480. Keep Palantir Out Of Our NHS with Susan Wokoma, Dr Matt Mahmoudi and Linnéa Freear - part two

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Guilty Feminist – Episode 480

"Keep Palantir Out Of Our NHS (Part Two)"

Host: Deborah Frances-White
Guests: Susan Wokoma (Co-host), Dr. Matt Mahmoudi (Amnesty International), Linnéa Freear (Health Workers for a Free Palestine)
Date: April 27, 2026

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Episode Overview

This engaging, urgent episode continues the deep-dive into the campaign to keep Palantir—an American data analytics and surveillance company—out of the UK's NHS. The hosts and guests address the political, social, and ethical ramifications of Palantir’s involvement in NHS data management, highlighting recent parliamentary debates, grassroots victories, whistleblower risks, surveillance state anxieties, and practical steps for civic action. The conversation is frank, funny, and sometimes furious, as the guests clarify the stakes for health workers, patients, marginalized groups, and democracy itself.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Parliamentary Pushback and Media Impact

• Recent Westminster Debate:
  • MPs—including Labour—condemned Palantir’s involvement, with the government only defending efficiency, not values or ethics.
  • "Lots of MPs, including Labor, MPS, going, this is an outrage. Palantir should not be in our NHS. This is disgusting. This is disgraceful. And the government saying, yeah, we don't like them either, but they're quite efficient." (Deborah, 01:33)
  • No real or credible defense of Palantir in the debate. (Linnea, 02:36)
• Campaign Effectiveness:
  • Campaigns’ research and briefings (MedAct + Amnesty) cited in Parliament, raising critical scrutiny of the data and methodology behind Palantir’s NHS pilot. (Linnea, 03:15–04:10)
  • "The pilot trust made a tool… they're not even trying to hide it, are they? Do they think we're fucking stupid?" (Susan, 04:56)

2. Local Activism Success: Manchester as a Model

• Manchester ICB’s Refusal:
  • Greater Manchester has refused Palantir’s Federated Data Platform, instead maintaining a trusted, effective community-built data platform. (Linnea, 05:52)
  • Outlines how intersectional, grassroots mobilization—radio stations, pubs, gardening groups—all contributed to showing broad public and institutional opposition. (Linnea, 07:23–09:27)
  • "This was a really, really cross-community campaign… not just a single issue." (Linnea, 07:23)
• National Implications:
  • Demonstrates that alternatives exist and the refusal is a political choice, not a technical necessity. (Linnea, 05:52–07:19)

3. Threats & Risks to NHS Staff

• Reprisal Fears:
  • NHS staff have reportedly been threatened with job loss for speaking out against Palantir.
  • "You know, it's a cost of living crisis, It's a big worry." (Linnea, 09:47)
  • Protection of whistleblowers and the importance of collective action emphasized.
• Personal Stakes:
  • Linnéa draws attention to discriminatory ideologies in Palantir leadership, connecting tech contracts to broader threats: “Alex Karp thinks that we are the biggest threat to Palantir, the West and America… Some analysts… Alex Carpa said before that he wants to spray analysts… with fentanyl-laced urine from a drone.” (Linnea, 10:17)

4. Ideology, Ethics, & the NHS

• Argument: Care vs Control
  • Palantir and their UK reps claim activists are putting ideology above patients; the panel counters that NHS values are inherently political and grounded in care, public good, democracy.
  • Memorable exchange:

    “Our political values are also based on the NHS values, which he clearly has no idea about... Health is inherently political.” (Linnea, 12:35–13:06)

  • Deborah: “First, do no harm… Palantir, they say themselves that they do harm… That is a fundamental contradiction of what it means to care for human beings.” (14:49)
• Corruption, Corporate Capture, and Lobbyists
  • Campaigners are painted as lobbyists, but point out the asymmetry of power, money, and media access. (Matt, 15:20; Linnea, 15:46)

5. Palantir’s Track Record: Human Rights & Data Abuse

• Global Evidence of Harm
  • Dr. Mahmoudi lays out Palantir’s direct involvement with US Immigration enforcement, enabling mass surveillance, deportations, and rights abuses—despite the company’s professed “concern.” (Matt, 16:42)
    • “They said, we know we're bad, but… we're going to provide the tool anyway.” (Matt, 17:13)
  • Marketing materials for military violence and opaque, bespoke data infrastructures are raised as huge ethical risks. Only Palantir engineers know what their systems actually do. (Matt, 19:04–20:50)
  • On AI: “AI is a marketing tool that repackages violence as something that's sexy, marketable and efficient. That's all it is..." (Matt, 21:05)

6. Grassroots Action & Next Steps

• What You Can Do:
  • Contact your MP—refusing Palantir depends on political will, and collective pressure works. (Matt, 23:07)
  • Engage locally, especially via organized groups (e.g., Health Workers for a Free Palestine, Amnesty).
  • "If we refuse to have our data used in those ways… We can collectively build our power as workers, patients." (Linnea, 24:33)
  • Key Break Clause: February 2027 is the contractual opportunity to remove Palantir—campaigning must intensify up to that point. (26:14)
  • Onboarding events: May 10 (London/Manchester); April 28 (Amnesty webinar). (27:21–28:03)

7. Surveillance Society & Personal Data

• Privacy Risks Beyond Health Data
  • Audience Q&A about daily surveillance—choices of platforms (Signal preferred), the near-ubiquity of facial recognition, and risks of social media data. (30:06–32:18)
  • Protect yourself at protests (masks, “dazzle makeup,” obscuring cameras), but collective solutions matter more.
• Reproductive Autonomy Threats
  • US precedents: period apps and location data used against people seeking abortions—Palantir-style infrastructures enable these abuses. (Matt, 33:13)
  • “If the worst government is elected… draw the line at Palantir… we expect that our reproductive care… is protected.” (Matt, 33:13–34:51)

8. Data Brokers, Dating Apps & Private Healthcare

• Tangled Data Ecosystem
  • Possible connections between Palantir and dating apps/data brokers; value of vigilance and skepticism. (Linnea, 35:46 onwards)
  • Discussion about privacy as a luxury—will private healthcare mean more say over your data vs. the NHS under Palantir? (38:16)

9. Limitations of Opt-Outs & Legal Complaints

• Current Legal Frameworks
  • NHS national data opt-out does NOT apply to Palantir’s data platform—it’s classed as “direct care.”
  • GDPR recourse possible if you can show your data is misused (e.g., de-anonymized or shared beyond treatment). (Linnea & Matt, 39:55–41:25)
  • “Good Law Project” tool has enabled 65,000+ people to file data complaints (but mostly symbolic so far). (Linnea, 41:44)

