grew up there. In fact, I didn't because of the palace being handed down from generation to generation. When I was a child, obviously my grandfather was still alive, so he was living there. And my father was, as people, the eldest son is always groomed to do. He was very much involved in running at the place. But in those days it wasn't so much a business, it was very much. We'd have a land agent, a state agent, and it wasn't nearly so commercial as it is now. So, in fact, I think for my grandfather's time, it was quite an enjoyable process because he didn't have hundreds of thousands of visitors trampling all over the place, which, of course we need. And he was very into his sporting activities. Hunting, shooting, riding, whatever, big weekend social parties. And my mother and my father, well, when they. When they got married, they bought a very pretty Georgian house about five miles away. So my father was living there and running his own farm, actually, and he'd had an army upbringing, and so he was very disciplined and, you know, knew what his life's work was cut out to do. And then my father, my grandfather, sorry, died in 1972. So although as children we'd spent a lot of time there, we'd never actually lived there. So it was after then that we. We had actually quite a bizarre life. We spent six months in the Georgian house in the summer months to have the privacy, and then six months in the winter at Blenheim because my father was. Enjoyed the sporting activities and to someone.
- [07:12]
Unnamed Interviewer
Who didn't really grow up there. But what is your. What was your impression when you kind of first laid eyes on it, do you remember?
- [07:18]
Lady Henrietta Spencer Churchill
Well, I suppose, you know, I went there probably on a weekly basis with my father, and as children, my brother and I, we were encouraged to go and help. You know, we'd go and help the garden gardener pick fruit and vegetables. At that time, there was a small gift shop, but we'd go and help serve ice creams and serve in the gift shop. And so we actually spend much more time outside than inside. I was. I was rather terrified of my grandfather. He was. He was a lovely man, but he didn't have a lot of patience for young children, I don't think. Actually, one of the most amusing things we did learn to do was water ski on the lake.
- [07:55]
Unnamed Interviewer
Oh, wow, okay. Yeah, that's. What a way to learn.
- [07:59]
Lady Henrietta Spencer Churchill
Exactly. Although it was cold, we had to Wear wetsuits.
- [08:02]
Unnamed Interviewer
I'm sure you did. You know, if someone is, if you meet someone, especially maybe in the States and they've never heard of Blenheim before and you just have to explain to them, say at a, at a dinner party, and they're like, okay, how would you describe it?
- [08:17]
Lady Henrietta Spencer Churchill
Well, it's essentially, it's a baroque palace and it's the only private palace in England outside, you know, one of the royal palaces. And that's largely because Blenheim was the royal park of Blenheim was a hunting ground for the royal family. And it's 2,000 acres encased in a wall. And I mean, it is, it is very grand. And the reason it's, one of the reasons it's so grand is because firstly, baroque architecture is quite austere and grand. And secondly, John Churchill, who was my great ancestor, who became the first Duke of Marlborough, he was the one who acquired by act of parliament Blenheim as a gift from Queen Anne and the nation. And when he went about building the house, he wanted something to equal Versailles because he'd fought Louis XIV in the wars of the Spanish succession. So he thought, you know, right, if we're going to build a palace or something we know which is a gift from the nation, let's make sure it's big enough and important enough to equal Versailles.
- [09:20]
Unnamed Interviewer
And how did it. Because, you know, that's part of the. From a design point of view, I'm curious about the title of palace because it's the only. Is it the only non. Royal palace?
- [09:30]
Lady Henrietta Spencer Churchill
Yes.
- [09:31]
Unnamed Interviewer
Why were they allowed to call it that? Was it because the land was a royal hunting ground before?
- [09:36]
Lady Henrietta Spencer Churchill
I believe so. I mean it's never. Well, it certainly doesn't look like a castle.
- [09:43]
Unnamed Interviewer
Right.
- [09:43]
Lady Henrietta Spencer Churchill
Or a castle. As Americans, Americans often say Blenheim Castle. And I say, actually, no, it's not a castle. There's nothing, there's no castellation there. It doesn't look like a castle, but it does look like a palace. And if it was Blenheim house, it would rather demean the property, to be honest, because it is, you know, it's a huge place and it does warrant the word palace.
