Dragnet: The Big Couple (EP4694)

Summary

The Great Detectives Present Dragnet (Old Time Radio)

Episode: Dragnet: The Big Couple (EP4694)
Release Date: May 3, 2025
Host: Adam Graham

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Introduction

In this episode of The Great Detectives Present Dragnet, host Adam Graham delves into the classic radio episode titled "The Big Couple." Graham meticulously guides listeners through the intricate investigation led by Officers Friday and Romero as they unravel the deceptive schemes of con artists Tom and Doris Herbert.

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Case Overview

[02:34] The episode begins with a narration setting the stage for a true crime story deeply rooted in fraud and deception. Officers Friday and Romero are assigned to a bunco detail targeting a veteran husband-wife confidence team, Tom and Doris Herbert, who have a 17-year history of swindling churches across various cities.

Notable Quote:
"Their criminal record dates back 17 years. Their masters in the art of swindling." – Officer Friday [04:01]

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Investigation Unfolds

The officers' investigation takes them to Reverend Andrew Olson's church, where they first interact with the Herberts under the guise of researching a church history book. Initially, the Herberts appear sincere, but discrepancies soon emerge.

Key Events:

• Initial Interaction: Officers approach Reverend Olson about the Herberts' project. Upon learning that the publishing of the church history book was abruptly canceled, suspicion arises.

  Notable Quote:
  "They suggested that I talk it over with the church board, so I did." – Officer Friday [08:58]

• Financial Discrepancies: It is revealed that the Herberts convinced the church to finance the publication, leading to a significant loss of $804.61. The officers discover that the Herberts have a history of defrauding religious institutions.

• Tracking the Herberts: Utilizing APBs and collaborating with other law enforcement agencies, Friday and Romero trace the Herberts through various states, finally linking them to a new scam selling fraudulent health insurance policies exploiting the polio fear prevalent at the time.

  Notable Quote:
  "They promised everything, and they had a lot of takers." – Officer Friday [16:01]

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Confrontation and Resolution

The climax of the investigation occurs when Officers Friday and Romero identify the Herberts at a bar near the Lockheed Air Terminal. A tense confrontation ensues as they attempt to apprehend Tom and Doris Herbert before their suspected flight to Mexico City.

Notable Quotes:
"We have to get a plane." – Officer Romero [27:33]
"We have to get the plane. We can't let them escape." – Officer Friday [27:39]

Despite initial resistance and manipulation by the Herberts, the officers successfully detain them, leading to their conviction on multiple counts of grand theft. The Herberts are sentenced to confinement, showcasing the effectiveness and perseverance of law enforcement.

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Host Reflections

After the reenactment, Adam Graham provides insightful commentary on the case's relevance to modern-day scams, particularly highlighting the health insurance fraud employed by the Herberts.

Insights:

• Parallel to Modern Scams: Graham draws parallels between the Herberts' exploitation of polio fears and contemporary scams that prey on societal anxieties to deceive unsuspecting victims.

  Notable Quote:
  "The health insurance scam is particularly salient. The fear of polio in those days was huge for parents and essentially they played into that as an opportunity to relieve that fear with false hope." – Adam Graham [30:05]

• Authenticity and Realism: He commends the episode's realistic portrayal of 1950s life, noting the authenticity in settings like exercise classes and airports, which add depth to the narrative.

  Notable Quote:
  "This series continues to capture so many elements of life in the 1950s due to realism." – Adam Graham [30:05]

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Listener Feedback

Graham shares heartfelt messages from listeners, reflecting appreciation and personal connections to the podcast. Notably, Caleb from Pennsylvania offers condolences and engages in a deep discussion about the challenges of linking fictional cases to real-life crimes, emphasizing the podcast's impact on understanding true crime complexities.

Notable Audience Comments:

• Ron and Nancy:
  "Thanks Adam. Keep these programs coming. Our daughter is an author so we understand and appreciate the time and effort you put in on research."

• Caleb N.:
  "I really enjoyed the format of this episode where the crime has been solved and it was really just the interrogation and hearing from the suspect."

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Conclusion

Adam Graham wraps up the episode by acknowledging the ongoing support from listeners and Patreon supporters, particularly thanking Gary for his consistent backing since August 2016. He reiterates the podcast’s commitment to delivering authentic and engaging true crime stories, promising more compelling content in future episodes.

Final Thoughts:
"If you're enjoying the podcast, please follow us using your favorite podcast software and be sure to rate and review the podcast wherever you download it from." – Adam Graham [40:47]

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Final Remarks

Dragnet: The Big Couple offers a captivating journey through a meticulously recreated 1950s investigation, highlighting the enduring relevance of fraud prevention and the relentless pursuit of justice. Adam Graham’s expert narration and analysis enrich the listening experience, making it both educational and enthralling for true crime enthusiasts.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• "Their criminal record dates back 17 years. Their masters in the art of swindling." – Officer Friday [04:01]
• "They suggested that I talk it over with the church board, so I did." – Officer Friday [08:58]
• "They promised everything, and they had a lot of takers." – Officer Friday [16:01]
• "We have to get a plane." – Officer Romero [27:33]
• "We have to get the plane. We can't let them escape." – Officer Friday [27:39]
• "The health insurance scam is particularly salient. The fear of polio in those days was huge for parents and essentially they played into that as an opportunity to relieve that fear with false hope." – Adam Graham [30:05]
• "This series continues to capture so many elements of life in the 1950s due to realism." – Adam Graham [30:05]
• "If you're enjoying the podcast, please follow us using your favorite podcast software and be sure to rate and review the podcast wherever you download it from." – Adam Graham [40:47]

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the essence of Dragnet: The Big Couple, providing listeners with a clear understanding of the episode's narrative, investigative process, and its broader implications, all while highlighting key moments through direct quotes.

