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Emma DeMuth
Diversion Audio welcome to a special bonus episode of the Greatest True Crime Stories Ever told. I'm Emma DeMuth from Diversion Audio, where I work behind the scenes on the show. Diversion Audio was born from the book publishing company Diversion books back in 2020. Our mission is to tell stories that spark dialogue rooted in compelling stories. In fact, stories from the Diversion Library served as key sources for many of our stories in season one. Today we have a special guest who is no stranger to the world of gripping narratives and to many of the stories from the season. Joining us is Keith Wallman, the editor in chief of Diversion Books. Keith is an expert in curating stories that captivate. In this episode, we'll unravel the mystery behind the enduring fascination with true crime books and podcasts. Why do people find solace in the genre? What is it about these narratives that keep us on the edge of our seats? And what does that say about society? About us? Stay tuned as we embark on a conversation with Keith Walman about the why behind the true crime genre. This is the greatest true crime stories ever told. Thank you, Keith for joining us today. I'm really interested to hear about your perspective in true crime, specifically from the book angle. And you know, this episode also marks the end of season one of our new show, the Greatest True Crime Stories Ever Told. Speaking of, I'd like to start by asking you what your favorite story was from the season.
Keith Wallman
It's a pleasure to be here, Emma.
Mary Kay McBrayer
Thanks for having me.
Keith Wallman
I've got to go with the episode.
Mary Kay McBrayer
That was titled Knife Through Hot Butter.
Keith Wallman
It's based on a diversion title, a.
Mary Kay McBrayer
Diversion books title called Dancing With Death.
Keith Wallman
And you've got this multi layered Jekyll.
Mary Kay McBrayer
And Hyde character at the center, Marjorie Orban. She's a former stripper and Vegas showgirl turned into a suburban housewife.
Keith Wallman
And you've got these different settings, those.
Mary Kay McBrayer
Different personalities, the showgirl versus the suburban.
Keith Wallman
Housewife milieu, and the murder of her seventh husband.
Mary Kay McBrayer
And I think there's just so much tension between the different sides of her personality and the different environments that she inhabits. So to me, that's the best one of the season. It's great.
Emma DeMuth
Yeah. I think characters that have very multidimensional personalities do make the best stories. It kind of reminds me of my personal favorite three episodes of the season was the first female American Serial Killer, which was actually our host, Mary Kay McBrayer. She wrote a book all about Jane Toppan. And it was really fascinating because it starts off with her childhood and you kind of get a good understanding of not necessarily the why behind her crimes, but it makes a little bit more sense knowing that backstory. A lot of true crime is about stories with men killing women, unfortunately. And with our show, our focus was to tell stories in which women were not just the victim. I'm curious, in your experience, has there been any type of characters that you've seen most often in the stories that have been submitted to you? And why do you think that is?
Mary Kay McBrayer
Sure thing. Back to that Jekyll and Hyde example.
Keith Wallman
To have a woman as the Jekyll.
Mary Kay McBrayer
And Hyde is really unique because most of the time it's the mild mannered.
Keith Wallman
Man, the doting husband, the businessman who's.
Mary Kay McBrayer
Got the psychopathic impulses at night. So this flips that script. But, you know, there's almost always the murdered or assaulted woman.
Keith Wallman
And it's a good thing to have.
Mary Kay McBrayer
A series that that changes the perspective here and gives us a look at humans in general who have these evil impulses. In these true crime books, you've often.
Keith Wallman
Got the grieving family members, but there's usually one or two who are determined.
Mary Kay McBrayer
Determined to get to the Bottom of the case.
Keith Wallman
And those are the ones you latch.
Mary Kay McBrayer
Onto as the reader or the listener or the viewer. Sometimes there's a journalist, a detective, an FBI agent trying to piece it together. They've got their flaw, so they're really human and you can empathize with them and they're trying to piece together the.
Keith Wallman
Clues and you can do it along with them. And I think that's one of the.