- [10:08]
Unnamed Interviewer
Sure. And so when it came to finding an architect. Forgive me, like John, John Van Bra is how you pronounce it. When it came to the architect, John Vanbrugh, he was, from what I read in the book, he was sort of, I was a self taught architect and a friend of the family and quite the card as it sounds. Tell me about him and like how you know, well, he was.
- [10:38]
Lady Henrietta Spencer Churchill
Initially renowned as a playwright, very talented, very great ascetics. And he had built Castle Howard before Blenheim. And you can see a lot of influences from Castle Howard in Blenheim. But his great partner was Nicholas Hawksmoor, who was much more qualified than Vanbrugh was. And it was very much a collaboration between John Vanbrugh, who I think had the big picture and the big ideas, and Nicholas Hawksmoor. So I don't think anything would have happened without Hawksmoor and all equally the other very talented craftsmen who worked on the property. Interesting enough, Sarah, his duchess, she knew she would have been managing this project because he was still in Europe fighting. And so it was very much left to her to deal with all the contractors Vanbrugh, who eventually she fell out with. But she wanted to employ Christopher Wren because she wanted a much more modest, pretty property. And I think that was probably the only way John got his way over Sarah.
- [11:48]
Unnamed Interviewer
And you wrote in the book that. Oh, gosh. That she was on top of every detail. In many ways, she was the worst possible client an architect or interior designer could have. Tell us about that process. Like, what was the brief, by the way? Like what? You know, she wanted something pretty, but then she didn't get. You got this rather dramatic fellow and his business partner. And what was that process back and forth like that, you know, of.
- [12:13]
Lady Henrietta Spencer Churchill
Well, having read quite a lot of the correspondence recently and actually in the past, yeah, there's a lot of antagonism going on between that relationship. But she was, I mean, a very strong and had very clear mind as to what she wanted and what was right and what was wrong. I mean, she really was way ahead of her time. And I think she felt it also her duty, you know, to manage the project as John wasn't around and she knew what he wanted, and even after he died, she made it her life's work to finish the palace as to a standard he would have wanted. And as a fitting tribute to him. So having hated it initially, I think at the end of it, she was, you know, actually quite proud and stayed hang on to it for a long time because she outlived all but one of her children and some of her grandchildren.
- [13:06]
Unnamed Interviewer
Oh, gosh. And, you know, aside from being maybe a tricky client, like, what do we know about her? Because she is. I mean, from your own point of view, because what your take on her as a woman is because she is such a big figure in history and her relationship to the Queen and she was quite influential.
- [13:23]
Dan Rubenstein
How would you.
- [13:25]
Unnamed Interviewer
How would you describe her, if she could magically appear and you could spend an afternoon with her, what would that kind of be like, do you think?
- [13:32]
Lady Henrietta Spencer Churchill
Gosh, I wish I'd known her. I think we wouldn't stop talking for weeks on end, to be honest. I was huge admiration for her. You know, obviously perhaps sometimes her too strong will got the better of her, which is why she ended up falling out with Queen Anne. But nonetheless, you know, being in that position, when it's, in those days, it was very much a man's world and I mean she had a lucky break. She, you know, worked her way up through the court circles and was friendly with Queen Anne and I guess it was because of that and mixing with a lot of influential people and politicians, etc. So not only did she build up a huge portfolio of properties and wealth in her own right, but she was also, you know, managing those of her children and grandchildren. So she very much controlled the purse strings and everything.
- [14:22]
Unnamed Interviewer
And in terms of the palace, in terms of its scale, do you have statistics memorized? I'm sure. How many rooms are we talking about here in total?