10. Political, Legal, and Moral Imperatives

• Palantir, NHS, and Global Complicity
  • Palantir’s NHS contract implicates the UK in funding and enabling atrocities abroad (e.g., in Palestine), heightening the moral urgency to terminate the contract. (Matt, 42:20)
  • “One way in which we stifle and choke that political economy of Genocide… is by kicking Palantir out of the NHS.” (Matt, 43:54)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “They’re not even trying to hide it, are they? Do they think we’re fucking stupid?” — Susan, (04:56)
• “Our political values are also based on the NHS values, which he [Palantir UK’s CEO] clearly has no idea about… Health is inherently political.” — Linnea, (12:35–13:06)
• “AI is a marketing tool that repackages violence as something that's sexy, marketable and efficient." — Matt, (21:05)
• “You’re the product or the target. My God.” — Deborah, (21:45)
• “If they can be kicked out of [New York], it can happen anywhere.” — Matt, (36:53)
• “Just make sure you tell everyone this is a very, very intersectional campaign… The one contract is just a strategic target so that we can weaken their plans to expand into the UK. But we can do this. And February 2027, we will be victorious.” — Linnea, (44:09)
• “If you could get rid of AI, would you? — Absolutely. AI is a marketing tool...” — Deborah & Matt, (21:03–21:05)
• “First, do no harm…Palantir, they say themselves that they do harm… That is a fundamental contradiction of what it means to care for human beings.” — Deborah, (14:49)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:33 – Parliamentary debate breakdown
• 03:15 – Campaign briefing cited in Parliament
• 05:52 – Manchester’s alternative to Palantir
• 09:41 – NHS staff threatened over dissent
• 10:17 – Palantir leadership/extreme statements
• 12:35 – NHS values and “ideology” debate
• 16:42 – Palantir and US deportations
• 19:04 – Palantir’s war marketing & data opacity
• 23:07 – What individuals can do/action points
• 26:14 – Palantir contract break in Feb 2027
• 30:06 – Privacy/surveillance: Q&A
• 33:13 – Reproductive rights & data abuse
• 35:46 – Dating apps, data brokers
• 39:55 – Legal opt-outs & practical complaints
• 42:20 – International law/Palestine connection
• 44:09 – Final campaign encouragement

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How to Get Involved / Action Steps

• Contact your MP: Demand no Palantir in NHS, flag break in contract in Feb 2027.
• Join local campaign groups: “Health Workers for a Free Palestine,” Amnesty International events.
  • Onboarding days:
    • April 28 (Amnesty webinar; sign up via their website)
    • May 10 (London/Manchester—check Instagram for details)
• File NHS data complaints via Good Law Project website.
• Switch to safer comms (Signal, etc.), advocate privacy-first platforms.
• Vote tactically to send a clear signal against parties supporting Palantir.

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Conclusion

The conversation is a rallying cry for the urgency of collective action: Palantir’s role in the NHS is not inevitable or irreversible. The panel is hopeful—pointing to local victories and building power for a national campaign to “kick Palantir out.” They urge listeners to get directly involved, not merely stay informed, and to see this as both a feminist issue and one intersecting all of society.

“This isn’t just about the NHS. It’s about privatization, sovereign data control, the shape of democracy. But we can do this. And February 2027, we will be victorious.” — Linnea, (44:09)

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For more information and links to campaign actions, visit the show notes at guiltyfeminist.com or seek out Health Workers for a Free Palestine and Amnesty International UK online.

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Transcript

[Deborah Frances White]

Hello, guilty feminists. I want to talk about something that half the population experiences and the other half should probably understand better gynecological health. Because so many of us grew up with patchy information, some pretty weird myths and general feeling that we should probably just not talk about it. That's why I'm delighted to tell you about Bloody Powerful the Taboo Busting Guide to Periods, Menopause and Everything in between by Dr. Brooke van der Molen, illustrated by Hazel Mead and published by Cambridge University Press. This book is a warm, clear and genuinely empowering guide to everything you probably didn't get taught in school, from understanding your periods to navigating menopause and all the confusing questions in between. Dr. Brook van der Molen is a practicing gynecology doctor. You might know her online as the Ob GYN Mum. And she answers so many of the questions we've all quite quietly googled at 2am it's also beautifully illustrated by Hazel Mead, which makes the whole thing feel accessible rather than clinical. If you'd like to learn more or give it to someone who deserves better information about their body, visit cambridge.org bloodypowerful and you can get 20% off with the code bloodypowerful20 at checkout. Because knowledge about our bodies shouldn't be taboo, it should be bloody powerful.

[Susan McComber]

Get the ice cream Love Big Freezer,

[Linnea Freer]

It's by the Peas.

[Deborah Frances White]

Some things are really best not to put off, like defrosting the freezer, or if you're a landlord, sending a copy of the new Government information sheet to your existing tenants. You must do this by 31 May or risk a fine. Make sure you're up to date with the new laws. Find the information [e-mail] renting is changing. Welcome back to part two of the guilty Feminist. So plug in and get ready for the fun. Welcome back to the Guilty Feminist. So let's crack on and get every minute out of this. Could we start Act 2 with something positive? There was a debate in Westminster yesterday and I watched a bit of seemed to go like this. Lots of MPs, including Labor, MPS, going, this is an outrage. Palantir should not be in our nhs. This is disgusting. This is disgraceful. And the government saying, yeah, we don't like them either, but they're quite efficient. Nobody seemed to defend them. Did I miss the bits where people defended them?

[Linnea Freer]

Not really. Admittedly, I. I was working, so I was kind of like tuning in and out, living this kind of double life where I'm at work, trying to do the thing, save lives One place, another. But, yeah, I think you're right. People were not offering up any kind of real defense of them. And the only people that are really doing that are Palantir and people at NHS England who made it. Yeah, shock me, shock. Guy who built things thinks it's great. So, yeah, it's. There was no real credible defense of it that was offered up.

[Deborah Frances White]

So did it go well on your. As far as you're concerned, did that debate go well?

[Linnea Freer]

100%. Yeah. I think we were really, really pleased to see that so many of the talking points that we've been trying to get out there for so long really got out there. We had a briefing that was published earlier this year. Medax published it in collaboration with some other great groups, Amnesty being one of them as well, and that was referenced a lot. And that's kind of really what. I think what accelerated this campaign recently as well is like the hard evidence that we had for all of that. And crucially, one really big thing that got mentioned was the fact that in the public sphere, there's no real scrutiny that's going on about the numbers that are being offered up. And we had an article in the BMJ last week that was basically saying that the results that were offered with respect to the pilot, that was first done ages ago. This is not positive news, but I'll just keep going. Push through, push through the results.

[Deborah Frances White]

Smile when you say it. We will think otherwise.

[Linnea Freer]

Yeah, I'll dazzle, dazzle you. But, yeah, the results that were put forward that we used to kind of justify the rollout at the beginning, the methodology behind it was all completely flawed. And it's kind of of note that the trust where that pilot happened, the chief exec, had to step down recently because he was accused of trying to convince NHS officials to put GP data into the platform. When there's very strict rules around the kind of governance of GP data. But of note, he used to work for Global Council and he sits on Palletta's health committee. So surprise again that the pilot trust made a tool that.

