The Powerful Work of Quiet Discipline :: Jackie Hill Perry

Summary

The Grove Podcast

Episode: The Powerful Work of Quiet Discipline
Guest: Jackie Hill Perry
Host: Shelley (with intro/outro by Franchesca Price)
Date: November 12, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deeply into the tension between ambition and obedience, the importance of quiet discipline, and how God shapes us in both visible and hidden seasons. Jackie Hill Perry and Shelley reflect on what it means to prioritize family, realign one’s sense of success, and walk out spiritual disciplines not as legalism but as vital, love-driven practices. Through honest dialogue, they explore themes of surrender, faith amidst uncertainty, and finding strength in weakness. The conversation provides practical wisdom for women wrestling with balancing calling, family, ambition, and intimacy with God.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Shift from Stage to Home: Redefining Success

[02:22 – 09:27]

• Jackie shares her journey from being highly visible in ministry (120 flights a year) to choosing family and saying more "no's" in response to God prompting her to take care of her children.
• She honestly confronts the struggle of redefining what it means to be "useful" and successful—moving from public affirmation to the quiet work of motherhood and family.
• Quote [07:27]:
  “The strongest sentence was impressed upon my heart. 'I want you to take care of your kids.'” – Jackie Hill Perry

Memorable Moments:

• Jackie describes feeling inefficient when her days were filled with chores instead of public ministry, highlighting the tension many moms feel.
• Shelley affirms the value shift, noting, “You not knowing your kids was not God's design.” [09:27]

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2. The Work God Does in Hiddenness

[09:34 – 15:23]

• Shelley shares about the "gold of God" found in seasons of lack or hiddenness—when applause and affirmation are gone and you’re left to meet God in the quiet.
• Their discussion draws a parallel with biblical narratives (e.g., Moses shepherding, Abraham’s incremental trials) to show that quiet, faithfulness in mundane tasks is vital preparation.
• Quote [13:59]: “I felt weak yet filled. God wastes nothing… the day to day, the humdrum, mundane thing is going to be used by God as fuel for evangelism. That stuff is what builds power.” – Jackie Hill Perry

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3. Reframing Spiritual Discipline: From Duty to Delight

[15:46 – 24:50]

• Jackie unpacks how spiritual disciplines (prayer, Bible reading, fasting, community) aren’t about proving something to God but cultivating deeper relationship with Him.
• They address how church culture sometimes warps disciplines into legalism, making people anxious rather than drawing them to God.
• Quote [18:33]:
  “It becomes religious or it becomes legalistic when we are doing spiritual disciplines to prove a thing instead of doing spiritual disciplines to cultivate a thing.” – Jackie Hill Perry
• Quote [19:47]:
  “I don’t pray to God to prove to God that I love Him. I pray to God because I need Him.” – Jackie Hill Perry

Key Insight:
Shelley contrasts learning Scripture for knowledge with learning Scripture to truly know and love God.

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4. The Battle for Belief: Spiritual Warfare & Hope

[25:04 – 28:12]

• They discuss how the enemy discourages believers—convincing them they’ll "never do it right," so why bother with prayer or disciplines.
• Jackie points out the practical, "logical" appeal of unbelief versus the hard-yet-holy work of hoping in God’s promises.
• Quote [26:30]:
  “Faith takes hope. Unbelief is a bit more easier. When Satan speaks to us, we entertain him because it actually leans more logical.” – Jackie Hill Perry

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5. Hope in What is Not Yet Seen

[28:50 – 31:16]

• Shelley references Romans 8:24-25, emphasizing hope’s role where provision is not yet visible.
• They discuss how real faith and hope come alive in places of lack, not just in already-satisfied seasons.
• Quote [29:13]:
  “Why would you hope in something you already have? Hope is for what we have not yet seen. So where we are in a place of lack, that's where hope is alive.” – Shelley

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6. When You Don’t Know What To Pray: The Deepest Surrender

[30:34 – 32:57]

• Jackie vulnerably shares praying when she has no strategy left:
  “I don’t really know what you’re doing and I don’t even know what to pray. So I just ultimately pray that you make me like Jesus. I’m just going to pray that you make me like Jesus. And if you make me like Jesus, then I think I’m praying the right prayer.” [31:19]
• This surrender becomes the anchor in bewildering circumstances.

