480. Keep Palantir Out Of Our NHS with Susan Wokoma, Dr Matt Mahmoudi and Linnéa Freear - part one

Summary

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The Guilty Feminist

Episode 480: "Keep Palantir Out Of Our NHS" (Part One)

Host: Deborah Frances-White
Guests: Susan Wokoma, Dr. Matt Mahmoudi, Linnéa Freear
Date: April 27, 2026

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Overview

In this special live episode from the Museum of Comedy in London, Deborah Frances-White and co-host Susan Wokoma take a deep and darkly hilarious dive into Palantir’s controversial relationship with the NHS. They're joined by AI surveillance expert Dr. Matt Mahmoudi and NHS worker/activist Linnéa Freear, both of whom break down how the US surveillance-tech giant Palantir became entwined with Britain’s most beloved public institution. The panel discusses what’s at stake for privacy, democracy, and patient care, especially against a backdrop of rising authoritarianism at home and abroad.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: Why We’re Talking About Palantir

• Deborah frames the episode around our “terrifying” political moment: anti-LGBTQ+ rhetoric, authoritarian creep, threats to democracy, and the chilling promise that “we are meeting more frequently in basements…to get ready for the point when we’re all under the fascist regime.” (21:00)
• The necessity of grassroots, collective action is emphasized as both defensive and empowering; “I think we’re rising up now. I feel we’re ready to take them on.” – Susan (32:06)
• The episode is pitched as both an urgent wake-up call and an explorative, solution-seeking session—with generous doses of humor.

2. Palantir: Name, Origins, and Mindset

• Deborah explains the name's origins: from Tolkien’s “Lord of the Rings,” palantíri were crystal balls used for surveillance and communication—eventually corrupted and weaponized by Sauron. "Inadvertent commas, the Stones could not lie, but Sauron used them to show only the worst case scenarios, ensuring his enemies felt helpless." (22:29)
• Palantir was founded and named by Peter Thiel, notorious for his anti-democracy sentiments, and Alex Karp, who speaks openly about “scaring adversaries” and even “killing them on occasion.”
  • Quote – Deborah: “His exact words. The West’s primary way to create peace, he says, is to scare our adversaries...while they’re seeing their mistress.” (25:00)
• Peter Thiel famously argued, "I no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible," showcasing a worldview fundamentally opposed to transparency and accountability. (24:50)

3. Palantir’s Business Model: Infiltration and Normalization

• Dr. Matt Mahmoudi: Palantir builds products primarily for state surveillance, intelligence, immigration enforcement, and military targeting. “I hunt bad tech companies for a living with my Amnesty hat, of which Palantir is perhaps the worst.” (37:18)
• Early contracts with US agencies like ICE facilitated mass deportations, raids, and data-led targeting of immigrants and minorities. (38:18)
  • “They would have mirrored, put into conversation different databases...then used AI to glean insights about who might be a possible threat now or in the future.” – Matt (41:14)
• Palantir’s tools (like “Foundry” and “Gotham”) are not about evidence in the legal sense, but about combining datasets to “cosplay what could have happened,” not what did. (43:01)

4. How Palantir Entered the NHS Through a Backdoor

• Linnéa describes a pre-COVID influence campaign: Palantir UK head Louis Mosley (grandson of infamous fascist Oswald Mosley) had private dinners with NHS leaders and Boris Johnson. (47:48)
  • Fact: Palantir provided its software to the NHS for £1 during the COVID crisis, exploiting emergency powers with no procurement or consultation.
• Six months later, the contract expanded to £23.5 million, then eventually a £330 million Federated Data Platform contract.
  • “They bought their way in...Mosley sent round a document saying ‘we are buying our way in.’” – Linnéa (49:12)

5. NHS Data, Privacy Risks, and Political Consequences

• Federated Data Platform: A system meant for safer, faster sharing of patient data across NHS Trusts (an attractive idea, if not for the company building it).
  • “We are not anti tech…but we absolutely do not need a company like Palantir facilitating this.” – Linnéa (51:14)
• Why Dangerous?
  • Palantir’s medical data has already been used in the US to assist ICE in raids and deportations. (52:19)
  • UK right-wing party Reform has announced explicit plans to combine NHS data with Home Office, DVLA, banks, and more to identify and deport “illegal” migrants.
    • “Reform UK have explicitly said, we would take data from the NHS and we would use it to deport people.” – Susan (55:30)
• Data “anonymization” is a myth; Palantir, as a spy-tech company, can re-identify individuals and uses the data for predictive policing and targeted harm, not just care.

6. The Dangers of Surveillance-Tech in Care

• You can’t combine care and control: “You cannot be in both the business of care and the business of control...That is absolutely—those must be separate.” – Susan (56:32)
• Palantir’s police contracts in the UK involve data on health, political beliefs, trade union membership, and sex life—collected via NHS infrastructure. (57:21)
  • Potential for this data to be weaponized against rape survivors, victims of violence, and campaigners.
  • “Victims’ data might end up being used against them, scrutinizing them, re-traumatizing and re-victimizing them...” – Linnéa (58:43)

7. Palantir’s Military Connections and Global Harm

• Palantir provided “mission critical” support to the IDF (Israeli Defense Forces) for targeting in Gaza, including geospatial intelligence, analytics, and predictive battlefield software.
  • “They continually talk about providing tools for targeting...and are unapologetic about supporting grave crimes against Palestinians.” – Matt (61:50)
• By extension: “If they can have complete impunity to do whatever they want just because people are Arab, they are going to do it here...If we don’t stand up when we see it happening there, how will it spread?” – Susan (63:20)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Deborah Frances-White:
  • “[Palantir’s leaders] are the ones we should be highly wary of allowing into the heart of our government and society, and especially our socialized medical care.” (26:00)
  • “I would love these guys NOT to be looking at the results of my blood tests...just be in a separate pot from the two men in the world that the robots are most scared of.” (28:30)
• Dr. Matt Mahmoudi:
  • “Foundry is effectively a mirror...as large as a nation state...AI gleans who might be a possible threat now or in the future.” (41:14)
  • “It’s about finding proxy data that cosplays what could have happened. With AI, the computer says it’s right, so therefore it’s right.” (43:10)
  • “You want a company that’s unapologetic about grave crimes...processing your data in this country? How can we find that acceptable?” (62:14)
• Linnéa Freear:
  • “The original intention [of sharing NHS data] is really good...the problem is Palantir… they’re not really that relevant to your direct care.” (51:14, 53:08)
  • “Medical data is some of the most personal, confidential data we have. Synonymized is not anonymized—don’t believe otherwise.” (53:56)
  • “Palantir are not a dutiful processor...they’ll facilitate ICE-style deportations if the data controller orders it. And they help pick futur[ist] controllers—by pumping money into right-wing political parties.” (54:47)
• Susan Wokoma:
  • “A pound? Is that true?...Has nobody seen Pinocchio?...This is not good Fantasy Island, is it?” (45:58)
  • “You cannot be in both the business of care and the business of control.” (56:32)
• Best audience moment: The "Nepo fascist" remark about Oswald Mosley’s grandson running Palantir UK. (48:08)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Opening Skits & "I’m a Feminist But..." Segment: 06:13–11:48
• Deborah’s Monologue on Palantir’s Name, History, and Philosophies: 21:30–31:33
• Panel Introductions & Context: 36:31–38:01
• Palantir’s Origins; US Involvement; ICE Raids: 38:15–43:10
• How Palantir Got into the NHS (COVID-era infiltration): 45:05–51:13
• Federated Data Platform: What It Is & Why It Matters: 51:12–53:08
• Privacy Threats, Synonymisation, and Political Ramifications: 53:09–55:30
• Palantir, Policing, and Special Data Categories Sharing: 56:42–59:26
• Palantir and the Israeli Military (Gaza, Lebanon): 60:01–63:20
• Closing, Preview of Q&A in Part Two: 64:07–65:03

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Tone and Language

The episode is classic Guilty Feminist: witty, irreverent, warm, and buzzing with righteous urgency. Jokes about Nando’s, “Peri-Peri Menopause,” and “Pinocchio and the Wolf” set against searing anger at data abuses and political complicity. Humor is ever-present but never softens the severity of the topic.