[Susan McComber]

They're not even trying to hide it, are they? Do they think we're fucking stupid? Yes, sorry.

[Deborah Frances White]

I think they think we're powerless. Like, what can we do, you know, I think, you know, what we've seen happen with Epstein is all of the worst emails about the most depraved things were released and then nobody was held accountable and then the public were able to be distracted. And I think it's really emboldened them to go, well, what if we do do this at the plain sight of day, who's going to stop us? And I think the answer to that needs to be us.

[Linnea Freer]

100% needs to be us.

[Deborah Frances White]

We need to say, absolutely not and keep working, as you are doing incredibly doing two jobs, both being a radiotherapist and also doing this big campaign. You have had some success in Manchester.

[Susan McComber]

Yes, you have.

[Deborah Frances White]

Tell us about your success.

[Linnea Freer]

Yeah. So in Greater Manchester, the Integrated Care Board there has so far refused to. To adopt the Federated data platform. That is mainly because we already have a great existing platform in place called the Analytics Data Science platform. It was built over the course of six years with kind of lots of different key people. So trust the universities, Health Innovation Manchester, and it was built to serve the community. And the reason as well, that they've kind of completely refused to adopt is that they have evidence that the data that they're. That they're analyzing the way that they're then actioning that data, they have evidence that we're actually saving lives with it. And we also have a great match to Care record, which facilitates the easy sharing of patient data. Again, like what we were actually trying to do with the FTP in the first place. And it sits within a secure data environment that was built with patient trust and patient engagement at the heart of it from the beginning. So I think it's important to mention now as well that trusts don't exist as part of a competitive research consortium in this country. Like, it's a national health service. Right. So there's no real reason why what we have in Manchester couldn't have been rolled out to the rest of the country. It's just like a political choice. But, yeah, so we've repeatedly refused to adopt the Federated Data platform because we're going to lose functionality rather than gaining it, and then we'd have to pay for the privilege of doing that as well.

[Deborah Frances White]

And some hospitals on that podcast, I told you about that, some hospitals have refused, haven't they?

[Linnea Freer]

Correct.

[Deborah Frances White]

Said, yeah, Nah.

[Linnea Freer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like, why would you tell hospitals at the moment where, you know, budgets are so strapped, people are firing. Well, not firing people are like, being made redundant. In fact. No, some people are being fired in some places, but people are being asked to rip out existing tools that we know work well without proper evidence for what the replacement actually provides. And that's without even considering the ethical issues. Right. So this is just like, practical stuff. So, yeah, massively commend the ICB leadership. Like, they've really been very steadfast in this. They know that they're the only ICB in the country that haven't adopted, they know that they're under extreme political pressure, but they've been really clear in all their communications to everyone that they will not risk losing patient trust because they know that this is like the cornerstone of how health works. And in terms of like the campaign, that's really where we came into it. So we did a huge campaign mobilizing people kind of across the great Manchester area to provide the ICB with evidence that patient trust will be completely diminished if we went ahead with implementing the platform. So we really focus on trying to get organizations to kind of sign a petition rather than individuals because we wanted to show that this is like a really intersectional campaign. This isn't a one issue thing. This impacts everyone across society. So we had radio stations, pubs, like gardening groups, bike co ops. That's obviously including other social advocacy groups as well. But kind of trying to highlight that this was a really cross community campaign that happened. I kind of liken it a bit to the case with the Fulton 24, where after the trial of the first six, they weren't able to convict any of them. And that's because when you present ordinary people with the realities of these kind of platforms, they can recognize injustice and they don't want any part of it. So yeah, I think in Manchester it was a really good case study of what you can do when everyone's aware of what's going on and you have leadership who will listen to you.

[Deborah Frances White]

And Judy Gordon and Denton, Manchester's been smashing.

[Susan McComber]

Yeah, I know.

[Deborah Frances White]

For real.

[Susan McComber]

Could you talk a little bit about the reports of NHS staff being threatened

[Deborah Frances White]

with losing their jobs if they speak

[Susan McComber]

out about the, against the use of the FTP?

[Linnea Freer]

Yeah. So firstly, I absolutely want to big up all the health workers that have been speaking up and up and out against this because it's not easy to do when you're facing a company like Palantir, there's a lot of fear. And also in this environment now where NHS England is being completely decimated, so people really are fearing risking losing their jobs. You know, it's a cost of living crisis, It's a big worry. Are you worried about that?

[Deborah Frances White]

Because you're very high profile in this.

[Linnea Freer]

So I, I feel like I've. It's a bit different for people that are like the analysts. I feel like I have to use this semi privileged position that I have where I feel like in my hospital no one really knows who I am or cares who I am. Anyway. The people are doing this. They're standing up for what they believe in. They're refusing to be complicit in facilitating the embedment of Palantir in our NHS because they recognize the long term safety of their community around them. And some of us are women. And like you said earlier, we've heard about him. Well, Peter Thiel thinking that the worst thing that can happen to democracy is women having the right to vote. We are social justice campaigners and Alex Karp thinks that we are the biggest threat to Palantir, the West and America. Some people have ethnicities based in those countries where they're being genocided. Some people are trans and they're being prevented from crossing borders because their passports might be invalidated. Some analysts. Well, Palantir have said before that, Alex Carpa said before that he wants to spray analysts that don't lie with Palantir with fentanyl laced urine from a drone. So, like, we, we know all these things and we just don't want to enable these people.

[Deborah Frances White]

We really thank you and respect you and admire you for what you're doing, for taking that stand and putting a job. Young Nepo fascist Lewis Mosley, head of Palantir uk, claims you're putting ideology ahead of patient interests. What do you say to him? He's here tonight. You wouldn't expect it, but he loves the guilty feminist. He's always texting me with an I'm a feminist butt. Hold on, is it I'm a fascist butt? I can't remember.

[Linnea Freer]

Hi.

[Deborah Frances White]

I've misread it. Might have misread it. Allegedly. Allegedly. Please don't sue me. Allegedly. This is under the parody laws. It's clear. Clearly a joke. People are laughing. Yeah. What do you say to him when he says you're putting ideology ahead of your patient interest?

[Linnea Freer]

Yeah, I mean, of course he's going to say that. It's not lost on us either, that the grandson of a fascist is trying to talk to us about ideology, but our ideology. And we're not shying away from being political Right or ideological. But our political values are also based on the nhs values, which he clearly has no idea about. So we're talking about compassion, improving lives, working together for patients, making sure that everyone counts. And health is inherently political.

[Deborah Frances White]

Absolutely.

