482. Ten for Ten #10: Sara Pascoe

Summary

The Guilty Feminist – Episode 482: Ten for Ten #10 with Sarah Pascoe

Date: May 11, 2026
Host: Deborah Frances-White
Guest: Sarah Pascoe

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Episode Overview

In this special “Ten for Ten” episode celebrating a decade of The Guilty Feminist, comedian and long-time Guilty Feminist regular Sarah Pascoe joins host Deborah Frances-White. The conversation traces their feminist journeys, reflects on pivotal moments in the world and on stage, and revisits how comedy, culture, sexuality, and activism have changed (and stayed the same) over ten years. With warmth and candor, both women acknowledge personal hypocrisies, growth, and the ongoing struggle for gender equality.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Reflecting on a Decade: Early Days and Evolution

• Early Guilty Feminist Appearances (04:06–07:00)

  • Sarah recalls being an “early” guest, appearing in episode 4.
  • Both reminisce about initial podcast themes, such as pornography, and the candid honesty that set the tone.
  • Sarah admits to feelings of envy upon not being the very first guest (“I’m not proud of it...but when I saw other people doing things I wanted to do, I would go, oh, I want that.” – Sarah, 04:35).

• Podcast Format and Community

  • Discussion of the evolving format: from posed challenges (“Sophie’s challenge was to stop watching porn and mine was to watch porn...I’d never watched porn before.” – Deborah, 06:29) to a broader analysis of feminism, shame, and desire for knowledge.

Pornography, Sexuality, Technology, and Social Change

• Embarrassment and Distance from Onscreen Sexuality (07:31–10:10)

  • Sarah: “I have the morality of a nine year old. Pornography makes me cry. I hate that it exists.” (09:13)
  • She relates her discomfort even with kissing in films, preferring the 1940s wave-crashing metaphor for sex (“I like script. I like words. People talking.” – Sarah, 07:54).
  • A clip from her first appearance exposes how her feelings haven’t changed in a decade.

• Analysis of Porn’s Societal Effects (10:18–12:43)

  • Sarah discusses the neurological impacts of pornography: “They’re only just really finding out what that does to people’s brains... It can restructure everything. Like a drug addict, you’re not getting pleasant neurotransmitters.” (10:49)
  • Both agree on the importance of sex education and societal failure to prep young people for the digital world of sex and relationships: “The adults in their lives didn’t know what they should be talking to them about, how they should be protecting them...” (12:43)

• Tech, Screen Time, and Childhood (13:26–18:36)

  • Sarah humorously proposes, “I would just say turn the Internet off until we can work out how to eke it in and use it properly…two hour screen time max. That includes television.” (13:27)
  • Both discuss being “the last generation” to know life pre-internet, and Sarah reflects on parenting in the tech age: “If I could have another husband and it was an iPad… Actually, it’s not even an iPad because they broke the iPad. It’s an Amazon Fire.” (17:46)

Feminism, Comedy, and Motherhood

• Motherhood's Impact on Feminism (18:16–20:45)

  • Sarah candidly admits: “Having children has made me a much worse feminist. I’m much less engaged, I have less time for things.” (19:19)
  • Despite expectations, motherhood didn’t bring those “moments of joy and love”—Sarah rebuffs, “That’s not…no, I wouldn't actually.” (18:37)
  • On raising sons: “I would love them not to be hugely ambitious…They don’t want to be King.” (20:19, 20:45)

• 'I'm a Feminist, But…' Classic Moments (21:16–22:56)

  • Sarah’s iconic self-deprecating admissions are replayed, including her fantasy Idris Elba is watching her dance and a notorious Spice Girls–Boko Haram joke.
  • The infamous line: “I’m a feminist, but I would sell the Spice Girls to Boko Haram to get on Strictly Come Dancing.” (22:33) led to complaints and a discussion about comedy’s limits.

Comedy as Social Change and Ethical Quandaries

• Comedy, Offence, and Political Edge (23:13–27:34)

  • Both comedians parse the tension between edgy hyperbolic jokes and real harm or offense.
  • Importance of comedy in activism and social learning, e.g., James Acaster’s “surreal but political” standup as a vessel for mental health advocacy.
  • “It's a golden age of comedy…people are doing incredibly well-crafted one hour shows that are personal, that are political, that are fanciful.” (Deborah, 27:34)

• Feminist Comedy and Broader Representation (27:59–28:59)

  • Dawn of more diverse voices and approaches in feminist comedy.
  • Note on current difficulties for traditional (white, male, heteronormative) routines: “Hardest thing is to be a 21-year-old white man who wants to talk about wanking into a sock.” (Sarah, 28:52)

Standup, Writing, and Collaboration

• Blending Standup and Prose (30:05–31:40)

  • Sarah’s “Animal: The Autobiography of a Female Body” enabled her to separate serious subjects from the flippancy of standup. Publishing means “someone to give you that amount of their time and their attention.” (Sarah, 31:23)

• Community and Influence (32:46–41:22)

  • The podcast as communal art space, shaping both careers and capacity for new material; cross-pollination of audience and performer.
  • “It's always a comedy podcast…you’re also giving people an opportunity.” (Sarah, 41:22)
  • Reflection on the importance of comedians performing actual standup on the podcast, rather than just conversation or interview.

The State of Feminism: Gains, Setbacks, and Urgency

• Disappointment and Sobriety about Progress (43:03–50:06)

  • Sarah expresses that she would have been hopeful a decade ago, but now feels “it is really difficult not to be disheartened and think it’s too hard.” (43:08)
  • Major topics: the normalization and exposure of sexual abuse, referencing Gisele Pellico and Epstein: "The horror...we should stop everything else and smash the world open." (44:17)
  • There’s advancement in awareness, but feeling that women still bear the brunt of the work.

• Sexuality, Consent, and Humanity (48:06–49:34)

  • The podcast digs into the complexity and danger of male sexuality—a need for nuanced sexual education: “That animal drive, we are now trying to be civilised and not hurt each other. That’s such a massive jump.” (Sarah, 49:02)
  • Calls for more integrated conversations about sexuality, consent, and healthy behavior.

• Intersectionality and Remaining Work (50:21–51:25)

  • Sarah notes encouraging progress: “I would have...said things that didn’t include trans women properly, that didn’t include women of different races... So more awareness and more work in that area is very, very positive.”

What’s Next? Hope and Action

• Future of Feminism (51:08–54:04)
  • Emphasis on tackling technology and online harms (shout-outs to Laura Bates’ work): “Laura Bates…she’s a treasure, but also she’s a martyr...Because of the men she has enraged.” (Sarah, 51:16)
  • On leading with love and not just anger: “The stuff that really, I think works is the leading with love...if we’re not speaking for you yet, tell us why.” (Sarah, 52:42)
  • The dream: "A generation...look back and go, 'oh, that's weird, so we had to have a movement for equality.'" (Sarah, 54:01)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On pornography & discomfort:
  “I have the morality of a nine year old. Pornography makes me cry. I hate that it exists.”
  – Sarah Pascoe (09:13)

• On comedy and offence:
  “It is sort of...this is a thing about comedy in general...if you take the words literally, it is horror what you're saying.”
  – Sarah Pascoe (22:56)

• On societal failure with the internet:
  “The adults in their lives didn’t know what they should be talking to them about...they were sort of told not to.”
  – Sarah Pascoe (13:41)

• On motherhood and feminist engagement:
  “Having children has made me a much worse feminist. I’m much less engaged, I have less time for things.”
  – Sarah Pascoe (19:19)

• On the hopes for raising sons:
  “I would love them not to be that confident...they don’t want to be King.”
  – Sarah Pascoe (20:19, 20:45)

• The infamous ‘I’m a Feminist, But…’
  “I’m a feminist, but I would sell the Spice Girls to Boko Haram to get on Strictly Come Dancing.”
  – Sarah Pascoe (22:33)

