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- [00:00]
Marc Forel
I think about sort of exposing brick, you know, like in an apartment that you're kind of renovating or remodeling, and you kind of expose the original brick. I think with Caribbean culture, there's an opportunity to do exactly that, kind of get folks away from this fairly reductive view to what the Caribbean is about and show them a more multidimensional, multivariate, again, more inspiring and authentic reflection of that culture. The Caribbean is a magical place.
- [00:26]
Dan Rubenstein
Hi, I'm Dan Rubenstein and this is the Grand Tourist. I've been a design journalist for more than 20 years and this is my personalized guided tour to the worlds of fashion, art, architecture, food and travel. All the elements of a well lived life. And welcome to a special episode brought to you by our dear supporters at Janus ac. Hey, for no particular reason, I was wondering if you might feel the need to escape somewhere, like, permanently. Last spring, I took a deep dive into the world of Italian real estate. And today we're going to do a little bit of planning and figure out where in the world we're going to hide. I mean, get away from it all this summer, or perhaps forever. Somewhere with warm sands, lots of sun, simple foods, and with as little stress as possible. This time, we're looking into island living. While I'm not the beach bum per se, I do enjoy the idea of living by the sea and enjoying the quiet life and the pace of it all. On this episode, we'll speak with an enterprising entrepreneur who's elevating the Caribbean rum to new heights with some honest advice on where to consider exploring or even putting down routes from Tobago to Barbados. And we'll speak with a designing couple that's bringing high design and contemporary interiors to the extremely popular Spanish island of Mallorca. But first, we'll meet Alexia Scheinman, the chief brand and strategy officer of her family's company, the Hototrot, New York interior design firm Pembroke and Ives. The agency is well known for its ultra luxe clientele, creating mansions, penthouses, private clubs and the like. But it was during the time of the pandemic when Alexia decided to move to Athens full time, flying back and forth when needed to continue her firm's incredible work, while also maintaining a palatial home overlooking the water on the island of Serifos in the Aegean Sea. I wanted to kick things off and ask the recently made expat what drew her to Greece, what life is like over there full time, and what her advice is on sifting through the absolute treasure trove of locales that make up the Greek Isles. So, Alexia, thank you so much for doing this. I'm so excited to chat with you right now. And you're in Athens, correct?
- [02:33]
Alexia Scheinman
That's correct, yes. And I'm very excited to be here with you. Thank you so much.
- [02:37]
Dan Rubenstein
And tell me a little about your firm and sort of your relationship with Greece.
- [02:44]
Alexia Scheinman
Sure. So Pembroke and Ives is a firm started by my father in the late 80s, so it's been around for some time. Started a New York City and I joined the firm right out of grad school. I studied at Parsons, I did my MFA in interior design there and joined my father. And since joining the firm, we've grown the business to about 80 people, mostly based in our New York City office, working on both high end residential projects around the US and internationally as well, and also on some real estate development, residential development, hospitality projects. So we have quite a diverse practice. And it was actually through Covid that I was able to realize that much of what I do for the firm, which is more on the business side of our business. So in our brand strategy, business development, marketing, that I can do many of those things remotely. And that really gave me the kind of ticket to be able to jump on a plane and come and live out my dream in, in Athens and spending a lot more time in Greece, which is a country I've always loved.
- [04:05]
Dan Rubenstein
And when, when did that happen? When did you kind of decide? Was this a pandemic thing?
- [04:09]
Alexia Scheinman
It was something I had been thinking about pre pandemic, and I had spent a lot of time in Greece through my childhood. My mother's Greek Cypriot originally, but as a family we always spent our summers in Greece and have many friends in Greece as well. And I came to live in Greece, in Athens when I was 15 to do an exchange program here for six months. And that's really what planted the seed for my love of this city in particular, but also the country. And so it was an idea that had been brewing for some time and of course we all went into lockdown and that led to a much deeper yearning for a big move like this. So I moved in 2021.
- [05:00]
Dan Rubenstein
And so three years in. How would you describe to someone like me? I've never been to Greece, so I would love to hear from you, just sort of top line. If you have to describe life in Greece full time as an emigre, I guess you could say, like, what is it like compared to that New York life?
- [05:23]
Alexia Scheinman
Yeah, I like to describe. Well, of course there are many sides to Greece So I'm speaking specifically to life in Athens, but I do describe Athens as the vibrancy and the grittiness of New York City paired with a Mediterranean climate and lifestyle. So for me, it's the. The best of all the worlds that you can bring together here. And of course, a huge appeal of Athens is all the surrounding landscape and all the islands and the ability to be by the sea in 20 minutes or to be in the mountains in 20 minutes, or, you know, to be playing tennis outside for 10 months of the year. It's. You can live very well in Athens, and I don't think you need a lot to be able to enjoy life here.
- [06:18]
Dan Rubenstein
Okay, so there is also the kind of an affordability.
- [06:21]
Alexia Scheinman
There's an affordability, but there's also a simplicity aspect to it. You know, I was horrified by the fact, for example, that on Sundays you can't really buy anything, even food or groceries, let alone going to the store to buy a pair of sneakers or whatever you may need. And coming from New York, which is a 247 city where you can get anything anytime, that was a huge shock to the system. And three years in, I cherish Sundays for the fact that you can't do any of those things. You're kind of forced to slow down a little bit. You're forced to spend time with people and to enjoy those quieter moments that I think are really the more important moments of life.
- [07:11]
Dan Rubenstein
And, you know, as a designer, you know, have you done any projects out on these islands? Or like, how. What is that experience when it comes to the nitty gritty of building and renovating and all that stuff?