[Linnea Freer]

The decisions that get made regarding kind of oil will affect kids that have asthma. When we don't have adequate housing, that's when we have damp issues, which leads to respiratory issues. All the things that are tied into health are deeply political and you would probably be quite concerned if the person that was responsible for your health didn't care about these things, that thought. They thought some kind of lies were more expendable than others. But as I say, Mosley and Palantir, they have access to power, which makes them get onto these platforms where they can kind of put across this idea that they're apolitical, but their work is political violence. Right. And I think we're definitely going to see now kind of a bit more of a. Like a smear campaign coming for us, saying that we are, you know, putting, like, our ideologies ahead of patience, but we don't have anything to gain here. Like, we're not. There's lots of other things I'd rather be doing with my time, but I actually love the people that I work with, so I don't actually mean that, but.

[Deborah Frances White]

Yeah, but you would rather be patient here and pastoral care for your colleagues.

[Susan McComber]

I mean, you're happy you're here, but you don't want to be.

[Deborah Frances White]

Yeah, we want to be here.

[Linnea Freer]

We want to be here.

[Deborah Frances White]

But it would be. It would be nicer if we were here talking about how to close the gender pay gap. But that's not on the agenda anymore.

[Susan McComber]

Jeez, we're gonna.

[Deborah Frances White]

These are. Yeah.

[Susan McComber]

Fuck.

[Linnea Freer]

Pay.

[Deborah Frances White]

Glass ceilings smashed, whatever. Those days are over. We're now. We're now in here. Surely the Hippocratic oath says, first, do no harm.

[Linnea Freer]

Yeah.

[Deborah Frances White]

And Palantir, they say themselves that they do harm. They say that sometimes they're called upon to kill people. Occasionally, they say occasional killing. Occasional. Turns out it's not really that occasional, actually. But you cannot say, first, do no harm and be holding these other truths in your hand. Yeah. And so that is not ideology. That is a fundamental contradiction of what it means to care for human beings and to heal human beings.

[Linnea Freer]

Yeah, exactly. And, you know, a journalist tried to. To say to us the other day that we. We too are lobbyists. And that really made me laugh because we were like, they. They have access to power. The most kind of powerful governments across the world. So much money, influence. And like, we. It took us six months to make a reel. Like, we didn't know how to do that stuff. Like, we.

[Deborah Frances White]

I feel that. So every comedian and actors, whatever, now has to run a television network. It's so boring.

[Susan McComber]

I had to do a video for this.

[Deborah Frances White]

It took me hours, ages, hours, ages. The own. I'm a feminist, but the only sympathy I've ever had for Nigel Farage was when he was making his cameos and someone caught him going, oh, fuck. And I went, yeah, I've done that. I mean, I wouldn't put it out there on cameo. I don't understand how they've got it. Anyway, it doesn't matter. The point is, don't run it for. Sorry. But the point is, what you are doing is absolutely in line with your role as a healer, a carer, as somebody who looks after the community. Socialized medicine means you cannot mix care and control. And so we need to move over to audience questions, but can we just ask you before we do, Matt, what are some things we don't know about Palantir that would shock us?

[Dr. Matt Mahmoudy]

Palantir are actually aware that their products might be used, are being used for human rights violations. Right. In 2020, Amnesty wrote to Palantir and said, hey, guys, you're aware of how the Trump administration is currently engaged in these mass deportations and workplace rates. Do you know that they are possibly using your tools to do it? And they said, listen, we are aware. I'm paraphrasing here. We are aware of the human rights abuses that this government is involved with. And we're concerned. We're really concerned. That's why we don't work with this very particular sub agency that sits within this agency of ice. And then still, they went ahead a couple years later, and now again in the second Trump administration, in the early 2025, and they supplied this AI powered immigration operating system that tracks the life cycle of someone being identified as a possible threat or someone who needed to be detained to then automatically deploying agents out to where they are and picking them up off the streets. Right? They said, we know we're bad, but we're bad. We're going to. We're going to just do the thing. We're going to provide the tool anyway. Which is just another way of saying the whole idea that these companies are in any way engaged in or care about our health or our wealth being, or our rights. It's a moot point because the company themselves are telling us that they've been aware the whole time, but they're still doubling down and amping up their efforts. Right. And we see that again, most prominently. We talked about Gaza before and how they continue to double down on the most egregious cases, the most sensitive context that they could potentially be involved in, and they just continue to make it worse and they're selling themselves. And, you know, we've been talking about this a bunch of. But they continue to sell themselves as this way of making Warfare and violence streamlined. If you've seen some of their ads, I don't know if you've seen some of it. Have you seen some of their ads? If you look at some.

[Susan McComber]

I'm on Spotify, I swear.

[Linnea Freer]

You don't joke. Yes. Oh no.

[Susan McComber]

ICE ads. Sorry. Gosh, can't get in all the organizations. Oh yeah, there were adverts for ICE on Spotify.

[Deborah Frances White]

Please leave Spotify if you can, from the bds.

[Susan McComber]

Actually, you can, you must. If you would like to know how to leave Spotify, come and see me afterwards and I will tell you exactly

[Linnea Freer]

how to do it.

[Susan McComber]

Sorry to interrupt, but yes, what were you saying?

[Dr. Matt Mahmoudy]

Ads. So they have their ads as for their products being used in warfare. They will show this flashy scene of this helicopter that's leaving the base and it's being instructed by an operator that sat on the other side and looking at these flashy numbers and the screen that tells them exactly where to go and where to send this helicopter and where they should strike. And effectively what they're selling is this idea that with the press of one button and with just one interface, they can make the whole life cycle of

[Deborah Frances White]

war

[Dr. Matt Mahmoudy]

end in like five minutes. That they can execute a war and precisely engage in warfare and killing in the most efficient, fast and cost effective way possible. But what they're hiding is that so much of how that happens, who is being selected and why, what data source is being used and why, who had oversight over any of this, who gave permission to the data being handed over, all of that is collapsed. None of that is visible to the operator. And in fact, if you guys are aware of the forward deployed engineer that they often send out. So like Palantir products don't work without Palantir sending one of their engineers out to literally redesign the entire organization's data infrastructure so that products can work with them. So only the Palantir engineer and Palantir knows exactly how this data is going to be used and what means what, what variables translate into what flags. And nobody else does. None of the consultants in the nhs, none of the, you know, commanders and operational people that are sat with the interfaces themselves are necessarily aware of the ins and outs of the these systems. Only Palantir.

[Deborah Frances White]

So they create their entire criteria themselves and they don't even share that.

[Dr. Matt Mahmoudy]

They don't share it. It's all bespoke. When you go to their website it looks completely generalist, but when you buy their product, they send a forward deploy engineer who will redesign your entire infrastructure to fit their model.

[Deborah Frances White]

If you could get rid of AI. Would you?