Transcript

[Narrator]

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[Announcer]

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[Adam Graham]

Welcome to the Great Detectives of Old Time Radio from Boise, Idaho. This is your host, Adam Graham. In a moment, we're going to bring you this week's episode of Dragnet. But first, I do want to encourage you if you're enjoying the podcast, to please follow us using your favorite podcast software. I also want to let you know that today's program is brought to you in part by the financial support of our listeners. You can support the show on a one time basis by mailing a donation to Adam Graham, P.O. box 15913. That's P.O. box 159 13, Boise, ID 83715. And I want to thank Ron and Nancy and Carolyn for sending along donations that way. And you can also become one of our ongoing Patreon supporters for as little as $2 per month by going to patreon.greatdetectives. now from February 22, 1951, here is the Big Couple.

[Narrator]

You can make a difference in someone's life, including your own, with a job in home care. These jobs offer flexible schedules, health care, retirement options and free training. They also provide paid time off and opportunities for overtime. Visit oregonhomecarejobs.com to learn more and apply. That's oregonhomecarejobs.com.

[Announcer]

Ladies and gentlemen, Crime Prevention Week, now being observed nationally, is designed for one purpose. To emphasize that crime is your personal enemy, costs money and lives, weakens the moral and physical strength of your community. Show your respect for the law by cooperating with your police officer 52 weeks a year, join the fight to stamp out crime, the ally of treason.

[Officer Friday]

The story you are about to hear is true. Only the names have Been changed to protect the innocent. You're a detective sergeant. You're assigned a bunco de detail. A husband and wife confidence team has shifted operations to your city. Their criminal record dates back 17 years. Their masters in the art of swindling.

[Officer Romero]

Your job.

[Announcer]

Get them.

[Narrator]

Dragnet. The documented drama of an actual crime. For the next 30 minutes, in cooperation with the Los Angeles Police Department, you will travel step by step, step on the side of the law through an actual case, transcribed from official police files. From beginning to end, from crime to punishment, Dragnet is the story of your police force in action.

[Announcer]

It was Monday, April 20th. It was windy in Los Angeles. We were working the day watch out of bunco detail. My partner's Ben Romero. The boss is Captain McCauley. My name's Friday. We were on the way out from the office and it was 10:35am when we got to the Holy Gospel Tabernacle. The pastor's house.

[Officer Romero]

Look at that palm tree. Yeah. Windstorm sure didn't do it any good. It was really blowing last night.

[Announcer]

Woke me up a couple of times.

[Officer Romero]

Not me. I slept like a baby. What'd you say the name here was? Olson.

[Announcer]

Yeah, you got it right here. Reverend Andrew Olson.

[Officer Romero]

Doesn't seem to be anybody at home. I'll try it again.

[Announcer]

No, we said on the phone he'd either be here or at the church.

[Officer Romero]

Where's that?

[Announcer]

Just around the corner. Faces on South Spring.

[Officer Romero]

Not a very wealthy looking neighborhood.

[Announcer]

It must be the church up there.

[Officer Romero]

Sure could stand a coat of pain.

[Announcer]

Grounds are well kept, aren't they? Nice flower beds.

[Officer Romero]

Look at that. Giant pansies. Tried some in the backyard last year. Too bad.

[Announcer]

What do you mean?

[Officer Romero]

Giant snails. Sliced them right off at the ruts.

[Announcer]

Guess that must be him up at the front, huh? Better close the door, huh?

[Officer Romero]

Oh. Oh, yeah.

[Announcer]

Come on. Excuse me, sir.

[Officer Friday]

Oh, didn't see you.

[Announcer]

You the Reverend Olson?

[Officer Romero]

Yes.

[Officer Friday]

Can I help you?

[Announcer]

My name's Friday, Reverend. I talked to you on the phone.

[Officer Friday]

Oh, yes, Sergeant.

[Announcer]

And this is my partner, Sergeant Romero.

[Officer Friday]

How do you do, Sergeant Merrill.

[Officer Romero]

That's Romero, Raymond.

[Officer Friday]

Oh, excuse me, Romero. Didn't expect you so soon. A little busy here fixing the pulpit. It happened last Sunday.

[Officer Romero]

What's that, Raymond?

[Officer Friday]

I guess I got carried away with my sermon. Quite a commotion. Oh, Leaned forward in the pulpit. This whole section here just splintered and broke right off. Ruined my whole sermon. Well, I can finish this up later. Have a chair there, officers.

[Officer Romero]

No answer. Thank you very much.

[Reverend Olson]

Yeah.