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7. How God Prepares Us Over Time

[33:19 – 36:22]

• Jackie asks Shelley about patterns of preparation in her life, likening it to Abraham’s step-by-step faith journey.
• Shelley emphasizes how God prepares us in hidden, dark room seasons for the trials to come—preparation that is only fully understood in hindsight.
• Quote [36:22]:
  “That dark room was the most important thing in my life. It wasn’t just a setting apart. It was a preparation for everything I was about to endure.” – Shelley

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8. Living for God’s Glory Alone

[37:26 – 39:04]

• The episode closes with affirmation that every season (public, hidden, hard, fruitful) is about being conformed to Christ and bringing God glory, not ourselves.
• Both acknowledge the humbling reality of God using humble, imperfect people for His purposes.
• Quote [38:03]:
  “It's funny how stuff like that used to encourage me. Now it scares me. I get morbid about it now... I also die trying to die more.” – Jackie Hill Perry
• Shelley grounds it: “He'll use your life in ways you could never fathom. ...Your life is not unimportant. It's very important, but it's not important for your sake, but for his. Let it be so, Lord.” [37:58]

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• [07:27] Jackie Hill Perry: “The strongest sentence was impressed upon my heart. ‘I want you to take care of your kids.’”
• [13:59] Jackie Hill Perry: “I felt weak yet filled. ...the day to day, the humdrum, mundane thing is going to be used by God as fuel for evangelism.”
• [18:33] Jackie Hill Perry: “It becomes legalistic when we're doing spiritual disciplines to prove a thing instead of cultivating a thing.”
• [19:47] Jackie Hill Perry: “I don’t pray to God to prove to God that I love him. I pray to God because I need him.”
• [26:30] Jackie Hill Perry: “Faith takes hope. Unbelief is a bit more easier...when Satan speaks to us, it actually leans more logical.”
• [29:13] Shelley: “Why would you hope in something you already have? Hope is for what we have not yet seen.”
• [31:19] Jackie Hill Perry: “I don’t really know what you’re doing and I don’t even know what to pray. So I just ultimately pray that you make me like Jesus.”
• [36:22] Shelley: “That dark room was the most important thing in my life...It was a preparation for everything I was about to endure.”
• [38:03] Jackie Hill Perry: “It's funny how stuff like that used to encourage me. Now it scares me. ...I also die trying to die more.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00 – 02:21 – Introduction, context, Jackie’s journey
• 02:22 – 09:27 – Jackie on shifting from ambition to family focus
• 09:34 – 15:23 – The spiritual value found in hidden seasons
• 15:46 – 24:50 – Spiritual discipline: duty vs. delight
• 25:04 – 28:12 – The enemy’s tactics, the challenge of belief
• 28:50 – 31:16 – Living in hope for unseen things
• 31:19 – 32:57 – Praying when you don’t know what to pray
• 33:19 – 36:22 – God’s cumulative preparation in our lives
• 36:22 – 39:04 – The life that brings God glory alone

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Takeaways

• Quiet discipline is a powerful, God-honoring act—even (especially) when unseen.
• Success in God’s eyes is obedience, not busyness or public fruit.
• Hidden seasons prepare us for future faith and ministry—embrace them.
• Spiritual disciplines are an invitation to know and love God, not a checklist to earn His favor.
• Hope is alive where provision is lacking; faith is exercised most when outcomes are uncertain.
• Surrendering strategies and praying simply 'make me like Jesus' is often the wisest approach.

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For those who haven’t listened, this episode will encourage anyone wrestling with ambition, family, faithfulness in obscurity, or spiritual dryness. Jackie and Shelley’s candid, scriptural conversation offers both challenge and hope for living as rooted, flourishing women of God.

Transcript

[Franchesca Price]

Foreign. Welcome back to the Grove Podcast. It's your friend Franchesca Price here, and I am so excited to introduce today's conversation to you. If you've been around the Passion movement, you are no stranger to our friend, Jackie Hill Perry. Jackie is a force for the Kingdom of God, a talented author, an impactful speaker, and the host of her own incredible podcast alongside her husband, Preston, called with the Perrys. Jackie and Shelley unpack so much goodness in this episode together. From dying to our own ideas of success, to leading in your home, to prioritizing and shaping your time with him, to trusting that Jesus is at work in every part of your story, the list goes on and on. Our hope is that wherever this conversation finds you today, it would speak to your own personal story, reminding you to let God use you, even when it seems unconventional. To hope for what you have not yet seen and to be more like Jesus because of it. I can't wait for you to dive in for. So let's get started.

[Shelley]

Awesome. Welcome to the Grove Podcast. Jackie Hill Perry is here. One of my favorite people.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Hey.

[Shelley]

I love being back together. We just had a little moment together.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

We had a podcast, actually.

[Shelley]

We actually had a podcast before the podcast we did. We'll try to maybe reiterate some of the things that we were talking about, but I love that you keep coming back. Thank you for that. And friendship goes deep.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I love you, Shelley.