[Dr. Matt Mahmoudy]

Absolutely. AI is a. Is a marketing tool, right? AI is a marketing tool that repackages violence as something that's sexy, marketable and efficient. That's all it is. Nobody's ever telling you what the tool actually is. When they say AI, they just tell you that the computer can do things. We promise. But has anybody ever told you that this is a predictive policing tool? Or this is a biometric recognition tool? Or that this is an algorithm that compares data sets and tries to glean xyz? Nobody actually tells you what the product is. And when they don't tell you what the product is and when it's efficient and cost effective, usually you're the product or the target.

[Deborah Frances White]

You're the product or the target. My God.

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[Deborah Frances White]

Who would like to ask Matt or Linnea a question? I've been reading, listening, learning to everything. Not just tonight, but in the past couple of years. We can't just talk anymore. We have to do. And after that discussion yesterday in Parliament where all these MPs were shouting objection, etc. And the government just go, oh, well, they're here now. So as Greta famously said, no more blah, blah, blah. So what do we do?

[Dr. Matt Mahmoudy]

I mean, okay, I can kick us off. There are local ways of getting involved. In particular in the uk. We were just talking about this before. Palantir wasn't a household name, you know, six years ago, it was hardly a household name a week ago. In the last two weeks, as Linnea will tell you, like, things have really gotten massive. And Palantir is in a way relatable at the kitchen table in our homes in a way that it has never been before. And we need to seize on that momentum. That looks like going to your MP and telling your MP that you will not have Palantir run your NHS, that you will not have PalantiR service the FTP. It looks like going to our various partner organizations as well as Amnesty's local chapters, and getting involved with actually going out and galvanizing the community as well as, again, your MPs towards taking action on Palantir. And it's remembering that none of these products work without our data, they don't. They're nothing. The entire, what they call ontology, the thing that mirrors the infrastructure that they can then deploy programs on, that's our data. Right. So if we refuse to have our data used in those ways, by going to our MPs and perhaps in some instances even going potentially to the Information Commissioner's office, potentially making complaints along GDPR lines, you know, there are ways that we can engage in using our own ownership of our data as well. In saying no, can we say to

[Deborah Frances White]

our GP in our hospital, we don't want. Can. Can you withdraw, like the way that Manchester isn't using it, or is there no way of doing that?

[Linnea Freer]

No. So the national data opt out doesn't cover this because there's like a clause that they use where it's. Because it's tied into your direct care, that's kind of their way of getting out of it. So the national data opt out only applies to kind of data that would go to research. So, yeah, you can't. So GP data is slightly different at the moment. It shouldn't be shared. There are instances where we've been told that it has been kind of put onto the FTP without disclosure, but we're now doing a bit more of a push in kind of the GP world. And actually the Doctors Association UK came out really quite strongly against this just the other day. So I think the. Whilst we individually can't be like, I refuse to, we can collectively build our power as kind of workers, patients, and that's what we've been doing for the last two years. So we're actually a pretty well organized campaign, really. We have local groups all across the country. So if you go onto the Health Workers for a Free Palestine Instagram, there's like a link tree and you can kind of contact us if you live here. There's definitely loads of local groups in London, but not just health worker groups, we're kind of health worker and patient groups and we're working now very, very closely with Amnesty, which is great. It's been actually really refreshing to see a group like Amnesty recognize the importance of grassroots coalitions. So we're working together and understanding the realities and our kind of localities and where the pressure points are to push. And that's actually why. That's why we're having this discussion today. That's how it's got to be so big now at this point, because we've really been working quite hard on this. So, yeah, if you want to get involved in the campaign, really, that's probably the best thing that you can do at this point.

[Deborah Frances White]

There's a break point in the Palantir contract with the NHS in 2027, right?

[Linnea Freer]

Yes.

[Deborah Frances White]

So that's the point where we need to be working towards that date where we say. And that's where we exit. What is that date?

[Linnea Freer]

February 2027. I don't, I don't know if there is an exact date, but February 2027

[Deborah Frances White]

is the break clause, like in your lease for your rented flat.

[Linnea Freer]

Yeah.

[Deborah Frances White]

You say to the landlord, actually the carpets are awful. And you keep saying, spying on me. So I'm gonna go.

[Linnea Freer]

So.

[Deborah Frances White]

So that's what we're aiming towards. So we need to be putting a lot of pressure on between now. That's not long to go between now and the 20th of February 2027.

[Linnea Freer]

I should do like a little shout out actually as well. Given that we're in London on May 10th. I should have checked the date. It's either 9th or 10th. Again. If you go to our Instagram, you'll be able to find it. But we're having an onboarding day in London and in Manchester and there's also going to be like an Amnesty onboarding Sess the 28th. Yeah.

[Deborah Frances White]

Amica George, can you figure out what those exact dates are so we can give you the mic and you can tell those dates at the end? Oh, okay.

[Linnea Freer]

May 10th.

[Deborah Frances White]

She knows.

[Linnea Freer]

And April 28th.

[Deborah Frances White]

Okay, sorry, I spoke over that now. So this is hopeless. Amica, can I give you the mic?

[Susan McComber]

Yeah, I was going to give you my mic.

[Deborah Frances White]

This is amica George from Amnesty International. She was a. She was one of the youngest guests we've ever had on the podcast because she did a massive campaign when she was a school student on getting period products into every school in this country and she succeeded. She's now a very grown up and proper like Amnesty International. That's how I see her. I see as like, oh my God. But she is 27 and she does not want to be talked to about bits like this. Cut this out of the podcast, Tom AM George 1. When are the dates, the key dates?

[Linnea Freer]

It's April 28th. If you go online and you look up Amnesty UK, no Palantiran on NHS, there's a webinar where we'll be handing over to health workers for a Free Palestine to bring everyone onto the campaign. And then we're going to organize to onboard people into their local chapters to push their local trust or ICB to say no to Palantir.

[Deborah Frances White]

Okay. So join that Campaign. Thank you. And we need. Because we need. You're right. We need boots on the ground. We need people actually acting. We can't just. Just post about it on Instagram and think we've done it. Those days are gone, sadly.

[Susan McComber]

And also, and. And, like, obviously, we've got the break clause. That's so funny in 2027. But vote, because this. This came through under a. Under a Tory government.

[Linnea Freer]

Yeah. It's council elections coming up soon as well, so.

[Susan McComber]

Absolutely. So talk.

[Deborah Frances White]

Get everybody out. And the more we can vote tactically. Tactically to. You know. Yeah, the vote tactically and tell labor through your vote that you will not stick with labor if they stick with Palantir. But we can make a real feature

[Susan McComber]

of that, because they're not. They're not gonna. We're not gonna allow Palantir to have control over our data if we have a Green Party Prime Minister, like, that's just not going to happen. So don't feel hopeless, because I'm with you.

[Linnea Freer]

Like, I feel really, really hopeless a

[Deborah Frances White]

lot of the time.