Mary Kay McBrayer
Thrills of true crime stories, is trying to get to the bottom of it and having an ally within the story itself.
Emma DeMuth
You kind of just answer this. But I'm curious, what do you look for in true crime writers and in true crime stories?
Keith Wallman
One of the things I look for.
Mary Kay McBrayer
Is an author's understanding that a reader engaging in a book is looking for escape. It's an escape. And to double down on that, sure, you want action, you want the crime.
Keith Wallman
You want some heroes to follow, but you also want milieu.
Mary Kay McBrayer
You want to go someplace another time, another geographic region, an interesting culture or a workplace.
Keith Wallman
So the story of a crime set.
Mary Kay McBrayer
In Prohibition era Kentucky, for example, takes.
Keith Wallman
You to the world of bootleggers and moonshine and in a different place. So it's a form of escape.
Mary Kay McBrayer
And if the author can really paint that picture, well, they've done a great job. So the setting of a true crime story is very important.
Keith Wallman
Knife Through Hot Butter is a great example.
Mary Kay McBrayer
Take me to Las Vegas in the early 2000s, among the showgirls.
Keith Wallman
I've never been there before, but I need an escape.
Mary Kay McBrayer
It's a diversion, right? Diversion books, diversion audio.
Emma DeMuth
I see what you did there.
Keith Wallman
And then there's also, if you're going to go with a recognizable setting, if it's going to be in a suburb.
Mary Kay McBrayer
That'S familiar to what you're used to.
Keith Wallman
The average everyday American town, then there's a way that the author has to lean into the evil of the perpetrator. So there are different elements depending on what ingredients you have. You add a bit more of that, a bit more of that. So the author is really a chef, taking the facts of the story, putting.
Mary Kay McBrayer
It all together so that it's delicious.
Keith Wallman
Sometimes it's spicy, sometimes you're a little nauseous, but it gets the emotions going.
Mary Kay McBrayer
And it's a challenging craft because we're dealing with crime, murder often. So how to make that entertaining, or.
Keith Wallman
At least to put us through a.
Mary Kay McBrayer
Realm of emotions as a reader? It's a hard challenge, and the best authors do it well with different ingredients in different times.
Emma DeMuth
A recent study by YouGov I'll link these studies in the show. Notes has shown more than 50% of Americans enjoy true crime content. 35% of Americans consume true crime content, whether that be podcasts, movies, TV shows, or books, at least once a week. In addition, 62% of American adults report being fans of media specifically about serial killers. This same survey found that 76% Americans consider themselves fans of true crime. That's a lot of people that love true crime. Keith, in your opinion, why do you think people like true crime content so much?
Keith Wallman
I haven't quite done the research that you have. I'm impressed. But absent of those statistics, I'd say.
Mary Kay McBrayer
There'S that challenge of trying to figure.
Keith Wallman
Out who did it and to do that before the book or the podcast.
Mary Kay McBrayer
Explains or reveals who did it. So there's the puzzle aspect to the whole thing.
Keith Wallman
And just like any storytelling genre, I think there's also that sympathy, empathy element. You can put yourself, if you can put yourself in the shoes of the.
Mary Kay McBrayer
People who are in this story, that's a powerful, powerful thing. And we want to do that. We want to escape our everyday lives.
Keith Wallman
And even if it's in a milieu of evil, of something awful happening, it's.
Mary Kay McBrayer
A way to have a change in our ordinary existence. There's the fear factor element. You can't ignore that.
Keith Wallman
It's a jolt of energy. And the books that really give you those cliffhangers at the end of chapters.
Mary Kay McBrayer
And those little boosts of fear are really great.
Keith Wallman
So I think there's a lot of reasons, and I think unless you're listening to or reading or watching true crime, to study law enforcement techniques, that you're.
Mary Kay McBrayer
Really in it for entertainment, but also to trigger that sense of empathy in your being. And those are different things, but they can work well together.