[Shelley]

I love you. I love you back.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You edify me.

[Shelley]

I really am so encouraged by your life. And I think when I watch your life, I get to see the growth and the trajectory of what God's doing in you. And not that you weren't on everyone's radar when I met you, you already kind of were. But I think you just. The fact that God uses people is amazing. The fact that he could use any of us is stunning. But then the way he uses you, the way he chooses to use your distinctive, your uniqueness to articulate the gospel in such clear manner, it's just so encouraging to me. And I like it and I like you, so I'm thankful.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Thank you.

[Shelley]

Today I want to talk about a lot of different kinds of things, but one of the things we were talking about earlier was just related to passion. And you've gotten to be around passion now a little bit and preach in different arenas with us and be in different spaces. And you were asking me about Texas this year and just the uniquenesses that are there because we're somewhere different than Atlanta for this season. And we were just talking about the covering of God over us and how we move with confidence, not because we're confident, but because we're confident he's with us and how that confidence gives us the ability to obey. Yeah. And I know in a season of your life, even recently, it felt like you were so far out there for a long time in your life doing a lot of things, very missionary oriented. Jackie, you were on the front edge of a lot of conversations, a lot of opportunities. I saw you everywhere. You were at a lot of conference stuff. You were just a lot of places. And then it seems like in the last season, less so. I think some of it was a calling back to family in some ways, to your kids and maybe to your life at home a little more. I think some of it was probably a retreating in a sense of, you know what? I'm gonna go home for a minute and kind of regroup and let the Lord sort of build back some strength in me. So talk. Talk about that season and just where you are now and what you're sensing.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah. Well, it's so much. But I think a big shift is that I think over the last few years, I've constantly been calibrating or watching my schedule, and as my children have grown or as my heart has shifted, or I'm just always being watchful.

[Shelley]

Yeah. You know, I think paying attention to your own life is important.

[Franchesca Price]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You just have to watch. You know, people are always like, how do you have balance? I don't. I don't think balance is a thing. You just always have to be watchful, you know, and so there were one. There's one season where I did. I had 120 flights, I think, you know, okay, cool. But is that the wisest thing? Probably not. You know, it's fun to fly. It's fun to preach the gospel. It's fun to do ministry with your friends. It's fun to do all the stuff. But there's also an element of it where it feels good to be useful, it feels good to be wanted. It feels good to be affirmed in that way. And I think being raised in a household where success is valued, where ambition is valued, where leisure is demonized, I have to go to war against making ambition and identity.

[Shelley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You understand what I'm saying?

[Shelley]

You're preaching to a lot of people right now on that thing. Because that's the thing. American culture celebrates busyness.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah.

[Shelley]

As success. It's confusing.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah. Especially when it's ministry.

[Shelley]

Because success with God is success. When we're obedient to the Things he's asked us to do, not when we have stuff that's to do.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Shelley]

And I think we get those two things confused pretty easily.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah. Yeah. So one of the biggest changes was maybe a couple years ago, I made the decision to. To only take between 10 to 15 events a year. And so once I gave my 10 to 15 yeses, that was it.

[Shelley]

And then it's interesting how many opportunities come right after that, too. Right?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah. But it is what it is. Like, it means I'm restricting my yes. You've already decided it is what it is, and so that means you. Probably once a month, I'm giving my yes to someone, and then everything else is my family or my church. Yeah. And then maybe a year and a half ago, we let go of our nanny, and so I was praying for an additional nanny for help and all the things. And it was like some months were going by and we didn't have a nanny. And mind you, I got four kids.

[Shelley]

You got a lot going on, girl. A lot.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

So I'm. I'm podcasting, I'm preaching, I'm writing, I'm. I'm entered back. I've entered back into music, conferences, all the stuff. And we don't have a nanny. So the balance, Lord, the balance is not balancing.

[Shelley]

Do you see me?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I feel like I'm about to lose my mind. Even with the 10 events, I still have all these adjacent things going on. And I'm driving, and I said, okay, Lord, what's happening? I promise you. I said, lord, why aren't you sending the nanny? I promise you. The strongest sentence was impressed upon my heart. I want you to take care of your kids.

[Shelley]

Wow.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And so what then happened is Monday through Friday, that means that my schedule now has to completely change where there's more no's that have to come out because I need to be home with my kids. And I. I'm sensitive to the reality that there are many mothers listening, saying, well, that's my. That's my life all the time. That has not been my life, you know? And so what it did, though, is the last year and a half, I have died to ambition. I have died to what I felt success was. And I have grown to just enjoy my children.

