478. Endometriosis with Heidi Regan, Sanju Pal and Tulip Siddiq MP

Summary

The Guilty Feminist – Episode 478: Endometriosis

Host: Deborah Frances-White
Guests: Heidi Regan (comedian), Sanju Pal (campaigner), Tulip Siddiq MP (Labour MP), Dr. Rebecca Malik (gynaecologist)
Date: April 13, 2026
Location: Bloomsbury Theatre, London
Theme: Endometriosis – personal stories, legal milestones, campaign for medical and workplace recognition, and advocacy for women’s health

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Overview

In this special episode focusing on endometriosis, Deborah Frances-White is joined by comedian Heidi Regan, campaigner Sanju Pal, MP Tulip Siddiq, and Dr. Rebecca Malik. Together, they tackle the medical, personal, legal, and political realities of endometriosis, a condition that affects 1 in 10 women but is still widely misunderstood and under-recognized. The episode is notable for highlighting a landmark legal case that classifies endometriosis as a potential disability in the UK, powerful personal narratives, and a rallying call for greater awareness and workplace protections. The tone is frank, comedic, and supportive, with an emphasis on lived experience and collective action.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Setting the Scene – Feminist Hypocrisy, Comedy, and The Realities of Gynaecological Health

(Start – 12:07)

• The hosts and audience share “I’m a feminist, but…” confessions, blending humour and honesty about how social expectations around women’s health and behaviour often clash with self-care and feminism (03:51–09:44).
  • Deborah Frances-White: “I’m a feminist, but when I heard Jane Austen was coming off the tenner and being replaced by a hedgehog, I only had one question. Is the hedgehog female?” (03:21)
  • Heidi Regan: “I’m a feminist, but I recently stopped talking mid-conversation because I was worried my level of excitement made my voice sound shrill.” (03:51)
• Laughter and tension breaker before delving into endometriosis; establishes the guilt, silence, and self-surveillance around female pain as “on brand”.

2. Comedy as Advocacy: Heidi Regan’s Endometriosis Stand-Up

(25:44–36:33)

• Heidi condenses her Edinburgh show on endometriosis and fertility into nine powerful minutes, mixing raw honesty about her pain, fainting spells, surgery, infertility, and NHS bureaucracy with her signature humour.
• Notable Quotes:
  • Heidi: “The NHS is like a long, dull video game where every level you have to defeat another mini-boss. And those mini-bosses are usually an email that never gets answered or a phone number that doesn’t connect.” (27:53)
  • On her diagnosis: “Doctor said: ‘Describe the pain.’ I said, ‘It’s your classic fist of God, right up the butt.’” (29:15)
  • “The moral of this story is, if you want a second opinion from a male doctor, just cry. I think it’s feminism.” (33:52)
• Stand-up brings out the normalization of pain, embarrassment, and how avoidance or self-silencing delays treatment.

3. Shonju Pal’s Landmark Legal Battle

(37:25–51:14)
Her Story:

• Sanju was diagnosed with severe endometriosis (with “chocolate cysts,” or endometriomas), was dismissed by her employer after 10 years for “poor performance” following surgery.
• Her dismissal under Accenture’s “up or out” policy led to a six-year legal battle (2019–2026) both for unfair dismissal and for endometriosis to be recognized under the Equality Act as a disability.
  • Sanju Pal: “I was running Rise as a side hustle, I cared so much about getting back to work…thought Accenture were being supportive, but three months later, I was given a letter inviting me to a meeting where I was told I may be at risk of dismissal for poor performance.” (41:30)
  • “I thought the day I leave Accenture, there’d be a fanfare…Instead, I had to literally walk out the door in complete humiliation. And shame.” (43:34)

Legal Milestones:

• Despite the tribunal initially awarding no compensation (a “Polkey reduction”), Sanju won her appeal:
  • “The tribunal, that’s equivalent to the High Court, said hang on a second, there was no evidence to demonstrate I’d have been dismissed anyway… And, most importantly, yes, endometriosis can be and should be considered a disability under the Equality Act.” (48:10)
• Deborah: “That is a real landmark thing that you’ve done…It’s really brought to the fore how many women will have been treated and thought that they had no recourse.”

4. Political Action: Tulip Siddiq MP and the Need for Ongoing Advocacy

(51:22–55:56)

• Tulip Siddiq emphasizes the importance of using her platform to raise stories like Sanju’s in Parliament and push for systemic change:
  • “Listening to her story got me more and more angry…because it was like women not being seen and not being heard and dismissed when they had health conditions they can do nothing about.” (52:22)
  • “The last data we had—which says one in 10 women in the UK suffer from this health condition—is from 2009. … If we don’t have the correct data, we won’t be able to do anything in terms of making reasonable adjustments or passing legislation.” (55:15)
• Calls for updated research and for DWP assessors and employers to recognize endometriosis as a reason for receiving workplace adaptations and benefits.

5. Societal, Medical, and Cultural Challenges

(57:47–66:33)

• Multiple women described misdiagnosis, “putting up with” pain, and stigmatization, especially in ethnic minority communities.
  • Tulip: “There is something about...I just never knew the words menopause, endometriosis…Why did I never hear the symptoms? And I do think there is a lot of stigma attached to menstrual health…I don’t want young women to grow up in the way I did where you…never discuss it with your brother or your dad.” (61:17)
• The mental toll and loneliness of chronic illness is highlighted by both guests and audience.

6. Audience Q&A:

(76:34–93:01)

• Questions center on workplace adjustments, diagnosis, recurrence, advocacy, and the emotional impact.
• Dr. Rebecca Malik:
  • “One in six women with endometriosis are pushed out of the workplace…There are some horrific stats around the number of women overlooked for promotion or who lose out on income because of their condition.” (58:27)
  • “[Employers] need to have a capability process, not a misconduct [or disciplinary]…and reasonable adjustment is the legal duty.” (78:50)
  • “Even just simple things like access to going to the toilet, being able to…basic things you would expect an employer to know by now.” (82:57)
• Education in schools, quicker referrals, and national funding are repeatedly flagged as vital.

7. Ongoing Battle: Appeal and Collective Action

(71:18–74:40)

• Sanju received news during the episode that Accenture is appealing to the Court of Appeal, dragging her into further litigation, risking her financial stability against a multinational corporation.
• She calls for pro bono legal support and public solidarity and emphasizes the importance of mass petition and crowdfunded legal defense.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Heidi Regan: “Every month the pain would hit and I would think, 'this is the worst pain I’ve ever felt,'…Fool me 100 times, shame on you. Fool me 101, shame on me.” (28:31)
• Sanju Pal: “I’m one woman from very humble beginnings on a council estate in Camden…They couldn’t take me back…And not just that, they couldn’t just let it go. They’ve carried on with these legal proceedings and character assassination.” (65:39)
• Tulip Siddiq: “You would have changed the lives of thousands of women you will never meet. Try and remember that—it does get you through dark patches.” (68:25)
• Dr. Rebecca Malik: “We still don’t know what causes endometriosis. If cis men got it, we would know by now. That’s what I think.” (88:17)
• Deborah Frances-White: “How can you advocate from your corner? That’s how you hold power.” (90:00)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• “I’m a feminist, but…” Confessions and Discussion: 03:51–12:07
• Comedy Set – Heidi Regan: 25:44–36:33
• Sanju Pal’s Story and Legal Case: 37:25–51:14
• Tulip Siddiq on Parliamentary Campaign: 51:22–55:56
• Discussion on Cultural Stigma and Minority Community Experiences: 61:17–62:03
• Audience Q&A (workplace adaptation, diagnosis, recurrence, self-advocacy): 76:34–93:01
• Call to Collective Action, Petition, and Crowdfunding: 95:19–97:37

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Action Items and How to Support

• Sign/share the petition to make gynaecological health conditions part of the legal definition of disability (find via "Sanju Pal Crowdjustice", 97:23).
• Donate to Sanju Pal’s CrowdJustice campaign, especially as she faces a costly appeal against Accenture (95:19).
• Contact your MP about endometriosis in the workplace and women’s health policy (74:40).
• Raise awareness through conversation, comedy, joining/starting advocacy groups, and sharing resources.

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Conclusion

This thoughtful, honest, and often laugh-out-loud episode boldly addresses endometriosis through personal testimony, comedy, legal challenge, and a call for social and political action. Listeners come away with a sense of community and urgency—change is both vital and possible, but requires public solidarity, sustained political pressure, and continued breaking of taboos around women’s pain.

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Transcript

[Deborah Frances-White]

Get the ice cream love big freezer.

[Dr. Rebecca Malik]

It's by the peas.

[Sean Ju Pal]

Some things are really best not to put off, like defrosting the freezer or if you're a landlord, sending a copy of the new Government Information Sheet to your existing tenants. You must do this by 31 May or risk a fine. Make sure you're up to date with the new laws. Find the information [e-mail] rentingischanging hello guilty feminists.

[Deborah Frances-White]

I want to talk about something that half the population experiences and the other half should probably understand better gynecological health. Because so many of us grew up with patchy information, some pretty weird myths and general feeling that we should probably just not talk about it. That's why I'm delighted to tell you about Bloody Powerful the Taboo Busting Guide to Periods, Menopause and Everything in between by Dr. Brook van der Molen, illustrated by Hazel Mead and published by Cambridge University Press. This book is a warm, clear and genuinely empowering guide to everything you probably didn't get taught in school, from understanding your periods to navigating menopause and all the confusing questions in between. Dr. Brooke van der Molen is a practicing gynaecology doctor. You might know her online as the OB GYN mum and she answers so many of the questions we've all quite quietly googled at 2am it's also beautifully illustrated by Hazel Mead, which makes the whole thing feel accessible rather than clinical. If you'd like to learn more or give it to someone who deserves better information about their body, visit cambridge.org bloodypowerful and you can get 20% off with the code bloodypowerful20 at checkout. Because knowledge about our bodies shouldn't be taboo, it should be bloody powerful. Hello guilty Feminists, this is Deborah. Very exciting news. We are doing a very exciting show in London with the Nerve News, who provide a brilliant journalist service. Carol Cadwalader from the Nerve News is coming on to talk about the Epstein files and many of you will know her. Journalists on this has been peerless. She is bringing on Lucia Osborne Crowley, who has written widely about the survivors, many of whom she knows personally, and her books include My Body Keeps yous Secrets and the Lasting Witnessing the Trial of Ghislaine Maxwell. This is a show not to be missed. It will be on the 30th of April at Leicester Square Theatre. If you would like to see more about these and other shows, go to guiltyfeminist.com and click on Live shows. Get your tickets now before they all go. I'M a feminist. But when I found out that Jane Austen was coming off the banknote and instead a hedgehog was going on. Because that's what's happening in our country. All of the public figures are coming off the banknotes. Winston Churchill, Jane Austen, whoever, and instead they're putting on woodland creatures. Some people have called this woke. I don't see how a badger is woke. I don't understand it. They change them every 10 years. They change them every 10 years. Winston Churchill's only been on for 10 years. You can imagine what the reform voters are saying about it's the women who forced Winston Churchill. No, he's only been there for 10 years and his family have come out and said, we only expected him to be on there for 10 years. No one's on for longer. We're fine with it. This isn't woke. There's nothing wrong with it and it wouldn't matter if it were. But when I heard that Jane Austen was coming off the tenor and being replaced by a hedgehog, I only had one question. Is the hedgehog female?

[Heidi Regan]

I'm a feminist, but I recently stopped talking mid conversation because I was worried that my levels of excitement was making my voice sound shrill. I self silenced myself. So sad. Have I gotten too harsh? Have I made you sad?

[Deborah Frances-White]

You self silenced yourself because you've considered yourself shrill.

[Heidi Regan]

Yeah. I was like, calm down, Heidi. No one needs to hear this. Wow, have I misunderstood the brief? Are we meant to make it fun?

