← The Grand Tourist with Dan Rubinstein
The Grand Tourist with Dan Rubinstein
The Grand Tourist Introduces: Charlap Hyman & Herrero, Sophie Lou Jacobsen, BoND
01:24:06
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- [00:00]
Sophie Lou Jacobson
I do try to make my work feel like it doesn't exist within a certain time or moment in time. I was noticing decorations or motifs or shapes hundreds of years ago that you still find today and sort of seeing them repeat make it able to live in a space today because it's much more focused on the emotional reaction rather than what's happening outside in our aesthetic world today.
- [00:28]
Dan Rubenstein
Hi, I'm Dan Rubenstein and this is the Grand Tourist. I've been a design journalist for more than 20 years and this is my personalized guided tour through the worlds of fashion, art, architecture, food and travel. All the elements of a well lived life. And welcome to a new episode of our special series the Grand Tourist Introduces, sponsored by Lumens. Today we'll meet three different emerging design practices that are making waves in the industry. You'll hear from a French American talent that finds inspiration from history to create something completely new with her inventive works in classic materials from tabletop to lighting. And you'll hear from a pair of former journalists that are just as ease creating a fashion flagship as they are a really great summer home. But first we meet one of the most exciting architecture and interior design firms today. Charlep Hyman and Herrero, the bicoastal Firm Founded in 2014 by LA based architect Andre Herrero and New York based interior designer Adam Charlep Hyman create a wide variety of projects with an utterly unique point of view that's fueled by a host of curated references in their work. You might find a booth for a blue chip gallery at an art fair with a bright green rug one moment, or a conversation pit in a soho loft the next, or a Los Angeles pied a terre with a vertical stainless steel fireplace. I caught up with the pair from their respective studios in New York and LA to chat about how the pair first began collaborating, how the word soulful comes into play to describe their sometimes hard to categorize portfolio and what kind of creative process it produces such unconventional curated work. Adam, you worked in furniture design at risd or you studied it at risd, Excuse me. And Andre, you were an architect and you're working for places like Chipperfield and Sana and stuff like that. But I read that you guys started working together when someone photographed another's apartment. Who can tell me that story?
- [02:23]
Adam Charlep Hyman
So yeah, we were friendly and I think admired each other's work from afar. Andre is a good photographer and was doing a lot of photography for mostly, I guess, fashion students for their portfolios and I thought that it could Be very cool if he would agree to photograph my apartment for my portfolio, because I had made my senior year apartment a project, and I made a lot of the furniture for it, and it was kind of an homage to this fashion editor in the 50s. And I was sort of imagining his apartment and the way it might have looked. Anyways, so I asked Andre to photograph it, and he said yes, which was so great. And he had this fantastic idea to use different cameras and photograph it at all different times of day, some real film, some digital, to create a kind of body of documentation that would suggest the passage of a long period of time in the apartment, when in reality, I had only been there for maybe seven or eight months. And it worked really well. And we had so much fun doing it together. And I think kind of got to know each other in this kind of funny and very particular way. And that experience definitely shaped a lot of our initial friendship and conversations around design and architecture, the way that it connects to the passage of time, to storytelling, to biography, to people in history. And I think that the documentation of our work has been very important to us. So when we actually did decide to start a firm together several years later, this was a big part of what we were doing, was making sure that we would be able to capture these kind of ephemeral spaces that we were making in just the way we wanted. So Andre has taken most of our portfolio images.
- [04:47]
Dan Rubenstein
And Andre, like, what was your story before you studied design? How did you find yourself studying, getting into the design world?
- [04:54]
Andre Herrero
So, I mean, ever since I was a child, ever since I. I was always drawing, I was always kind of an artsy kid, I guess. I like Adam. I think Adam has a similar story in that we're renovating our own bedrooms at age 11, 12. And, yeah, so I think it was path from day one.
- [05:21]
Dan Rubenstein
And Andre, like, if you meet someone at a party and someone just is sort of like, oh, my God, you're a designer, you know, and you guys create homes and all these amazing spaces. Like, what is your work? Like, how do you reply?
- [05:33]
Andre Herrero
Oh, gosh. Well, if I'm at a party, I usually just whip out the website because a photo speaks a thousand words. But I understand we're on a podcast here. Words are not my strong suit. But the line that I typically use is that. What did we say earlier, Adam?
- [05:49]
Adam Charlep Hyman
Artistic, soulful, specific to the context.
- [05:53]
Andre Herrero
Right?
- [05:54]
Adam Charlep Hyman
That's the most non answer. Answer. I don't know what to say.
- [05:58]
Dan Rubenstein
I don't know. I would say if you guys said soulful, I would Say that that is somehow, like a word that is not. I don't hear a lot. I mean, I hear a lot of people, like, context. And, you know, I go into my. There's always the story of the designer who meets the client and asks to see their wardrobe, and then it's like it's all bespoken, tailored to you. But there is something to what you guys do that has a kind of a soul.
- [06:21]
Adam Charlep Hyman
Yeah.
- [06:22]
Dan Rubenstein
That feels that nothing. That is just an extension of an owner's personality. That there is something quite special about what you guys are doing that comes across as unique.
- [06:33]
Adam Charlep Hyman
Yeah. And I think a word that we use a lot in the office is it just sort of organically comes up as collage because we are thinking very intentionally about the. The past and the way things are put together to make something new. We're definitely not historicists, but we, you know, we're very sensitive to history. And. Yeah. I mean, I think that if you zoom out, we've been looking at all of our work as we sort of put together a bunch of projects to look at in a big portfolio that we're making. And I do think that there is a quality of line that we've been working on and a certain color sensibility and a formal quality that relates to the density of the rooms that we make, to the line of the architecture that we're working with. So I think in that sense, we do have really, like, an aesthetical project that we've been refining over the years that has to do with line and form and space and color. So there's that. But, yeah, I think in a more kind of deeper way, this idea that we make very soulful, very artistic interiors and buildings is. Or very soulful, very artistic spaces is the ticket.
- [08:11]
Dan Rubenstein
And, Anna, tell me about perhaps a world that you think you guys have built that was kind of, like, not to type, that maybe was, like, different from what you normally do or something. That kind of a project of yours that maybe speaks to what Andre was saying.
- [08:27]
Adam Charlep Hyman
To the kind of evolution.
- [08:30]
Dan Rubenstein
Yeah. Like, you guys can. Yeah. Like, the fact that you don't have a specific look that, you know, you guys can kind of do. You can kind of do different projects that maybe are a little. Each one is kind of different from another that may not even, you know, to someone who didn't know your work that could just, like, look at and be like, oh, these two things don't look necessarily like a firm that pumps out the same thing every time. Is there a project that you think like, yeah, Embodies that idea.