- [14:32]
Lady Henrietta Spencer Churchill
Well, how do you describe rooms? I mean there's between two or 300, but some of them are usable and some of them are not so usable and some of them are in the attics and haven't been used for many years and some of them are off little secret staircases. So it's very difficult to quantify the number of rooms. I think what a lot of people always assume is it's a very austere, daunting house inside, but actually it's not, it's the rooms of massive proportions, especially on what I say, the public side. So you've got, you know, 30 foot plus ceilings and, but they're all perfectly formed, you know, the right proportions, doors are in the right places. Everything's beautifully considered. But in fact the way it's furnished in particular on the private side and on the public, it's, it's very welcoming. I think people are always surprised by that. You know, they arrive and think, oh, actually this is, you know, quite lovely.
- [15:32]
Unnamed Interviewer
And it's quite welcoming and you know, if I, if someone arrived and let's say I met you there and I've never been so. And I said, you know, let's, let's do a brief tour of the palace, you know, where would you kind of start with someone?
- [15:47]
Lady Henrietta Spencer Churchill
Well, I think normally one would do the public side first. So you enter up those grand steps through the portico there and into the great hall, which Has a wonderful ceiling which is painted by Sir James Thornhill. And I mean that it's not like your average hall. It's very much a place which is now used for entertaining, but it would have been where all the guests came and gathered before being taken off to other rooms. And then you do a tour, which is predominantly on the south side of the house through the state rooms. So the grander rooms, which are all en fillade, which means each room runs from one to another. So there's sets of double doors that effectively go from the east side of the house to the west. In the middle of that south side, you have the saloon, which is effectively a grand dining room. But throughout the periods, which is also interesting take which I talk about in my book, it's depending on which duke and which generation, it's been used for different occupations. So during the 7th Duke's reign, which is the Victorian period, it was very much used as a drawing room, so full of lots of plants and overstuffed sofas and chairs. Whereas now it's very much a grand dining room used for entertaining, but has multifunctions. You know, you can have six tables of 12 or you can have one long table. It can just be for receptions. So, you know, it's. It's very functional. And then I guess one of the pieces de resistance is the long library, which was originally built as a picture gallery, so that runs the whole of the west side of the house and now overlooks one of the water terrace gardens. We'll talk a bit about the park and gardens up a bit later, because that's changed immensely. And so, yes, so this long library, you know, runs the whole length of the house and overlooks the water terraces. And at one end it has a fabulous Willis organ, which the 8th Duke installed actually with money from his second wife, Lillian Hammersley, who was an American, of course.
- [18:04]
Unnamed Interviewer
And. And where would you. Where would you end up?
- [18:09]
Lady Henrietta Spencer Churchill
Well, if you're on the public tour, you would end up now because we just recently finished its restoration. I'm looking in the chapel, which is actually one of my favorite rooms. And I'm so pleased, really. We did it in memory of my father, with help of our foundations, Blenheim foundation, the UK and the US one. And there's a fabulous Rice Brat monument in there, which Sarah had this built after John had died in his memory. And it basically features her and him and their two sons, both of whom died at a young age. And the daughters don't feature, even though the, you know, the family went through the female line. The inheritance went through the female line.
- [18:53]
Unnamed Interviewer
Oh, gosh. And was the chapel sort of like an there from the very beginning or was it added later?
- [18:59]
Lady Henrietta Spencer Churchill
No, she added it after he died. I think it was always planned but was never completed. So John sort of saw most of the house completed and they lived on the east wing, which even today is the private side of the house. So if I was going to take you on the private side, which is also partially open to the public because for inheritance tax reasons, we have to open it for so many days a year. And so that is, you know, the area that they first occupied and that today is still very much the family side of the house.
- [19:35]
Dan Rubenstein
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- [21:05]
Unnamed Interviewer
And you know, with hundreds of years of history and obviously, you know, the, you know, the first family who built it. Is there another generation you believe is probably like the most influential when it comes to the Blenheim that we still have today?
