← The Grand Tourist with Dan Rubinstein
The Grand Tourist with Dan Rubinstein
Martin Parr: A Photography Great Who Turned a Lens on Society
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- [00:00]
Martin Parr
You know, we have 5,000 photography students turn every year here. Most of them fail in photography, certainly photography of their own work. You know, they think photography is easy, but it's not.
- [00:12]
Dan Rubenstein
Hi, I'm Dan Rubenstein and this is the Grand Tourist. I've been a design journalist for more than 20 years and this is my personalized guided tour through the worlds of fashion, art, architecture, food and travel. All the elements of a well lived life. The history of photography and a young art form comparatively to others is marked by those who push the boundaries of what constitutes a compelling and meaningful image, oftentimes merging the profound with the mundane. My guest today is one of those artists who use this camera to portray, sometimes harshly, sometimes humorously, sometimes both, to uncover a slice of everyday life that didn't tend to make the front page of any newspaper or magazine. British photographer Martin Parr. Like most of his works, from shooting young women in fur coats in a Russian McDonald's to ornate and proper middle class bedrooms, Martin Parr elevated the ordinary world in ways few others could. Sadly, Martin Parr lost his battle with cancer shortly after our interview. But as you'll hear in this episode, he truly experienced the well lived life through his numerous books, his family and his own foundation in Bristol that makes great photography accessible to all and continues to this day. Like so many Brits and very much like his own photographs, I found Martin to be witty, concise, charming and forthcoming. Luckily for his fans and to anyone looking to explore his incredible career, we can now learn so much about the trajectory of his life and work in a new book out in March from Rizzoli titled Utterly Lazy and Inattentive Martin Parr. My words, my photographs, which we'll get into. I spoke with the artist from his foundation to speak about how his family gently encouraged him to pick up a camera. How his early projects were first ignored by publishers, his transition to color, how he famously got accepted to the Magnum Photo Agency amidst controversy, the one photograph that got away and much more.
- [02:19]
Interviewer
And I'd love to start at the beginning because that's actually the book kind of goes through your life and career and the way that these things kind of intertwine. And I read that you were, you were raised, you were sort of born in Epsom, which is kind of south of London, is that right?
- [02:32]
Martin Parr
That's right, in Surrey, the county of Surrey. It's a quite boring place. And the only advantage of having been born in a boring place is everywhere else feels quite exciting.
- [02:41]
Interviewer
And you know, what did your parents do, by the way?
- [02:44]
Martin Parr
Well, they're both. My father, father was a civil servant, but a very keen bird watcher. My mother did a bit of part time work but looked after the kids as well.
- [02:53]
Interviewer
Ah, okay. And I read that both your parents sort of volunteered and did things in the war and stuff like that.
- [02:59]
Martin Parr
Yes, that's right, yeah, yeah. I think my father was in the communications. He learned Morse code and such like.
- [03:07]
Interviewer
Oh, okay.
- [03:08]
Martin Parr
I don't know exactly. I think he was in the department later on he was in the Department of the Environment. So I'm not exactly sure what he was in way back in the war.
- [03:16]
Interviewer
And was it a kind of a strict household, was it, or anything like that?
- [03:20]
Martin Parr
Yeah, quite strict, yeah, yeah. I mean we didn't get caned or anything. I have a sister seven years younger. But what we didn't do is go to seaside resorts. If we went to the seaside it'd be to spot waders. So that's where my pent up affection for the seaside has come from. I'm trying to catch up with all those lost trips in my childhood.
- [03:42]
Interviewer
And obviously the book is called Utterly Lazy and Inattentive, which is detailed in why it's called that in the book. It's sort of one of your report cards. So that's why I do.
- [03:53]
Martin Parr
Yeah, my French teacher wrote this. I was pretty useless at French, there's no doubt about it. But that phrase, of course, immediately rang a bell and I took the report back to my parents and my mother tore it up, but luckily I had the sense to actually sell it, tape it up again. And that's what you see in the book is the original report.
- [04:13]
Interviewer
And what kind of memories of birdwatching did they like bring you on those things or is that something that they.
- [04:19]
Martin Parr
Did on their own? Yes, they did. We went to, as I mentioned, places like Pagham harbor, but every Saturday my father would go to Hersham Sewage Works. Hirsham Sewage Works was on the main line between Bristol. No, between Bournemouth and London. So trains were going by, so I started being a train spotter. But on these. So he would put these nets up where birds would fly in and they'd put little metal rings on and then you trace migration through that system and there's a whole pile of shit. And on this shit were tomato plants because tomatoes go right through the human system. But they never ripened, they're always green. But we used to pick them and my mother would make green tomato chutney, but only after the tomatoes have been thoroughly washed.