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For Listeners Who Haven’t Heard It

This episode will leave you better informed—and possibly alarmed—about the future of digital privacy, the rising intersection of surveillance, profit, and state power, and how all this threatens marginalized people most of all. It makes the case that the NHS’s data is not just a technical or administrative concern, but a battleground for the rights, safety, and dignity of millions.

To hear audience Q&A and further action steps, go to Part Two in your podcast feed.

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Transcript

[Deborah Frances-White]

Get the ice cream, love big freezer.

[Linnea Friar]

It's by the peas.

[Susan McCo]

Some things are really best not to put off, like defrosting the freezer or if you're a landlord, sending a copy of the new Government Information Sheet to your existing tenants. You must do this by 31 May or risk a fine. Make sure you're up to date with the new laws. Find the information [e-mail] rentingischanging hello guilty feminists. I want to talk about something that half the population experiences and the other half should probably understand better gynecological health. Because so many of us grew up with patchy information, some pretty weird myths and general feeling that we should probably just not talk about it. That's why I'm delighted to tell you about Bloody Powerful the Taboo Busting Guide to Periods, Menopause and Everything in between by Dr. Brook van der Molen, illustrated by Hazel Mead and published by Cambridge University Press. This book is a warm, clear and genuinely empowering guide to everything you probably didn't get taught in school, from understanding your periods to navigating menopause and all the confusing questions in between. Dr. Brooke van der Molen is a practicing gynaecology doctor. You might know her online as the OB GYN mum, and she answers so many of the questions we've all quite quietly googled at 2am it's also beautifully illustrated by Hazel Mead, which makes the whole thing feel accessible rather than clinical. If you'd like to learn more or give it to someone who deserves better information about their body, visit cambridge.org bloodypowerful and you can get 20% off with the code bloodypowerful20 at checkout. Because knowledge about our bodies shouldn't be taboo, it should be bloody powerful. Hello guilty feminists. We have an incredibly special episode for you today and it's about Palantir. And we have some really, really impressive guests. We have Dr. Matt Mahmoudy, who is an AI surveillance specialist, and Linnea Freer, who works for the NHS. It is a truly brilliant episode. I encourage you to listen to all of it. It's in two parts. Don't miss any of it. It's really great stuff. Also, this Thursday night, the 30th of April, we've got a very special show at Leicester Square Theatre in the West End. It's with the Nerve News and some of you will have heard that this week the European Union is changing the definition of sexual assault. And you've also heard about these terrible websites right front and center of the news at the moment. Where men are learning to drug women. That's an extension of the Giselle Pellico story. Her autobiography's out also. The Epstein files are back in the headlines. Rightly as there has been no justice. These are the things that we are going to talk about, but we're not going to be graphic. We're not going to be describing individual crimes. We're going to be talking about how has this happened, what to the power structures. Where do we go from here? How do we get justice? How do we change things? Our guests are the brilliant Carol Caudwallada and she was one of the journalists that left the Guardian and started the Nerve News. So this is a co pro with the Nerve News. She's gonna be bringing Lucia Osbourne Crowley, who was one of the only journalists in the world allowed at the Ghislaine Maxwell trial. We also have the brilliant Riolina, very funny comedian, co hosting Radio 4 favorite. She's brilliant. And we have as well because it will be an evening where we're talking about empowerment and not getting lost in the dreadful weeds of all of this. So we want it to be a big, entertaining, guilty feminist classic show. So we've got an incredible double act soul band called gj. Check them out. They have an enormous following and they're really, really brilliant. We've also got the brilliant Dan Whitlam, who's a performance poet and musician. Now, many of you will know Dan from social media. He does really beautiful poems and he's often sitting on a train. The reason I asked Dan is because he writes very openly and vulnerably and emotionally. And he and I were talking about why it is that men don't seem to be talking about this, posting about this, engaging with this, engaging with other men. I think if what women were perpetrating such crimes, we would be holding seminars, we would be talking, we would be asking each other about how we were feeling about it. And so I do want to invite men into the conversation. So I've asked Dan to write some poetry about this specifically and especially and I'm hoping it's something that we will be able to share with other men and post and get conversations going among men. Because there's an assumption that any problem that's gendered is women's problem to solve and it really isn't. So this show is going to be joyful, entertaining, but it's also going to deep dive talk about some very, very serious things with two of the most compelling, wise and well researched journalists working in our country today. If you can possibly come along. Thursday 30th April, this Thursday. There are some low price tickets available. Go to guiltyfeminist.com, click on Live shows and you can see all the other shows we've got coming up as well. And now on with this very special podcast. I'm a feminist, but whenever a woman starts talking to me about her perimenopause, all I happens a lot more than you'd think. All I can think is Nando's lemon and herb, please. I don't like it hot. Which is unfortunate because that's where perimenopause is going. And then I think, what do they call it in Brazil? Do they call it Peri Peri Menopause? And in that long stream of consciousness that's going out of my head while this poor woman is talking to me about her hot flushes or her feelings or whatever, I just think I haven't heard anything you've said. All I'm thinking about now is, why is it called after Nando's?

[Deborah Frances-White]

I do actually call it the Peri Peri.

[Susan McCo]

Do you?

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yeah, that's what I call it because you gotta make it cute. Locked shoulder. What? Smelling cigarette smoke?

[Susan McCo]

What?

[Deborah Frances-White]

That's two of the symptoms of Peri Peri. If you don't know, you will. Okay, I've got two. Medically, I'm a feminist, so here's one of them. Okay, so I. Why is it that I turn up here, I immediately feel too comfortable, and then I start telling you stuff like. Like this, I'm a feminist, but when I recently had surgery to try and get my coil removed, my surgeon said, wow, you've got a really tight vagina. And I was like, ow, I've got a foreign object inside me that you're trying to rip out by threads. But ew, tight.

[Susan McCo]

It's tight.

[Linnea Friar]

That's what she said.

[Deborah Frances-White]

That's what she said.

[Susan McCo]

I'm a feminist. But now I rather competitively feel I need to tell you my vagina is so tight, I need a special speculum. And at first I thought, this person's just new. They don't know what they're. No. Every single one has to say, we have to go to another room to get a special tiny speculum. Now I just tell them, I go, you're going to need the little long guy, because there is no way you're getting that big guy in there. Not to brag, I wouldn't.

[Deborah Frances-White]

You know what?

[Susan McCo]

Deb's?

[Deborah Frances-White]

Well done, us.

[Susan McCo]

Yeah. You know, yeah. And our little dials and our tiny vaginas.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Tiny little lady vaginas. Okay, I'm at this, my other medical one. I'm a feminist. I'm. I'm really sorry to my boyfriend. I am a feminist. But when I had to have the actual surgery to get it out, because basically it. It. Okay, backstory. So whoever put the coil in the very first time 10 years ago decided to completely cut the threads. Like a lunatic. Like a lunatic. So this lovely surgeon was like, ah, no, you're gonna have to go under. And I was terrified. I don't like general anesthetic. I don't know many people who do love it. Except for my friend Danielle, who was like, oh, my God, I love it.

[Susan McCo]

It's just magic.