- [21:22]
Lady Henrietta Spencer Churchill
Yeah, it's a very good question. And yes, I tend to very much focus on the fourth Duke. So we're now talking about around the 1750s, 1760s, and he and his wife Caroline, they were really the first family to live in Blenheim like a family home because Henrietta, who became the second duchess after, as they had no surviving male heirs, didn't live there or partially. And that was largely because her mother was still there, Sarah in control. And then the third Duke, Charles, he was the eldest son of Earl Spencer, so it was just to put that in perspective. So it was their eldest son, Earl Spencer, who became the third Duke of Marlborough, and their second son, Charles, who became Earl Spencer, who Princess Diana and the royal family today is descendants of, so going back to the 4th Duke. So he. He inherited at the age 19, and with a huge dowry, a huge amount of money, because he was left around, I think it was half, 500,000 pounds, which in those days was a. Gosh, yes, huge amount of money. But he was very smart, had a lot of aesthetic too. And so he was the one who employed Capability Browns. So spent a lot of money and time and effort remaking the landscape, basically. So it was Capability Brown who put in the great lake. And that was interesting because Vanborough had designed the Grand Bridge to go over a canal, stream, canal, which was already there, but the bridge looked really slightly out of proportion with just this small stream running through it. And, of course, when the lake was built, really came into its own. So it's almost like, you know, Vanbrugh had this vision of someday there being a lake there.
- [23:27]
Unnamed Interviewer
And, you know, obviously Capability Brown is known as, like the great English gardener. You know, the. The name everyone looks up to. You know, when you walk the grounds today, you know, what. How does it make you feel? What is your. How do the grounds speak to you?
- [23:47]
Lady Henrietta Spencer Churchill
They're very special, actually. And there's areas. There are many different areas. So actually the north, not the north. Well, the sort of east side of the park and the oldest part of the park is full of oak trees, which had been there long before the palace were built. And so you go up there and you wouldn't necessarily know, you know, you were in the grandeur of Blenheim, because it's very overgrown. Beautiful trees, ferns, lovely walks through the woodland. And then when you go back to the palace and further round to the west and north, then there you see much more the influence of Capability Brown, because it's quite flat, funnily enough, around the land around there. So a lot of the undulation in the parkland has been created. It wasn't natural and that was a lot of it by Capability Brown. So I think it's. The park is very much made by the trees, the woodlands, and it's natural, you know, it's not. It's not over fussy, it's not. Doesn't have the grand formal gardens, like somewhere like Versailles. It's very much all about the parkland rather than formality.
- [25:00]
Unnamed Interviewer
And, of course, we can't forget to mention Winston Churchill and his connection there. I believe he was born there. Correct. And he is, forgive me if I'm wrong, your grandfather's cousin.
- [25:15]
Lady Henrietta Spencer Churchill
Yes. So basically, his grandfather was the seventh duke, his uncle was the eighth duke, and his first cousin was my grand, great grandfather, the 9th Duke. And to put that also into perspective, so my great grandfather, the 9th Duke, was the one who married Consuelo Vanderbilt. Thus my American connections. So which, you know, needs to say I'm very proud of. And we still have good connections with that. And I'm actually on the board of the Newport Preservation Society in Rhode island, so which is where, you know, they built Marble House and the Breakers. So it's lovely to have that involvement and, you know, see that side of the family.
- [26:01]
Unnamed Interviewer
And do you know, he was. He was born there, if I'm. If I'm correct. Like, do we know where was he born on?
- [26:08]
Lady Henrietta Spencer Churchill
Well, he wasn't. It wasn't planned.
- [26:10]
Unnamed Interviewer
Okay, so good to know.
- [26:13]
Lady Henrietta Spencer Churchill
His mother and father were spending the weekend there. It was a big weekend party organized by the 9th Duke. And, you know, typical English weekend party. There was hunting, shooting during the day, and there was a big ball planned for the evening. And so the story goes, either it was a sort of rumbling of the carriages over the cobblestones that brought the berth on early, or it was her dancing too vigorously the night away. Anyway, yes, Winston was born premature. I think it was a few weeks premature. And he was born in a room which had belonged to, in previous generations, the local vicar called. The resident vicar called Dean Jones. And it's a very modest little room which is on the main floor in between the sort of great hall and the saloon, tucked away. And that's where he was born. So it's become quite a thing, that room. And actually, I recently renovated a few years ago, and we're lucky enough to have on display a lot of Winston Churchill's original paintings. So it's very much his space.