[Deborah Frances-White]

No, no. You just sound like David Cameron talking to a woman. You know when he says that's what

[Heidi Regan]

I try to embody.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Calm down, dear. Yeah, you self censor. Did you then? And this is the thing that I find funny, that when I do something like that, I then I'm a feminist, but then I beat myself up for having been patriarchal and internalized misogyny. Yes. So that's a kind of double whammy. Then. I judge myself for my own and then feel worse about myself.

[Heidi Regan]

I gave myself a real talking to

[Sean Ju Pal]

when I got home.

[Heidi Regan]

Don't worry, I was very sad.

[Deborah Frances-White]

I'm a feminist, but I've definitely said I'm fine while internally thinking, I suspect I'm dying. I am definitely dying. It's clear to me I'm dying. But I must not complain.

[Heidi Regan]

I feel that's very on brand for tonight's.

[Deborah Frances-White]

It's very on brand.

[Sean Ju Pal]

Yeah.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yeah, it's very on brand. Yeah.

[Heidi Regan]

I'm a feminist and a lesbian, but thank you. Yes. The end. Need to come back up after the Last one. I'm feminist and lesbian, but I was recently at a party where a door got jammed and a man had to kick it open with his foot. And it was one of the most arousing things I've seen in a long time, and I'm not sure why.

[Dr. Rebecca Malik]

Wow.

[Heidi Regan]

And I gave myself a talking to.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Was the talking too arousing at this point?

[Heidi Regan]

It was very arousing.

[Deborah Frances-White]

I've. I've had a moment like that where.

[Heidi Regan]

So you had to kick down the door?

[Deborah Frances-White]

No, but I saw. I mean, this person is like a brother to me, so this didn't. But I saw you what the story is, some of you will know that my husband and I, about eight years ago, someone who we met as a Syrian refugee who didn't have at that time anywhere to live, just came and minded our cats while we were on holidays. Anyway, long story short, he still lives with us. And early, very early on, because he was in the Calais Jungle refugee camp, he was the firefighter because it's all made of wood. The only source of heat or to cooking is a fire. So often it. There'd be fires, so he would have to sleep in his fireman's outfit and he would have to. Someone would bang on the thing and say, there's a fire. And he would jump on the top of his little shelter and then he would see where the smoke was coming from. Then he'd get in his little fire truck. We're saying little, I mean, big fire, you know, medium sized fire truck. And he would zoom around and then they'd make fire breaks and they'd do what they could with the water they had and all of that sort of stuff. He's very tall, handsome Syrian man and very charismatic. And one time, very early on when he was staying with us, I said, you should come to hot yoga with me. It's really good. You know, he had a lot of, you know, injuries and things from the journey. And so I said, yoga is really good. And so he started coming to yoga with me. We went to hot yoga together. And we were in this hot yoga class. And above us it was all like infrared, these infrared packs or something to make the room hot. And one of them burst into flames. And all of the. I mean, the yoga teacher, and this is a North London yoga class, the yoga teacher just screamed and went, ah, I don't know what to do. And she ran out of the class to get somebody leaving us in a burning, already overly hot yoga class. And people just ran from the fire to the wind. And Steve, he just, Steven, he just so casually. Because fire was, you know, he put out a lot of proper, real fires that have really burnt people. And this was like a fire in a ceiling in a North London yoga class. He was so casual about it and he just, he was right underneath it and he just said to someone, there was a towel there and he just said, can I use this towel? And they went, yeah, this woman, yeah. And he just picked up the towel, put it round his fist, really casual, like super, super casual. And then he leapt to the ceiling and punched the fire in the face and put it out with one punch and just landed. Gave the towel back to the person, went back into downward facing dog. And everyone in that room, like there were proper straight men in that room because straight men do go to yoga, hot yoga, they don't go to regular yoga, but they go to hot yoga because it feels like manly, doesn't it? And go sweat. Everybody in that room just went like it was. There was a sort of. For me, I was just like proud of him as my brother, sort of. But everyone else, I could see, they just went. There is something about somebody kicking open a door in an emergency or punching a fire in the face. Yeah, that is.

[Heidi Regan]

It's very primal and very sexy.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Did it make you think you might be bisexual?

[Heidi Regan]

I am kind of bisexual. So, yeah, I wasn't questioning things, I was just going, what a great show.

[Deborah Frances-White]

I'm a feminist, but if a man says he has a headache, I'm like, take the day off. And if I'm hemorrhaging, I'm like, I can still make that.

[Heidi Regan]

3:00pm I get very on brand, yes,

[Deborah Frances-White]

very on brand for the show.

[Heidi Regan]

I'm a feminist, but for some reason I seem to have about 80% of my friends now, men. And I've realized recently about 80% of my day to day conversations are about men's mental health. And like, it's ironic, but it's happening so much. I'm like, I think I'm just starting to think like this now. So that's my life now. They're lovely boys, but I'd love some feminine input in my life or to talk about my mental health.

[Deborah Frances-White]

I can certainly call you at 8am every morning and tell you what's going on inside my brain. If you feel it would balance the day out.

[Heidi Regan]

Let's try it for a week and then see how I feel.

[Deborah Frances-White]

She's not answering that phone. You just know that correctly. Live from the Bloomsbury Theatre in London, the spontaneity Shop presents the Guilty Feminist. With me, Deborah Frances White, guest co host Heidi Regan, and our very special guests, seanju Paul and Shulem Siddiq, talking about endometriosis. Hello. Hello, hello, hello, hello. Hi. How lovely to see so many of you. This show sold out really, really quickly, implying to me that a lot of people here have endometriosis. Is that the case? Yeah, I feel like. Because as soon as we said it was an endometriosis show, every ticket sold and I was like, wow, wow. We've done shows on endometriosis before, but this is a really special one because there has been a landmark case and there's also just been a debate in Parliament. Very, very important things are going on. So we're very excited to have you. Just give us a cheer if you've been to the Guilty Feminist before. Give us a cheer if you listen to the Guilty Feminist at home. Give us a cheer if you don't know what you're at. Just one person. Have you been brought by a friend? Yes. Why? Did they tell you to come? Ah, I see, I see. So you're here. You are here specifically to see endometriosis. That won't happen for a little while. There's a few things first. But welcome if you don't know what you're at. This is a podcast recording and so we are recording this. This will go out onto the Internet. So if you do a laugh, you can hear it later. You can be like, oh, my God, that's my laugh. If you ask a question in the Q and A portion, you'll be able to, oh, my God, that's me talking into the microphone. So it's well worth laughing for that reason, just for your own posterity when, you know, many years from now, 100 years from now, somebody, your great granddaughter will be going, I think that's great. Granny's laugh at the Bloomsbury Theatre. I think she's asked a question about endometriosis. Of course, that's all long gone now. That's been completely cured

[Tulip Siddiq]

as well as.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Gosh, that's really come home to some people, hasn't it? Yes, and it's completely cured. On the downside, I am living on a raft in the middle of the ocean with an AI assistant, but other than that, haven't seen another human being for 40 years. But apart from that, things are going really, really well for me. Listen, we don't know what's going to happen, but we change what we can as we can, and I'm feeling quite hopeful at the moment, because I went on the march on Saturday, the Together Alliance March. Did anyone come to the march? It was a really amazing time and it really made me feel that there were so many people in this country that want it to be fairer and kinder and more representative. And it was. It was a march, if you don't know about it was called the Together Alliance March. And you could be anybody, you could be an individual, you could be the Boy Scouts, you could be a church group, you could be a feminist group, you could be an activist group. The only thing you had to agree on was that we do not want the far right taking over our country, bringing bigotry, turning the clock back 60 years, making it a great place for billionaires and a terrible place for everybody else. And we marched together and it was just really, really beautiful. Walking through parts of London, you can normally only drive and I didn't see any. I think the fascists didn't really dare come out because there was half a million of us. In the end, it did take us two. We were standing for two and a half hours before we were allowed to take off. So that's the only thing. If you do have endometriosis, that might have been a bit outside your skill set. So you had to go and have a little coffee. We ended up having a little coffee, but in a place where we could see the march so that when it started going, we could just run out and be like, we're marching, we're marching, we're marching. We didn't stop for coffee. We are not fair weather feminists. I didn't just have a bunch of. But it was Park Lane as well, because that's where it started. It's not like we're fancy marches. That is where it started. We were told our particular group had to stand out the front of what was the really fancy hotel on Park Lane. Dorchester. That's right. We had to. I don't even know what. I'm so down to earth. I've never been in such an establishment. I stood there with my eyes open, looking up. There were wealthy people coming out onto the balcony to look down at us going, this is not what we were promised. A lot of chanting and chanting and dissatisfied poor people down there. We're up here. But this is why you have the balcony. As a 1 percenter, you have the balcony so that you can look down and say, thank God I'm not there. Waiting two and a half hours without a bunch of. To take off. But once we took off, it was Still a great feel. It felt like a bit of a street party. And then once we took off and we marched all the way to Trafalgar Square and, you know, the, of course, double advantage of getting my steps in and it was really, really, really wonderful. So if you haven't joined this time, but you'd like to come another time, it really. I think the Together alliance is the best march you could go on because it feels so inclusive and everybody's there with their own feelings and agendas. But that's the one thing that we felt so united. And I do feel like now is the time when we need to come together and we need to say we can disagree on lots of things or we can have lots of different focuses or, you know, our feelings about something. We might be working on our thing, someone else is working on their thing. That's not our priority. This is our priority. But the one thing we can agree on is that our country will not be workable or livable, and our globe will not be workable or livable if we let the far right sweep through it and take away everything that is kind and compassionate and fair and connected, that it'll become a disconnected place. So I really recommend. We're doing all these shows. This one isn't one of these, but we're doing all these shows called under the banner of the Road to Gilead, because I think that's what we're on unless we make a U turn. So, unfortunately, this is a bit of an I'm a feminist, but I'm a feminist. But at the Together alliance march, I decided, because my podcast is called the Guilty Feminist, the project we're doing is called the Road to Gilead. I. I thought and I wanted, you know, I told people I was going to be there. So I thought I need to have a big, properly printed sign by Pronto Print that on one side says Guilty Feminist, the other side says Road to Gilead. So people say, oh, that's who we're looking for. So off I said to my husband, who does some design, could you make me a sign that on one side says, let's get off the road to Gilead? And on the other side says, like the Guilty Fellows logo and says, we stand together against the far right forever. And he said, yeah, absolutely, I can do that. He sends that off to Pronto Print. On the morning down I go to Pronto Print. And what I'd said is, I said, we might as well use the Road to Gilead logo because then people will recognize that which is a sort of red logo that's got a sort of, you know, Gileadi type figure in it. So I said, use the logo. So just, you know, let's get off the road to Gilead. When I get to the printer, the printer, I said, have you done my son? He says, yeah. And he looks at me and I look at the sign and I realize the sign is a big white sign that says in big black and white letters, let's get off. And then underneath there's a sort of rather understated logo. It's a little bit hard to read because it's kind of red and black. And I went, okay, great. And I went to the march with this on a stick and when I held it up, all anyone could see was other people going down with the far right. More fairness, equality, men of quality, don't fear equality, et cetera, et cetera. Choose love and mine, which just said, let's get off. And my great friend Susan McComber, who many of you will know from this show and other brilliant TV shows and things, just. I sent her just a picture of it and she just sent back a WhatsApp saying, Looks very much like you're scouting for woke coiters. Two birds, eh? Two birds. All right, I think it's probably time to start the show. Before we do, I'm just going to say cheer. If you think you've got a very feminist job or some kind of side hustle. Side hustle? It could be a charitable action. That's not a side hustle, is it? So sorry to call your foundation a side hustle. Worked really hard on setting that up. You're the founder. This is awful. If you've got. Do you think you do a feminist thing, give us a cheer. If you think you have an unfeminist job, give us a cheer. Excellent. I'm more interested in those, to be honest. Who's got a non feminist job? You have. Great. What did you do? You sell makeup. Is there any. Somebody here is saying, that is not unfeminist. That is my armor. She had a very strong reaction to that. She went, that is not unfeminist. You sell makeup. Do you do any Trojan horse feminism within that job? What's the Trojan horse? Feminism. I try to make it more interesting than just selling mascara to 14 year olds. I try to make it more interesting than just selling mascara to 14 year olds. Go on. Do you talk to them about how they don't really need makeup to be beautiful, do you? All beauty brands do that and don't mean it. All beauty brands do that and don't mean it. That's true. But do you subtly say, I was once having one of those, you know, those high street. I've never had anything cut or anything like that, but sometimes I go and ask someone to provoke my collagen with a laser or something. And once there was a woman doing some kind of, you know, some kind of sonar treatment to make me look younger. And I was saying, you, sometimes I feel this is, you know, I shouldn't really do this. They're not very feminist. And she was like, why? Everybody would look younger if they could. And I said, no, they wouldn't. I was like, real feminists don't want to look younger. They want to look the age they are. And she was like, surely that's not true. I was in so much pain as she was lasering my face, as I was arguing with her that what we were doing was fundamentally unfeminist. And I was like, I have never known such hypocrisy in myself. I've paid a woman to torture me so I can explain to her why she's not a very good feminist. Anybody else got a non feminist job?