• On progress in intersectionality:
  “I would have really meant well, but I would have denied other people’s lived experience. So more awareness and more work in that area is very, very positive.”
  – Sarah Pascoe (50:21)

• On hope and activism:
  “The stuff that really, I think works is the leading with love... No one is left behind. This is for everyone.”
  – Sarah Pascoe (52:42)

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Key Timestamps

• 04:06 – 07:00: Remembering early Guilty Feminist podcasts and themes
• 09:13 – 10:10: Sarah’s discomfort with sexuality in media
• 10:49 – 12:43: Effects of pornography and failures of sex education
• 13:26 – 18:36: Tech, screen time, and parenting in a digital world
• 19:19 – 20:45: Motherhood’s impact on activism and feminism
• 21:16 – 22:56: Classic ‘I’m a Feminist, But…’ lines and comedy boundaries
• 23:13 – 27:34: Comedy’s edge; political standup as activism
• 43:08 – 50:06: Disappointment in feminist progress, sexual violence revelations
• 51:08 – 54:04: Action points for the next 10 years, intersectionality, optimism

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Tone & Style

Playful, intellectually engaged, deeply honest, and committed to examining contradictions in feminist life and comedy. Both host and guest bring vulnerability and humor: “I have the morality of a nine year old…” (09:13), “We should stop everything else and smash the world open.” (44:17), and “That’s a flirty message…to be in bed with you all night.” (32:46).

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Conclusion

This reflective, open-hearted episode blends nostalgia, critique, humor, and hope. Sarah Pascoe and Deborah Frances-White revisit how feminism and comedy have evolved, own their hypocrisies, and chart a path forward—one grounded in both radical empathy and persistent activism.

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Transcript

[Sarah Pascoe]

Get the ice cream love big freezer. It's by the Peas.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Some things are really best not to put off, like defrosting the freezer or

[Sarah Pascoe]

if you're a landlord, sending a copy of the new Government Information Sheet to your existing tenants. You must do this by 31 May or risk a fine. Make sure you're up to date with the new laws.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Find the information [e-mail] rentingischanging hello guilty feminists. I want to talk about something that half the population experiences and the other half should probably understand better gynecological health. Because so many of us grew up with patchy information, some pretty weird myths and general feeling that we should probably just not talk about it. That's why I'm delighted to tell you about Bloody Powerful the Taboo Busting Guide to Periods, Menopause and Everything in between by Dr. Brook van der Molen, illustrated by Hazel Mead and published by Cambridge University Press. This book is a warm, clear and genuinely empowering guide to everything you probably didn't get taught in school, from understanding your periods to navigating menopause and all the confusing questions in between. Dr. Brooke van der Molen is a practicing gynaecology doctor. You might know her online as the Ob Gyn Mum, and she answers so many of the questions we've all quite quietly googled at 2am it's also beautifully illustrated by Hazel Mead, which makes the whole thing feel accessible rather than clinical. If you'd like to learn more or give it to someone who deserves better information about their body, visit cambridge.org bloodypowerful and you can get 20% off with the code bloodypowerful20 at checkout. Because knowledge about our bodies shouldn't be taboo, it should be bloody powerful. Before the podcast, I wanted to let you know that on the 14th of May, we're back at the Museum of Comedy and our guests are from the Global Human rights group looking at the impact all around the world on the backlash against girls and women's sexual and reproductive health rights and how our rights are under a coordinated, well funded attack. They've done an incredibly comprehensive report on this, so you don't want to miss that. Co host is the incredible Jessica foster. Cue. On the 21st of May, I will be interviewing Rose McGowan, who is very, very instrumental in kicking off the MeToo movement and actually stood up to Harvey Weinstein. That show will be at Charleston, which was the house the Bloomsbury group used, so you can actually use the same loo as Virginia Woolf. It's an Absolutely stunning place. So I recommend coming out. It's going to be really lovely. On the 22nd of May, we will be back at the Museum of Comedy with the incredible Alice McCool. I don't know if you saw her recent article in the Byline Times, but she has uncovered a transatlantic network of anti abortion lobbyists using legal challenges and coordinated campaigns to shape NHS policy and challenge bodily autonomy in Britain. That's going to be so important. Do not miss that show if you can possibly make it. Co host the wonderful Felicity Ward. On the 18th of July, we'll be in the Isle of Wight at the Ventnor Fringe Gang. I've never been to the Isle of Wight before, so this is very, very exciting. Brand new Guilty Feminist location. And if you're going up to the Edinburgh Fringe or you'd like to go up, we will be there on the 20th to the 23rd of August every night at the Gilded Balloon Theatre. If you'd like to book these shows, go to guiltyfeminist.com click on live shows. If you'd like to know about more shows as they come in, just join our mailing list at the same website. And now, on with the podcast. Live from London, the Spontaneity Shop presents the guilty feminist 10 for 10 with me, Deborah, Frances White and my very special guest, Sarah Pascoe. Sarah Pascoe, welcome to 10 for 10.

[Sarah Pascoe]

10 for 10. How's it been 10 years, Deborah, how's it been 10 years? And we're both still at 23.

[Deborah Frances-White]

I know, I know. And are only 32, so that's so lucky. So we're interviewing 10 of our guilty Feminist regulars over the years, much loved regulars, and we're talking about the last 10 years and I wondered if you knew how early a Guilty Feminist guest you were. Do you remember what number show that was?

[Sarah Pascoe]

I remember it was relatively early because you and Sophie started the podcast and then you started having guests. And I know it wasn't the first one because I was jealous. I had a thing. I'm not proud of it and it's something I've worked on over the last decade, but when I saw other people doing things I wanted to do, I would go, oh, I want that. So I know it wasn't the first one, but I didn't think maybe it was the third or the fourth. It was relatively soon afterwards that I got the call.

[Deborah Frances-White]

It was, it was. Because I think it was the third show and it was the fourth episode because we were so. The episode one. We just recorded one episode then that first Episode took off.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Yeah. And did you both do nude drawing? Was it something to do with, like, you went. You got drawn nude or you. Yes. You posed for artists. So I remember. I remember listening to it, and it was brilliant. So that was. That was the first one.

[Deborah Frances-White]

That was the first one. So I. Yes, I went and posed for Life drawing, and we had Shappy Khasandi on because she had worked as a life drawing model for a while.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Yeah.

[Deborah Frances-White]

So that was great. And then we did two episodes after that at the RADA Studios, and then we went to Greenwich and we did two episodes, one with you and one with Felicity Ward.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Yes. Okay.

[Deborah Frances-White]

So I think you were episode four.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Yeah. And Felicity was the third beforehand.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Oh, was she?

[Sarah Pascoe]

I'm trying to work out. But anyway, I remember seeing Felicity, and we were both there for each other's recordings.

[Deborah Frances-White]

You were both there for each other's recordings and yours. Do you remember the theme, Paul?

[Sarah Pascoe]

Pornography. I do remember the theme because I think at that point in my life, I was becoming. I was researching pornography. I was learning more about it. I'd never. I still don't utilize pornography to masturbate. So it's something where the rest of humanity is doing something, or it feels like, you know, so the majority of humanity are doing this thing that you don't understand. And I had a lot of questions about it, but at that point in my feminism, I was trying to find out a lot more and have a really educated opinion rather than a. A gut emotional response to something.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yes. That. Well, I was with you. We used to do challenges then, as Sophie's challenge was to stop watching porn, and mine was to watch porn because I'd never watched porn before. I remember, like, going on pornhub and looking at all the different categories, and it was things like, you know, I don't know.

[Sarah Pascoe]

It's very confronting, isn't it? Yeah.

[Deborah Frances-White]

And things like that. And one was British.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Is it? Yes.

