← The Grand Tourist with Dan Rubinstein
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- [00:01]
Patti LuPone
The more I act, the more I understand. As actors, we do not have to work so hard. If we trust the text, and if the text is as good as a mammoth play, you simply have to say the word. You don't have to supply a lot of extraneous stuff. You have to trust the playwright. It's not our responsibility to improve on a playwright. It's simply our responsibility to deliver the playwright's ideas.
- [00:26]
Dan Rubenstein
Hi, I'm Dan Rubenstein and this is the Grand Tourist. I've been a design journalist for more than 20 years and this is my personalized guided tour through the worlds of fashion, art, architecture, food and travel. All the elements of a well lived life. And welcome to the first episode of season 11. This fall we have some incredible episodes lined up after our summer break, so make sure you stay in touch by following us on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, and especially by signing up for our newsletter, the Grand Tourist Curator at our site thegrandtourist.net before we meet some incredible artists, architects, design designers, chefs, as well as visit some amazing locales, we have something special planned for our season premiere this summer. I've been thinking a lot about performance today in the world of the Grand Tourist. What kind of visual culture would we be in without opera, concerts, set design, the spectacle of it all? From Oskar Schlemmer's minimalist costumes for the Bauhaus to the fantastical opening ceremonies of the recent Olympics in Paris? Which brings us to today's guest. She's a singer, performer, actress of stage and screen, winner of three Tonys and two Grammys, and a rare cultural icon that crosses over so many boundaries. She defies categorization while all the while being just Simply fabulous. Patti Lupone. This fall, Ms. Lupone adds professional spellcaster to the list as she stars in the new Marvel miniseries Agatha all along that debuts today on Disney alongside Kathryn Hahn and Aubrey Plaza. Not only that, but but she's currently back on Broadway starring in a two woman show, the Roommate with her longtime personal friend Mia Farrow. To me, Patti LuPone is a fantastic paragon of the age she came up in. She was raised on Long Island, New York, much like myself in a middle class suburban household, but one destined for success. Her late brother Tony lupone was also a highly successful actor, dancer and director. Patti trained at Juilliard in the late 60s and early 70s and found herself in the midst of a cultural revolution in terms of theater. She's long credited her own success to working so closely with the likes of David Mamet and Stephen Sondheim and her career that took her all over the country as well as abroad was defined by so many performances. But two, of course, stand out more than most. She was the first Fantine in the original London production of Les Miserables, and the original Eva Perron in the pivotal Broadway musical Evita. When it comes to TV and film, she's done so much, it's almost easier to mention what she hasn't done despite all of her success, not to mention her reputation. Reputation. As someone who is no shrinking violet, what I find the most appealing about Patti is her utterly genuine journeyman's view of her career. She's good at what she does, but at the end of the day, she's here to do work and work hard and relies on the talents of others to put on a good show. I caught up with Patti LuPone from her home in New York to talk about the dark underbelly of Long island, her pioneering days at Juilliard, how she landed the role of Fantine that changed her career, her thoughts on retirement, her favorite tale of a haunted theater, and much more.
- [03:35]
Interviewer
I was wondering if you could share with me sort of your earliest memory of life as a girl in Northport.
- [03:42]
Patti LuPone
You know, it was an incredible place to grow up, because at the time, Long island was still very rural. While I was growing up, Suffolk county became the fastest growing community in America. And. But when I was growing up, it was potato farms, horse farms my dad bought where I lived on Locust Road. There were three farms, and my dad bought in the apple orchard of one farm. And my best girlfriend lived diagonally behind us on another farm. And it was just because we're surrounded by water. You know, all of our lives came alive in the summertime. And it's also Northport's very interesting because it has a dark underbelly. Oh, gosh. It's a very beautiful town. And then there have been murders, et cetera, et cetera, drugs, et cetera, et cetera. It's a highly creative vibe. And just a dark underbelly isn't interesting.
- [04:49]
Interviewer
And your parents were Italian American? Was it your. But they were born here, Correct?
- [04:54]
Patti LuPone
My parents are first generation Americans. My grandparents came from Sicily and the Abruzzo in Italy, and they grew up in Jamestown and Buffalo, N.Y. and how they ended up on Long Island, I'll never know. But I always said, how did my grandparents, the patties and the lupones, how did they go 12 hours north to Buffalo when they could have gone 12 hours east to the Hamptons?
- [05:21]
Interviewer
Right. Well, I Don't think the Hamptons were anything back then.
- [05:25]
Patti LuPone
Well, that would have been. Well, just think about it. Why weren't they. Why did they go there? I still can't figure out why they went to the. Why they went up to Buffalo. I don't know what the industry was. When I finally met my grandparents, they didn't speak any English, so I don't know what they did.
- [05:40]
Interviewer
Oh, gosh. Okay. Oh, wow. All right. Well, Buffalo was a booming town back then.
- [05:44]
Patti LuPone
They were in Jamestown and Dunkirk.
- [05:47]
Interviewer
Okay. Yeah, well, it was kind of a booming region. It was kind of like the Queen City and.
- [05:51]
Patti LuPone
Yeah. Gateway to the West.
- [05:52]
Interviewer
I went to school in Buffalo, so I can talk up western New York a little bit. Was it a strict upbringing out there in Northport with your parents?