[Shelley]

What a beautiful thing.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I've grown to just love sitting outside with them, just playing with toys and me reading Tim Keller's devotional. I've grown to just enjoy silence and boredom. And it took a really long time to get there.

[Shelley]

Yeah, it's an unraveling.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

It was driving Me insane. Because there were weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks where I literally felt like I was, like, being. I felt like I was being inefficient because I'm like, all I did today was change diapers and sweep and wash dishes, and it felt like, Jackie, you. You didn't write a book. Like, it felt like not doing something big was not good enough because that's all I'm used to.

[Shelley]

Would you say that's true now, though, after the year and a half?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

No, because I'm like, my kids know me better. Yeah, they know me better. You know what I'm saying? And so now that I'm probably about to enter back into potentially publishing something, I don't. I don't care as much.

[Shelley]

You will do it so differently.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah, I don't care as much. So I don't know. I think that's the difference in me is that my family is just more important to me, and I think that is more important to God.

[Shelley]

So I think that's the clearest thing you've probably said on any podcast anywhere. And maybe the most helpful.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah.

[Shelley]

Because, you know, for us, we don't have kids, and so people watch our lives and we have a different kind of stewardship because it's unique because of not having children. And so people appreciate that in ways and probably wonder in ways. Like, it's weird, but I think people who do have kids walk a very distinct line of figuring out what investment in my family is truly what I'm supposed to be giving. And they're always. It's a moving line. It doesn't stay the same place all the time. You just mentioned you'll be doing some more and then seasons to come where you did less in the past seasons. That's okay. All that's God's design ebbs and flows. But you not knowing your kids was not God's design. You being on the road to get every one of your needs met without serving your own family, that was not God's design. And I think now your awareness, and I also really believe, and I think, because I've spent a lot of years in places that felt very hidden. There is a gold of God that is discovered in seasons of lack.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

What do you mean?

[Shelley]

I am not in a place where all my needs are being met by my friends who like me, by the people clapping for what I'm bringing, by what I'm saying. And yes, amen. I'm not getting any needs met in those environments. So my needs now have to be met somewhere and that somewhere is God. And that hidden place allows him to do a work that's so much deeper than what anyone's affection and attention will ever do for us. And without sacrificing the one for the other. We never know. We think that God's favoring and that their applause and their appreciation is God's way of showing us good job. Whereas what he really loves for us to get is what he can only give us when none of that is present. And it doesn't mean that he's not going to use us and allow us to be in places where some of that happens, but we're going to do that differently once we discover that what we actually need comes only from Him.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yes. Yes.

[Shelley]

So when you return.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah.

[Shelley]

When you go back into some of the spaces that he's designed for you to be. And I believe that because I've seen you in those places. He tailor made that for Jackie Hillbury.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Because the truth is, even this year at Passion, I preached differently. You did than I've preached in a long time. And that came from the intimacy that was developed with me being at home more. You understand what I'm saying?

[Shelley]

And it was so apparent because I knew some of what was stirring at home and that you were there more and all the things. But when I saw you and heard you, what was my first phrase to you?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Whatever God is doing. You told Preston. I think you said, whatever God is doing in Jackie, but it was also like you knew it was with some pain.

[Shelley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And some. Something. But whatever he doing, if it hurt, I hope he keep doing it. You said something like that.

[Shelley]

I did. Because I think what we see of you in those moments is vulnerability. And. And you know, we've talked about this before on the podcast and I've talked to you about it in real life. You're pretty layered up. It's hard to reach, Jackie.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah.

[Shelley]

More and more and more you are emerging. Glory be to God. But I think when you preach, you're also emerging. And somehow the broken frailty of us in it, the dust part of you being visible to all of us, doesn't give you less credibility. It gives you more. And when you stand and deliver the word of God as a broken, dust filled person who is definitely dependent wholly on God, man, what transpires is holy. It is unique. And man, what happened at Passion this year, you stood up, you delivered. You were almost shaky in doing it.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Oh, yeah, yeah. My knees were. I felt weak yet filled. And I. I think it's. And even while I'M talking, I'm thinking about all the people listening in the different contexts that people exist in. And it's to say that God wastes nothing. Right, Right. And so it's the day to day. It's like Moses. It's just, he's just, he was just feeding sheep for years and years and years, seemingly doing nothing. And that's not to say that God will exalt, be a deliverer of people into the land of Egypt. Because I don't even want to use language like God is going to build a testimony for you and exalt you one day to be a. No, it's to say that you feeding your children day by day by day, you doing the humdrum, mundane thing is going to be used by God at your job.

