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- [00:00]
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- [00:56]
Maria Tremarke
To the Criminalia Podcast. I'm Maria Tremarke.
- [00:58]
Holly Fry
And I'm Holly Fry. Together we invite you into the dark and winding corridors of historical true crime.
- [01:05]
Maria Tremarke
Each season we explore a new theme. From poisoners to art thieves, we uncover.
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Holly Fry
The secrets of history's most interesting figures, from legal injustices to body snatching.
- [01:17]
Maria Tremarke
And tune in at the end of each episode as we indulge in cocktails and mocktails inspired by each story.
- [01:24]
Holly Fry
Listen to criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. It was big news. I mean, white girl gets murdered, found in a cemetery. Big, big news.
- [01:35]
Narrator
A long investigation stalls until someone changes their story.
- [01:40]
Mary Kay McBrayer
I like saw a whole thing that happened.
- [01:42]
Narrator
An arrest, trial and conviction soon follow.
- [01:45]
Holly Fry
He did not kill her.
- [01:46]
Narrator
There's no way is the Real Killer rightly behind bars or still walking free. Did you kill her? Listen to the real Killer Season 3 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [02:01]
Mary Kay McBrayer
Hi listeners, I'm Mary Kay McBrayer, host of the Greatest True Crime Stories Ever Told Season 2 podcast, and I'm excited to share these riveting stories with you. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of the Greatest True Crime stories ever told season one and season two 100% ad free and access all episodes of the Greatest True Crime Stories Ever Told Season 2 one week early through the iHeart True Crime plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts Plus. You'll get access to other chart topping true crime shows you love like therein Gone South Street Paper Ghosts, Piketon Massacre, Murder Homes, Unrestorable, the Godmother, Betrayal, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for I Heart True Crime plus and subscribe today.
- [02:57]
Susie Spencer
Diversion Audio.
- [03:02]
Mary Kay McBrayer
This episode contains mature content and descriptions of violence that may be disturbing for some listeners. Please take care in listening. In a suburb of Houston in 2001, Officer Frank Stumpo responded to a 911 call from Andrea Yates. When he arrived to Clearwater, a middle class neighborhood with very little crime, he was shocked when his fellow policeman told him it was a homicide. Andrea sat on the sofa in a dirty living room, her wet hair lank. As Stumpo walked into the bedroom, he assumed she'd killed her boyfriend or something. Instead, he saw what he thought was a doll's head under the covers of the bed. He touched the head. It wasn't a doll and it was ice cold. Next to the infant's body, three of her brother's bodies were soaking through the mattress. They were all lined up under the covers. Officer Stumpo next discovered the body of Andrea's eldest son face down in the bathtub. It was Andrea who called in the murders and it was Andrea who had committed the murders. Now she sat on the sofa soaking wet and completely emotionless. Welcome to the greatest true crime stories ever told. I'm Mary Kay McBrayer. Today's episode is called Postpartum Psychosis Horror story. And this one is grim not just because it's about a multiple murder of children, although of course that alone makes it impossible. This episode is about Andrea Yates, a loving wife and mother of five who had postpartum depression after giving birth to each one of her children. She was also invested in the fundamentalist teachings of a hellfire and brimstone evangelist. So in the postpartum depression after her fifth delivery turned into postpartum psychosis. It melded with the fundamentalist teachings and led to a truly dismal conclusion. We'll untangle Yates story right after the break. Maybe you've heard the story of the Yellow Wallpaper. It's by Charlotte Perkins Gilman for some perspective. It was first published in 1892. I taught English composition and world literature for years. I'm a lifelong reader and of course I'm a writer and that makes me a literature person. But this story, I read it for the first time in public school in seventh grade and I did not understand what was happening. If you haven't read the Yellow Wallpaper, do it. It's harrowing and it's genius and it was ahead of its time. Essentially, this very intelligent woman has a baby and she doesn't bounce back the way they think she should. So her husband, who is also her doctor, and yes, that is a Big red flag decides they'll go live in the country for a little while. And our protagonist, she gets to stay in the top floor apartment. It sounds like a penthouse, but it isn't. It looks like a former nursery, except for the huge iron bed nailed to the ground, the bars over the windows, and the disgusting scrolling yellow wallpaper. While they stay in the country house, her husband, doctor, doesn't let her do anything. Anything, ostensibly for her own health. I mean, he is a doctor. She wants to go on a walk, but no, too much exertion. She wants to write a letter. Nope, too much stimulation. So she sits in her room and she stares at that wallpaper. She stares at it for so