← The Grand Tourist with Dan Rubinstein
Loading summary
Transcript68 lines
- [00:00]
Shohei Shigematsu
For me, it's not just about iconic architecture for museum, but suggesting a kind of high level of integration of operation and space. What's more, you know, what makes architecture more iconic in this context and I thought create a kind of destination, a space that goes beyond art and also being loved by the community.
- [00:24]
Dan Rubenstein
Hi, I'm Dan Rubenstein and this is the Grand Tourist. I've been a design journalist for more than 20 years and this is my personalized guided tour through the worlds of fashion, art, architecture, food and travel. All the elements of a well lived life. And welcome to the 13th season finale of the podcast. We'll be back in September with all new episodes with perhaps some surprises along the way. So keep in touch by signing up for our newsletter, the Grand Tourist Curator, or by purchasing our first ever print issue online, both@thegrandtourist.net now onto the program in architecture, influential talent often need to strike out on their own early in their careers to make a name for themselves. Rising through the ranks in a major firm, especially when a true icon has his or her name on the door, can be a challenge. My guest today is unique in that respect. After spending much of his career at the groundbreaking firm oma, under the direction of legendary architect Rome Koolhaas, he's established a New York outpost that's executing some of the most inspiring projects in the United States and beyond. Shohei Shigematsu Shohei is a partner in oma, as you'll learn today, and is the brains behind a series of incredible projects stateside like the Milstein hall at Cornell University, the Faena Forum in Miami, Sotheby's New York, an extension to the Albright Knox Museum in Buffalo, and importantly, the long awaited upcoming expansion of the new museum in Manhattan. On top of it all, he also follows in the footsteps of REM with culturally charged projects with a fashionable, sometimes radical approach. This is especially seen in his work in fashion, including exhibitions and installations for houses such as Prada, Dior and Vuitton. I caught up with Shohai from his offices in New York to talk about growing up in the heyday of 1980s Japan, how his secret love of filmmaking inspired him to pursue architecture, how he unwittingly nailed his job interview with REM the latest on the new museum expansion, and more.
- [02:32]
Interviewer
You were raised in Japan, but you also spent a little bit of time here in the States from what I've read as a child, and I believe you grew up in Fukuoka. Is that my pronoun?
- [02:42]
Shohei Shigematsu
Yes.
- [02:43]
Interviewer
And what is your earliest memory of life There.
- [02:48]
Shohei Shigematsu
Earliest memory, I think it is maybe going to a beach, you know, every summer. I think my parents took us. I'm a middleman middle one of the three brothers. And I remember that I think I was in the beach with my older brother and maybe playing or something. But anyway, I remember clearly that moment that was like so bright and so cheerful and so many like family members in the beach eating watermelon for some reason. I'm sure there, there must be earlier one, but if you ask me, right. Right now, that's the first one that came up.
- [03:31]
Interviewer
And your father was. I read that he was a research fellow at mit.
- [03:35]
Shohei Shigematsu
Exactly, exactly.
- [03:36]
Interviewer
What kind of fellow? What did he was he researching?
- [03:39]
Shohei Shigematsu
He was a professor in Japan for material engineering, something like that. And I don't know the direct translation, but basically really investigating to a kind of material, you know, at time he's the first baby boomer in like steel industry and all that was the kind of the, the best you can get. And so he went to that direction, material engineering. And then at that time, as a, you know, if you're employed, if you go to national universities, you could have exchange program with American university and they could choose whichever university they of course they had to be accepted and he chose mit. So he took all the family members with him.
- [04:29]
Interviewer
Okay, and was it like a creative household?
- [04:32]
Shohei Shigematsu
In a way, yes, but in a way, no, because I think his generation, my parents generation, were what in global context called like 68 Generation, where you know, lot of like protests against government, a lot of protests against the WAL or of course Japan was kind of. He was born 44, just before the war ended. So a lot of political angle to life and a lot of talks about that even in the household. But yet he always were listening to, you know, classical music, took us to the museums. So I wouldn't say that's creative. But you know, he was always talking about how art is difficult but important for your life. So I think, and I think he always connected science to art too. Like he, I think saw science also part of, you know, art in a way for his life. And always talking about how beautiful the science is, you know, talking about how, you know, water and cloud works and all those things, you know, like fundamental things in life or in the world. He was always keen on telling us.
- [05:58]
Interviewer
Would you characterize your upbringing as sort of traditionally Japanese in a way.