- [06:03]
Patti LuPone
Yes, I would think. I don't know, because I was rebellious. So I can't remember if it was strict, but I think it was strict because I got in trouble a lot as a kid.
- [06:13]
Dan Rubenstein
How were you rebellious?
- [06:16]
Patti LuPone
I have a rebellious nature. I have a curious nature. I have. If you say don't, I do. It's just. It's in my DNA. It's not anything to do with. I'm going to do it because you punished me or whatever. I'm going to do it anyway. It's in my DNA that I'm incredibly curious. And that leads to problems with, I think, parents in the 50s who had to live by a certain moral code to fit into a society. And so we were Sunday Catholics. My dad was principal of the Ocean Avenue only elementary school in North. But the Ocean Avenue Elementary School. So we were held to a different standard because he had a responsibility. But then I was born. Nobody counted all that. I just. I remember when I was very, very young, I woke up in the summertime and it was a beautiful day and nobody else was awake. And I wandered outside and I crossed fields to go see my best friend at the other farm. And by the time I got there, the father was screaming, you better go home. They don't know where you were. They think. When I got home, I saw fire trucks and police cars and I hid under my bed so that I was missing for even longer. And when they finally found me, I was severely punished and never knew why. Never knew that my journey through a beautiful summer day amidst butterflies and bees and Queen's Anne's lace would be punished. So my grand. My parents brought me up the way their parents brought me up. They brought them up.
- [08:00]
Interviewer
And as a young girl. Do you remember your. How did Singing and Acting kind of first begin with you. What was the first inkling of that?
- [08:11]
Patti LuPone
When I was very young and my mother used to trip, she must have known something, because I can remember being trooped out in front of guests to do my Marilyn Monroe imitation. I couldn't have been more than three or four years old. And I mean, I didn't even know how we knew about Marilyn Monroe. But obviously from television, there was just my mom, my mom's side of the family, very boisterous, very Italian, very, you know, filled with laughter, but also filled with drama. Well, drama, but I'm trying to think of the Mafia word for it. Not that my family was Mafia, not at all. But there was a lot of drama and there was a lot of laughter and there was a lot of drama. It was high, intense emotions. So it's, you know, and I was born to the boards. I was. I knew that when I was 4 years old and it came as a surprise to my mother and my father. You just know, you know, I was tap dancing and I looked out at the audience and I fell in love with the audience and I never looked back. I knew that this is where I belonged. And my parents have no show business or theatrical inkling at all.
- [09:16]
Interviewer
Was there ever a point in your childhood, maybe this first tap dancing or anything, someone who pulled you aside and said, hey, you could go to Juilliard. You could do something with this and encourage you in that way that was very specific like that.
- [09:35]
Patti LuPone
Well, this is the story. My brother and I started dancing. Bobby fell in love with my hula skirt and started dancing with the Ms. Marguerite Dance Studio. We then moved on to the Donald and Rosalie Grant Dance Studio and then to the Andre Bonnie and their friend Betty Dance Studio. Bobby excelled at dance at one point. I don't know who encouraged this, but both of us went in to audition for the Martha Graham Dance Studio. Bobby got in. Bobby would take the Long Island Railroad after high school, 3 o'clock train into Manhattan, take classes with Martha Graham, come home on the 10 o'clock train. He became an incredibly strong modern dancer. He went to Hofstra and then he went to Juilliard. He auditioned for the dance division of Juilliard and actually came out of Juilliard. Their strongest. He majored in ballet and minored in modern because he had been studying with Martha Graham for that length of time. I, being a rebellious teenager, didn't want to go to college. I just wanted to move into New York City. I knew what I was going to do with my life. I knew Exactly. That I would end up on the Broadway musical stage because of my voice. Not that I wanted to, but that's where I knew I belonged. And Bobby came to me one day and said he had already graduated from Juilliard from the dance division, and said they were starting a drama division. And I only auditioned for my mother and my brother. And because I didn't particularly care whether I got in or not, because it was the late 60s and we were partying hardy in New York City, I got in and then I went, okay, well, I got four years here. That's how that happened. And I'm very grateful for my Juilliard training. It is the reason I am still working to this day.
- [11:25]
Interviewer
Were you a good sort of Juilliard student?
- [11:27]
Patti LuPone
No. They wanted to throw me out of school.
- [11:32]
Interviewer
Really?
- [11:33]
Patti LuPone
Why? So I'm a rambunctious human being for some reason. There's a strain in me that just wants to create havoc. It's just exciting.
- [11:51]
Interviewer
And was it, I think. Did you overlap with your brother during your time at Juilliard?
- [11:55]
Patti LuPone
No.
- [11:55]
Interviewer
Or he graduated. Right. As you were coming in, he went.
- [11:59]
Patti LuPone
He graduated. I can't remember when he graduated, but I was the first year of the drama division of the Juilliard School, and in order for them to move to Lincoln center, they had to become a complete performing arts wing. And so they had to add a drama division, much to the chagrin of Peter Menon. Because if this was the Juilliard School of Music and then these actors showed up, and I wasn't the only one that was, like, misbehaving. If we were, in fact, misbehaving, I think we were just. The creative output was allowed to happen because John Houseman found 36 of the craziest people he could find, and I was probably the least of the craziest. Yeah, it was a crazy first class. So we didn't overlap. But I have to tell you, I went to Julliard Preparatory when I was a kid because somebody thought I should be an opera singer. I had absolutely no desire to be in opera, but I have a soprano voice, and I studied with Marian Mandarin. And I never. I just was. I would smoke cigarettes on the Long Island Railroad on my way to sing opera.