Emma DeMuth
Another thing that one of our other producers, Mark, told me recently was that men overwhelmingly love this. I forget what the show is called, but there's this show about airplane tragedies and how to survive different tragedies that can happen on airplanes. And women overwhelmingly love true crime podcasts. And I think a lot of the reason why men and women are both attracted to both kinds of content is because they want to understand how to survive if they're ever in these kind of circumstances. So I do think in a way there is an educational component. You want to understand how serial killers think, what kind of tactics they use to lure people. It's an education on how to not be a victim in the future. And I think that's fascinating.
Keith Wallman
And who would want to learn that.
Mary Kay McBrayer
In a dry, boring way. Nobody.
Emma DeMuth
Exactly. Yeah.
Keith Wallman
So to have the entertainment, the storytelling aspect is really, really important.
Mary Kay McBrayer
I'm with you. It's strange. I wonder why men are so interested in the ancient Roman Empire, too. Do they want to learn how to be gladiators or something?
Keith Wallman
You've heard about that.
Emma DeMuth
True crime is my Roman Empire. Are you on TikTok, Keith? You know that. You know that?
Mary Kay McBrayer
Yes, yes, exactly. Yep.
Emma DeMuth
I love it. You know, something else as a producer that I think about a lot, and we've touched upon this a little bit, is at the end of the day, we want to tell an entertaining story. But these are true victims, true people. Whether they're. They're gone now or if they have family members that are still suffering to this day because of these losses, these are real people. And how can we tell these stories in a way that is respectful and tasteful? You know, I. I personally never really thought about it until a few years ago. My very best friend in the whole world, her boyfriend, was actually really tragically murdered. And witnessing the aftermath of that and how people around her treated her, strangers treated her, you know, she. And one day she got over 10,000 follower requests on Instagram. And it's fascinating to me how much people are drawn to tragedy in a way, like people want to feel close to tragedy. And it's been a struggle to try to understand that while also, you know, working in entertainment and telling these stories. And I don't know if I have an answer of how we can tell a true crime story in the most tasteful way, and if that is even possible. I'm curious on your thoughts. I know it's a hard question.
Mary Kay McBrayer
I think one of the important things is to remember that these are stories of heightened human emotion, and we're attracted to that. But we're not publishing horror and we're not doing podcasts that are in the horror genre. This isn't about leaning into gruesomeness and pure evil, although you can explore evil in psychological ways.
Keith Wallman
I don't think you want to have.
Mary Kay McBrayer
An author convey a sense that they're taking some sort of pleasure in writing about this. It's different than that. There's a distinct difference between a challenging and intriguing read versus pure Shock. And I'm not interested in publishing or, frankly, frankly reading Pure Shock. I want to make those human connections as a reader. So if it's in the midst of tragedy, there has to be some sensitivity there, I think. And that's really important in this genre, for sure.
Emma DeMuth
This is a special episode of the greatest true crime stories ever told. We'll be right back after the break.
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Emma DeMuth
So what is the most fascinating true crime story you've ever published?
Mary Kay McBrayer
It's a great question.
Keith Wallman
There are so many.
Mary Kay McBrayer
I've done lots of books in this genre. I'm going to point to the first title that I published with Diversion called the Bourbon the Life and Crimes of.
Keith Wallman
George Remus, who's we call Prohibition's Evil Genius. So you're in Cincinnati And Kentucky in.
Mary Kay McBrayer
The 1920s, it's prohibition, and he's got.
Keith Wallman
One of the largest illegal booze operations going in the whole country, this guy named Remus. And he goes to prison. And while he's in prison, a federal agent seduces his wife and ends up having a relationship with his wife. He finds out about it, he gets.
Mary Kay McBrayer
Out of prison somehow, and he. He murders him.
Keith Wallman
And then you've got this fantastic trial, and he's pumping money into bribing the jurors and everything like that. But it's really that milieu getting to go to basically the bootleg capital of america in the 1920s, like jazz age.
Mary Kay McBrayer
America, where they're pumping out moonshine. That's really fantastic. So that speaks to the element of milieu again.
