← The Grand Tourist with Dan Rubinstein
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- [00:00]
Jean Georges von derichten
And most important that not many chefs do any restaurateur eat your own food. If you somebody create a plate, you create a plate or you put a plate together, you have to eat it from beginning to end to see what's missing. So a lot of people just test but it's important to eat your finish your plate and see what you know, exactly what's wrong or what to add, what to take away.
- [00:22]
Dan Rubenstein
Hi, I'm Dan Rubenstein and this is the Grand Tourist. I've been a design journalist for more than 20 years and this is my personalized guided tour through the worlds of fashion, art, architecture, food and travel. All the elements of a well lived life. And welcome to the first episode of season 13. It's late May here in New York and we're just recovering from all of the celebrations stemming from design week here. Not to mention the launch of our first ever print issue, which I'm happy to say is now available online@thegrandtourist.net our guest today is a towering figure in food and hospitality and continues to push the conversation about dining forward decade after decade, both in New York and around the globe. Chef Jean Georges von derichten As a master of running a restaurant, he currently has dozens. His food can be found everywhere from Las Vegas and Kyoto to Marrakech and Nashville. While his training and upbringing was traditional to the core, over time this French chef became known for his ability to to adapt his craft to the shifting tastes of the day. From ingredient choices to restaurant concepts. From his recent sprawling culinary destination, the Tin Building in Manhattan's South Street Seaport, to the ever popular vegetarian restaurant abcv. And those are just two examples in New York alone. While he's opened up more than 100 restaurants in his day, his first in New York, Jojo on the Upper east side that opened in 1991, is still going strong today. He's also known for taking a keen interest similar to other chef guests of the podcast, in all aspects of a new restaurant, from the menus and signage to the interiors and architecture. His latest concept is the 49 story Miami Tropic, a residential concept in the city's design district with interiors by firm Jabel Pusherberg, its two founders. Also a recent guest of the Grand Tourist with architecture by firm Architectonica. The amenity packed space has everything from a private restaurant on the pool level to a juice bar, squash court and even a podcast recording studio. Maybe you need to find out if any one bedrooms are available. I caught up with chef Von Durichten from his Offices in New York to chat about his early start as a bad kid without much direction. What it was like serving food in the French military, what he learned about the picky New York eater, how the art of running a restaurant has changed in the post pandemic era and more.
- [02:53]
Unnamed Interviewer
You grew up near Strasbourg and a legendary part of your biography is that your mother, your grandmother used to cook for the employees in your family's business. That I believe was in coal, correct?
- [03:05]
Jean Georges von derichten
That's correct. Yeah.
- [03:06]
Unnamed Interviewer
Tell me about this business and what those meals were like. What kind of coal business was it?
- [03:11]
Jean Georges von derichten
First of all, I mean it was the coal came, you know, the. Through the barges from northern France from. From different mines at the time. You know, 50s, 60s, all the way to I would say early 70s. It was all coal heating. So the coal came from barges to the canal all the way to. It's the suburb of Strasbourg. It's a little town called. Impossible to pronounce like my last name. Ilkirch Grafenstaden. Ah, that's the name of the. Of the town on so back in the days my grandfather was. I mean the barge were. The boat were trailed by horses in the barge to bring the coal from the north to the north of France to you know, in France you have all the canals that was the way to bring merchandise and to coal and etc. So my great grandfather had the boat was stuck in the ice and he could move and he stayed in that village and kind of claim the land and distribute the coal to the village on that's where the house is. Is still there since 1870. So when I grew up it was like the back of the house was all mountain of coals.
- [04:20]
Unnamed Interviewer
And what did you. What was a typical lunch, let's say.
- [04:23]
Jean Georges von derichten
I mean could it be, you know, a pig of a piece of roast pork with a cabbage and potato, lots of potatoes on, you know or chicken or a stew and you know, all kind of mostly meat. Fish was on only once a day, once a week on Friday. Well I guess good Catholics, good Catholic. It's a, you know, fish on Friday, no meat. So it's all. But mostly pork. Mostly pork sausages, pork roast, pork shoulder, sauerkraut bake off. I mean all the assassination staple. You know, that's winter time and then the summertime was a little lighter but mostly potato. The potato, the warm potato becoming a potato salad. The summertime. But it was a. It was like a mini restaurants at home, you know, because feeding 45, 40 people it's like yeah.
- [05:12]
Unnamed Interviewer
Every day two service a day, I guess, you know, lunch. Yeah, it was like a major operation.
- [05:17]
Jean Georges von derichten
That's right. That's right. So it was my grandmother, my mother, my aunt. There was like three, four people cooking every day for all the crowd, all of the workers and the family and eating all, you know, mostly together.
- [05:33]
Unnamed Interviewer
And if I, if I were to get a time machine and go back in time and visit you as a young man when you were around 16, 17, like what, what would, who, how would you describe this sort of young Jean Georges?
- [05:49]
Jean Georges von derichten
Young Jean Georges was a little delicate, a little crazy. A little. And always had a bike, had a slingshots. I was like. They call me the nickname Georgiou the Terror. So it was a little bit of a, you know, you know, you're a bad kid. Bad kid.
- [06:03]
Unnamed Interviewer
Okay.
- [06:03]
Jean Georges von derichten
You know a lot. Oh yeah, oh yeah. So if something went wrong to, you know, amongst the sister, brother, the cousin or whatever around there was. They always punched at me and it was me.
- [06:16]
Unnamed Interviewer
Were you, were you good at school? Were you like a good student?
- [06:19]
Jean Georges von derichten
Absolutely not. So I hated school. I hated to, you know, to be. I'm a. I was an odd log act, but a little kid, you know.
- [06:27]
Unnamed Interviewer
Yeah. And there was an article in the Times where you talk about a trip to a restaurant when you were 16 that sort of changed your life and I think you eventually wind up working there. Can you take me back to that, to that time and to that restaurant?