- [13:10]
Interviewer
Oh, God. Yeah. Probably. Probably not the best.
- [13:15]
Patti LuPone
I had, actually a concert, I guess. A concert, whatever. And when I was done, my mother. I saw my mother and my brother's face, and they were, like, horrified. I must have stunk. I didn't even care. It was like, this is not my field. I did it because they told me to do it. Like we were told to do when we were kids. You do what you're told to do. And then when the drama division happened again, it was like, yeah, all right, I'll audition if that's what you want me to do. I don't want to do this, but okay. But then, as I said earlier, I am so grateful for my training, and I wished to this day that I had listened better at school, worked harder.
- [13:52]
Interviewer
And after school, you toured with the acting company, which was new at the time, I believe, and still around today. I was wondering if you could explain to people from your own point of view, like, what is the acting company? And why was it so beloved in such a part of history now?
- [14:12]
Patti LuPone
It was. We studied classical theater 13 hours a day, six days a week. We did classical plays. What, the Juilliard Bible. Back then. It's no longer. Back then was taking an American actor and training them in European and Russian techniques, and then doing classical theater. French plays, Italian plays, German plays, English plays, Russian plays. And then it was Mr. Hausman, John Houseman's idea to form a repertory company, sort of along the lines of the Apa Phoenix or the Mercury, have an ensemble of actors that would do classical theater. And so our class, when we graduated, he handed us an Equity card and a seat on a Domenico bus. And we took our third and our fourth year productions from Juilliard and toured them, only to discover that we only knew how to perform for three performances because that's all we ever did. And the fourth performance fell apart. So we had to learn on the road as we were working maintenance. And then, of course, these sets were not built to tour. They were built for the Juilliard, the John Houseman Theater. Now, not the Juilliard Theater, that's the Orchestra Theater at school. So the stage manager, we had a skeletal crew, stage manager, wardrobe supervisor, prop person. And they had to figure out how to load in these sets that were not built to tour. We had, and I think of them often, a bus driver, Bob Blount, who drove that bus like it was a plane. I mean, and because they. We also broke all Equity rules. I mean, if because of the way they scheduled our stops, sometimes we had to travel 10 hours to get to a place. And Bob just. He just drove that bus like it was an airplane. And I can't remember the name of our truck driver, but it was somebody that you'd think, okay, this guy scares the shit out of me. He's got to be a Hell's angel, his girlfriend would come and his dog, and he was tattooed. And one night, one night we were doing Three Sisters and he backed the truck up to the loading dock and started revving the engine because we weren't going fast enough for him. I'll never forget it. But we would invite him to these parties and he fell in love with these young actors. So it was an incredible experience because it also encompassed not only, unbelievably, training for young actors in technique, but also what we encountered. Heckling. We encountered having a flu and then having to put on a corset and go out and do measure for measure at 11 o'clock in the morning because we. No understudies. I mean, it built a muscle that very few actors have today or. And a technique that very few actors have today because people don't think that that acting is a craft and it is a craft that needs to be honed.
- [17:29]
Interviewer
And had you traveled when you're doing, you. You get out of school and you're in this traveling company. Had you traveled outside of New York as a child, or were you someone. Was this your first time kind of free and out and about?
- [17:41]
Patti LuPone
Well, we were. We were, you know, we performed. Bobby, Billy and I performed in the New York State area, but not like this. Not like this. I mean, we traveled to seven, several different. I guess I'd never been to Texas before. Missouri, California. That was my first time in California in 1976. Oh, man, it was great. San Francisco. Yeah, it was. We did it for four years. It was hard work. Oh, there was. There were experiences that were. They were. I mean, to this day, we on the same bus we were in. Oh, I can't remember the name. I can't remember the name of the times they were escaping. We're in the Midwest or we're in the plains. And we were stopped. We were one of the first vehicles stopped because a blizzard was coming through. And we were stopped at one of those. I can't even describe it like a Holiday Inn, but it covered like several blocks. You could buy tires and a girdle and the lobby was, you know, a shipboard. You know what I mean? You could play shuffleboard and ping. I mean, they're insane blocks, long motels. And we were lucky enough to get rooms. And then we thought, oh, we have no money, let's ghost. So we're four of us, you know, two of us would check in and four of us would sleep in the room. By the time we woke up in the morning, people were sprawled out in the lobby because this was a serious blizzard. We also, we performed paycheck to paycheck with the acting company. So losing that date meant we left. We lost our paycheck that day or that, you know, we didn't the company didn't get paid, the actors didn't get paid. I mean, it was an incredible experience in dedication, you know, learning a technique, understanding the tribulations of our business, and the ecstasy, the joy. I'll tell you one other experience. We were in the Midwest. Oh, no, we were Conway, Arkansas, when I said we were doing the Three Sisters and I went, ugh, why do we always have to do Chekhov in the boondocks? And they were ahead of us that night. They were so anxious for this play to be there. They had studied it and they were faster than we were. It was a big lesson.