[Officer Friday]

Well, there it is, Sergeant. The names, descriptions. Mr. And Mrs. Tom Herbert. That's the name they used anyway.

[Announcer]

Would you mind briefing us on how it happened, Reverend? When did you first meet this couple?

[Officer Friday]

He came to us a little over a month ago. Didn't have any reason to be suspicious. Mr. Herbert showed me some fine references. I didn't think it was necessary to check them.

[Officer Romero]

What kind of approach did they use? Could you tell her?

[Officer Friday]

The first visit, Mrs. Herbert did most of the talking. She told me she and her husband wanted to write a history of our church. It was supposed to be part of an historical book on all the churches in the county. Naturally, I felt a little flattered about it.

[Announcer]

Did this Mr. And Ms. Herbert make any demands for money? Or to write about your church, I mean.

[Officer Friday]

Oh, no, no. There was no money involved at first. They said all they wanted was our cooperation and doing some of the research work. You know, looking up dates, names, things like that.

[Officer Romero]

I see.

[Officer Friday]

You seemed very sincere. Both of them didn't drink, smoked. They worked very hard during research writing. I don't know why they had to change. Would have been nice having history written about our church.

[Announcer]

Yes, sir. When did they first bring up the idea of money?

[Officer Friday]

Well, Mr. Herbert came to me one day and showed me this letter. It was supposed to be from the people who were going to publish the history of our church. Letters said, well, because of certain business reasons, the whole thing was off. They couldn't publish the book. Mr. Herbert acted very sorry.

[Announcer]

Did he leave that letter with you, Reverend?

[Officer Friday]

No, he took it with him. I felt badly about the whole thing. They're doing all that work and then the book not being published.

[Officer Romero]

Did the Herbert's broach the idea of you and the church putting up the money to print the book?

[Officer Friday]

Well, no, not exactly, but I guess they gave me the idea.

[Officer Romero]

How do you mean?

[Officer Friday]

They suggested that I talk it over with the church board, so I did. We all agreed it'd be a shame to give up the idea of the book after so much work had gone into it.

[Announcer]

Is that when you agreed to finance the book?

[Officer Friday]

Well, the board and I did, yes. It's all my fault, though. I helped to persuade them.

[Announcer]

The money came out of church funds, is that it?

[Officer Friday]

As a matter of fact, it didn't. We only have a small operating fund, so you can see we're a small church. Congregation isn't wealthy.

[Officer Romero]

And where'd the money come from, sir?

[Officer Friday]

Well, for one thing, the Ladies of the Altar Society put on a Sunday afternoon ham dinner. It made some money. And then the Herbert suggested we help sell advertising to pay part of the Cost, so we did that too. It still wasn't enough.

[Announcer]

Well, exactly how much did you turn over to the Herberts?

[Officer Friday]

$804.61. I had to borrow 350 from the bank to make it. It'll all have to be paid back. People who paid for their advertising too, till all that come out of our pocket. It's a terrible thing.

[Officer Romero]

Yes, sir, it is terrible.

[Officer Friday]

I don't know what I'm going to do. Hate to ask the congregation for it. Their offerings have always been so generous. And they're not wealthy, they're just working people.

[Announcer]

When was the last time that you heard from this Mr. And Mrs. Herbert, Reverend?

[Officer Friday]

A week ago, I guess. Yes, it was last Monday. I got anxious and called them at their hotel. It's on South Grand. I can give you the address. Told me when the books would be ready and said it would be on Tuesday. It's the last I heard of him.

[Announcer]

No forwarding address? No other place that you think we might find them?

[Officer Friday]

No. I'm sorry. Just don't have any idea. So hard to believe anyone would do such a thing to us.

[Officer Romero]

Yes, sir? Wonder if we could have the address of their hotel?

[Officer Friday]

Yes, all right. If you'll come with me, I have it over at the house.

[Announcer]

Did Mr. And Ms. Herbert have a car, do you know, Reverend?

[Officer Friday]

I don't think so. If they did, I never saw it. I know what I'm gonna tell the congregation. $800. That's a lot of money to our people.

[Officer Romero]

Yes.

[Officer Friday]

Tell me, Sergeant, I don't mean to be uncharitable, but Mr. And Mrs. Herbert, do they have a criminal record? Have they done this sort of thing before?

[Announcer]

Well, their descriptions seem to fit a couple that we've been looking for. They've been working the churches in this area on and off for a couple of years now.

[Officer Friday]

Can't understand why they do such a thing. It's almost like robbing a poor box.

[Announcer]

Yes, sir. They've done that, too. 11:15am we went back to the City hall and pulled a package on the suspects, Mr. And Mrs. Tom Herbert. They were a veteran man and wife confidence team who'd worked the Los Angeles area and other large cities around the country. Their specialty seemed to be swindling churches and clergymen. Over a period of 17 years, they piled up a long record involving frauds and various bunco games. But they'd only been brought to trial once the case had been dismissed for lack of sufficient evidence. 11:35am we took mug shots of Mr. And Mrs. Herbert out to the Rev. Olson, and he identified them. We checked the hotel on south grand where they'd been staying. No leads. We got out a local broadcast and an APB on them. Together with the sheriff's office, we sent a special bulletin about the Herberts to the pastors of the different churches in the city and county. From the list of names on the mama sheet, we began checking out all the known friends and relatives of the suspects. One of them was a Clyde Harris, proprietor of a physical culture school out in the Wilshire district. 1pm Tuesday. We drove out to talk to him.