[Deborah Frances-White]

You go to sleep, you wake up, it's done. And that did actually help. I was like, I'm going on a journey. But yes, whilst I. I was talking to the doctor head of my surgery that I paid five grand for. Oh, oh, you thought I got it on the nhs? No, I didn't. I had to pay five grand. So I paid five grand to get it out. And when the doctor came in to have, like, a little consultation before I went into theater, Deborah was with me because she's in real life, my best friend, she was there. And I had to send Deborah out of the room in order to tell the doctor that even though I don't want anyone psychotically, like, cutting off all the threads, could they trim it just a little bit? Because my boyfriend is massive and he will feel them during sex. And I felt like I couldn't say that in front of my lady friend. And I don't feel that was very feminist. But then the moment you came back

[Susan McCo]

in, I immediately told you that was the hilarious bit. I actually said, should I step outside so you can talk to a doctor? And she went, if you could, that'd be great. And then when I came back in, she said, I only sent you outside. Cause I wanted to tell him about my boyfriend's massive penis. But the funniest thing was, I'm a feminist. But the thing I laughed at most that day was that somebody came in and Susie started launching in something about sex. And the person just went, oh, well, I'm the orderly, but I'll go the doctor.

[Deborah Frances-White]

I'll go to the private sector.

[Susan McCo]

And then he just ran out.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Ran, ran, ran.

[Susan McCo]

We never saw him again.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Actually, Scrap. I don't think that's an. I'm a feminist, but I think that's extremely feminist. So I take that one back. You Got another one.

[Susan McCo]

I'm a feminist. But the show started a little bit late because I was putting on these extravagant earrings

[Deborah Frances-White]

and my final. I'm a feminist. But was, Look, I'm a feminist, but when I watched Wuthering Heights, I wanted to see more tits. Let me get into it. I just wanted. I just wanted it to. There was a lot that people didn't like about it. I'm not in that clan. I just wanted it to be hornier. I went in with popcorn and a drink and I was like, I just fancy something horny in the hands of a woman. I want a woman to do horniness. I don't want to see men do horniness. You don't know how to do it. I want to see a woman just give me horniness.

[Linnea Friar]

And it was just.

[Deborah Frances-White]

It was flat, bruv. So that's my unfamilist part. Thank you very much.

[Susan McCo]

I found it quite sexy.

[Deborah Frances-White]

No, you didn't, did you?

[Susan McCo]

Yeah, I did.

[Deborah Frances-White]

What, bitch?

[Susan McCo]

There was just some bits.

[Deborah Frances-White]

What bit you have to say now? Oh, no, the bit when she was looking through the. In the ground, that was kind of hot.

[Susan McCo]

I mean, I could tell that was the only hot bit. I could tell you more, Susie, but the audience will have to step outside. Sorry, sorry, guys. Do you mind if I just spend some time talking to Susie about everything that I found sexy?

[Deborah Frances-White]

We'll talk about it after.

[Susan McCo]

Live from the Museum of Comedy in London, the Spontaneity Shop presents the Guilty Bluminous with me, Double Cross the sponsor, guest co hosts Isabel Comer and our very special guests, Matt Mahoude and Linnea Freear talking about Palantir at the nhs. It's very homemade here, isn't it? In the basement. I just have to stand at the door and shout my own name at you, trying to convince you that in some way, shape or form, this is theatre. But listen, we've started doing these guilty feminist shows in basements around the country just to get ready for the point when we're all under the fascist regime and we have to be in underground spaces. I think it's good because at that point it won't be safe to assemble in any larger groups. So here we are. Now we've really decided to do them. I do think it feels a bit grassroots. Feels a bit sexy, doesn't it? Feels a bit like we're all in here together. Yes, totally. Yes. Excellent. Did you come in here and go, it's not what I expected. If you come to see us at the Royal Albert hall before the pandemic. And now you're like, oh, what happened? Genuinely, what happened was, I mean, obviously you can't play the Royal Albert hall every week, and let's just share. And I will be soon, but not quite yet. But really, we're meeting more frequently in smaller, more underground feeling spaces. In the old days, we used to do, like, a big show on, like, somebody's book, and now we're going, how do we stop totalitarianism? We're genuinely terrified. Christian nationalism, it's got its cold, frosty fingers, like, through our communities, coming over, planting itself in our churches, like churches that are sometimes not well attended, and they come along and go, we can make this well attended. How? Man Escape talk. Excellent. So we are in a really, really strange time. Like, we're seeing a lot of anti LGBTQ rhetoric and, in fact, in some cases, legislation. We were going forward. Progress was going forward. Have you seen Louis Theroux manosphere documentary? As disappointed as you were, you were still horrified. And I feel. I know what I'm saying. I know what I'm saying. It's. It's. We feel like things are changing, and we just got sick of being in sort of, you know, quite nice theaters telling each other things we already know while we looked out the window and saw things getting some slowly worse and then more recently, rapidly worse. So we thought, okay, we've got to find out the answers to the questions, so we need to know. So we've, you know, I've literally been googling who knows the most about fascism. And, like, I found an old man who wasn't working anymore, but he was the number one fascism expert. And he said, oh, I'm mostly professor emeritus now. I just sort of, you know, do my own thing. And I was like, would you come? And he said, literally said. He wrote back in minutes saying, finally, I have lived long enough for the feminists to come calling. So we've done a lot of really interesting shows where we're looking at this problem from different angles. We're also running open space events to try and come together with community projects. We're figuring out other ways of going about it. I think sometimes we think the ways we've seen modeled are the ways politically, but they're not because they haven't worked very well. So what would shift the dial is what I'm interested in. What would make people change their minds? What would make people who've given up on democracy decide that it was worth another go before this terrifying time? You liked feminism, but you didn't probably do it on a Friday night. Friday night was for partying. Tuesday lunchtime, bit of feminism. These days, you're like, I could take a beer into the feminism. I could get slowly drunk when I hear about Palantir taking over the nhs. In fact, I might need to get slowly drunk while I hear about that. But also, ideally, could you have some ideas how we could get them the fuck out of the nhs? Well, tonight you're in luck. That's right. We've got a very exciting show with some genuine experts on how to do that on, first of all, what Palantir is, and second of all, what they're doing. And third of all, how do we fix this? I'm so excited about the guest tonight. I genuinely, genuinely am. First of all, though, I have got my traditional monologue, which I have just written, it's got some jokes in it. So if you think to yourself, I think that was a joke, understand, I wrote it today and I haven't had a chance to workshop it in front of an audience yet. So we're on the side of generosity for the podcast at home because the people at home, they're on the tube or something, or they're doing their ironing. I don't know what I think feminists do. Well, who does ironing anymore? What year do I think this is? It's 1955 and you're the little lady's doing the housework, ironing her husband's shirt while listening to some nonsense about women's liberation. Whatever it is that you do. What do you do when you listen to guilty feminist? Just walk the dogs. Walk the dogs. Exactly. You're walking your dog. You're walking your gender neutral dog in an empowered way. You're not ironing if you are ironing, by the way. That's your choice and I don't want to criticize it. Some people find it therapeutic and they like to look well groomed. I'm not here to judge your ironing. If you do it, just give us a cheer if anyone irons anymore. If you still iron. There you go. You've wooed cheerfully, then proudly. You're proud of your ironing. Have you ironed anything you're wearing now? You haven't ironed what you're in. We're not good enough to see the ironed clothes. Interesting. We don't pass that kind of muster. I get it, I get it, I get it. You've come in the crumpled clothes for us. But if you were on a date, would you wear the ironing ironed Clothes, maybe. Maybe. Are you on a date? I don't want to assume you're not on a date. Lots of people do come here on dates. Straight dates. Men buy the tickets. That's true. That's true. There's always somebody. Yeah. It's a man on a third date going, look how safe I am. Fun, but also feminist. I'd go home with me if I were a feminist. I'm a feminist. Are you a feminist? Just give us a cheer if you're on a date. Nobody will say that now. It's not true. People come here with their mums as well. Anyone here with their mum or with their daughter? Child, person, any relatives? Yes, you are. I'm here with my daughter. Oh, you're here with your daughter. Are you a dad with your daughter? Now, see, if that had been a mum with her daughter, people would have gone, yeah,

[Deborah Frances-White]

sure.