[Deborah Frances-White]

And it was a whole category, but it was really just some English girl,

[Sarah Pascoe]

Winston Churchill dressed up.

[Deborah Frances-White]

It was an English girl in a school uniform.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Oh, I see.

[Deborah Frances-White]

But she was a woman. She was a young woman.

[Sarah Pascoe]

I see. But not like Margaret Thatcher being strict.

[Deborah Frances-White]

I'm sure you can find it.

[Sarah Pascoe]

I'm sure you can find it, but it's a wasted opportunity for the British section. I want Battenberg, Margaret Thatcher, Winston Churchill. Okay.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yeah, yeah. So I remember watching it and sort of, you know, doing some kind of parodic rundown of it, and just because it's. It doesn't do anything for me. Either. And I think I'm similar to you. I'm thinking about. Oh, I think it either does something for you or it doesn't.

[Sarah Pascoe]

I think there's that. I think probably it's a physiological thing. I don't like watching people kissing in normal films. I don't know if this is all stuff we said a decade ago. I fast forward stuff. I haven't watched Heated Rivalry. I get embarrassed. I don't think. I don't think people, actors, need to pretend to have sex in films. I just believe that you've done it. Okay.

[Deborah Frances-White]

You like the old 1940s films where they go to kiss and then you see waves crashing on a rock or a train going through a tunnel.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Exactly. I'll just say it.

[Deborah Frances-White]

I get it.

[Sarah Pascoe]

We just had sex. I like script. I like words. People talking about stuff. You can talk about the sex if you've been affected by it emotionally. Great. Just don't need to be there for that.

[Deborah Frances-White]

You don't want to watch Heated Rivalry. I did enjoy Heated Rivalry, I have to say. Yeah, I did. I'm sorry about that. I don't mind it in films.

[Sarah Pascoe]

I don't apologise.

[Deborah Frances-White]

I find it sexy in films to. Did you watch Wuthering Heights?

[Sarah Pascoe]

No. For that reason, it's disgusting. I don't want to see it again. I just like the book.

[Deborah Frances-White]

I.

[Sarah Pascoe]

All the story and.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yeah, well, they don't have sex in the book, but they have a lot of sex in the new film.

[Sarah Pascoe]

I'm scared of it. I haven't. I haven't seen Saltburn yet.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Oh, you must watch Salt. But I. I love Saltburn. But you must not watch Saltburn. You will not enjoy.

[Sarah Pascoe]

I don't think I'm. I'm not cultured in. In an erotic sense.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yes. It's just not. It's not what does it.

[Sarah Pascoe]

I'm prudish. That's it.

[Deborah Frances-White]

So you were the ideal person to talk about porn, but you kind of were in a way, because you. You always have strong analysis on this stuff, like all of your shows. Let's hear a little bit of your first ever appearance on the Guilty feminist. This is 10 years ago, so I'll sound really. Ladies and gentlemen, Sarah Pascoe.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Hello, hello, hello, hello.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Thank you so much for joining us.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Thank you for having me. I've learned a lot already.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yeah. So porn.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Yes.

[Deborah Frances-White]

What would you like to say about it?

[Sarah Pascoe]

Okay, so I was thinking over there. I have to say that my feelings about porn and my opinions about porn are separate. I have the morality of A nine year old pornography makes me cry. I hate that it exists. I hate that people do that for a job. All through my life, even if people kiss on a program, I have to leave the room because I feel like they're having a private moment. And now. And like when I was a child, you know, like with your mom and EastEnders or something, he would kiss and I'd be like, oh, I've just got to go and look at the kitchen. And then. And I'd always run out and in the cinema I have to go, oh, I need to check how much the popcorn is or something. And I have. And then even if I'm on my own, I still, I leave it playing and then just come back when they're finished. And so. Yeah, yeah.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Really? Yeah, yeah. So you, you've not changed in 10 years on that front.

[Sarah Pascoe]

And I've also repeated myself. I forgot we had this exact conversation. I said exactly the same thing.

[Deborah Frances-White]

So interesting.

[Sarah Pascoe]

But it was fresh ground.

[Deborah Frances-White]

No, really, really interesting. But it was, it was like. I think I'd never heard anybody talk about it quite in those terms before.

[Sarah Pascoe]

I think it's because I so feel concerned about giving anyone else looking like it's judgment or shame that I'm really keen to say. I think I'm the aberration here. I'm too far the other way. And that's why I want to think about something intellectually. But here's where my emotional sort of stances.

[Deborah Frances-White]

And you do say, I understand that many people do this in a very empowered way, in an entrepreneurial way, and I don't want to diminish that. But you do have some prophetic ideas here, I think.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Really?

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yes. Let's listen to this pornography use.

[Sarah Pascoe]

They're only just really finding out what that does to people's brains because for a while they had, oh, like sexuality is elastic. Watching certain things can change what you get aroused by. What they found out. Oh, no, it's restructures everything. Like it can make other parts of your life miserable because like a drug addict, you're not getting pleasant neurotransmitters. And in other ways, there's a really sad thing and I think it really isolates people that what you get aroused by might not make you feel like a very good person. But when you're in a cycle of watching harsher or more surprising things, you're then really isolated because you can't say to your friends, it's not even, you know, like in the 90s when people went, oh, look at the Tits on that and had a laugh. Like now it's gotten so much darker,

[Deborah Frances-White]

like the flying nation helicopter man. One thing that Lucy the academic said was that she was talking about the cause and effect. Because if 15 year olds, if the first sort of sex they've ever seen is very demeaning to women and sort of ugly, then that's what will trigger sexual arousal in them and so on and so on.

[Sarah Pascoe]

It comes down to critical stages because 15 is actually quite late, it's earlier than that and that's when it's really problematic. It's not even that you're learning about sex, you're learning about bodies, you're learning. And at critical stages, if it's around 11 or 12, yeah, that's it. And that's really difficult to overcome later.

[Deborah Frances-White]

What you were saying then, which 10 years ago sounded like, oh, is that the case now? We can see this generation of men, a lot of them now will. A lot of young men will refer to themselves as incels, saying, I'm involuntarily celibate. People are on apps, swiping left on people, discarding people, not that swiping left on someone is discarding them. But there's a lot of dysfunction within sexual relationships and dating now and a lot of that clearly has been, you know, There were probably 12 year olds, 15 year olds then, who are now 22, 25, and we didn't protect them.

[Sarah Pascoe]

They grew up around screens and technology. The adults in their lives didn't know what they should be talking to them about, how they should be protecting them, making them efficient users of things, explaining, like what's fictional. The sex education wasn't good enough to prepare them for the world that they were suddenly had access to with not enough limitations. So it's not their fault what's happened to them. The issues and the sad ramifications of some of those things has I think perhaps then made people realise we do need to serve young people better if we're going to keep technology this way. I would say turn the Internet off. If I was Prime Minister, it would not be popular, but we would all get off our screens.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yes.

[Sarah Pascoe]

I would just say turn the Internet off until we can work out how to eke it in and use it properly with the efficient legislation and protect people. Two hour screen time max. Everyone in the family. I think that's it. That includes television.

[Deborah Frances-White]

That includes television, yep.

[Sarah Pascoe]

By the way, yeah, of course, binge that program, but you can't go to work now. I think it's really sad for People who were probably 10 years ago at formative stages, end of primary school, beginning of secondary school, their parents would have no idea what was on the Internet. How would anyone be prepared? Teachers weren't prepared. No, they weren't talking about those things. They were sort of told not to.

[Deborah Frances-White]

We'd never heard of the Manosphere when we were making this podcast that you're listening to now. Like we had not heard of it. And there was a lot of

[Sarah Pascoe]

new.