[Heidi Regan]

Yes.

[Deborah Frances-White]

What's yours? You're a makeup artist. See, again, I feel like you're doing a public service again. Again. What, what are your feelings on makeup?

[Sean Ju Pal]

If you enjoy doing it, you should do it for yourself.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yeah, I kind of think it's creative. You can play. Sometimes I feel so sorry for just like sister in a straight mental, because they wake up in the morning, look in the mirror and think, well, that's as good as I'm going to look all day. That's their reality. They can't do anything. Or people go, ew, are you wearing makeup? Whereas we can conceal, we can reveal, we can play, we can glitter, we can sparkle. I don't understand why the patriarchy let us have it. They normally steal all the good stuff. It's just weird. And, you know, when I found this out, it made a lot of sense. Men and women both used to wear makeup and then it went out of fashion for men and they never took it up again. It also went out of fashion for women in this country. It was Queen Victoria who said it wasn't seemly. I think she was in mourning and she didn't want anyone else having any fun. And then she went up to Balmoral for ages and no one was wearing makeup. And then some women just went, she's been up there for a long time, hasn't she. I don't know that she's coming back. Do you think it would be all right to have a bit of concealer and just a sending. What kind of lip gloss? I don't think she's going to notice. She's very sad. And women took it up again and men didn't take it up. So I say, listen, anything that we've got, we've grasped in our hands. Clawed away from the patriarchy. That's quite fun. Have it. Of course, if you don't want it, then don't use it. It's a waste of time and money. Anyone got a feminist job they want to tell us about? Yes. What's yours? Oh, hold on, I'm just going to bring you a. Because that sounds like something I'm going to find it hard to repeat. I work in makeup. Is it easy? But you. You take this mic.

[Sean Ju Pal]

I work with the erotic literatures of ancient India to understand and teach women's pleasure.

[Deborah Frances-White]

We have a winner. We need no more candidates. You work with erotic. Erotic Indian Literature for Women's Pleasure. Would you be interested in coming on the show sometime and teaching us what you know? Absolutely. Great. Excellent. Excellent. So maybe we can have a little chat in the. Do we have an interval? Yeah, we do. Is that. But was that someone from the show? Felt like an audience member. Just went, well, I'll need one. Did you not hear? We've all got endometriosis. There will be a fucking interval, even if we have to riot to get one.

[Heidi Regan]

Yes.

[Deborah Frances-White]

If you haven't factored one in, get one going. Fair enough. Venue. There will be an interval. I'm not sure if it's been scheduled. I think it has. I think it has. All right. And on that note, I must bring on for you my incredible co pilot for this evening. She's one of this country's most wonderful comedians. She's also a really lovely, lovely human being. Paul, put your hands together and make incredible woohooing noises for the wonderful Heidi Reagan. How are you, Heidi?

[Heidi Regan]

I'm good, thank you. Lovely to be here. Very excited.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Delighted to have you. And you did a brilliant show on endometriosis, didn't you?

[Heidi Regan]

I did. It was a show and, yeah, definitely brilliant. Thank you for confirming. Yes. At Edinburgh last year, you always have

[Deborah Frances-White]

such an interesting, offbeat, very funny style about you. I think you're totally unique as a comic because no one thinks like you. You've got a very lateral thought process and a very, like, considered delivery as well. I just love watching you work and I love, you know, no one else would think of the things that you think of.

[Heidi Regan]

No one else has ever thought of endometriosis. And I. Yeah, it is. I usually do shows about like shark films or the Matrix and that. And then this one was my most. Just this is a thing that happened. But it was really, really good to do.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yeah, I'm, I'm so delighted. And we will be hearing a bit of stand up from you from it. So, yes, I'm very excited. This is the Guilty Feminist, the podcast in which we explore our noble goals as 21st century feminists and the hypocrisies and insecurities which undermine them. Don't feel as many people joined in as usual. Some people may not know it. I got the feeling you didn't know it. I don't mean to impose gender on you, but are you in fact a man? I don't want to. Yeah. Okay. So when I say hypocrisy, insecurities, you say and I say which? And then you go undermine them. Okay, you got that. Have you been forced to come here tonight or was it free will? Free will, great. We're big on consent here, sir. Okay, ready? This is the Guilty Feminist, the podcast in which we explore our noble goals as 21st century feminists and the hypocrisies and insecurities which undermine them. I'm Deborah Frances White, with me is Heidi Regan. And we are talking about a landmark ruling on endometriosis, especially in the workplace. So we're very, very excited to present this endometriosis special edition of the Guilty Feminist today. First of all, before we get into it, would you like to see some startup comedy? Then please welcome to the stage the incredible Heidi Regan. Hello.

[Heidi Regan]

And on the stage. Thank you. So, as Deborah said, I did an hour long show in Edinburgh last year about endometriosis and fertility and other things. It was very nuanced, layered hour. I've tried to cram it down into nine minutes of standup for you tonight. I think I've kept the nuance, but if you can all just kind of assume that I've already built a huge rapport with you so we can just get straight into the good stuff, that'll be great. So, yeah, the story I told in the show, it kind of starts with me very dramatically waking up in the middle of the night in agony and I get up to go to the bathroom, but I start to faint. So I lie down on the floor and I realize I can't get up and I think I'm gonna have to wake up my wife. But I'm scared to wake her. Not cause she's an ogre or anything, she's a lovely lady. The reason I'm scared to wake her is I know what the pain is and I've been saying I'm gonna go see a doctor about it for about three months. About three months and 10 years. Let's go around the wrong way. The pain is endometriosis. It's a big reveal in the hour long show, but I think we've got, you know what's coming and it's endometriosis. Everyone here knows what it is. But for anyone who's feeling a bit in the dark, I'll explain it so that the experts we've got tonight can then correct all my mistakes later. So endo is. I shorten it to endo because I'm Australian and in Australia we are annoying. So endo is, as I understand it, where the lining of the uterus, we call it a uterosa. Sometimes we lengthen. If we don't shorten, we lengthen. So the lining on the inside of the uterusa can sometimes grow on the outside and other things. And it can present in many different ways. For me, the main symptom I would get is it would wake me up in the middle of the night with a pain that felt like. This is how I described it to the doctor or people on the bus if they look like they want to have a chat. I said it felt like there was a fist going right up my butt. But not a fun fist, more a giant fist, like the fist of God. It was like God was trying to use me as a puppet, but not to spread the gospel, to make the puppet go, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow. That's how I explained it to the doctor. And when it woke me up like that, the only way I could get rid of the pain was to go to the toilet. But sometimes the pain was so bad I would faint. And that was what had happened this night. And I couldn't get up off the floor. So I woke up my wife, who was very caring and worried. She came and helped me. And what happened next, I'm not proud to tell you this, my wife had to hold me on the toilet. So I didn't faint while I went to the toilet looking her dead in the eyes, saying, this is the worst Valentine's Day we've ever had. It was our anniversary or something. The reason I hadn't got around to going to the doctor wasn't because I was like scared or lazy or anything. I think it was because I think I'm an optimist. Every month the pain would hit and I would think, this is the worst pain I've ever felt. And it's worse than last month. And then the next day it would go away and I go, well, thank God that's over. I'm sure that will never happen again. Fool me 100 times, shame on you. Fool me 101 time, shame on me. But there was something about sitting there while my wife held me on the toilet, while I. I won't say if it was a number one or two, let's keep some mystique. But something about that, that didn't feel right with me. I'm a bit of a princess like that. But it felt like a wake up call. So I took that wake up call and a mere six months later, I called the doctor. Doctor said, describe the pain. I said, it's your classic fist of God, right up the butt. Using me like a puppet not to spread the gospel, make the puppet go out, out, out. And the doctor said, say no more, please, please stop talking. And she said, that sounds awful. I'll book you in for an operation. I was like, just on the phone like that. I was so shocked. I don't know if anyone here has ever had, like long term care on the nhs, but in my experience, the NHS is like a long, dull video game where every level you have to defeat another mini boss. And those mini bosses are usually an email that never gets answered or a phone number that doesn't seem connected. Or two admin staff saying, one of us always lies and one of us always tells the truth. You must figure out which is which. But in this case, it just worked so amazing. Six months later, my wife says, did they give you a date for this operation? I said, no. And she said, maybe you should call and check. And I said, I don't want to be like a dork. I want to be one of their cool patients. Where they're like, is it nice that Heidi doesn't hassle us like the others? They're like, just leaves us to it. But I was like, okay, I'll give him a call. They said, we have no record of your call. And I was like, well played. This is the nhs. I know. They were like, oh, you think you got an operation? You must have called on opposites day. A lot of patients fall for that on that day. Everything we say is the opposite. But this is kind of why what I struggle with the most with the NHS is that it's this wonderful thing, but you have to push for everything, you have to hassle and you have to get angry. And I'm a people pleaser and. And on top of that, my wife's a doctor, so I was very aware how completely overwhelmed all the staff were, how they're the only thing holding up. So I'd sit there going, in the midst of all this chaos, I'm going to go in there and go, you guys are crumbling. Can you fix my tummy, please? I know it's not like that, but that's what it felt at the time. But anyway, they booked me in for the operation again, or for the first time, depending whose side you're on. And then six months later I had the operation. In my hour long show, there is now a 25 minute bit about the operation. It was the reason I told the show because I thought it was hilarious, that I wanted to be more empowered when I went there and less of a people pleaser. And the way I did that was I kept requesting morphine in the recovery period. And the male nurse said to me, I don't think you want more morphine. Usually people don't have this much. Maybe you've got a low pain threshold. And I was like, believe women, sir? Demanded Morpheus in my life should not have believed women. I had way too much morphine. They had to keep me in while I vomited my guts up overnight. I thought it was hilarious. I was like, I'm going to write a whole hour show about this. I've given you the. Anyway, so got out of there. And then a few months later, I go to meet the final boss, the head gynecologist, who tells you what they found. Very nice man. And he said to me, so when we opened you up, this is what we found. So because you didn't get this treated for 10 years because you're so brave, my word's not his. But I read between the lines and he said, because this hasn't been treated for 10 years, because you're so brave, it's progressed to stage four endometriosis and some of your organs are stuck together. And I said, that sounds good. I don't want them all loosey goosey in there, Please keep them inside, please. And he said, usually we would operate, but I'm worried that I could stab your bowel. And I was like, you need to work on your confidence or maybe impulse control, I'm not sure. And he said, I'm thinking a different plan. Hysterectomy what are your fertility plans? And to his surprise and mine, I burst into tears. It wasn't his fault. It was a bad time. We were like, we'd done failed ivf. We were going through a breakup. I was feeling shame that I hadn't gone in for 10 years and not looked after. Chase us up and all that. And it all kind of came to a head on this poor man who was very much freaking out as I blubbered in front of him. I don't think he'd seen many patients cry like that. So he just immediately started to go,