[Susan McComber]

But this is something that is active. It's real. The only reason why Palantir got that contract is because it was fucking Boris. Like, none of us are going to be voting Tory in here. Are you?

[Deborah Frances White]

I don't think anyone's voting Tory anymore. They're on the polls. They're like, even people who vote Tory aren't voting Tory.

[Susan McComber]

I'm a feminist, but, like, obviously the Tories are, like, crashing to the ground when it's a black woman who's a fucking, like, racist.

[Deborah Frances White]

Can we have another question from the audience? Let's get in there. There's somebody there. And then somebody down here. Great. Is there anything we can do, like, on a personal, daily basis to prevent ourselves being surveilled quite so much? Like, I'll wear a tinfoil hat if you tell me to at this point.

[Susan McComber]

Really good question, Matt.

[Deborah Frances White]

What can we do to stop being surveilled so much?

[Dr. Matt Mahmoudy]

I mean, the major thing that you can do is, again, going back to the question of how is this collective versus individual? The major thing you can do is vote, because who is in power has such a massive impact on what technologies get deployed. The other thing that you can do at the personal level is being aware of the fact that anything that you put out effectively in the public sphere can be sucked up by probabilistic algorithms that can make determinations about who you are, where you're likely to be, what you deserve, et cetera. And so in those instances, you Know, having. Making sure that your social media engagement, for example, is on social media platforms that are secure, that are encrypted, that potentially aren't meta, they hardly exist. However, no one is on on those.

[Deborah Frances White]

Your friends will be.

[Dr. Matt Mahmoudy]

We'll be on it.

[Susan McComber]

What. What are they? What are the encrypted ones? We.

[Deborah Frances White]

We have a few.

[Dr. Matt Mahmoudy]

So, like, you can contain your social groups to Signal, right? They're not public. Like, they're not public like your Instagrams and your Twitter's. X's.

[Deborah Frances White]

If I need to fill a theater though, right, I can't just be on signal because these people will not hear about the show.

[Dr. Matt Mahmoudy]

That's very true.

[Deborah Frances White]

I'm a feminist. But I did, you know, I did post a very handsome picture of you, Matt.

[Dr. Matt Mahmoudy]

You're very kind.

[Deborah Frances White]

This was not that well sold until I did that. And then bang.

[Susan McComber]

I was so offended. I was like, what, don't they fucking like me? And then post a picture of you? And went to the room. Thank you.

[Deborah Frances White]

Okay. Okay. More questions from the audience.

[Dr. Matt Mahmoudy]

Wait, wait, can I add one more thing? Just. It's really, really, really. One thing that you can do as well is, you know, we are aware that facial recognition cameras, for example, are everywhere across the uk, but especially in London. You can take protective measures when you're participating in protests, for example, and make sure that you're obscuring your face. Wear a face mask, put on what we call dazzle makeup, which in ways obscures you from the algorithm or, you know, and I'm not promoting this, but people have engaged in different forms of civil disobedience in terms of the cameras, in terms of making people aware that they're there. Some groups have put some stickers on them, some people have done other things and, you know, take from that what you will.

[Deborah Frances White]

He's very careful there, Matt. Yeah, he works for Amnesty. Some people have done some things. I'm not advocating for those things.

[Susan McComber]

Love it.

[Deborah Frances White]

Yes, please.

[Reproductive Justice Advocate]

So I work in reproductive justice and I'm here this evening through abortion rights and reproductive rights at Divis Collective. And we've already seen in the us, even before AI became this ubiquitous, we've seen use of period tracking data be used to prosecute women for abortions. And with the way that we are going, particularly tying Palantir into the nhs, what does that look like for. For one of the biggest constraints to feminism, which is women's access to reproductive autonomy. Like, what's the direction for that?

[Dr. Matt Mahmoudy]

What we've seen is a sort of a laissez faire approach to what companies are given free roam to corporatize and to make a profit off of. And that gained particular traction in the United States when indeed Roe v. Wade was abolished and instead ended up in an era in which data around where people were moving from to get reproductive care was being sold to the highest bidder. Data brokers finally had their big windfall, as it were, because suddenly government had made it completely fair to use this data in this way. And I think what this does is it sets a new standard in terms of what is often referred to as a reasonable expectation of privacy. When what the reasonable expectation of privacy is moves lower, what companies can do and what governments and judges will see as acceptable also moves. And so in part, what we can do here in the UK in stopping similar developments in which profiteering can happen on the back of our data, even access to reproductive care, if the worst government is elected, is to right now draw the line at Palantir and say that we will not have this data be shared in these ways, that our reasonable expectation of privacy is far higher, that we expect that our reproductive care, that our political affiliations, that our access to all of these services that we have a right to are protected and not shared with a company that's engaged in potentially contributing to international grave crimes in Palestine and enabling the persecution of people who are seeking basic reproductive care in the United States.

[Deborah Frances White]

Any more questions?

[Susan McComber]

Just to jump off on that, we did an episode, the last episode that I did of Jane Bradley from New York Times where we were talking about Farage and him sidling up to Christian nationalist parties. So that's a really fantastic episode to listen to. But also, again, vote like it's. That is not going to happen under a Green Party government.

[Deborah Frances White]

So really, really, really important. Yeah. Or even a left wing coalition that was. That's more left wing. You know, I'm really hoping for a left wing, big old left wing coalition that forces where, you know, if Zach cannot get in in the next election, that forces labor to go more left. We've got lots more questions. Let's try and get through them because I want.

[Linnea Freer]

This kind of leans on from this.

[Deborah Frances White]

I was, I'd become aware of Palantir

[Linnea Freer]

because as I understand it, they also have stakes in most of the main

[Deborah Frances White]

dating apps that we might use, so.

[Susan McComber]

Dating apps?

[Linnea Freer]

No.

[Deborah Frances White]

Do they?

[Linnea Freer]

Yeah, there's some kind of big business connection there.

[Deborah Frances White]

Oh,

[Linnea Freer]

I, I actually can't. I can't even remember which one it was anymore. I don't, I don't remember. What do you Remember which dating app it was? No, but, like, I have. I have a friend that just sends me, like, oh, not another one. And I think the other day as well, someone said that a. A website, it kind of basically said that Uber, it looked like they were maybe gonna start using Foundry. I. That's not verified yet, but it's. It was like they had the. The domain. The, like, website domain was basically being used and I think that's kind of how a lot of people are tracking who's using Foundry.

[Deborah Frances White]

So that's the Uber she took to the place where she got the abortion. We know because of her period tracking act. She. We know who, who got her pregnant because of this. I mean, it's just. How hopeful are you, we can stop this? Matt?

[Susan McComber]

I do, I do want to hear that. I do want to hear the rest of the question. But yes, extremely, extremely, extremely hopeful.