[Shelley]

That's right.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Is going to be used by God on the bus stop is going to be used by God at the like whatever you do, day, dayto day is going to be used by God f as fuel for evangelism. Like that stuff is the stuff that builds power. That's the point. You know what I'm saying?

[Shelley]

It is.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And so I think we think that God doesn't use everything.

[Shelley]

That's.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

That's what I'm saying.

[Shelley]

Well, we've categorized what he can possibly use as our understanding of what seems important. Instead of saying no God, you know what seems important.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You know, like I'm like low key Pentecostal. Yeah, I know. Cuz I was about to speak in a strong tongue on this, on this podcast, but I held it in. I held it in. I love it. Because God is speaking. Okay.

[Shelley]

He is speaking and He'll I believe. And we've prayed to the end that he'll use every word of what we say for his glory today. So I want to talk to you about a couple other things. I want to talk to you about spiritual disciplines. And I think even what you've been talking about related to going home to your family is part of that. But I also think that you've done a good job in your life. And one of the things I have respected about you is the way that you've built discipline into your structure of your life. And I think I grew up in a Christian family. I've been in church my whole life. So my culture says disciplines must be religiosity. If you do something every day, that's you trying to earn your way back to God. That's you trying to get God to bless you. Cause you're doing the thing I don't believe That I believe that we have confused the two and we have turned discipline, which is needed for our life, into religion so that we can be excused to not do what we need to be doing. I think what you've done is recapture some of the goodness of the disciplines of God and you've enjoyed him in them.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah.

[Shelley]

And what I see in your life is fruit from your discipline.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yes.

[Shelley]

So can you just talk about those whole ideas a little bit?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah. Well, I think without spiritual disciplines, you won't have any relationship.

[Shelley]

Right.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Because we. I think we fundamentally understand that you need discipline to have any type of health in certain areas. Right. So we understand if I want to have a certain kind of body, I need to go to the gym pretty frequently.

[Shelley]

Right.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

If I want to have certain kind of health, I need to eat certain kind of things. If I want to have a degree, I got to go to school pretty often and study.

[Shelley]

Gotta actually show up.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Right. I gotta do the things. But when it comes to God, then there needs to be some type of leisure, some type of. It needs to be like that. That's kind of the mentality. Ridiculous. And so Philippians tells us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in us to will and to work for his good pleasure. I think when we hear work out our salvation, we somehow in our mind, hear, work for.

[Shelley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

But we're working out what God has already worked in us. And so it becomes religious or it becomes legalistic when we are doing spiritual disciplines to prove a thing instead of doing spiritual disciplines to cultivate a thing.

[Shelley]

There you go.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And so I am reading my Bible so that I can love God more, Not to make God love me. He already loves me.

[Shelley]

That's right. And he's not going to love you more because you did anything.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

If you read 5 minutes or 50 minutes, he loves me all the same.

[Shelley]

That's right.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And so my thing is, I know I don't love that man enough.

[Shelley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

So I need to read this thing to understand him, to know him, to honor him. Because I know if I don't get in this, I will drift. I know me. And what I know about me is I need to know more of him so I don't leave him.

[Shelley]

That's right.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I know Jackie. Okay.

[Shelley]

That's right. Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And so I don't.

[Shelley]

And if we're honest, we all are the same as Jackie.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah.

[Shelley]

I mean, we are. I'm not different than you. If I do not cultivate life with him, I will live my life without Him.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And we are so easily deceived that even the little Bible we know, we will latch onto that and think that that is sufficient to carry us for the next year.

[Shelley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And think, oh, no, I'm straight. Like, you know, like, we'll pre. Like, no, I need. I need daily bread.

[Shelley]

That's right.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Right. I don't. I don't pray to God to prove to God that I love him. I pray to God because I need him.

[Shelley]

That's right.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And so I think we have a satisfaction problem. I think we. It's all a matter of motive. Right. And so spiritual disciplines are simply saying, I need you.

[Shelley]

That's right.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I need you. And if Jesus got up and prayed, if Jesus responded to Satan with scripture that was carried and buried in his heart, how much more should we.

[Shelley]

That's it. That's it.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

It's a love thing. It's a love thing. And that's the difference.

[Shelley]

Well, and I think the goal. I think it depends on what your goal is, too. If your goal is to know Scripture, then you will learn Scripture.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah.