[Tulip Siddiq]

no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[Heidi Regan]

Which then freaked me out. And I'm like, I'm sorry, no, this has been a bad time as well. And he's just going, no, no, no. And eventually I get over it quicker than him. I start to comfort him, and I'm like, sorry, it was just surprise, but please, yes, if you need to do a hysterectomy, that's fine. And then he said, no, I don't think I want to do that. And I started going, no, no, please take my womb. He's like, no, no, no, no, no, you must. Please, you must. And then he said, no, I've come up with a plan B, which I don't think he would have done if I hadn't cried. So the moral of this story is, if you want a second opinion to get a man to do something, just cry. I think it's feminism. Thank you. Yes, I'm a feminist. So he said, I've got a plan B. And he said, I want to halt the endometriosis for one year by injecting you with kind of fake menopause before you'd actually get menopause. Like a try before you buy situation. And that's what we're going to do with these injections. It is so hard to not sound like a conspiracy theorist when I say the government is injecting me with menopause, especially when I shout it from above. So, yeah, basically, I just finished two years of that. I'm back off the menopause and menopause. Awful, fake menopause. I'm going to say, quite a delight, actually. It was. I can. I'll take questions. I can't explain it in detail now, but if anyone wants a recommendation, I'd say these are my three messages from the show. If you want something, a Second opinion from Dr. Ball, cry, don't have too much morphine, even though you think it's going to be a lovely treat. And fake menopause. I say go for it. You must try it. But, yeah, that's an hour condensed into nine minutes. I hope you enjoyed it. Thank you.

[Deborah Frances-White]

That was brilliant. Are you going to do the full hour again?

[Heidi Regan]

I'm not sure. Like, a lot of it was very personal that I kind of don't want to keep doing.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Got a bit much. This audience would come back next Monday to hear the whole hour.

[Tulip Siddiq]

Yeah.

[Heidi Regan]

If I do, I will let you know, so. But you'll have to follow me to know, so.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yeah. I don't know if you've got a mailing list.

[Tulip Siddiq]

I do.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Excellent. Well, we can advertise that and you can. Yeah, people can sign up and then maybe you can just do it just for these people.

[Sean Ju Pal]

Done.

[Heidi Regan]

Yeah, that'd be lovely.

[Deborah Frances-White]

I mean, you could invite other people too. That's not.

[Heidi Regan]

I only want people who've seen 10 minutes of it condensed and then, you know, be like, I know what's coming.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yeah. Yes, exactly. But I think they will enjoy it just as much.

[Heidi Regan]

This episode is brought to you by Prime Obsession is in session.

[Tulip Siddiq]

And this summer, Prime Originals have everything you want.

[Heidi Regan]

Steamy romances, irresistible love stories and the book to screen favorites you've already read twice off campus. Elle every year after the Love Hypothesis,

[Tulip Siddiq]

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[Heidi Regan]

chances, chemistry you can feel through the screen.

[Tulip Siddiq]

Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Our first guest today won the Asian Women of Achievement Award and received the Prime Minister's Points of Light Award. And at the same time, she was working for a global management consultancy firm when she was diagnosed with endometriosis, had to have urgent surgery, following which she was sacked. She won her action against the firm for unfair dismissal and since is campaigning for endometriosis to be recognised as a disability. Please welcome to the stage Sean Ju Pal. Now, can we just explain this does not look very disability friendly and I was against the whole thing, but Shonju asked because for you to see us, we have to be on stools and because of Shonju's back, she said no, I'd prefer to stand, but I've got. I can have a low chair. So if I do need to sit down, other people are talking. I can just sit down. This was her request. Please don't think I make my guest stand while I sit down. I can't. I have to say this. Was this or was this not your complete request?

[Sean Ju Pal]

Yes.

[Deborah Frances-White]

That's so unconvincing. It now looks like I'm lying.

[Heidi Regan]

But I asked if I could Stand. And you said, no, you must sit.

[Deborah Frances-White]

That is absolutely not true. This has gone horribly wrong. Our second guest Today is an MP who has represented Hampstead and Highgate since 2015. Formerly called Hampstead and Kilburn, she was instrumental in securing the release of Nazanin Zagari Ratcliffe. And she is now joining Shonju's campaign. What a good politician. It's so damn rare. Please welcome to the stage and back to the show, the incredible Tulip Sadiq. Hi, Tulip. Take a seat. Yes, absolutely. No, we all do. So I also want to say that in the house is a Dr. Rebecca Malik. She is a consultant gynecologist and president elect of the bsg, which takes the lead on endometriosis in this country.

[Sean Ju Pal]

And.

[Deborah Frances-White]

And Dr. Rebecca Malik will be here to answer any medical questions or when we go to Q and A, your questions, can you just give us a wave and maybe stand up? Thank you.

[Sean Ju Pal]

And I also just want to say, Rebecca is a trustee of Endometriosis foundation and you will have seen, as you were arriving, the most stunning Stand. And we're very lucky to have the founder and CEO, Carla Cressy OB in the room.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yay.

[Sean Ju Pal]

And some lovely volunteers as well.

[Heidi Regan]

So, yeah.

[Sean Ju Pal]

Available to speak to during the interval.

[Deborah Frances-White]

This room is pullulating with endometriosis experts and also people with lived experience. Yes. So first of all, can I ask you, Shonju, just tell us about how this came about. You know your story of how this came about.

[Heidi Regan]

Yeah.

[Sean Ju Pal]

Hi, everyone. Oh, my God. What an honour to be able to talk to you. But also quite scary. I was diagnosed with endometriosis very suddenly. After I was in debilitating pain for a couple of months, I found out I had two very large endometrioma. So chocolate cysts, they call them as well.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Chocolate cysts.

[Heidi Regan]

Yeah.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Do they?

[Sean Ju Pal]

Yeah.

[Deborah Frances-White]

That sounds.

[Sean Ju Pal]

Really sounds nice, isn't it?

[Deborah Frances-White]

Certainly sounds. Well, I mean, I don't know that I want a chocolate cyst, but it sounds much more. More attractive and appealing than it apparently is. Why do they call them that?

[Sean Ju Pal]

Because they're filled with blood and the blood gets old and dark. A little bit like chocolate.

[Deborah Frances-White]

This is a terrible story. Keep going.

[Sean Ju Pal]

It's the truth and we know it. Right? We're in a room with endo warriors, endo sisters. Yet this language that we have to hear from doctors, from radiologists, or at least expecting it. I was told that my cystic was the size of a Coke can. So very quickly saw a gynecologist, Dr. Okaro, who is still My gynecologist was told that I needed immediate surgery, otherwise I would risk torsion twisting of my uterus. Told work, told Accenture I was at the time trying to make senior manager. So I had been there for 10 years. I was really ambitious. I was running Rise as a side hustle. Charities can be side hustles and we're fine with that. I cared so much about getting back to work. I went back too quickly and then I came off sick again. Thought Accenture were being really supportive. They were. They put me on a phase return. Generous two month phase return. A London restriction so I wouldn't have to travel. We all know how difficult it is when you're dealing with fatigue as a management consultant. To live out of a suitcase was really, really tough. So, okay, fine. Work in London, good. There was no demand in London. So it's again, I think of any job that you're in, suddenly, okay, well, there's, there's no need for you. But what are you meant to do if you can't work? I'm on the bench. That's what it is called in management consulting. So I was on the bench. Wasn't being chargeable, wasn't adding value, apparently, even though I couldn't, because I couldn't travel out of London. And then out of nowhere, I received a letter that said I was being invited to a meeting and that at that meeting I may be at risk of dismissal from my job for poor performance. And that was a letter that came three months after my phase return. And I'd been there for 10 years. When I went to the meeting, took all my sick notes, took my occupational health reports, told them how difficult I've been finding things, told them that I was a top performer, I could turn it around, just needed some more time. They said I was fired and that was the, that was it. Just to leave the building on that day. Couldn't. Couldn't say bye to colleagues, couldn't have the big party. I mean, Debs, you know me, my friends in the room. I think I thought the day that I leave Accenture, there's going to be a fanfare. Do you know what I mean? Like, people are going to be devastated. They're not going to want me to go. They're just going to throw a massive party, maybe try and get me back. And it wasn't that at all. And I have to, you know, I have to be humorous about it because it was one of the worst days of my life to have to literally walk out the door in complete humiliation. And shame.

[Deborah Frances-White]

But they don't even get to give you six weeks to wind up or anything like that. It's just your email address gets turned off.

[Sean Ju Pal]

And on that day, actually I had, I had two weeks. So they gave me two weeks to still have access to my email. But like, one of the things I've, I've said is that on that day I had meetings planned and then the managing director who fired me was like, you can't email them.

[Deborah Frances-White]

You can't email them. What, to cancel the meeting?

[Heidi Regan]

Yeah.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Wow. Brutal. It is brutal. And they, they haven't, you know, you've told me about the up and out policy that they have. Can you explain what that is?

[Sean Ju Pal]

So I was told I was a poor performer because I was not accelerating in line with the up or out model. And what that meant is that you need to, or I needed to be promoted within a certain time period, which was four years for me. So I was a manager to make senior manager. Apparently I only had four years to do it, otherwise they can push me out. If I don't make that promotion point, they can push me out. And it's a bit like saying you're a teacher and you have to make head of department, otherwise you're going to be pushed out. It's again, it's a very cutthroat model.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Even if you're doing the job you're doing to the highest possible standard.

[Sean Ju Pal]

Yes.

[Deborah Frances-White]

If you're not, if they don't see you as promotable, they just fire you.

[Sean Ju Pal]

Yeah.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Which doesn't seem fair, does it? Because if you're doing your job very well and you're getting, and you were always getting top appraisals, why do you have to go? Because you're not in a position to do the next job. At some point that's got to end. Because not everyone can be CEO.

[Sean Ju Pal]

I mean, I thought I might be, but not to be.

[Heidi Regan]

That's such an unhappy workplace as well, if everyone's having to strive like that.

[Sean Ju Pal]

Turns out, you know, now that I talk about this, a lot of people find it quite difficult to work at Accenture, is what I hear.

[Deborah Frances-White]

And I think a lot of big corporations like that because of those kinds of pressures. So you didn't take that lying down, you went and you took them to court.

[Sean Ju Pal]

Yeah.

[Deborah Frances-White]

And can you just tell us what's come of that?

[Sean Ju Pal]

Yeah, so I did take them to court. It was a bit of a long drawn process. I thought maybe I'd get my job back. So I went through an internal appeal first really hopeful, massively naive. And then when I didn't get my job back, I submitted my claim on the 19th of December 2019. And it's been, what's that? Six and a half years of a legal battle that's involved a lot of paperwork, writing witness statements. My witness statement was 150 pages and I feel like I should publish it one day because it's a good read, actually. So if you can get your hands on it. Lots of hearings and then a final hearing in May 2022 where I won an unfair dismissal, but my compensation was reduced by 100%, so I got no compensation, even though the tribunal held that I was dismissed unfairly.

[Deborah Frances-White]

But why? Why? If you've been dismissed unfairly and then you've been having to pursue this, which has stopped you going and getting other jobs, why on earth would they not give you any compensation?

[Sean Ju Pal]

Debs? It's called the Polki reduction. It's quite technical case law that says that if you would have been dismissed anyway, in the opinion of the judge, you can reduce your compensation.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Right. So they just made a case that, oh, we were going to fire her anyway, even though there was no evidence of that.