long that she sees things moving in it. And then it starts to come to life. To our seventh grade minds, this sounded like fantasy. Some lady went crazy. Sucks for her. But our teacher set us straight. This was postpartum depression, and her doctor husband treated it poorly, which made it escalate into postpartum psychosis. So obviously, the yellow wallpaper is fictional. It's a piece of literature. And while it's great, those are characters. They represent real people and real struggles, but they themselves are not real. Andrea Yates is real. She lived 100 years after that short story's publication. But I want to start her story when she was 25, in 1989, when she met her future husband, Rusty Yates. Andrea was a graduate of the University of Texas and a registered nurse. She'd achieved those milestones despite some troubles with depression, but these days, she was doing well. Andrea and Rusty lived in the same apartment complex, and Andrea made up some cute little excuse to meet him. And soon after, they were dating. And about a year later, they got married. By every eyewitness account, Andrea and Rusty were very happy together. They both had some pretty traditional values. And I know that by this many episodes in y'all probably think of me as a radical feminist killjoy, which I am. But the most powerful tool anyone can have is options. And Andrea did have options. No one forced her into that traditional lifestyle. She was smart and beautiful, and she had gotten her education, and she became a nurse. She supported herself, and then she chose Rusty. So, dear listeners, please don't think I am judging Andrea for wanting what she wanted. It is fine to want tradition, and it's fine to have it if it works for you. But the thing is, it didn't really work for Andrea, even though it seems like she really, really wanted it to. A little over a year after they got married, Andrea had their first child, Noah. And Andrea chose to be a stay at home mother to him, I should probably say as well. Rusty Yates was a NASA engineer. He earned enough that it wasn't a big financial strain for her to stay home. She did entertain the idea of returning to nursing part time too for a while. But the point is, he was a scientist and she was a medical professional. And this was a smart, educated couple. Which makes what happened next particularly unsettling. After Andrea quit her job, she and Rusty got pretty heavy into the teachings of Michael Waroniecki and his family. And the Warrenieckis were a pretty tough crowd. I get to interview the author of this exhaustive book on the case called Breaking Susie Spencer, so stick around for that. And when she talked to Rusty, Rusty told Susie that Michael Waronecki was a soft spoken preacher. A quick Google of that name reveals the exact opposite. His videos are terrifying. He gesticulates wildly. He wears a mask of Satan, which he said was to help convey his message through language barriers. One of their evangelist banners read, all that matters is that you are a sinner headed to hell. So that's pretty bad. And to be fair to non extremist Christians, that message is the exact opposite of Christianity's thesis that one goes something like, you would have been a sinner headed straight for hell if Christ hadn't died to save you from that eternal fate. So the fact that the Warrenieckis went another way, not good. Andrea had a lot of Michael Warignecki's teachings on tape, which she played often. She even wrote to the Warignekis, mostly Michael's wife Rachel, alongside their donations to this cause. All of this continued after the birth of the Yates second child, John and their third child Paul. Andrea wrote to them even after she and Rusty moved out of their first house and into a trailer park. That move, if it had been necessary, wouldn't have been that odd. It's an understandable thing to do if money is tight. But it wasn't necessary. Remember, Rusty worked for NASA. And the Yates didn't move into a trailer either. Trailers might be small and mobile, but they are set up for life with a bathroom and a kitchen and a table at which to eat, even an entertainment area, depending on the model. But the Yates moved into an old school bus. You might be wondering, but why did they do that in the first place? Or more importantly, why did that idea come into their brains at all? Rusty bought their Greyhound bus directly from the Warign Yukis and Rusty was immediately disillusioned with the Warren Yuki's teachings. Because this bus sucked. There were all kinds of problems with it that the Warignekis knew about and did not disclose to him. And if you'll lie about a little thing, well. But back to the story. Rusty had wanted to travel in an RV around the States for a while. That's not an awful idea in itself. It's kind of romantic. Unless you take it to the extreme, which he did. He also wanted to live in the vehicle permanently and get rid of all their worldly possessions. He had Andrea sell everything. In Breaking Point, Susie Spencer says they sold, quote, their wedding gifts, most of their furniture, everything but his tools and workout equipment, which went into a 10 foot by 10 foot storage facility. That's different. And it's really different when there are small children because, well, babies need a lot of stuff. Not to mention the kids slept in the luggage