- [06:40]
Jean Georges von derichten
Yeah, totally. I mean when. So I started at age early 60, I mean 15, September I was still 15 because next month I'm turning 68. I started the engineer school and they told me out in January because I was not there. I was, it was like probably three miles from my house and I never, I missed every class, everything. And after a few parents reunion, they decided to cut me loose because I was a, you know, bad example for everybody. On so my father wouldn't talk to me for three months on for my birthday. They felt bad and they, they said okay, we took him to, we're going to take him to a place, maybe he get inspired by something else. But they had no idea. So they took me, was just, you know, because the family was so big we would never go to a restaurant. We talk about 1973. So we never went to restaurants. It was mostly, mostly eating at home, breakfast, lunch or dinner. So the day decided to take me to a restaurant and it was a great one, was a three star Michelin restaurant. Pretty nice birthday for a 16 year old on this was a revelation for me because I Was like, I saw the ballet of the waiters, the service, the food, the plating, you know, for us was like, we never played with food at home. It was all big pot on the table. You serve yourself. So going to a place where everything is, like, immaculate and portioned and precise. And I was like, wow. I couldn't believe that you could do. You could do a business out of a career, out of food. For me, food was just a home. Everybody served themselves family style. And it was an art at the time. You know, 1973, food was many Michelin star restaurants around, but we never went to. So at one point, the chef come to the table and said to my dad, My father said to me, he asked for the rose mill. I couldn't believe the guy was coming with the big hat and all in white and clean, and. And he said, how was dinner? And then my father said, oh, it was the best. And they saw my eyes, like, you know, like, wow, opening it up. So at one point, my father said to him, I said, listen, my son is good for nothing. If you look for somebody to wash dishes as a joke, it's free. And actually, the chef answer we're looking for apprentice on. I did a test two weeks after I went to the kitchen, and my father dropped me off and I did a test. I spent the whole day there. I was, like, running around asking everybody what they need, what the. And I guess they liked me because I started. I started there three months after when it was the beginning of my career in a restaurant business as a chef.
- [08:58]
Unnamed Interviewer
And had. Did you have any experience like cooking? Did you cook with the family at all when you were a kid? Did they. Were you ever recruited to help out in any way, or is this totally new for you at the time?
- [09:07]
Jean Georges von derichten
No, it was kind of. I was comfortable with it because, you know, life in my house was around the kitchen. So peeling carrots, taking peas out of the shell, or even plugging a chicken was part of the routine every day. You know, now chicken comes in a bag. At the time, we had to, you know, take the feathers off.
- [09:25]
Unnamed Interviewer
And. And how was the apprenticeship? What was it like?
- [09:28]
Jean Georges von derichten
I never washed dishes.
- [09:30]
Unnamed Interviewer
Okay.
- [09:30]
Jean Georges von derichten
So, you know, it was like. They really started me. It was great because they started me. They were very smart. The chef was very smart. He started me in a pastry because it's very, you know, it's. A pastry is an exact science. So you measure everything, you know, otherwise it doesn't work. If you. If you make a souffle or you don't have the Proper measurement or a simple vanilla ice cream. You have to really measure everything to. It's 1 quart of milk, 200 gram of sugar, 12 yolks, 3 vanilla beans, etc. So if you don't measure it, that's. That thing doesn't work on. So. So the apprentice all started in pastry to really learn how to master the scale on it. Stay with me until today because all our recipes are very precise and very to the gram. Exactly like pastry. And I think today to be consistent, you have to put everything on a scale. You know, otherwise everybody. So everybody's ant of that dish. So.
- [10:24]
Unnamed Interviewer
Yeah. No, especially with. Considering how many restaurants you're. You're in charge of.
- [10:27]
Jean Georges von derichten
Exactly. So from pastry I went to the hotline and I went to. I mean g. I learned everything. It was there for two and a half years. Then I went to the army on a boat. I think it's one of your question.
- [10:39]
Unnamed Interviewer
So did you join the army at the time? Did you. Were you. Were you joined the army or were a civilian employee?
- [10:46]
Jean Georges von derichten
At the time, it was mandatory to do a one year of army in France. I mean, they stopped it probably 20 years ago. But at the time you had to maybe 30 years ago. At the time you had to do one year. So I wanted to get rid of. Of it early. So I was 19 and a half. And I said, okay, let's. Let's get out of the. Let's do the army first. So I decided to. I mean, they give you a choice if you want to be. I mean, the chef wanted to send me to the Elysees in Paris because he knew the chef was cooking for the president. And I said, I don't want to be stuck in a kitchen in Paris. I want to see something. So when. So I choose to go to the navy. When I was on a boat for like a year, I cooked for one. One captain and two officers. Just three people.
- [11:30]
Unnamed Interviewer
Oh, okay.
- [11:31]
Jean Georges von derichten
So it was wonderful.
- [11:32]
Unnamed Interviewer
You weren't doing, you weren't doing the, the cooking for everyone?
- [11:35]
Jean Georges von derichten
No, no. There was a kitchen. There was a kitchen. So I was like, I was lucky that I guess with my. The three star apprenticeship they put me in with the officer onto one captain, two officers. I cooked for the three people for four years, which was kind of a bu. Become lazy. You know, there's nothing to do.
- [11:53]
Unnamed Interviewer
And where, where, where was, where did the boat go? Like, where did it go?
- [11:55]
Jean Georges von derichten
So the boat was based in Brittany, in Brest, when. Then we went to Portugal, went to Lisbon, went to the Azores, the island, went to Morocco, Casablanca. We went to all the way up north to Hamburg, to Amsterdam, Porthmuth in England. So we traveled around. The boat was an anti submarine. So I did nothing. I never shot a gun. And if it would be a war, I was useless. Had a couple knives in the kitchen. That's all I had.
- [12:31]
Unnamed Interviewer
But the captains were very well. The captain was very well fed and very happy.
- [12:34]
Jean Georges von derichten
So hey, they were happy for you. Yeah. And then I came back to. Then after that I came back to. To my apprenticeship for six months because I needed to go back to the. The army teach me was really to. To drink, to smoke, to, you know, things that you. I wasn't doing on a daily basis, but you had to kill the day.
- [12:54]
Unnamed Interviewer
Yeah. Wow, that must be.
- [12:56]
Jean Georges von derichten
I was. It was great for me because I was experimenting a lot of. A lot of things. You know, each time I arrived in Morocco, I went to the market, get some spices. When I went to Portugal, the beautiful seafood. So it was. It gave me a little bit of a test for traveling on going around the world.