- [06:06]
Shohei Shigematsu
Maybe yes, until we went to us.
- [06:10]
Interviewer
But what was that like for you?
- [06:12]
Shohei Shigematsu
On the other hand, on the end. On the other hand, sorry to go back. They were always Keen on going out. I think because of the previous generation, basically my grandparents generation who literally experienced the war. They, you know, they always taught, they always said whenever we saw them that we have to work internationally for peace. So they really wanted to work. They literally wanted me to work for UN for example. So then my father's generation, although they couldn't go out of Japan, they were very keen on it. So that's why he took the opportunity to take all the family members with him. Although the grant was just for him to go to Boston. But after being us, I think there was also, you know, it opened some window for them and I think it continued to opening it up, I think. So. I wouldn't say it's traditionally Japanese, but traditionally Japanese in the way that they had a kind of post war desires, traumas that need to be, you know, expressed out every day, but also through the course of life.
- [07:36]
Interviewer
And you know, your teenage years were in the 80s, which of course was like a big boom time in Japan. And I was wondering, like what were you, what was a teenage. Was a 16 year old Shohei sort of into.
- [07:48]
Shohei Shigematsu
That's, that's a really interesting question because I always try to convey this to people outside of Japan. So that was the moment that maybe Japan had an optimism as a social, you know, in the entire social scene. And this is the last time that I felt that Japan had such an optimism in my memory in Japan, that was as a 16 year old, old years old. I was really focusing on studying because in Japan it's very difficult to get into university in many countries, but also in Japan. So you have to really, you know, study hard, get into a good university. But also I was a basketball player, so I played basketball every day. I was like point, not point guard, but like a, you know, shooting guard, like a second. And I was, you know, I eventually became a captain. So I was really committed in, committed to the sports, but in kind of daily life, you know, you see in the TV and also in the street the optimism. A lot of money spent of promise for kind of high standard living. A lot of objects, purchases, as you say, like a lot of commercials for new things like the Sony and cars and great apartment and great furniture. So a lot of bright future was promised to me and right after. So of course I took that for granted and I studied hard and entered good university. That is the first hurdle in the society that if you go to good university, somehow that kind of lifestyle is insured that we're promised. But then like once I entered the bubble Bursted like so I felt betrayed. Not betrayed, but I felt unlucky.
- [09:56]
Interviewer
And why architecture?
- [09:59]
Shohei Shigematsu
That's also interesting story. I was really into film. Like I wanted to be a film director. I saw like Kurosawa movie when I was 10 years old actually in Boston with MIT students and my family because my father took us to a MIT student screening and then there was a Kurosawa Seven Samurai. And then I didn't know Kurosawa at all at the time. But you know that the movie was very long in black and white. But somehow I was really drawn into it. I also saw the reaction of, you know, students at the time and you know, a lot of people are so into it, international students. And my father was very proud. The Japanese movie was shown and you know, a lot of people were into it and somehow I thought that was a great medium to, you know, create and. But somehow. And then I went back to Japan and saw many movies. But I couldn't really tell my parents nor my teacher that I wanted to be a film director. I was a bit embarrassed because in Japan, film being a film director, there is no like great film school or academic film school or such. There are now, but at the time it's very rare and also doesn't really belong to traditional national university. So maybe I was a little bit too naive or too shy or too stupid. But I couldn't really tell my teacher that I wanted to be a film director. Hence I picked something I thought at the time close. But I also liked drawing, making stuff. So I thought like architecture in again a very naive understanding of architecture at the time thought that architecture could be interesting. Also in Japan you go to either literature side or like math and physics side. And I went to physics side because of my father's influence. But I was also good at it, so went to that direction. In that direction I could only think of two professions that you could be kind of independent, not going to like big companies and being working under a kind of hierarchical structure which was either doctor or architect. And I chose architecture, which maybe is the first wrong choice, but probably the first right one.
- [12:55]
Interviewer
Actually now I can say that maybe what, 30 years later.
- [12:59]
Shohei Shigematsu
But you know, still I could feel that right now in Japan it's not like that. I think a lot of parents and the society embrace this individual desire to become a profession. B. Profession. But at the time there was always a kind of pre set notion that you have to go to good university, good private or national university and be on established faculty and then. And then go to a big Company or establish your company. You know, there was a kind of path and I couldn't really suggest at the time a different path, of course, because I didn't know. Also I was not in that kind of environment that people could tell me that there are other path paths. So yeah, somehow it shows the prematureness of the society then. But also my surrounding was not really equipped to push me to that direction. But sometimes limited possibility is also fine if I see the path I took.