- [08:53]
Adam Charlep Hyman
Yeah, Well, I think that obviously we do. We do our own architecture, but something that maybe a niche that we have kind of found is interpreting for a new generation of. Of owners historically significant architecture. So we've wound up working on an IM Pei house, simultaneous to a Stanford White House. And obviously, these require very different everything, but I think that we've approached them both with the same kind of the same artfulness and sensitivity to the context and very bespoke process to the client. And in some ways, with those projects where we're working on an existing house, especially one that has an interesting history, we do become, in part archaeologists, but also kind of documentarians in that we have to sort of create a new product, like a new story out of what we find. And I think that if you look closely, I'm sure that somebody can see that they're done by the same person, that we do have a voice that has been woven into both projects. But, yeah, superficially, they look really different. Obviously, one is an octagonal house in Long island by Stanford White from the turn of the century, and one is a townhouse that IM Pei called home on Sutton Place. So, yeah, couldn't be more different.
- [10:57]
Andre Herrero
There was one month where there was an article that our firm was mentioned. One article was about maximalism, and in the same month there was another article about minimalism.
- [11:08]
Dan Rubenstein
And you got press in both.
- [11:10]
Andre Herrero
Correct.
- [11:10]
Dan Rubenstein
Oh, awesome. And it seems like that, you know, also, because you guys are partners, that the architecture and the interiors element of the work is like, 50. 50. It's not an architecture firm that does interiors or an interiors firm that also decided it can also do architecture. Is that fair to say? That kind of is like part of the. From the beginning. That kind of seems to be unique, the fact that also. It happened that way, but it also happened with a little bit of. You guys are young and how many years has it been now with the firm?
- [11:40]
Adam Charlep Hyman
10.
- [11:41]
Dan Rubenstein
Oh, gosh. 10 years. Oh, my God.
- [11:43]
Adam Charlep Hyman
Yeah.
- [11:44]
Dan Rubenstein
And how are you guys set up today? Who's based where and where. How are you guys making it? Where's your teams? And all sorts of things like that.
- [11:51]
Andre Herrero
So we have two teams. We're based on the west coast and East Coast, Los Angeles and New York. We're about. And we're. We have interior designers and architects in both studios. And Adam's based in the New York office, and I'm based in the LA one.
- [12:10]
Dan Rubenstein
And are you guys pulling. Do you feel like you pull different inspirations from west coast and East Coast? Is that also like do you think that's an element of it, that you guys aren't so wedded to one scene or another? Adam, I think I'm speaking to you right now from Aspen. And, you know, Andre, you're somewhere else. And.
- [12:28]
Andre Herrero
And, yeah, I would say we're also from the west coast and east coast, respectively, as well. So there's definitely some of that. And I think our clients are also from west coast and East Coast. It's. It's very.
- [12:43]
Adam Charlep Hyman
And everywhere. I mean, we've been working everywhere. I think we. We've been very comfortable figuring out how to make it possible to work in Europe, in Latin America, in the Middle East. And since the beginning, we were getting fun, exciting projects in places that were not where we were based, and we had to figure it out because we wanted to do them so badly. So at this point, we've done projects in Venice, Italy, multiple times and Vienna, in Dubai, in all the time, working all over the U.S. miami, Aspen, Maine, whatever, you know. So I think that while we are, of course, very informed by where the two offices are based and where Andre and I come from, we're also quite fluid and don't feel hyper connected to. Or hyper. Yeah, hyper connected to one of those two places necessarily. Even though maybe we do have, like, a sort of romantic attachment to those places. I think the rest of the world stimulates us very much, and we're happy to work on things all over the place. And it brings us so much joy to be able to work on things in other places. In fact, I think those have been some of the most rewarding experiences in terms of design. Being able to go somewhere exciting and work in a typology of project that's different than the one we would find around the corner, let's say.
- [14:32]
Dan Rubenstein
And, Adam, you and I did a panel where you described. Speaking of collage that you brought up earlier, you guys, we talked a little bit about how you work with a new client, let's say a residential one, and about that sort of creative process that you follow with somebody to kind of arrive at these designs that you guys create. Maybe the two of you can kind of walk me through, like, what, you know, someone like myself. If I was like, okay, guys, I'd like to. I'm creating a cabin in the woods, and I would love to, you know, to hire you guys. Like, what is that onboarding process like, with a. A client that comes to you with a request like that?
- [15:10]
Adam Charlep Hyman
So we. We would make a proposal that would get a bunch of questions answered about budget and timeline. And so that would. That would be done. And then we would start our reference image process, which is a time when we come together with several hundred images that have been organized into a variety of categories specific to the project, to the client. And those categories could be very concrete, like the color of the rooms in these images. It could be a little bit very specific, like big objects in small rooms. And it could be more conceptual, like the feeling, the density of furniture in a film, still of a movie. And I would say we would also.
- [16:24]
Andre Herrero
In tandem with the reference images, we would also start to work on just 3D spatial explorations in the computer. We started at the computer very early on, and that just starts to give very quickly a sketch of scale and placing Cabin in context. And I think there's a very intuitive. Through this iterative process of both finding your attachments in the reference images, but also starting to develop spatial forms and spatial ideas. It's. At some point those two worlds start to converge. And I think that we sort of are studying the problem that we need to solve in a lot of different contexts and scales and themes that then get resolved further down the line.
- [17:19]
Adam Charlep Hyman
Yeah, we put a lot out there right at the beginning. We come at the projects with full force. So if we were working with you, you'd have a lot of. A lot to respond to very quickly, because we see a lot of the challenge of getting something done with a client, to be actually just getting to know the client. And we sometimes don't have the language to really exchange ideas in a productive way. So the imagery, initial studies, all of this gives some vocabulary, really, to be able to work with so that we can get to know each other and develop trust in each other's vision and confidence in each other's ability to articulate what we want and how we see it. And so we start. We start like this, and by the end of that first phase, we have. We have some floor plans, we have maybe 50 images that speak to all these different aspects of the project in a kind of free, associative way. It's really like a therapy exercise. And then once we have that, we take a really big dive, or what we see as a really big dive into creating two options. It's generally how we start. We create two options for every step of the way. And. And so we would present you with two versions of each room, two versions of the building, two schemes. And it's not a choice per se. People tend to favor one over the other. And what I usually see is that they take 70% of one, 20% of the other. And there's a balance of 10% to work out. And it's good for us because we've only put four things that we really believe in, so people are choosing between only things that we really are excited about, and that's how we would get started. So it's a pretty thorough and very collaborative process where we're taking in a lot of information from the person, and once we've got a direction, we. We start making a reel. So that's when all the construction drawings and schedules and budgets come out. But, yeah, that's. That's the beginning of the creative part.