- [13:13]
Dan Rubenstein
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- [14:38]
Unnamed Interviewer
And one of your early mentors was Paul Boucuse, who is of course one of the main forces behind nouvelle cuisine. And he's a major figure in the history of French cooking. And so many people worked for him or crossed paths with him, especially the sort of French chefs that came to eventually found their way to New York. Can you tell me a little bit about him as a person and what you learned from him.
- [15:01]
Jean Georges von derichten
Oh, yeah, it was. I mean, after Le Begelle, I went to Louis Utier first and then I went to Bocuse. Yeah, he was a personality, you know, very. I mean, I was. I was still a comed and they put me a shovel party. So I was a. I arrived there as I was doing the sea bass on crude. I was doing all the, you know, the seafood. But he was very. He was a great mantra because he. He went to the market every morning, took another apprentice, I mean, Komi with him. So every other day you had to go with somebody else with. He was driving the van, going to the market. He was flipping like 4 case of tomato on the floor. Only you had to pick one perfectly ripe. So I was comfortable because ingredients, you know, at home, my mother was always like, going to the market. Don't take me on. So I know exactly what a. A ripe tomato was and, you know, a good potato and with all germs on it. And so. So it took me to the market a lot. So I learned a lot of. About, you know, when you go to wizard chefs, you really. When you close by, you sitting next to him in a. In a van going to the market, you. He talks non stop. He. So you learn a lot of things this way. And I mean, the first thing, when I arrived there, I thought it was a prank. I arrived there checking my. My room. They asked me to get some nettles. I said, I never cooked with nettles before. So I went along the. I said, where you get the nettles? I said, oh, they grow wild along the. So but he wants only the. The tip. The. You know, we have nettles, the last two tips on top, like basil, you know, the tender one, the pale green. So I was like, this is a joke. They sent me outside, you know, on the side of the river to pick up nettles, tips of the nettles. I was like, all right. I do it. You know, when you're in a practice, I mean, I call me. You have to do whatever they say. Oui, chef. Yes, chef. So I went there, pick up all the nettles on a. Actually they were using it in a soup, but it was like side of the road between the wood on the. On the river. I was like picking nettles. Wow.
- [16:53]
Unnamed Interviewer
Okay.
- [16:54]
Jean Georges von derichten
For two hours.
- [16:55]
Unnamed Interviewer
Oh, God. Did you, did you. Do you. Do you use nettles ever to this day?
- [16:59]
Jean Georges von derichten
I did once. You know, I repeated a soup from there as A. As an homage. And it's very tasty. So, you know, each time you go to a different region, come from Alsace, go to southern France, you go to Lyon, you learn different ingredients, different style of cooking. And, you know, and every chef has a. Every mentor had a different style. Even taking a simple apple. When I was an apprentice, I was turning the apple, peeling the apple around the. The pillar, right.
- [17:25]
Unnamed Interviewer
Like in a. In a spiral.
- [17:26]
Jean Georges von derichten
In a spiral. When I went to the south of France, they wanted me to peel the apple this way. I was like, okay, up and down instead. Okay, yeah, yeah. So it's like, so every detail like that. Every chef has his own pattern on his own way of treating vegetables or fish or, you know, it was a different side. But Pulpu was a different style because it was a lot of prep to do. You know, it was a busy restaurant, and, I mean, great memories of ingredients. His sauces were very Lyonese, you know, Fenant Point, very rich, but delicious. You know, it's just a different style. Different style.
- [18:03]
Unnamed Interviewer
And during your early years, you eventually found yourself in Asia and before you came to New York, and when you did come to New York, you opened Lafayette, which was a restaurant at the Swiss Hotel, right?
- [18:14]
Jean Georges von derichten
Yeah.
- [18:15]
Unnamed Interviewer
For one of your mentors, Louis.
- [18:18]
Dan Rubenstein
Yeah.
- [18:19]
Unnamed Interviewer
And I found your early review in the New York Times, which was where you were mentioned, a glowing review back in the day with such an important.
- [18:28]
Dan Rubenstein
No photos.
- [18:29]
Unnamed Interviewer
Of course, back then, photos were difficult to get. Was that your first, like, big break, you think?
- [18:34]
Jean Georges von derichten
Yeah, totally. I mean, after Uche called me back, he said to me, I was in after Bokuza, I went to Germany to another three star. So I did four different three stars. I went to Munich. And then he called me up, he said, listen, I got a consultant gig in Bangkok. I want you to be the chef. But I was 23. I'd never been a chef. So I skipped the sous chef role. I went from chef the party to chef. I was like, my God, this is not gonna work. But after him calling me every day for two months, I say, okay, you know what? I go, he looks like he wants me there. He trusts me. And I go. So I spent two years in Bangkok, Singapore, Hong Kong, Osaka, London, Geneva. And then I came to New York, Boston first 85 on 86 in New York. Yeah. When that review come out, it was. It changed my life. You know, CNN was in the kitchen the next day first, you know, youngest four star chef in town. And I was 29.
- [19:30]
Unnamed Interviewer
Wow, that's amazing. What was New York for? Like, for you this is like mid-80s. So like what were, you know, you, you, you know, obviously you French, but you also had lived in Asia for, for many years. And coming to New York back then in the 80s was such a different town, right Than it is today. What was your impression of New York when you moved here?
- [19:48]
Jean Georges von derichten
Oh, it was, it was pretty amazing. I mean, you know, the only. After five years in Asia, the only place I was comfortable was Chinatown because you went to the, you know, square market. There was a couple apples and potatoes. There was nothing you still to see today. So the only place where you had lots of ingredients on things I was comfortable with ginger, galanga, lemongrass. Coming from Asia on all beautiful product was Chinatown. You know, you have all this live fish and shrimp. And so Chinatown was my. The first six months was my to go place. You know, it was interesting because everything was flown in from California. The vegetables, there was no. The farmers that were not growing things in New York yet only was coming from France as well from. So it was very different than today.
- [20:37]
Unnamed Interviewer
Did you enjoy living in New York in the early days?