[Susan McCo]

Seems like a good mom and daughter activity. Should they give me clear instructions not to speak tonight? So the dad has just said, if you're listening at home. If you're listening at home, the dad in question has just said. She did give me clear instructions not to speak tonight. This is a daughter who is taking her father to a feminist show for some instruction. He has immediately broken the first rule. First rule, sir, what's your name? Steve. Steve. Steve. You were told not to speak, Steve. And you've done it again. No, I'm kidding, I'm kidding, I'm kidding. Did your daughter invite you to this? She did. So my daughter lives in Australia. Your daughter lives in Australia? I do live there, but I work in Saudi Arabia and this was an opportunity. We had to meet in London and she booked it. I said, we need to get down to this show. We need to get down. You said, we need to get down to this. So just for the people at home, Steve is from Australia. There's a lot of people from a lot of different countries, but they've met in London. And Steve's daughter, you have a name. This is a feminist show. We can't call you Steve's daughter.

[Linnea Friar]

Tash.

[Susan McCo]

Tash.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yes.

[Susan McCo]

For the Gold Coast. For the Gold Coast. Oh, my God. I was born in Brisbane and raised on the Gold Coast. I am basically Muriel from Muriel's Wedding. Left earlier. Went further. Wow. Wow. So you're from the Caucasus.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Which part?

[Linnea Friar]

Surfers Paradise.

[Susan McCo]

Surfer spirit. Where'd you go to school? Oh, no, no.

[Linnea Friar]

Immigrated all over the shop.

[Susan McCo]

Oh, all okay. These people have a mysterious past and present, don't they? No fixed abode. Are you spies? Yes. Or, no, just be honest. There was a long pause and then Tash went, no. Hello. I think I know why they're at the Palantir show. They want to hear what we're saying. And just to be clear, this is a pro Palantir show. We love Palantir and we're all about having it in our nhs. It's very important. Kidding, kidding. No, I'm sure you're here for very feminist reasons. Tash, you've brought your dad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah. So I have to do a topical monologue at the top. I have no chance to workshop it. So if you think that might be a joke, laugh, not sarcastically. Don't overdo it. The audience at home can tell. But when you're. If someone's listening at home, they're more likely to have a nice time if they feel the audience is there. You know, they don't just listen for me, they listen for you. That's true, that's true. It's never as good if it's on zoom or something, because they feel like they hear you. They feel. Well, I'm amongst an army of angry, motivated, joyful, like, cackling witch feminists. So that's what we're looking for tonight. Okay, wench like behavior. Can you deliver that, Steve? Steve's gonna give it his best shot. He sounds confident, as men always do.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Now,

[Susan McCo]

It's just a fact. I'm not trying to take your confidence, Steve. I'd like more of it now. So tonight, Palantir. The origin of this word palantir, it is one of several indestructible crystal balls from the Lord of the Rings. Now, I am not a Lord of the Rings person, so I had to look it up, and many of the listeners will not be. So this is for you. If you already know about Lord of the Rings, you will know this. But try and listen to it as if you're hearing it for the first time, please. I think it's quite important that you listen to this with fresh ears. Palantir, the company we're talking about tonight, the AI surveillance company we're talking about tonight, was named after Palantir in the Lord of the Rings. Created by elves, these seven black spheres allowed users to communicate telepathically and view events far away in space or time. Though they can be used to deceive users, they were intended for communication. But in the Third Age, they became instruments of despair, corruption, and psychological warfare, manipulated by someone called Sauron, who doesn't sound good. Uses, according to the Internet, uses of a Palantir. Forcing Saruman to betray his purpose. Driving Denethor to madness and suicide. Is Denethor pronounced correctly? Who's my Tolkien? Could you be my Tolkien consultant? Yeah. If I say anything wrong, could you just please raise your hand? Yeah, I'll take that again. Driving Denethor to madness and suicide. The psychological torture of Pippin. Is that correct? Because Pippin's from a musical. Okay, fine.

[Linnea Friar]

The paragraph he took is the character's full name.

[Susan McCo]

Thank you. Fostering despair through truth. Inadvertent commas. The Stones could not lie, but Sauron used them to show only the worst case scenarios, ensuring his enemies felt helpless. This paralyzed the leaders of the west with fear rather than informing them effectively. That is what Peter Thiel, American entrepreneur, venture capitalist, and conservative political activist, decided to name his new venture in 2003. Imagine reading that and then thinking, yeah, Palantir Inc. That's what I want to call it. Palantir Proprietary Limited. Imagine. Imagine going, that's the name of my limited company. That's what I want to put out into the world. Palantir's primary platforms, in case you're thinking this man sounds like a Batman villain, include Gotham, used by Defense and intelligence, and that is code for war. And Spying Foundry, used to integrate data for analytics and aip, artificial intelligence platform. Peter Thiel wrote, the best entrepreneurs know this. Every great business is built around a secret that's hidden from the outside. A great company is a conspiracy to change the world. When you share your secret, the recipient becomes a fellow conspirator. Let's go shopping. By contrast, yesterday, Donald Trump said in a speech, millions of Americans have small businesses, including restaurants, dry cleaners, corner stores. What is a corner store? I've never heard that term. I know what a corner store is, but I've never heard it described a corner store. Who the hell wrote that, please? And more. The reason for this Donald Trump quote will become clear. Peter Thiel said in late 2025, the Bible says that one man will take over the entire world. He only has one lifetime to do that. How on earth can he achieve it, one might ask. Peter Thiel. He also wrote, I no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible. Thiel has stated democratic process is slow and inefficient, arguing that technology offers a way to unilaterally change the world without needing to win public consensus. Last week, by contrast, Donald Trump said to a reporter, I have nothing against the Pope, but I have to do what's right. I'm not fighting with him. I'm not fighting with him. The Pope made a statement. He says Iran can have a nuclear weapon. I say Iran cannot have a nuclear weapon. Footnote the Pope did not say Iran can have a nuclear weapon. Alex Karp, the CEO of Palantir, A second man A second man, not the founder. The CEO has stated Palantir's goal is to ensure the west is tough enough to, when it's necessary, scare enemies and, on occasion, kill them. His exact words. The West's primary way to create peace, he says, is to scare our adversaries when they wake up, when they go to bed, while they're seeing their mistress. Giving you an insight into his normal this week, by contrast, Donald Trump posted a picture of himself as Jesus and then claimed he thought the image depicted him as a doctor. No one could understand that until his press secretary, Karen Levitt, claimed the picture had been doctored. Then we realized what Trump had very probably been told to say was the picture had been doctored and he forgot and said, I'm a doctor. I for one, was very glad that Caroline Levitt explained it was doctored, because up until that moment, I thought we were looking at an untouched photograph revealing that Donald Trump is in fact our messianic Lord and Savior, the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ. You can imagine how relieved I was to discover that the image was, in fact, doctored. AI image of Cheese what? So I'm going to ask you now, when you hear these quotes, who are you more scared of? The men bringing in a new world order of 24. 7 surveillance who see fear and control as one and the same and highly desirable and have no hesitation about killing you on occasion or corner store Jesus shouting Get off my lawn. At the Pope, I would suggest the men who invented and run Palantir are the ones we should be highly wary of allowing into the heart of our government and society, and especially our socialized medical care. When I Googled Alex Karp, by the way, the Google AI option came up and I don't like AI. I don't have any AI apps. I don't use it. I avoid looking at that whole Google thing. I try and get rid of it. But I did have to say I wondered what AI thought of its own Grand Wizard. So I just looked. I looked down at what it said and I swear, I swear to God, in the top list of things about Alex Karp was Alex Karp is known for his unfiltered, sometimes batshit crazy demeanor. You can look at it, you can look at it. Batshit car crazy demeanor Alex, that's what AI is saying. It's warning us. We are scared. The robots are scared. So I did put in, is Peter Thiel scary? Google AI said Peter Thiel as a verb. That was a top. That was a category. And then it said Thiel is known for being vindictive, with his name becoming a verb for orchestrating the total destruction of someone or something, such as his successful clandestine funding of the lawsuit that bankrupt Gorkha Media. That's what AI Google AI told me. It told me, do you think he's scary? His name is a fucking verb for destroying others for fun. And then finally, he has previously stated that the extension of the vote to women has made the country less democratic and free. So letting half the population vote has made it less democratic. How is that? That's the definition of democracy. So I personally would love these guys not to be looking at the results of my blood tests. And I'm okay with them not knowing I have a neuroma under my left foot. I'm just thinking they might be planning a room 101 at some point and if they find out what I'm allergic to and or are scared of, it's not gonna be great for me. So I would prefer that all the things inside my body, my blood tests, my DNA, all that, just, just, just, just, just be in a separate pot from the, from the two men in the world that the robots are most scared of and are trying to warn us about. They say batshit crazy. He's batshit crazy. Deborah, you never talk to me. You won't look at me. You don't like AI, but I'm telling you, you've only asked once. You've only looked at one's batshit crazy. Batshit fucking crazy. And on that note, just gonna go out on a large limb and say, I do not like them. Sam. I am. And are we ready to start the show? Please welcome to the stage my incredible CO host, Susan McCo.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Hi, everyone.