[Shelley]

If your goal is to know God through Scripture, to see the revelation of God so that you can know the person of God, then you're starting to develop relational equity. I can't believe this is true of him. It makes me love him so much more. I can't believe that I'm seeing that this is the way he responded. I trust you with more of my life. The goal isn't that we would know. The goal is that we would live with, understand, and be in relationship with. And disciplines do such an incredible job of leading us toward freedom instead of what we think is the inverse of putting, you know, legalism on us, of, this is what you gotta do to know God. God is only trying to help us. He is not laboring us. He is freeing us by giving us a desire for him in ways that just day after day, week after week, year after year. And I love you said the manna thing. I say this a lot about grace, and I think it's really true that part of the problem with grace is that instead of getting the daily dose, we try to get out in front of what God's already done. And now we're in the future living on some future grace that he hasn't yet extended to us. That if I don't get in touch with the fact that his grace is a daily event, that his manna comes every morning, then I am living outside of what he has graced me to be in. And I'm asking Him to bless it. I'm asking him to touch it. I'm asking him to use it. And he's like, wait a second. You weren't even in touch with the fact that I gave you something today. You didn't even need what I had for you today. And now you want me to bless what you're doing? And I just am like, lord, reign us back into here I am today. Whatever you have for me is fresh today. Deliver it to my life so that I can walk in the fullness of what you've called me to today and let me have a grace that's overflowing for other people today because of what you've offered me so kindly this morning. And that's a lot of it.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And I think some of us have probably been a part of institutions that have framed spiritual disciplines in. In such a way that. Where we need mind renewal.

[Shelley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You know, and so we come to. We have this idea of prayer, this idea of community, this idea of Bible reading, even fasting, that it makes us anxious. And so we don't see it as worship. We see it as work. And I would actually pray for God to renew your mind about that. I would confess to God and say, God, I see these things as work.

[Shelley]

That's great.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I don't see it as worthwhile. I don't see it as beautiful. And I would also see that maybe your perspective is also warfare.

[Shelley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

That you need to come against that and cast that down because at the end of the day, it's hindering your intimacy with God.

[Shelley]

Wow.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Right. And so maybe do some work with the Holy Spirit and say, yeah, I. I don't want to pray because I'm anxious that God doesn't love me. I'm anxious that if I don't pray good enough or if I don't fast long enough, or if I don't read perfect enough, if I don't go to the cross references, if I don't get the Greek, if I don't do all the. It's like, it's the. The anxiety is keeping you from God. Yet if you get in the book, the book also says, be anxious for nothing.

[Shelley]

That's right.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You understand what I'm saying? And so cast off those cares when. Where God is like, Martha, Martha, you are anxious for so many things, but only one thing is necessary. And Mary has chosen the good portion.

[Shelley]

That's right.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

All God wants you to do is just. All she did was just sit down at the feet and listen. That's a simple thing. So maybe God, all he wants you to do, just turn on the audiobook while you riding in your car and just listen to him. You ain't even got to listen to no Hebrew. You ain't listen to no Greek. You ain't got to speak no tongues. Just listen. Let him talk to you through the thing. And that's it.

[Shelley]

That's beautiful. I think it reframes so much of what we really need. And I like that you mentioned the warfare thing, because, you know, I think Satan comes at us in a lot of different forms.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Oh, he's a crafty one.

[Shelley]

He is a crafty one. And one of the ways he comes against, I think our spiritual growth is by convincing us, convincing us that we won't do it right anyway. Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

So why?

[Shelley]

He's already won. Why try? Why pray prayers when you don't even know what to say? Why do you show up to God and you know he's not pleased?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I really don't like that dude.

[Shelley]

I don't either.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I do not like stealing, killing and destroying.

[Shelley]

No. He is taking from us the very life that we live and the freedom that has been so kindly offered. And he's just ripping out from underneath us all day long. And we're letting him because we refuse to stand up to what is true. Pronounce the truth to him. Hey, just to let me remind you, and you mentioned this about Jesus. You know, when he was tested in the wilderness, he didn't just use his own words, he used the word of God.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yes, he did.

[Shelley]

He used what God had said to defend himself and the circumstance he found himself in.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yes.

[Shelley]

What do we do? Believe it most of the time. You're probably right. He's not listening. I have no. Yeah, I don't know. You win. Instead of saying no, this is what God has said. Even I'm saying this back to you, Satan, face to face. This is what God says is true of me.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You know why, Shelley? You know why? Tell me why, Jackie. Faith takes hope. Unbelief is a bit more easier, you know, for real. Because when Satan speaks to us, we entertain him because it actually leans more logical. Like. And so if I'm having a conversation in my mind with lies, it actually feels very practical, you know? I mean, if I lost my job and my rent is due, then God isn't going to come through like your rent is due. Like that feels practical. To not trust that God is a provider.