- [07:25]
Alexia Scheinman
The long and short of that is it's complicated and it's difficult. And I guess in some ways that's a good thing. Otherwise more people would be. Would be doing it. But of course, having the local know how is really important to be able to achieve a project on these islands. Particularly Serifos does not have an airport, so everything that arrives to the island is by boats. There are about 1400 people that live there year round. It's a very small, sparsely populated island. So even the labor tends to have to be imported, let alone all the materials and all the know how all the expertise is almost all coming from off the islands, from the mainland, which of course increases the cost of everything as well.
- [08:23]
Dan Rubenstein
And so I've, you know, as I'm a complete Greek amateur, I guess you could call it, or novice, which is probably a better term. You know, okay, there's 200 and something islands or Whatever, you know, dozens and dozens and dozens of islands. Like, and I'm just sort of like, yeah, I want to find a place that I could spend half the year or four or even three quarters of a year or whatever. Like, what are my options? And like, what would you tell me? Just if I was like, hey, Alexia, I would love to just. I want to do this. Like, what advice do you have? Like, just in terms of choosing where to go. Because that's also been something that I've kind of struggled with when I'm planning something. Degrees where I'm like, oh, do I want to just spend all of my time in Athens or do I want to go to the islands? Which one? How hard, you know, how do I choose? Like, that seems to be. It's kind of an embarrassment of riches in terms of, like picking.
- [09:16]
Alexia Scheinman
It's a great question. And I get asked this a lot by friends and friends of friends who are wanting to come and experience Greece for the first time. And there are so many factors to consider. In your example, if it was a place you wanted to come and spend six months of the year, you know, I think the consideration is how remote do you want to be or in what kind of proximity to the mainland do you want to be? I think that that's an important consideration because you have islands like Patmos, for example, which is an incredibly beautiful island, but you have to take, I think it's about an eight hour ferry to get there. And that's the one of the only ways, unless you take a helicopter. But it's basically the only accessible way to get to an island like Patmos. So if you're looking for a very off the grid experience where you can kind of just hunker up and really enjoy one particular island, that would be a great option to go to. Of course, a lot of people think of Greece as. As a place where you're able to stop on one island for a couple of days, then jump on a ferry and go to another island. So for that more island hopping experience, there are many places you can go. Of course, I'm biased, but, you know, I think Serifos is a very beautiful island and also it's on.
- [10:43]
Dan Rubenstein
How far is it?
- [10:44]
Alexia Scheinman
It's about two, two and a half hours. So in proximity to Athens, it's actually one of the closer islands to Athens, which makes it one of the easier destinations, let's say, to get to. And it's also connected on the same ferry route to more popular islands like Sifnos and Paros and Milos. So you can do a nice ferry route around and get to see a couple of islands within a few days of each other, let's say. And then there are. I mean, you can head to an island like Idra, which is quite a popular island, also relatively close in proximity to Athens. And Idra in particular is an island with no cars on it. It's an island that's always attracted writers, very picturesque islands. And what's nice about Idra is there's really just one port area which is the hub of life in Idra. So it feels very, very easy islands, let's say, and has a very nice community of people that go there who are very creative types of people, I would say. The drawback for me to Idra is the accessibility to the beaches where you have to take a boat almost every. You have to take a boat to get to all of the beaches, whereas some of the other islands are. You can be on these beautiful beaches in walking distance or be able to drive there five or 10 minutes. So again, it's. It depends what's important to you if you want to go to an island with stunning beaches and you're happy to kind of take a boat around to access those beaches. Also. Milos is an amazing island for that, with these very unique and picturesque beaches that you can see. There are some islands that have amazing history to them. Crete, for example, it's a huge island. And, you know, you can spend two weeks exploring Crete and still not see it all. It has two main cities.
- [12:48]
Dan Rubenstein
Well, let me put it to you this way. Is there an island out there that's maybe off the beaten path that you think that doesn't get a lot of press, that doesn't get a lot of attention, that maybe only people in Greece might kind of be attracted to or for, like, that kind of second home? Because obviously, like, in the. In the US Press and in the travel press and the style press, like, we always hear about the same three places, but if there's 200 islands, there must be one that locals and Greek citizens are like, okay, this is obviously, this is where we go. It's just like, if you ask an Italian, like, where do you go on vacation? None of them go, like, we're going to Florence. Like, they're. They're all going to find some coastal town that you've. That Americans have never heard of. So, like, what is. What are some of those islands that maybe, like, a Greek person would. Would know and love, but that just never makes it into the pages of Travel and Leisure?
- [13:45]
Alexia Scheinman
Well, this doesn't exactly answer your question because it's not an island. But I have completely fallen in love with the mainland coastline of Greece. So the Peloponnese region and in particular an area called Mani. And it very much feels like being on an island in certain parts of this mainland area where you just have the most incredible waters you've ever seen and a landscape that actually is very reminiscent of Tuscany with these tall cypress trees and these kind of winding hills and the Greek coastline. Yes, the Peloponnese is an incredibly beautiful part of Greece that I think is extraordinarily underrated. And you get beautiful waters there, beautiful beaches, combined with this landscape of these tall cypress trees. It's very green and lush, unlike some of the islands that we've talked about previously, which are very dry and sparse. These are incredibly beautiful landscapes with stone houses and amazing food and very accessible from, from Athens. And there's also an airport in Kalamato in the Peloponnese region, which makes driving through these areas very accessible. And I just think it's such an amazing part of Greece to be able to explore there.