compartment. If you're like me, you might be thinking something like, what the fuck is a pregnant mother doing living in a Greyhound? That's what Andrea's family said too, more or less, when they found out about it. Because remember, Andrea never said she didn't want to live in this bus. I can't imagine that she actually wanted to. No one actually wants to do something like that. I'm sorry. No you don't. You want to want to. You might like the ideology or the concept of communing with nature or minimalism or scaling back your consumerism, but no one actually likes it. Not when it comes down to it. No, you don't. I will die on this hill. Think about the last time you went camping. Remember how you laid your 30 something year old back on the hard ass ground. And try to recall how you forgot your contact lens solution or some other such toiletry that makes our corporeal existence bearable. Really absorb those tactile observations. Really feel that piece of gravel in your hip that you missed when you were clearing the campsite. And now look me in the eyeballs and lie to me that you want to do that some more. And listeners, I am six months pregnant as of this recording. And I say with some confidence that just walking down the aisle of a Greyhound bus at this moment would prove a challenge. More likely you feel like you should want to do those things, and if you feel that way is probably because someone else is selling you on it. Speaking of, unlike Rusty, after the move onto the bus, Andrea was still down with the Warren Yukis and their message. I said before that she owned innumerable tapes of Michael's preaching and she continued to listen to them. All the time. And she believed a lot of what they said. Things like this.
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Rusty Yates
Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to stumble, it is better for him that a heavy millstone be hung around his neck and he be drowned in the depth of the sea. You mean Jesus, you're saying to kill yourself?
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Mary Kay McBrayer
Yeah. Long after Rusty stopped engaging with them, Andrea sent postcards to the Warignekis saying things like how lonely she was and asking for advice. Rachel Waraniecki responded that Andrea needed to just be better, be a better wife, be a better mother. No instructions on how to do that, just that if she didn't, her kids would probably go to hell. While all this was happening with the Warignekis, Andrea continued to have children. By the time she had her fourth child, Luke, her psychological state had significantly deteriorated. She went into a deep postpartum depression. On Wednesday, June 16, 1999, she called Rusty home from work. When he got to their converted Greyhound, she said, I need help. Rusty didn't know what to do, so he proposed a vacation. Maybe a break from the normal would help, even if just for a quick trip. He took them for a drive to Galveston, and they walked along the water. The next day, he took them all to the home of Andrea's parents. Maybe he thought she just needed more time with her family. Or maybe he thought her parents would know what to do. Mid afternoon the same day, Andrea wouldn't get out of bed. Her mom said, you need to get up. Your child's needing to be fed. And Andrea said she couldn't feed them. She'd just taken an overdose and she didn't want them to get the drug through nursing. At the emergency room, they induced vomiting. When she was stable, they moved her to Methodist Hospital, where she was diagnosed with depression with postpartum onset with psychosis. Dr. Eileen Starbranch also prescribed Andrea antidepressants, anti anxiety medication, and antipsychosis medication. When she spoke with Andrea, though, Andrea's main goal was to stay off medication so that she could breastfeed her child. A side note, most of these kinds of substances are safe to take while breastfeeding. I don't know exactly what her prescriptions were at this time, but most of the time, contemporary doctors will encourage their pregnant patients to continue taking drugs that stabilize their mental health, because your mental health is also important to the life you're growing. When a social worker spoke to Rusty about allowing their small children, small as in three years old, to handle power tools, Rusty bragged that Andrea had given birth to all four of their children without medication. Dr. Starbranch continued to see Andrea even after she discharged from Methodist Hospital. She recommended medication changes from Zoloft, an SSRI drug, to Zyprexa, an antipsychotic used for treating bipolar mania and schizophrenia. Susie Spencer writes that Zyprexa is, quote, a drug reserved for the most resistant cases. As a last resort, a one month supply cost $600 to $700, depending on the strength. Starbridge handed Andrea a few samples of the drug. Andrea Yates took the pills home and flushed them down the toilet. So when Andrea was prescribed medications for depression, she would do the thing that most people do. She'd take them long enough to restabilize and then she'd stop taking them. And listeners, in case you don't know, that's not how this kind of medicine works. It's not like taking Advil for pain. Consistency is crucial to these drugs working the way they're supposed to. I