[Officer Romero]

Which way, Jim?

[Announcer]

Right down the street. The blue and white sign there.

[Officer Romero]

Oh, yeah. Venus School of Physical Culture. I can make you an all American girl. Clyde Harris, manager. This looks like the office here.

[Announcer]

No, we're supposed to meet him in the gym. That's next door.

[Officer Romero]

Oh.

[Announcer]

Yeah. Here. No, go ahead.

[Officer Romero]

Oh, yeah.

[Announcer]

Back this way, I guess.

[Officer Romero]

All right, now, once again, please. All together with me. 1, 2, 3, 4, extend. Bend. Pull down. Extend. Bend. Pull down with me, please. 3, 4. Mr. Tolson, pull down. 1, 2, pull down. 1, 2,. 3, 4, 10, 4, down. Hold it a minute. No, I'm sorry, Mrs. Tollefson. You're doing it wrong. Your pelvis is all out of position.

[Announcer]

Excuse me. Are you quiet, Harris?

[Officer Romero]

Yes. Did you want something?

[Announcer]

Police officers, Mr. Harris like talk to you.

[Officer Romero]

Oh, yeah, Officer, could you hold on half a minute?

[Announcer]

Sure, go ahead in.

[Officer Romero]

Francis. Francis, would you take over here for a few minutes? I have to talk to these gentlemen. Ladies, Francis is going to count for you for a while. You go right ahead with the lesson. I'll be back in a few minutes. Back here, officers. Won't take too long, will you? No, sir, just a few minutes. Sorry to interrupt your list. That's all right. I just don't want to have the ladies thinking I neglected. And they pay good money for these exercises. Yeah. Here you are. Have a chair. Thank you. You said something about Tom Herbert on the phone, Sergeant. What's it all about?

[Announcer]

Well, we understand that you're a friend of the Herbert's, Mr. Harris.

[Officer Romero]

Yeah. I knew Tom and Doris a couple of years back. Haven't seen much of them lately. When was the last time you saw him? Let's see. Must be two, three months anyway. Anything wrong?

[Announcer]

Well, do you know where we could locate them?

[Officer Romero]

I don't know for sure. Last time I saw them they were at a hotel downtown in South Grand, I think. Yeah, south grand, right near Pico.

[Announcer]

You have no idea where they moved when they left there?

[Officer Romero]

No, I didn't even know they'd moved. They haven't phoned or contacted you at all in the last month or so? No, not a word. They're not in the jam again, are they?

[Announcer]

We'd like to talk to them, that's all. Would you know of any of their favorite spots around town? Eating, drinking places?

[Officer Romero]

No, I don't think I could say they got around quite a bit. You checked with some of their other friends around town? The Pattons, the Thompsons, Mike Runyon. What was that last one? Mike Runyon. Very good friend of the Herberts, Ben. No, I don't recall the name.

[Announcer]

Well, how could we get in touch with this Runyon, Mr. Harris?

[Officer Romero]

He's got a phone. Come on in the office. We'll call him if you like.

[Announcer]

Yeah. Thank you very much.

[Officer Romero]

I'll get Mike on the line for you, introduce you.

[Announcer]

Would you mind talking to him, Harris? Don't tell him it's for us. Just ask if he knows where the Herberts are. Would you mind?

[Officer Romero]

Yeah, all right. No answer.

[Announcer]

Maybe.

[Officer Romero]

Hello? Mike? Clyde Harris.

[Announcer]

Mike.

[Officer Romero]

Yeah. How are you? Fine. 5. Yeah, a long time. Say, Mike, you any idea where Tom and Doris Herbert are? Mm. They're right. How about that, huh? You don't.

[Announcer]

No.

[Officer Romero]

That's okay. It's not important. Sure thing, Mike. Make it soon, huh? Right. Bye. Yeah. No, he doesn't know where the Herberts are staying. Saw him a week ago out in Hollywood, though. Says they're doing fine. How do you mean? Ran into him outside that big church on Hollywood Boulevard. They told Mike all about it. They really got religion. That so? Yeah. They're even writing a book about the church.

[Announcer]

We called back Mike Runyon, a friend of the suspect. And he gave us the location of the church where he'd seen Mr. And Mrs. Herbert. Ben and I drove out there and talked to the pastor, Reverend John Kenworth. We showed him the Herbert's mug shots, and he identified them. They were going under the name of Williams. And supposedly they were writing a book about the history of the church. To cover publishing expenses and research. More than $1,000 from Perry's contributions. Had been placed in a separate account at a local bank. Reverend Kenworth told us that it was a special joint account and the Herberts had access to it. Ben got on the phone and called the bank.

[Officer Romero]

How's that? Yes. Yes, sir. Huh? Yeah. All right. Thank you.

[Announcer]

What'd they say?

[Officer Romero]

The two of them were in the bank yesterday. They didn't draw out everything.

[Announcer]

How much did they leave?

[Officer Romero]

$3.