- [20:39]
Jean Georges von derichten
Yeah, I loved it right away. You know, when you land in New York, you know, you, a lot of people don't like it, but I think when you. It was always a dream to come to New York. And arriving in New York for me was like, wow, you know, the, the energy, the, the people only was a perfect timing for me. So somehow because you, you know, there was all revolution of food in New York happening In the late 80s, you know, between the magazine, the New York Times, the, The whole movement of, you know, I mean, Daniel Bolu was already here. The, the Tom Colicchio, the Thomas Keller were not only in the restaurant, but there were chefs somewhere like me or like Daniel, like all the, you know, David Boule, all, all the chefs. So I feel it was a whole revolution at the time of, of, of cuisine in New York. So I thought it was a perfect timing. So, so first review from the New York Times was we got three star first in 86 when I arrived three months after we opened from Brian Miller. And then the restaurant was not doing that well, you know, because of the food we were doing was very French. It was very, lots of cream butter on the speed was not there. You know, I thought it was in France. You know, people eating two hours for lunch, three hours for dinner only was the opposite, you know. And then I decided the, the restaurant, the Swiss Hotel, was owned by Nestle on Swissair. Well, you know, they gave me a little grief from the beginning. Like, oh, my God, we're losing money. This is not working. So I decided to really change the way I cook. And, you know, I call uche, I say, listen, we. We can do this food here. It's too, too rich. Takes too much time. People have 45 minutes, 50 minutes for lunch. So I need to. So I start to get inspired by, you know, the home cooking of my mom. We did some spit roast chicken. I got a rotisserie, but always bringing a little bit of a. Spices on, a little. Little bit of a. The sauce I was having with the chicken. Add a little bit of a tamarind in there. So I start to do something comfortable, fast, a little easier. Finding the best ingredients at the time was, like, amazing. You can find Avalos Vander coming. This lady I met in Boston in Green Benches, she was sending me halibuts on sea urchin, live scallop. And I said, I really need to adjust my. Make it more simple, make it much faster for lunch. In New York, it goes fast. People talk. A month after, the restaurant was packed for lunch, packed for dinner, and I decided to use more vegetable juices, vinaigrettes, and flavored oil. And then a year after that, the Times came back. New York Times by Milan said, there's a little revolution going in this kitchen. On Lago, I'm bigger, lucky to give me four star. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was three first, then I got four. That was in 88.
- [23:37]
Unnamed Interviewer
And what was the pitch to the book people? Was it like, you know, I'm a French chef. I learned that, you know, heavy, traditional stuff may not be very complex things may not be right for American market, but I've learned how to simplify the spirit of French cuisine into something more simple. Is that. Was that the pitch that you.
- [23:54]
Jean Georges von derichten
Yeah, that was a pitch on, you know, on top of it, it was more like adding some Asian. My Asian experience, five years on, testing ginger every day, chilies, etc. To spice up the food a little bit on. And that's what made the difference. On. They really loved it. On. They love the. The. The building blocks of the flavor oil, the broth, the vinaigrettes, you know, so there was a whole different style of cooking.
- [24:19]
Unnamed Interviewer
Did it sell?
- [24:20]
Jean Georges von derichten
Did.
- [24:20]
Unnamed Interviewer
Were you happy with the results of the book?
- [24:21]
Jean Georges von derichten
Oh, yeah, it was great. Was great. It was a. It was Simon and Schuster at the time. I don't know.
- [24:26]
Unnamed Interviewer
Okay.
- [24:26]
Jean Georges von derichten
If you remember this company that's. It exists.
- [24:30]
Unnamed Interviewer
Yeah, yeah, totally. And the following year came Jojo, I think your first restaurant, your own restaurant in the city. Is that right?
- [24:38]
Jean Georges von derichten
That's correct. So after five years of Lafayette, I decided to, you know, To. To open my. I say, you know, I've been cooking now for 15 years. I need to be on the other side. You know, I want. I was ready to. I got a lot of offers to be a chef here or chef there. And I said, you know, if I. If I move from Afayette, where I made my name in New York, is really. I have to do my own. And I find this little place called. I was walking on with a. I was driving with a bicycle looking for. For things. And I saw this sign in front of JoJo for rent. But the restaurant was still operating. It was called Bar du Tear at the time. Kind of a bistro upstairs, kind of got some music, live music at night. So I went in there. Look, look around. I've had a drink. And I called the numbers. I remember Johnson Realty. I call the number and they say, listen, the. The. The owner is there now. Hasn't pays rent for nine months on. If you give me $10,000 tomorrow, it's yours. That was a rent at the time. I said, okay, but I need a. I need to find a partner. And I found Fitz Suarez, who was a great customer of Lafayette. He came in like 50 times. Each time he came in, he gave me his card. I have like 50 cards of his. If you. He's a. You know, he produced Michael Jackson. He produced. He had a advertising company. He produced a different video. Video clip at a time. So he came with customer every day, and they say, one day you want to open your business, you. You call me on. I call him up, I say, listen, I think I found a place. I want to open my own business. I said, okay, meet me tomorrow with a business plan.
- [26:21]
Unnamed Interviewer
Wow. And so what was it? Obviously, the restaurant was a big success and lasted. Lasted, you know, quite a long time. Why do you still open? Why? That's what I mean. That's what.
- [26:33]
Jean Georges von derichten
When you open a restaurant in New York, you have to be. You have to be in touch with your zip code on a field. JoJo was a perfect timing, you know, was 91 was the first goal. I signed the lease today. First Gulf War started. I think that was like January 25th or something. 91 on, you know, that year, 250 restaurant closed down in the city. So was a kind of an economic crisis. There was the war starting in, you know, the Gulf War on. I thought it was the right time to. So I was doing my food. I like a Little bit of the inspired. I mean, what I did, I laugh at, but for half the price. I say this is time. This is a bistro setting. I think It's a neighborhood 64 between Lakes and Third. I say there's a lot of people living around here looking for, you know, a simple. Maybe not necessarily bistro food, but, you know, simpler food, a good price on Eagle. Packed right away. It was a busy. Right away, you know, so.
- [27:34]
Unnamed Interviewer
And you do. I mean, are you still in touch with that sort of zip code mentality even today? Like, to get it to last this long? It must have evolved over time, right?
- [27:44]
Jean Georges von derichten
Every restaurant we open is. Is in touch with the zip code. Well, it's funny, we just opened last year 425, which is on 56 on Park. It was a Z zip code and Lafayette. So it was very comfortable to open in the same area on. Because you know what it is? It's all. It's all business for lunch, you know, from Park Avenue. On nighttime, you're close enough from Upper east side that people who live around there come. Come as well. And only worked. But this one was a little scary because September, not last year, but the year before, before we opened. We opened in December 23, the streets were empty, Nobody was in the offices. So I was a little nervous about it for a minute. But then after we opened, people can start to come back to the office, and things were good. So for me, it's very important when you do a business, especially in New York, is to be in touch with your zip code.