[Sean Ju Pal]

That's exactly. And that we've challenged that. And actually we are challenging quite an important part of Polky reduction case law. It's spelled P O L K E Y if anyone wants to look it up after. I'm kind of, I'm making the waves in like legal firms, law firms, because.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yeah, you're changing precedent.

[Sean Ju Pal]

Yeah.

[Deborah Frances-White]

So if you ultimately win everything, it will change precedent. So they can't do up or out. And also they have to consider endometriosis a disability.

[Sean Ju Pal]

Yeah, exactly.

[Heidi Regan]

So what will that mean for women in general with endometriosis if that kind of ruling goes through?

[Sean Ju Pal]

I mean, first of all, the ruling has gone through. So. In case you didn't know, on the 19th of January this year, after a six year legal battle, we won the appeal. So we have the full hearing in May. I appealed that, we had a hearing in December. And this year the tribunal that's called the Employment Appeal Tribunal equivalent of the High Court on three counts, we've won. So the Polki reduction, they've said, hang on a second, there was no evidence to demonstrate that shonju would have been dismissed anyway. So no, reverse that. Second thing was the up or out model. That is not legal in relation to the Employment Rights Act. The section is 98. 2. Again, if you're interested, have a look. Also read the judgment because I think There is so much to learn from this judgment by James Taylor, who for me is like an incredible judge who finally listened to me, who heard me and heard us understand what endometriosis is. And that's the third thing. That's the most important thing. Yes, endometriosis can be and should be considered a disability under the Equality Act 2010. That is legal precedent, that is legally binding. That is a win for us. Also, to your question, Heidi, what does that mean? It means that if your employer is saying, well, actually, I'm not going to give you a reasonable adjustment, I'm not going to refer you to Occupational Health, I'm not going to take on board your medical evidence. You can say, well, I'm sorry, that's against the law. There's a case, it's called PAL versus Accenture. Maybe I could print out a copy for you and let's have a conversation about it.

[Deborah Frances-White]

And I actually googled, I googled tonight just before I came and I showed this to Sean Ju and she didn't know I was there, but I googled, is endometriosis a disability? And it came back with, it's not automatically classified as a dis. Top thing. If you Google it, it's not automatically classified as a disability, but can qualify under the Equality Act 2010 in the UK if symptoms cause a long term and substantial adverse effect on daily activities. It is officially recognised as a chronic, often debilitating condition with recent case law, and it says, Sean Dupal versus Accenture 2026, reinforcing that, it can amount to a disability. So that is a real landmark thing that you done and it's really been worth all of the time you've put into it. But I'm sorry, it's taken years of your life because they should not have treated you this way. But it's really brought to the fore how many women will have been treated and thought that they had no recourse. And so it's amazing what you've done. And you brought this to your mp, Tulip Sadiq, and you were very lucky to have Tulip Sadiq as your MP, because, I mean, a lot of MPs as we know, aren't tulips a dick? So so many of them.

[Tulip Siddiq]

There's only ever been one MP called Tulip.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yeah. So to have an MP that will go, yeah, this isn't right. And so, Tulip, you picked up this baton recently. Can you tell us about what you did?

[Tulip Siddiq]

Sure. So Seonju comes to see me for a start. I like strong Women who won't take no for an answer. So I was quite impressed by Seonju. But I had actually met her once years and years ago when she'd received this Points of Light award from some man called David Cameron. But she came. She came to Parliament and I had met her, and I remember her saying, this must have been years ago. And she said, oh, work is my life. And, you know, it really kind of sticks in your head. And then she told me she'd been in this battle with the management consultancy firm, and I think it was just listening to a story that got me more and more angry because she had been at work, she had been working really hard when, through no fault of her own, she developed this condition. She told them, these are the reasons why I can't work in the way that I used to, as in traveling or the long hours, whatever, because she was heavily bleeding. And when she's told the story, she's left out a lot of the details which I've read about, which is excruciating pain, like barely being able to move, not being able to stand up straight, all of these reasons. And she showed her workplace and her managers the evidence, and what did they do? They ignored it. And it really upset me because it was like women not being seen and not being heard and dismissed when they had health conditions that they can do nothing about. So for me, there was a couple of missions. One was to raise awareness. I mean, we've talked a bit about legislation. Yes, it should be included. Menstrual conditions should be included in the equality guidance. That's fine. But there is existing legislation which says you have to make reasonable adjustments in the workplace if one of your employees is going through something very serious, has health conditions, has a disability, and big employers especially choose to ignore this. So for me, yes, it's about legislation, But, Deborah, it's a lot about legislation that's already there, but when it suits them, they won't implement it and they won't take it seriously. And the truth is, I am lucky I am in Parliament so I can raise something. It will be put on Parliament tv. It is set in the Chamber, it's in Hansard, and probably the management consultancy will probably see it at some point. So for me, a lot of the work that I've been doing in terms of raising awareness has just been using the Chamber to direct it to the government or making sure people hear Shonja's story, which she can't, like, walk into the Chamber and just speak because she's not elected. So I guess I'm being her voice in Westminster. Maybe. Depends. Depends which party you stand for. Okay. Anyway, won't go to that. But it's being her voice in Westminster, which is the job of an mp.

[Deborah Frances-White]

That's the job. Yeah.

[Heidi Regan]

How's it been received in Parliament when you've brought it up?

[Tulip Siddiq]

Do you know what? Surprisingly well, which may not have happened when I got elected 11 years ago, but we've had an influx of female MPs, as you probably have seen. So, you know, Parliament's more balanced now. And the debate that was called in Westminster hall recently on. On endometriosis was actually by a young man called Jack Abbott, who's the MP for Ipswich. And the reason he brought the debate to the House is because one of his former classmates really suffered from endometriosis. And he had eight endow warriors sitting in the gallery watching when he called this debate. And I was really pleased to see there was men and women from across the chamber. So it wasn't just the Labour Party, because Jack's also from the Labour Party, but it was people from across the neighbor just coming in and saying, well, my wife had it, my sister had it, my constituent had it. So it's actually been received quite well. But one of the things you can't do is because, you know, you may have noticed lots of, lots of things are happening in the world. If you don't keep talking about it, it will fall off the agenda. So there's a few more things I want to do, Deborah. One is to make sure we get better data. The last data we had, which says one in 10 women in the UK suffer from this health condition is from 2009.

[Heidi Regan]

Right.

[Tulip Siddiq]

This is before COVID That's before we left the European Union. That's before my children started saying, six, seven. I mean, it's a long time ago.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Right.

[Tulip Siddiq]

If we don't have the correct data, we won't be able to do anything in terms of making reasonable adjustments or passing legislation. So I want the government to get better data on this. The second thing is I would really like to have assessors and Department of Work and Pensions actually recognize the symptoms of endometriosis. So if someone comes, they will get the support they need because a benefit assessor will recognize the symptoms because it's just not known about enough. So those are the things I'm pushing forward.

[Heidi Regan]

Have you thought about taking into Parliament those things where they simulate the feeling of period pain on men? And then they say, and they're going, I'll put it up to nine and ah.

[Tulip Siddiq]

Do you know what? That's a great idea actually. Okay, that's our next question. Mission.

[Sean Ju Pal]

I. I love the. What do we call this? Do we call it synergy or serendipity? So over the moon have just done this campaign and the observer basically are all over these. What are they called? They TENS machine snores. Okay, good.

[Tulip Siddiq]

That's what I used during my labor. Like as in pregnancy. TENS machine?

[Heidi Regan]

Really?

[Tulip Siddiq]

Is that what it's called?

[Heidi Regan]

I'm not.

[Tulip Siddiq]

No, that wasn't. All right.

[Heidi Regan]

Okay. I'm not a doctor.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Is it over the blood? You mean menstrual vests?

[Sean Ju Pal]

Menstrual vests.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Oh, and Dr. Rebecca, do you know about this?

[Tulip Siddiq]

You know about this?

[Dr. Rebecca Malik]

I know, but I don't know what they're called. They are like tent machines, but they are called menstrual vests.

[Deborah Frances-White]

They're called menstrual vests.

[Tulip Siddiq]

I'll tell Keir that he's gonna have to be in a menstrual vest quite soon.

[Deborah Frances-White]

And what do you know what. And can I say not just to try one on, to have to do work, to have to, you know, do PMQs with it on. Because that's the reality of our lives, is that we have gynecological issues and we're expected to go forward or see if they ring in and say, I've got to take a day off because it isn't anybody's fault. It's often misdiagnosed. I shared something with you the other day, Shonju, about really terrible story about this woman who kept being told, you're a hypochondriac. We can't find anything. Then she died. And when they did the post mortem, she was so scarred from endometriosis and they went, oh, she had endometriosis all along. And so we need awareness of. You know, like Heidi, you were saying you didn't know what it was and sometimes it's scary and you don't go in and get it seen to.

[Heidi Regan]

Well, the silly thing with me is I knew I had. I got diagnosed at 18. I had an operation. They said it's really bad. I had another one a couple years later. And then I just, just let it. I was like, I have the pain is endometriosis. I just put up with it for 10 years. And was my wife saying, you know, you could go get that treated. And I just didn't think. I was just like, you just put up with it. That's.

[Deborah Frances-White]

But that's We, I think women, and of course, people of minority genders as well, often think, oh, I'm going to be blamed, or I'm not going to be believed, or they're going to say, I need to lose weight, or they're going to say, I'm making it up, or they're going to say, you just have to put up with it. What's the point? Because it's sort of like an emotional subjection. So you keep avoiding it, thinking, I can deal with this.

[Sean Ju Pal]

Definitely. I think one of the things I just thought now is that the sadness that we carry like that was such a sad story. We know of these sad stories of women just in debilitating pain and not being diagnosed and being treated abhorrently in the workplace. One in six women with endometriosis are pushed out of the workplace. There are some horrific stats around the number of women who are overlooked for promotion, who just basically lose out on income because of their condition. And that's why it is so important. This, this piece around educating DWP assessors for disability benefits. That's one of the things. And if that comes out of our working campaign, then I think that's amazing. I also want to go back to the heaviness and sadness because I know that I feel like there's a lot of us in this room who have to carry this every day and to have to carry that while you're trying to work or fight for your job or indeed fight a legal battle. And I know that there are some people in the room doing that right now concurrently, because they've told me, and I can see that sadness. And I really. I hear you, I see you and I know it. And all I want to say is that the bleakness, the darkness does pass, and it has to. And we have to keep going with this because we've all just said it's so important that the government take notice. This is the beginning of a very long journey to make this systemic change. And it has to be systemic because there are millions of women up and down the country who are treated terribly. It is a very serious problem. I would call it a crisis in this country. And that's why we're here on the Guilty Feminist talking about it, because this is the best place to make the change, to kind of get the support. And, I mean, I feel like I keep talking, so I'll just stop there.

[Tulip Siddiq]

But, you know, very good. This is a politician in the making when you can't stop talking. Look, I think one of the things that really got to me about Shandra's story is that six and a half years of her life, right? And we're just saying this glibly, like six and a half years, but you've got caring responsibilities. And there were days when I know, like, mentally it must have affected you so much. And I just think it shouldn't have to be that way. Not every woman should have to go through a six year battle just to be heard about something that is a genuine condition. And that's why it upset me. It's like, why did she have to go through six years before someone was like, okay, actually you were dismissed unfairly. It's not that you were just skiving. Actually there was a condition that stopped you from working. So I think that's what really affected me about the story. The other thing, it's something, Deborah, you just said about ethnic minorities. And both Ronja and I are from South Asian heritage. And I do really remember growing up. I grew up in a household where my mom is very forward looking on everything. Except when it comes to your period.

[Heidi Regan]

Right.