- [27:26]
Unnamed Interviewer
Oh, that's nice. How many people that come to the house kind of look to connect with him, do you think?
- [27:35]
Lady Henrietta Spencer Churchill
I think. I mean, yes, I think, you know, we're very lucky that we have that connection as well, because it's certainly a great tourist attraction as well as, obviously, the palace itself and the many events we put on. But I think, in particular, a lot of Americans love that Churchill connection, and it is. We now also have A relatively new Churchill Exhibition, which is down in the lower ground floor in an area which overlooks the water terraces. And so we sort of illustrate his various aspects of his life, you know, from the wars to being a politician, etc. And it's a lovely event, actually. It's a lovely exhibition and very personal. And we're lucky enough to have had various members of his side of the family lend us things for the exhibition.
- [28:23]
Unnamed Interviewer
And, you know, there's also a garden. I think it's near the Temple of Diana. Correct. It's sort of like the garden is somewhat of a tribute to him.
- [28:32]
Lady Henrietta Spencer Churchill
Yeah, tell us about that. Well, it's actually quite modest. It's really just a timeline of his life. So it's right by the Temple of Diana, which is where he proposed to Clementine staying the weekend at Blenheim. And so it starts there, and then there's a path that sort of wanders through, meanders through the grassland. In the center of it, there's a fabulous bust by Oscar Niemann, the sculptor. And then inset, there are slabs of stones depicting important dates of his life, you know, like when he went to Harrow, when he went to the army, when he first became Prime Minister, blah, blah, blah, etc. And then, you know, throughout different times of the year, it's planted with spring flowers or summer flowers. So it's not by any means at all grand. And by the way, nor is his grave, because he selected to be buried at family burial ground, which, interesting enough, is not in Woodstock, the town of Woodstock, which is really where Blenheim is located, but it's Bladen, which is the adjacent little town, and it's an incredibly pretty but modest graveyard. And he chose to be there so he could be next to his brother Jack and other members of the family, rather than in Westminster Abbey.
- [29:54]
Unnamed Interviewer
And, you know, of course, speaking of the grounds for a second, tell us about the Grand Avenue, the sort of what it is and how it's used today. I believe it kind of went from an original approach to the palace to this sort of.
- [30:08]
Lady Henrietta Spencer Churchill
Well, there's various. There's various, actually avenues. The main entrance now is off the main road from Oxford to Woodstock, and that's called the Hensington Gate. And that always been planted up with trees. We had elms and you may remember, probably too young to remember, but there was a big blight of elm disease in England. I think it was in the 70s, because I do remember it, and I remember my father and grandfather being incredibly upset about it because there were a huge Amount of elves, which I think talking about the grand avenue which was planted from the north end gate and which goes all the way up to the monument and then towards the palace. And those trees were planted, essentially laid out as the troops had been in various battles, in particular, the Battle of Blenheim. So it was sort of significant to that particular time. But a lot of those died, but we have replanted them all with lime and plane.
- [31:11]
Unnamed Interviewer
And there's a lovely photo of sheep sort of grazing on the lawn as it is. As it is now. And it is a working estate. Correct. I mean, tell us a little bit about that sort of tradition and how that lives on.
- [31:24]
Lady Henrietta Spencer Churchill
Well, basically, the sheep act as lawnmowers, so they keep the grass down. We used to have cattle. We have a few cattle now, but you and I used to be very big, the farming enterprise, but. And we haven't had a lot of tenant farmers. We still have a few, but farming is really not one of the big enterprises anymore because the land is used for so many other things. But the sheep are essential. It's overrun with lambs at the moment, which is rather lovely, but as I say, they're really there to keep the grass down. And actually, quite recently, the land agent, the land manager, he decided to get rid of a lot of the fencing, so the park is much more open than when it was before, which actually looks amazing because you really appreciate it as a parkland rather than as farmland where there were lots of fences separating into separate fields.
- [32:24]
Unnamed Interviewer
And, you know, there are a lot of murals at Blenheim, and we sort of mentioned the saloon, but do you know how many there there are?