[Deborah Frances-White]

There were a lot of new ideas on the Internet. But now I was talking to Julia Gillard the other day, who runs the women's Leadership program at Kings, who used to be the Prime Minister of Australia, and she said, now there's a real push to, whenever there's anything gender oriented, to what are we doing for boys? How are we including boys? Because there's an understanding we left boys out. But she was like, we don't yet know what's drawn them to the manosphere, how it's worked, and we don't yet know really how to talk to boys or cater to those needs or re educate people who've been watching a lot of this kind of content. But as you said, the wiring of your brain is permanently altered.

[Sarah Pascoe]

I don't know if it's permanent, perhaps, but I do, you know, in terms of. And also, of course, I'm talking about things that are much more educated people than myself, but in terms of neuroplasticity, how neural pathways, the way you use your brain, changes how your brain communicates with itself. But you can also stop those things and undo them. You're not broken. And that's the process, isn't it? It's working out how people can have the best life possible to flourish. I mean, in terms of, like, how we talk to boys. I think the problem is that we gave boys really mixed messages. We told them so much stuff at the same time, of course, they felt they were being gaslit. In a way, you're telling me this, but also, you know, you're telling me there's equality, but if I go on a date, I'm a heterosexual man, I'm still expected to pay. I'm still expected to be tall, earn money, have nice clothes. So don't tell me things are getting fairer. To respect people, of course they're going, this isn't fair, what you're asking of me. There are still men in my life going, there's a manly way to be that is right. And it's really confusing. And then the industries that make money off insecurity realized there was a whole market of male insecurity they could tap into. So then they were being told by industries that are really good about, you know, we know this as women making us feel really shit about themselves. Oh my God, Men have got money too. We can make them feel weedy rather than fat usually. But we can make them feel bad about themselves so that they start shopping for this crap that no one needs. So it's honestly in an empathetic mood today. Not men's fault. It's not young men's fault. And for people who work with young men, how could we be prepared for what was going to happen so quickly? No one's a mind reader. It was sort of all happening. And if one's struggling to get through the day, aren't they, I think then, I think the thing now, because it's a couple of generations that have now grown up with the Internet, we're the last ones. And we sound like we're 150 years old going, we're the last ones. We remember what it was like, I got an email address when I was 17. Yes, I know, we sound like dinosaurs.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yeah, but, but it's true. Like if you're a 2 year old with an iPad.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Yeah.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Your brain is forming in a different way and I wonder if some of that is permanent because what you bake in.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Yes, I think they're probably. Well, there certainly is things like if you don't hear sounds in language, you get neural pruning at that age. So definitely if you don't use your brain in certain ways, there are permanent effects. So actually you're absolutely right. If you're thinking the effect of screens on young children. Yeah, that does seem to be. But there's also an argument that they would also use screens for the entirety of their lives. Not saying this because my 2 year old has got an iPad right now, but.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Sorry, hold on. You are Prime Minister in your house.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Yes, I am Prime Minister in my house. And I also need to get the dinner on.

[Deborah Frances-White]

I see, I see, I see.

[Sarah Pascoe]

I think there's so many things to worry about and you know, especially because we've been to Australia and long plane rides and things like that. There are times where if I could have another husband and it was an iPad, here's my husband, here's the human. This one is the. Actually it's not even an iPad because they broke the iPad. It's an Amazon Fire.

[Deborah Frances-White]

That's a quarter of the price. That's the price.

[Sarah Pascoe]

But it still plays YouTube videos that's

[Deborah Frances-White]

the poor relation of the iPad one.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Yeah.

[Deborah Frances-White]

It's a wonderful life being a parent.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Yeah. It's a lot worse than not having children. Even in my voice, in the clips, I can hear how happy I was and liked and well rested. There's like a sort of a breathiness to it, like, oh, I'm here, I'm

[Deborah Frances-White]

pleased to be here.

[Sarah Pascoe]

I don't have that voice anymore. I have this one.

[Deborah Frances-White]

But you have such moments of joy and love that you wouldn't have had otherwise.

[Sarah Pascoe]

That's not. No, I wouldn't actually. God. It isn't actually something I would say.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Really.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Yeah.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Is it not?

[Sarah Pascoe]

No.

[Deborah Frances-White]

I feel like it's all part of the kind of bigger feminist picture about how much women do. You've got incredible stand up on that.

[Sarah Pascoe]

I don't know if it's incredible. Someone told me that I ruined their International Women's Day. What? I know. And I didn't know we were supposed to be enjoying International Women's Day. I didn't know it was like.

[Deborah Frances-White]

No International Women's Day normally is. Normally getting together for breakfast and talking about how hard it is to be a woman.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Yeah. It's quite horror, isn't it? It's just reminding you of the worldwide. How much work this week we get

[Deborah Frances-White]

back together and say, is there still inequality? Yes, there is. Did it up or down from last year? Disappointing. I know.

[Sarah Pascoe]

It's not like Notting Hill Carnival anyway. So. Having children has made me a much worse feminist. I'm much less engaged, I have less time for things. I have much more coping with the thing in hand and exactly what I knew would happen. If you don't have children, you have more energy socially to be a brilliant member of society, in my opinion. Please don't write to me telling me you're a mum of seven who is campaigning. Congratulations.

[Deborah Frances-White]

I won't reply.

[Sarah Pascoe]

I don't have time. And I'm not saying this to minimize what women do when they are also parents of any variety. I just personally knew this was my sort of toss up. And also not having children Till I was 40, this was my toss up. I knew I can be better without having children, more actively to people I'm not related to. And then once it's the people who are related, they do get. Nature knows what it's doing, they get all of you.

[Deborah Frances-White]

But I would argue, Sarah, that you are raising two boys.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Yes.

[Deborah Frances-White]

So you are raising two men who are going to be great men in society.

[Sarah Pascoe]

I would love them to be mediocre men. I would love them not to be that confident. My fantasy is they will just enjoy their lives and take pleasure in lots of things and not to be hugely ambitious because they don't have a sort of hole to fill. I would really love them to be bands. They're the kind of people like, yeah, I might get a promotion, but we

[Deborah Frances-White]

like where we live.

[Sarah Pascoe]

The hours would be longer. I'd be like, God, I raised some good kids.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yeah.

[Sarah Pascoe]

They don't want to be King.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yes. That's a good point, actually. If they don't want to be Elon Musk, well done, you. What a feminist upbringing.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Yeah.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Can I ask you if you remember your first time a feminist, but because you came onto the show and you co hosted.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Was it the Spice Girls one? I hope it is, because that was. I never uttered that one.

[Deborah Frances-White]

I often use that as an archetype of, like, the best and most edgy. I'm a feminist, but that made me laugh the most. Ned, can you play the one?

[Sarah Pascoe]

I'm a feminist, but while I spend around 5% of my day thinking about gender equality, I spend about 71% of my day practicing how I would dance if Idris Elba was watching. That's still pretty good.

[Deborah Frances-White]

That is good, isn't it?

[Sarah Pascoe]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Again, before children, 71% of your day was practice dancing?

[Sarah Pascoe]

Yeah. That's the kind of time, the gorgeous kind of time. And also, when I say time, I don't mean it's headspace. Yeah, that's what you can think of. Idris Elba. I found out that Idris Elba sometimes DJed in East London. Sometimes I go to East London. Maybe I'm just walking past. Who's that behind the decks?

[Deborah Frances-White]

It's Idris.

[Sarah Pascoe]

How will I catch his eye?

[Deborah Frances-White]

How would you die?

[Sarah Pascoe]

This is all this sort of delusion of grandeur, which has always been my fuel. So that's. That's serious. That's not me thinking, what's a funny joke for the guilty feminist? It's like, this is a shameful secret,

[Deborah Frances-White]

but that's why your feminist butts are so good. Do you remember your Spice Girls one that I found?

[Sarah Pascoe]

No. I remember it was something to do with Jerry, I think.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Oh, no. I don't know.