- [20:01]
Dan Rubenstein
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- [21:53]
Interviewer
And, you know, some of the first other early shows that you had done were by, you know, David Mamet. And I believe the first. One of the first, at least, was the woods with Peter Weller, who my generation knows better as RoboCop. Oddly enough, of course, for my generation, he's immortalized as that. Do you remember meeting David Mametan, what that was like when you first started to interact with him?
- [22:22]
Patti LuPone
Yes, it was the last year of. It was our fourth year on the road, and several of us were going to leave because it was. As much as. It was a wonderful training ground, it was also arduous. And we thought, okay, it's time for us to get our career started, really. So about maybe four of us, five of us were leaving, and a new artistic director came down and basically said those of us that had formed this company and were the senior members of this company would not be getting the leading roles anymore that other actors would be getting. And, like, 11 people left. Half the company left at the same time. John Houseman commissioned David Mamet to write a play for the company. So he got on our bus from Louisville, Kentucky, to Columbus, Ohio, and when we got off the bus permanently, he took Kevin Kline, Sam Chujavis and me to Yale Cabaret to do All Men Are Horrors. While we were there, he handed me the woods, and that was the beginning of my relationship with him.
- [23:28]
Interviewer
And what would you say to someone who has no idea about anything, David Mamet? Like, what made his writing so wonderful that you kept coming back and wanted to keep working with him?
- [23:39]
Patti LuPone
Oh, because, well, and I've said this out loud several times, the two greatest teachers I've had in my career are David Mamet and Stephen Sondheim. David. To speak David's language accurately and to understand, attempt to understand his characters and to be able to express the rage of David is so fulfilling. It's so fulfilling. His language is incredibly musical. He's very. He's very. He himself is very musical, but the language is musical. And I love being able to. I don't want to say conquer, but it's achieve. Achieve his rhythms and, you know, you can't paraphrase David. You can't drop anything from his, you know, it's a lesson. It's another acting lesson to accomplish a play, you know, a character in one.
- [24:53]
Interviewer
Of his plays, and for all the passion that he puts into his writing, you know, on the personal level, just like working with him. What was that like?
- [25:00]
Patti LuPone
Well, we had a blast. Well, we had a blast because we all lived, Kevin and I. Kevin Klein and I lived in Chelsea, and David moved into Chelsea. We lived on 21st. He lived on 20th Street. And he would come over a lot and I'd cook breakfast. And I remember walking down the street with him in New York and in the theater district, and we went right by a marquee that said, water buffalo. Oh, water buffalo. The American buffalo. I'm thinking water for elephants. American buffalo. David Mammoth's American buffalo. And we looked at each other and went, oh, wow. Oh, there's your name up in lights. Wow. You know, I'll never forget that night as long as I live. Wow. Because David was just David until David became David.
- [25:42]
Interviewer
And, you know, of course, you mentioned Sondheim, and I was watching this wonderful interview you had with Stephen Colbert where you mentioned that what you had just said about them being the two biggest influences. And I was wondering, you know, Sondheim and Mamet and these people who lead creatively lead other creative people, whether a conductor or an art director or an editor even, what makes a good sort of creative person who leads other creative people. It's kind of like what makes a good director, but in a more universal sense.
- [26:18]
Patti LuPone
That's a difficult question because there's personality involved and there's. Sometimes you have to negotiate the personality to get to the information, and sometimes they're not necessarily desirous to lead or to instruct. Do you know what I mean? So you have to. In Stephen's case, he was a taskmaster. He wanted his music to be sung purely. There's no riffing. I mean, he said to me one day, don't slide up to the note. You're not doing your cabaret act. And I thought, my cabaret act, I didn't think I was. And I didn't even know I was sliding, but I understood that I was sliding because I was afraid I wasn't going to hit the pitch on pitch, the note on pitch. So he taught me that. But the method in which he taught me that was a little cruel. David is a natural teacher. He's just a natural teacher. And because he has such a command of the English language, he can consolidate an idea in three words so that it becomes crystal clear. To this day, I use quotes of Davis like, do not act upon the words. Let the script do the work. You have the fun. And what does that mean? You don't need to impose anything on the words. Let the definition of the word ring by simply saying it, as opposed to, I'm mad. It might be. It's Easier and more potent to say, I'm mad and not. I'm not. You're not changing. I don't mean that you're changing your emotional life. But. And that's a bad example. But it's more about let the. Let give each word its proper weight. And that's another one of David's expressions. And the more I act, the more I understand. You know, Bella Mooney's To Paul Mooney, less is Paul, less is more. We don't have to work. So as actors, we do not have to work so hard. If we trust the text and if the text is as good as a mammoth play, you simply have to say the words. You don't have to supply a lot of extraneous stuff, either movement or inflection. And, I mean, that's a very valuable lesson for an actor. You have to trust the playwright. It's not our responsibility to improve on a playwright. It's simply our responsibility to deliver the playwright's ideas through his words.
- [29:06]
Interviewer
Of course, you know, late 70s and into the 80s, two massive productions that you are now, of course, synonymous with, with Evita and also Les Mis. There's a story in the Times review for that first Les Mis that describes how you listened to a tape of a song in the plane ride over to London while you were doing another production. And that's sort of like something clicked in your mind where you said, I.
- [29:33]
Dan Rubenstein
Gotta do this new play.