- [32:34]
Lady Henrietta Spencer Churchill
There's not that many murals, funnily enough. So you've got the ceilings, the two ceilings in the great hall and the.
- [32:41]
Unnamed Interviewer
Saloon by Louis Laguerre, Correct?
- [32:43]
Lady Henrietta Spencer Churchill
Yes. So it's Sir James Thornhill and then Louis Laguerre. Sir James Thornhill was supposed to paint the one in the saloon, but Sarah, having her sharp financial hat on, decided he was too expensive. So said, now, you've already ripped me off doing the ceiling in the Great hall, so I'm not going to use you for the saloon. So she had Louis le Gure. So they are. Yes. Trompe d'oeil work, as well as allegriqual scenes on the ceilings. But mostly, I think one of the things we're well known for, the wonderful tapestries, and they are depicting the various battles. So in all the state rooms and some of the other rooms, we've got a series of tapestries and they really are, I think, some of the finest examples of tapestries I've ever seen. So very special.
- [33:37]
Unnamed Interviewer
Which one is your favorite?
- [33:38]
Lady Henrietta Spencer Churchill
I don't really have a favorite actually, because they're all. They're all so interesting because there's. You just can't believe the detail of these things. Actually, one of my favorites is there's a. It's the Battle of Blenheim and there's. John is on his horse, his white horse, and there's a dog running behind him. And you know, they weave these tapestries from the cartoons which have been drawn in advance. And evidently somebody didn't get it quite right because they've given the dog horses hooves rather than paws.
- [34:15]
Unnamed Interviewer
That's probably one of those mistakes that was caught too late.
- [34:17]
Lady Henrietta Spencer Churchill
Yeah. And you know, nobody. It's funny because nobody ever notices you unless you pointed out to them.
- [34:23]
Unnamed Interviewer
That's hilarious. And obviously, as you mentioned earlier, there's a wonderful chapter called logistics in the book, which is about life sort of below stairs. And obviously today most, you know, obviously because of shifting, you know, political topics, but also obviously television, like Downton Abbey and Upstairs, Downstairs and all that kind of stuff. And doing the research for the book, did you discover anything about this side of Blenheim that kind of surprised you or what do you think that might surprise other people?
- [34:59]
Lady Henrietta Spencer Churchill
I think, I mean, I don't think I necessarily discovered huge things that I didn't necessarily know. Although it was quite interesting going through one of our attics, we do have a huge amount of old liveries. And it was surprising how many liveries outfits we still own. You know, whether it was for the horse, the coachman or the stable liveries or the upstairs. You say upstairs, downstairs. And I guess for other people, what is incredibly interesting is how many little secret staircases there are which are hidden off rooms which gave the staff access up to the bedroom floor. You know, whether in those days they would have been bringing the hot water for people to bathe or coming to help them get dressed for dinner and their fifth outfit of the day, change of outfit for the day. So it's really all those sort of things. And then also I suppose the areas where the staff used to live, you know, there's one area which is called Housemaid's Heights, so that there were. There was very much a division between the men slept and where the ladies slept.
- [36:06]
Unnamed Interviewer
Yeah. In terms of, you know, it is a house that has gone through so many, you know, periods of refurbishment and redesign and upkeep. You know, what is the to give someone the understanding of the scale of that effort. You know, there are foundations that support it. Tell us about that. What is the state of the house compared to so many of the other, you know, historic estates in the uk?