- [05:05]
Interviewer
Oh, I can assure you. I hope so. I Hope so. And I read that your grandfather was an amateur photographer and he got got you your first camera, is that right?
- [05:17]
Martin Parr
Indeed, yeah. He lent me a camera, went out shooting processed film, made print. So I think by the age of 13 or 14 I decided by then I was going to be a photographer.
- [05:26]
Interviewer
And like, what kind of camera was it?
- [05:29]
Martin Parr
I think it was something like an AGFA or something or other. It's a roll film camera. I think I've got it somewhere but I don't know what it is exactly. Yeah, so it's pretty basic, but it did the job.
- [05:40]
Interviewer
What kind of pictures did your grandfather take?
- [05:42]
Martin Parr
Quite romantic ones. He was in the Brom Oil circle. Brom Oil is a process where you bleach out the picture on matte paper and then re ink it so you can control these the tones very easily. So it's a bit like an early version of Photoshop but done manually.
- [05:58]
Interviewer
And when you got your own camera and when you were you loaned, maybe you borrowed your grandfathers, like what did you, what kind of first photos did you take? Because some of them are detailed in the book.
- [06:07]
Martin Parr
In the book there's a picture of the horse, a tree and a woman. And that's one picture. I thought, wow, this is exciting because, you know, it doesn't look too bad even now. But back in the day I was over the moon about this picture and thought, right, there's really something here to explore and that's what I'm going to do. So that's exactly what I did over the next 60 years.
- [06:28]
Interviewer
And the book kind of mentions that your family was somewhat involved in religion and somewhat religious and taught, I think we were called Sunday school and Methodist background.
- [06:37]
Martin Parr
Yeah.
- [06:37]
Interviewer
Yes. And you kind of like rebel a little bit against that. How did that go?
- [06:43]
Martin Parr
Yeah, I guess, you know, I liked arguing with the Sunday school teachers about religion. So that was quite fun, you know, and that sort of honed your ability to argue in public and think things through. So yeah, I quite enjoyed it being, you know, in Awkward.
- [07:00]
Interviewer
And one of the things I didn't know about, I guess I could say post war British history was the Great Freeze of 1962, which I it mentions. That was kind of one of your first little photo outings. I think there's a picture of your dad or something.
- [07:13]
Martin Parr
The first photo I remember taking is of my father stood on the frozen stream in I think 62 or 63. And it was very cold winter, I mean exceptionally cold. And I do remember that. And I remember taking the picture of him stood on the local stream with his binoculars on.
- [07:30]
Interviewer
And sort of when it came time to go to school, I think you had something published in sort of like a school journal or something like that before you went to, to study photography. Do you remember that essay or what was published?
- [07:47]
Martin Parr
Yes, it was an essay about Thames Ditton, which is the area where the school was. And we had a very good craft teacher who liked photography and he bought this magazine called Creative Camera and this would show the American photographers from the 60s, Winogrand, Frank et al. So that was the way I got to see some of those amazing American photographers who of course were leading the way at that point in time in terms of language and photography.
- [08:15]
Interviewer
And what was the kind of like when you looked at these photos? I think there's like a Robert Frank book that you had been really obsessed with. And like what, what was kind of what spoke to you about them, like what made them.
- [08:26]
Martin Parr
Well, they're just great photos, you know, I recognized immediately why they were good and, and how they were good. So, you know, these were my heroes.
- [08:34]
Interviewer
Once you saw it published in this sort of magazine, that kind of inspired you to go to study in Manchester, Correct?
- [08:42]
Martin Parr
Well, I knew then, you know, solidly. So, yeah, I wanted to go to a photography course and study, you know, BA in photography. So I got places in three colleges but the, the, my first choice wouldn't let me in because I only got one A level and you needed two. So I had to go to Manchester, which in a sense was a great blessing because, you know, Manchester opened up all these opportunities for me. If I'd gone to my other college, I don't know what I'd have done. I don't think I'd be sat on the couch here right now.
- [09:11]
Interviewer
What was it about Manchester like, in the way that they taught?