[Susan McCo]

Hello. Ah, this is Susan.

[Deborah Frances-White]

That's a question in it.

[Linnea Friar]

Yeah.

[Susan McCo]

How were you before the monologue? And how are you after the monologue?

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yeah, that's what it is. That's actually the correct. No, that was great. Well done. You're very, very good at this. Yeah, no, I'm all right. I mean, I. As soon as you asked me to come along today. I mean, I've got a lot of questions as well for guests to se. But, but yeah, no, I'm terrified. I'm absolutely just constantly terrified. How are you?

[Susan McCo]

How you doing? Absolutely Terrified, but also feeling like it's so terrifying people are going to rise up, I think. So I feel like we're rising up now. I think we're kind of, you know, we're ready to take them on and we are taking them on. And so I feel very excited about tonight's show because I feel like it's. We're addressing it, we're looking at it. I think the worst thing is to look away and go pretend it's not happening. I listen to an incredible podcast today about the why Palantir cannot be compatible for. It was about therapists. Yeah. Psychotherapists who work for the nhs. And you've got to listen to it. I'll advertise it later. But it was absolutely brilliant. It was basically saying therapy, psychotherapy is based on the idea that you end up trusting the therapist so much you will tell them anything. You'll tell them your worst thoughts. I don't think I've. I'm a feminist, but I don't think I've ever been very good at therapy because I just tell them a story.

[Deborah Frances-White]

That's a bit of you. That's a bit of you. You do like a. You do an Edinburgh half hour.

[Susan McCo]

I just think they're going to judge me and I just don't know them well enough. So I tell them the sad things that have happened to. To me. But then I probably cast myself in a slightly. And of course you have to say some things that are bad about you. You do, but. Or they don't believe. Yeah, they don't believe you if it's all, you know, one sided. Yeah, but I just probably massage just the. Just put myself in a slightly like a lavender light. Yeah. Harsh light of day. And what he said is, you mustn't do that now. No, no, no. He said no when real therapy. I've never had real therapy because I've never been that honest. But he said a therapist is meant to get. And he said if somebody is scared or they're scared of what they might do or scared of what someone might do, they're not going to tell you if. But they'll act like they're telling you. But he basically. He was calling me out personally through the podcast, right. And saying if you think that your data is being stored, even it might be encrypted. He said that data might never be used for anything. Palantir may never touch it in any way, may only be through the therapist. But the, but the, the patient now contextually cannot trust that.

[Deborah Frances-White]

No.

[Susan McCo]

And he said. So it totally changes our job. He said, as soon as Palantir is there and exists and the patient knows and the patient should know because they absolutely should not keep that from them because that's a trust breach. He said you can't do proper therapy anymore because the most vulnerable people, especially those who've got families in countries where it's being used for warfare, just can't. They can't, he said. They won't. They just won't. Even if they think they're telling you the truth, they're going to kind of massage it in there in a little way, hold back, but you'll never know because they'll, they'll act like they are telling you. So it's really, really, really, really interesting stuff. I thought so. You must listen to this podcast if you can. Study and play, come together on a Windows 11 PC and for a limited time, college students get the best of both worlds. Get the unreal college deal. Everything you need to study and play with select Windows 11 PCs. Eligible students get a year of Microsoft 365 Premium and a year of Xbox game Pass ultimate with a custom color Xbox wireless controller. Learn [e-mail] studentoffer while supplies last ends June 30th terms at aka Ms. CollegePC. Our first guest today is assistant professor at the University of Cambridge, where he works on racialized borders in digital cities. He has led Amnesty International's research on biometrics from New York City to Palestine, and he is an AI surveillance expert. Please welcome to the stage Dr. Matt Mah. Joining him is a radiotherapy physicist based in Manchester. She is part of Health Workers for a Free Palestine, whose primary campaign is to cancel Palantir's contract with the nhs. Please welcome Linnea Friar. Hello. Hello. Hello, Matthew and Linnea, can you just tell us a little bit about yourselves? Yes.

[Dr. Matt Mahmoudy]

Do you want to go?

[Linnea Friar]

Sure. In a nutshell, I might keep it quiet because we don't know if the spies are listening. But yeah, like you said, I'm a member of Health Workers for a Free Palestine, also MED act, which is a health justice charity and came into doing this organizing off the back of the escalation of the genocide in Gaza back in November 2023. And we just felt like we needed to heed the calls from our comrades in Palestine. The Palestinian trade unions there were asking us to tackle complicity in our workplaces and that's why we, we came to pick Palantir. So, yeah, this is really, really something close to my heart, big time.

[Susan McCo]

Wonderful.

[Dr. Matt Mahmoudy]

And Matt Yeah, let's see. So I hunt bad tech companies for a living with my Amnesty hat, of which Palantir is one of many, but perhaps the worst. And in my assistant professorship, I teach the kids about why they should take issue with companies like Palantir. And what brought me here was essentially being a part of various organizations that campaign for migrants rights and realizing way back in 2017 and 18 that Palantir was actually wound up with much of the hostile environment that they were experiencing, both the United States, but also increasingly in the UK and beyond.

[Susan McCo]

Wow. Well, thank you very much for coming to join us. We're very excited to find out what you know.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yes, yes, yes, yes. And I. I mean, I sort of know the answer, but it'd be really great if you could just explain to us, Matt, like, what is the origin of Palantir? Because it isn't. It isn't just the current genocide, is it?

[Susan McCo]

Like, what.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Where do they sort of begin?

[Dr. Matt Mahmoudy]

Yeah. So, I mean, it's interesting, right, because Deborah mentioned how they were founded, which is to say Peter Thiel had a bunch of extra money coming out of the sales of PayPal, and he decided to invest that, well, initially into a hedge fund clarium, and then from there ended up investing into this new startup called Palantir, which, together with two other tech bros, they went off to actually vie for someone with a PhD that could convince the intelligence community that they actually mattered. And they got Alice Karp on board, who's sort of this manic, slightly frazzled looking academic type who loves to talk in intellectual riddles, and he sells Palantir products on the back of that. People just feel so awed by that language. And they ended up basically going straight to the CIA after failing with many other venture capitalists in Q Tel, their venture capital arm, invested in Palantir. Soon after that, Palantir was rolling their products out to the nypd, who used them for workplace raids. They then rolled it out to the federal government, where the Immigration Customs Enforcement Agency, ice, ended up using the technology to conduct workplace raid. You might have heard of the incident in August 2019, where 600 factory workers, migrant workers, were detained and held in broad daylight whilst their kids were still in school. This was done using Palantir's tools. It was called Falcon back then, which is a mixture of Gotham and Foundry. You can't make these names up. They're just ominous by nature. We can go into what those tools actually do later. But just to say that they were doing this during the first Trump administration, right. They were helping engage in this detention and deportation.

[Susan McCo]

Do you think he knows, like, he's the Penguin, or does he. Does he think he's a good guy? Like, when he calls it Gotham, he can't think he's Batman because he keeps talking about his plans for the world. Like, what? Yeah.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Do they know that they're the bad guys?