[Announcer]

Ben and I checked with the teller at the bank. And showed him mug shots of Mr. And Ms. Herbert. He identified them as the couple who'd withdrawn the church funds. We went to the hotel address. The suspects had given to Reverend Kenworth. They checked out two days before the search went on. Two weeks passed. We ran out of leads. No further reports on the couple. A month went by. Tuesday, May 23rd. We got an APB from San Francisco. And a couple answering the Herbert's description. They were still working the church angle. During the next six weeks, we got reports on them from Washington, Oregon, Nevada and Northern California. In Sacramento, they apparently changed their MO for the first time. They started selling phony health insurance policies. They promised everything, and they had a lot of takers. One of the big selling points was a clause which promised full protection. If anybody in the family should come down with polio. From Sacramento, they headed south to Oakland and then to Fresno. On July 10, the complaint started to come in. And we knew the Herberts had moved into Los Angeles with their health insurance racket. One of the first victims was a Carl Fogarty. He lived out in the West Lake area.

[Officer Romero]

There's a policy they gave me.

[Announcer]

Sorry.

[Officer Romero]

Apex Health Insurance. Not worth the paper it's printed on. When did they sell you this, Mr. Fogarty? You remember. Three weeks ago, I guess. Never would have known it was phony if my boy hadn't come down with polio. How's he getting along?

[Announcer]

Not too good.

[Officer Romero]

Right leg. He's got it bad there. It's not as if we don't have enough grief. We gotta lose out on this bum insurance.

[Announcer]

You mind if I take a look at that policy, sir?

[Officer Romero]

No, go ahead. Here you are.

[Announcer]

Thanks, Joe.

[Officer Romero]

Yeah. Same outfit, Joe. Apex Health Insurance. Same phony address. Yeah.

[Announcer]

Would you remember the man who sold you this, do you think?

[Officer Romero]

I think I would, yeah.

[Announcer]

I wonder if you'd mind looking through these pictures, Mr. Fogarty.

[Officer Romero]

Not at all.

[Announcer]

Just look at them carefully, if you will.

[Officer Romero]

Yeah. This one. That's him. I remember. Who's he? His name's Herbert. When he came in to sell you this policy, was he alone? Yeah, he was. And a real good sales talk.

[Announcer]

How much did you pay for the insurance?

[Officer Romero]

Let me see. $43 and some odd cents. I remember that because I cashed him a war bond. And I took $5 out of the rent money.

[Announcer]

Outside of this policy here, you have no other papers that the man might have given you?

[Officer Romero]

No, nothing. But this business card here. He gave me that. You see here? The same name. Apex Health Insurance. Yeah.

[Announcer]

Well, thank you very much, Mr. Fogarty.

[Officer Romero]

We hope your little boy pulls out of it all right. Yeah, thanks. Here's our card, sir. There's anything we can do, give us a call. Sure. Okay. About time we check the office, huh?

[Announcer]

I think so. Do you have a phone here, Mr. Fogarty?

[Officer Romero]

Oh, yeah, sergeant. Straight back in the hall there.

[Announcer]

Help yourself. Thank you very much. 2572. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Fred.

[Officer Romero]

Joe.

[Announcer]

Friday. Anything for us in the book?

[Officer Romero]

Hmm.

[Announcer]

West 7th. Yeah. Okay. Right. Thanks, Fred.

[Officer Romero]

Anything doing?

[Announcer]

It looks pretty good. Office got a call from a printing shop out on West 7th. The manager's got an order he's not too sure about.

[Officer Romero]

How do you mean?

[Announcer]

It's for a batch of letterhead, stationary business cards.

[Officer Romero]

Yeah?

[Announcer]

For who? Apex Health Insurance.

[Narrator]

You are listening to Dragnet for the step by step solution to tonight's authentic case.

[Announcer]

Wednesday, July 10, 4pm Ben and I drove back downtown to the printing shop on West 7th street and talked with a manager. He told us that the order for stationary and business cards. For the Apex Health Insurance Company had been placed two days before. He said he'd become suspicious after reading a story in one of the newspapers about the polio insurance fraud. He also said that the customer who had ordered the stuff was a woman. She told him that she would call and pick up the order. On Friday, we showed the manager a handful of mug shots. He could give us only a partial identification of Mrs. Herbert's picture. We called the office, told them we were going on stakeout and arranged for a relief. Ben and I spent the rest of Wednesday and all day Thursday and Friday in the rear of the print shop where we could keep an eye on everyone entering the place. Friday, 6pm no sign of the Herberts. Not a trace. Saturday, the same. No sign of either one of them. Monday, more waiting. The suspect stayed away. Tuesday, 3:30pm I went out the rear door, went down the street and got some cigarettes. And then I headed back for the print shop.

[Officer Romero]

Man, keep your coat on. Joe, just call the office for a relief. Why?

[Announcer]

What's doing at.

[Officer Romero]

Clyde Harris, Friend of the Herberts. Guy who runs the Physical Culture School.

[Announcer]

Yeah, what about him?

[Officer Romero]

He called the office, wanted to talk to us. I phoned him out there at the gym?

[Announcer]

Yeah.

[Officer Romero]

He told me he was out drinking last night and he met Mrs. Herbert at a bar. She was alone.