- [09:15]
Martin Parr
Well, it was more than people I was with, you know, because in my year there was someone called Daniel Meadows. Two years above me was Brian Griffin. You may not know these names, but they're very famous here. And so we had a great time, you know, working and talking together and you know, the teachers were fine, but it gave me a chance to go and do big projects. Like I did one on Prestwich Mental Hospital over a long period. It's probably the most thorough, the first thorough project that I did and that I did in college time, of course.
- [09:46]
Interviewer
And like, what was the photography world like when you were studying? Were they more training you to be, you know, fine art photographers or they training you to be sort of commercial photographers?
- [09:57]
Martin Parr
No, they're definitely commercial was the name of the game. And you know, I had no desire to be a commercial photographer, even though I am one now. So I just got on with my own work and almost ignored that. But yeah, they, they were all, you know, they wanted you to be an assistant to a photographer and then become a photographer in your own right.
- [10:17]
Interviewer
Did you?
- [10:17]
Martin Parr
None of us did that.
- [10:20]
Interviewer
And what, what do you think it was about that group of people that were all going there at the same time? Like, what was, what, what was kind of.
- [10:25]
Martin Parr
I think first we all love photography and secondly, I guess we didn't have a particular interest in earning a living photography by doing advertising or such.
- [10:33]
Interviewer
Like, was there anyone at the time that you were kind of looking up to while you were in school that you. Someone famous or anything like that that kind of like said, gave you a little bit of inspiration to know what you.
- [10:46]
Martin Parr
I guess Tony Ray Jones was a British photographer who went over to America to study the same people I've just been talking about and came back with the sort of modern photographic language that he'd learned in America. And then he applied it to the UK in particular in England and did a great body of work in the late 60s. But sadly he died in 62, very young of leukemia. So I never met him. But he's left behind an amazing body of work which I still look up to now. It's one of the best bodies of work about Britain in the post war at all.
- [11:25]
Interviewer
And one of your first projects that's kind of described in the book and kind of your kind of walk through it is called the Nonconformists and it sort of documents a mill town again and it's like a Baptist Methodist community there, which must have felt slightly familiar for you. How did that project come about? How did you decide to go to that specific town?
- [11:44]
Martin Parr
Well, I moved to Hebden Bridge two years after college and I thought this is my chance to photograph the community and the sense of community. And I suppose I'd experienced that in a positive way through my grandfather. So I started looking at the non conformist chapels around and found this to be an interesting subject matter and in the end chose one particular chapel to concentrate on, which is Crimson Methodist Chapel. And this is run by farmers who are all getting on a bit. But it gave me a chance to meet them, go back to their farms and to photograph their farming life as well as their chapel life.
- [12:17]
Interviewer
And what, what is the non conforming part of it to like an American?
- [12:22]
Martin Parr
Well, I guess it's. It's A. Do you not have non conformist chapels in America?
- [12:26]
Interviewer
Not that I'm aware of. But then again, I mean it's, it's.
- [12:29]
Martin Parr
They're getting away from the Church of England with more rigorous or, or say Catholic. You know, it's much more open. It's just not as serious and intimidating as the Church of England or the Catholic Church.
- [12:42]
Interviewer
Oh, I see. Okay. And what about them kind of like fascinated you?
- [12:47]
Martin Parr
Well, just the people who went there, you know, older generation, generally speaking, you know, and photographing during services was a very good opportunity. And then they had for the anniversary, which is their birthday, they would have, you know, they would have an afternoon tea. I always photograph this not only in crimson but in other places. So yeah, there's plenty going on for me to photograph.
- [13:10]
Interviewer
And so in the early 90s, you kind of start traveling more and you're shooting in places like Helsinki and Russia and these kind of eastern locales. How did that happen?
- [13:20]
Martin Parr
Well, I guess first off I became professor of photography in Helsinki. That gave me easy access to St. Petersburg. You can get a train to it. And I guess by then I was, you know, a European photographer rather than just a British one, and was starting to get the work out and being shown in Europe after particularly the 1986 Arle Festival being a very important place to launch books and work. So that's the thing that really sort of kicked me into being a European appreciated photographer.
- [13:56]
Interviewer
And like, what were those? I'm just curious what Russia was like when you were there in the early 90s, because it was such a.
- [14:01]
Martin Parr
Well, look at the photographs, you know, it's pretty grim really. I photograph the queue at McDonald's. It's the only time they've allowed me to photograph there. When I go, I mean, I do go to McDonald's occasionally and photograph and if they see you'd just be thrown out. Yeah, There is plenty more McDonald's, wherever you are.