[Sarah Pascoe]

It was a Killing all spot. I don't remember what it was, but I remember because of the format. And I remember listening to a Holly Walsh episode before I did it. I had been thinking about them for a while before I got booked.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Okay. What I will say is I did get some complaints about it.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Sure.

[Deborah Frances-White]

But sure, it probably made me laugh more than any other. I'm a feminist. But ever great it was, I'm a feminist, but this is Sarah Pascoe's words, not mine. I'm a feminist, but I would sell the Spice Kills to Boko Haram.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Fuck.

[Deborah Frances-White]

To get on Strictly Come Dancing.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Wow. Wow.

[Deborah Frances-White]

You can see why the complaints came in.

[Sarah Pascoe]

But it is sort of. And this is a thing about comedy in general, which is a bigger and different conversation. Sometimes you really are, you know, it was a joke format, of course. And so you're always saying a joke. And for a joke to work, sometimes you really do. And if you take the words literally, it is horror. It's horror, what you're saying.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yes.

[Sarah Pascoe]

And it would ruin your International Women's Day if someone you thought spoke for you. You agreed with them on lots of things. You liked them and they saw themselves and suddenly they're like, why are you being flippant about the most? Boko Haram is one of those things that even the words, it makes you visualize reality of what happened.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yes.

[Sarah Pascoe]

And then unfortunately, joke formats do sometimes do that or need that.

[Deborah Frances-White]

But I got to the point where I was doing some stand up at the Guilty Feminist on stage, and I was caveating every phrase, of course. And it killed. I just. It killed it because often it's economy and you're. And. And in that case, obviously hyper. Obviously, you would not do that. Not just hyperbole. It's just like ridiculously outrageous. But it's something you're. What you're saying is, I want to be on Strictly so much.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Yes, you're saying a wonderful thing, the worst thing ever for something so selfish. And so you think, essentially, you also think it's a joke. I am the victim of. Yes, but it is. Comedy involves such flippancy sometimes a lot of the time about things that are truly horrendous. And I think. And I love how much people empathize. And the fact is, if you're an empathetic person, you go, why would you joke about fucking Boko Haram? Like, why would you joke about that? And then. And I understand that response. I've had that response. I've had that response. And unfortunately, you do get. When you work in comedy for as long as we have, you also go, it's jokes. And so you think the whole thing is. It's a cheekiness, of course, the economy, caveats ruin the rhythm. And it's. The whole point is the arena we're in is you understand the cheekiness and the thingy. And even if you're shocked, it's shocked in a way where you then laugh with the relief of, I know you're joking, but I can't believe you said that. Yeah. And so the aim, ultimately, is trying to bring pleasure. And so it's a horrible feeling when you don't. And then you end up in Caveat City and then you end up going, should I have even done comedy? But should I be just a comedian who's just like, I'm just a comedian.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yeah. I'm not trying to say anything.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Yeah.

[Deborah Frances-White]

I might be interested enough in that. I just feel like to get a bra on and get out, leave the house, get your shoes on. I've got to have something to say.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Yes.

[Deborah Frances-White]

And I also really respect and admire comedians for whom it's worth getting their shoes on and leaving the house to build an invisible, imaginative world. And I love that, like, you know. You know, some of James Acaster's most classic shows, what he's been doing is so inventive and imaginative. It's just he builds a world.

[Sarah Pascoe]

That's why I would say James is a great example, because someone might say that, you know, James Acaster, surreal. But his stuff about Ricky Gervais is much more powerful than anyone else who believes in trans rights. Trying to take down Ricky Gervais. It's so funny. And it's from a comic who is. And I hope this isn't controversial, better than Ricky Gervais. He had a routine years and years ago about people who were getting confused about using they as a pronoun. And it was at the time, it was so early. I've always felt that he's so evolved. Oh, he is. He'll have a bit about pret avocados and then he'll go into something and go, this is highly politicized with a small P. And no one's noticed because it's so funny. So you're absolutely right. This is why we're all so passionate about comedy. People leave the house to go to it as an entertainment form and don't realize that also has beliefs.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Oh, yeah.

[Sarah Pascoe]

And. And is trying to make the world better. God, I'm going to burst into tears, Deb. You've made me feel much better about my joke.

[Deborah Frances-White]

But it's true. It's true. So. And someone like James is such a great example because sometimes his whole show will be a flight of fancy. But then when he does get political or he talks about mental health or there's a twist at the end where he's making some kind of cultural commentary. He shares in an imaginative, inventive flight of fancy, a piece of politics with you that is so relevant. And as you say, a lot of people will be more receptive to it than they will being told awfully.

[Sarah Pascoe]

He did a show about therapy, going to therapy. And for lots of his audience, especially male audience, they are hearing a man be vulnerable, be vulnerable and talking about therapy, normalizing, talk about therapy, that's so much more powerful than an essay or a really good article from someone in a broadsheet newspaper, hearing someone that people relate to and would like to go for a drink with, normalise those kind of things. So I think the raft of male comedians that we came up with, I'm so proud of them.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Oh, I think it's a golden age of comedy.

[Sarah Pascoe]

It's a golden age.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yeah, it really, really is. Like if you look what was happening in the noughties compared to now, people are doing incredibly well crafted one hour shows that are personal, that are political, that are fanciful, but they are, you know, the competition. And I don't mean that sharp elbow competition because people are actually very supportive of each other. They go to see each other's shows. It's a really lovely era for comedy, I think.

[Sarah Pascoe]

And when it's interesting with the guilty feminists in this decade, because also what happens around 10 years ago is feminism became a really joked about thing in Edinburgh. I mean, Bridget Christie won and Bridget Christie has been doing feminist comedy. But I don't want to say it's just feminist. I mean, it's funny, funny, funny comedy. And she's played in lots of ways, but she's been branded very much as a feminine feminist comedian. But there were so many. And then it became. And we were all thinking about feminism so much and deconstructing it and having very strong opinions and a variety of them. Suddenly it became that there was this overlap between a comedy audience and an audience who were also learning about feminism, wanting to push feminism further. And there were a lot more women talking.

[Deborah Frances-White]

The range of different interesting voices and the methods they're using and the, the shows they're putting together, there is something really, really special about this generation of comedians.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Hardest thing is to be a 21 year old white man who wants to talk about wanking into a sock. It's gonna be. You're gonna do very, very good now to break through.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yes. Because people feel they've seen that and that's because they have.

[Sarah Pascoe]

It's.

[Deborah Frances-White]

This episode is brought to you by Prime Obsession is in session. And this summer Prime Originals have everything you want. Steamy romances, irresistible love stories, and the book to screen favorites you've already read

[Sarah Pascoe]

twice off campus Elle every year.

[Deborah Frances-White]

After the Love Hypothesis, Sterling point and more slow burns, second chances, chemistry you can feel through the screen. Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime. You're, I think, quite unique in as much as you are very intellectual with your comedy. And your first book was Animal, the Autobiography of a Female Body. And that was actually only a couple of months after the 10 years. Wow.

[Sarah Pascoe]

I know.

[Deborah Frances-White]

How did that change your career? How's that changed the last 10 years for you?

[Sarah Pascoe]

Probably not hugely, but the big changes are when I realised I wanted to write books as well as stand up comedy. It meant the stand up comedy on stage could be lighter. There were sometimes things I would want to talk about and I think maybe this isn't the stand up, maybe this is more written a book or an article. Because to go back to that flippancy that we've already discussed, sometimes subjects are too serious or too interesting and you don't want to have to punchline it. Sometimes there's stuff you just want to say. And that's what Animal gave me, is an idea of, okay, here are some serious things that I'm grappling with to have a bit longer to talk about them. And you've been through this yourself. It is an amazing communion when someone spent time with your book and then comes to a signing or a show and it just feels like for someone to give you that amount of their time and their attention, it's great when someone sees you at a gig or they come to one of your shows and they've spent an evening with you essentially. But to spend days with you or take you in the bath with them or on the bus, I just think how incredible to have a book, even if only six people read it. What a privilege.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yes.