still can't get a clear read on why Andrea was so resistant to medication, except for the Waronieukis telling her it made her weak. Just a quick sidebar. Again, medicine like this actually makes you stronger. Anyone who is telling you that medicine makes you weak does not understand the situation. They don't understand what it's like without the medicine. And they certainly don't understand how literally life changing a drug like this can be. When she returned home from this first hospitalization, Andrea started pulling out her hair. She started scratching herself. These are without doubt forms of self harm. Only four weeks later, the psychosis returned to Andrea full force. She saw an image of a knife and she heard the words, get a knife, get a knife. So she got a knife. She was holding a steak knife to her throat in the bathroom trying to find the pulse point when Rusty came in looking for her. Andrea said, just let me do it. He didn't, of course, he got the knife from her. And the next day she was admitted to a new hospital. And even though Rusty managed to persuade her into signing herself in for care, she refused to sign a consent for medication form. By one o'clock the next day, though, they'd had to administer an emergency shot of the antipsychotic Haldol. That's when Andrea's mother stepped in and said to Rusty, no more bus. While Andrea was hospitalized, Rusty closed on a home in a safe suburban neighborhood. While at Memorial spring shadows glen, Dr. James Thompson diagnosed Andrea Yates with major depressive disorder, severe recurrent with psychotic features. If psychotropic drugs did not work or if she would not take them. He recommended electroshock therapy. On August 10th, Andrea started outpatient treatment back with Dr. Starbranch. Moving into the house had made Andrea feel like a failure, even though Rusty said it would give him the opportunity to complete some renovations. On the bus, Andrea said again that she wanted to stop using all medications. Her reason was that she wanted to have more children. Dr. Starbranch wrote in her notes. Apparently, patient and husband plan to have as many babies as nature will allow. This will surely guarantee future psychotic depression. After she gave birth to their fifth child, Mary, psychiatrists prescribed Andrea medication for both depression and psychosis. She saw things moving in the walls. She heard the devil talking to her, telling her to do things. For example, when Andrea watched cartoons with her children, quote, the characters would speak directly to her and comment on her, telling her she was a bad mother. The same character spoke directly to her children, telling them, don't eat so much candy and your mother is feeding you too much cereal. That seems cruel enough. Characters from the film O Brother, Where Art Thou? Also judged her and said she was a hellish influence. After a while, she reported that the voices told her, my children were not righteous. I let them stumble. They were doomed to perish in the fires of hell, and they had to die to be saved. But this didn't happen when she took Haldol. Haldol is prescribed for psychotic patients hearing voices or thinking delusionally. Later, Dr. Lucy Puryear, a medical professor, further explained, the patient usually functions normally as a result of the medication, but is also subject to recurrences when he or she goes off of it. So it's important to be sure they're not at risk of hurting themselves or someone else. Basically, Haldol stopped those psychoses, but like many medicines and preventative care measures, they don't work if you don't use them. Even while she was hospitalized, Andrea was notorious for cheeking her medicine, which is the inside term for hiding her medicine in her cheek and then spitting it out. When Andrea became pregnant with their fifth child in early March of the following year, which was 2000, she was off all medications. Andrea did fine for a few months after Mary's birth. Two weeks after Mary was born, Andrea threw a birthday party for their third son. On the home video, everyone, including Andrea, seems to be in high spirits. And then Andrea's father died in March of 2001. At the end of March, Andrea went into a deeper depression and psychosis. And while Andrea's care at the previous hospital was great, this new hospital devereaux had a lot of problems. They had 29 pages of complaints from September 1, 1996, to August 3, 1999. Susie Spencer says in Breaking Point. The complaints involved everything from neglect to abuse to death. And 28% of those complaints were found to be valid. And the typical stay there was only one to three days. Rusty asked one of the professionals if her doctor was any good, and they said, they're all good. When Andrea was admitted to Devereaux Hospital on March 31 of 2001, Rusty asked her new doctor, Mohammed said, to put her on the same medications as before because they worked. He refused. Haldol was an old drug. He put her on a different antipsychotic, Risperdal. The notes from this time period are rushed and inconsistent. Sometimes nurses claimed Andrea was near catatonic, refusing to bathe or participate in group therapies. Dr. Said sometimes wrote that she was up and about when nurses said she hadn't left bed all day. So because Andrea's compliance was poor and her condition was documented