- [14:19]
Interviewer
And there's an amazing photo of what looks like a kind of a small room or an attic with a window at the end of it, kind of brightly lit and there's a bunch of sort of middle aged men in chairs and it's. It's called the Ancient Order of Henpecked Husbands.
- [14:36]
Martin Parr
That's right.
- [14:36]
Interviewer
Tell. Tell what? Tell me of what that organ is. It says in the book that you were allowed to only experience the first.
- [14:44]
Martin Parr
Part of the Indeed meeting and then they were married.
- [14:47]
Interviewer
Ah, okay.
- [14:49]
Martin Parr
What was.
- [14:49]
Interviewer
Yeah, what was this group about?
- [14:52]
Martin Parr
They were basically taking the piss out of the Freemasons and This is how they did it. So they invented this thing. And of course it goes back to the, you know, the idea that women are henpecking the men all the time and they had to have a note from their wife just so they wouldn't be henpecked on this particular day.
- [15:09]
Interviewer
Okay, that sounds amazing. And like, what about that moment? Did you kind of like feel like, oh, it sticks out in your mind that you want to have it in the book?
- [15:20]
Martin Parr
Yeah, I mean, we did the book much later. I tried to get it published at the time, but no one would bite. So I think 20 years later we got the book out. My wife, who's a very good writer, wrote the text and that was it. We were able to put all this.
- [15:33]
Interviewer
Information in and from when you first, you know, tried to show people around this, the, the non conformists, like, what kind of feedback did you get if you tried to get it published? Like, what kind of what people say?
- [15:47]
Martin Parr
Well, I mean, they just didn't say they what? They said they didn't want to do it. Simple as that.
- [15:53]
Interviewer
Well, you didn't get any bad feedback at least?
- [15:54]
Martin Parr
Well, I mean, when the book came out eventually, then I got quite good feedback, in fact.
- [15:59]
Interviewer
Yeah, I'm sure you did. I mean, it's kind of. These are amazing photos. It kind of surprises me that no one jumped at the opportunity the first time around. And in this sort of early part of your career, like, what was your bread and butter? How were you sort of paying the bills?
- [16:12]
Martin Parr
First off, I did some teaching in a school and then I went and go teaching in colleges, so teaching, really. It's only when I joined Magnum that I was able to drop the teaching to the extent that I don't do it now, in fact.
- [16:28]
Interviewer
And what kind of teacher were you back in those days?
- [16:31]
Martin Parr
Supportive, looking for things in people's work which could be built on or improved on.
- [16:36]
Interviewer
In the early 80s, this sort of switch to flash and color photography kind of begins in your work and also in the book. And there's a little bit of going back and forth with black and white, I think, for a little bit. Did you kind of. Do you remember that time in terms of like switching over to color and like, what was that?
- [16:55]
Martin Parr
Like, that was a big event, really. I mean, again, we'd seen the color pictures from, you know, the likes of Eggleston, Shaw or Mayots from America. So that gave us the confidence to think you could take a photograph in color and still have it exhibited. And they just introduced this Plowbell camera, which is A medium format, six by seven and had a wide angle one which I bought. And this is a perfect camera for me to start shooting. New Brighton, the seaside resort just down the road.
- [17:25]
Interviewer
And did you. Was it challenging to kind of go into color if it had been new for the time or did you kind of just.
- [17:31]
Martin Parr
I find it pretty easy to slip into it. So it was no problem. I did very few projects after that in black and white. I more or less just stayed to color, I think two or three years. I did a few in black and white and then it's color all the way and it's been color ever since.
- [17:45]
Interviewer
Did you have to change any way in which you worked or how you took photos or.
- [17:48]
Martin Parr
No, no, no. I. I'm surprisingly. I did the contact prints in black and white, but I couldn't afford to do color ones. So I judged the pictures on how they looked graphically and just expect the colors to come in and contribute.
- [18:01]
Interviewer
And you know, you brought up, you know, one of your most well known projects. It's so beautifully documented in the book the Last Resort. Tell us about this New Brighton. And like this part of the world.
- [18:14]
Martin Parr
That'S part of the uk, you know, it's during the Thatcher period, so it's really run down litter everywhere and. But still people went there for their day trip with the kids and everything. So I wanted to contrast the sort of shabby backdrop with the, you know, the children being entertained and, you know, going paddling and doing all the other things that kids do. So it's that contrast that I was trying to show.