[Sarah Pascoe]

To get to write one in the first place, to get someone publishing it and then for anyone to actually finish it. And now because it's 10 years, sometimes I get, and this obviously is few and far between, but a book signing at a show, someone will say, oh, I reread it recently, I think. Imagine that.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Wow.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Imagine that.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Reread it.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Yeah. They read it and then they thought, oh, I'm going to go and see, I'll read a book again.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Wow. Yeah, yeah, I know what you mean about that. Yes. That someone will say, I read this in your book. And I thought this. And it's just such an incredible way of having a dialogue with someone, but it is a massive privilege. Well, sometimes people say with the podcast, they say, I fall asleep listening to the ultra feminist. And I yeah, now that doesn't sound like a compliment. It sounds like.

[Sarah Pascoe]

But we've all done it to other podcasts and it means you are an intimate part of my life.

[Deborah Frances-White]

You're in someone's ears as they fall asleep.

[Sarah Pascoe]

They like your voice. You make them feel relaxed. What you want for a falling asleep podcast is it's interesting enough that I don't, I'm not bored, I think I'm listening. And then I gently go to sleep. And it's not toxic where I go, why did I put that in my brain before going to bed?

[Deborah Frances-White]

Somebody said to me today, actually a friend of mine said I was listening to a podcast to fall asleep. And the guilt of feminist was in my queue. So every time I woke up in the night, you were talking to me and there was like I had about four episodes all just queued up. And she said, I feel like you've been in my bedroom all night. Because I just, every time I rolled over, I was like, you were going,

[Sarah Pascoe]

I do think that's a flirty message. Yeah, I think that's quite an extreme.

[Deborah Frances-White]

I did say, well, how hot to be in bed with you all night. And she said, it wasn't. I was wearing my mouth guard. So it was more of a, it was more of an emotional intimacy, I think, than an invitation. Something I realized looking into these episodes is the theme of sex work and your own complex feelings towards it came up a few times. You then went on to make a podcast series and write a book on this subject, Sex, Power and Money. And I think I interviewed you about that at the southbank Centre, sat in Michelle Obama's chair.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Do you remember?

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yes, I'd forgotten about that. They said Michelle Obama sat in that chair and the interviewer sat in that chair. And so we both switched chairs because we wanted to make sure we were in the Michelle Obama chair. Sometimes people say to me that the episodes they do on the Guilty Feminist, they kind of write material for it or they, they riff their thoughts in conversation and then they use some of those ideas in their book or in their stand up show.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Yeah.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Which way around does that go for you when you've been on the Guilty Feminist? Do you, do you riff ideas that you then might use in your show or do you more likely have already ideas that you're going to work on for a show or a book and then Maybe chat them out on the podcast.

[Sarah Pascoe]

I think it can be a mixture. I think it's easier to say yes to a podcast if you think, oh, I'm already thinking about that area and then what happens? This is, again, I think we're so lucky, and you're so lucky, and we're so lucky that you've had us on here. Because what you wouldn't get if you were working up an idea for a show is an hour, an hour and a half to talk really around it and then see where the audience were engaged and interested and then think, oh, that's the subject. That's the angle. We got there together. It was a communal thing in the room. Sometimes with stand up, you have to take such a leap to say it out loud and you've already formed it as material before you find out no one else is interested in this but you. If you got given 90 minutes to just sort of have a conversation around it, and then you'd go home with lots swirling around, and that would be so useful to you in terms of writing a bit that might end up only being three minutes, but you've saved yourself so much work in terms of. That's the aspect of that big topic that's interesting to you and the audience.

[Deborah Frances-White]

And you talked to me when I. I once read a book where I interviewed a lot of stand up comedians about stand up comedy, called off the Mic with brilliant Marcia Sandor. And you said something that I often quote, which is, if you're doing new material, you may think the punchline is here, but nobody laughs, so you've got to keep talking until you come to the punctuation of the laugh. And I always use that as such a good shorthand, the punctuation of the laugh. And that's so true. And it was the one thing that I. Of all the comedians we interviewed, because we were looking for principles that a lot of people use and then aberrations. But the one thing everyone had in common, because Tom and I wrote a book about improvisation called the Improv Handbook. But we understood what our shared principles were there and what we agreed with and what we didn't. Because improvisation is a collaborative. But stand up, everyone does it differently. And how you do it is how you do it. But the only thing all standups agreed on was that they wrote on stage. Because whatever you prepare, when you go out onto stage, just the audience, and it doesn't matter how famous you are, it doesn't matter who. The audience may not agree that that's the punchline.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Which is the thing. And I think where I do think stand up is like improv. It is a collaboration. It's just. It's whether the comic wants to give the audience the credit for shaping it.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yeah.

[Sarah Pascoe]

It's where people who've got lovely audiences tend to have much lovelier stand up. Harsher comics tend to have a much harsher audience. And the audiences get the shows that they deserve. I mean, all of the audiences that a comic tries their material to, they are the people who decide what's in the show. It is a co writing experience.

[Deborah Frances-White]

It's very true.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Yeah. But very hard for the ego driven comic to give credit.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yes, that's very true.

[Sarah Pascoe]

It's democratic and you get what you vote for. So the comedy that you go to see is the comedy you get and vice versa.

[Deborah Frances-White]

It's true. It is an agreement between you and to just call back. Something we were talking about before in terms of jokes that are sometimes hyperbolic, but, you know, they. They're funny because there's a certain sort of. I can't believe you said that. I used to have a lot more people complaining about, like, if a comedian would come on and do something that was edgier. And what I would do is I would generally just write back and say, I completely understand why you felt that this set wasn't, you know, what you objected to in the set and in the room. Generally the audience will accept people are riffing and people are trying things out.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Yeah.

[Deborah Frances-White]

But once you publish it, once you put it online, that has a different context.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Yeah. So this is what the really difficult thing about podcasting and now clips online. The place where the person is listening to your joke is not in a venue with a social contract. We are here to laugh. We understood the energy of the room is, I know you're good and I know you didn't mean anything bad. And yes, you're talking about a very serious thing. But we also wanted to laugh tonight. They're on the bus, they're about to fall asleep, they're in the bath, they've got five minutes before dinner, has to be ready. And then they hear you say something. They're like, what? Yeah. It's like, I've come into your house and said the worst thing you've heard for weeks.

[Deborah Frances-White]

I wrote a whole chapter about this in the six Conversations we're Scared to have book because I wrote a chapter called Freedom of Speech in Comedy in a conversation I can edit. Because of course, everyone understands you need to edit a podcast. But if someone's Come along and delivered their stand up set. That doesn't feel right to me to edit that because it feels rude to edit someone else's pre prepared art. So all I can do is either stop asking standups to do stand up, which I think makes the podcast weaker because it's not funny anymore, which draws a lot of people in.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Always a comedy podcast.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Right from the very beginning was always a comedy podcast.

[Sarah Pascoe]

So like you changed, but yeah, and added an element.

[Deborah Frances-White]

So. And because what I can't do is ask comedians to submit their stand up ahead of time in a written form because no one would do it, everyone would be insulted. And I would feel like McCarthy censoring people's staff. So I can't censor it. So I have to just trust that people will come along because they're trying to write something.

[Sarah Pascoe]

And also, how could you censor it in a way where you wouldn't upset somebody, you would just keep failing at it. So you become more and more McCarthyist as you were like, okay, here's my very, very small. Because every week I think I've seen it from every single angle and there's another one.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yes. Welcome to the Guilty Feminist with Kim Jong Un. Please submit your stand up ahead of time. Red pen, red pen, red pen, red penny. There is literally no way around it except inviting people on that you trust or you've had recommended to you and letting them do what they do and putting it out there and running up the flagpole and seeing if anyone salutes. I think I've only censored someone stand up once because I didn't know them and it was absolutely so out there that I just went, oh, this does not reflect the values in any way.

