The Grand Tourist with Dan Rubinstein: Hans Ulrich Obrist - “Art Can Always Come to Us Through Different Channels”
Episode Overview
In this enlightening episode of The Grand Tourist with Dan Rubinstein, host Dan Rubenstein engages in a profound conversation with Hans Ulrich Obrist, the renowned Artistic Director of London’s Serpentine Gallery. Released on February 19, 2025, this episode delves deep into Obrist’s philosophies on art curation, his innovative projects, and his unwavering belief in making art accessible through diverse mediums.
1. Introduction to Hans Ulrich Obrist
Dan Rubenstein sets the stage by highlighting Obrist’s pivotal role in the art world. As the Artistic Director of the Serpentine Gallery since 2006, Obrist has been instrumental in redefining the curator’s role, moving it away from traditional academic confines towards a dynamic, interactive, and socially engaged profession.
Notable Quote:
Hans Ulrich Obrist (00:00): “I never wanted to instrumentalize art in a way which reflects an agenda which is not necessarily implicit in the artist and in the art. So that's why I always develop my exhibitions out of the dialogue with artists.”
2. Early Life and Artistic Awakening
Obrist reminisces about his upbringing in Weinfelden, Switzerland, emphasizing how living at the crossroads of Switzerland, Germany, and Austria fostered his early exposure to diverse cultures and art forms. His passion for language and aspiration to move to a major city like Paris or London laid the foundation for his future career in art curation.
Notable Quote:
Hans Ulrich Obrist (02:41): “I would never leave the house without my passport. Right. Because sort of that's how it is to live in a triangle of three countries.”
Obrist’s introduction to art was unconventional. With parents who seldom visited museums, his artistic interests were nurtured through everyday channels like art on Swiss railway timetables and innovative chocolate box designs by artists like Jean Pangolin.
3. The Genesis of a Curator
Obrist’s formative years were marked by an avid collection of art postcards and the creation of a “pocket museum” in his room. This early passion for curating miniature exhibitions foreshadowed his future endeavors.
Notable Quote:
Hans Ulrich Obrist (06:35): “I collected postcards throughout my teens. And basically art postcards of artworks. And I also installed somehow a pocket museum in my room.”
His proactive engagement with artists as a teenager, conducting studio visits and fostering relationships, underscores his innate drive to immerse himself in the art world from a young age.
4. Career Beginnings and Institutional Challenges
Obrist discusses his initial challenges in France, navigating the rigid academic systems prevalent in French art institutions. Despite not following the traditional path of studying art history, his diverse background and global experiences enabled him to carve a unique niche in the curatorial landscape.
Notable Quote:
Hans Ulrich Obrist (16:54): “I think it's the junction maker that describes what I do, because I make junctions between artworks in exhibitions, junctions between people, you know, institutions, between different audiences as well.”
His roles have often been pioneering, with institutions creating unique positions tailored to his innovative approach, such as “migratory curator” and “director of International projects” at the Serpentine.
5. The Serpentine Gallery and the Pavilion Project
A significant portion of the conversation centers on Obrist’s transformative work at the Serpentine Gallery. He elaborates on the Gallery’s evolution from a traditional art space to a multifaceted institution embracing art, architecture, design, technology, and ecology.
The Pavilion Project: Initiated in 2000, the Serpentine Pavilion has become a cornerstone of contemporary architecture, providing a platform for international architects to showcase experimental designs. Obrist highlights the project’s success in fostering diversity and inclusion within the architectural community.
Notable Quote:
Hans Ulrich Obrist (39:26): “We never want to stop experimenting. And so then it felt important to kind of use this launchpad because obviously because so many well-known architects had done a pavilion, the scheme became well-known and famous. And we realized that we can actually use it to enable younger architects to have more visibility.”
Under Obrist’s leadership, the Pavilion has transitioned from featuring established architects to becoming a launchpad for emerging talents, ensuring the continuous infusion of fresh perspectives in the architectural realm.
6. The Interview Project: Archiving Artistic Voices
Obrist introduces his Interview Project, an extensive archive of conversations with artists accumulated over nearly three decades. This initiative stems from sage advice by artists like Jonas Mekas to document meaningful dialogues, which Obrist embraced by audio and video recording his interactions.
Notable Quote:
Hans Ulrich Obrist (29:03): “It's about listening. It's a project about the importance of listening.”