- [14:14]
Interviewer
So I guess. So what you're saying is that choosing architecture was sort of a way of. It's sort of like a call for freedom, you know, it was like a push to be a little bit more independent and not get sucked into that sort of traditional Japanese workplace lifestyle.
- [14:31]
Shohei Shigematsu
Yeah, I could see that already when I was in high school, kid in high school, that I was not really suited for that kind of big company hierarchical structure because I was already not really fitting so well to that kind of Japanese typical groups and gatherings and you know, although of course I like sports and sports with the teammates and all that I did well. But somehow I always had some kind of doubt to that kind of structure. So I thought being an architect or being a doctor, you could just make your own thing and also overview or create something that you can be proud of, not just working for someone, you know.
- [15:19]
Interviewer
Like a film director.
- [15:20]
Shohei Shigematsu
Yeah, film director. So that was the closest I. I could pick when there is a kind of clear faculty of something. But there was no faculty of filmmaking at the time. And that's, that's my, you know. But now I would love to. I still like watching films, but it's there, as you say, there's a definite similarity to filmmaking and architecture where you have, you create something with so many specialists and, you know, collaborations and trying to basically express the zeitgeist and the, you know, the specific givens and express that into a product.
- [16:12]
Interviewer
And tell me a little bit about after school and before you joined oma. Was there a gap? Did you work for other people? What was that career like?
- [16:18]
Shohei Shigematsu
I did an internship at Toyo Ito's office. Toyo Ito is another famous Pritzker Prize winner Japanese architect. And my complex was that I was in Fukuoka, not in Tokyo. Tokyo, of course, is the mainstream. All the great universities, all the, you know, great firms were there. So although I was kind of winning the student competition in a domestic competition, I got some, you know, awards. And first, the best, how to say, like the place. But I really wanted to experience how to work, you know, what, what the situation is. In Tokyo. So I, during the summer I did the internship at Toyo Ito's office before I went to Holland, which was very good because I could really see that I was not in the level that I could compete in. The kind of kids in Tokyo where a lot of really good people or skilled people had been working in that kind of high level offices throughout student, you know, time. So it's not like I just came to Toyo Ito's office for, you know, for the first time. They have been working almost like a real, how to say, staff. So I really felt that there was a big discrepancy that also propelled me to actually apply to grad school outside of Japan.
- [18:01]
Interviewer
And then tell me about grad school and how you found your way to the Netherlands.
- [18:06]
Shohei Shigematsu
Netherlands. My professor in Kyush University was a graduate of Beri Lache Institute at the time. And my, how to say, the graduation thesis was about collective housing in Amsterdam, but also in general how, you know, the collective housing has a little bit of history, but a little bit of the kind of future studies, how it could evolve. So that was my thesis. So I went to Netherlands couple of times for that with my teachers. So I thought it was an interesting place to go because, you know, I lived in US although I was children, but I was a child, but I thought going back to US was maybe not the right way. Also the tuition fee was so high. So maybe I thought either London or somewhere else. And then Holland was a great choice. The tuition fee was much lower. And also it was English speaking. And also it was a new institution that was just made. So I thought maybe it's an interesting challenge and that kind of decision now. Maybe it takes so much time and effort to choose something. At the time for me it was kind of easy. Okay, maybe I should just try. And then strangely enough, it made such an important choice quite easily. And then I, you know, I went to Holland and then after that I went to oma.
- [19:53]
Interviewer
What was your interview like there at oma? Do you remember it?