- [36:33]
Lady Henrietta Spencer Churchill
I mean, I think we have a. A very efficient and good management team in place, all of whom are passionate about Blenheim and doing the right thing for Blenheim. And so over the last. Well, it started while my father was still alive, but it's been carrying on at a pace since he died. I think the frustrating thing for me is that so much of the money is spent behind the scenes. So, you know, we all appreciate what's been done and know it has to be done, but actually the general public don't see it and don't necessarily appreciate it. So whether it's rewiring, putting in new heating systems and new pipe work, new radiators, very sophisticated high tech fire security, you know, so compartmentalizing areas, very sophisticated sprinklers and fire alarm systems. Our next huge project is we have to redo the roof over the great hall and the saloon, which is going to be a two year project, hopefully starting next year, and going to cost around 10, 12 million pounds. So it's a horrific amount of money to spend on something that nobody's particularly going to notice, but it has to be done. And if it's not done, then those wonderful murals and ceilings which she talked about earlier, will actually crash to the ground. So there's a lot of stuff that goes on behind the scenes which I find frustrating being in my role, because there's a lot of areas which do need proper redecoration. So, you know, new curtains, upholstery, new upholstery, endless things. And the budget just is not. Doesn't stretch enough to go on that. So. And there's a. One of my great passions, which I'm hoping to do in the next few years, is restore a magnificent state bed which was designed by a very famous furniture company called Ince Mayhew and it was commissioned by the 4th Duke for when George III came to stay. And nobody's ever seen this bed. You know, it's been sitting in pieces in various attics at various stages. And so I really want to restore that and put it back either in one of the state rooms or in one of the rooms upstairs so it can be on display to the public.
- [38:57]
Unnamed Interviewer
And you mentioned that you guys had more liveries than you knew you had. And you talk about this furniture that's been disassembled what is the sort of storage situation from hundreds of years of history? What is sort of kept and stored and. And how is it stored and.
- [39:15]
Lady Henrietta Spencer Churchill
Well, actually, funnily enough, there's not as much as you would think there would be, because I think we do tend to try and use things if we've got them. So there's not a huge amount stashed away. There's quite a lot of old clothes and costumes and things which are not really of much use to anybody. But in terms of furniture and things, there's not a lot. I mean, I think I've used everything that's more or less usable. We do have still fabrics and things to use, but often it's. What's good is to have some sort of template from which to work from, so, you know, you can get something reproduced.
- [39:53]
Unnamed Interviewer
And I'm curious, just because this is a topic that's come up in some other episodes I've done with splendid homes such as this. Are there any ghost stories?
- [40:06]
Lady Henrietta Spencer Churchill
Do you know? Blenheim is not a sort of ghosty place. I think I saw. I know I saw a ghost very soon after my father died. So it wasn't really a ghost, it was him. It was his spirit, basically, just whisking by and saying, you know, just carry on with the good work, you lot. You know, I'm watching over you. Because he was a stickler. He was an absolute stickler for detail and running things properly. But I have never seen a ghost at Blenheim, otherwise. No.
- [40:38]
Unnamed Interviewer
Well, even seeing one is more than I've ever. Is more than I've ever seen. Where did you see him?
- [40:43]
Lady Henrietta Spencer Churchill
It was funny because it was. We had an American friend visiting and he'd come over for tea and he was going to be coming back later that year to shoot. And we were just, me and my brother, we were giving him tea outside the pantry. It's a nice little area to go and sit and have an informal tea. And I disappeared and went to the bathroom. And the bathroom is located right outside my father's study, which is a beautiful panel room which nobody ever goes in. You know, it was his sort of sacrosanct space, and you only went in there if you were invited to go in there. And to this day, we haven't cleared it out since he's died and we have to. And as I came out of that bathroom, this figure whisked past me and I knew it was him. You know, he had a very willowy shape, very distinctly walk. And look, he went round back to the corridor where I was going. So I sort of took a big gasp of breath, went outside to look down the corridor. Nothing there. It was very weird.
- [41:51]
Unnamed Interviewer
Oh, gosh.
- [41:52]
Lady Henrietta Spencer Churchill
Very weird.
- [41:53]
Unnamed Interviewer
Wow. Okay. And if someone visited for the first time, what would your personal bit of advice be for a tourist?