[Sarah Pascoe]

I mean, actually that's good. If it crosses the line to the point where you go, it's not worth not upsetting a comic. They will just have to understand, I've existed long enough now. I know my audience well enough. I'm not doing you a favor to put this out in public if this is how my audience find out about you, for instance, because it was a two way street. It was a launch pad for so many people's careers. It was part of them finding bigger audiences in Edinburgh on tours, that kind of thing. You had hundreds of thousands of listeners right at the beginning of podcasts, it feels like to me. And people realizing that podcast audiences could translate to ticket sales. So you also wanted people, your audience, to find comics they loved.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yes.

[Sarah Pascoe]

And they're not going to do that if you've put in Something which perhaps isn't representative of the comic.

[Deborah Frances-White]

And it's very. That's very satisfying for me as well, when people do find people. I went to the Aisling Bee show at the Hammersmith Poly the other night and I was on the tube and there were two young women kind of smiling and nodding at me and I sort of looked at them and they said, hi, we just want to say hi, and we love the podcast. I said, oh, that's so nice. And I said, I'm going to see Aisling Bee. And they said, so are we. And so we all went together and they said, we found Aisling Be through the Guilty Feminist and Alison Spittle.

[Sarah Pascoe]

That was the first one I co hosted that Aisling was the guest. It was about fast fashion.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Oh, yes, yes, yes. That's what that. I'm a feminist, but was from.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Yes, from that very one. Isn't that lovely? They found her through you and then they saw you on the train. Yes.

[Deborah Frances-White]

It's such a lovely thing and all. If I go to, like, if I go to your show or if I go to, you know, any of the comedians that do the Guilty Feminist, always, people will come up to me in the audience and say, oh, we love the show, or whatever. And then you think, oh, yes, of course there's this Venn diagram crossover, which is really nice. Whereas if I go to another comedian show who doesn't do the Guilty Feminist, that won't necessarily happen. And that. But that makes it feel like a community.

[Sarah Pascoe]

It's really. It's really fantastic. And also, I think it underlines the point and that you were right, you were booking comics to be a comedy podcast where comics come and did their comedy. It wasn't comedy adjacent. And then they also do stand up. You're also giving people an opportunity. It's really hard to get people to come see your stand up if they've seen this. I hosted Sewing be, for instance.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yes.

[Sarah Pascoe]

And if they watch you hosting a sewing show, they don't know that they like your comedy. If they'd let me do five minutes stand up in the middle of every episode of Sewing Be, they might have come to a gig. Do you see? Yes. So the stand up bit is important and sometimes it was written specifically for the podcast. So people weren't using up their material so much as they were showing everyone. This is the kind of. This is my voice, this is the

[Deborah Frances-White]

kind of thing I do, this is

[Sarah Pascoe]

my angle on stuff.

[Deborah Frances-White]

And increasingly I say people show should just do the stand up they want to do because I Was always very worried about it being on theme. And, like, could you in some way shape or form reference the theme, even if you're kind of slightly wedged it in? And I've realized over the years, nobody cares. Do you have any favorite guilty feminist memories?

[Sarah Pascoe]

So. Of course I've got lots of lovely memories. I can't think of a bad one.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Oh, yeah, that's nice.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Yeah, it's really nice.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yeah, there were some lovely ones. You did the Palladium, didn't you?

[Sarah Pascoe]

I must have done. I think I had blue shoes on. So I think that maybe that was the first time I was ever at the Palladium. It's got that big mirror backstage.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yes. I was looking to that mirror. Yeah. Whenever I do the Palladium or I do someone else's gig or I go backstage after someone else's gig, I think Judy Garland looked in this mirror, you know, like. Like, you think about all the people who played the Palladium who've looked in the same mirror.

[Sarah Pascoe]

I think, take that. Go. Take that. I've looked in the pillow. Take that.

[Deborah Frances-White]

I've looked at it.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Mark Owens looked in the picture.

[Deborah Frances-White]

I've used the same loo as Robbie Williams.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Deborah Frances-White]

So, you know, we sat in the Michelle Obama chair.

[Sarah Pascoe]

I know. Our bottoms. What a life.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Can I ask you how you feel about the last 10 years in feminism?

[Sarah Pascoe]

Obviously, I've been thinking about this in preparation for speaking to you, and I. I would have predicted. If you'd asked me 10 years ago, I would have predicted that by now. I would have been really hopeful.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Right.

[Sarah Pascoe]

And I do think that you can create a narrative where positive things have happened.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yes.

[Sarah Pascoe]

But I also think that it is really difficult not to be disheartened and think it's too hard. What the whole. So Giselle Pellico, which is the thing I think of when you say the last 10 years. This I think of the most. If it was fictional, no one would believe it was true. As in, no one believe it was representative of men.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yes.

[Sarah Pascoe]

And it is men. And that doesn't mean it lives in every man. I don't know what it's like to be a man. I don't know what it's like to be a man. When a crime like that is exposed and we're having this conversation, but the amount of men, the amount of normal men living normal lives as loving partners and brilliant parents and brilliant at their jobs, for me, feels like we should stop everything else and smash the world open. Like, this is what we've Been trying to say yes. In the commonality between Gisele Pellico and

[Deborah Frances-White]

Epstein, you just go, oh, that's too many men.

[Sarah Pascoe]

The Epstein thing, because of the wealth of it and the power elements. You could almost pretend that was a strata of society. This is what happens to people if they're at this hyperbolic level of freedom and they think they can get away with things.

[Deborah Frances-White]

The ordinary power leads to power abuse. Etc.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Yeah. So you could almost say extraordinary lives could lead to this extraordinary criminality. I would understand that as a narrative. Not understand it in an accepting way, but it would make the world an easier place to live in. If it's like we need to deal with the super wealthy, we need to deal with the men in powerful positions. So that. So when you take it down to ordinary, the most ordinary men, the horror.

[Deborah Frances-White]

And as in Giselle Pellico.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Yes, Giselle Pellico. And the thing that women have been trying to say for such a long time. How do we deal with this? How do we deal with the fact that we have to deal with a world inhabited 50% of our communities? And we know that's there and we keep telling you it's there and we keep. We're screaming and we're scared and it affects so many elements of our lives and then we're having to chill out and be reasonable and keep a lid on it for so much of our life. To go to work, to be a teacher.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yes.

[Sarah Pascoe]

To be a parent. And so it doesn't feel. I don't want to punch the air, but I do feel like maybe the fact that those two examples are seismic and out in the open and now part of the discussion will if someone was writing a historical paper in 20 years time, say, actually those things being so widely acknowledged. Not one person's opinion. Yes. That one victim had an extreme experience. Maybe the banality will. It doesn't feel like we're in a revolution, but maybe there's slower changes that happen just because young people grow up knowing about things. It did. The openness of something. Yeah. Exposing it.

[Deborah Frances-White]

I did. Did you read the book?

[Sarah Pascoe]

I've got the book, but I haven't read it.

[Deborah Frances-White]

I read the book pretty much the first night I got it. I had to write a little review of it. So I stayed up all night reading it.

[Sarah Pascoe]

And that's what I'm scared of.

[Deborah Frances-White]

That you will stay up all night

[Sarah Pascoe]

reading it or that then you've got all of it in your brain.

[Deborah Frances-White]

It was very beautifully written.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Yeah.