Keith Wallman
And there's another one that I'd point.
Mary Kay McBrayer
To that I did this book years ago.
Keith Wallman
It was called Terror in the City of Champions, and it was about the city of Detroit in the Great Depression era. And what's really fascinating are all the.
Mary Kay McBrayer
Things that are happening around this one central murder.
Keith Wallman
So Detroit is suffering.
Mary Kay McBrayer
People are looking for jobs.
Keith Wallman
They're down on their luck. But the sports teams in Detroit are.
Mary Kay McBrayer
Winning championships left and right.
Keith Wallman
So there's this inspirational aspect to the time and place. At the same time, you had all.
Mary Kay McBrayer
Of these people moving from the south.
Keith Wallman
Up north for jobs, and some of.
Mary Kay McBrayer
Them brought elements of the KKK to the north. So there was this offshoot group in Detroit called the Black Legion.
Keith Wallman
And at the center of this story.
Mary Kay McBrayer
In the terror of the City of Champions, there's a murder of a black man and one of the Black Legion members who's.
Keith Wallman
I guess then you would have called him simple, but he's not one of the higher ups, but he's the star witness, and it's just an amazing story. And again, for me, the historical crime.
Mary Kay McBrayer
Is really fascinating because it's truly an escape.
Keith Wallman
You're distant time, distant place, and yet.
Mary Kay McBrayer
All of those human elements come through.
Keith Wallman
So those are my favorite kinds of true crime. But the ones that you have on.
Mary Kay McBrayer
The podcast are all fantastic, too.
Emma DeMuth
This makes me think of another question. When it comes to historical crime, how much do you think the crime is influenced from the environment versus the human being? It's interesting. Like, even in the first season, we. We have characters from the 2000s all the way to the 1800s. It seems to me people haven't changed that much. But for instance, the Prohibition story, if this man lived in the early 2000s, do you think he still would have murdered someone or do you think it's very circumstantial to Prohibition specifically?
Mary Kay McBrayer
It's a good question, and I think it is circumstantial.
Keith Wallman
George Remus was a lawyer and he.
Mary Kay McBrayer
Got his start in bootlegging by representing.
Keith Wallman
These low level rum runners and moonshiners. And he realized that he could make.
Mary Kay McBrayer
A lot of money if he went into it whole hog and do it himself.
Keith Wallman
So that's how he got involved. And then he accumulated so much wealth and so much power that he thought.
Mary Kay McBrayer
He was a king.
Keith Wallman
And when this federal agent took his wife, he felt like he could get.
Mary Kay McBrayer
Retribution and he went for it. But it's clearly the environment and the setting that influenced the people. But I don't know. I don't think it's that way all the time. Sometimes, you know, there are people with these inclinations towards evil and violence in every setting, and to combine the two is the task of the author or the podcast producer or the filmmaker.
Emma DeMuth
I agree. Yeah, I think it's a combination of circumstance, environment, but also who you are as a human being. All right, Keith, well, thank you so much for joining us today. This was a lot of fun discussing true crime as a whole and media, so I really appreciate your time.
Mary Kay McBrayer
Thanks for having me, Emma. I appreciate it too.
Emma DeMuth
Thank you for tuning in to this special episode of the Greatest True Crime Stories Ever Told. To learn more about diversion, check out diversionaudio.com or diversionbooks.com.
Mary Kay McBrayer
It.
Emma DeMuth
Diversion audio.
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The Greatest True Crime Stories Ever Told Bonus Episode: True Crime as an Entertainment Genre with Keith Wallman Release Date: March 19, 2024 Host: Mary Kay McBrayer Guest: Keith Wallman, Editor-in-Chief of Diversion Books
In this special bonus episode of The Greatest True Crime Stories Ever Told, host Mary Kay McBrayer is joined by Keith Wallman, the Editor-in-Chief of Diversion Books. The episode delves into the enduring fascination with true crime as an entertainment genre, exploring why audiences are captivated by these narratives and what it reveals about society.