- [18:39]
Interviewer
And there are these photos where you, you remark that people didn't realize that you were there. Like no one was kind of like too aware.
- [18:45]
Martin Parr
It wasn't a hassle really. I mean, people from Liverpool, Scousers they're called, are very friendly. I photograph kids. I mean, in a way now you couldn't do the same because children, you know, we understand why, you know, if you start photographing them, parents want to know what exactly you're up to.
- [19:03]
Interviewer
Yeah, unfortunately. And you know, what is that? You mentioned that, like the book, you got some criticism for sort of documenting working class people. Did people think, oh, hey, you're criticizing, you're kind of making fun of them or you're kind of exploiting, I don't know, trying to point out something. What was their criticism about?
- [19:27]
Martin Parr
Yeah, it was basically what you just said. Yeah, yeah. And that particularly was the case. We showed the work first in Liverpool and then when it went down to the Serpentine in London, that's when people really criticized it.
- [19:39]
Interviewer
And obviously there was another. Oh gosh, I'm forgetting the name of the other, the project that kind of showed the flip side of that that comes after.
- [19:46]
Martin Parr
In the book the Cost of Living.
- [19:48]
Interviewer
Yes, the Cost of Living. Tell me about that. Because that was also a Thatcher period and kind of this new.
- [19:53]
Martin Parr
No, because people said, how does middle class photographer photograph the working class? And I thought there's a valid point there. So I'd like to photograph the middle class, my own class, if you like. And in order to achieve that, because Liverpool's the least middle class city in the country, probably, we decided we need to move. So Susie looked for another job and got a job in Bristol, which is an ideal city to land in.
- [20:19]
Interviewer
And like the Cost of Living, what was that kind of. What were you trying to sort of capture or get across with that, with that series?
- [20:26]
Martin Parr
I was just showing what life was like for middle classes.
- [20:32]
Interviewer
Is there a photo from the Cost of Living that maybe you put in the book that you kind of thought really captured that?
- [20:40]
Martin Parr
Not particularly. I mean, you need to hold pictures together to make sense of it or it's no good singling out one photo.
- [20:47]
Interviewer
And when coming up with a photo project like this, whether it's the Cost of living or the last resort, how do you know when to. It might sound like a silly question, but like how do you know when to end and how much you need to make a project really?
- [21:04]
Martin Parr
You sort of know when it's. You've got to saturation and you think, you know, I've said it all I need to say now and now's the time to get it out in the world. So I don't hang around and linger on these projects. You know, I tend to get them out pretty quick, pretty sharpish. And that's why I've done so many books.
- [21:21]
Interviewer
And I also in the book it mentions that you had an incident in Albania where you were arrested.
- [21:27]
Martin Parr
That's right, yeah.
- [21:28]
Interviewer
Oh, gosh. So what was. Why were you in Albania? And well, it's just after the wall.
- [21:32]
Martin Parr
Had fallen in Germany. And of course at that point the speculation was what other countries are going to, you know, are they going to crumble? And the one that no one really knew the answer to was Albania. It's probably the strictest communist regime in Europe, so it's very difficult to get to Albania as a journalist or anything. So there was advertised a coach trip of Roman ruins of Albania. I signed up for that and lo and behold, when I met everyone at the joined the bus. Everyone was a journalist.
- [22:05]
Interviewer
Oh, gosh. Okay.
- [22:06]
Martin Parr
And none of us were interested, particularly in Roman Albania. So he did go around, and then, you know, in the breakfast. No, in the mornings and in the evenings, we'd be able to go out and photograph, you know. And that's how I got arrested. But of course, they couldn't. They didn't. They didn't speak English. They didn't know what to do with me, so they just took me back to the hotel and dumped me there.
- [22:27]
Interviewer
Did you remember what you were taking a picture of when they arrested you?
- [22:29]
Martin Parr
I can't know.
- [22:31]
Interviewer
But was it anything like sensitive or anything like that?
- [22:34]
Martin Parr
No, I don't think so. No, no, no. I mean, North Korea is the country where you're not allowed to go out without a police escort or without a guide with you.
- [22:44]
Interviewer
Right.
- [22:45]
Martin Parr
But in Albania, they didn't mind. And I just walked into places. I'd walk into barbers, I'd walk into snooker halls, walk into bakers, and no one battered an eyelid, really. And of course, they couldn't. They're intimidated by the fact that I was this big, tall European who couldn't speak Albanian.