- [19:57]
Shohei Shigematsu
Yeah, you know, I was at the interview and I applied to many offices in Holland. I truly thought I couldn't actually enter OMA at the time in my level. But I. So I sent a lot of applications to many firms, not just in Holland, but in Belgium, some in Paris, some in London. But then only OMA replied for some reason. And then I went to OMA for interview. Two office leaders at the time. It's actually Dan Wood who runs a firm called workac. Now American. A lot of American people around and after the interview was done, I saw REM walking around and I said, I was told by people who knows Oma before I went to the interview that I should be remembered by rem otherwise you will be just a kind of workforce, you know, just doing random stuff. And I thought that I should just at least introduce myself to rem, even though of course I was not accepted yet. So I kind of pleaded a chance to actually talk to him. And Dan Wood was nice enough to bring him to the table. And then, you know, at the time, Oma always had a Japanese person. But luckily enough, at that moment, there was no Japanese person. And I think in general, I think REM always enjoyed having some Japanese in his office. But then he started to ask kind of strange questions, or strange as in, oh, did you study anything else other than architecture? Of course, I was so equipped to show my portfolio and prepare to show my portfolio and my love to architecture. But the first question I get was, did you study anything else? And of course, now I know him well. It's a very interesting, good question. But, you know, when I said no, and then I talked about my time in Boston, I talked a little bit of really fast forwarding the portfolio and he stopped and what is this? And I explained in two sentences, and he said, do you like it? Also thought it was kind of interesting question, but I thought it was a kind of trick question. If I say I like it, he will think that I will. Not a critical person, self critical person. So I said, well, I like it, but this and this, that I didn't really like. And then he said, okay. And then he left, you know, like really kind of weird, like three minutes. And then he started kind of yelling at those people that I were interviewing. Where is, you know, where is this and that? Like immediately talking about a project and ignoring his I if I was not there. So anyway, it was a very interesting three minutes encountering with him. And then luckily I was accepted. It was a really interesting moment to enter, which I can elaborate now.
- [23:21]
Interviewer
Yeah. What was that moment like for the firm? What was going on there?
- [23:24]
Shohei Shigematsu
At the time it was only like 30 people, but exactly right after he was like 98. Right. So SML Excel was like 96, I think 95 or 96. Famous book.
- [23:39]
Interviewer
Yes.
- [23:39]
Shohei Shigematsu
Yeah. And he was at the height of his or beginning of his, like a kind of peak, I think, of popularity. So a lot of American projects. So right off, basically the project that I entered and worked on was the Universal Studio headquarters, so the big headquarter in LA and you know, team of maybe 15 people in that Dan Wood was leading Joshua Prince, Remus was there, yada yada, yada. And then like IIT Student center we won. And then Seattle Public Library we won. And then Prada, New York and Prada. The whole collaboration with Prada started. I'm talking before 91 1, so until 911 it was like, you know, and then we won LACMA. So it was like every project we worked on or I did a lot of competitions because I thought that was the best way to get to know the firm and get to be remembered. And yeah, every project we worked on, I feel like we won. You know.
- [25:01]
Interviewer
Were the projects you were working on just happened to be the ones in the United States or is that just kind of what the whole firm was doing at the time?
- [25:09]
Shohei Shigematsu
Yeah, that was almost the whole projects were like American projects, some Dutch project I worked on, one Cinema in Holland. But yeah, most of the projects were in us hence because a lot of people in the firm was Americans.
- [25:29]
Dan Rubenstein
Before we return to Shohai Shigematsu, a word from our sponsor, Lumens. Sourcing great design online can be a challenge. There are hundreds of incredible brands from around the globe, but finding all of these objects online can sometimes feel like an endless task. Thankfully, we have lumens.com, the incredible online platform for furniture, lighting and accessories. At this digital destination, you'll find dozens of luxurious brands from legendary names like Louis Polsen, Cappellini, Alessi and Tom Dixon to more hard to find editor favorite labels such as Petit Frateur, in common with Rosie Lee and many, many more. Of course, if you're a fan of the Grand Tourist, then you'll know how important authentic design is. And that's one of my main reasons to shop on lumens.com everything from the 400 brands on the site are vetted for authenticity, not to mention its world class customer support that ensures your next project is as flawless as possible. But even if you're not on the market, you might find yourself doing what I do quite often. Shopping on lumens.com to get inspired and discover new designs and designers to keep your mind's eye as up to date and sharp as possible. To source everything you need for a truly curated lifestyle, visit lumens.com that's L U M E N S.com.
- [26:55]
Interviewer
And you know, I'm not an architect and so I can only imagine what working at a place like OMA would be where people like REM are so highly regarded and you're Kind of operating at like a different level in terms of like philosophy and execution and stuff. Or what would you say you learned during those couple of years, those early years of working on, you know, everything from a movie theater in Holland to LACMA or what have you? Like, what was that? What did you learn as a young architect?