- [28:34]
Unnamed Interviewer
And, you know, you've. You've opened up, I think, more than 50 restaurants at this point in your career. Is that right?
- [28:39]
Jean Georges von derichten
Well, more than that, I think. I mean, right now we have a. We have a. Yeah, we have 62, but we. We open as well, a series of restaurants for Starwood. Probably like 25 of them. So probably on 100.
- [28:53]
Unnamed Interviewer
If I were to round up all of the young chefs you've. That have ever come through your kitchen and said, okay, everybody, describe to me, you know, his kitchen. What would they say? What would. If someone who's worked in 10 kitchens, but they've all. The one thing they all have in common is they've worked in your kitchen. What would they say is the sort of the spirit of yours that makes it unique?
- [29:14]
Jean Georges von derichten
They would say. They always say, I think keep it clean and then follow the recipe. I mean, everything has to be.
- [29:22]
Unnamed Interviewer
What does that mean? You know, I mean, like, literally clean.
- [29:26]
Jean Georges von derichten
I always say to my chefs, you cook the way you Look. So if you have somebody who has stained on his jacket from top to bottom, his plates can be messy. I think you have to be hygien is very important I think in the kitchen and I learned that from a young age and I try to teach that to the new guys on the new team that we have. So cleanness is really important. I think number two is probably follow the recipe. If you have any idea or any changes, I'm open to try anything. But you know, once we put a menu together, it's about consistency. Like I said before on number trees get the best ingredient possible. The sourcing of the. Of the food is so important other than the three ingredients of success. It's very simple. I would say probably sourcing the ingredients, follow the recipe, keep everything clean, unsanitized. But sourcing the ingredients is number one. You know, on. So we. We buy probably from in square market in all the restaurants New York from May to October, 90% of it so locally sourced on very. When you open a scallop live in the morning onion. You cook it at lunch or dinner. It's everyday fresh. So we try to use a lot of wild seafood. Try to, you know, if you use farm things like chicken, mostly organic. So but sourcing, I think they would say there's three things sourcing the ingredients.
- [30:45]
Unnamed Interviewer
What is your approach to sourcing ingredients that might be different from anybody else that fixates on. On ingredients?
- [30:51]
Jean Georges von derichten
I mean I was lucky to. To arrive in the mid-80s, like 86 because we. I'm using the same seafood supplier. We have so many men getting lobster for us on scallop on cod, uni on. She. She only works with three boats. So she only she can take more customers. So I was lucky to meet people like that. So I remember farmers from Onion Square coming with us seed catalogs and say what you want me to grow for you? I said the entire catalog. That's why today I think we were many chefs, you know, pushing that on now to go to the market. You have six different color carrots, five kinds of beets. You have, you have things from, you know, well, amazing on the soil Upstate New York, a lot of things are grown in black dirt. You know, there's those dry lakes. There's a lot of, you know, we're working with. There's a farm al farm in Square. They. They took a land where it's an old dried out lake. They poured it right out 300 years ago. But the soil is full of minerals and it's pretty amazing. It makes a big Difference. So you know, sourcing the, the best chicken, the best. It's all about that. You know, for me the, and I think the, it shows enough food and that's a, that's, I think the longevity of a restaurant. It's really to be consistent not only with the recipe but with the. You test a carrot at abcv, it's, it tastes like a carrot. You know, on. We know where he grows, we know how his stores and how he's you know, from organic seeds on, et cetera, et cetera. So. And it's a simple business. Good food, good service, it works.
- [32:28]
Unnamed Interviewer
Yeah.
- [32:28]
Jean Georges von derichten
On being touched with your zip code, that's probably.
- [32:31]
Unnamed Interviewer
Oh well that's good. I mean you make it look like it's not that simple, which is a gift. You, you told Food and Wine magazine once that if you had your way, you could open a restaurant every month. And now that we know you've done at least 100 restaurants in your day, what do you think is aside from knowing the zip code, like when you're really like building one and opening one, do you enjoy that process? I mean, is that like it's the.
- [32:57]
Jean Georges von derichten
Best, you know, it's the best. It's like, you know, when I was a kid I wanted to be, I mean I never know I'm going to be a chef but I was always fascinated by architectural, the design. So I'm kind of a first headed designer. So when we build a restaurant, you know, we work with like people like Yabu Pusherberg, Christian Lierre, Thomas Johansson, Richard Meyer. I mean we work with Farangiri, Norman Foster, we work with amazing architect on. So building a restaurant is the most exciting because when you walk through the plans, every detail of the chairs, the seats, the table, the tableware, whatever you touch. And so lighting my best friend is, he's a lighting designer from Observatoire, Herbe Descott. You know, we met 30 years ago. He lit the Mona Lisa as his school project. So if you can make a 300 old lady look good, he can lead a restaurant, you know. So probably the most exciting is designing it, working with this amazing designer architect. And when you open the first month, it's very exciting after that the hardest part is to be to keep it to my t. Maintaining the consistency, maintaining the business, maintaining the, you know, make everybody happy. Make sure every, it's. It's very hard to between a customer, the staff and the thing. So for me, my dream would be to open a restaurant. And here's a key, keep it going for the next 20 years.
- [34:12]
Unnamed Interviewer
I'm sure you could probably build a business out of that, couldn't you? Like I open them and then you have to deal with it.
- [34:18]
Jean Georges von derichten
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So which we do now a little bit if you want. I mean the one in New York with all the restaurants we have in New York, the 22 we, we operate, run, you know, on being involved in every aspect. Payroll, labor, cost. So and then we take this know how and we try to spread it out around the world. In Shanghai, we have tourists on Tokyo, Kyoto, Singapore. So we don't own those press on. We. It's, I don't like to call it license, but they're more like, you know, we, we, we design it with them. We, we set it up, we give them the know how and then they run it for us, you know, so that's a, I like that part.
- [34:58]
Unnamed Interviewer
And you know, you've had such an impact on not just dining in general, but the New York scene and the way that people what they desire and being in touch with that zip code. If a young chef came to one of your restaurants sort of with a suitcase here, maybe they're from France and they're here as an apprentice. Like, what would you teach them about, about that New York clientele that is unique here than, than anywhere else?