- [29:35]
Patti LuPone
You mean for Les Miz?
- [29:37]
Dan Rubenstein
Yes.
- [29:37]
Patti LuPone
That's all incorrect.
- [29:39]
Interviewer
Oh, is it?
- [29:40]
Patti LuPone
Yeah.
- [29:40]
Interviewer
Oh, no, the New York Times is wrong.
- [29:41]
Patti LuPone
Yeah, but it's not the first time I was doing Oliver. Cameron McIntosh was producing Oliver, and he came into my dressing room and he said, oh, you're perfect for the next musical I'm doing. When and where? London, nine months. I went, well, there goes that. Then John Houseman was going to do a production of the Cradle Will Rock. And we did that, and then we were invited to perform that at the Old Vic. So it was in the newspaper that I was coming to London with the Cradle Will Runk. Cameron came to my apartment before I left for London and played me the French original recording of the Alain Bublia, Claude Michel Schomberg, Les Mis. I heard four bars and knew it was a hit. Just My Sicilian, which instinct. I went, that's a hit. He said, do you want to stay? And I went, yes. When? I should have said, call my. Call my. Call my lawyer. I should. But that's how that happened. When I went to London for the Cradle Will Rock, I started Rehearsals for Les Mis. I rehearsed during the day and then do the show at night.
- [31:04]
Interviewer
And you know, when you look back now on that original run of Les Mis, like what was. What do you think? Like what kind of takes you back?
- [31:14]
Patti LuPone
It was amazing. First of all, I went. I went so New York on this cast. This was a Royal Shakespeare Company, you know, with a few outliers like me, Michael Ball, Francis Conway. Conway. Francis Conway. Oh, God bless her, she's so brilliant. Frances Rafael. We were performing or rehearsing in the. What was the Royal Shakespeare Company's home, which was the Barbican. And I walked in the building and I went, why does this feel familiar? And so basically I felt eventually when I learned my way around the Barbican rehearsal rooms and stage, I felt like I was back at Juilliard. And then on opening night at the Palace, Trevor came to me and said that my being in the Royal Shakespeare Company made perfect sense because Michel St. Denis was a co founder of the Royal Shakespeare Company and he was a co founder of the Juilliard School of Drama. I didn't do it in New York because one night at the Barbican, we hadn't even moved down to the palace yet. I was on stage in the dreaded barricade scene, listening to Colm Wilkinson sing Bring Him Home, which I did every night, and went, I don't want to do this in New York because this is the perfect cast in the perfect musical in the perfect environment. And the only thing stage actors have are their performances and the memory of it. And I have said this ad nauseam. I'll never know whether I made the right decision or not. But, you know, by not doing it in New York. But London was my company. I belonged to the London company. It was magical.
- [33:03]
Interviewer
How did you, you know, was there a difference between doing something in the West End versus doing something in New York? Like, was there a kind of a. Is there a kind of culture shift you have to kind of get used to?
- [33:12]
Patti LuPone
Well, I've always said audiences are audiences around the world. If it's good, they will react the same way. Because we all. We're the same person. We are humans. I find Broadway disturbing now. I find it. It just is not. It's not. I don't know. It's not the same thing. I question the quality.
- [33:38]
Interviewer
The quality of the audience or the quality of the production or both.
- [33:41]
Patti LuPone
No quality of the audience, the quality. I mean, it's so expensive that corners are being cut and there goes quality.
- [33:50]
Interviewer
Sounds like magazines. Yeah, you Once told the Times, I'm a tragedian, I'm a comedian, I'm fearless on the stage. I'm scared to death in my own life, paranoid, terrified. Put me on a stage and there's nothing I won't do to the fullest. It hasn't been easy. And actors are known to be superstitious. And I'm wondering, in all of the stress of being paranoid and putting your life out there on the stage, is there a Patti LuPone routine before any performance that you do? What's your day like? You're like, I gotta perform today. What is that goes through your steps in your head? You gotta do before you leave the house and before you step on, on stage?
- [34:39]
Patti LuPone
Well, that's one of the great things about being a stage actor, you know, where you have to be at 8 o'clock at night so you can structure your entire day. When I do film, I don't know if I'm working every day. And so. And I find that, you know, if we go late, your lunch is later. You know, I sat with the stage, I eat at a certain time, I work out at a certain time, I rest at a certain time, I show up at the theater at a certain time, I'm coming home at a certain time. And I like that, discipline. So I have a complete schedule of what will occur once we open. And then when I get to the theater, I. It's all about, okay, this is my environment. You know, like we decorate our own dressing rooms to feel it because it's a second home, really. I'll sleep there, I'll eat there, I'll do my ablutions there. You know what I mean? It's my second home, so it has to feel like home. And there are certain mementos that remind me of my career, of my dedication to this craft. And then I hit the deck, you know, after I spent time in my dressing room, when I hit the stage, it's. That's where the responsibility kicks in.
- [36:07]
Interviewer
Any superstitions?
- [36:09]
Patti LuPone
Oh, all of them. Absolutely all of them, yeah.
- [36:14]
Interviewer
Which are you the most stickler for?