- [15:18]
Dan Rubenstein
And, you know, let's say, okay, so I wanted to buy a house, you know, or, you know, acquire real estate in some way on the islands. Like, how do you do it? Is it really. Are there agents that are specific to these islands or is it more regional? How does that work? How would you start that journey?
- [15:42]
Alexia Scheinman
I would say it's lacking in any great kind of structure. So there's not one exact answer to that question. On most of the islands, I would say there is a local real estate office, at least one. Or if not on the island itself, then on the bigger neighboring islands. There are a few websites that pull together all of the listings that exist all throughout Greece actually, that allow you to filter by the area in which you're looking so you can get a general sense of what's, what's around, what's available. But I have to say, in Greece in particular, and probably for most places of the world, the best thing is to show up there and to start speaking to people. And you always find the best deals here by kind of being there and being led to what it is you're looking for through conversations you have, through meeting people locally. That's always the best way to suss out real estate in Greece anyway.
- [16:53]
Dan Rubenstein
And in terms of that day to day life on an island, it's one thing to kind of go to an island for five days on a holiday or be in a hotel or an airbnb or something on an island. And there's another to own a house and to live there months out of the year on Idra or what have you. What should someone who has never done that before kind of be prepared for?
- [17:21]
Alexia Scheinman
Oh, it's magical. I mean, it's of course, depending where you're coming from and what day to day life looks for you somewhere else. But I think this idea of really just slowing down, of seeing the sea every day is so meditative and rejuvenating. And I really think you just come back to the very basics of enjoying very simple things about life. And the biggest activity of your day could be going to buy what you need at the supermarket and making your way home from there. And maybe you're not finding what you're looking for, but you're just buying what you find there because that's what's available that day and being a little bit creative with what you're able to do with what's around you. And I just think there's something about the combination of sun and sea and a nice climate and fresh food that you realize there's really not much more that you need in life to make you happy and nice. People. Of course.
- [18:41]
Dan Rubenstein
Yeah, let's talk about, let's talk about the people. I mean, I think everybody has that kind of, you know, mamma mia fantasy and this and these kinds of like, especially in the US these kinds of like, sort of like Greek stereotypes in a sense of like the west, you know, someone from New York or someone from the United States going to live in Greece and you know, my Greek wedding and all that stuff. All that kind of stuff. But in terms of like, you know, surviving that day to day, like your faucet breaks in the bathroom and you need like help and someone to come and fix it. Like what do you need to know about that kind of like Greek day to day culture that's not so much about like, you know, how warm and friendly somebody is, but just like how they think and how they operate.
- [19:30]
Alexia Scheinman
I hope that never happens to you. And Greece, that's, that's not an easy one to. I think like in any culture it's, you find, you find the people that, that can help you and there, there are always those that will always see you as a foreigner in, in a way that is not in a particularly good light. You know, they, they kind of see you coming in and using their resources or bringing in elements of your culture that they feel are not appropriate or let's, let's say like they're not particularly welcoming to foreigners. There's, there's that side and then there's a side of Greece which is incredibly hospitable and open and welcoming to, to new ideas. And they love being able to showcase their country and everything that Greece is known for, whether it is inviting you into their house and cooking for you. They take such great pride in the food of the culture. And that's always a way of showing your love or your appreciation or whatever it may be. It's just such a nice, a nice part of Greek culture is sharing in a meal together, for example. But doing the small tasks or dealing with the bureaucracy, I'm sure it's the same in Italy and many of these Mediterranean countries. It's very, very difficult. Even if you are Greek, it's difficult. And you have the added challenge if you're not a native speaker, you know, maybe don't know the ins and the outs of the systems that it can definitely be difficult to navigate.
- [21:30]
Dan Rubenstein
Let's talk about food for a second. On these Greek islands, obviously you think of that kind of island Mediterranean sort of diet and that kind of classic vision of olives and fish and blah, blah, blah. What's your personal favorite thing to order when you go to Patmos or go to Idra or what do you kind of. What's the thing you order on the menu when someone gives you at a restaurant and you're kind of like, what's your go to?
- [21:58]
Alexia Scheinman
I'm a very simple girl at heart. So, you know, like a grilled, a grilled white fish with. They have these greens called horta, which are just mountain greens. It's a very generic catch all phrase, but it's just the most delicious. Fresh boiled green vegetables with olive oil and lemon and fresh fish. And fava is a favorite. It's similar to hummus, but made with yellow split peas and a Greek salad. I could eat that every day of my life, I think.
- [22:39]
Dan Rubenstein
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- [24:52]
Marc Forel
Things are going well. You know, the world of ten to one trying to bring the story, the magic, the positivity of all things rum and all things Caribbean culture to as many places and spaces as we can. As you know, 10 to 1 is a real point of pride for me given my Caribbean roots and everything else. So certainly a pleasure to continue telling that story and sharing that story with the world.
- [25:14]
Dan Rubenstein
And yeah, tell me a little bit about the story for the people that don't know, tell me just a little bit about your background and where you came to this sort of world of spirits and how you started 10 to 1 and why.