[Tulip Siddiq]

And there is something about. I just never knew the words menopause. Like, I never knew what endometriosis was growing up. And of course my mother would have gone through the menopause. Why did I never hear the words and why did I never hear the symptoms? And I do think there is a lot of stigma attached to menstrual health and I don't want young women to grow up in the way that I did. Where you having your period? Stay quiet. It's disgusting. You know, hide away. Never discuss it with your brother or your dad, no matter how close you are to it. You can talk about anything else. Do not mention your period. And that's another reason why I really feel like we've got to start talking about this. Remove the stigma. Let young women who are from ethnic minority backgrounds talk about how much it's affecting them and their ability to work if it comes to that.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Wonderful. Heidi, have you got a question for Shantu?

[Heidi Regan]

Yes, I do. Can you. What was it like going up against a giant corporation on your own? I assume easy, but if you've got

[Sean Ju Pal]

more to say, oh my God, it was, it has been like the hardest thing I think I've had to do and I want to try and unpack it. Like, why is it so hard? It's so hard when you are confident, ambitious woman who believes in yourself and you think you're dominating in all spheres of life and then suddenly you're told you're not. And then, not just that. When you say, hang on a second, maybe you've got something wrong there. They continue to say, not just you're a poor performer, but now let's drag in some of your previous colleagues who loved and respected you at the time. But now I want to tell you that you were never anything good at this company for 10 years. And that's what they've done. That's what they did in their witness statement. Six witness statements, 200 something pages of character assassination.

[Deborah Frances-White]

It's implausible though, because they wouldn't have kept you there for 10 years. What do we know, up or out. But. But I remember, you know, when I used to go and do, you know, host conferences there, do international Women's Day events, that kind of thing, you were seen as a shining star and you also were doing Rise. And you know, they don't let you do Rise at Accenture if you're not doing your job. Rise is the charity that Shonji was running that had a. Yeah, I still do. So it's pairing South Asian schools with you Say what it is.

[Sean Ju Pal]

Yeah. So we support young people in rural West Bengal to build their literacy. They are below the poverty line and they're connected with young people in the uk. And I started that when I was a teacher. I did the Teach first program and was inspired to again, this sort of social justice in me to say, well, I've been going to rural West Bengal, Bengal, India, on the east side of India, but also part of what was Bengal, Bangladesh as well, and love it there. But I can see deprivation from a young age and I wanted to do something about it. So I managed Rise on top of a full time job as a management consultant at Accenture.

[Deborah Frances-White]

And you were pairing young people from local schools here who were perhaps from schools where they wouldn't necessarily get an entrepreneurial program, pairing them with the school in, in West Bengal, in West Bengal. And so there was, you know, cultural exchange. Young people here got an entrepreneurial opportunity. I first came along because you asked me to come and do like a Dragon in Dragon's Den for the young entrepreneurs who were doing social responsibility programs and fundraisers in their school.

[Sean Ju Pal]

Because I saw Debs, like literally Deb standing up, doing a great talk at Accenture. One of the best things that was happening to me that day. And I was like, this is a woman I want to know forever. I'm just going to slide into her DMs. I don't think DMs existed then. So I literally just Pen and paper, please. May I have your email? Email address?

[Deborah Frances-White]

I received it by pigeon and immediately wrote back, got my quill out, dipped

[Sean Ju Pal]

it in the ink.

[Deborah Frances-White]

And the rest, as they say, is fiction. But yeah, so I was working. And I know all companies like that, all of the big four consultancies and the big investment banks and law firms and things that are in the city. They don't let you run a corporate responsibility program like that with a charitable army within their organization.

[Sean Ju Pal]

I still don't understand why they had to fire me. I don't. I will never understand. I also never understand why they couldn't give me my job back. Because I'm one person in it. I've said it before, David and Goliath, like, I'm one little woman with very large breasts, actually. So I'm not that little. But I'm one woman from very humble beginnings on a council state in Camden. And they couldn't take me back. And not just that, they couldn't just let it go. And they've carried on these legal proceedings and the character assassination and on the stand, like, I think, you know, I've got friends. My best friends from Camden School for Girls are here.

[Tulip Siddiq]

No one from Camden is humble and small. Thank you. Had to plug that one.

[Sean Ju Pal]

Thank you, though. I like it.

[Deborah Frances-White]

I also have lived in Camden for a very long time and I can back that up.

[Tulip Siddiq]

This is why I like you.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Deborah co signed women from Camden don't take no shit.

[Tulip Siddiq]

Thank you. She's doing my job.

[Heidi Regan]

Yeah.

[Deborah Frances-White]

We've all walked home. We've all walked home on a Saturday night through Camden. And you have to learn how to say, no, thank you, sir. I would suggest you turn around and walk away. I've learned how to hold my head really still.

[Heidi Regan]

Heidi, I found out my fight or flight is I just become a 90s Ninja Turtle. Because I always just go, dude, like that. That's all I say. And it's just me, like, freaking out. But I just say the word dude over and over. It's very strange.

[Deborah Frances-White]

I bet that works as well.

[Heidi Regan]

Well, they definitely leave. I'm not sure.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yeah, that works as well. But yes, you. You're, as you say, you're one person. They could have just gone. This is more trouble than it's worth. We'll give her a job back. She did do a good job. She was there for 10 years. A decade of your life that you've given them. And then they're not going to just say, okay, she's been sick for a while. Let's you know, give her this time because she's given us 10 years of

[Sean Ju Pal]

her life and like to back themselves, to be in a courtroom on oath. I had a nine day hearing. I was on the stand for two days. It was like I was a criminal the way that I was, I don't know, challenged in my own integrity. And this is the thing I find the most difficult thing because it's almost like being gaslit and then you stop believing in who you are and you forget who you are. And that's why I went to a dark place. And I've had extreme amounts of counseling and I still do, to remember who I was, remember who I fundamentally am. And that is a very challenging thing for all. I'm going to say all women, all women, we have to deal with that almost every day at work. And that is horrible. And I genuinely wish that they did better. I wish Accenture did better.

[Tulip Siddiq]

Can I say something, though, Sanju? This is something I think when, you know, politics can have its ups and downs, but one of the things I do is casework, right? And just to say to you, you would have changed the lives of thousands of women that you will never meet. I think it's quite important to remember that because what you've experienced is traumatic and I'm not surprised. You've needed the counseling and you should keep going and trying to get, you know, back and keep the positivity because you've usually been positive and I've seen you. But do try and remember that because it does really get you through dark patches, if that makes sense.

[Sean Ju Pal]

And it does. And can I just say that I know that there are women who've messaged me and I haven't replied, but please know that I will and your messages keep me going. And I feel like that we can say that, can't we? It's like, oh, you know, I received this really lovely message. It's like, no, in my darkest hour when I have a submission in the legal battle and I'm up till the wee hours working with my legal team and it was important for me to do that. I read every single letter on every page of what they write about me. And I know that's almost like, I mean, is that slightly like, I don't know, trauma? I feel like second generation Asian trauma or something. Like, just to know. I must, I must read what they've said about me. But it's so that I can then tackle the next stage with my lawyers. And I've done a law degree now I've got A master's in law. Because I was like, I'm not messing around here.

[Heidi Regan]

No. Just being in a room with, like, when I was describing my symptoms in my set and I was seeing people nod as I was, and I've never. I've met two people with the same symptoms as me in my whole life. Because you just don't chat to me. People about it. But, yeah, seeing.

[Deborah Frances-White]

So seeing people in the audience nodding. Yeah.

[Heidi Regan]

Yeah, you guys were. Yeah. Like, as soon as I went fist. Not. Not to out you on that. Sorry.

[Deborah Frances-White]

But when you were doing.

[Heidi Regan]

We got some fistas over here. Yeah.

[Deborah Frances-White]

But when you were doing the tour, you must have seen it a lot that people nodding or coming up after came up after. And it does endorse you, doesn't it? It does make you feel like I'm not alone.

[Heidi Regan]

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I'm not.

[Deborah Frances-White]

I'm not alone. I'm not.

[Sean Ju Pal]

Yeah.

[Heidi Regan]

And I did a podcast once where I talked about the fist pain. And. And then someone messaged the podcast and said, I just got. My friend just got diagnosed with it, because I text her and said, hey, that's the pain you have. And then she woke up. But it's just talking about Maurice.

[Deborah Frances-White]

So this is where talking about things and bringing things out as the light is so important. But can we ask you what happened yesterday?

[Sean Ju Pal]

I feel like we've. We've galvanized, right? We're like, yeah, change is happening. Landmark case. Legal precedent. Endometriosis considered a disability. Up or out model, not legal. Polky reduction. No one cares about it. Apart from lawyers yesterday. Oh, my God. How do I say this without getting emotional?

[Deborah Frances-White]

Ta da.

[Sean Ju Pal]

Accenture have appealed, and their appeal's been granted, and they're dragging me to the Court of Appeal. It has been a difficult 24 hours stomaching that I haven't even told my best friends. I couldn't. I went to a very dark place yesterday. Didn't want to talk to anyone. Because, again, this is why, when you ask what makes it difficult in a David and Goliath battle, it's these moments when suddenly you feel absolutely insignificant again. And if I talk to my counselor, and luckily I had a counseling session yesterday, and I was like, what am I doing? And she was like, hang on a second. Let's just go rewind. What's been happening, none of that's been diminished. It stands. And I want to be really clear. The judgment stands until the Court of Appeal reverse it. And we're going to have to try our best now to fight that. And Ensure that we win again in the Court of Appeal. And if we win in the Court of Appeal, that is legally binding on all courts in the uk. So Accenture best be ready, because I feel like with the help of you people, you wonderful, beautiful people, we're gonna battle them with their own silk barristers. You'll know that silks are the highest level of barristers. So they've got one of those now against me. Sorry, I'm not a little person from Camden. What am I?

[Tulip Siddiq]

I'm a major giant from Camden School for Girls.

[Dr. Rebecca Malik]

Yes.

[Sean Ju Pal]

Onwards and upwards. This Camden School for Girls motto that I use in all my messages. But effectively we can't. Like, you know how we've just gone into a silence and I think we all feeling this pain because it's just painful that Accenture have basically said, you know what? We don't care about your endometriosis as a disability. We want to challenge that and say that it isn't. We think the up or out model is absolutely fine.

[Deborah Frances-White]

So how can we help you with this next stage? Because I didn't think they would win. I think I thought they would appeal because for the company, they don't want precedent set. They want to be able to still do up or out. They don't want to be told, you know, who they can fire. So I understand why they appealed. I'm quite. Did the judge give you any reason for the.

[Sean Ju Pal]

This is.

[Deborah Frances-White]

This is it.

[Sean Ju Pal]

What? No reason.

[Deborah Frances-White]

They would normally give a reason, wouldn't they, why they allow the appeal.

[Sean Ju Pal]

This is another question about the inadequacy of the legal system in this country. So one judge might give you war and peace reasons. Good. This judge, one line. I think this has real prospects.

[Deborah Frances-White]

And will you have to pay their expenses if they win, Their legal costs if they. If you win, yeah.

[Sean Ju Pal]

So that's how it works in the Court of Appeal. Loser pays winners costs.

[Deborah Frances-White]

And what might their costs be?

[Sean Ju Pal]

I mean, I do not even want to think about it. Okay, so they're the world's largest management consulting firm and they are dragging me to the Court of Appeal where loser pays costs of the winner. I mean, can you imagine?

[Deborah Frances-White]

So what can we do to help you?

[Sean Ju Pal]

I think genuinely that one of the first things is if you have a barrister in your network who is a silk and wants to help a girl

[Deborah Frances-White]

out, who would do something pro bono.

[Sean Ju Pal]

Do something pro bono. Working with my existing, and I should say so, my barrister, Elaine Banton, she's amazing. But we're going to need more help. We're going to need more help to go up against Accenture at the Court of Appeal.