- [35:24]
Jean Georges von derichten
I mean, you know, they're like in every big city. They're frequent, they're here one day, they're looking for the hot new place, the hot new dishes and. But then inside them they're looking for something consistent too. You know, we still have some customer. Jojo have been there from the beginning. We are casamo. Come on. So you have the new one that you have to, you have to create. I always say that to my managers. I say on, on because they want, they don't want touch with the customer. So I was, don't just pamper the customer I created in this restaurant, but create some new ones. You know, pamper them. Make sure you, you know, you, they remember you. They remember one thing of the restaurants. It's about experiences. You know, is it a casual restaurant? Is it a high end result? Whatever we do is, you know, people have to remember something to make them. We have to create cravings to make people come back. So whatever you do, it has to be, has to be impactful, you know, on every level. Is it a sandwich or an egg for breakfast?
- [36:20]
Unnamed Interviewer
And, and, and speaking of cravings, one of my favorite restaurants in New York is abcv, which is your vegetarian restaurant not too far from here. I still kind of Every once in a while I think about a. I think the roast cauliflower thing. I credit to you for becoming a little bit of a. Of a. Of a very popular dish popping up in vegetarian restaurants all over the place. But it was seen as kind of risky at the time. Do you. Did you get any pushback back then or what was those initial conversations like to do something like ABCV?
- [36:52]
Jean Georges von derichten
You know, we opened, we opened ABC Kitchen about 12 years ago. Then we did cusi now and everything. But even ABCV was always. Because of the proximity of the market, it was always vegetable driven. You know, lots of salad, lots of pizza with vegetables, lots of, you know, pasta with vegetables. It was always. We don't have. We only have a five proteins on the menu. The rest of vegetables. On my popular demand, when, when that space open up, people say you should open a vegetable Italian restaurant. But I said, okay, let's do it on with pollute call from abc. We did a abcv. It was all about, you know, food as medicine, the whole thing. But I was very nervous. So we, we started open only for breakfast on lunch when I was so scared that is not going to work for dinner that say let's open lunch. So for the first four months of the. Of abcv, we did breakfast on lunch because I know people would have the avocado toast, they would have the, you know, the lunch, the salads, the thing. And eventually maybe the lady would bring the men at night, you know, with them or et cetera, et cetera. So we were, we don't open four months after we decided to open at night. Time only was a little timid. Lunch was always busy, breakfast was busy. And then he picked up a night as well. You know, I think the vegetable forward was. It's the future, I think of food for sure. You know, also we find an amazing chef. Neil Harden is really the one of great talents. That's another thing about when you open a restaurant is really to find a talent to be running a place who be breathing it, living it every day. Because I like to start something but then I had to give it a. To somebody else to continue where we started. So you have to find the right person who has the right mind, the right taste, the right, you know. So Neil Harden, you, I think is the best person for the. He was the best person for the job. He worked for Pure Food and Wine for a little bit. On any. I think he opened a restaurant in a vegetable restaurant in Brooklyn. And then we cross a path and.
- [38:52]
Unnamed Interviewer
It was a perfect timing and you Know, with a. Which a vegetarian restaurant did it, do you think if someone came to you and said, oh, I have a hotel and I want to open up a vegetarian place, or, you know, would you say, would you be more apt to do it now? Or is it more challenging to create a really, you know, it's vegetarian. Seems like it would be simpler, but actually it's probably more complex. You need even more amazing ingredients, and you can't rely on meat and things like that.
- [39:24]
Jean Georges von derichten
Yeah, yeah. But, you know, we use a lot of fermentation. We use a lot of spices as well. I mean, I think if you eat, when you eat abcv, you don't miss any of the protein that you would have in elsewhere. You know, it's so flavorful. Even that cauliflower you talk about roasted whole with that turmeric emulsion on the. All the condiments. I mean, you don't miss a bit when it comes to, you know, you have to try this. When you have a new avocado toast with grated pistachio on top, it's unbelievable on some Meyer lemon. So I think when you create flavors, is it for a piece of meat, piece of fish or vegetable, it should be equally flavorful. You know, we're not talking about just like steamed vegetable with a little bit of a drizzle of olive oil and sea salt. So this is like really, every dish has a very complex transformation. Exactly how we would treat a steak on a piece of cod or anything like it. You know, I always say to my chefs there, it's like it takes two years to grow a steak. It takes two weeks to grow a radish. So you can see the energy, the. How much it takes to, you know, so on myself, I don't eat meat that much often. You know, probably twice a month.
- [40:35]
Unnamed Interviewer
Oh, okay.
- [40:36]
Jean Georges von derichten
I'm always been.
- [40:37]
Unnamed Interviewer
Because when did that start?
- [40:40]
Jean Georges von derichten
When I grew up, okay, Meat was expensive. Trust me. There was more potato on the table on cabbage than. Than the roast pork. So it was always. We were always eating like 60, 70% of vegetables, 30% of the of meat. You know, little slice of pork, lots of cabbage, potato and whatever it is, leeks and all kind of the turnip. So vegetable was always a big part of my diet when I grew up because meat was expensive. You know, it makes sense, you know, this thing when it came to America, the having a 25 ounce steak on three spring beans was like, shocking to me.
- [41:23]
Unnamed Interviewer
Is there any. I'm curious, is there any ingredient after all of these years that maybe you kind of like, hey, you know, I just can't find this ingredient in New York the way that I could back home in France. This is something that just like after all these years you're just sort of like yeah, you just can't get good know rudabag or like whatever it is.
- [41:43]
Jean Georges von derichten
That was true about 15, 20 years ago, not anymore. I think you find really the, all the artisans, even the cheeses in America are fantastic. You know the butter from Vermont, I mean, you know, I mean things are a bit different because the terroir is, is different. You know, when you, even when you go to Madaz, to Provence, to, to Britain, you have different terroir, different things taste different. So the terroir in upset New York is different. But, but you find everything now, you know, from the, from the milk fed pig to the. I mean you find every single thing. I don't see one area now that you know even more so I think they, they grow wasabi now in upstate New York and in California. So you have a lot of, you know, I mean look at the wagyu beef. All those ingredients are, you know, the milk. I mean, you know, I mean a few things I did found when I was. I remember when I was an apprentice in 73, I was, I had to go get the cow was like freshly. The milk from the cow was freshly milked. So it tasted a bit different than the one in a, in a box. And you know we had to plug our own pheasant. We had to skin the deer for the venison. We had to, you know everything was camera farm table. Yep. Was really feathers and you know, fur on. So today I think kids think that everything comes in a bag. But yeah, so I was, I was very happy that I grew up in that. You know that's. It sounds medieval but it's. He was a.