- [25:26]
Marc Forel
Yeah, for sure, you know. Well, you know, I tell people it starts with the accent that anybody out there is listening that they're hearing at the moment. So born and raised in the Caribbean, very proud son of the soil from Trinidad and Tobago. And in a lot of ways, you know, 10 to 1 is a very happy intersection of a personal point of passion with a very clear commercial opportunity. You know, the personal point of passion being from Trinidad, being from the Caribbean, you know, rum, I tell people, is something that is quite literally born out of the soil where we're from. And so we have this amazing opportunity to elevate it, celebrate it, put it on a global stage. It's a spirit that for a long time has been, I think, very much underappreciated, a little bit misunderstood in the hearts and minds of many consumers. And so for me, 10 to 1 is this amazing opportunity to, I think, begin to shift some of those perceptions, to try to reinvigorate the category. And we do that through a combination of two things. Bringing a more elevated liquid to market, getting people away from, I think, some of the sugary, slushy cocktails they might be used to kind of around rum, Elevated liquid, super versatile, exceptionally clean, no additives of any kind. I think that's really important for today's consumer. And then from a brand narrative perspective, getting people away from the old kitchen, colonial sort of way that rum has been represented historically into something that feels more contemporary, more authentic, more inspired. I think if you can kind of do those two things with 10 to 1, we have this ambition to create what is really sort of the most authentically crafted Caribbean rum on the market. I think there's been a lot of resonance around what we've done with a little bit of that intention in mind. In terms of my own personal background, I moved to the US when I was 16, came here for college, have been here mostly ever since. In the way back, studied at mit. My first degree was in chemical engineering. Did a public policy master's at Cambridge and business school at Harvard. So some amazing stops there along the way. And then from a professional standpoint, early career in consulting and private equity with Bain and Fidelity. Most recently, I was actually on the executive team at Starbucks. I worked for Howard Schultz, who's still an amazing mentor and friend of mine, has been an amazing support as I've brought 10 to one to life. And it's a little bit of that inspiration that kind of got me thinking about how we could bring a business and a brand to life through the lens of who I am, where I'm from, the things that I care about. And so this ends up being, as I said, a very personal story. In addition to creating what has been the most awarded and fastest growing ram out there in the category today.
- [28:06]
Dan Rubenstein
Tell me about the name 10 to 1 and where it comes from, because it's not totally random.
- [28:11]
Marc Forel
Yes, that's right. I tell people, actually every element of this brand is intentional. And actually that starts with a name which is provides a good signal as to where we're headed. The name 10 to 1, inspired by the original Caribbean Federation which consisted of 10 countries. So this idea of 10 becoming 1. And Trinidad's prime minister at the time had a famous quote where he had said, 1 from 10 leaves 0. The idea there being if you remove 1 from the collective, the whole thing falls apart. And so we've always said that 10 to 1 is a brand based on this idea of community, strengthen numbers. The idea that we are all stronger together than we are apart. In my mind, that's not a Trinidadian message or a Caribbean message, for that matter. It's one that hopefully feels broadly and globally resonant for so many of us around the world today.
- [28:59]
Dan Rubenstein
And, you know, for those who don't know Trinidad and Tobago like, you know, and don't know it as a, you know, there's so many places in the Caribbean, so many different, you know, pockets and islands and cultures. Tell me how you describe Trinidad and Tobago in terms of the. How it, how it is different from the rest of the Caribbean.
- [29:21]
Marc Forel
You know, yeah, it's a great question. And it's, it's. It's so different in so many ways. And I say that, you know, of course, everybody has a little bit of their hometown bias. And so that may be the first inclination that folks may think as I, as I say that. But, but listen, even if you kind of use the lens of rum and I'll pivot off of that, but I always tell people the soil composition in Trinidad is very different. Trinidad is geologically part of South America. It's the southernmost island. It's right off the coast of Venezuela. And you can actually see in the old Pangea model where Trinidad sort of broke off of South America. So we share that same oil and gas vein that Venezuela does. Soil composition is different. As I just alluded to, we are an oil and gas economy. So whereas a lot of the Caribbean has obviously kind of built its. Has been built on the back of tourism for the last, you know, half a century and beyond. Trinidad and Tobago is a more industrialized economy. Oil and gas. We were one of the top five exporters of both ammonia and methanol globally for a long period of time, if you look at these. So that's geologically, that's economically. If you look at it demographically, Trinidad and Tobago, 40% black, 42% Indian, lots of folks who are mixed then Chinese, Syrian, Lebanese descent also. That's a part of our makeup as well. Addition to, of course, folks who have European orientation and origin as well. So a very kind of interesting, unique cultural mosaic that comes from that. And you see it Manifested in the kind of food that we have, which is amazing. Sort of amalgam of India and African, European, you know, Middle Eastern sort of sensibilities. You see it brought to life in the food, in the way that we relate, we interact. A lot of the cultural elements are super, super different. And I tell folks that, you know, unlike maybe other places in the Caribbean that again, are a little bit more tourist forward, in Trinidad there's something about, you know, if you come to Trinidad, there aren't a lot of street signs that tell you where to go and where to hang out and all those things. There aren't a lot of touristy places. Part of the beauty of Trinidad is that you celebrate with us. You know, you're going to eat where we eat, you're going to drink where we drink, you're going to party where we party, you're going to go to the same beaches as us. And so there's something about, I think, the magic of becoming part of the essence of who and what we are as a people that I think makes Trinidad a very special place to visit, to explore and ultimately to celebrate.
- [31:59]
Dan Rubenstein
Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, with Trinidad, like, what is. Take me through maybe like, you know, if you were to go and visit with a friend who'd never been before, describe for me like a perfect weekend in Trinidad.