- [20:16]
Dan Rubenstein
You know, your. Your career has been around for 10. Your firm has been around for 10 years. Half of that time, I'm sure, was pandemic. Ish era of all of that. And a very changing time for everybody in so many different ways. Like, how do you guys. Even though you're. You're doing this sort of this collage experience with clients, and you're trying to find the beauty first before you put pen to paper and before you start measuring anything. But I'm wondering, like, where do you guys find your inspiration? Where is something. There must be a sparks coming from somewhere. Maybe even you just tell me, like, your own personally, like, where some of you guys are pulling your eye. Like, where is this taste level coming from?
- [20:59]
Andre Herrero
I think we both love traveling, and I think traveling is such a. Is the best for inspiration. It also relaxes you, gets you out of the studio.
- [21:12]
Dan Rubenstein
And it's not just like, travel y. Like, it's not like. But it's in this new context of, like, you're working probably when you're also traveling, I'm sure you're always.
- [21:21]
Andre Herrero
Yeah, I mean, always working. It's the. It's the nature of being the principal, but also trying to detach and trying to find space for those new ideas. I think that if you're. If you're grinding and grinding and grinding, you're only seeing what's in front of you. And it's important to sort of step back, detach, and create the space for the new ideas to flow in.
- [21:43]
Dan Rubenstein
Adam.
- [21:47]
Adam Charlep Hyman
Well, I'm. I really love images and cataloging images, and I take a lot of photos on foot, and I try to see as much as I possibly can. Always, wherever I am, I always am trying to see houses. I got advice when I was pretty young from a really amazing interior designer named Howard Zlatkin. I was in high school, I think, and he said that the way that you will get better is by going to see the houses that you admire and not just going and looking at photos of them, but really going to them and looking at everything. And so I think that Andre and I both are just always, always, always going to see stuff. We always are looking.
- [22:37]
Dan Rubenstein
What's the last amazing thing you saw in terms of a house or a project like that?
- [22:42]
Andre Herrero
Well, just yesterday, I was on a boat in Long beach and there's this amazing Frank Gehry. I don't know what it is. I haven't looked it up yet, but just this amazing Frank Gehry sculptural piece out in the middle of the water. I think it's hiding an oil rig or something. Or maybe it's a museum. I have no idea. But I took a ton of photos, a ton of videos. I'm going to dissect that later. Very cool.
- [23:07]
Dan Rubenstein
Adam, what about you?
- [23:09]
Adam Charlep Hyman
I had the opportunity to go visit James Ivory at his house in Claverock, and I've been on a journey researching octagonal houses because we're working on this octagonal house in Long island, and I'm very curious about how people resolve the interior spaces of the octagon. And James's house is an octagon. It's a Greek Revival octagon. And I went up there.
- [23:41]
Dan Rubenstein
He's a Merchant Ivory fame, if I'm correct. Yes.
- [23:44]
Adam Charlep Hyman
Yeah. So I was able to organize to go and visit him and see this amazing house, which is full of furniture that was used as props in the movies. And it's a very, very personal expression of his and Ismail Merchant's vision and careers and whole lives. And it was really exciting and architecturally and sort of from a programmatic place. I actually learned a lot. But, yeah, And I mean, the image thing is so important that we have actually this software that we use to organize all of our references. And I've been scanning things since college, and we have thousands and thousands and thousands of reference images that are organized in a software that is shared between everyone in the studios. And we are constantly using it as a resource to understand how to approach any variety of problems that we're faced with and as a. Well, for all kinds of ideas and. But it's a really fun tool. So. Yeah.
- [25:02]
Dan Rubenstein
And, Andre, do you ever dip into these photos? Like, how often do you.
- [25:06]
Andre Herrero
I love the reference bank that we have. It's amazing. It's so fun. And. And it's. It's. I'll. I'll. I'll be diving. I don't know half of what's in there. Adam's the historian of the two of us. But I just, I. I'm like y. Saint Laurent, you know, he said, how would you catch a trend? And he would just open the window and, like, catch trend like a cold. That's kind of like me diving into Adam's reference image library. So I'll go in there. I don't know what I'm looking at, but then I start. I'll start building architecture based off of it. And then, you know, it turns into something interesting. And so it's. It's really, it's really fun to play off of Adam's reference. Reference images like that to.
- [25:49]
Dan Rubenstein
Well, let me ask you this. Like, what's your. What's next for you? What is your next big sort of project on the horizon?
- [25:59]
Andre Herrero
Well, we have lots of projects on the horizon.
- [26:01]
Dan Rubenstein
Well, any. Anything aside from just, you know, client work or.
- [26:05]
Adam Charlep Hyman
I mean, one thing is that we designed a restaurant in Hudson, New York, that's opening at the end of the summer. And we're really excited about that.
- [26:15]
Dan Rubenstein
Is it your first restaurant?
- [26:16]
Adam Charlep Hyman
Mm.
- [26:17]
Dan Rubenstein
Okay.
- [26:18]
Adam Charlep Hyman
Well, it's our first restaurant from scratch.
- [26:21]
Dan Rubenstein
Okay.
- [26:21]
Adam Charlep Hyman
It's our first restaurant where we kind of invented the whole world of it. We did update eat the original eat on Madison Avenue the other a few months ago. We are participating in a show in LA at MARTA Gallery with the lights that I described. So that is happening in September.
- [26:57]
Andre Herrero
And then on the. On the architecture with a capital A side, which is pretty exciting. We're working on a 160,000 square foot bio lab space in Missoula, Montana that is all out of mass timber, which is really exciting.
- [27:15]
Dan Rubenstein
And if you had to describe your practice in three words, what would you say? I'll let both of you pick three.
- [27:25]
Andre Herrero
Soulful, artistic, rigorous.
- [27:28]
Adam Charlep Hyman
I'm down for that.
- [27:29]
Andre Herrero
Sounds good.
- [27:30]
Dan Rubenstein
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- [30:12]
Sophie Lou Jacobson
Yeah, I think that I was very fortunate to have the upbringing that I had. So both my parents are French, as you mentioned, and they moved to Seattle pretty much right before I was born for my dad's job. And so I grew up in Seattle, but two French parents. We spoke French at home, we spent summers in France. We would do French school outside of normal public school hours. And they really, you know, made sure to give us the French culture, knowing that we weren't able to get it from where we were living. But at the same time, when I think about my, my childhood and my upbringing, it was, you know, Seattle was a major part of that. And I didn't go to like a French NISS or anything like that. So I really got to understand both cultures very well and very deeply. And Seattle is an absolutely beautiful place to grow up. It's so calm and peaceful and beautiful and so much nature. And, you know, it's. It's not a big city, but it's not a small city. So it's a very comfortable place for. For kids. And. And I think having that access to nature at all times is something that I absolutely took for granted back then and realize now that it had a lasting impact on me and my sensibilities towards the world. But then we ended up moving back to France when I was 16, so I finished high school in Paris, which at the time, I wasn't happy about, which is funny to say in hindsight, but, you know, it was a. It was a difficult cultural shock move at a time that's hard for teenagers. But I think that actually making that move and sort of learning how to really adapt to a new culture at that age also gave me a sort of flexibility in terms of understanding people and knowing how to navigate within different cultures and different societies and different cities. And that's something that I think I try to sort of integrate in my work today. I really want to sort of look at a lot of different types of people and make work that will respond to a lot of different types of people, and a lot of different types of people will understand and feel connected to. So I think that the movement between the two countries, at the end of the day really just gave me a deeper appreciation and understanding of humans, in a sense, and understanding their differences and sensibilities. And then aside from that, you know, I definitely think that I'm very drawn to a lot of aspects of French culture when it comes to living. You know, the food, the rituals, the quality of life, the pace of life. That is certainly something that I want to add into all of the work that I do. And I think that living in the States gave me a really nice opportunity to sort of highlight some of these rituals that maybe are missing from day to day life for a lot of people. And. And that's kind of, I think, where I've found my niche at the moment.