as improved by report, Rusty was shocked when he arrived at 6pm on April 18, 2001, and Andrea's bags were packed. She was completely released from Devereaux 18 days after holding a steak knife to her own throat. At that time, she had prescriptions for Effexor, Wellbutrin, Restoril, Tylenol and Mylanta. Both her Effexor and Wellbutrin dosages had been reduced. Doctors made no mention of the antipsychotic Risperdal at all. On Monday, June 18, Rusty took Andrea to the doctor and told him that she wasn't doing well. He asked the doctor if her antidepressant could be changed. The doctor said, quote, well, since it's not working anyway, he would reduce the Effexor from 450mg to 300mg. Rusty had read that Effexor shouldn't be reduced by more than 75 milligrams every three or four days, not 150 milligrams in one day. But the doctor said it was okay. Rusty tried to intervene to advocate for her, but the doctor didn't hear him. Rusty Yates went to the pharmacy, got the new prescriptions filled, came home and gave them to Andrea. That was Monday night. On Wednesday morning, their children were all dead, drowned one by one at Andrea's hand. When police arrived to find Andrea soaked, they also found wet footprints outside the bathroom, which indicated at least one child had known what was happening. Noah, the eldest boy, had tried to run from Andrea. But she caught him. On July 16, 2001, nearly one month after the murders, the doctor at the Harris county jail telephoned Rusty. She said she was going to put Andrea on Wellbutrin, Effexor and Haldol. Those were the same drugs she'd been on before, the ones he had asked for. If the doctors had listened to him, he said, my kids would be alive, Andrea would be in recovery, and we wouldn't be famous. Andrea Yates had held each of her children face down in the full bathtub until they asphyxiated by drowning. And then she laid the youngest, four side by side, soaking wet under the covers on the bed. The eldest was still floating in the tub when the police arrived. The police that Andrea called, they arrested her immediately. Rusty Yates was outside the house screaming, how could you do this? I don't understand. Andrea sat drenched on the love seat and barely looked up at him. The reporting officer, Frank Stumpo, asked her, do you realize what you have done? And she said, yes, I do. That's what she said. And she did know what she had done, or she wouldn't have called the police. But it wasn't as simple as that. Her attorney, George Parnham, knew as much. He would plead for her that she was not guilty by reason of insanity. He said, for the defense of insanity to be credible, one must be suffering from a severe mental disease and as a result thereof, does not know what he or she is doing is wrong. Five children were now dead by their mother's hand. But why? In custody, Andrea seemed to be almost completely unresponsive. If asked questions, she would either not respond at all or respond minutes later, asking for them to be repeated. In occasional moments of clarity, she would scream and cry when she realized her children were dead. She was psychologically evaluated many times by many professionals. Not one of them ever suggested that Andrea's condition was not authentic. One expert who later testified in court was professor of psychiatry, Dr. Philip Resnick. After hours of interviews, he said that, quote, Mrs. Yates had the belief that children were not accountable for their actions until they were 10 years old. When someone is deeply religious like that, I need to sort out to what extent these ideas are held by her co religionists. He asked Andrea, if you had not taken their lives, where would they have ended up? Andrea said, hell. She actually thought that by taking their lives, she was saving her children. She was saving them from herself because of her hallucinations that she saw and heard the devil. In her mind, she was the devil. The plan was it seemed to save her children from the devil by killing them and releasing them to heaven, and then to save herself from the devil by killing herself as well. While Andrea was being evaluated, life outside the prison went on. I mean, it didn't. Not really. What I mean is Rusty and their families had to bury their five children. They held one large, moving funeral for all five of them. Rusty talked about each of his children in a heartfelt eulogy. And their likenesses are engraved above the grave that they share. So are their ages, ranging from six months old to seven years. The whole country was horrified at the case, of course. The Yateses were a normal, middle class Christian family. It not only couldn't have happened, it couldn't have happened to them. Protesters showed up at the courthouse. They echoed the prosecution that in her son John's fist was a lock of Andrea's hair. He fought to survive. And Andrea completed the murders in a single hour between when Rusty left for work and when his mother was supposed to show up to help for the day. She had planned it. She had killed five children, her children, and then called the police. Andrea should be immediately put to death. What was there to discuss? Others rallied to support her, using the opportunity to advocate for mental health rights and teach others how to recognize its signs. Rusty Yates said this about Andrea after the murders.