- [27:25]
Shohei Shigematsu
I think that's what I thought. As you said, like you need to really be super intellectual. You have to be well read, you have to be well spoken, you have to be good designer, you have to be a good presenter. All of the above is in a way true. But also what I felt really comfortable was that in the end I noticed that management or REM or everyone is actually looking at the personalities of people. Not necessarily all those kind of super skills per se, but also it's not about the kind of wacky, outstanding ideas that wins in that kind of environment. It's more of a very rational, very down to earth, very precise analysis of what's given and very sincere response of possibilities, what you can do in that kind of moment. And so I felt suddenly very encouraged because I didn't have to be genius there. I just have to be diligent and I just have to be passionate and I just have to be very honest about what I like and what I don't like. You know, that kind of very efficient and honest transaction, not transaction like exchanges were happening, I felt. So I was actually quite encouraged by that kind of environment. And then also there are a lot of discussions, but also a lot of personal after hour quality time spending with your colleagues too. So I think that was almost like an extended school period. It was almost like a school but with the kind of actual project and actual feedback from the client, et cetera. So that was quite rewarding school. I felt like really like I'm learning something for the first time that I never felt in the school.
- [29:43]
Interviewer
And you know, fast forwarding a little bit. You became a partner around 2008. I think you were 32 at the time, was quite young. Can you tell us about the first project you worked on as a partner?
- [29:58]
Shohei Shigematsu
I think there's a bit more interesting way of explaining how I felt. Basically I took over the office 2006 as the director of New York office, which at that time we had very little projects. Cornell University's Extension of Architecture, Art and Planning faculty. So it was a Milstein hall and then I had a couple of developers project in New York. Then you know, Lehman shock or the cred. The crisis happened and then Lehman crisis happened and somehow a lot of projects were lost. The Milstein hall continued. But when I became a partner was right after the Lehman crisis, right. So there weren't so many projects at the time. But I felt like I have to establish my own credibility here because in a way, at the time, like US was not favorite place for many, you know, Europeans and people with, you know, Bush period and all that kind of, you know, war and etc. And somehow I think that made REM also not so forth coming and coming to us and helping me to forge the business. Right. Because I was also reliant on his fame to get a project in the beginning. But somehow I started to notice when I became a partner that is difficult. So I took myself. Okay. I now finally got a license to somehow be free on deciding where, you know, the direction of the firm. Basically, I thought I kind of treat my own office as a small office, not really relying on Oma's umbrella and trying to kind of get, you know, myself known and also, you know, do a lot of engagements that are beyond, you know, Oma. You know, that's. That was a kind of moment that when I became a partner, basically, I felt like I should just start my little office so I wouldn't single out the project. And then, of course, in the beginning, it was very difficult because of course, whenever I present, the client expects REM to be there. But then eventually it started to work by not just pitching and pitching, but teaching, getting to know the local community and also getting to know how to present a little bit of evolving myself into the context of United States. And then somehow it worked because right after the crisis, everything was a bit slow. And I think a lot of people had time and myself had a time to really embrace the society and embrace the context. So that was, you know, in a way, the beginning of my partnership. And then somehow the office had worked almost to the level that the New York office is almost like an independent entity, successfully creating a kind of another arm within Omar.
- [33:53]
Interviewer
And how many people are you in the New York office at this point?
- [33:55]
Shohei Shigematsu
We are about 70 now.
- [33:57]
Interviewer
70?
- [33:58]
Shohei Shigematsu
Yeah. Oh, wow.
- [33:59]
Interviewer
That's huge. Okay. And what was it like for you to come to New York around 2006? Personally, did you enjoy your life in New York when you first moved here?
- [34:08]
Shohei Shigematsu
If I think of it now, it was kind of enjoyable. Maybe I didn't know the hardness of New York enough in the beginning to be pessimistic about it. Right now I know both sides, so I can be quite neutral. But at the time, I was enjoying a lot because of, you know, the amount of exciting events and exhibitions and so on, the cultural events that are happening, but also people that are around, was quite diverse and welcoming. I felt, you know, I never felt in Europe or in Holland that I was truly welcomed as an Asian in the kind of. Just of course in the office I was welcome, but in the kind of on the street. But here, of course, so many Asians and so many international people. I felt truly that I was treated very equally here for the first time. And that made me really feel encouraged. But also, whenever you are expressing what you want to do, I think people in New York were always very supportive to your ambition. I felt. And even though, you know, I was trying to do something impossible, you know, almost kind of not undoing, but like going promoting my name over one of the most influential architect in my generation, a lot of people are kind of, as they understood, supportive to that. And I think that kind of welcomingness and the dynamics I was enjoying quite a lot in the beginning. Yes.