[Dr. Matt Mahmoudy]

We've just seen them kicked out of New York's health services. Right. Like, that's a massive win in New York City, where they got their first foothold. Yeah, that's if they can be kicked out of there. I mean, if it can happen there, it can happen anywhere.

[Susan McComber]

It was Mamdani again, who you vote

[Linnea Freer]

for, I mean, is Ma'.

[Susan McComber]

Am.

[Linnea Freer]

I feel like it was like the workers and the patients, though.

[Dr. Matt Mahmoudy]

Sorry, yes, under Mamdani, it was everyone else campaigning.

[Linnea Freer]

There is one of the apps that they're now connected with. I can't remember, sorry, is it all of them?

[Susan McComber]

Is it bum?

[Linnea Freer]

Even worse.

[Dr. Matt Mahmoudy]

But just to add to this, the question is not only about what companies does Palanty have a stake in that are out there as being dating apps and that are immediately visible and available to us. It's also about what are the data brokers that have access to both the data coming out of the dating apps and potentially work with Palantir and Palantir's products, because those data brokers are ultimately the ones that are aggregating all of the information from your social engagements with these apps and selling them to the highest bidder. And those companies are often some of the shadiest ones that are engaged in selling us out right before our eyes. But we have no idea who they are, what their names are or who's got stakes on them.

[Deborah Frances White]

I would like to start a commune in the Outer Hebrides, if anyone's willing to come with me. Who else has got a question? There's a question there.

[Linnea Freer]

First of all, I want to recognise my privilege for NHS Scotland because they are brilliant. So round of applause for all the workers. But I just want to know what impact does this have on NHC Scotland? If you know, and also as someone who's very, very sick and considering private health care, what does that impact have on sharing that data with private health care? And you know, the back and forth

[Deborah Frances White]

of that very good Linnea.

[Linnea Freer]

So, yeah, I think NHS Scotland and Wales are quite correctly just observing from afar at the moment, but I don't actually know that much more about it, unfortunately. And yeah, I guess with respect to your question about private health care, it. It would just be the next venture for them. Right?

[Deborah Frances White]

Yeah, they're not currently in private health care.

[Linnea Freer]

I actually don't know.

[Deborah Frances White]

I mean we don't know if they're in hinge or not. So how would we know if they're in bupa question up there. It was just the thought about private health care is actually, is there a chance that the NHS will be given over Palantir but private health care won't and then privacy will be a luxury. Oh, good point. Oh, can you afford privacy? Yeah. Okay, one more question up there. I think there's one more question really quick.

[Susan McComber]

Let's go at the back.

[Reproductive Justice Advocate]

Just wondering, from a GDPR perspective and all the laws around gdpr, can we opt out of plan tier or whatever it's called.

[Linnea Freer]

No, no, no. So this is what I mentioned before, where there is like an international NHS data opt out that is in place but that only relies on your data going towards research. So because the types of tools that they're kind of making and the platform, they're claiming that it is directly involved with your patient care and as a result you can't opt out of it.

[Deborah Frances White]

So we have to campaign really, really hard.

[Dr. Matt Mahmoudy]

However, if there was a leak at any point that any information had been used through the Palantir platform and been de anonymized and been used in other purposes than for your care and have been abused as a result of their processing through Palantir platforms, you have a right to then submit for a GDPR complaint and submitting for. And I know this is like down the line because we haven't had this case yet and we may not get that case. And so it's really worth that we campaign at this collective level. But there is a possibility as part

[Reproductive Justice Advocate]

of the campaigning, can we just all submit complaints that we don't want?

[Linnea Freer]

Yes, there's a tool that you can use.

[Reproductive Justice Advocate]

Can we just all go to the ICO and just submit random complaints

[Dr. Matt Mahmoudy]

you can't go through? So. So again, you would need to have a case in which you show that there is a breach, that your data has been used potentially in a way that, that is abusive towards, outside of the mandate of how it's supposed to be used within the patient care, you

[Deborah Frances White]

must be able to hack in and make that happen. Come on.

[Susan McComber]

Come on back.

[Dr. Matt Mahmoudy]

Amnesty Tech isn't quite spy tech, but yeah, it's.

[Susan McComber]

But yeah, there is a. I think

[Linnea Freer]

this all the time. Yeah.

[Susan McComber]

What are they doing?

[Linnea Freer]

Yeah, yeah, I know they are biding

[Deborah Frances White]

their time for sure.

[Linnea Freer]

But on that there is a. There's a tool that you can use. Good Lord. Projects have a tool. Over 65,000 people have already used it to complain to their local NHS trust, to say that they don't want to have their data going towards it. They kind of recognize that. They kind of take all these complaints and they go, well, we can't help it. But I think it is actually registering with them and the trusts that aren't going ahead with it. See that?

[Deborah Frances White]

So we go to the Good Law Project website. Yes, there's a search for NHS complaints.

[Linnea Freer]

Yeah, Palantir.

[Deborah Frances White]

Yeah, it'll come up. Okay, so we've got to finish. But I just want to say, is there anything you came to say that you didn't get to say?

[Dr. Matt Mahmoudy]

Matt, we need to get Palantir out of our nhs. We know this, this is for reasons of your data, your future, your safety, this country's ability to operate on a democratic basis in which it isn't controlled by a company. But the second thing is also that NHS is crucially a part of the political economy that contributes to genocide, unlawful occupation and apartheid in Palestine. There's actually an obligation on third party states to ensure that they're not contributing with economic activity under international law. That could lead to the worsening of genocide, that could lead to unlawful occupation continuing. And we know that the Commission of Inquiry of the UN found that there was genocide in Gaza, in Palestine, and we know the advisory opinion of the International Court of Justice has said that there is a plausible risk of genocide. So again, it activates that prevention duty by third party states. So actually the UK is obligated to ensure that it's not contributing with that economic activity. And so Palantir, by being given a platform here, by being supported through gaining foothold and generating profit on the back of our data and our access to the NHS is actually being given profits to continue what they're doing in the context of Gaza and Palestine. So one way in which we stifle and choke that political economy of Genocide of unlawful occupation apartheid is by kicking nhs. By kicking. Not the nhs, sorry, by kicking Palantir out of the nhs. Not a Freudian slip, I promise.

[Deborah Frances White]

Matt, my MP is Keir Starmer. Would you help me write an email to him?

[Dr. Matt Mahmoudy]

Absolutely. Anytime.

[Deborah Frances White]

If you help me write an email to that effect. Cause he's a human rights lawyer. Lol. Linnea, is there anything you came to say you didn't get to say?

[Linnea Freer]

I guess just in a nutshell, because I think, you know, we all sit here and we sigh and we think these things are too big to overcome, but they're not if we move together collectively. And that's what we've been doing with our refusal to. To comply. So, yeah, just make sure that you tell everyone that this is a very, very intersectional campaign. This isn't a single issue campaign. It's not just about the nhs. It's actually not even just about Palantir. Right. There's actually numerous other nefarious companies that could come in and take their place if they wanted to, sort of. This is about privatization, sovereign data control. The one contract is just a strategic target so that we can kind of weaken their plans to expand into the UK. But we can do this. And February 2027, we will be victorious.