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Rusty Yates
My wife, I'm supportive of her, you know, it's hard because on one hand, I know she killed our children, you know, but on the other, I know that, you know, the woman here is not the woman that killed my children.
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Mary Kay McBrayer
Andrea's attorney, George Parnham, said if Andrea is not insane, then no one is. You can just wipe that term from the books. To plead insanity, you have to know what you did, but not know that what you did was wrong. And that's really hard to prove, especially when your client can't help you, which Andrea couldn't. She was almost entirely non verbal at this point. So Parham decided to hold a competency trial. It was set for Monday, August 27, 2000. 1. Competency is different from sanity. Someone can be competent and insane. When Parham defined competency for the jurors, he said it hinged on two One, sufficient ability to consult with the person's lawyer with a reasonable degree of rational understanding, and two, a rational and factual understanding of the proceedings against the person. What attorney Parham wanted to show the jury is that Andrea Yates was so incompetent at this moment that she couldn't help her defense. Well, defend her. She couldn't answer simple questions. The hearing Went on for an excruciating amount of time. Both sides of the aisle, fiercely passionate in their beliefs. All witnesses were aware of the intensity. One statement that I personally found super impactful came from Joe Ombie, the prosecution. He said to the jury, if you don't find her competent, she will never be put to trial. The defense objected, and Judge Belinda Hill sustained it. But she didn't order it struck from the record. Finally, after three weeks of the hearing, on Saturday, September 22, the juror stood and pronounced Andrea competent to stand trial. Andrea Yates was subsequently tried for the murders of her five children. One piece of evidence that seemed to sway the verdict was the testimony of Dr. Park Dietz. He said that because Andrea watched the television show Law and Order regularly, she likely based her plan for murder on an episode in which a mother drowns her children. It implied premeditation, which implied sanity. After the court was presented with evidence and expert witness testimonies, Andrea Yates was ruled guilty of capital murder and and sentenced to life in prison. She could have received the death penalty. Rusty said in a press interview after the verdict that none of us wanted her to be found guilty. In fact, most of us were offended that she was even prosecuted. The prosecution said that the best possible outcome was serving justice for the children. But that wasn't the end of it. A reporter approached Andrea's defense attorney, Parham. She'd seen every episode of Law and Order. There was no episode about a mother drowning a child. It just didn't exist. Further scrutiny revealed Dr. Park Dietz's testimony, or at least that part of it to be untrue. With this false testimony, Parham appealed Andrea's verdict. The case was retried in June of 2006 without the television show's blueprint as evidence. This time was different. This time, on July 26th of 2006, Andrea was ruled not guilty by reason of insanity. The jury said yes, she knew what she was doing was against the law, but she also thought that what she was doing was right. Andrea was confined, and still is, to Kerrville state. She's now 57 years old, and every year she has the opportunity for her situation to be reviewed. She's waived her right to review every single year. Instead, she continues her treatment. She and Rusty divorced, but still remain in contact. Rusty remarried and has become a father again. As a result of Andrea Yates case, Texas now administers a screening test for postpartum depression to all women who give birth in the state. To write this episode, I drew heavily on the book by Susie Spencer about Andrea Yates called Breaking Point. Now I get to talk to Susie Spencer herself. Hey, Susie, thank you so, so much for coming back to talk to me about Breaking Point and Andrea Yates.
- [43:33]
Susie Spencer
I'm excited to talk about it. It's been a long time since I've discussed that one.
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Mary Kay McBrayer
How do you approach researching Andrea? Like, what was the moment of inception there? And, like, what was that journey for you?