- [43:18]
Unnamed Interviewer
You, you had, you have your one foot in the, in the pre, pre plastic wrapped society.
- [43:22]
Jean Georges von derichten
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was, I had a, I was like just. Yeah, I was just at the limit of the thing. 73.
- [43:29]
Unnamed Interviewer
And when it comes to opening a new restaurant, your latest is. Well there's Miami Tropic with the interiors by Jabo Pusherberg. Also have been guests on the podcast. And it's on the border I think of Miami's design district. Correct?
- [43:42]
Jean Georges von derichten
Yeah, it's right on the, on the border. It's probably what's nice about it. It's, it's workable. You can walk from the building to. It's a block away from, from the design district behind Us is Wynwood a little more funky. And then you have a Brickell on Midtown Miami right next to us. So it's right in the center of all this. On. There's actually a yaboo. And I mean George and Glenn who approached me about this project and they wanted me to do an ABC on a. On the bottom of the building. I say, I don't want to do another restaurant. I'd like to be part of the. I want to help you to design the kitchen for the resident. I want to, I want to create some lifestyle. I know, like, you know, we have so many plates on different style of tabletops, plates, silverware, glasses, kitchen equipment. I want to help to pick the best juicer, the best microplane, the best. So please put me in part of a. You know, I would love to be part of that lifestyle. And actually we want to create an app on the phone that people can order, pre order on. We stock your fridge, we stock your wine cellar, we do whatever pampering you need.
- [44:48]
Unnamed Interviewer
So basically you can live. You. You're basically, you know, you're, you're. They're literally residences. Correct. So there, I mean, and there's this private dining, which has become such a popular thing. This sort of mixture of private dining and residences and this sort of mix between instead of a hotel in a restaurant, like a sort of a condo and a restaurant.
- [45:10]
Jean Georges von derichten
That's what. But the restaurant will be an abc, I call it. The trilogy would be Kitchen Cuisina on V, on the one booth.
- [45:18]
Unnamed Interviewer
Okay, amazing.
- [45:19]
Jean Georges von derichten
So some. Something for everyone, you know, and so.
- [45:21]
Unnamed Interviewer
People can come in, walk in. You don't have to be a resident there.
- [45:23]
Jean Georges von derichten
No. Yeah. But then above, you know, in a town there's a little bit of 48 floors, there's a couple. Couple of restaurants are just for the residents, you know.
- [45:30]
Unnamed Interviewer
Oh, okay, amazing. And why do you think this is? Why, why this trend now to kind of mix residences with. With the restaurant business?
- [45:38]
Jean Georges von derichten
I think a few people are doing that. I think cheaper is doing that. I think people, they want to, you know, they want to be pampered. They want to be. Know that, you know, because sometime your name equal to great service, quality things. But I want to offer more, you know, that, that's, that's why I want to stock the fridge on set to home to call any stores and get food delivered. I can give you things that are restaurant quality, super fresh, you know, try to reinvent a little bit the living of people, you know, because everything comes from outside. He would come from downstairs, from Our fridge to your fridge.
- [46:17]
Unnamed Interviewer
And I believe that Glenn and George from Jabil Buschelberg will be designing a home for yourself there as well. Is that true?
- [46:24]
Jean Georges von derichten
Yeah, I mean you know they live in my building on Perry street in the West Village. So we live in a. We've been neighbor for 20 years.
- [46:32]
Unnamed Interviewer
Ah, okay. So. So what for your own place? What did you request from them?
- [46:35]
Jean Georges von derichten
Not yet. We have a meeting in a couple weeks. But you know I had to pick up the.
- [46:40]
Unnamed Interviewer
Any ideas as to like what you're going to ask them to. For your. For your pad in Miami?
- [46:44]
Jean Georges von derichten
Yeah, I mean I like their style to start with.
- [46:46]
Unnamed Interviewer
How do you like to live like in a. In a. In a. Like what kind of a home do you like to live in?
- [46:51]
Jean Georges von derichten
I mean already I'm living in a. Almost in an aquarium. It's all window. My favorite is all glass window. Richard Meyer designed a building. So on inside I keep it simple, simple as possible on the wanna the inside to come in. You know, New York is my decor. Miami would be the ocean. Whatever is the surrounding.
- [47:11]
Unnamed Interviewer
Okay.
- [47:11]
Jean Georges von derichten
But keep it simple. You know, I think they're very. I like they look you know, between. I think between. George was Japanese on Glenn who's you know, Swedish. Those are the two aesthetic. I like, you know, clean lines on light. You know. So it's. We work perfectly together so far. Well actually we already designed the kitchen for all the. Mostly most of the apartment. But you have different shades. You can have a you know, darker kitchen, you can have a lighter one. One in between.
- [47:42]
Unnamed Interviewer
And since you're going to be living in that building for Miami Tropic just to go back to that for a second if you're going to be in and out. But if you're going to live there, you're going to have to be able to order off the menu yourself. Assuming is there something on the menu you. You would make sure that is there so that you can order it whenever you'd like.
- [48:02]
Jean Georges von derichten
Probably the whole cauliflower.
- [48:04]
Unnamed Interviewer
Okay.
- [48:05]
Jean Georges von derichten
And if you want a home cooked meal, probably the potato with the chicken with the potato. The potato that tastes better than chicken would be on some more elaborate. But we. We're gonna either you get some raw ingredients that we fill up your fridge or cook the onion. So it's like a partner service pampering to the maximum.
- [48:27]
Unnamed Interviewer
And there was. There was an article recently I saw they're trying to explain why it was so hard to get a reservation and.
- [48:32]
Dan Rubenstein
A good restaurant now.
- [48:34]
Unnamed Interviewer
And to me I guess it's just a new Yorker. A lot of this started with the pandemic and this changes after that. Can you give me from your point of view how the sort of the business of food and restaurant and dining has sort of changed since then? Now that it's been a couple of years, like is it. How is it shaken out? Like, what is the result? Like where are we today in the history of.