- [36:16]
Patti LuPone
Well, one of the ones that really shouldn't happen. And I was teaching a young stage manager today, I said, don't ever check anybody in because she checked in Mia. And she checked Mia. And I went, don't, don't, don't, don't check anybody in. Make sure people sign in because somebody might be missing and you've checked them in and nobody knows that they're not here. So, you know, don't you have to sign in. You have to put your initials on this. On the call.
- [36:46]
Interviewer
Oh, I see.
- [36:46]
Dan Rubenstein
You do it yourself.
- [36:47]
Patti LuPone
You have to do it yourself. Whistling Backstage Using the name of the Scottish play, we actually kicked Arthur Lawrence out of the theater during a preview of Gypsy. He was backstage. He named the Scottish play. Lenora Nemetz, who played Mazeppa, freaked out. And she said, patty, get him out of here. Get him out of here. Get him. Somebody get. Get hurt. Somebody's gonna get hurt. Get him out of here. Get him out of here. And I said, arthur, come with me. What? I said, I'm gonna put you out this door. You're gonna. He said, what did I do? He had no idea. We. There was a side door to the St. James, which was where the audience was lined up. We pushed him out. And through the door, I said, turn clockwise, counterclockwise three times. He did. I said, curse, spit over your shoulder, and I'll let you. And ask to come back in. And the audience is going, what the hell's going on? Oh, my God, that's Arthur Lawrence. What's happening? And so he went through the ritual and came back in. And Lenora was able to calm down. I'm trying to think of what the other superstitions are. You know, it's all about pretty much getting injured or stuff like that. The other thing that I just play right into. Is the house haunted? Yeah. I hope so. Am I going to see orbs? And pretty much every Broadway house is haunted. There's no question.
- [38:09]
Interviewer
You know what? I have to ask. I've asked other people this question and got surprising results. Have you ever seen a ghost?
- [38:16]
Patti LuPone
Yeah.
- [38:17]
Interviewer
Okay. Where's the last ghost you saw? The most or the most convincing to you?
- [38:24]
Patti LuPone
I think it was probably in the Belasco with women on the verge. There were orbs in the mezzanine.
- [38:32]
Interviewer
Orbs? Tell me about. What do you mean? Or like an orb of light blue lights.
- [38:38]
Patti LuPone
And one of the girls in gypsies. I can't remember. Gypsy. I can't remember her name. Her brother works on. It was a show, Was it Ghost hunters? She could not go near the mezzanine. She said, no, no, no, no, no. There's something going on up there.
- [38:53]
Interviewer
You know, I have many artists on the program, and of course, you're one of them now. As a performer, you're always. You're singing something that's not written by you. Someone else is directing you. It's someone else's costumes, someone else's choreography. Is there a performance in particular? I'm sure there are many in your career that you believe is a good example of you putting something into it that was utterly Patti LuPone that only you could have. Is there one in particular you kind of feel like, you know, I could have. I kind of improved on something here that I'm particularly proud of.
- [39:31]
Patti LuPone
I learn more after the show is closed, which is a drag, but when you leave something, all of a sudden you go, oh, wow. Oh, yeah. That's what that meant. Oh. Oh, I wished I'd known that when I was doing it. I'm also not the best. I mean, I think I could work harder. I think there's an element of laziness in me. Oh, yeah. And I'm slow to learn. It takes me a long time to understand. And that's another reason why I love the theater. I discovered that if I'm in a long run, which I will never be in again, I'm just too old to commit to a year's contract. But if I'm in a year's contract, I find that the first three months, I'm acting on adrenaline. And then right at the end of the three months, I'm going, ugh, I'm bored out of my mind. And the acting stops. And that's when the acting begins. I'm not imposing, as David says, imposing on the line. I'm just going, I'm bored. I'm going to do nothing. And in doing nothing, all of a sudden, the bubbles burst. And then my job is to edit a performance down to the absolute stillest I can stand so that the information is simply the text. We're not, you know, we're not automatons. We're human beings.
- [41:02]
Interviewer
And now you're back on Broadway in the Roommate, which I watch as the time of. We're recording. This opens previews, I think, in about a week, the end of August. Here. Tell us about this play, the Roommate, and what is it about?
- [41:15]
Patti LuPone
It's about two women that transition from obsolete to. I think certain women at a certain time in their lives are considered obsolete or redundant. And these two women find each other and discover each other and themselves through each other. And they are polar opposites. And I.
- [41:41]
Interviewer
And it's just the. And it's the two of you on.
- [41:42]
Patti LuPone
Stage, Just the two of us. And I adore working with Mia. Mia's a friend from Connecticut. Social friend from Connecticut. But. And this is the first time we've ever worked together, and it could not be easier. Could not be easier.
- [41:55]
Interviewer
And I believe the two of you had a Both of you had a friendship with Sondheim. Is that how you met? Yes.
- [41:59]
Patti LuPone
Steve introduced us. Steve introduced us.
- [42:03]
Interviewer
And what is sort of like a Sunday afternoon coffee session with Mia Farrow? Like, what is she like behind?
- [42:10]
Patti LuPone
Oh, my God. I could just sit and listen to her talk. I mean, she's had the most phenomenal life, and it's just. And she's. You know, things will just. Little droplets will come out, and you're just mesmerized. She just. Incredible. I. Every time she talks, I want to say, I'm just from Long Island. I mean, the life she's had is phenomenal.