- [42:03]
Lady Henrietta Spencer Churchill
I think you just want to take your time, you know, just don't try and rush it like a lot of the Chinese do. You know, it's a sort of tick box thing for them. They come, they go around with their. Just filming everything on their iPhone and then they go. But, you know, there's so much to see, whether it's the park, the gardens, various events we might have on at the time. You want to make a whole day of it and book your time, book your space and just enjoy it as a leisurely space because a lot of people would come and they wouldn't even necessarily know that Churchill was buried nearby. But, you know, it's walking distance, it's a lovely place to go. So. And at the moment, we always have something interesting on. At the moment we've got an exhibition called It's Icons of British Fashion. So various British designers are displaying history of their fashion enterprise in the staterooms. And in fact, it's really spectacular. You know, you are looking at the staterooms through a different view, but it doesn't really matter. They're just as wonderful if you had.
- [43:12]
Unnamed Interviewer
You know, a spare day and. Well, first of all, is Blenheim open to the public all year round or mostly year round?
- [43:20]
Lady Henrietta Spencer Churchill
Or is there a. Yeah, nearly every day. I mean, in some of the winter months, it's. It's not completely open or there's certain parts of it and there's often a lot of cleaning and restoration that goes on sort of January, February. But essentially it's open every day. If we. Sometimes we have to close for filming, we have, you know, to have quite a lot of filming that takes place there. And so just for safety reasons, it has to be closed. But pretty much everywhere, I think what's going to be, you know, we're trying to plan at the moment doing this roof restoration because it's going to be very disruptive not only to people not wanting to rent the place for commercial and private reasons because it's going to look pretty ugly with scaffolding around the whole center of the house going both sides, north to south and over the top. So what we're trying to configure now is perhaps having some sort of visitor attraction so that people can go, actually go up onto the roof onto the scaffolding and get these magnificent views and perhaps have a restaurant up there or something. Just so if we're going to all this effort having this scaffolding up for two years, you might as well make use of it and have a lovely visitors attraction.
- [44:37]
Unnamed Interviewer
And if it somehow for some reason were to be closed and you and you're run of the house for an afternoon and you wanted to just spend some time alone to your own thoughts, which spot in the house would you personally choose?
- [44:53]
Lady Henrietta Spencer Churchill
I love going on the roofs.
- [44:55]
Unnamed Interviewer
Oh.
- [44:56]
Lady Henrietta Spencer Churchill
Which you know, you're not allowed to do really. But I mean I can go there and you can go up there and people wouldn't necessarily know you're there. But you know, certainly as children we used to go up onto the roofs because.
- [45:09]
Unnamed Interviewer
Yeah, I'm sure you were forbidden for doing so.
- [45:12]
Lady Henrietta Spencer Churchill
We weren't really allowed to but in those days we didn't have. You didn't have health and safety issues like you do.
- [45:18]
Unnamed Interviewer
You fell off the roof. You fell off the roof.
- [45:19]
Lady Henrietta Spencer Churchill
Exactly. You know, that's your fault. So yes, I love going up on the roofs and just. And once it fascinates me as to how in those days someone like Sir John Bambra and Nicholas Hawksmoor they had the foresight to build these places and they knew where to put the chimneys, they knew where to put the drainage, you know, the pipe work for the rainwater pipes. And it's just mind blowing really. Without any proper plans and measurements and everything done by hand and horse drawn carriage. You know, probably today with all the sophisticated equipment that everybody has, they wouldn't get it right anyway.
- [45:59]
Unnamed Interviewer
And now that you sort of look back at the. I am assuming the book is completely complete now. Is there a favorite image or chapter in it now that you look back that you really.
- [46:13]
Lady Henrietta Spencer Churchill
I think inevitably for me it's the interiors because it does go into it probably made me actually focus more on areas of the house that I slightly took for granted, like the beautiful plaster work. I suppose I never took the tapestries for granted but it's just be sense of analyzing rooms and their details much more carefully than one normally would. So yes, definitely the interior section.
- [46:45]
Dan Rubenstein
Thank you to my guest Henrietta as well as to everyone at Rizzoli for making this episode happen. The editor of the Grand Tourist is Stan Hall. To keep this going, don't forget to visit our website and sign up for our newsletter the Grand Tourist curator@thegrandtourist.net and follow me on Instagram Ann Rubenstein. And don't forget to follow the grand tourists on Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to listen and leave us a rating or comment. Every little bit helps. Ta ta.