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Susie Spencer
The Monday after it happened, my agent called me up and said, would you like to do a book on this? So I talked to my mom about that, who was my advisor on everything, and she said, someone's going to do the book, and you'll do it with more sensitivity, so do it. The next day, I called my agent and said, okay, I'm doing it. And a few hours later, I was on the road to Houston. And so I drove over there, and the first thing I did was drive by the church where the funeral was going to be. Just got overwhelmed with that, you know, kind of searched it out, and tape recorded as much as I could have nonchalantly, you know, and that's how it all started.
- [44:36]
Mary Kay McBrayer
Whew. That is a really beginning with a bang. Do you have, like, a starting question when you go into the research, or are you just open to what's happening on this?
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Susie Spencer
This was all happening in the Houston area, and I live in Austin. I had zero contacts there, and I was competing against the big names. It was just kind of reading the newspapers and seeing who they had interviewed and then going and knocking on doors. Or another thing I would do is just hang out somewhere and listen to the gossip. The first time I saw Rusty Yates, I think we were both walking into the courthouse, and I recognized him immediately. And I went up to him and I said, hey, Rusty, if you want to avoid the cameras, go in this other way. And he said, no, that's okay. Thanks. And so that was the extent of our conversation. I did not introduce myself at all. And some way or other, I don't remember how I met a woman who was going to the same church as Rusty. And one of the things that shocked me is how Rusty had so many groupies, people who were already dreaming of marrying him.
- [46:04]
Mary Kay McBrayer
That's so weird. So weird. I'm sorry. Go ahead.
- [46:08]
Susie Spencer
Yeah, it kind of blew me away. And so she went to the church that Rusty was now going to. They had not gone to a church previously, but because of the funeral that he started going to this church. And so I just went to kind of get a feel of everything. And then all these sweet little old Ladies. And the person I was with, the one who had a crush on Rusty, said, come on. And we always have this after church potluck. Come join us. Our Sunday school is putting it on. We have really good food. Come on.
- [46:42]
Mary Kay McBrayer
So it would be hard to turn down that invitation at any church for me.
- [46:46]
Susie Spencer
And the food was good. And Rusty was there.
- [46:50]
Mary Kay McBrayer
Yep.
- [46:50]
Susie Spencer
And to watch everyone just fawn over him. Oh, Rusty, would you like this? Rusty, would you like that? And so I was sitting near him, and we just started talking. And I'm pretty sure at that point I said, look, Rusty, I want you to know who I am. Susie Spencer. I'm doing a book on this case. And so we just started staying in touch. And then when the competency hearing was supposed to start, that's when 911 happened. So all these big fancy names who had been wooing Rusty disappeared. They were off to New York to cover that. I was the only one left standing there in Houston. So Rusty and I started communicating more often. I explain it that he has tunnel vision. And it's what I want, what I want, and nothing else is going to get in the way. Okay. My wife is suicidal, and, you know, everything's going horrible. But I can't deal with that right now because I've got to do this project, and that doesn't fit in with my life and my image. My image is I have the perfect family. I can't deal with that. And I think that is his biggest downfall. No offense, Rusty, because I know he's not thrilled with me, but that's. I just see the tunnel vision. Like, God willing, he's grown out of that, but we all have that to some degree.
- [48:38]
Mary Kay McBrayer
Shifting gears a little bit. When you were talking with him or even afterward, was there a point where, like. Where you could pin. Not pinpoint, but be like, this is the breaking point. This is where the break happened. This is where her train jumped the tracks. This is where some early intervention could have potentially saved six lives.
- [49:00]
Susie Spencer
I think there's numerous answers to it, and the very first one is choosing to have another child. Rusty was told, at least I think he was told, that if he had another child, that surely she would go into postpartum depression and psychosis again. And every time it happens, it gets worse and worse. And Rusty told me he thought of it as. And this still just stuns me that he said this. He thought of it as like, you were offered a brand new Mercedes for free or whatever, and if you took this Mercedes, you might get the flu. But then you knew what the treatment was to get over the flu and everything would be okay. So another child was the Mercedes, but they knew what would happen to Andrea, and they knew how to treat it, and so it would be okay. But it wasn't okay because she did not get the proper treatment, as well as the fact that it was made worse by the death of her father. And Andrea, even though people don't believe this was a very loving mother, I do believe that.