- [32:11]
Marc Forel
Yeah, for sure. So, you know, Trinidad, by the way, and Tobago are very different. Right. So whereas I just kind of painted a picture for you as Trinidad as a little bit more, you know, industrial capital, a little bit more. I call it Caribbean Metropolitan, if you will. Tobago is more of that unspoiled tropical paradise. Right. Super rustic, amazing beaches. The Argyle waterfalls are incredible. If you wanted a little bit more of that sort of, I guess, sort of romantic view of what the Caribbean might hold for you, then a couple days in Tobago would be really important. So if I was going to take you near the Trinidad for a long weekend, and I've done that with friends of mine, you know, maybe four, let's call it a four day weekend, let's say it was Memorial Day weekend. I'd probably do two days in Trinidad, give you a chance to kind of explore Port of Spain and environs. We have this incredible roundabout, it's actually the largest roundabout in the world called the Savannah. It's like a massive park that sits just outside of Port of Spain. The Magnificent Seven. These really incredible colonial buildings with a ton of history that are attached to them. I would take you up to the north coast of Trinidad on a nice drive we'd go to Maracas beach, which is where a lot of Trinidadians are found hanging out on a weekend also. And then you'd have to visit Ariapita Avenue at night. It's sort of a bustling avenue thoroughfare with lots of really cool bars. And you get a little bit of a sense of the vibrancy of the people, some of the magic that comes with being a part of that Trondhean culture and Trinidadian setup. So I'd kind of give you a little bit of that introduction to our country over there and then we pop over to Tobago for a couple days where I'd give you a little bit more of that sort of more rustic, more beach forward, very kind of chill, laid back vibe. And if you kind of put those two pieces together, I think you got a very unique one of a kind experience coming down to a place like Trinidad and Tobago.
- [34:04]
Dan Rubenstein
And, you know, there's, especially since the pandemic, a lot of people have sort of looked into, you know, buying second homes, you know, living on an island, you know, doing spending half the year there or full time or whatever. Not obviously not just in places like Trinidad, but all over the Caribbean. What is your personal experience been like with the community there and the people that you work with in terms of like people moving to people to, you know, to live part time down in the Caribbean, for sure.
- [34:36]
Marc Forel
So, I mean, I've, you know, seen and heard a lot of that. You're right, I think kind of from 2020 on. So we're kind of four years into this new chapter, I suppose, where that's concerned, you know, as a reminder, 10 to 1, as a brand is a pan. We have a pan Caribbean orientation, right, where we're bringing rums to life from Jamaica, Trinidad, Barbados, the Dominican Republic, Guyana. And so even some of our lens ends up being not just Trinidad centric, but looking at what's happening in some of those other islands, you know, culturally, domestically or otherwise. Betas is actually a really good example of this, right? Where, you know, I think to their credit, they did an exceptional job in the immediate sort of aftermath or the immediate advent of COVID where they realized that folks were looking for places to escape to, to spend some more time. And, you know, whereas. Whereas maybe, I don't know, 10, 15, 20 years ago, people were happy to kind of, I think, come to the Caribbean with a little bit of this more kind of rustic, detached mindset, let's call it, right? Like, you know, I don't care if the wifi works. Let's just use that as an example in this, in the model you're describing, obviously, there's a slightly different brief there. Right. Like, I need the connectivity to allow me to do what I'm doing further afield while also enjoying what Barbados or Antigua or St Kitts might have to offer. And so I think you've kind of seen this rise in more curated amenity forward options. Some of those are more in the hotel hospitality side, some of those you'd see in some of the more modern bills that are popping up again in a place like a Barbados or in Antigua. I think there's also things that folks have done on the policy government side. Barbados, as an example, has. I forget exactly what it's called, but it's. It's a welcome stamp visa scheme. Right. Allows you to stay on the island for an extended period of time. I'm sure you've heard of the golden visa setups in other islands where folks invest. And Europe. Portugal has something like that as well, where you can invest a certain amount into personal property or some other vehicle on the island, which then again allows you to either get a visa, extended stay visa, get a passport and then become part of the fabric there. And so I think you're seeing a lot of that that has kind of risen in this kind of post Covid, more remote, or at least a professionally nomadic space where the Caribbean has become a more and more attractive destination.
- [37:08]
Dan Rubenstein
With that in mind, and is there, you mentioned, you know, a few different islands. Is there one in particular that you think in terms of like, this sort of remote working ability, this sort of like new kind of nomadic lifestyle on an island? Like, what were you. Is there one that you think that where, if you had to move to the Caribbean for, say, six months out of the year, which one, aside from Trinidad, maybe you might choose?
- [37:35]
Marc Forel
Yeah, I think the leader in the clubhouse is Barbados. And I think I've seen, you know, friends and colleagues of mine who actually are in Trinidad have made their way to Barbados in the last couple of years. I have some friends who are of Trinidad Caribbean parentage and descent who maybe are from the US or the UK who have also migrated to Barbados in the last, actually 12 to 18 months. And then I think again, infrastructurally and from a policy perspective, they've had the most comprehensive and most proactive stance where this is concerned, actively encouraging folks to make their way down there and make this part of their, you know, six months on, six months off, three months on, three months off, kind of a Setup, I think that's a little bit different than, you know, some of those golden visa schemes, which are to me, almost more, not more institutional. Right. But they have more of a long range sort of mindset attached to them versus the idea that like, you can live and work and fold this sort of into, again, the fabric of your daily exercise. So I think Barbados for most folks is the leader in the clubhouse where that's concerned.
- [38:43]
Dan Rubenstein
What would be the best beach in the Caribbean you've ever seen?