- [33:40]
Dan Rubenstein
And how did you get into design?
- [33:42]
Sophie Lou Jacobson
So I got into design, actually, because I. Growing up, I think I was more drawn to architecture. I didn't really understand design as a field or know that it was a field. And I knew that I loved homes and spaces and interiors and objects, so architecture made sense. When I moved to France, The. To be perfectly honest, the academic rigor of French school and university was very hard for me, coming from an American school. And after I graduated high school, I kind of wanted to take a break before jumping into university right away. So I decided to go to art school instead. And the way that it operates.
- [34:32]
Dan Rubenstein
Where was the art school?
- [34:33]
Sophie Lou Jacobson
It was in Paris, so it was like, often in France. And I think in most of Europe, when you go to art school, you have one year of, like, a prep school where you're getting your portfolio ready. And that's what I did for that year. And at that school, which is called Et Un, I met a teacher who was an industrial designer. And she sort of took me under her wing and guided me towards that field. And I discovered that that was a field that that could be a career. And I realized that that was what I wanted to do.
- [35:11]
Dan Rubenstein
And, you know, at some point, you lived in London for a while, and then. And then to New York. Tell me about that sort of early part of your post college life.
- [35:20]
Sophie Lou Jacobson
The first pieces that I created under my studio, which just under my name, which eventually became my studio, was a collection of glassware, which it was in response to a brief for a group show during New York Design Week in 2018, called Furnishing Utopia, which is. It was a recurring group show that happened, I think, three or four years in a row with a focus on the American Shaker movement and sort of asking designers to reinterpret some of the Shaker philosophy into contemporary design. And at that year that I participated, the focus was specifically on chores. And so I created a collection of glass objects that were designed to be able to easily make your own cleaning products at home using just vinegar and water and baking soda, essentially. But the objects themselves were very expressive and decorative and beautiful. And the idea being that if you create objects that are attractive and that people feel emotionally connected with, then they'll be more likely to use them, and that'll encourage certain patterns of behavior. And that was the first time I worked in glass. And I sort of immediately fell in love with the material and the way that I could respond to the designs that I had and sort of see the way that I was designing leap off of the page in this really almost immediate way through glass. And those pieces ended up being sort of the core of the first collection that I launched a year later, which is what really set off the studio.
- [37:22]
Dan Rubenstein
And, you know, how do you sort of describe that collection that kind of really set things off? Like, if you had to just describe the sort of aesthetic that you're kind of Creating that now you've kind of become known for. What does that look like?
- [37:35]
Sophie Lou Jacobson
So the collection. The first collection was. It was very graphic. It was very colorful, quite playful. I think at the time and still today, I was very interested in bringing joy into people's lives through both the aesthetic of the object and the interaction with the object. I think that over time, that expression of joy has transformed, and it's not always based on so much color and so much obvious playfulness. So the collection has moved and evolved a lot since I started with that original. That original line, but I think that it's still very relevant because of the sort of emotional aspect of it and what I was trying to get the people who are using the objects to feel when engaging with them.
- [38:44]
Dan Rubenstein
What's your most popular design at the moment?
- [38:48]
Sophie Lou Jacobson
I think there's different answers to that in the different sort of areas of my work. So I launched the Bouquet collection, which is the stemware, clear stemware with the sort of ridged edges and little dew balls on the stem. I launched that a year ago, and that's been extremely popular since I launched it. So I would say that at the moment, that's. That's sort of the most popular houseware. But the Flora collection of lighting that I did in collaboration with. In common with, is still, you know, just an absolute fan favorite. And it's sort of the gift that keeps giving, which is really wonderful. And, you know, it seems like people are still really very excited by it, which is so great to see. And strangely enough, the product that I launched the studio with in 2019, which is. It's called the Ripple cup. It's a small, little colorful glass with wavy edges, is still, you know, kind of the bread and butter and. Yeah. And it.
- [40:02]
Adam Charlep Hyman
Is.
- [40:02]
Dan Rubenstein
It. Okay. They're kind of like tumblers. They could almost. They're kind of traditional, but you could also think of them as almost like groovy, 60s, 70s something.
- [40:13]
Sophie Lou Jacobson
Yeah, right. Absolutely. Yeah.
- [40:15]
Dan Rubenstein
And they come in different colors, I'm assuming, because I'm looking at it on your side as we speak. And. And so I guess that's. That's your. That's the bread and butter. That's what's.
- [40:25]
Sophie Lou Jacobson
I mean, in a way, it's just. It's still, you know, it's. It's what really, like. I think that cup, for lack of a better word, sort of went viral, and it just was so popular for a few years, and it sort of is still just, like, reeling off of that, but it's also sort of taken an absolute Life of its own. So I. In a lot of ways, I don't own that design anymore. I never did any kind of copyright on it or anything like that. And now it's just. I went to a manufacturing trade show earlier in the year, and the ripple cup was on every manufacturer's shelf. And. And I. I spoke with my factory, and they were like, where did this design even come from? They didn't know that they were the first people to make it. But, you know, I think that that's kind of funny, and I really don't mind it. It's sort of. It's sort of become ubiquitous, which is, as an industrial designer, kind of like a huge success and goal. And I would really just like to one day be able to produce it on a scale where it can be actually really, really affordable and see it in even more places.
- [41:38]
Dan Rubenstein
Yeah, it's pretty affordable now. I mean, it's about. What is it, $35 per cup or something like that? Yeah, that's pretty good. The world of grand tourists.
- [41:47]
Sophie Lou Jacobson
You know, it could be like. Like the duralects glass, which is, what, like $5 or something like that?
- [41:54]
Dan Rubenstein
And. And tell me about this new adventure in lighting.