[Tulip Siddiq]

The way things get done in Parliament, which I'm sure everyone has realized by now, is collective effort and it has got to be cross party. So you mentioned Nazneen, Zagari, Ratcliffe. At the beginning, when we started, the way we bought her home was I was her local mp, I still am, and I fought for her, but I had a huge number of Conservative MPs and the Green MP and Lib Dems and SMP, everyone coming together to help. And I realized that quite early on, actually. For a start, I was in opposition. So I had to make sure the Conservative government heard what we were trying to do, trying to bring her home. But if I want to get anywhere with Chonju's case, but also to raise the awareness that we're doing, then I've got to have support from across the chamber. So I guess what I wanted to say is I would really encourage you to email your mp, especially if it's not me, because I'm already wedded to the cause. Right. But the day that we had the debate in Westminster hall, every MP that turned up turned up because they had had a constituent badgering them and emailing them and saying, this is very important to me. So it's very simple. Just find your MP online and all you have to say is, we think this is very important. There's a number of things they can do. They can table a parliamentary question, they can ask for a Westminster hall debate, they can contact me. I did say there's only one MP called Tulip. They can contact me and then they can speak to me and we can. It's a collective voice that gets things done in Parliament. So it's just to say, we have a room full of amazing women here. You should be contacting your mp. So I have some support in raising awareness of this and an awareness about your case as well. I mean, you've set me a number of challenges. You want Keir to wear a vest to PMQs, you want to make sure I sort out the judicial system, you want to make sure that we get more funding for women's health. But I would also like some help in all these causes.

[Sean Ju Pal]

Yeah, absolutely. I'm here for you.

[Deborah Frances-White]

And on that, let's go to the audience. Who's got a question? And can I remind you that we have Dr. Rebecca Malik, who is an expert on endometriosis. Any questions? I'm Helen. I'm a counsellor and a psychotherapist. And what I picked up being spoken about here is the mental toll of what you've been through. And I'm also aware, having endometriosis myself, the mental toll of having a chronic condition and having to cope with that, going through delayed diagnosis, and what that does to for your sort of psychological and emotional health. And I wondered, Tulip, if that is something that you're pushing in terms of the mental health support for people with endometriosis, as well as the sort of advancing physical diagnosis and better women's health in general.

[Tulip Siddiq]

So every debate I've started, when I start talking about Chunzu, I make sure I mention the world's mental health and the toll it's taken on her mental health. Because I think. I don't want people to just dismiss the fact that it was six years of legal case. Okay, she had to read pages and pages and prep and sit with her barrister and navigate the legal system, but the emotional trauma that she had to go with, I've spoken about at every opportunity. What I probably haven't pushed for in fairness, is funding to make sure that this is dealt with. But I have written to the Secretary of State saying that he needs to meet with me and Cheonju to discuss the case. So that's one thing to add to our list.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Thank you. It's a really good point. Because it's six years where you can't really work, can't get another job. Like, it's. Like it's. It's almost a decade of your life, and it's not over. They won't. They won't drop it.

[Sean Ju Pal]

Hello. My question was about.

[Heidi Regan]

Well, I've been working to advocate for workplace adaptations to menstrual health, specifically around endometriosis, for a long time now. And my question, just because I think everyone needs to hear it, is, how

[Deborah Frances-White]

do you wish Accenture treated you?

[Sean Ju Pal]

Great question. Also, I'm so sorry, everyone. That looks really sad.

[Deborah Frances-White]

We're going to be okay.

[Sean Ju Pal]

We're going to get through this.

[Deborah Frances-White]

We've got to.

[Sean Ju Pal]

How do I wish they'd handled it? So I think the first thing is, they didn't use a capability process. They used a misconduct process, a disciplinary process. And I know that's something that, again, women have written to me to say that that's what they've experienced. So the first thing, you've got to have a capability process. Come on. And your capability process needs to be adapted. If an employee is coming to you to say that they are disabled or that they are struggling in the workplace, and that's the legal duty of an employer. So a reasonable adjustment in my case would have been, okay, we run the up or out model. You're coming up to four years, but actually you've been off work for three months. You've had a phased return for three months, so we need to give you at least six more months. Let's see how that goes. Concurrently, we might put you on a performance management plan, not so that we can push you out, but so that we can support you to get to the next level. Because actually, that's what you demonstrated for 10 years. That's the first thing. When they actually carted me into the room, the meeting, they had basically not done any checking with my line manager for my current feedback. So at the time I was. I was back up on a project, I was doing really well. Have the decency to do an investigation on my performance if you're going to terminate me for poor performance. So that's another point. And I think, again, they had so many opportunities along the road to just do better. But I'll go up a level. And I think this is some of the stuff that we're talking about. At a strategic level, there needs to be policies in place to protect women with gynecological conditions. And we know from research done just in October 2020 that only 11% of employers in this country have a menstrual health policy. And even the language there is not correct because not everyone who has a gynecological condition is menstruating. So we need gynecological health policies, as you know, a matter of fact, as mandatory across the uk. Does that answer your question?

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yes. And that might bring us to Dr. Rebecca Malik. Can we ask you, if you had a magic wand, how would you change things? Because this is a real area of expertise for you.

[Dr. Rebecca Malik]

It's a really difficult question, I think, to answer. I think if I'm looking at it, I think we've got to look at it from a national level first of all, and you've already said some fantastic things, but we really need to prioritize women's health. I think that's where it comes from. We can push at local levels, we can push at regional levels, but we really need a national directive from government policy to say we care about women's health, we hear the problems and we need to fund women's health, because that's what it comes down to. It's the funding around women's health. And without the funding, you can't get the education you can't get it instilled in schools across the board. It comes from top down education, more funding, more research, listening to women and putting more resources in women's health and women's health care at a local level.

[Heidi Regan]

I know from my dad emailing me this morning that Australia's just brought in, is bringing in like endometriosis clinics, like 30 of them around the country and like education in schools for it. Is there already a thing like that here or.

[Dr. Rebecca Malik]

So actually in the uk we are ahead of the game a little bit in that we have centres across the UK that look after those with severe endometriosis. So they are BSG accredited centres, but there's a huge disparity of where they exist. So there's only three in Scotland, one in Northern Ireland, there's maybe about 20 in London. But there's such a big disparity, so it's getting that equity of access for all women. So we do do really well in the UK in that we do have structured pathways for people to get endometriosis care, but it's just getting there and getting that diagnosis first. Education in schools is something we really need to work on and that's what Carla and the team are trying to really embed in schools.

[Deborah Frances-White]

From your experience, do employers generally understand endometriosis? What's the level of understanding?

[Dr. Rebecca Malik]

It depends, to be honest, is the honest answer I've worked with. You know, I've seen many women in clinic and I've written many a letter having to explain what endometriosis is, what kind of adapt, even just simple things like access to going to the toilet, you know, being able to, you know, just basic things that you would expect an employer to, to know by now. So there's been many times where I've had to write these kinds of letters again and again and again, whereas we've got other employers who really do understand and will give sick time, you know, time off and be really supportive of recovery and phased return. But it's just embedding it so that it's not. It's the norm, isn't it? It's not just something that people haven't heard about, it's just more important.

[Deborah Frances-White]

So we need more awareness, more funding and more policy so that people understand endometriosis can be a disability and it needs to be treated such. So if one of your employees went blind, you wouldn't go, oh, we do have a bit of an up or out model. Anyone else got a question? How would you say we can change the conversation or the way that a conversation goes between a GP or a doctor and a patient.

[Dr. Rebecca Malik]

Because if I were to try to

[Deborah Frances-White]

advocate for myself now, whether it's in the workplace or in a social space or anything, I would struggle a lot

[Dr. Rebecca Malik]

because I would continually think of every

[Deborah Frances-White]

doctor who's told me I'm overly emotional or I'm hysterical or I'm, I have anxiety or everything else I've been told by any doctor. So I suppose, as well as the referrals and the kind of, the numbers

[Dr. Rebecca Malik]

around it, how do we change, like

[Deborah Frances-White]

the language that's being used in those kind of consultations? Because that has a big impact as well, I think.

[Dr. Rebecca Malik]

I know it definitely does. And you know, I have these conversations in clinic every day and hear the same things exactly that you're saying. It's not a straightforward, you go to your GP and you come and see me three months later. You know, it's. People have had these symptoms when they started their periods and they've waited, I think you said, like 13 years to actually get, get help. And this is, this is, this is very common. But it comes down to education again, doesn't it? It's education and awareness of gps so they know the symptoms so that we can refer straight away. It's education in schools so that when you've got a 14 year old who's got really debilitating symptoms, who's fainting, that's not normal. It's picking that up early and referring in. So it's, it's all about, it all comes down to education and awareness and advocacy. And I know it's really tiring for you to keep advocating for yourself, but it's. Get involved in the charities, keep a symptom diary, advocate for that second opinion. Just keep pushing. But I hope that with the changes that we're bringing in, you know, you'll all have to, you would have to keep pushing and that we will be able to have these conversations. But I think at this stage, just keep advocating for yourself. Find that you know that clinician that will, will listen or do Heidi's thing

[Deborah Frances-White]

and cry or do.

[Dr. Rebecca Malik]

Or cry.

[Heidi Regan]

You must cry.

[Dr. Rebecca Malik]

I don't react like that.

[Heidi Regan]

You will when I'm done.

[Deborah Frances-White]

There's someone with a question in the front row.

[Dr. Rebecca Malik]

My daughter, I suspect, has similar symptoms and doesn't want to have the laparoscopy. Is there any movement forward that I know the scans are not conclusive. She's had a couple of scans and then it's like, well, we can't see it. But it still could be there. Is there going to be a better

[Deborah Frances-White]

way of diagnosing for young people than cutting them open? Yeah.

[Dr. Rebecca Malik]

Do you know, I. I wish I had a. A better answer to this, but, you know, again, it comes down to education and awareness. We. I could talk about this for hours. So apologies. Tell me to shut up if I'm speaking too much.

[Deborah Frances-White]

But the problem is you are an expert who's been invited here. You're a feminist.

[Dr. Rebecca Malik]

I'll settle in.

[Deborah Frances-White]

You've been given a mic, you're on a stage, there's lights on you, you're being filmed and you're a feminist bum.

[Dr. Rebecca Malik]

This is perfect.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Don't. Don't tell us to tell you to shut up. Literally. The UK expert invited onto a stage. Just pretend you're a man talking about who's an expert on some kind of crypto. Oh, my God. Pretend you're a man who knows nothing about crypto but has been asked to talk about it.

[Dr. Rebecca Malik]

I can tell you everything about it.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Here we go.

[Dr. Rebecca Malik]

What was the question again? I've gone off. Yes, we shouldn't. No, absolutely. We shouldn't be at a stage where we have to offer invasive surgery for a diagnosis. Invasive surgery should be the surgical treatment. So hopefully we'll be upskilling. And that's a big push of the BSG to try and get people more trained in scanning, mri and yes, there are other, hopefully more exciting ways of kind of biomarkers, blood markers, other scans that may diagnose it a little bit better. And I think you're right. I can't remember. Who was it that said the data around Tulip? I think it was you, isn't it? Everyone says one in ten. I mean, I say one in three or four if I ask. I mean, almost all of you here who have endometriosis, you will tell me that your symptoms started when you started your period. Very, very unusual. Like you said, diagnosis at 50. Oh, I'm sure you are told it can't happen after the menopause, etc, etc, or go have a baby, get pregnant, all of those kind of things. We need to kind of start moving away from that and really, you know, we still don't even know what causes endometriosis. That's the shameful, you know, that's the problem. We need to. We need to have more research and we need to.