- [42:37]
Interviewer
Did you. When. When they. When you first were pitched this idea for the room, and how did that come about? Was Mia attached to it when you came on, or was it happening independently at the same time?
- [42:47]
Patti LuPone
No, Mia was attached to it, and I was not the first choice, actually.
- [42:51]
Interviewer
Oh, okay. And so what made you kind of. When you read the play, what made you kind of.
- [42:58]
Patti LuPone
It was Jack O'Brien, someone who directed me one of my most successful performances with the acting company, the Time of youf Life. Kitty Duvall and Mia and Chris Harper, the producer. And I thought, okay, this is. This is something I want to do, and I want to come back to Broadway in a play.
- [43:20]
Interviewer
And with a play where it's just the two of you on stage, is that. Is that. You know, for the whole thing, is that more appealing to you, or is it more daunting?
- [43:28]
Patti LuPone
No, it's more appealing. Much more appealing. You have to. You know, if you're in a musical, you're controlled by those two tiny muscles, your vocal cords. You are at their mercy. You could feel 100%, but the voice goes, not today, sister. And then, you know, I don't ever like to miss. Ever like to miss. So I don't have that problem. I can go on with no voice. In an odd way, plays are easier.
- [43:58]
Interviewer
And a friend of mine is a huge fan of yours and wanted me to ask you, how do you feel about people saying you pioneered and sort of elevated the idea of belting that this is something that is attached to your kind of bio? When people talk about you and talk about how great you are, especially with your voice, like, is that something that you kind of. How do you feel about that? Or how do you. How would you describe it?
- [44:25]
Patti LuPone
Well, I did.
- [44:26]
Interviewer
To someone who's not a vocal expert.
- [44:29]
Patti LuPone
I didn't know that I pioneered it. I think Ethel did. Did she not? I mean, yes.
- [44:35]
Interviewer
Pioneered. Pioneered may be the wrong word, but you're known for your acuity with it and kickass examples of it.
- [44:43]
Patti LuPone
Yeah, that's my voice. Do you know what I mean? That is my voice. That's always been my voice. It is a big voice in this little frame. If it's true that my great granddad was Adelina Patti, then this is all in the DNA of my life. And I remember one of the first days of Trulia, we were sent to Lenox hill Hospital to Dr. Wilbur James School to measure our breath. I don't know how they do that, you know, for actors. So that if you have a long passage, are you going to be able to sustain it with proper breathing technique? I have the breath control of an opera singer. I. This is all the way. I was born. More indication that I was born to the boards. I was born to do what I do. My voice is a result of a lack of knowledge, quite frankly. When I was growing up, I'd sing along to Dionne Warwick in those keys. Not my keys. I didn't even know what my keys were. And I sang along to rock and rollers. I sang along to. You know, when I was growing up, that was my music because that was the beginning of it. So I don't even know what I do. Thank God. I mean, I had a vocal cord operation because I had a. I kept breaking a blood vessel in my vocal cord which would fill up with blood, which would swell the cord, which would prevent me from singing. And I went to Joan later for rehabilitation. I had to learn how to talk again. And then I had to get a proper technique. Even though I went to Juilliard, all I did was imitate Marian Mandarin in those preparatory classes. I didn't know what. What breath was, what a soft palate, a hard palate was where, what, how. I still don't understand the diaphragm, how it works. What do you mean? It's empty when it goes like that. I don't understand any of it. The inside of my body is a mystery. And so I just do what I do. I don't know what I do, and I just do it. That's the truth.
- [46:52]
Interviewer
In all your career, I'm curious, like, is there one. Speaking of belting and things like that, is there one. Perform one sort of piece of music you've had to sing along to where you. You think back and go, wow, that was tough. I didn't think I was gonna pull it off.
- [47:06]
Patti LuPone
Well, Rose's turn was probably the hardest thing. I mean, you've sung all night long and then you've got to do Rose's turn that night and then for eight more shows.
- [47:16]
Interviewer
Well, the day that this podcast will be available for download is the day that I got the all along debuts on Disney.
- [47:25]
Patti LuPone
Oh, wow.
- [47:26]
Interviewer
And so how did this role come about?
- [47:29]
Patti LuPone
Oh, well, it's a funny story. Well, I make it a funny story. I gave up my Equity card and I was sitting at my kitchen table going, I wonder what direction my career is going to go in. Ring, ring. Hello, Marvel calling. Literally.
- [47:45]
Interviewer
Wow, okay.
- [47:46]
Patti LuPone
Literally. And I went, excuse me. And it was Jack Schaeffer and Mary Lovanos. Jack Schaeffer is the creator and showrunner, brilliant writer for Agatha, and Mary Lovanos is the Marvel producer. And they offered me Lilia. I can't tell you much more because I got in trouble the last time, but I was thrilled to death every minute I was on this set with this cast and under Jack's leadership and direction. It was a great experience. I hope that the audiences like it. I hope that I work with these actresses and actor again. I hope I work with Jack Schaeffer again. I hope Kevin Feige puts me in the Marvel world as. I don't know what, but it was a great experience.
- [48:51]
Interviewer
What's Aubrey Plaza like?