- [41:56]
Sophie Lou Jacobson
Yes. So in Commonwealth is a lighting design studio that are also based in New York. They started off as being really just lighting, but they have recently opened a showroom in Tribeca called Quarters, where they're expanding into furniture and table top. And it's this really big, beautiful project. There's going to be a bar, there's, you know, a pantry. So we started our studios at a similar time and met right before the pandemic. And I think they. Their name is in common with. Collaboration was always sort of part of their business model, and they appreciated the sort of exploration that I was having with glass and sensitivity to the materiality of working with glass, and so suggested that we do a collaboration together. And we. Then the pandemic happened, and things moved very slowly. So for a couple of years, we were, you know, sending each other sketches every few months, and nothing really happened until there was an aha moment with a vase that I had designed for a French company called La Romaine Edition. It was the poppy vase. It's like a red vase with black sort of balls around it and a wavy top. And I was staring at the vase and I was like, oh, if we turn this upside down, it would be a beautiful pendant. And I sent that to Nick and Felicia. They got really excited, and immediately we started fleshing this out into a much larger collection, which I never imagined that it would end up being a 22 piece collection. And I think that was really Nick and Felicia driving that ambition, which was so incredible for me to, you know, have them as partners. For that reason. And more than just manufacturing partners, we were like absolute design partners. And that vase was the beginning of it, but it turned into something much bigger that we all worked on collaboratively. And I think that what is really successful about that collection, we, again, we were like, looking at a lot of Venetian glass craft and history, and we both work with the same glassblower, and he's very well trained in a lot of those techniques. So that was something that we wanted to incorporate and sort of create a collection of lighting that's in production, but that still has that dedication to craft, which is something that we used to see a lot but isn't always as prevalent anymore in the way that things are made today. And our relationship with the glassblower sort of allowed for that to happen. And I think because of all of that, we were really successful in creating something that has those old world sensibilities, but also is very contemporary because it's, you know, sort of the balance between the craft and the production aspects. And we shot the collection at a castle in Austria. Very, very, you know, very warm.
- [45:34]
Dan Rubenstein
I'm actually looking at it now. It's very super warm and traditional with a lot of paper and wood and.
- [45:40]
Sophie Lou Jacobson
Yeah, art, but, you know, very historical. But then we're seeing these lights in very modern, very contemporary projects, and they look just as good in one or the other. And I think that that is really where the success of the collection is, is that it's something sort of a little bit surprising and different, but also that easily fits in different environments.
- [46:05]
Dan Rubenstein
And, you know, you mentioned the word decorative arts or the. The term decorative arts a lot when, you know, there are a lot of young designers that don't like that term and always have, like, shied away from it. It's almost like a dirty word. Like, in a sense, they'd be like, insulted if you call. If you called what they do decorative arts. Are you someone who, like, likes to use the term rather than, like, design, like. Or do you think you're. Are you. Are we kind of over design? Like, sometimes I do. I feel like that word has become so overused that now it kind of doesn't mean anything anymore.
- [46:39]
Sophie Lou Jacobson
Yeah, you know, I haven't even really thought about that. I didn't even. It didn't occur to me that decorative arts was a. That people didn't Necessarily like that word. I think for me it just describes what I do the most because it's not just design, it's not just industrial design. And like you said, design is such a wide scope of things. And I wouldn't call myself an artist either because art is a completely different field and set of considerations. And my work is still very human focused and, you know, functional. Not that art isn't human focused, but it's, you know, it's functional. And yeah, perhaps decoration has taken over the years. It got sort of a bad, bad reputation. But for me, decoration is sort of what gives soul and life to the objects we surround ourselves with and the spaces that we live in. And even when there's no decoration or an object has been completely stripped of decoration, that's a decorative choice to do that. So I think it's just a term that I respond to. And you know, my favorite museum is the Muse d'art Deco in Paris. It's the Museum of Decorative Arts. Like when I'm looking at my favorite designers through history, they're referred to as in the world of decorative arts. So, yeah, maybe it's time for that word to make a comeback.
- [48:26]
Dan Rubenstein
And what's next for you?
- [48:28]
Sophie Lou Jacobson
So I am currently working on a show that will be launching in London in September during London Design Festival, which is a showroom installation at De Gournay, which is a wallpaper company based in London. But they have showrooms in London and Paris and New York and Los Angeles now.
- [48:51]
Dan Rubenstein
And they very famous for their hand painted wallpaper.
- [48:54]
Sophie Lou Jacobson
Exactly. They make these beautiful hand painted wallpapers and embroidered wal. And the aesthetic is also very sort of old world traditional and reinventing and reinterpreting those techniques and those aesthetics for today's world. So there is a really, I think, beautiful relationship between what they do and what I do. And they often will have designers sort of take over their showrooms for different activations, either design weeks or trade shows, things like this. And they reached out at a certain point, not quite a year ago to work with them. And so I have been designing a new collection to show in that space, sort of responding to the wallpapers that are going to be on display at that time. And it's really exciting because there will be, of course, you know, a lot of faces, which is what people are used to seeing from me. But I'm also going to be showing some lighting which of course I've done the Flora collection, but this will be the first lights that I'm producing on my own under my own name, not a collaborative project, and a mirror, which I'm also very excited about, and some sconces. So it was a really beautiful opportunity to sort of explore and expand in some of the ways that I've been thinking about over the past year. And I yeah, it's going to be colorful and I hope really beautiful. And I also am working with a good friend of mine, Christopher Colley, on the project who is an antique dealer here in New York, and he's going to be helping me with the sonography of the space and the furniture selection and set dressing. So, you know, I love to work with people and friends. So it's yeah, it's going to be a good project.
- [51:03]
Dan Rubenstein
And if you have to describe who Sophie Lou Jacobson is in three words.
- [51:09]
Sophie Lou Jacobson
Will those be so I think I would say curious, optimistic and evolving.
- [51:17]
Dan Rubenstein
Before we return to the program, another word from our sponsor, Lumens. One of my guests today. The duo behind Charlie Pyman Herrero, are masters of the mix and know how to pull inspiration from various sources to create something new and unexpected. On lumens.com you'll find a ton of delightful and unexpected designs to choose from, from both established brands, you know, to emerging ones that truly make a statement when it comes to an unexpected pop of color. You might as well go right to the Memphis Milano. These pieces are still being produced from the archive of the legendary Memphis Group, and they're delightfully colorful and shapely. Or you might want to investigate the classics that never really go out of style and always remain a focal point in any room with Cappellini. The Peacock chair by Drawer Studio, for example, with its folded felt back, is a stunner. Lastly, nothing quite creates a focal point like a work of design by British legend Tom Dixon. On lumens.com, you'll find tons of examples, with my favorite being the melt line of pendants, sconces and table lamps. These glass blobs in various colors are just about the grooviest thing you'll be able to put in a room besides getting a lava lamp. To find your own groove online, visit lumens.com that's L U M E N S.com not everyone in the world of architecture and design follows a traditional path, and my last two guests today prove that sometimes an outsider's point of view is just what's needed in order to shake things up. Partners in life and work Noam de Vere and Daniel Rauschwerger of the Furn Bond Bond stands for Bureau of Noam And Daniel met in Tel Aviv where the two were working in the world of journalism before the two decided to study at Harvard together, followed by a stint at the famed architecture firm OMA and others before setting out on their own. Since then they have created transgressive art gallery spaces, inventive apartments and fashion boutiques, and a revitalized architectural language of desire for the much talked about coastal gay community of the Fire Island Pines. I caught up with Noam and Daniel from their home in New York. You know, I read the two that the two of you met working at a newspaper in Tel Aviv, which of course I think I had known, but I keep forgetting it because you guys have become so successful as designers. So tell me a little bit about your lives before starting in a newspaper. Noam, let's start with you.