The Interview Project serves as a contemporary counterpart to Vasari’s Lives of the Artists, capturing the voices and insights of today’s creative minds, thereby preserving the intangible heritage of modern art.
7. Redefining the Role of the Curator in the 21st Century
Obrist reflects on the evolving role of curators, emphasizing the necessity for institutions to adapt to contemporary challenges such as technological advancements and environmental crises. At the Serpentine, this has led to the creation of new departments focused on technology and ecology, ensuring the Gallery remains at the forefront of interdisciplinary dialogue.
Notable Quote:
Hans Ulrich Obrist (44:28): “When JG Ballard ... wanted to discuss what is a curator, and then he came up with his definition of the junction maker. I think the junction maker is a quite good definition of what I do.”
He advocates for curators as “junction makers,” facilitating connections between disparate art forms, disciplines, and audiences, thus fostering a more holistic and inclusive art ecosystem.
8. Embracing Technology and Video Games in Art
A forward-thinking advocate, Obrist explores the intersection of video games and art. Recognizing the pervasive influence of gaming across generations, he sees immense potential in integrating video games into art exhibitions to engage new audiences and redefine art experiences.
Notable Quote:
Hans Ulrich Obrist (51:16): “I think it's really fascinating to map this. Today we've done an exhibition called World Building... and then went to the Centre Pompidou in France in Metz and is now continuing to tour.”
He highlights projects like virtual exhibitions within platforms like Fortnite, which exponentially increase exposure and bridge the gap between traditional art spaces and digital gaming communities.
9. Personal Anecdotes and Relationships in the Art World
Obrist shares heartfelt memories, including his collaboration with the late Gaetano Pesce. He recounts their joint projects, such as unique chair designs and personalized books, showcasing the deep, personal connections that enrich his professional journey.
Notable Quote:
Hans Ulrich Obrist (53:47): “Life is beautiful, most beautiful, and one has to be able to know how to live it. That's the last thing he told me.”
These stories illuminate Obrist’s commitment to fostering meaningful relationships and championing individual artistic expressions.
10. Reflections on the Current Cultural Era
When queried about defining the current cultural era, Obrist acknowledges the complexity of the question but highlights the urgent need for art institutions to evolve in response to societal shifts, technological advancements, and environmental challenges. He underscores the importance of adaptability and proactive engagement in shaping the art world’s future.
Notable Quote:
Hans Ulrich Obrist (48:06): “We cannot just continue, you know, business as usual. We need to think about what is the time we are living in, you know, what is urgent.”
Conclusion
Hans Ulrich Obrist’s conversation with Dan Rubenstein offers a comprehensive glimpse into the mind of one of contemporary art’s most influential curators. His relentless pursuit of innovation, commitment to accessibility, and passion for fostering artistic dialogue underscore his pivotal role in shaping the modern art landscape. For listeners, this episode serves as both an inspiration and a testament to the transformative power of art when guided by visionary leadership.
Key Takeaways:
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Generosity in Curation: Obrist emphasizes the importance of sharing information and fostering dialogues rather than imposing agendas (00:00).
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Interdisciplinary Approach: The Serpentine Gallery’s evolution into an interdisciplinary space bridges art with architecture, design, technology, and ecology (32:27).
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Innovation through the Pavilion: The Serpentine Pavilion has successfully launched international and emerging architects, promoting diversity and experimentation in architecture (38:25).
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Archiving Artistic Voices: The Interview Project captures the essence of contemporary art through extensive recordings of artist conversations (29:03).
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Embracing New Mediums: Integrating video games and virtual platforms into art exhibitions opens up new avenues for audience engagement and accessibility (51:16).
Notable Quotes for Reference:
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On Curatorial Philosophy:
“Generosity should be somehow the medium of the curator.” — Hans Ulrich Obrist (00:00)
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On the Serpentine Gallery’s Mission:
“We believe that the Serpentine is art for all art forms and that it's for everyone.” — Hans Ulrich Obrist (32:37)
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On the Importance of Listening:
“It's a project about the importance of listening.” — Hans Ulrich Obrist (29:03)
This comprehensive summary encapsulates the essence of Hans Ulrich Obrist’s insights and contributions as discussed in The Grand Tourist with Dan Rubinstein. For a deeper understanding, listeners are encouraged to tune into the full episode available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or their preferred podcast platform.