[Shelley]

My circumstances prove that he probably is not.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

So to hope in provision seems foolish.

[Shelley]

That's right.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

So. But it Takes a bit of work to say no, I'm going to open up this book and I'm going to press into the fact that he rained down manna from heaven. It takes hope to say that in Matthew chapter six that like, he feeds the birds of the air who neither sow nor reap. So how much more does he care for you? It takes hope to see that in Genesis 1, and he created the heavens and the earth, therefore nothing is impossible for him. Like. But when you work those texts by the power of the Holy Spirit, hope will develop in you.

[Shelley]

That's it. Yes.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You know what I'm saying? And that's not something you can produce faith coming by hearing and hearing by the word of God. And that's what Satan wants to keep you from.

[Shelley]

That's right.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And so I'm just. I'm validating and affirming that the impracticality of faith. But I'm also saying push against that by getting in those scriptures.

[Shelley]

That's right. And even what you said about the word washing over your life, just listening, just absorbing what God says is true, is so life giving to our bones. Yeah, it is. What we actually need is his truth over us. And I love that you talk about hope. You talked about hope at Passion a lot. It was incredible.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Oh, man.

[Shelley]

But one of the things that I was just reading recently, again in Romans 8, and I can't read Romans enough, Romans is something.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I've been there a lot this season.

[Shelley]

I'm in just. Wow. But it says in there at some point, like 24, 25, something in Romans 8 says, why would you hope for something that you already have

[Jackie Hill Perry]

teach it.

[Shelley]

Why would you hope in something you already have? Hope is for what we have not yet seen. So where we are in a place of lack, that's where hope is alive. Not in the places that we're in that we already are satisfied.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

That's good, right?

[Shelley]

So all the things we already have, God has already delivered to us, they all came from him anyway.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

That's good.

[Shelley]

But he's already done that work. So where I'm required to believe is in the spaces that I haven't yet experienced and into the places I don't have provision for yet. And into the realms that I'm not sure what he's going to do. That's where my faith is the most alive. And I think so many of us are so satisfied with just what he's already done. Maybe we even recognize that he did it and not us. That's awesome. That's A win for God. But what about the spaces we haven't yet seen him activate? What will we do in our lives with those places? And what's going to be stirred to help us believe for those places. And that's where hope is alive.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I had a lot of thoughts, but they got scattered.

[Shelley]

That's all right.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

This morning I was praying through just some difficult stuff that's happening. And I don't necessarily have a strategy for it. And I have a lot of strategies for a lot of things.

[Shelley]

Yes, you do. You teach me a lot about that,

[Jackie Hill Perry]

but I don't have strategies for this.

[Shelley]

Yeah. And what was the Lord saying about that?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Scripture tells me, there you go. That at the end of the day, that all of our trials, all of our circumstances have one ultimate aim, which is to conform us into the image of His Son.

[Shelley]

That's right.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And I think there are some circumstances that are so confounding. And I think it's at that place where our ultimate hope is like God. I don't. I don't really know what you're doing, and I don't even know what to pray. So I'm just ultimately pray that you make me like Jesus. I'm just going to pray that you make me like Jesus. And if you make me like Jesus, then I think I'm praying the right prayer.

[Shelley]

That's right. Believe that.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I think that's a prayer you'll answer.

[Shelley]

Well, I think with two. When we're in. When we're in a tough situation that isn't clear like you're describing, and it doesn't. I know you're a strategist and you have an idea all the time, but I also know that there are so many places in life we have no idea. Literally. If I spent all of the rest of my days trying to come up with what God's doing, I would never figure it out. I do not know. It just is not going to clarify at any point. And I really have watched God take the hardest stuff, visible or invisible, stuff people know about, talking about, stuff people have no idea about. And I've watched him conform me to Jesus's image in those spots in ways that I would never have preferred.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

That's it.

[Shelley]

I would not have prayed for it. I did not want it. But yet I was willing for God to use it.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Why were you willing?

[Shelley]

Because I know the goal is for me to be conformed into his image. And I have a feeling that it's all not going to be pleasant. And so instead of resisting every unpleasant thing Which I think most humans naturally do. If it's hard, I don't want it. I don't want that.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I have the randomness question. I think the podcast. You were random. Let's go. I think the podcaster in me is coming out. Let's go. You podcast girl, when did you become a Christian? And then I have a follow up because it sets the stage for that.

[Shelley]

I became a Christian as a child. I was young, six.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

This is why I'm asking that. Can you trace early situations as a child in your life that prepared you for later situations as an adult?