[Announcer]

Did he tell you where to find her?

[Officer Romero]

The Greenwood Apartments, 603.

[Announcer]

When the relief men arrived, Ben and I left and drove across town to the Greenwood Apartments. On Taylor street. Was a three Story frame building set back from the sidewalk behind a sloping lawn lined with a box hedge. We checked the names on the mailboxes. The name T.J. bronson was listed for apartment 603. We rang but there was no answer.

[Officer Romero]

Better try the manager. Yeah, it's a nice place. Insurance racket must be paying off for.

[Announcer]

Here we go.

[Officer Romero]

Yeah, can I help you?

[Announcer]

Yes, are you the manager here?

[Officer Romero]

That's right. Thatcher's my name. Can I help you? Police officers, Mr. Thatcher. We're trying to locate the people in 603. Oh, that crazy woman tried to blow up the place last night. Why?

[Announcer]

What do you mean?

[Officer Romero]

Mrs. Bronson. She came in drunk about 2am no sense at all. About 3am the folks in 601 called me and they said they smelled gas. I went up there and found her in the kitchenette. Not like a light gas stove turned on. Going full blast crazy.

[Announcer]

Where's her husband?

[Officer Romero]

Couldn't say. Chasing around again, I think. Hadn't been home in a week. Lucky I got to that gas before somebody lit a match. You said happened about 3 this morning? That's right. Crazy woman. She'll be all right, though.

[Announcer]

Where is she now? Do you know?

[Officer Romero]

Yeah. County Hospital.

[Announcer]

4:25Pm Ben and I got in touch with the office and arranged for a stakeout at the Herbert's apartment. We called homicide and checked on the attempts suicide report. They informed us that the woman had been taken to the psycho ward. County Hospital. We went over to the hospital, checked at the main desk and identified ourselves. The nurse on duty had us shown to the ward where the suspect, Doris Herbert was confined. She was a halfway attractive woman in her late 40s, short, bleach blonde hair, dark eyes with deep circles under them. She turned and looked up as we stopped beside her bed.

[Officer Romero]

Excuse me. You Doris Herbert? Is your name Doris Herbert?

[Reverend Olson]

What do you want?

[Announcer]

Police officers. We'd like to talk to you for a minute.

[Reverend Olson]

I knew you'd be around.

[Officer Romero]

I don't care, ma'am.

[Reverend Olson]

I'm sick of it. I'm sick of the whole rotten thing. I knew you'd come.

[Announcer]

I just have a few questions, ma'am. It won't take long.

[Reverend Olson]

Go ahead. I don't care. Did you find him yet?

[Announcer]

You mean your husband?

[Reverend Olson]

He's not my husband. Not anymore. Him and that cheap girl behind my back, sneaking around. 20 years we've been happy and he throws me away.

[Officer Romero]

Where's your husband now, Ms. Hervey?

[Reverend Olson]

With her. We've been with her a week. He doesn't even care. I'm here 20 years ago. He cared. I found him and taught him something. I taught him everything he knows.

[Announcer]

This girl that your husband's with, where does she stay? Do you know?

[Reverend Olson]

Yeah. An apartment. It's on Franklin. Right on the corner. Franklin and Laurel. You were close, weren't you? You knew it was us.

[Officer Romero]

What's this girl's name?

[Reverend Olson]

Marie Daley. I saw her with him. Tell me something. Yeah, you know it was us. Tom and me. The insurance.

[Announcer]

Yeah, we knew it was you.

[Reverend Olson]

I didn't like it. It wasn't a clean game. Tom's idea. He made money, but I didn't like it. It wasn't clean.

[Announcer]

All right, Ms. Herbert, we'll talk to you later.

[Reverend Olson]

No, not me. I'm gonna die. I'm gonna die and forget all about it. Just be sure and get him, won't you? Tom? I tell him everything he knows. Get him.

[Officer Romero]

You sure about the address?

[Reverend Olson]

Yeah, I'm sure. Tell me something. Why'd he have to do it to me? Throwing me away, lying, taking that cheap girl. Why'd he do it to me?

[Announcer]

Well, you ought to have an idea. You taught him everything he knows. Before we left the hospital we made arrangements to have Doris Herbert transferred to the prison ward. 5pm we drove out to the apartment house at Franklin and Laurel and checked with the landlady. She told us that Tom Herbert's girlfriend, Marie Daleyza had checked out of her apartment the day before. She said the Daily Girl had a middle aged man with her. We showed the landlady Herbert's mug shot and she identified him as that man. She had no forwarding address on her, but she did remember the name of the express truck that called to pick up the Daily Girls baggage. We checked with the express company and found that the trunks had been taken to the Lockheed air terminal. We started calling the airlines. 6:30pm we finally got a report that a man answering Tom Herbert's description had book passage for two on a flight to Mexico City. The plane was scheduled to leave at 8:35 that night. Ben and I drove out to the airport and went on stakeout. 8:15pm we waited. 8:20. No sign of them. United Airlines mainliner flight 649 from Denver and intermediate cities.

[Officer Romero]

Getting a little late.

[Announcer]

Yeah, it's 8 24. They're cutting it close.

[Officer Romero]

Going in the bar, Joe. Take a look.