- [23:03]
Interviewer
That's funny. Were you happy with the. Did they let you keep the film that you had shot?
- [23:08]
Martin Parr
Sure, yeah.
- [23:09]
Interviewer
They didn't, like, dramatically spool it out of your camera and expose the film or anything?
- [23:13]
Martin Parr
No, it's fine.
- [23:14]
Interviewer
Oh, lovely. And in the book, you mentioned your uniqueness in Magnum Photos and how you had been, I think, admitted twice. Yes. Tell me about that process, because it sounds like, well, you know, Magnum Photographers.
- [23:31]
Martin Parr
To become a member and an Associate, you need 66% of the vote. So that's of members who are active. And so I just scraped in, both when I became an associate and when I became a member. But the membership thing, I phoned up and they said, yes, you're in. And then half an hour later, someone phoned up and said, I'm sorry, you're out, because someone's walked in and voted against you. And then Burt Glynn came in from his sickbed. He had food poisoning and voted for me. So I finally got in, hence entering it twice.
- [24:06]
Interviewer
How did the idea for the book start?
- [24:10]
Martin Parr
Well, there's this woman called Wendy Jones who I met, and she had done a biography of Grayson Perry about eight or 10 years ago, and she said, why don't we do one of me? And so she came down to Bristol, she asked some questions, but my answers were very short. And therefore, we concluded that this wasn't going to work. And then she came back eight years later and suggested that I select 150 pictures, we put them on the screen and then I would talk about them. And that turned out to be a lot better. That's basically what it is. So it's, you know, she transcribed it, she knocked it all together, made sense of it all. And that's the book, you know, in.
- [24:49]
Interviewer
The world today of street photography. There's so much talk when people kind of like create content about, you know, how to be a street photographer or how to be a, you know, documentary photographer. You know, how to be. How to be inobtrusive, how to disappear, how not to become noticed in a way that affects your work. Like, is. Is there a sort of a Martin Parr way of doing that or the way you kind of naturally do it that you think has worked for you?
- [25:24]
Martin Parr
I don't know, really. I mean, I just. People say I don't look very visible. You know, I'm tall and I got a big camera and I just hang around really, sort of pointlessly, seemingly. But there's always purpose there.
- [25:39]
Interviewer
Does it require a certain kind of patience, I'm assuming?
- [25:43]
Martin Parr
Well, of course, you know, patience is a key part of photography and as is luck, you know, so, you know, we all want to take good photos, those iconic ones that are so rare. But if you went out in the morning and said, I'm only going to take good photos today, you wouldn't start because, you know, you have to get wound up, you have to get a bit of momentum going and then the photos may happen.
- [26:05]
Interviewer
And over time. Was there any kind of particular camera or format that you just kind of took to for the majority of your work?
- [26:13]
Martin Parr
I guess, you know, in black and white. I use a 35 mil camera with a 35 mil lens. And, you know, in color, I had the Plow Bell, then later on the Mamiya 6. Now I just use a boring canon 5D.
- [26:24]
Interviewer
Oh, okay.
- [26:25]
Martin Parr
Well, that's a reliable camera.
- [26:27]
Interviewer
That's, that's. And how was that sort of transition to digital for you?
- [26:33]
Martin Parr
No problem. Actually. 2008.
- [26:35]
Interviewer
Okay.
- [26:36]
Martin Parr
Just when they started making full frame cameras. So that became, you know, it became a lot easier.
- [26:42]
Interviewer
Were you like, were you an early adopter? Did you kind of.
- [26:45]
Martin Parr
No, not early. I was mid distance.
- [26:48]
Interviewer
Okay.
- [26:49]
Martin Parr
Some people, you know, to this very day haven't converted.
- [26:52]
Interviewer
Yep.
- [26:52]
Martin Parr
And some people convert back, as you know.
- [26:54]
Interviewer
That is very true. And I, I've interviewed other photographers. It's like, oh, it's just. There's too much. They're complaining about digital photography is there's so much you can do digitally that it kind of ruins the art form in some way. Do you agree with that?
- [27:08]
Martin Parr
Not really, no. I think, you know, we're all storytellers, so the stronger the story, the better the work, generally speaking.