- [35:59]
Interviewer
Did you feel a shift in terms of how architecture is practiced in the day to day and how things are presented here in the. Here in the States versus, you know, how you started your career in Europe?
- [36:11]
Shohei Shigematsu
Yes, maybe simply because I was a true leader here. I always had someone who could really be the representative ultimately. So I was actually being quite frivolous if I think of it now, or more creative, more radical in my design suggestions because in the end I thought someone could save me or it's not ultimately my responsibility to defend that design in reality. But now of course I'm the last one to defend. So maybe the dynamics has changed in that regard just through the position, but also in us and in New York especially, of course, things are quite severe, especially in a commercial architecture. So yeah, I think that a lot of reality check kicked into the process and I think that's a strength too though of me now that of course experienced, you know, many, many typologies and many processes. So somehow, yeah, the.
- [37:23]
Interviewer
Did you think the people evolved when you presented. Do you think people. And they expected REM to be there, but I guess did they expect more radical. You know, no one hires OMA to do a boring job, right? Like did people be like, okay, you're going to come in and give us some revelation that has to be really kind of, you know, as we say, like a wow factor. Like did you feel that pressure to kind of like, you know, if you're going to come and present an OMA project, we expect it to be different.
- [37:52]
Shohei Shigematsu
And you Know, I think that was not a pressure because I also witnessed all those American project being canceled, you know, Rams project. And I think deep in their heart, of course people won oma's radical at the time, radical architecture. But on the other hand, there is always a conservatism also here. And I knew, I experienced that because I worked on many American projects that eventually got canceled and I didn't want to repeat that. So although of course we are expected to have some level of, you know, design radicality or excellency, I was always a bit careful of that going to that direction. But also, as I said earlier, I wanted to create a kind of fresh, like a disruptive arm of oma, which doesn't really actually follow what OMA used to do. So I was always thinking with the staff, okay, what is, you know, not om, you know, what can we do that is not OMA or what can we. Whenever someone presented an option that looks kind of too oma, I was kind of against because again, then, you know, we're going to follow the same path and you know, get a reaction. Okay, this is very OMA. It's like under REM's influence. But I wanted to create our own kind of thinking here. So, you know, the severeness of New York architectural, you know, scene, and me trying to establish something that is not entirely just oma's, you know, methodology, I think I thought it will generate something unique here.
- [39:52]
Interviewer
And you know, speaking of, of having your own thinking and developing your own sort of OMA New York style, I was wondering if you could walk through to someone who maybe is not familiar with the project at all, as I have a soft spot for Buffalo, New York because I went to, I went to school there. Tell us about the Albright Knox Museum and, and the extension there.
- [40:17]
Shohei Shigematsu
Yeah, that's a great project to explain.
- [40:21]
Interviewer
In terms of your own thinking.
- [40:23]
Shohei Shigematsu
Yeah, yeah, yes, yes. I think that my own thinking comes from the, what I call observation of the change that are happening in the society meets the specificity of each project. So I'm always very interested in extracting very specific givens of each project because in architecture every time, most of the time site is different, the client is different, program is different. So I'm very focused in delivering something that is only possible in that context and givens at the same time. Of course, museum is a typology that exists all over the world. So there's a general observation and opinions needed for that, a typology too. So for me, that specificity versus that kind of general observation of the changes that are happening in that typology, that tension creates something unique. And in Buffalo's case, it's a typical extension of a museum. Museum typology always extends because often the collection, amount of collection becomes more and more and often you need a new gallery space to show new type of art, et cetera. In Buffalo there was an extension. There's an original building in 1905, there's an extension that happened by SOM in 62 within a Delaware park which is designed by Olmsted, is the same designer as the Central park in New York. So it's a great environment. But those two buildings, basically original and extended, somehow became a blockage between the city and the park and also created a surface parking which also takes up some of the beautiful park space. So our project was to create an extension that creates reflects the new kind of direction of the museum in North America, which I will explain now, but also to give back and restore the park space around so that the museum becomes truly a museum in the park as originally intended. So the extension of the museum where I focused is how the