[Announcer]

Yeah, that's them. Let's go.

[Officer Romero]

Not hard to spot. What's the matter with the girl?

[Announcer]

Looks pretty drunk.

[Officer Romero]

All right.

[Officer Friday]

Come on, Reverend and water Hunter.

[Officer Romero]

Eat what you want.

[Adam Graham]

No no.

[Reverend Olson]

Yeah.

[Officer Romero]

Haven't got much time. We don't want to miss that plane.

[Reverend Olson]

We won't miss it.

[Announcer]

You Tom Herbert?

[Officer Romero]

Yes, what is it?

[Announcer]

Police officers like talking you downtown.

[Officer Romero]

Just a minute. This must be some kind of mistake. No mistake, Herbert. We talked to your wife. Let's go.

[Reverend Olson]

Where's the time?

[Officer Romero]

What they want nothing. It's a mistake. Now, look, officers, I don't know what this is all about, but we have to get a plane. The 835. I can't go downtown with you. Can we talk it over here? I'm sure we can straighten this out.

[Announcer]

Your wife copped out, Herbert. Now, let's make it easy, huh?

[Officer Romero]

Come on, lady.

[Reverend Olson]

What's he talking about, Tom or wife? What does he mean?

[Officer Romero]

I told you it's a mistake. Now be reasonable, huh? Officer, all we want to do is take a trip. We been planning on this. New clothes, new luggage. Here's your hat. Our car's outside. It's a mistake. You can't do this. We planned on it. We've been waiting a long time for this.

[Announcer]

Yes, sir. So have we. Come on, let's go.

[Officer Friday]

The story you have just heard was true. Only the names were changed to protect the innocent.

[Narrator]

On October 28, trial was held in Superior Court the Department 88 City and County of Los Angeles, State of California. In a moment, the results of that trial. Mr. And Mrs. Tom Herbert were tried and convicted on several counts of grand theft. They are now confined in the state penitentiary for the term prescribed by law. Grand theft is punishable by confinement for not less than 1 nor more than 10 years. You have just heard Dragnet a series of authentic cases from official files. Technical advice comes from the office of Chief of Police W.H. parker, Los Angeles Police Department.

[Officer Romero]

David Harding counterspy solves an exciting case next on NBC.

[Narrator]

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[Announcer]

Step into the world of power, loyalty and luck.

[Officer Friday]

I'm gonna make him an offer he can't refus.

[Announcer]

Family, Canolis and spins mean everything.

[Officer Friday]

Now you want to get mixed up.

[Officer Romero]

In the family business. Introducing the [e-mail] test your luck in.

[Announcer]

The shadowy world of the Godfather slots.

[Officer Romero]

Someday I will call upon you to do a service for me.

[Announcer]

Play the Godfather [e-mail] Welcome to the family. No purchase necessary. VGW group void. We're prohibited by law. 21 plus terms and conditions apply.

[Adam Graham]