- [48:52]
Patti LuPone
She's a hoot. She's a hoot. She's, you know, she's the one that let everybody know we were roommates when we were shooting. She said, oh, I've been offered a play in New York. And I went, oh, how great. Uh, oh. Cause she's never been on stage. And then I thought, you know what? Oh, gosh, okay, you need to stay with me because if you've never been on stage before, you need somebody there to talk you off the ledge. And she did.
- [49:28]
Interviewer
How did it go for her?
- [49:29]
Patti LuPone
I was, oh, are you kidding? She was the last man standing. She was fabulous in it, as was Christopher Abbott. They were wonderful. But, you know, things happen on stage and you can't help it. Christopher, I think he tore his Achilles. And then she had to go on with the understudy. Then she had to go in with the director. Then she had to go in with Christopher on a crutches. She came to me, she was very sick. So I, you know, I got here, okay, here's the IV doctor, here's my, you know, my throat doctor, here's my internist. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Here's how I can help you get through this. It's shocking, you know, if you've never been on stage, what you were expected to do. And what is sort of the norm? Like 12, you know, what do you call it? 10 out of 12? It's shocking. If you've never been on stage, what's.
- [50:19]
Interviewer
The hardest part about being on stage?
- [50:23]
Patti LuPone
Probably the technicals, because right now I'm exhausted. That's one of the reasons I'm lying down. It's exhausting because you're just standing there while all of the elements come together. Where the lighting designer is lighting, the set designer is making sure that the set is. All the elements come together. The costumes work, the sound works. It's arduous. You kind of lose track of the play or the momentum of the play because you're not running it. And so I would think, for me, the hardest part is technicals, and then the second hardest part is previews and rehearsal. You're just exhausted by the time you open because you have gone through technicals and now you've started previews, but they're allowed to rehearse you five hours. And I have in my contract now that I have to have a day off after every six days, after every eight performances, where they can make you work 16 days without a day off.
- [51:24]
Interviewer
How do you memorize your lines? I remember seeing I know you've had a friendship with Manny Patinkin. And one of my favorite New York memories is him walking down my block in Chelsea in New York with a script and seeing this guy mumbling to himself. And then I realized it was Manny Patinkin walking down the street with the script, trying to memorize lines. How do you memorize line?
- [51:44]
Patti LuPone
Well, I was on stage with Jonathan Price in Accidental Death of an Anarchist, and I think it was 84. And he said, get to the point, Patty. I said, what? He said, get to the end of the line. I said, what are you talking about? He said, make your point. What does that mean? Basically, what he was saying was I was speaking word by word by word, and I wasn't making the point. So he taught me to look at a sentence, find out what the point of the sentence is, make that point, and the rest of the words will be easier to memorize. But he was basically saying that move the play along. I was holding him up.
- [52:28]
Interviewer
And speaking of TV and Agatha, what kind of fan is more intense, a Broadway fan or a Marvel fan? You may not know.
- [52:38]
Patti LuPone
I think a Marvel fan. I was shocked when I did the D23. Oh, my God. I entered another universe. I thought it was at a Taylor Swift concert or the World cup finale. I was shocked, shocked.
- [52:59]
Interviewer
That kind of immense Love not just clapping, but a cheering at the top of your lungs. That kind of D23 is, for those who don't know, is the kind of the big celebration Disney puts on. And they tease all of their new stuff. And you guys did a performance, I think, in front of a huge audience.
- [53:14]
Patti LuPone
It was insane. I mean, I was blown away. I was overwhelmed. I went, oh, do I like this? I think I do.
- [53:26]
Interviewer
And you've done TV and film for forever and. But going back and doing this, doing the Agatha show, like, if you've thought to yourself, yeah, I love. I want to do more of this. Just TV in general.
- [53:38]
Patti LuPone
Yeah. I'd like to end my career on TV or in film.
- [53:43]
Interviewer
Really?
- [53:43]
Patti LuPone
Yeah.
- [53:44]
Interviewer
Why is that?
- [53:45]
Patti LuPone
It's easy.
- [53:52]
Interviewer
Perfect answer.
- [53:53]
Patti LuPone
Exactly.
- [53:56]
Interviewer
Are you someone who are you a binge watcher? I mean, like nowadays on TV, there's, you know, obviously there's 5,000 shows.
- [54:02]
Patti LuPone
I know. There's too much.
- [54:04]
Interviewer
There's so much. I mean, is there something that you're.
- [54:07]
Patti LuPone
Are you Abbott Elementary? The Bear? Slow Horses Bridgerton? I'm trying to think what else? I watch Buccaneers. I'm sorry, gentlemen, Jack is off the air. But I'm not watching anything right now because I have too many lines to remember. And I think it's if I don't think about the show that I'm doing something wrong. I'm reading. I'm doing a lot of reading.
- [54:37]
Interviewer
If you had to Describe who Patti LuPone is in three separate words, what would those three words be?
- [54:44]
Patti LuPone
Funny. Curious. A tourist.
- [54:53]
Dan Rubenstein
Thank you to my guest, Patti LuPone, as well as to Ben Barna and Philip Rinaldi for making this episode happen. The editor of the Grand Tourist is Stan Hall. To keep this going, don't forget to visit our website and sign up for our newsletter. The Grand Tourist curator@thegrandtourist.net and follow me on Instagram, Ann Rubenstein. And don't forget to follow the Grand Tourist on Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to listen. And leave us a rating or comment. Every little bit helps. Till next time.