- [53:53]
Noam de Vere
Yeah, so architecture is actually new for the both of us. I was a journalist for 12 years and I've been practicing for only nine. So actually I had a full life before this. We both grew up in Israel and as you know, in Israel the military service is mandatory. And I was lucky enough to get into the IDF radio, which in Israel is a little bit like npr, so it's quite liberal, it's very, very popular. So I started in radio, then moved to television, did a bunch of things in television, both on the hard news angle and kind of more design and fun stuff, more entertainment. And then in my last kind of position in press, I was the architecture writer for Haaretz newspaper, which is similar to the New York Times or the Guardian, so the liberal left leaning newspaper in Israel. By that time I already studied architecture, although I didn't really practice. And you know, I was this kind of big shot, you know, in a very, in a tight pond. It's not hard to be a big shot. And then I was lucky enough to be invited by Daniel's professor. He went to Bezalel Academy in Jerusalem for architecture. And I would get his invite to be a jury on final reviews. I already knew Daniel wrote for the newspaper. I kind of had a crush on him, I guess, but then really didn't manifest until he, you know, stepped into the room. And I realized, like, this is going to be the rest of my life. And then of course, kind of the connection with the newspaper was really nice because we, you know, we started spending so much time together and we would spend the morning writing and kind of like, you know, go to the beach and, you know, have this, you know, really beautiful period of falling in love and kind of thinking how this is you know, forever.
- [56:07]
Dan Rubenstein
And Daniel, what about you? What is your leading up to writing? You studied design or. Tell me about that, that life before you met Noam.
- [56:19]
Daniel Rauschwerger
Yeah, so actually I grew up practicing classical piano and I was pretty serious about it. And probably until the age of 19 or 20, I started going to the music academy in Tel Aviv University. And it was also kind of actually, you know, Noam spoke about the military. I didn't go to the military because of heart surgery. And so I found myself basically at around 19 or 20 year old in the music academy and thinking like, is this actually what I want to do for the rest of my life or do I want to do something else? And I somehow decided that architecture is a direction that I've always been interested in and started studying it around the age of 20 at Betsalel Academy. So that kind of started bubbling up and then journalism almost like came into that from a very different angle. I grew up in Jaffa, which is just south of Tel Aviv, and both of my parents are very serious artists. And so I was really. I grew up kind of immersed in the Tel Aviv art scene, which, as you know, it's similar to the small pond of journalism. Everything is small in Israel. It's a very small scene of art as well. And so writing about art, what kind.
- [57:51]
Dan Rubenstein
Of artists were they?
- [57:53]
Daniel Rauschwerger
My dad is a painter, his name is Jan Rauschwerger. And my mom, Galit is a photographer and etching artist. And I think that there was always kind of maybe a spirit of also just hosting a lot of their friends at home and hosting concerts at home for classical music. Lots of like people from like poets to musicians and other visual artists that were kind of like really frequent visitors at home. And so I think that the connection to the art scene there and then writing about it was really natural. That really started kind of where journalism basically began. So I started writing about art really from very familiar knowledge. And I think that there is something about growing up with it, even though at times it's very challenging, especially on the financial front. But culturally you have such a kind of rich childhood. And I think that you also are able to talk about things like arts that for a lot of people are kind of very high as something that's just a matter of fact or part of life. And I think that's actually, you know, without knowing where we would be today, it's actually kind of brought so much of the background and the confidence to do what we do today. So it's really related to that, that.
- [59:29]
Dan Rubenstein
Those years and you know, you guys are writing it in this world and then at some point you guys decided to kind of, you know, jump ship, as it were, and go to Harvard and study, you know, graduate level design. And I believe you worked in different degrees. So tell me about that decision to kind of say. I was going to say adios, but like whatever, say adios to, you know, a life in Tel Aviv and to kind of go all the way to Harvard and to go on this adventure together. Noam, tell me about that decision.
- [60:09]
Noam de Vere
So it was, you know, sometimes you say it's gradually, then suddenly. So I was, you know, I loved writing and I loved, you know, I loved the media world and I was really quite veteran at what I did. In 2010 I went to cover the Venice Bay annual for Horror and I met all of these incredible people there, like Michael Bullock, who's the editor of Pinup, and Philipp Porster, who's partner in business, and Juergen Meyer and a bunch of these like, group of, I would say a list design. Homosexuals. Can I say homosexuals or should I say a list design. Gays.
- [60:49]
Dan Rubenstein
Yeah, A gays or a gays.
- [60:52]
Noam de Vere
I don't know what.
- [60:53]
Dan Rubenstein
Yeah.
- [60:53]
Noam de Vere
What goes on, you know, what can go on record. But who were fabulous and did all of these really exciting things. And I saw and they were my age or kind of my age, and I thought, wow, this is really something I want to do. I started looking at graduate degrees, first in Europe, then through a friend's recommendation started kind of looking at the opportunities in the U.S. i first got into the enrollment process through the Fulbright. I actually got to Fulbright and then decided to forego it to go to Harvard because the Fulbright, the way it works, they usually pick the school for you. And they didn't want me to go to Harvard. So I, you know, I already, I. Through the Fulbright, I was enrolled into Harvard. I found somebody to pay for it and Daniel said, I'm coming, you know, I'll come for the ride and I'm going to get into Harvard is well, so we moved together and that's exactly what happened.
- [61:53]
Dan Rubenstein
And was there sort of a culture shock kind of coming into. Because after that you guys weren't oma and sort of, I believe, and you kind of sold yourself as a package deal, which I think is so rare, as you've said in other interviews. And that's obviously kind of a funny thing to tell an employer, like, you need us as a couple or else like. Or that's it. What was that like kind of coming into the Working world of design, you know, at a place like oma, which was here in New York, correct?