- [38:47]
Marc Forel
Well, I haven't seen them all, so I know, you know, so I'll say something on this, on this podcast and then I'll get some stick for excluding someone or something. But the Angola beaches I've seen were the best. We're definitely the best. Yeah. Yeah. I have to give honorable mention to our own beaches in Tobago, by the way. You know, there's a beach on the north coast of Tobago called Castara. It's one of the ones that's like a little bit more out of the way again, if you want, you know, you'd go there on an evening. Fishermen are, the sun is setting, the fishermen are pulling the seine in with the day's catch. It's a lot of generational families from Tobago who've been there for a long time just know this as their beach. I think there's experiences like that or like a palatu Va or what have you in Tobago that like, at least for me, growing up as a kid, were super, super special places. And I think getting some of that mixed into your Caribbean exploration, I think again has a ton of benefit to it.
- [39:41]
Dan Rubenstein
Is there any kind of practical advice that you think you would give people that you've heard about? You know, like once people actually do it, they might say, gosh, I really wish I had realized X. What sort of tips would you give for people like, you know, obviously finding a place and making the purchase is probably the easiest part, but in terms of everything else, in the terms of the day to day, you know, any advice?
- [40:05]
Marc Forel
Yeah, I think, you know, to me, maybe one of the bigger pieces of advice, and this is as somebody who's from the Caribbean and obviously has a great deal of pride and passion for part of the world that I'm from, is to make sure that if you're buying a second home down there or looking to again, make it part of your routine, whatever that looks like, to really kind of do a little bit of a double click to understand the nuances of the places and spaces you want to occupy. Right. The Caribbean is not a monolith. Right. Trinidad. Life in Trinidad is very different than life in Barbados, Saint Lucia, Anguilla, Antigua. You know, we haven't even, we haven't even touched the Spanish speaking Caribbean hair, right? Like the Dominican Republic and stuff is a whole other. That's a whole other world, right? I'm speaking about English speaking Caribbean hair, USVI and bvi, right. So I think it's. And we all know what this is like. There are places that are amazing to visit as a tourist, right? And some places that you would spend amazing four days in, you probably would struggle to spend 14 days in. And the places you want to spend two weeks in aren't the places you want to spend three to six months in. And so I think that big piece of advice is to just kind of have a slightly more nuanced approach to understanding the culture as it exists from place to place and really kind of gets a little bit more dialed in on what you might be looking for as part of that experience.
- [41:24]
Dan Rubenstein
Before we return to the episode, another word from our sponsor, Janus AC. On this episode, we're exploring the vast sea of possibilities when it comes to island living. And that's just how I see it, too. No two spots on the earth are the same, from the Caribbean to the Mediterranean. But when it comes to designing these spaces, you'll need an outdoor furniture brand that can speak multiple design languages. That's where Janus AC comes in. Its versatile collections bring a sense of luxury to any environment, from a whitewashed Grecian terrace to a cool and casual private beach in the Caribbean. You'll find Genes AC and its many iconic designs trusted all over the globe, from five star hotels in southern Italy to safari lounges in Botswana and even cruise ships sailing around Antarctica. So whether you're planning your ultimate refuge on an island off the coast of Stockholm or simply planning a little slice of paradise next to your swimming pool, Janice AC has all of the works of design you'll need, from modern and minimal to classic and contemporary. To dive into the world of beautiful design, make an appointment at your local Janus AC showroom or visit janisac.com that's J A N U S E t c I e.com My last guests today are the designing couple of the firm Roc and Villa Interiors aficionado Stefan Relic and architect Paolo Valcic. The two have been renovating and developing interiors on the island of Mallorca, complete with contemporary minimal aesthetics and a reverence for natural materials and a respect for the island's historic interiors. But they're not natives, which we'll get into. Which is why I so enjoy talking to them for this episode. To them, Mallorca isn't just a job, but their dream realized. I caught up with the savvy duo from their office. And before we get to everything Majorca, tell me a little bit about where the two of you guys are from originally. You're not from the island.
- [43:30]
Stefan Relic
I am.
- [43:32]
Dan Rubenstein
Oh, you are.
- [43:33]
Marc Forel
Okay.
- [43:34]
Dan Rubenstein
Sepali, you grew up. You grew up in.
- [43:36]
Stefan Relic
No, no, no. I didn't grow up in Majorca. I grew up on a small island in Croatia, so. But it's a very small island. It's not like Majorca. Mallorca. It's about 1 million people. And my island in my island lives like maximum 10,000 and in my village is like 2,000 maximum. So.
- [44:01]
Dan Rubenstein
Okay, it's. What island is that?
- [44:04]
Stefan Relic
It's close to across Zadar, which is like a one hour north of Split. I guess everybody more or less know where Split is in Croatia, on Croatia coast. So, yeah, I grew up there. It was a nice childhood, Very protective.
- [44:25]
Dan Rubenstein
And Stefan, where are you from originally?
- [44:27]
Paolo Valcic
I was born in a town in a smaller town in Croatia. But then I was three years old when my family moved to Belgrade, the capital of Serbia. So I grew up in Belgrade and I was always kind of a big city guy. But you never know how life, the life path where it takes you. I would never imagine that I would end up living in an island and I would love it so much. Yeah. So I grew up in Serbia. I lived in several different countries throughout my studies and career. And then when we met around almost 10 years ago now, we were living in. I was living in Serbia, Paulo was living in Croatia. We did a long distance relationship throughout four different cities. And then we decided to settle in Barcelona, and we moved together to Barcelona around eight years ago. And then five years ago, life path somehow brought us to Mallorca, and here we are.