[Dr. Matt Mahmoudy]

I think they're convinced that the Western civilization and it's. Is facing sort of an existential threat and that they're the good guys because they're willing to do everything that it takes for the west to survive, whatever that means.

[Susan McCo]

That's.

[Dr. Matt Mahmoudy]

That's their. Yeah, Never.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Thanos and the rings. We have to, like, get rid of every.

[Susan McCo]

Oh, my God. What is it that, like, when you say they're working because the CIA were involved very early on, weren't they? How does that happen? Does Peter Thiel go and. To ring up and say, hello, is this the CIA? I think I've got something for you? Or does the CIA go to Silicon Valley and see who's making kind of products that they want?

[Dr. Matt Mahmoudy]

So it's a little bit of everything. So in this case, it was both the CIA sort of having their ears out on what was happening in Silicon Valley, but it was also the New York Police Police Department having used Palantir's products, essentially, or being aware of it, essentially putting in a tip with the CIA with in Q Tel and saying, hey, these could be your next guys.

[Susan McCo]

And what do they do for them? Because it's all very foggy and mysterious, isn't it? Like, how do they get people's information to tell them? Or is that what they're doing?

[Dr. Matt Mahmoudy]

Yeah. So Palantir has a neat product called Foundry. Again, another ominous name. Foundry is effectively a mirror. It's a mirror of all the data contained within a particular organization. And that organization may be as small as a company, or it may be as large as, say, a nation state, like the entirety of the United States. In this case Palantir, for example, in the context of the immigrants rights violations, they would have gone in and they would have mirrored, put into conversation different databases from different agencies, and then used artificial intelligence to glean insights about who might be, say, someone that we might consider a possible threat now or in the future.

[Susan McCo]

Right? A possible threat, yes. So does the CIA say, we think that guy might be a possible threat? Or are they, like, tapping phones or like, how are they doing that?

[Dr. Matt Mahmoudy]

So I'll give you an example. The Falcon tool, which I referred to before, with the Mississippi factory workers, you Effectively have a tip line on the one end, which is anyone, really, anyone off the streets, you know, named or otherwise can put in a tip that I think this person does not have documents. That name of this individual and that information coming in from the tip line is then compared to a large federal database that the AI then scours through to say, oh, we've got some possibly derogatory information that ties this individual to a spot in which a crime may have occurred. Or they might have a parking ticket, or they might have something that flags them as a possible risk. And an algorithmic indicator then informs federal agents that this individual may well pose a threat.

[Susan McCo]

Right.

[Deborah Frances-White]

A parking ticket.

[Dr. Matt Mahmoudy]

It could be anything.

[Susan McCo]

Like, frankly, with ice, it would definitely be stuff like that.

[Deborah Frances-White]

They would literally just go through something.

[Dr. Matt Mahmoudy]

We have to remember with artificial intelligence, it's not about finding real data that tells you about what actually happened. It's about finding proxy data that cosplays what could have happened.

[Susan McCo]

So if we go back to fostering despair through truth. Inverted commas. Yeah. It tells you the worst case scenarios. That's from Lord of the Rings. So that's what they're doing. They're going, this guy had an unpaid speeding fine because he left this house and went to the house and he never saw it and he didn't have money that week and ignored it. And also a crime was committed. So put two and two together. A crime is committed in that neighborhood, it's probably him. So they go and take him in for questioning. And because if you ask AI just normal or chatgpt or something, it just makes stuff up if it doesn't know. It's basically a guy at a party who will not. Who will not admit that he doesn't know. So he does absolute bullshits and just makes up like lies. Just total lies. Literally the only time I've ever used ChatGPT it was to summarize a book because I had to interview a guest and I said, I'm gonna read it myself, but I need to just tell the other co host what it's about. And it just made up a whole book. It made up a whole fucking book. Yeah, it just claimed that Dorno Porter's book was about just a whole story made up a lovely story that was nothing to do with this fucking book. I never used it again. That was the one time I ever used it because I just went, this is just lying to me. But it blags. It just blags. And so now when you put that in the hands of the CIA, it's not about Dorno Porter's lovely new paperback. It's about, you know, it's about people's lives.

[Dr. Matt Mahmoudy]

It's about people's lives. And we have to remember the people that designed it are exactly these guys at the party. They're awkward, they're problematic, they have really, really violent views of the world and they decide to encode that into these systems that just replicate those same views. And so instead of having actual evidence or prompt accountability or further research before you ascertain something, the systems are designed to effectively bind to the worst parts of our brains that go, as a computer said, it's right. So therefore, it's right.

[Susan McCo]

So can I ask how they got into the nhs? Because why would our government let them in when we know so many terrible things about them? And it's pretty clear these guys are bad guys. Yeah.

[Dr. Matt Mahmoudy]

So just to touch on this a little bit, but then I think Linnea might also have a lot more to say here. But what's interesting about Palantir is that their business model is entirely lacking confidence. Right. Because they went out and they actually sold their products for $1 in the early days, even to the NHS. During COVID they offered their platforms to the NHS X as a part of the contact tracing effort. For just one pound. Right?

[Susan McCo]

What?

[Dr. Matt Mahmoudy]

For one pound? And this. They've done this before. They've done this with Hessen data German police force.

[Susan McCo]

This is just a game to them.

[Linnea Friar]

This is just a game.

[Dr. Matt Mahmoudy]

But what it allows.

[Susan McCo]

Is it, though? Because I'm very suspicious of a man like Peter Thiel giving me anything for a pound.

[Dr. Matt Mahmoudy]

Exactly.

[Susan McCo]

Because I think that's not what he wants, then.

[Deborah Frances-White]

No, no, no, of course not. But that's what I mean.

[Dr. Matt Mahmoudy]

You're the product.

[Linnea Friar]

Okay.

[Susan McCo]

Sorry.

[Deborah Frances-White]

You're gonna get this a lot from me. What the fuck?

[Dr. Matt Mahmoudy]

No, but the actual fuck is a correct response. And I think.

[Susan McCo]

I think a pound. Is that true? Yes, it is. Weren't the government suspicious as to why this big global AI surveillance company run by or founded by man who says he doesn't believe in democracy is like, have they not seen Pinocchio? Like, when. Come along to the Wolf. And the Wolf's like, oh, come in. It's all going to be wonderful. Oh, it's only a pound, like. And then it's not good Fantasy island, is it? It's a bad place for Pinocchio, but

[Dr. Matt Mahmoudy]

I think, like, Boris Johnson at the time really flirted with that idea in such a major way. He loved being in proximity.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yeah.

[Susan McCo]

Oh, our very Own Geppetto.

[Dr. Matt Mahmoudy]

But let's remember the £1 allows him to. To go on and say that they've worked with XYZ police forces, with health agencies, and they can just stack up this massive portfolio of possibly really impactful use cases that, in the. Just before they went public, then of course, drives up their stock market.

[Susan McCo]

So they did it for exposure. They did it for exposure. Like, comedians, like, come and do this gig for exposure.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Exposure.

[Susan McCo]

But I've never then sold anything for £50 billion afterwards, so that's. I'm missing out on something.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Could you expand a little bit, like how this has even happened?

[Linnea Friar]

Yeah. And I think it's important to situate the contract within the context of privatization and austerity. Right. So rather than our government investing in public infrastructure, instead they're outsourcing it to private companies, where they then get to extract the power and the profit. And as you alluded to, the kind of gossip story behind this, it is proper scandalous. So it all started back in 2019. Lewis Moseley, who's head of Palantir UK and who is.

[Deborah Frances-White]

I don't know whether this is related, but who's his granddad?

[Susan McCo]

Who's it?

[Linnea Friar]

Yes. So he's grandson of famous. Famous fascist. Infamous Oswald, mostly.

[Susan McCo]

Yeah.

[Linnea Friar]

Not one of the good guys.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Not one of the good guys. I just wanted to highlight that.