museum typology is changing in my observation, especially in North America, where a lot of community engagements are happening within the museum. So museum typology is no longer just a gallery space, but it's more about, you know, engaging a community, forging a community and also educating not necessarily just art, but creating an educational spaces where a lot of, you know, exchange is happening. And also a lot of spaces that are open ended spaces that encourages community to have an event and also curator and artists to have some kind of installation, not just within white cube. So in order to achieve that, the new extension, the new pavilion actually flips the diagram of the old pavilions old museum, which was all inner, inward looking, introverted. And from exterior it was hardly visible, it was very solid. But there's a courtyard and art in, you know, art surrounding the quartet. So it was kind of catered to really look towards inside. But here I wanted to make a kind of completely different diagram by, you know, creating a gallery in the center, but wrapping with a glass envelope some kind of an open ended space where curators and the community can improvise their activity within. So it's like a concourse, but wrapping the whole gallery space which is lifted so you can actually have a view to the park and also from view from outside in, so that the whole activity is almost broadcasted and somehow transparent to the community, which was kind of lacking. And also their great collection is somewhat shown also in that space. So somehow it's extremely accessible and extremely transparent and having this kind of ambiguous, non defined space where artists, curators, but also community can actually do their own programming and activities. So in short, it wasn't really short, but somehow that's the kind of explanation of the building and the whole master plan. And also we restored the existing buildings, we put the new wooden floor to the 1905 building. And also we changed the SOM extension in 62 into educational wing. And also we collaborated with Oliver Eliasson, the artist, to put the roof on top of existing courtyard which was not well used. So it was not just one building, but it was a whole campus that we designed.
- [46:23]
Interviewer
And how do you think you you handle this? That maybe, you know, OMA in the Netherlands might have done differently?
- [46:28]
Shohei Shigematsu
I think the OMA was challenging the white cube itself, you know, and I think rem's interest, well, I don't want to call just rem, but I don't know if you can compare to Omar Rotterdam now, because that's also a very different office compared to the past. But let's say in previous projects of museums, I think OMA was very heroic to even redefine the white cube itself. But here I wanted to deliver a perfect white cube as people and artists want because that's a kind of established zone. But I felt the opportunity was the discrepancy between the extension of a gallery space. But actually museums activity is diversified and expanding to a non gallery space. Right. So just expanding a gallery space didn't really fulfill the new types of activity that are happening in the museum. So I think that the observation of North America in that regard was probably possible through me being of course in New York, but also doing a research. I did some art field research at Columbia with students how art world is changing. And also I worked on many angles on art domain by doing collaboration with artists. I did artist studio, I've done exhibitions. So it's not just building a physical museum, but I was in the position of the almost like, you know, artists themselves also doing artist studio. So I know how they feel about museum space. I also did exhibition design which worked very closely with curators. So within the time that I of course didn't get this kind of high profile museum immediately, but I was working on surrounding kind of ecosystem of art. And I think that somehow influenced me to come up with that kind of scheme, which for me it's not just about architecture, iconic architecture for museum, but really suggesting a kind of high level of integration of operation and space somehow because operationally the museum was quite different from what I did when I did, like Whitney Extension or LACMA Extension with ram. So I think that was the. That's how I think we came up with this direction. And also I think the operational side, the people in Buffalo, led by Janice, the Finnish director, they were also very much focusing on that angle. Of course, great collection, great gallery was a must. But what's more, what makes architecture more iconic in this context, and I thought being more iconic in this context was to create a kind of destination, a space that goes beyond art and also being loved by the community.
- [50:05]
Interviewer
And obviously, speaking of museums, we're recording this at the very end of March, and your expansion of the new museum, which has been really a long time in the works, will be ready to open, I believe this fall was just announced. What can people expect? You know, this is a very exciting sort of the new museums on the Bowery. Obviously you're expanding on the museum very highly beloved by Sana and its sort of design at the time was very radical. And how's that going and tell us a little bit about where things are now?