- [48:57]
Jean Georges von derichten
I mean it was. It was a difficult moment. Like everybody had a difficult time. But we survived. I think originally we survived. We. I mean we had to change our business. We offer now, you know, for six months that we were closed before the outside opened. We were like delivering food from our kitchen. So we had only a few workers. Everybody wanted to deliver food. So we created a whole business. This is what. Why I decided to do that for the residents is to really offer people answer to shop outside. We can give you whatever you need made in house, you know. So we created a whole new business. I call it the before was room service because we're in a hotel. A couple restaurants I have here in hotel and now it's apartment service. So all the pandemic really we created in all the restaurants, the apartment service, you know, and all this apps that you have, all the delivery, the grubhub and all the stuff, which is amazing. It changed the life of New York. He kept us alive as well as the government. They really give us some great support to continue our business as well, which was great. I mean, some people use it the wrong way. You have to use it for the rent, for taxes, for utility and etc. But it changed the business a little bit. So for me, we had to reinvent ourselves a little bit. So we even created food that you had to build at home. For example, crispy sushi with the salmon and the chipotle mayo. We had the rice we had to warm up and we give a QR code how to assemble it. So that was very popular. We have a egg toast with caviar. We give you a little tin on there too assemble some of those things. So we really made the delivery food interesting, different, great packaging, et cetera, et cetera.
- [50:47]
Unnamed Interviewer
And do you think that the restaurants today, in terms of in person dining, have things really changed in the day to day comparing today to the pre pandemic era?
- [50:55]
Jean Georges von derichten
Yes, it changed a lot. I think people are much more demanding. You can eat good food at home now being delivered. So they have more expectation, they want more experiences. Even John George, we sitting there at JG on my fine dining room and we change our menu to mostly testing. So you have nougatin where you either la carte when you come in here. People want. They're looking for experiences, especially the young. The cloud change a lot. You know, a lot of. I would say, you know, we have a much younger clientele today. A lot of. A lot of people move to Miami or the Hamptons upset New York, I mean or older clientele. And I feel like we have a much younger demographic now.
- [51:39]
Unnamed Interviewer
What do you think the younger. Younger clientele that can afford your food? Like what are these young. I guess they're somewhat nouveau riccio because they're young and what are they craving? That was different maybe 7 years ago this point.
- [51:55]
Jean Georges von derichten
I think they're looking for quality experiences. But. But even with a simple restaurant, you know, they're looking for something very. A little more demanding. We have. We're to. We're to upper game. Since the pandemic. I think everybody had to. I mean there's more restaurant opening up now as well. But we were all. I feel this New York City become a much younger city than it was before. You know, so you have to be attractive with your on. I would say with the people know food now. Everything's available. You know, you can. Between the rating of restaurants, between the. What people see on social medias. They can. They can see, you know, if you. If they see somebody posting a beautiful meal that they wanted to. So I feel like we spend a lot of time on the phone during the pandemic on. I feel it changed a little bit of the. Of the. The sounds are much higher.
- [52:50]
Unnamed Interviewer
Yeah.
- [52:50]
Dan Rubenstein
Okay.
- [52:50]
Unnamed Interviewer
So the bar has been raised.
- [52:51]
Jean Georges von derichten
The bar has been raised definitely, you know, because I think the time we had to maybe watch cooking show maybe it's just, you know, and people exchanging the experiences during the. The pandemic. I think of. Of cooking at home or, you know, getting a delivery from this place to that place and a lot of people exchange the information.
- [53:12]
Unnamed Interviewer
All right, well, so you're. Do you. Do you eat out at other restaurants ever?
- [53:16]
Jean Georges von derichten
I do, yeah, I do.
- [53:17]
Unnamed Interviewer
I do like to go around and check out the competition in a way.
- [53:20]
Jean Georges von derichten
Yeah. For lunch usually, you know, I cook for myself or I tried the food in the restaurant I'm in at nighttime. I try. I try. What's. What's out there?
- [53:27]
Unnamed Interviewer
You know, has anything. You don't have to name names, but is there anything out there that's like sort of impressed you or do you feel like there's some new shift out there that might be changing?
- [53:37]
Jean Georges von derichten
Yeah, I mean there's a More and more. I mean, it's my. My type of food. There's more and more Asian restaurants. I think Korean, Japanese. So I think the trend is really, I think counter eating. So faster you have a relation with the chef a little bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like that. I like that. But some. But even, you know, we opened a restaurant in Japan about 10 years ago, which is a sushi counter, but we serve. We serve our food from JG there. So it's like eating it in a Japanese style.
- [54:08]
Unnamed Interviewer
Very nice.
- [54:09]
Jean Georges von derichten
You know, so I think that's. I mean, to name a few. I mean, it's difficult to, you know, for example, go to Penny. You mean there to Penny?
- [54:20]
Unnamed Interviewer
No. Where was this?
- [54:21]
Jean Georges von derichten
Oh, my God. It's a seafood counter.
- [54:23]
Unnamed Interviewer
Okay.
- [54:26]
Jean Georges von derichten
I forget where it is. It's on, I think East 44 Street. So something is. It's a restaurant with, I think, 30 seats. And it's, you know, not. It's really a seafood counter. You can have a piece of fish, cooked lobster, some oyster, some. It's all seafood, but that's where I like to dine.
- [54:49]
Unnamed Interviewer
Lovely. If you had to describe an ideal Jean Georges meal in three words, what would those three words be?
- [54:57]
Jean Georges von derichten
Has to be fresh, spicy, unsexy.
- [55:05]
Dan Rubenstein
Thank you to my guest, Jean Georges and to everyone at Dada Goldberg for making this episode happen. The editor of the Grand Tourist is Stan Hall.
- [55:13]
Unnamed Interviewer
To keep this going, don't forget to.
- [55:15]
Dan Rubenstein
Visit our website and sign up for our newsletter, the Grand Tourist curator@thegrandtourist.net and follow me on Instagram DanRubenstein. You can also purchase the first ever print issue of the Grand Tourist online now on our website, the Grand Tourist. And don't forget to follow the Grand Tourist on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you like to listen. And leave us a rating or comment. Every little bit helps. Till next time.