- [62:22]
Noam de Vere
Yeah, it was. Well, Shoichi Gamatsu was my professor, who was one of the partners to New York, was my professor. I mean, just incredible. I mean, always and always told me, whenever you are ready, you and Daniel, you know, come for an interview. And he being the person, really the incredible person, mentor, architect that he is, he saw something in us and wanted to accommodate it. And even when we, you know, got into OMA and started working, he was like, well, one day when you'll do your own thing, like he has, he was. He had this extreme clarity about, you know, where we're going, much more than us. And OMA was this incredible, you know, home, school, tormented environment at times, but overall, like an incredible experience of creativity and design.
- [63:21]
Dan Rubenstein
When you guys set out on your own, what was you in your head? Like, what was the. What was like, you're like, our Bond architecture is going to be this, like, what. What did you want to do? What was in your head?
- [63:33]
Daniel Rauschwerger
We're probably going to have pretty different replies to this.
- [63:36]
Dan Rubenstein
Noma, tell me a little about what was in your head.
- [63:41]
Noam de Vere
So we started Bond. We looked for a name. I think there was at the time I watched the McDonald's movie and there was a line there about how the founder had a Polish last name and somebody told him just call it McDonald's. Nobody would ever know how to, you know, how to say your name. So that's exactly our case, like Vera Rauschverger, like, would be so complicated. So we went with Bond, which spells the Bureau of Gnome and Daniel. So it kind of started about us, about our interests and kind of whatever we can get. And the mission statement was to take on one hand, you know, our editing and communication skills as from our, you know, des journalists. And really as an Architect, this is 75% of what you do. You develop design, you edit, you communicate it. If you do it well and hopefully you are a little talented, you can get somewhere. And the other part was to take, you know, what we learned at oma, this kind of edginess and kind of rush for creativity and something new and put them together and do something very different. And I would add to that that although today, obviously it's much more pronounced and articulated in our work, but obviously the queer angle was super important from day one. And talking about design, I don't think that there's necessarily queer design, but there is design for queer people or for lifestyle. And I think that that's Something that kind of was it, you know, backstage as we started. But we immediately realized it's going to be like the spine of our work in the office.
- [65:37]
Dan Rubenstein
Daniel, are you going to disagree and say you dreamed about producing post offices and libraries and universities or tell me about your. What was your. What was in your head?
- [65:50]
Daniel Rauschwerger
So I mean, we said before gradually and then suddenly. I think that was also the case with the office. It started kind of really kind. There were a few projects that maybe started going. But then there was one project that really tipped the scale, which was Company Gallery. It was just too big for. I was still working a full time job and that was a project that was too big to just moonlight. And so I think at that point both of us needed to be involved and just trust the process. This is going to become something. I think that there's the kind of social agenda of being a queer. Office was really always very important and we didn't wanted to kind of like slip away. And luckily it also kind of. I think there has been a bit of a kind of queer renaissance in New York in the past few years and a lot of new culture that kind of really came out of COVID And it has to do with nightlife and it has to do with art. Specific artists that really kind of surfaced after. During this time. And I think for us there was this really kind of all of this coincidence of culture and art that we kind of felt that we are a part of. And in a way, Company Gallery was really at the intersection of those things.
- [67:22]
Dan Rubenstein
Tell people a little bit about Company Gallery and what it is and what you guys did there.
- [67:27]
Daniel Rauschwerger
So Company Gallery is owned by Sophie Myrner and is a gallery that is in the Bowery area, kind of lower soho on Broome street, corner of Elizabeth. It used to be in a different location. And they found this building that was a cold storage warehouse and in a pretty kind of bad condition when we started working on it, both technically leaking, no mechanical systems. Like everything was really kind of needed to be touched in order to make it into an art space. And it was a very big project for us who really just started the Office the same year. So there was huge challenge, but it was like if there was any challenge that we were going to step up to, this is it. This is your chance. And I think we really took it with really all of that responsibility. And we tried to do that kind of with every project. And I think that's in the case of this one. It was somehow trying to preserve this very New York envelope of A building not touching it too much and still keeping some of the grit that the building has and almost whatever becomes the art gallery space, still exposing it as a bit of an insert within a warehouse. So something that doesn't completely erase the history. And I think that if we talk a little bit about what is our mission statement or where do we lie in terms of our design direction, I think that we grew up in the context of really Tel Aviv, which is very like truly recognized for its connection to Bauhaus, an enormous collection of buildings that are international style. But then when you work in New York, it's really a very different context. It's very mixed and diverse. There's a lot more kind of like older buildings, newer buildings. And you have to be open to working with so many different styles. There isn't this kind of like one direction of modernism. And so I think there's always this kind of maybe kind of a gradient between the modernist cleanliness and minimal side that you strive for, but at the other end, something that's also young and queer and is kind of like, fuck the Bauhaus and more about kind of celebrating also trash culture and kind of nightlife. And I think we play that ping pong many times in our work and we like to kind of have things that are off the moment and color and playfulness in the projects, sense of humor. And in many ways I think that really started. You can really see it very clearly at Company. So it was having this kind of lesbian bar downstairs with pink neon lights and a gallery that could also maybe in a different setting, look kind of like a dark room in a club. So there's a lot of these references that I think if you are from our world, you might see them. And if you are not, maybe it will just look kind of like a clean gallery to you. But they are there.
- [71:03]
Noam de Vere
I think it's often that people or architecture designer would say, oh, what would the client think about this? And for me it's like, oh, what would the client think about this? Meaning, let's go for it, right? It's a part of your visual world and it's a part of, I think that the architecture sometimes is seen by its creators as something so complicated and so serious, but at the end of the day it's something so tactile. That's the spaces we live in. So Andy Warhol said it's always a mix of high and low. So I think that's kind of a key driver in our work.
- [71:44]
Dan Rubenstein
And lately you've worked on. You are Working on at least, I think, half a dozen projects. And the beloved Fire island, which is near New York, for those who don't know. It's sort of like a gay resort community. I don't know, it's like 100 miles from the city. You guys have your own house there that you re. That you've designed. And it's kind of part of this sort of study that you guys have done about sort of like this sort of queer lifestyle and how it relates to design and modernism evenly even. How did that sort of love affair of the island and these homes in particular come about to explain to people that maybe might be listening from Paris? I have no idea.