[Shelley]

Yeah, I do.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

That's interesting to me, how the Lord, I guess, prepares us bit by bit by bit, where it's like he never over. Like he's so kind as a father, where he prepares us over time to deal with stuff. It was very much like Abraham, where Abraham's first trial is to get up, leave the country, and go where God tells him to go. And then he tells him eventually to give up Isaac and da, da, da, da, da. And it's like Isaac was the tri. Like the trial to sacrifice his son is to sacrifice something he loves, which mirrors Isaac's Abraham's first trial, which is to sacrifice something he loves. And so it isn't that Abraham is just hit over the side of his head with something devastating immediately. He had already been prepared for that trial.

[Shelley]

Right.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And so I just. I don't know. I'm fascinated by that idea of how people may be underestimating how God has been preparing them for what they're going through now.

[Shelley]

And I think it goes back to the dark places again.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah.

[Shelley]

That's why I think those hidden dark rooms are so important in our lives, because I think the prep time is so intense, the removal from everything that's visible back to an invisible place. Place. And the preparation that happens in that time period is so intense, it's so elevated. It's so different than when I'm on a plane every day and I'm at a thing every day and everybody's saying how awesome it is. It's so unique that it prepares us in ways we could never fathom. We have no idea what's coming. We couldn't prepare for what's coming if we wanted to because we don't know what it is. So how would we even know how to prepare ourselves? But God knows all that. He's already prepared the way for us, into it and through it. So he knows what we need way more than we know what we need. And so he pulls us back. He hides us. He teaches us. He loves us. He prepares us. He strengthens us. He calls us again. He re. Anoints us. And then he goes, okay, we're gonna walk forward now. And as we walk forward, everything that I've done for you is gonna become visible in what you need. And all of a sudden, you're gonna realize that dark room was the most important thing in my life.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Goodness gracious.

[Shelley]

It wasn't just a setting apart. It wasn't just a calling back. It was a preparation for everything I was about to endure. So that's why when I look at people like you and I'm like, they're willing to go what seems backwards into a place that seems dark. Not that your home is dark, but that you were hidden for a minute away from everything that seems.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And struggling.

[Shelley]

Yeah. Seems applauding and fulfilling. And I think God's like, oh, man, you have no idea what I'm about to do and how I'm preparing you for what that is. And I just testify today that he will deliver. Amen. So whatever is ahead for you, Jackie, is good. And whatever he's going to do in you to get you ready for that is good. And he is conforming you to the image of Christ today. It's what he's doing in your life today. And because you're willing for that to happen, whether it's in the light or in the dark, he's doing that.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I believe that.

[Shelley]

And I believe that he'll use every single bit of it for his glory. He doesn't do anything in your life that's not for his glory. He'll use your life in ways that you could never fathom he would do. He's already done that because I've watched you and I've watched Him do it. And he has so much more to come, and his glory is at stake. And so your life is not unimportant. It's very important, but it's not important for your sake, but for his. Let it be so, Lord.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah.

[Shelley]

Let it be so.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

It's funny how stuff like that used to encourage me. Now it scares me.

[Shelley]

It is scary.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I get morbid about it now.

[Shelley]

No, it's. I don't want you to be morbid.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I want you to be encouraged. But I also die trying to die more. It's true.

[Shelley]

But, gosh, when we look at what God can do with people who are as simple as us, I mean, every day of my life, I am so reminded of what I am made of and how little I have to offer God and yet how much he will take that little bit and make much of it. And it's not so that anybody will think anything better about me or the environment or the ministry, but so that they will think greatly about Him. And that's a miracle today. And so our life is in your hands, God, once again, take whatever this is and use it for your glory. We pray.

[Franchesca Price]

I hope you were taking notes because this episode was jam packed with truth. Shelley and Jackie really covered it all, from spiritual disciplines that cultivate intimacy to learning the strength of being weak, to unpacking what it means to live faithfully for Jesus in both the big and the ordinary moments of life. I love when Jackie let us in on a prayer. She has been praying saying, God, I don't really know what you're doing and I don't even know what to pray. So I just ultimately pray that you make me like Jesus. Jesus make me like Jesus. I want that to be true of me and friend, I want that to be true of you today. Whatever you are walking through, ask God, make me more like Jesus in this. That's where we end our time together today, friends. You can keep up with Jackie Hill Perry on her Instagram Acqui hillperry and listen to her podcast wherever you stream. And while we're at it, don't miss what God is doing at the Grove. You can keep up with us at thegroveonline.com or follow us at PCCThegrove. If you love this show, and we hope you do, please share it with a friend, leave a review or tag us on social we are so glad you leaned into the conversation with us today. Thank you for listening to the Grove Podcast.