- [27:15]
Interviewer
And obviously in putting together this book that kind of goes step by step in a lot of milestones and memories in your life now that it's all collected in one place, you know, and you can really kind of sit down and literally flip through the entire thing. Is there anything that now you realize, looking back about your life or career that maybe you didn't realize before?
- [27:36]
Martin Parr
Well, I guess the biggest thing is just keeping at was so easy to stop and also doing work for yourself as opposed to just commissions, that's important.
- [27:46]
Interviewer
And like, did you ever consider stopping?
- [27:48]
Martin Parr
Because.
- [27:49]
Interviewer
Only because you mentioned.
- [27:49]
Martin Parr
No, not really. Why? No, I have no desire at all to stop. I've got the bug and, you know, I'm a lifer. I go on until I have to stop.
- [28:00]
Interviewer
Oh, gosh.
- [28:00]
Martin Parr
I mean, I've got cancer now. I've got myeloma.
- [28:03]
Interviewer
Oh, no. I'm so sorry.
- [28:04]
Martin Parr
I may be forced to stop at some point. Who knows? At the moment I'm okay.
- [28:08]
Interviewer
And are you good to hear. Are you someone who kind of carries a camera around with you?
- [28:13]
Martin Parr
No. Everywhere. I have my iPhone with me and they're good enough now to get a half decent photograph on, but they wouldn't blow up to a meter by meter and a half, which is what I need for a big print sale.
- [28:27]
Interviewer
And so tell me about the Martin Parr Foundation. Like sort of why you started in.
- [28:31]
Martin Parr
20, we opened in 2017. We're a space where we promote and give access, you know, publicity to other British documentary photographers and Irish ones. And we do three shows a year. We have a membership scheme, we have a gallery, we have an archive with 10,000 prints in and we have all the magazines and all the main British books on photography.
- [28:55]
Interviewer
And when, when you first had this idea to do it, like, what, what was the main driver? Why was it, why was it.
- [29:00]
Martin Parr
Because I think other British photographers are underrated. I've been very lucky, you know, I've. I've had a good career and I've accumulated the money to do a project like this.
- [29:09]
Interviewer
And why do you, why do you think there's sort of so many British photographers haven't been able to get a certain kind of recognition or.
- [29:15]
Martin Parr
I just don't know. I don't understand it really. I mean, you Know, Americans, none of us would ever have shows in America. I mean, Killip lived in America for many, many years. But, you know, I would never get a museum show in America, full stop, while there's, you know, I've had museum shows in every European capital, more or less, and places like Paris, more than. More than one. I mean, you tell me, why are the Americans so disinterested in other people?
- [29:44]
Interviewer
Oh, gosh, how much time do we have? Yeah, we're endlessly fascinated with ourselves, perhaps. And so therefore that is. And there's. There's too many of us to disagree on every, on. On just about everything, so it's, it's kind of hard to find.
- [30:02]
Martin Parr
I was only joking, of course.
- [30:04]
Interviewer
Well, I don't know. Nowadays you never know. But later in the book, there's a spread on, on Black Lives Matter protest in London where a statue was torn down kind of famously and thrown into the. Into a river. And you kind of describe it as like a, A real, like a sort of greatest regret in your career that it kind of haunts you.
- [30:25]
Martin Parr
Yes, because that was in Bristol and, and I, I met everyone at the place where they congregated, then they marched off into the town and I got about 10 minutes along and I thought, I've there's nothing more to see here. I'm going to go home. And that's when the moment they tore down the statue and threw it in the dock here in the. In Bristol. So I missed the biggest international story coming from Bristol in the last 50 years. Only like two minutes away from it, for me, actually catching it.
- [30:55]
Interviewer
Ah, so it was really more the Bristol aspect, perhaps? Yeah. Oh, I see. And how would you describe sort of your career, you know, health and almost standing. Like, what is. How do you kind of choose projects now and kind of like, what interests you?
- [31:10]
Martin Parr
Well, I get offered projects and I choose where to go. It's as simple as that. And so I give priority to my own work. But at the same time, you know, I take on. I do fashion, I do documentary, I do portraits, I do, you know, surprisingly, quite a lot of editorial assignments, given that they're meant to disappeared. So, yeah, I have a pretty good. I have a pretty good. I mean, I have a pretty good life anyway, because, you know, I've traveled the world being a photographer. I've collected all the books from all over the world. I've had a fantastic career and it's still going on. I can't. I can hardly believe it. I'm doing my hobby and someone's paying Me to do it.