- [72:31]
Noam de Vere
As you mentioned, Fire Island Pines is a predominantly queer community located on Fire island, which is a barrier island south of Long island. There are 14 communities throughout Ireland and there are two that are queer. Cher Grove and the Pines. The Pines was established in the 1960s, first for. For straight families, wholesome community. And then late 60s, early 70s, mostly homosexual men started buying properties there. You know, with queer liberation, you know, human rights kind of flourishing throughout. And a lot of very important people, a lot of gay important people started buying there, like Kelvin Klein, Andy Warhol would frequent. You'll have Hockney, the artist, the British artist would come and paint there. So it was this incredible place of culture. It went through a few cycles. First through of course, the AIDS epidemic, then this type of revival. And what we're seeing today in the Pines is real renaissance of the community after Covid, where many of the houses, about a third of the houses swapped tents and many of the new owners are younger owners. So there's a lot of new energy in terms of the architecture. The Pines has really this kind of incredible contextual modernism that was developed for men, essentially for gay men, which means that the houses are sexy. There's this spaces for gathering are much larger. There is a huge emphasis on voyeurism and what you see and where do you see and kind of spaces of desire. And all of this was encapsulated and was not really highly discussed, I think, until Christopher Rawlins book about Horace Gifford, the architect that kind of was really pivotal in making the Pines what it is. So about a decade ago, everybody started talking about this avant garde, you know, Fire island modernism. And we came to Fire Island 10 years ago, our first summer in New York. I was interning for Charles Renfro at Diller's Cafido in Renfro, and Charles had a house there. And we came on the 4th of July and our Little bird mines just exploded. And it was clear to us that this is somewhere that we want to start frequent. And we had a share and then kind of through that experience, got to know a lot of people and kind of understand more about the architectural history of the island. The first client approached us right at the beginning. It was a 1965 Kithaus, meaning that it was kind of brought to the island in bits and pieces and then assembled. Looks like Palm Springs kind of modernist house. It already went through a renovation. We kind of needed a big update, and that was our first project. Then through working on that house, also buying our own house and renovating it, people started approaching us. And as you mentioned, we are now starting our. Or in the process of working on our 10th project in the Pines.
- [76:04]
Dan Rubenstein
10Th.
- [76:05]
Noam de Vere
So that's about. I would say it's 600 houses. So it's almost 2% of the houses. And it's incredible. We have this gift that we get to work in a special community with incredible context. And I would say the Pines is one of these places where culture, gender, history and design all collide and we get to work within this context. So some of the projects are smaller. We also help fellow younger owners with kitchens and bathrooms and simpler stuff. But we are starting construction on our first ground up in the island, which is actually built on the single largest lot in the island. It's three lots that are joined together, and it's going to be really incredible. It's a house that thinks about Fire island in the next 50 years. It looks a little bit like Villa Savoie on the beach, meaning that it's raised above the sea level about the female level and thinks about all of. And kind of like brings into mind all of the different cognitive experience that we had in the Pines. So where do you host people? Where do you gossip? Where, you know, how do you see different kind of like vantage points from area to area? It's actually. The house is actually quite small, for the footprint is actually quite small. But it has all of these different attitudes towards the landscape, towards the human landscape, and we're really, really excited for it. I think it's going to be. I think it's going to be something really special.
- [77:47]
Dan Rubenstein
And as one of my last questions, if you guys went back to. At one of the lecture halls at Harvard and you addressed a series of, you know, a bunch of students in grad, you know, at the graduate level, and they introduce you as, like, you know, returning champions, you know, these kids that went out and built a very successful firm that is progressive, that does lots of fun, different things and building queer spaces and all of this stuff. You know, what sort of cold water would you throw on the mood there to teach these kids? Like, these are going to be your challenges in building a career like that. What would you tell them?
- [78:31]
Noam de Vere
I always think that there were another, like, 10,000 designers who are stronger maybe than us, both at GSD and at OMA. I mean, really incredible, incredible designers that, you know, I looked up to. But I think that there is a huge. There's a big difference between running an office and selling design. Right? Because at the end of the day, what we do, we sell design, we sell hours, we sell ideas, we sell creative thinking and being completely enamored in, just in the design. And I think that what we strive to do, this is a commercial enterprise. So I think that what we. Our big challenge and also our big success is that we managed to keep the level of design and the level of interest for projects. Right? We didn't go into this kind of like, super high end, you know, $20 million apartment, although, if you have one that needs design, I'll do it for you. But, you know, we kept it with young, relatively young clients, fresh ideas and fresh programs and needs. And I think that that's our success. Meaning that we can maintain a highly designed, kind of forward office in New York with the costs that are associated with that, but still maintain the level of design and level of excitement that we had on day one.
- [79:58]
Dan Rubenstein
And Daniel, would you agree with that?
- [80:03]
Andre Herrero
Yeah.
- [80:03]
Daniel Rauschwerger
I also think that it makes a lot of sense to have a partner, whether it's your real, like, you know, in my case, husband, but. Or not. But I think that it's much harder to do it alone. And, you know, I'm not a very good manager. I don't think I would be anywhere if I didn't have the collaboration with Noam. And you have to know your strengths and you have to really know that, like, you know, what can you do? What is it that you can do better in the context of a business of design? And I think that there's sometimes we play on those roles too, and maybe we split the projects, but we'd like to sometimes involve each other and have a second opinion. And you're sitting with, let's say, a couple to design their house. It's good to have two voices in the room too. So I think that there's something about that. And then from the beginning, take yourself very seriously. You know, from the beginning, we immediately knew that, you know, we have to work with someone on pr, we have to photograph the projects very seriously and to put time into things that are a little bit more kind of on the marketing side. But when you're young, how is anybody going to know about your projects if it's not through things that you publish? And so I think sometimes people think that we are maybe a bigger team or that we've been around for longer, but, you know, it is very, very tight. It's a small studio and we look at everything that comes out. And so I think for me, that there is something that we also want to keep. We like that smallness and we like the intimacy of having a little studio that is where we all develop ideas together and is very contextual. You know, I think this office couldn't be anywhere else. It's a very New York scene and New York culture and everything is kind of about what is going on here.
- [82:14]
Dan Rubenstein
Do you guys think you could ever. Do you think you're going to sort of stay here in New York till the end of your days? You're going to be one of the old gay couples in the pines with those little. They have these little kind of carts that people drive people around.
- [82:31]
Noam de Vere
Yeah. I hope our work takes us different places. Of course, this is our center, but we're looking at doing like a tiny sabbatical in Europe the year after next and teach in a European university. I hope our works takes us to other places and maybe we get to spend more considerable amount of times in places that we had no idea about. While the team here is kind of like quite solid and strong. So I do, of course, New York is our center, but I think that we both realized that we need, in order to continue creating and kind of thinking about things differently, we need to continue to travel and meet new people and have different challenges and not do the same thing that we're doing today in 10 years.
- [83:27]
Dan Rubenstein
Thank you to all of my guests, Adam, Andre, Sophie, Noam and Daniel, as well as to our sponsor, Lumens, for making this episode happen. The editor of the Grand Tourist is Stan Hall. To keep this going, don't forget to visit our website and sign up for our newsletter, the Grand Tourist curator@thegrandtourist.net and follow me on Instagram, Ann Rubenstein. And don't forget to follow the Grand Tourist on Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to listen. And leave us a rating or comment. Every little bit helps. Till next time.