[Deborah Frances-White]

But there was some, you know, there's the whole thing about it is I've always been that feminist that has gone, most men would never hurt anybody. And most men, et cetera, et cetera. And it's the minority of very violent men or men that really harbor deep misogyny. They're the ones that need to be told, not all men, by the good guys, the decent guys, the ordinary guys need to go, it's not all men. Because they're the ones that think it is all men. And that's what they know, you know. And I said this at a standup show that I did and there were some people afterwards that stayed and said, we work with the government in trying to deal with men like this. And it's true. The big thing is that they assume all men hurt women.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Yeah.

[Deborah Frances-White]

And if they don't, they're just not man enough to do it. But they all want to. And that's not true. So I was always like, we need to tell those men, not all men. They are the ones that need to know. And when the decent guys are like, ha ha in the locker room just to, you know, social oil or oh, it's just a bit of an out there joke or whatever, they need to say no. They need to say, no, no, this isn't okay. They need to talk to each other, they need to talk to their kids, they need to talk to so and so on. But the Giselle Pellico crime story did give me pause, I have to say. Of how many men in a small French town and the surrounds, not just how many men, but how many, so many more men might have done it then who didn't see the ad or were too saw the ad, wanted to, but were too frightened to go, like were going to go.

[Sarah Pascoe]

But then who did it and didn't think they'd raped anyone, that the people who assaulted Gisele Pellico, who was asleep and then went away and sort of knew they had done something wrong or and they thought it's okay, she must know about. Several of them had told themselves a story where if her husband was doing it, she must know so she was consenting. She was consistent. Exactly. They told themselves a version of it where they weren't the bad person. That's the part of humanity I find really scary. And that's the part where, I mean, maybe this goes back all the way to not wanting watch people kiss. I think male sexuality is really terrifying. It is the reason our as well as female sexuality. Female sexuality is also the reason. But our species is absolutely brilliant at breeding and that's why we're here. This is why we have absolutely destroyed this planet. We are incredible at being apes and our sexual drive is a really important part of that. But that animal drive, we are now trying to be civilized and not hurt each other. That's such a massive jump.

[Deborah Frances-White]

I want us to be evolved well beyond that. And I.

[Sarah Pascoe]

And sexuality is plastic, and I do believe it. But it also means you have to talk about sex, sexual arousal, all of those things throughout life. It has to be part of societal education. The way you talk about good manners at a table. And we know not to spit and blow our nose on the tablecloth or shit on the carpet. There are things we teach children that later on, as we're becoming. And I don't have the answers, like how you do that without screwing them up and making them never want to have sex ever again. Yes. Like, all my aunties and uncles kept talking to me about that.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yes.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Yeah. What arousal it was and pleasure and all of these things. But it feels like we are not. We're a stone's throw from the Victorians and now we've got hardcore pornography on everyone's phones. Of course we're in a mess. So in terms of that, to bring back to the question of 10 years, I think it would be a disservice to any woman or any feminist alive now to be like, I do think it's getting better, because I maybe don't. But I do think we know. I think we know more. We've got the stats, we've got the data on a lot more bad things.

[Deborah Frances-White]

I think women are much more aware now. Like, I'm a lot more aware than I was 10 years ago. Now that can lead to some unhappiness because I'm aware and I'm not sailing through life. I can see it, I can see it, I can see it, I can see it. But I think awareness is the first step.

[Sarah Pascoe]

That's true change in terms of being more intersectional, which obviously isn't an end of. We have. We've got a lot of work still to do. That's a massive improvement. I would have probably 10 years ago, not probably, definitely 10 years ago, said things that didn't include trans women properly, that didn't include women of different races who'd grown up in different cultures. I would have really meant well, but I would have denied other people's lived experience. So more awareness and more work in that area is very, very positive. But again, what's shitty is it is women doing that work in the majority. I mean, this is a women's space. Women trying to improve.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yes. Yeah. A lot of the time it is, yeah. What do you see for the next 10 years? Do you feel like you've got the

[Sarah Pascoe]

technology stuff has to be addressed properly legally? You know, Laura Bates has written brilliant books. Yes.

[Deborah Frances-White]

I love Laura Bates and she is a real treasure, Laura Bates. She is.

[Sarah Pascoe]

She's a treasure, but also she's a martyr and maybe that's the wrong word. What she has had. How difficult her. I wanted to say fucking. How difficult her fucking life is because of her strident way of fighting women like me. My cowardice in certain areas is because I couldn't deal with that. I couldn't deal with that level of fear.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Oh.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Because of the men she has enraged.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Oh, my goodness.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Telling the truth.

[Deborah Frances-White]

But she is the most kind hearted, softest individual in the world. She is so warm and soft to talk to and she comes under so much fire because she's written books about misogyny, exposing things and that. Did you read her latest one about.

[Sarah Pascoe]

So we had to on the book podcast. And again, it's a book where this actually happened to me a lot more. As a parent, I get so scared. It's like I have so little time. Something like reading, which is for my pleasure. It's my favorite thing. I so often steer and I shouldn't do. I should be confronting these things. This is the reality of the world. But I go, not today. Not today. I found the book. I didn't read the one about the online forums and stuff because I know it's there and I couldn't go out and do my job. I have to go out and think, hello, everyone. Aren't you nice? That's why I think the lightness in my voice in the podcast 10 years ago is the likeness of someone who didn't have as much of that in her brain.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yeah. Didn't know as much.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Yeah.

[Deborah Frances-White]

What do you think we can do as feminists and artists, comedians with. With platforms? What do you think we can do in the next couple of years? Two, three, four years?

[Sarah Pascoe]

I think the stuff that really, I think works is the leading with love. I think anger is really important and there's lots of things to be angry about. It's a very motivating emotion. But I think the more lovingly we can keep. Everyone is included in this. No one is left behind. This is for everyone. If we're not speaking for you yet, tell us why. Tell us what we need to know. The open ears of it especially if you're making work. We're making work about our experience now, what we want in the future, what we've experienced in the past. We here, living in this country, are so lucky. I know there's things that are really scary going on in the world at large, and there are. I'm not saying everything in this country's yay. But we are so lucky. Those of us often who have time for activism or making art are the luckiest of the lucky to have even the time or the headspace. We should also be enjoying our lives at the same time. And I think that's where the loving thing comes in. We're not like doctors where we have to compartmentalize. But I do think let's have some fun, some playfulness, some letting each other off the hook a little bit, maybe not telling each other off quite as much. Of course, we can all raise each other up and say, I think you'd be better at this. But I think it's those elements of continuing what we're doing and then hopefully more people will join and it becomes this commonplace. And what we've always wanted really, is that people, a generation of people, look back and go, oh, that's weird. So that we had to have a movement for equality. Yes.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Wow. Wouldn't that be great?

[Sarah Pascoe]

Yeah.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Well, on that note, I really look forward to leading with love with you for the next 10 years.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Thank you.

[Deborah Frances-White]

We hope you come back and do many more Guilty Feminists in the next decade.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Yeah, I hope so, too.

[Deborah Frances-White]

It's been amazing to have you.

[Sarah Pascoe]

You're so lovely. Thank you for having me.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Oh, it's been great. You have been listening to the Guilty Feminist with me, Deborah Frances White and my very special guest, Sarah Pascoe. The Guilty Feminist theme tune was composed by Mark Hodge. The producers for the Spontaneity Shop were Tom Szalinski and Ned Sedgwick. Thanks to Gina Dicio, Zainab Mohamed and all of you for listening more information about this and other episodes, visit guiltyfeminist.com. Your next chapter in healthcare starts at Carrington College's School of Nursing in Portland.

[Sarah Pascoe]

Join us for our open house on Tuesday, January 13th from 4 to 7pm

[Deborah Frances-White]

you'll tour our campus, see live demos, meet instructors and learn about our associate degree in nursing program that prepares you to become a registered nurse. Take the first step toward your nursing career. Save your spot now at Carrington Edu Events. For information on program outcomes, visit carrington. Edu Sci Fi.