- [31:47]
Interviewer
And when it comes to fashion, there are some amazing fashion photos in the book. Little bits here and there. Lots of stuff on the beach, of course. Like, do you like that kind of fat?
- [31:57]
Martin Parr
Yeah, yeah.
- [31:57]
Interviewer
Do you take to it like kind of. Is it fun. Fun for you or is it a lot of like, you know.
- [32:01]
Martin Parr
I like doing fashion. And what was your first one, do you remember? I've done a whole book of fashion photographs. Have you seen it?
- [32:09]
Interviewer
I haven't seen that one, no.
- [32:11]
Martin Parr
Fashion Faux pas, it's called.
- [32:12]
Interviewer
Okay, do you remember?
- [32:14]
Martin Parr
First one was Amica magazine. They were the people that first gave me that fashion project. We went to Rimini and I think there's one of those in the book.
- [32:22]
Interviewer
Yes, there's like a guy in a Speedo flexing and there's a woman next to me. That's right, in a beautiful gown, if I'm remembering correctly. And so what's next for you after this book? This is. Have you thought like another book?
- [32:36]
Martin Parr
I'm doing a picture in Paris in January in Je le Paume, which is an amazing gallery. And there we're going to look at the politics of my work a lot closer. So it's a new project, so I'm looking forward to that. I've just currently got on in Nuremberg in Germany, a big project called Hotel Grand Hotel Par, where they've converted the gallery into a hotel. And around the hotel they have all my books. Like I've done 170, if you include the ones that I've edited. So they have every single one in that exhibition.
- [33:09]
Interviewer
And if you had to give a bit of advice to someone who wanted to pick up a camera and as I'm sure people ask you this all.
- [33:15]
Martin Parr
The time, Every time, every time.
- [33:16]
Interviewer
But I have to ask, what I.
- [33:18]
Martin Parr
Say is find the right subject, make the connection to the subject, start shooting. Possibly something's going to happen.
- [33:27]
Interviewer
And if you had.
- [33:28]
Martin Parr
But most people fail, remember?
- [33:30]
Interviewer
Ah, okay, is.
- [33:31]
Martin Parr
Except, I mean, you know, we have 5, 000 photography students turned out every year here. Most of them fail in photography. Very few of them do photography. Certainly photography of. Of their own work, you know.
- [33:45]
Interviewer
Why do you think that is?
- [33:46]
Martin Parr
I mean, God knows how many students shown that in America. Must be treble that number, don't you think?
- [33:52]
Interviewer
At least? Yes.
- [33:54]
Martin Parr
And do most of them do photography? No.
- [33:57]
Interviewer
Why do you think is the most common reason why people can't make a career out of it or go the distance?
- [34:03]
Martin Parr
It's just simple. As simple as that. I think photography is easy but it's not.
- [34:07]
Interviewer
What's the hardest thing about photography to you?
- [34:10]
Martin Parr
Yeah. Well, keeping it going, really, and, you know, digging down and finding the essence of the project you've. You've undertaken.
- [34:18]
Interviewer
Has there ever been a project where you really struggle to find that essence?
- [34:22]
Martin Parr
No. Or if there is, I wouldn't show it. There aren't really.
- [34:28]
Interviewer
Do you ever go on projects where you. You kind of go, hey, this didn't work. I tried it and it just.
- [34:32]
Martin Parr
No, no, that's.
- [34:34]
Interviewer
That's interesting.
- [34:35]
Martin Parr
I mean, some work better than others, but generally it all works because once.
- [34:39]
Interviewer
You'Ve committed to the idea, you know you've got something.
- [34:42]
Martin Parr
Is that, well, if the idea is strong, then. Then you should. Yeah, yeah.
- [34:46]
Interviewer
And if you had to describe yourself in sort of three separate words, like happy, sad, confused, what would you say?
- [34:54]
Martin Parr
You know, hardworking, obsessive, humorous.
- [35:01]
Dan Rubenstein
This episode is dedicated to the memory of Martin Parr. To join the Martin Parr foundation or to make a donation, visit martinparfoundation.org and thank you to everyone at Rizzoli and his foundation for making this episode happen. The editor of the Grand Tourist is Stan Hall. To keep this going, don't forget to visit our website and sign up for our newsletter, the Grand Tourist curator@thegrandtourist.net and follow me on Instagram danrubenstein and follow the Grand Tourists on Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to listen. And leave us a rating or comment. Every little bit helps. Till next time.