- [50:39]
Shohei Shigematsu
Yeah, it's going well. Of course, some delays, as you know, in New York. This one is also similar to the Albright Knox Gunluck Museum. But the difference is that typically the museum extensions happens over like 50 years Spanish. So that old and new, the contrast is easier to create. Or it's naturally there because the building that is existing is old. Here it's only like 15 year span, which the building is a contemporary art museum designed by Japanese duo. And here Aikami was an international competition. So of course our schema is chosen. But still, how to deal with a contemporary architecture in pair? Creating a pair, creating a couple is, as you know, similar to human being. It's very difficult when everyone is decoupling in the world. Politically, we wanted to create a kind of perfect couple. And the perfect couple is, I think, somehow not being too respectful, but to also creating understanding that each had to have its own individual Persona, but highly functionally connected. So in order to achieve that, we actually collected different images, just images of anything that shows unique pairs before we started designing. So in some example, like Marina Abramovic and his partner having looking into each other naked and have a gap that's an opening of an exhibition. People had to walk in between them or the rocket and the rocket launcher, the kind of the mechanism to hold the rocket before they get launched. One is highly infrastructural, one just goes out to the space. All those images, like 20 images just to kind of remind us that the pair is not just new and old or better or worse or white or black. We wanted to create some kind of ambiguously pair, but ambiguously kind of independent anyway. It's hard to explain, but in order. That's a kind of decision that the leaders can make that. Okay, before we design, what is the problem here? I felt when I did Whitney Museum against Breuer with REM in early 2000, that was also kind of criticized. Okay, it was a little bit too overwhelming to Breuer's building, etc. It was maybe too kind of not connected well enough. Maybe it came from the past trauma of losing that project. But also I felt truly here that there's an opportunity to create an interesting pair. And then somehow that turned into a diagram of. Every level is connected, every program is repeated. Because what the museum wanted was a kind of not a clone, but you know, almost another museum which is almost the same program next to it. So almost like creating a pair first. Every level is connected, but having a different face and also respect to existing building, which is quite vertical, as you know. So we created this kind of mid level setback that preserves the view of the existing terrace to downtown, but also respecting the kind of verticality and us being a bit more horizontal. So those kind of contextual relationships somehow shaped the museum. But also what I said about how the museum is evolving is still relevant in this project too. There's a kind of whole face part is a kind of fluid circulation space that also is somewhat open ended, not really well defined. But what we are thinking is that that's also an area that museum or artists or the community can do a lot of activities and, you know, expressions and exchanges.
- [55:49]
Interviewer
And how are you feeling about it now at this point?
- [55:54]
Shohei Shigematsu
I think it's gonna look great. And I. I'm hoping that. I know and I know there, you know, the museum's curatorial team is amazing and the community engagement is amazing. And also there, you know, a lot of art entities, a lot of museums in North America or in US has evolved into more multifaceted art entity. Not just doing exhibition, they do events, they do, you know, educations, they do many things. So I think it will cater that kind of new image of museum quite well. Because the existing museum was also hermetic. Right. Like it was a little bit more introverted. This one again is quite extroverted. You see people's movement, there are terraces. So you see the activities from outside also quite well. And hope this will Also make the museum more inviting, similar to the case in Buffalo.
- [57:10]
Interviewer
And you know, since you've moved to New York, it's changed quite a lot, especially from a sort of an urban point of view, from an architecture point of view. What do you love about being a New Yorker?
- [57:20]
Shohei Shigematsu
It always gives me an energy to do something new. Maybe because of the name New York. I mean, if it's kind of interesting that the name has new. So he always gives me this courage to do something and people are supportive to that kind of ambitions. Although of course there is a conservative side here that makes it also super difficult. I think New York is also a place where I can. Where one can also be quite neutral about New York. And I think that's this kind of, you know, the distance to the New York for me. I can somehow manipulate that distance myself, you know, whenever I want to feel very New York or when I have to be kind of super New Yorker in order to really, you know, let's say, explain new museum. But at the same time I can take a step back and also talk about the general issues and challenges that are happening in the city, so on. And I think New York somehow always represents that challenges too, you know, culturally or also building environment wise. There's always something exciting happening, but at the same time also challenge challenges are quite apparent. And I think as an architect, of course, I get very inspired by those either, you know, like exciting things, but also the challenges.
- [58:55]
Interviewer
And if you had to describe your work in three separate words, what would you. What, what three words would you use?
- [59:02]
Shohei Shigematsu
Specificity, open endedness and beauty.
- [59:08]
Dan Rubenstein
Thank you to my guest, Shohei Shigematsu, as well as to everyone at OMA for making this episode happen. The editor of the Grand Tourist is Stan Hall. To keep this going, don't forget to visit our website and sign up for our newsletter, the grand tourist curator@thegrandtourist.net and follow me on Instagram danrubenstein and you can purchase our first ever print issue of the Grand Tourist online now on our website. And don't forget to follow the Grand Tourist on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to listen. And leave us a rating or comment. Every little bit helps till next season.