Welcome back. A solid bunko episode with two rackets and I think you'll find both rackets around in one form or another today. The health insurance scam is particularly salient. The fear of polio in those days was huge for parents and essentially they played into that as an opportunity to relieve that fear with false hope. And you'll see the exact same thing in so many scams today. Also, this series continues to capture so many elements of life in the 1950s due to realism, such as the sound of an exercise class, which is definitely a little less sensitive than today. I can't imagine calling someone out by name and telling them they're doing something wrong in front of the full class. It'd be more like coming over subtly and saying this is what you want to do. But not on that day. And then of course you had the airport. Compare that to the somewhat half hearted attempt at creating the sound of an Airport from Mr. Chameleon we heard a few months back. Well now we turn to listener comments and feedback and we start with this letter from Ron and Nancy and they write thanks Adam. Keep these programs coming. Our daughter is an author so we understand and appreciate the time and effort you put in on research. Well thank you so much. And then we have a comment from YouTube regarding the big cast and listener writes there. I love the episodes with small cast like this one. Very intense. I definitely agree on that. And then I also have an email on the same episode. Caleb writes, My deepest condolences to you and your family, especially your wife, on the passing of your father in law. I will say a prayer for all of you. Well thank you so much. I really do appreciate that Caleb. And again all the kind words we've received. He goes on to write, I was listening to the Dragnet episode with the serial killer and it was superb. I kept waiting for Friday Romero to conclude that the suspect was actually just making a false confession of some sort and was floored when it turned out he was just so nonchalant about murdering so many people. I really enjoyed the format of this episode where the crime has been solved and it was really just the interrogation and hearing from the suspect. Given the fact that this suspect was convicted and executed for committing multiple murders, I wasn't sure if this would be the type of case where it would be easier or feasible to link the episode to the real life crime. I know there Wasn't Court tv, the Internet, or True Crime podcast when these episodes aired. But I'm guessing that for the really serious crimes, it would be possible to figure out the actual case upon which this was based. By comparison, when the Dragnet episode is about a series of burglaries or something similar, I'm assuming such a task would be impossible. Again, my condolences on your loss, and thank you for all the fantastic work that you do. From Caleb N. Pennsylvania. Well, thanks so much once again, Caleb. And I did look into this. I couldn't find anything. And as I was thinking about it, I think I know why. And watching the TV episode makes it clear. At the end, they said he was convicted of murder in the first degree. They did not say how many counts he was convicted of. And I suspect that based on what we heard and saw in the episode, that Ross was only convicted of one count. And in many ways, it comes down to something that was discussed a few months back regarding that concept of corpus delicti, which is often misused as, you know, kind of a throwaway joke line, almost with the assumption that the lack of a body somehow prevents a murder charge. When corpus delicti isn't about the body of the victim, it's about the body of the crime. In essence, when we get to the point of asking, is there corpus delicti? We're asking, is there evidence that a crime actually happened? With that last killing, even before Friday and Romero confronted him, that element was pretty well established. There was evidence that a crime had happened because you had the paperwork on the sale of the car, which was in Ross's handwriting, with him having forged the dead man's signature. That right there proved Ross guilty of theft and forgery and was indicative of other things. But then, of course, you then had the letter to the wife, which is very hard to explain away because the letter indicated that Ross knew a bit about her husband's affairs, enough to try to attempt to write to her. And it also indicated that Ross knew that her husband would be unable to write to her. I mean, honestly, on what they had collected, he could have been taken to trial and probably would have been convicted. 90% chance. But they did want the location of the body, which confirmed Ross's story of how he killed him. But what about the other cases? Is there corpus delicti, a body of a crime? No, not really. Now, in his confession, he named one other victim. In real life, he might have named more. But does the fact that some men went missing and Ross admitted to killing them in that you've got evidence that there's a crime. No, not really. Men disappear from, for whatever reason, all the time. And there are many hazards, both man made and otherwise, along the highways of California, as well as some men who just decide they want to disappear. And that someone confesses to having killed someone doesn't itself prove a crime because there are many people who will say, I killed someone. And in many cases they didn't. In fact, in some cases of missing persons, people have kept stepped forward to say, I killed this person. And then the person turns up. Now, certainly Ross could have provided details on at least some of the cases where the police could find evidence of his crime, but why would he? And in some cases he might have totally forgotten details, given how many he done and how commonplace and calmly he viewed the crime, except for those that stood out in his memory. And I think that I believe that he did kill a lot of people from a point of view of having watched the performances. And certainly cases at this point that came into Dragnet were ones where police officers shared a case that they thought would be worth Dragnet covering. And certainly you can imagine that the police officer who submitted this believed that this person really did commit these murders. And it certainly matches with a lot of the very cold, nonchalant talk we've heard from some serial killers and goes against the sort of media stereotype of the somewhat maniacal character who is a serial killer. But actual evidence for the rest of the crimes just didn't exist. And the prosecutor, truth be told, didn't need it. You can only execute a man once, and we don't know when this was. And there may even have been a mandatory death penalty. And you will, actually, I was looking at the pages for US serial killers, the Wikipedia entry on it, and there are multiple serial killers who have a number of killings that they committed and are known. But there are also a lot that are unconfirmed. So this isn't uncommon. And this was, of course, in the age before there came to be this big focus on a true crime, although certainly there was interest in sensational cases. And an enterprising reporter might have gotten an article in the fourth or fifth page of the newspaper about it based on the confession of multiple killings, if that was something that the prosecutor discussed or highlighted at all. But in terms of what went to trial and what he was charged with, it was a case of one guy killing another guy on the highway over a small amount of money. This is a case where I could imagine it being covered and there might be some article somebody finds from that era, which really could probably be any time between the 1920s and the 1950s. But if it wasn't properly researched, it definitely seems like something that could also have been overlooked, particularly depending on what else might have been going on in the news. But thanks so much for the question. Now it's time to thank our Patreon supporter of the day, and I want to go ahead and thank Gary. Gary's been one of our patreon supporters since August 2016, currently supporting the podcast at the shamus level of $4 or more per month. Thanks so much for your support, Gary. And that will actually do it for today. If you're enjoying the podcast, please follow us using your favorite podcast software and be sure to rate and review the podcast wherever you download it from. We'll be back next Saturday with another episode of Dragnet, but join us back here on Monday for the Adventures of the Falcon, where.

[Officer Romero]

Hello, Brooks. My name is Mike Waring. I wonder if you could spare me a few minutes. Oh, sorry, Governor. I'm playing darts. Well, this won't take much time. Hey, bartender, do we have a couple of pints here? Thank you. You want to sit at this table here? All right, now you've got your blooming nerve. Here, take a look at my credentials. You ain't a blooming copper. No, not exactly, but Colonel Logan suggested I talk to you. I ain't ain't nothing if somebody's pinched something. Well, it wasn't me. I'm sure it wasn't. I was just wondering if you ever saw anyone in the colonel's office after hours. Oh, like who, for example? Like any of the men or Ms. Draper, the colonel's secretary. You mean his spies at work? What makes you ask that? I go to the cinema. I see now those fellows work. If I thought there was some anky panky going on. There is. What do you know? The question is, what do you know?

[Adam Graham]

I hope you'll be with us then. In the meantime, send your comments to box Thirteenreatetectives.net follow us on Twitter at radiodetectives and check us out on Instagram. Instagram.com Great detectives from Boise, Idaho, this is your host, Adam Graham, signing off.

[Ryan Seacrest]

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