- [50:27]
Mary Kay McBrayer
I think that came across very clearly. I get that intuitive leap that she made because she was only ever around them and rusty, like she never had a reality check. Voicing some concerns to a friend, and the friend being like, what? No, that's exactly wrong. You know, like, she didn't have that release valve. Right. She could just go deeper into it.
- [50:45]
Susie Spencer
Her best friend was worried about her and tried to come see her and communicate with her, and she was just kind of shut out. The other people that she had communication with was Michael Warnecki and his family, the traveling evangelist. And Lucy Puryear, who was the psychiatrist who treated Andrea or was the defense expert witness, spent a lot of time with Andrea, and she told me Andrea would have been mentally ill no matter what, but she would not have drowned the children without the influence of the Warinekis, who taught her that all women are witches and evil.
- [51:34]
Mary Kay McBrayer
Well, thank you so, so much for coming to talk to me again.
- [51:38]
Susie Spencer
Yeah, you could tell I've gotten a little heated up about this. My glasses are fogging everything.
- [51:43]
Mary Kay McBrayer
How could you not Omrish?
- [51:46]
Susie Spencer
It's like this one just gets my emotions going. Yeah, this one just still. It rips the soul. Rips the soul.
- [52:08]
Mary Kay McBrayer
Thank you again to Susie Spencer, both for talking to me about this case and for writing the book Breaking Point, which helped me write this episode. Other sources include Investigation Discoveries, episode on Andrea Yates from their series the Crimes that Changed Us, and several news articles. All of these sources are linked in our show notes. If you want to learn more, join me next week on the Greatest True Crime Stories Ever Told for our episode about Pablo Escobar's hostages. That's right. In the 1990s, the drug kingpin of the Medellin cartel didn't want to be extradited to the United States, so he started taking hostages. And several of them were powerful women journalists. I'll tell you all about it next week. For more information about this case and the others we cover on the show, visit diversionaudio.com the greatest true crime Stories Ever Told is a production of Diversion Audio. I'm Mary Kay McBrayer and I hosted this episode. I also wrote this episode. And if you like my writing, you should check out my book, America's First Female Serial Killer, Jane Toppan and the Making of a Monster. One more thing before I go, if you haven't already. I'll love you forever. If you pre order my forthcoming trip true Crime book Madame the Life and Crimes of Harlem's Underground Racketeer Stephanie Sinclair, there's a link to do it at your favorite retailer in our show's notes. Our show is edited by Antonio Enriquez Theme music by Tyler Cash Produced by Emma DeMuth Executive produced by Scott Waxman.
- [53:54]
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- [54:49]
Maria Tremarke
Welcome to the Criminalia Podcast. I'm Maria Tromarki.
- [54:52]
Holly Fry
And I'm Holly Fry. Together we invite you into the dark and winding corridors of historical true crime.
- [54:59]
Maria Tremarke
Each season we explore a new theme. From poisoners to art thieves.
- [55:04]
Holly Fry
We uncover the secrets of history's most interesting figures, from legal injustices to body snatching.
- [55:10]
Maria Tremarke
And tune in at the end of each episode as we indulge in cocktails and mocktails inspired by each story.
- [55:17]
Holly Fry
Listen to criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It was big news. I mean, white girl gets murdered, found in a cemetery. Big, big news.
- [55:29]
Narrator
A long investigation st until someone changes their story.
- [55:33]
Mary Kay McBrayer
I like saw a whole thing that happened.
- [55:35]
Narrator
An arrest, trial and conviction soon follow.
- [55:38]
Holly Fry
He did not kill her.
- [55:40]
Narrator
There's no way is the real Killer rightly behind bars or still walking free. Did you kill her? Listen to the Real Killer Season 3 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [55:55]
Mary Kay McBrayer
Hi listeners, I'm Mary Kay McBrayer, host of the Greatest True Crime Stories Ever Told Season 2 podcast, and I'm excited to share these riveting stories with you. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of the Greatest True Crime Stories ever told, season one and season two 100% ad free and access all episodes of the Greatest True Crime Stories Ever Told Season two one week early through the I Heart True Crime plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus you'll get access to other chart topping true crime shows shows you love like There and Gone, South Street, Paper Ghosts, Piketon Massacre, Murder Homes, Unrestorable, the Godmother, Betrayal, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iheartrucrime plus and subscribe today.