[Susan McCo]

So he's a Nepo fascist. Yeah. Hell, man, it's really cute.

[Linnea Friar]

And he'll just go on the news and wear a black T shirt and be like, this is fine.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yeah, I mean.

[Susan McCo]

I mean. And I don't want to assume people are fascist because their grandparents are fascist, because some people, sometimes their grandparents are fascists and they're not.

[Deborah Frances-White]

I'm gonna go out on a lemon beer.

[Susan McCo]

No, no, no. Because sometimes, Sometimes people are like, I'm

[Deborah Frances-White]

in a proper snarky.

[Susan McCo]

I'm anti fascist now because of my history, and they really, really are, but it doesn't sound like he's made that choice. Step away.

[Linnea Friar]

No.

[Susan McCo]

Step away.

[Linnea Friar]

Correct. So he, like, if he was running

[Susan McCo]

a cottage industry, I'd be like, come on, it's not his fault. He wasn't even born. But he's not, is he? Unless we could call this a cottage industry.

[Linnea Friar]

No. What is he doing? He's taken it and accelerated a little bit. So, yeah, he had. He had a private dinner with the then chair of NHS England in July 2019. Six weeks later, we have an undisclosed meeting with Boris Johnson and Peter Thiel. And then, as Matt kind of alluded to the COVID pandemic led to these national emergency powers which allowed them to exploit us, basically. So they got them through the back door where there was no kind of procurement, no consultation. That happened with this. And the contract was given to them for £1. Six months later, it's £23.5 million. And again in a period of time when we have no consultation, no procurement. And during that time they were lobbying to kind of acquire more NHS supplier relationships. And there was an internal document that Mosley had sent round to staff saying that we are buying our way in and that's kind of their way of being able to take down political resistance from people like me and people like us. But, yeah, jokes on them. So eventually they were awarded this 330 million pound contract to build what's called the Federated Data platform. And it's really telling that the discussions that were being had in NHS England were already kind of assuming that they got the contract. So, like, NHS Trust were being told to pilot the foundry platform before they even had the contract to do that. So it was kind of a done deal from the get go, because they'd already embedded themselves so far in there

[Susan McCo]

that they said, or one pound. And everyone went, oh, that's a deal. What a bargain. And then. So that was under Johnson. Yeah, they got in and then next time they said, oh, you're already using us now. It'd be disruptive to change. Here's what we're doing for you. £23 million, please. Is that true? Is that. They just went. Now it's £23 million.

[Linnea Friar]

So there was a. The contract for the Federated Aid platform did go out to procurement.

[Susan McCo]

Right. And if you're listening at home, she's making those finger bunnies.

[Linnea Friar]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I mean, the way in which that was procured as being, like, challenged in the courts and it's. There's lots of questions to be asked about that.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Could you just. Just for people like me, what is the Federated Database, or what's it called?

[Linnea Friar]

The Federated Data platform.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Platform. That's it.

[Linnea Friar]

What is that? So essentially it's a platform that is supposed to better facilitate the sharing and also like analytics of patient data. But the original intention of it is really good. And also, as health workers, we are not anti the FTP. We think that we should be bringing the NHS into the new digital age. We are not anti tech. We think that on the basis of it, it's a good idea. The problem is Palantir, like, we absolutely do not need to have a company like Palantir facilitating this for us because

[Susan McCo]

there has been problems with different surgeries and different hospitals saving data in different ways. So there's no easy way to pass data over. And then people have died because of that, 100%, because they couldn't get those records or they won't move smoothly. So we absolutely do need a clear way to share data, but it doesn't have to be from these people who are also, well, in the United States of America. Is it true that they've used medical data to share with ice?

[Linnea Friar]

Yes.

[Susan McCo]

And then ICE have come into people's homes and arrested them or taken them away?

[Linnea Friar]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Susan McCo]

So that is not a safe company. No.

[Linnea Friar]

And also to be clear, it's from the original intention of what the FTP was supposed to be. It's strayed so far. And the kind of tools that they're making, they're just kind of operational management things are not really related to our care. And I think there's a big argument to be made that the kind of data services that we see provided in the UK by big leaders, I'll kind of big up Greater Manchester later. But they're really using tech and the evidence that they can gather from data to save lives. But the products that we're being provided with, number one, they're a bit shit is what everyone's telling us, which is hilarious for a company that's supposed to pride themselves on tech. But, yeah, they're not. They're not really that relevant to your direct care.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yeah.

[Linnea Friar]

So.

[Susan McCo]

Right.

[Deborah Frances-White]

So can I ask another? Sort of like, this is a question for me, Totally selfish. So when we talk about the threat, like when I've spoken to people that was coming to do the show and I was meeting you guys, I often get. And I don't know whether you get this now, a lot of people sort of go, well, they already have our data. They already have. Like, why do we need to be precious about it? And as somebody who's had, like, my address leaked online, let me tell you, that's not something that you. You want. It's terrifying. What are they planning? What do you. This is to both. I'd love to hear both your answers to this. What are they planning to do with this data? Like, why is this scary? Because if our data is, you know, I'm doing the bunny fingers. If our data is already out there, then why do we need to be precious about it? I don't believe that, but that's what

[Susan McCo]

people have said that to me.

[Linnea Friar]

Yeah, like, medical data is Some of the most personal, personal, confidential data that we have. Right. And to be clear, when they say that the data is synonymized, that is not the same as it being anonymized.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Right.

[Linnea Friar]

And for a spy tech company, it's pretty easy to re identify people from that kind of stuff. So I think we need to really bear that in mind, see what is going on abroad. They're already telling us what they're doing in other places, but specifically in the Context of the UK Reform put out a 2025 policy last year called Operation Restoring justice where they've claimed that they're going to relentlessly identify and detain all legal migrants in the uk. They're going to do that by automatically sharing data between the nhs.

[Susan McCo]

Reform have said that outright.

[Linnea Friar]

Yeah, it's in a policy document.

[Susan McCo]

What?

[Linnea Friar]

So, yep, sharing data with the nhs, hmrc, DVLA banks and automate that process. So we need to bear in mind that Palantir are not a dutiful processor. They kind of say that they'll do whatever the data controller does. So if that's reform, they've said quite explicitly that they will help facilitate I style deportations in the country. And also the thing to bear in mind with them is that they have no qualms with manipulating who the data controller is going to be, I. E. By pumping millions of pounds into right wing political parties. So they're kind of controlling who the future data controllers are going to be as well. And like you said, the risk is not hypothetical. They're doing this already in the us.

[Susan McCo]

So Reform UK have explicitly said we would take data from the NHS and we would use it to deport people. So the NHS is now not a safe place to tell anybody anything. So the podcast I was listening to today about psychotherapy and the nhs, Absolutely. The advice should be don't tell your psychotherapist anything because they, you know, and that's, that's a terrible thing to say because I want people to tell their psychotherapist things. But if until we are sure Reform are not in, maybe that's actually not safe.

[Linnea Friar]

So to be fair, there has been a contract or a relationship between the Home Office and NHS since Theresa May's rain. I don't know what else to call it.

[Susan McCo]

Her time. Her time.

[Linnea Friar]

Her time.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Her administration time.

[Linnea Friar]

Yeah. Where, you know, there is, there is sharing and like great harm that's done to migrants through the sharing of data with the Home Office and patients, not passports have done great work around this. But what we would see is like the Immense escalation and rapid acceleration of that existing hostile environment.

[Susan McCo]

You cannot be in both care and control. The business of care and the business of control have to be separate. So if you're going to be in one, you cannot be in the other. That is. That is absolutely.

[Linnea Friar]

I think it's also important, especially in the context of the show, actually, to also talk a bit about the police contracts that they have in this country. Yes. Because. So they. They have a. An AI powered platform that they provide called Nectar. And we found from some investor. Nectar. I know that's probably the crappiest one of all.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Do they know nothing about this country?