- [45:24]
Dan Rubenstein
And so before we were talking, you guys mentioned that you were kind of going to lunch in Barcelona for the day, and you can kind of go back and forth, and I'm kind of wondering, all Americans are kind of jealous of people that live in the Mediterranean or the region or even in Europe where they can kind of be in a different country in an hour and in an hour's flight be almost in so many different places. So why Mallorca? How did that happen? Why specifically did you choose there?
- [45:59]
Stefan Relic
Stefan will answer this question.
- [46:01]
Paolo Valcic
Yeah, it was, in a way, Mallorca chose us. We didn't choose Mallorca back then, my profession has not had nothing to do with the design and the architecture. Paolo is an architect and interior designer and always has been. And I was working in fashion back then and I was working for a big fashion brand in Barcelona. And then I got a job offer from a company here that has a headquarters here in Mallorca. And then we just decided to give it a go. Paolo back then, he was a freelance architect and an interior designer. He wasn't tied to any kind of company. And it just seemed interesting. He came out of the blue. I didn't look for it. I just got the job offer. And we were debating, should we do it, should we not? And we just say, yeah, why not? Let's try it. And this is how we ended up here. And we absolutely love it. And we're so happy that we did that move.
- [46:56]
Dan Rubenstein
And so how did Rock and Villa begin? How did that start? How did you guys decide to make that leap and start working together as a couple?
- [47:09]
Paolo Valcic
I think the first spark of it happened when we bought our first flat in Barcelona around eight years ago. When we moved there, we bought our FL and we decided to completely renovate it and design it ourselves. Obviously Paolo was and is back then architect in interior design. And I was always interested in interior design. So when we did the project of that flat, we realized that we work really well together on a project like that in all aspects in architecture, when obviously Paolo develops the project. But we were exchanging ideas and kind of like, you know, getting to a point where we are agreeing on certain things. And then the design we did together and how we managed all the construction works. And then it turned out to be a really nice flat. It got published in several magazines here in Spain. And then we realized maybe there's something here. We seem to be working very well together on a project like this. So this was kind of the first spark. And then we did another flat as an investment back then in Barcelona, not branded under Rock and Ville, under this name. We sold it. And then when we moved to Barcelona, we decided we wanted to do the same thing with typical Mallorcan houses, but branded under this name. So we were planning it for several years and then we went live with it around a year and a half ago with the first project. And then when we got the visibility, we started getting inquiries for clients projects as well, which we also work on together now. So this was kind of the history of how it, how it all started.
- [48:42]
Dan Rubenstein
And Stefani, maybe if you could describe, like, what do you describe Your style or your sense of style when it comes to interiors? How do you guys like to communicate that with clients? And, like, why is it needed in Mallorca? Like, when you were looking. I guess when other people go looking for a house in Mallorca, I'm sure they're buying it as a second home, most likely. And so they're probably looking for something that is already designed well, they don't have to redo it themselves. So tell me a little about your sense of interior style and contrast that with what normally is on the market here.
- [49:19]
Paolo Valcic
I think what we are especially passionate about in terms of direction and design and the style is renovating historical buildings and houses here in Mallorca. Typical Majorcan houses that have a lot of soul, that have a lot of original elements. And this is what really inspires us and drives us. And this is where we start from. And then we're finding a way how to give it a contemporary and modern finish and touch, but always by maintaining the original historical elements. And this is something that we really like doing. And what I think that we do a bit different than the usual, the average thing, or let's say safe kind of property development is, as people are usually going with a very safe design because they want this property to be very commercial. Right. And they want it to be easily or sold more fast. Right. Because it needs to be safe. But what we are doing, we are being a bit braver, which in a way, it might not be commercial because sometimes it may happen that we can wait for a buyer a bit longer because it's not everyone's cup of tea. But we chose to go that way, and we will always go that way because we just don't want to suppress the creativity and the sense of style that we have for the sake of the property being more commercial. Right. But again, as I said before, there still needs to be a bit of balance, because if we would go all the way with our creativity and style, that probably wouldn't be very commercial and safe. But we're trying to find that right balance there, right?
- [50:54]
Stefan Relic
Sometimes, yeah, sometimes we discuss. We just go so into the project and we are so inspired. We are like putting things. And then we say, okay, come down, come down, let's see, let's see. How is it like, commercial? We don't want to lose this creativity and also the commercial part. So it's always like what Stefan said, It's the balance.
- [51:24]
Dan Rubenstein
And have you guys noticed? So what year did you guys move to Mallorca?
- [51:30]
Stefan Relic
Five years ago.
- [51:32]
Dan Rubenstein
Okay, so you moved there in about 2019. So since then, have you noticed especially we're talking about the pandemic period as sort of an increase in the number of people that are interested in the island? Like, how is the real estate market on the island?
- [51:49]
Paolo Valcic
Definitely, even five years ago, it was a very trending destination, but now I think even more so, we think it definitely is. Recently there was an article where Palma was, by some criteria, proclaimed as the city with the best quality of life in the world. And it's getting increasingly popular, especially with the American crowd and the American audience. Two or three years ago, there's a direct flight that started from New York, Palma. They're saying that there's also gonna be the Miami, Palma and even Chicago, I think. So it's being increasingly, increasingly popular. And especially with American audience.
- [52:32]
Dan Rubenstein
With Americans, we love a good direct flight. That is the most important thing. And why do you think a lot of Americans are coming to Mallorca beyond the direct flight? What do you hear from them that makes them say, I would rather be here than in Greece or in the Caribbean or, you know, anywhere else? Is it just the.
- [52:55]
Stefan Relic
I think it's a combination of everything. The climb, the people, the food, history. I think that's like a perfect combo.