Mary Kay McBrayer initiates the conversation by inquiring about Keith Wallman's favorite story from the season, to which he responds:
“I've got to go with the episode titled Knife Through Hot Butter.” (03:45)
This story, based on the Diversion Books title Dancing With Death, centers around Marjorie Orban, a multifaceted character transitioning from a Vegas showgirl to a suburban housewife, ultimately leading to the murder of her seventh husband. Both Wallman and McBrayer praise the episode for its intricate portrayal of Marjorie's dual personalities and the tension that arises from her complex environments.
Emma DeMuth, a producer from Diversion Audio, highlights a recurring theme in the podcast:
“A lot of true crime is about stories with men killing women, unfortunately. And with our show, our focus was to tell stories in which women were not just the victim.” (05:18)
Keith Wallman and Mary Kay McBrayer discuss the rarity and significance of female protagonists in true crime narratives. They emphasize how this perspective shifts the traditional dynamic, allowing for a deeper exploration of human complexities rather than conforming to the typical victim-offender dichotomy.
The conversation shifts to what makes true crime stories compelling. Keith Wallman compares authors to chefs, crafting narratives with various "ingredients" such as setting, character development, and suspense:
“Sometimes it's spicy, sometimes you're a little nauseous, but it gets the emotions going.” (08:27)
Mary Kay McBrayer adds that effective true crime storytelling involves creating an escape for the audience, immersing them in different times, places, and cultures. She cites Knife Through Hot Butter as an example that transports listeners to Las Vegas in the early 2000s, enhancing the story's allure through its vivid setting.
Emma DeMuth shares intriguing statistics from a recent YouGov study:
“More than 50% of Americans enjoy true crime content. 35% of Americans consume true crime content at least once a week.” (09:05)
These numbers underscore the widespread popularity of the genre. Keith Wallman attributes this fascination to the puzzle-like nature of true crime, where audiences engage in solving the mystery alongside the protagonist:
“There's the puzzle aspect to the whole thing.” (09:43)
Mary Kay McBrayer adds that true crime also taps into empathy and fear, allowing listeners to connect emotionally while experiencing a controlled adrenaline rush:
“And those little boosts of fear are really great.” (10:36)
The discussion takes a thoughtful turn as Emma raises concerns about respecting victims and their families:
“How can we tell these stories in a way that is respectful and tasteful?” (12:22)
Keith Wallman and Mary Kay McBrayer emphasize the importance of sensitivity, ensuring that storytelling does not exploit tragedy for shock value. They advocate for humanizing victims and avoiding gratuitous details, striving to maintain a balance between engaging narratives and respectful representation.
Exploring historical true crime, the conversation examines the influence of environment versus inherent human traits. Mary Kay McBrayer poses a thought-provoking question:
“If George Remus lived in the early 2000s, do you think he still would have murdered someone?” (20:28)
Keith Wallman explains that while environmental factors like Prohibition significantly influenced Remus's actions, inherent personal traits also play a crucial role. This interplay between circumstance and individual disposition shapes the motivations behind criminal behavior, adding depth to historical narratives.
As the episode wraps up, Emma DeMuth and Mary Kay McBrayer express their appreciation for Keith Wallman's insights. The discussion reinforces the idea that true crime is a multifaceted genre that captivates audiences through its intricate storytelling, emotional resonance, and the timeless allure of unraveling mysteries.
“This was a lot of fun discussing true crime as a whole and media, so I really appreciate your time.” (21:29)
Mary Kay McBrayer closes the episode by inviting listeners to explore more content through Diversion Audio and Diversion Books, promising continued exploration of enthralling true crime stories.
Notable Quotes:
This comprehensive summary captures the essence of the bonus episode, presenting the key discussions and insights shared by Mary Kay McBrayer and Keith Wallman. It provides a clear understanding of the episode's content, making it accessible and engaging for those who haven't listened.