[Deborah Frances-White]

I feel if CIS men got it, we would know by now. That's what I think. We would know by now. We would know by now. There's a male contraceptive pill, but it's not on the market because it makes them feel sad. What do you think it does to us? Oh, we feel great on the pill.

[Dr. Rebecca Malik]

Yeah.

[Deborah Frances-White]

We're all over it. And if we can't do the pill because we feel so sad, we have a coil fitted. Have you seen those? Any men in the audience, have you seen a coil? It looks like a mattress spring and they just shove it in and then drag it out with a. They attach a horse to it and then they just. Just tell the horse to run and that's how they get it out of you. And then they just say, we've got a Panadol, if that's helped. Did you take. Oh, someone told me recently they went to get their call taken out and they said, did you take a painkiller? And she went, no. Was I meant to. Oh, you didn't. Oh, well, this is the time now. It's just like we are medieval about CIS women's health and, you know, people of minority genders who also have those parts of their bodies, and you just go, bloody hell. Like, where are we? And a lot of it is that we have not been properly represented. And that is why the work that the three of you are doing is so important. And I would say, Heidi, doing a show about it, it's all these different ways. It's like, what, How. Where do you hold power, then? That's the place. That's the way that you. That's your sandwich board. Whether you're a politician, whether you're someone in the corporate world who's been mistreated, whether you're an incredibly fancy doctor or whether you're a comedian. And I know that I shouldn't have put that at the end, Heidi, because I'm like, realize, sorry. But that's what I am too.

[Heidi Regan]

So I think right at the start, please, I demand.

[Deborah Frances-White]

How can you advocate from your corner? Because it will take everybody. Any final questions? Because we've got to get out of here soon because we're all invited to the publisher. We should be busking, filling this silent tidy. This is our jobs. Make a joke. This is a long.

[Heidi Regan]

I wanted to bring up everyone should just get menopause again, fake menopause. But I was like, it's not the moment.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Did it menopause you though that fake menopause?

[Heidi Regan]

It was menopause. But is it got menopause, right?

[Sean Ju Pal]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Rebecca Malik]

So there's different ways of doing it, but the most common one, if it was an injection, it switches off your ovaries sometimes. We give a little bit of HRT back to.

[Heidi Regan]

I had hrt. Yeah. That's why it was fine. I had one hot flush, but has the. And I'm a cold little Aussie, so I was like, it's nice to be

[Deborah Frances-White]

warm, but has the menopause gone away again?

[Heidi Regan]

Yeah, because they stopped injecting me.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Wow.

[Heidi Regan]

So, you know, I'm on the pill every day.

[Sean Ju Pal]

Oh.

[Heidi Regan]

It's been the best three years of my life, apart from all the tragedy.

[Sean Ju Pal]

Yeah.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yeah. But the endometriosis is abated.

[Heidi Regan]

Yeah. I haven't had any pain since they started injecting me.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Wow.

[Heidi Regan]

I'm just saying I'm a bit of a fan.

[Deborah Frances-White]

We have a question here.

[Heidi Regan]

Hello. This is Another question for Dr. Rebecca. I was just wondering if you could speak a little bit about, I guess, like, treatment and reoccurrence. I sort of felt like I am being diagnosed through surgery and having some treatment then, but then that sort of feeling like, the book's closed and that's it. And then over the next period of time, starting to feel like, oh, I'm, you know, starting to feel symptoms and things again and not really knowing. I don't know, like, reoccurrence. How do you kind of, I guess, like, track that by yourself, or, you know, steps you can take to advocate for yourself again after, you know, taking 10 years to even get to the first surgery. Yeah, that's where I let it slide. After I had the first operation, then

[Sean Ju Pal]

I just sat there going, yeah, Well,

[Deborah Frances-White]

I think what Heidi taught us is don't let it slide.

[Sean Ju Pal]

Yeah.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Go back.

[Dr. Rebecca Malik]

Yeah.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Ask for this. Yeah.

[Dr. Rebecca Malik]

It's a great question, actually, because often on the nhs, which is fantastic, but we see you, we treat you, we just have huge waiting lists. Often it's okay, you're fine now, let's discharge you back to your gp. And that's because of the big workload. But I think the sad thing with endometriosis, and probably what we don't talk about enough, is that irrespective of however you treat it, the recurrence, so surgical treatment, the recurrence is anywhere between 5 to 40%. So there's a huge risk of it coming back. I mean, I'm sure it's even, you know, it's even higher than that. Some people respond really well to medical treatment, some people respond really well to surgical treatment. But I think the key thing is just monitoring the symptoms, advocating for yourself. If you've got recurrence of symptoms going back to your clinician, getting referred to a center and look at all the holistic things. You know, diet, zinc, magnesium. There's so many things that you can do for yourself that really, really work. But I think if you're getting a recurrence of symptoms, go back sooner rather than later.

[Heidi Regan]

Thank you.

[Deborah Frances-White]

So we've got to finish up, but we can chat more in the pub. But first I just want to say, Rebecca, is there anything you came to say that you didn't get to say?

[Dr. Rebecca Malik]

No, I just wanted to say thank you for the invite and thank you for talking about it. You know, I've spent eight years as a consultant, 20 odd years training, but there's a real positivity that I feel now. You know, when you're treating patients with endometriosis, often it can be such a challenge because you're advocating for patients, you're trying to improve the service. But it feels, it does feel really positive. And I think the more we talk about it, the more we push, we can only improve care. So, no, it's just a thank you for you guys to bringing it to the forefront.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Thank you. Rebecca, can I ask, Tulip, is there anything you came to say that you didn't get to say?

[Tulip Siddiq]

Well, Shanju, weren't you going to do the. Weren't you going to try and be a comedian and say the.

[Deborah Frances-White]

I'll try.

[Sean Ju Pal]

Sorry, I didn't need to try.

[Tulip Siddiq]

Go on, go on. What were you going to.

[Sean Ju Pal]

I mean, mine's.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Oh, God.

[Sean Ju Pal]

I was gonna do. I'm a feminist, but I meticulously maintain a diary of when I first got a gray hair on my head,

[Heidi Regan]

the

[Sean Ju Pal]

first gray hair on my sideburns. That was a sad day. My first gray pube. Who's been through that? That is a journey. And this is very relevant. Sorry, I need to stand up. This is very relevant because on Saturday 28th March, which you'll know is just a few days ago, I was in HSBC just getting some statements stamped for a visa application because I got an Indian passport. That's another story. And I was just minding my own business, trying to multitask and put my eyebrows. And I noticed, oh my God, I did actually have a gray eyebrow. But that's not the bit out of my chin, out of my. I mean, that's an all time low. Forget about battling Accenture. That was a dark moment and I just needed to carry on. So, yeah, that's mine.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Well, thank you very much. It's important to share as well. It's all awareness.

[Tulip Siddiq]

So mine was going to we discussed this before we came on the show. Mine was going to be very short. I'm a feminist, but I'm also a Labour politician. If that gets me fired, I'm coming to work for you.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Correct? Correct. Shonju, where can we go if we want to continue to support your campaign? Do you have a website?

[Sean Ju Pal]

I've been fighting this battle for six years with the support of my family, money that my immigrant parents worked hard for. I grew up on a council estate. We do not come from money. We've funded the whole thing. And then a year ago, I set up a Crowd justice page and I can't even tell you the first donation that came through. Any donation that comes through, I'm like, oh, my God, that's amazing. I need your help now. We need to fight this collectively. It's really hard to ask for money, but if you can make a small contribution, literally, if everyone in this room gave just, I don't know, even, like, five pounds, that would get us somewhere. We're going to have to fight this together, because it's our workplace rights that are being in jeopardy because of Accenture, a global corporate. And they're sending a message to me to say, how dare you? How dare you have the audacity, you brown women, to challenge a corporate beast? And we have to say, we're not going to take that. We're going to fight this and we're going to send a message to all the other corporates who think, do you know what? She's just going to back down now. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. So, yeah, we are going to win, but I'm going to need your help. Do you know that we've started a petition to include gynecological health conditions in the definition of disability? And I think. I mean, I don't know what we're on. We were on about 9,000 signatures earlier. Let's get that to 10,000. And then the government sitting right here after a swap. No, I'm joking.

[Tulip Siddiq]

I'm a mere backbencher. 10,000 signatures will get you a response from government. But 100,000 signatures means there'll be a proper debate in the House where the Minister will come. So if you could spread the word. And I will be tweeting, there will

[Deborah Frances-White]

definitely be a hundred thousand people and many, many more in this country who will want that. But we need to get it out there, so you need to share it

[Sean Ju Pal]

and we need to just say that this is happening anyway. So whatever happens with Accenture, in the case we're doing. This is it. The train has left the station. It's left the station. Right. We're on our way. So that's just great.

[Deborah Frances-White]

If you Google seanju, pal, S a N J U, P A L and crowdjustice, you'll find it. It'll come up. You can. Where can we follow you?

[Sean Ju Pal]

On Instagram, Shonju thinks. On Instagram, Shonju thinks.

[Deborah Frances-White]

S A N J U. Thanks.

[Sean Ju Pal]

I like LinkedIn. I didn't like LinkedIn for a long time. And again, I want to say, if you've been sacked from your job, LinkedIn is the most trauma inducing place. And I wasn't on there for a long time. And then I was like, you know what? I got things to say. So I went back on. And then I think I just want to say so many thank yous before I say the final thing, which is I got to thank my family. My sister's in the room. Oh, my God. Thank you. All my besties. Three of them are here. Nora, Juliet, Shaz and Dec. I kind of call you my bestie now. All my Endo sisters. And you're all there. You're all there. All of us warriors who are just fighting every day to advocate for ourselves to be heard and seen. Anyone who's written to me, anyone who's pledged on crowd justice, anyone who's liked or shared a post. You have no idea how happy I get when I see a like and I'm just like, I want more notifications. It makes me happy. Thank you. Everyone who has collaborated invited me to events like Carla. I got to speak in Parliament this month because of you. Your work is amazing. You've been fighting a battle for so long. Check out Carla's page as well. And Endometriosis foundation, my lawyers, Gerard Airy, who couldn't be here today. Oh, what a legend. And thank you to you, Debs, and the guilty feminist family who I've been following for 15 years. I am such an admirer of you. You are incredible.

[Deborah Frances-White]

I'm honestly mostly a numpty. But I do want to say you're working hard and the community will support you and this message can spread much wider. So many people have endometriosis or love someone who does or knows somebody who does and cares about them. So let's get the word spread out and then get supporting the crowdfunder and also just as much noise as there is online, it's much harder for them to, I think, appeal if lots of people are outraged about it. So let's keep going. Support Tulip, support Rebecca in what they're doing. And thank you very much to everyone who's come out. You've been a really terrific, attentive audience and you've asked lots of great questions. Heidi, do you have anything to plug?

[Heidi Regan]

Just follow me on Instagram and I have a mailing list that will tell you if I do the show or publish a book.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Great. That's Heidi Regan.

[Heidi Regan]

Heidi Regan.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Heidi Regan.

[Heidi Regan]

Don't go there. The hack. I know who she is.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Can I have a big round of applause for Dr. Rebecca Malik, Tulip Siddiq MP, the incredible Sean Ju Paul and my co host, Heidi Regan. You have been listen to the guilty foreigners with me, Deborah Francis White, guest co host Heidi Reagan, our very special guest, Shan Tupal, Tulip Siddiq and Dr. Rebecca Malik. The recording engineer was Grundy Lazimra. The Guilty Ford Sleep Tube is composed by Mark Hodge. The producer was Tom Solinsky for the Spontaneity Shop. Thanks to China Dicio Zainab, Mohammed, Ned Sedgwick and everyone at the Bloom Stream Theatre as well as all of you. For listening more information about this and other episodes, visit guiltyfamilist.com. Thank you so much. We've been the guilty feminist. I mean, Deborah Frances White, you've been wonderful. Good night.