[Deborah Frances White]

Yes. Join the campaigns, go to the Amnesty website, get involved. Come to this day if you can. We'll have all of this on the show notes. And on the 30th of April, we will be at the Leicester Square Theatre, which is a 400 seat theatre, so if you could come, that would be great. And if you could bring 20 or 30 of your closest friends that you've just met on signal, that would be super great. It's me and Riolina with Carol Caudwallada and Lucia, who was the only one of the only journalists allowed in the Ghislaine Maxwell trial. We're not going into any gorgeous details about Epstein because I worry people are going to feel trapped in a theater. We're talking about the conditions that allowed it, why we haven't got justice and what we can do going forward and what it means for our society. It's going to be a great show. There's also going to be. There's going to be comedians, there's going to be music. It's going to be like a bigger one. So if you could all get a ticket for that, that would be fantastic. 30th of April and back here on the 14th of May, where we're working with the Global Human Rights Group about how the Global situation for women and girls has changed since Trump's been in. And then back here on the 22nd, and this one's a really big one, it's just back in this room. But it's Alice McCool, who wrote an incredible piece in the Byline Times about a transatlantic network of anti abortion lobbyists using legal challenges and coordinated campaigns to shape NHS policy and challenge bodily autonomy in Britain. So it's. It's Christian nationalists, basically from America using money and influence to try and change our policies. That is, you will want to come to that one. That one's 22nd of May back here. There's other shows, you can look at them on the website, but those are the ones I wanted to tell you about. Please meet people in the bar, chat to them. Every night after the show, I see people talking about this stuff, changing phone numbers, you know, telling each other about their own campaigns and we'd love you to do that, Susie. Do you have anything to plug?

[Susan McComber]

I've got absolutely nothing to plug.

[Deborah Frances White]

Right, Anything else to plug? Anything to tell us about? Anything you want us to do, get involved with. That's the names of the campaign.

[Linnea Freer]

Yeah, just, just join. Go check out Health Workers for a Free Palestine. Like I said, onboarding days, 10th of May, they're happening in London and Manchester, but also you can find your local group, we can put you in touch with them and just get organized.

[Deborah Frances White]

Great.

[Susan McComber]

Well, I do have one thing to plug.

[Deborah Frances White]

Yep.

[Susan McComber]

Can you please, please, please share this episode with all your friends?

[Linnea Freer]

All the Road to Gilead episodes, they

[Susan McComber]

are brilliant, they are specific and they are literally geared for us to act. Getting into rooms like this, it's really, really lovely, but it means nothing if we don't leave the rooms and then do whatever we need to, whatever we can in order to stop these nefarious companies and people and parties gutting this country of the things that make it so great, like the nhs. So please, unplugging this show. Share with all your friends.

[Linnea Freer]

Thank you.

[Deborah Frances White]

Oh, and Shanti would like me to plug this week's episode. Anyone else want to plug anything? She's in it. She's in it. It's about endometriosis and a landmark legal case about women being fired for having endometriosis and making endometriosis a disability that is out right now. You can listen to it now. Come along, get involved. Sign up to our mailing list is the best thing. Guiltyfirmliness.com Sign up the mailing list. Any Road to Gilead activities, which is all about this Fighting of the far right will come up there. Also. I've written a lot about this in my book, which is now out in paperback. So you can afford it. It's called Six. It's called Six Conversations We're Scared to have by Deborah Frances White. And it's in all good bookshops and quite a lot of mediocre ones. So get that now. Thank you so much. A few of my trans friends lately have been saying that they've been quite dehydrated because they've been going out and they feel really like they don't want to use the loo. So they don't drink and so could you just look out for your trans friends? Maybe send them a text? Just, just ask, ask your friends to go. You know, ask your friend. Do you want me to come to the loo with you? Yes, because that helps if you're chatting and then people, you know don't want to get involved in that and just, just look out, look out and support trans stuff. Elliot Page is coming. I've seen it. And do is doing a full shake trans Shakespeare. And I thought if we all just buy tickets and get involved. I'll see you there. Could I have an absolutely huge, huge, huge round of applause for Linnea Freer? Everything you're doing, and that's applause is not just for what you did tonight, but it's for everything you're doing every

[Linnea Freer]

day and the whole campaign.

[Deborah Frances White]

You're doing two jobs and we really appreciate it to protect us. And Dr. Matt Mahmoudy who is also doing two jobs. We'd love to have you back on. We want to know more.

[Dr. Matt Mahmoudy]

We want to know more.

[Deborah Frances White]

I'd love to do a whole other episode. We should do a big town hall with you guys. My incredible co host Susan McComber. Do get involved in more Rocha Gilead events, more Amnesty International events. Come along. You've been an absolutely wonderful audience. I would happily have you in the same order next time. So come back to the next shows. I'm happy with this exact same audience just following us around. You've been absolutely wonderful. I've been Deborah Frances White. We've been the Guilty Feminist. Thank you, Good night.

[Susan McComber]

Sorry, sorry. Big, big, big round of applause for Deborah Frances White.

[Deborah Frances White]

You have been listening to the Guilty Feminist with me, Deborah Frances White, guest co host Susan McComber and our very special guests, Dr. Matt Mahmoudy and Linnea Frear. Request recording engineer was Grundy Lizimbra. The Guilty Feminist theme tune was composed by Mark Hodge. The producer was Tom Slinsky for the Spontaneity Shop. Thanks to Junior Dicio Zaynab, Mohamed Ned Sedgwick and everyone at the Museum of Comedy, as well as all of you for listening. For more information about this and other episodes, visit guiltyfeminist.com.

[Carrington College Announcer]

Your next chapter in healthcare starts at Carrington College's School of Nursing in Portland. Join us for our open house on Tuesday, January 13th from 4 to 7pm you'll tour our campus, see live demos, meet instructors, and learn about our Associate Degree in Nursing program that prepares you to become a registered nurse. Take the first step toward your nursing career. Save your spot now at Carrington Edu Events. For information on program outcomes, visit Carrington.

[Linnea Freer]

Edu Sci Stitch Fix Stop shopping. Get styled A Plus on the outfit Ms. Turner, you are about to slay parent teacher conferences.

[Deborah Frances White]

Oh these just the most perfect fitting jeans my stylist sent me.

[Prime Obsession Announcer]

Oh hello you who didn't set one foot in a mall and still looks amazing.

[Linnea Freer]

Just share your size, style and budget and your stylist sends personalized looks right to your door. Stitch Fix get started today@stitch fix.com to my stylist, this look is dedicated to you. Thank you, thank you.