- [53:07]
Dan Rubenstein
And is it hard to find property in Mallorca that, you know, you guys are looking for things with a sort of a historic character that hasn't been demolished, you know, completely, that nothing that's too contemporary. Is it hard to find those properties now?
- [53:22]
Paolo Valcic
Depending on what your criteria is. As you said, we have our niche that we're looking for. So for us, it needs to be several criteria. It needs to be first, that it has historical charm and history and so on. But then it needs to. The property itself, it needs to have a potential in terms of layout, in terms of exterior space. So for what we kind of focus on, there are several criteria that it needs to fulfill. And we are being kind of. We have, let's say, high standards in terms of what we want our final product to be. And in that way, it is, for us, a bit hard to find the right property. And usually the best properties are off market and they're not published and stuff like that. So I would say that it's not very hard, but it's not very easy either. You need to kind of find your way around and even get the contacts from local people. For example, the second property that we're working on right now, this property came to us directly. So it was local people that saw what we were doing. And they didn't have the house published. They came to us and they offered seeing what we do and how we renovate the houses with respecting the history. And they said they wanted to leave it in the hands of someone like us that would renovate that house with care and with respect, you know, so it's once you get here and when you get the right contacts, it's in a way easy, but it's not. It's not very easy.
- [54:51]
Dan Rubenstein
If someone were to come to the islands, maybe for the first time, obviously we all know Ibiza is not that far away. What is a perfect week in the islands like to you? If I said, I'm coming to the islands for the first time ever, and which I've never been, so what would you say is a good, you know, seven days in the three islands?
- [55:15]
Paolo Valcic
Oof. I think seven days is not enough. Seven days is not even enough for Mallorca. Mallorca itself is huge. You could spend here. I mean, just we know local people that lived there for their whole life in Mallorca, and they say they're still discovering the island. And it really is like that. So it wouldn't definitely be enough.
- [55:34]
Dan Rubenstein
Highlights, highlights, highlights.
- [55:36]
Paolo Valcic
Yeah. But I would say in Palma, probably it would be, I'd say like four days in Majorca. Maybe one day to discover Palma, one day to discover some of the beautiful towns like inside of the island, and then do two days of beautiful beaches. Then probably two days of Menorca, which is much more wild, untouched, beautiful beaches as well. And then two days of Ibiza, one crazy night in Ibiza, and then. And then back home to recover.
- [56:08]
Dan Rubenstein
One night only.
- [56:09]
Paolo Valcic
Okay, tonight's enough. One night is enough. Yeah. More days in Ibiza could be intense.
- [56:22]
Dan Rubenstein
And if you guys had to leave Mallorca and go to another island, which island will you go to?
- [56:33]
Paolo Valcic
I'm not sure if there's one that could really compare to Mallorca in terms of satisfying, I would say, at least our needs of day to day life. This is, again, I can't say this in how I think Mallorca is perfect because it offers you best of both worlds. You have the island, you have beautiful beaches, you have beautiful nature, but still you have this really developed infrastructure of everything in terms of cultural life, in terms of hospitals, in terms of healthcare, in terms of absolutely everything. So I really am not sure if at least in Europe there's an island that could offer you all of that. It would have to be like if maybe one day we wanted a much calmer life. That might be maybe Menorca here or some of the islands in Greece, which I doubt because they're very small. But yeah, I think it would be hard to replace Mallorca with everything that it offers.
- [57:31]
Dan Rubenstein
And I guess my last question I was going to ask earlier, how would you describe. Because both of you have lived there for a long time now, but you're not from there originally. So as Croats, how do you perceive the Majorcan people in sorts of like their sort of cultural attitudes compared to someone from Italy, someone from, you know, Split, or someone from the UK or an American? Like, what is that Mallorcan character like?
- [58:08]
Stefan Relic
I would say I would start first because I'm from the island. So I guess it has to do something with. People from the island are very specific in some kind of way. They are like protective because island is a small piece of land and in the past sources were very limited. So some kind somehow people's mind are stick to this. And people here also, and people in Croatia, on the Croatia islands are just somehow protective, which sometimes can be or sound like they are not welcoming. They don't want to give you something or whatever. But it on contrary, people are very kind, giving and very warm everywhere on the island.
- [59:21]
Dan Rubenstein
Yeah.
- [59:21]
Paolo Valcic
And especially I would maybe go a bit more general with the reply, not only Ireland, I would just talk about Spanish people in general because I don't think the typical Mallorcan mentality doesn't really vary a lot from a typical mainland Spanish. But I would just say that for me, I absolutely love Spanish people, love Spanish culture. And we always say we've been living here for eight years. I've been living in Spain before, when I was studying many years ago. So for me it's in total 12 years living in Spain. And I don't see myself living in any other country. And it's because of people here. I absolutely love Spanish people, Spanish culture, Spanish mentality. They're so open, so fun. They love living the life. They're warm, open, welcoming. They just enjoy the life. They love their. They barely ever eat at home. They love their breakfast in the bar, their lunch in the restaurant, their laughs. They just love living the life. And this is what I love so much about living in Spain, because people here are really, really amazing.
- [60:27]
Dan Rubenstein
Thank you to all of my guests, as well as to our sponsor, Janice Ac, for making this episode happen. The editor of the Grand Tourist is Stan Hall. To keep this going, don't forget to visit our website and sign up for our newsletter. The Grand Tourist curator@thegrandtourist.net and follow me on Instagram at danrubenstein. And don't forget to follow the Grand Tourist on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to listen. And leave us a rating or comment. Every little bit helps. Till next time.