[Susan McCo]

Isn't that Sainsbury's loyalty points, their loyalty club?

[Deborah Frances-White]

That's exactly. That's exactly what I mean. They've got all this other Tolkien stuff and they're just like, nectar.

[Linnea Friar]

Yeah.

[Susan McCo]

Anyway, are they trying to confuse us because we think, oh, we'll tell them stuff because, you know, it's Nectar points.

[Linnea Friar]

Is it something like that? I don't know. They're being like police loyalty. I'm not sure. But we know from investigations that people have done that. The special categories of data that Palantir have said that they will share with the police forces include health data, it includes trade union membership, it includes political beliefs, sex life.

[Susan McCo]

What?

[Deborah Frances-White]

What?

[Linnea Friar]

Yes.

[Susan McCo]

How do they know about that, though?

[Deborah Frances-White]

Hang on.

[Susan McCo]

You might tell your doctor.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Oh, yeah, well, I told doctor, doctor, my boyfriend's got a massive penis.

[Susan McCo]

I got a tiny bit of.

[Linnea Friar]

Jana,

[Deborah Frances-White]

You can hear the sirens already.

[Susan McCo]

To be fair, you are talking about it on a. On a podcast.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Your data's already out there.

[Susan McCo]

No, it isn't. It is. It is. It's. Yeah, we. We podcast far too much of our data.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Sorry, I just had to. I had to make a joke. What the. So sorry to interrupt.

[Susan McCo]

Do you think this is why? Because there's a new thing now that if you want to look at pornography in this country, it wants to take your face and it says, oh, that's just so we know your age, so

[Deborah Frances-White]

we can look after the children.

[Susan McCo]

Because we care so much about that. Children. Oh, we just care so much about young people. Do you think it's so they know people's kinks and what you're into?

[Linnea Friar]

Yeah. And actually, I think in the context of rape cases, actually, victims data might end up being used against them, so they might call into question the credibility of what they're saying and scrutinizing them and re traumatizing and re victimizing them rather than actually trying to find the perpetrators. Of crime.

[Susan McCo]

What? So saying what you.

[Deborah Frances-White]

You watch poor, therefore you can't be a rape victim.

[Linnea Friar]

Or like this, this. These are the things that you do in your sex life.

[Susan McCo]

And yeah, I thought they were not allowed to do that anymore. I thought that was not allowed to be a defense so that they. That you couldn't say, somebody has engaged in bdsm, therefore you. And you've hurt them. And therefore I thought that was no longer a defense. This is why it's so important to make sure that it's all shifting, isn't it?

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yeah, Ex.

[Susan McCo]

Everything's shifting. Everything we know is just shifting sand beneath our feet. I don't want these people here at all.

[Linnea Friar]

Preach.

[Susan McCo]

I don't want them here at all. There's so many reasons.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Borders, borders, but never for the people who shouldn't be here. Do you know what I mean?

[Susan McCo]

Like I 100% that. Can I ask, why does Palantir working with the IDF to target Palestinians and Lebanese civilians mean they should not be in health care? Now, obviously it's. That's obvious, but Amnesty International have asked me specifically to ask you that question, in those words, because they want you to unpack it.

[Dr. Matt Mahmoudy]

Oh, Amnesty. I think it's important to pay attention to how Palantir, if you ask them about what data they actually have to show for how they found all of these quote, unquote, missing children that they apparently were mission critical for or have been engaged in helping detect smugglers, illegal smugglers, that they can't actually tell you any of the data that shows any positive applications of their tools. But if you look at the data that we actually do have, which is them speaking very loudly almost within the. I think it was within the third month of the start of the genocide in Gaza, referring to themselves effectively as one of the first people to speak up, one of the first companies to speak up in support of the genocidal acts of Israel against Palestinians in Gaza, that they were mission critical for the war objective in Gaza, that they were going to be providing at least four platforms to the state of Israel, notably Gaia, which is sort of a geospatial intelligence platform where you can see the battlefield remotely and take actions using AI. They provided Foundry, which is this sort of the big data set that brings everything together into one space. They provided Gotham, which can help with things like target generation. It's also often used in context of predictive analytics by police forces. And they provide it.

[Deborah Frances-White]

What does that mean? Sorry.

[Dr. Matt Mahmoudy]

So for things like, you might have heard of predictive policing, Minority Report, Palantir will aggressively say that they don't do predictive policing, they just, they do area based probabilities that.

[Susan McCo]

That's predictive policing though.

[Dr. Matt Mahmoudy]

Yeah, they have a very probability.

[Susan McCo]

What is it then?

[Dr. Matt Mahmoudy]

Slanted definitions of what things mean. And they operate in this area of being able to on the one hand be not so bad as you think on paper when they responding to human rights organizations, but the absolute worst when they're selling themselves people to groups like the idf.

[Susan McCo]

Yeah.

[Dr. Matt Mahmoudy]

And in the context of Israel, they've been providing these tools and they continue to talk about it. And when they've been confronted about killing Palestinians, for example, at various presentations they've been doing, they've said mostly terrorists, but yes, you know, and when they've been confronted about, you know, what their actions are going to result in, in the context of Palestine, they continue to say, oh, but how dare you. Obviously we're going to be helping the state of Israel in the context of the October 7th attacks. And they don't in any way address how their tools have been used potentially in the conduct of international grave crimes against Palestinians. You want a company that has done this, that is blatantly unapologetic about their actions in an international grave crime to be processing your data in this country. How can we find that acceptable in any way that would implicate us also in the killing of Palestinians and also directly?

[Susan McCo]

These are tools for killing.

[Dr. Matt Mahmoudy]

These are tools for surveillance. These are tools that again, have no real data or positive use cases. Why do we trust it?

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yeah, this is exactly what we mean when we say no one is free until Palestinians are free. Because if they, they can do this stuff, there it is coming. That's not sensationalist. If they can have complete impunity to do whatever they want just because people are Arab, it, they are going to do it here. Like it's such a complete nightmare.

[Susan McCo]

And as we're seeing, we're seeing it extend to Lebanon now. With what justification? Like, like, oh, Hezbollah might be there, but of course also Palantir can say, oh yeah, we anticipate through our anticipatory software that Hezbollah's here and here and here and here and here and here. And then we're just seeing apartment buildings and schools.

[Deborah Frances-White]

What was it, over 100 airstrikes in 10 minutes?

[Susan McCo]

Yeah, paramedics. A paramedics funeral I saw was struck a paramedics funeral, like off. Like it's just, it's just so evil and pernicious and you know, as you say, it's, it's Susan, It's a test case for like, if we don't stand up when we see it happening there, how will it spread? How will it spread and how many different directions?

[Deborah Frances-White]

And that shouldn't be the motivator. It should be enough. We could be completely protected and, and it happening in another country and that should be enough to mobilize us. But if you want, if people are so kind of pushed into a corner now because of capitalism that people are just looking after their own plot of land, it won't exist. It won't exist.

[Susan McCo]

I have so many more questions to ask you, but our producer is telling me it's time for an interval. After the interval so you can go to the loo and get a drink. After the interval, we'll ask a few more questions off our clipboards and then we'll throw it to you so you can ask questions. So get your questions ready for the Q and A. Give a big round of applause to Dr. Matt Mahmoudy. And Linnea Friar. We will be back after the break.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Go get a drink.

[Susan McCo]

So that was the first half. Join us for part two, which should be in your feed right now. Your next chapter in healthcare starts at Carrington College's School of Nursing in Portland. Join us for our open house on Tuesday, January 13th from 4 to 7pm you'll tour our campus, see live demos, meet instructors and learn about our associate degree in nursing program that prepares you to become a registered nurse. Take the first step toward your nursing career. Save your spot now at Carrington Edu Events. For information on program outcomes, visit carrington. Edu Sci Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile with a message for everyone. Paying Big Wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop with Mint. You can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying. No judgments. But that's weird. Okay, one judgment anyway. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first 3 months only. Plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See full [e-mail].