483. The Epstein Files with The Nerve featuring Ria Lina, Carole Cadwalladr, Lucia Osborne-Crowley, Dan Whitlam and GeeJay - part one

Summary

The Guilty Feminist, Episode 483: "The Epstein Files" with The Nerve – Part One

Recorded live at Leicester Square Theatre, London – May 18, 2026

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Overview

This special crossover episode of The Guilty Feminist, hosted by Deborah Frances-White with guest co-host Ria Lina, features leading investigative journalists Carol Cadwalladr and Lucia Osborne-Crowley from The Nerve, a new all-female news team. The main theme centers on the Jeffrey Epstein files and the power structures enabling abuse, with a focus on Ghislaine Maxwell's trial, media complicity, far-right politics, and the role of feminist journalism. Despite the serious subject matter, the episode remains classic Guilty Feminist—witty, irreverent, and community-building.

Content warning: Discussions include sexual abuse cases and power abuse but avoid graphic details.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Feminist Comedy, Self-Awareness, and Hypocrisy

• "I'm a feminist, but..." openings highlight personal contradictions with humor:
  • Deborah mistaking a female stage manager for her husband:

    "Can you pass me that microphone, darling?... I honestly felt like some old pre-Me Too man." (07:51 – 08:27)

  • Ria on "marrying for money" and the hidden labor of women.
  • Satirical banter about "tradwives" (traditional wives) and society's nostalgia for old gender roles, with both hosts dissecting why successful online "tradwives" are as skilled at marketing as any influencer.
  • Teenage girls, Jacob Elordi crushes, and the honest foibles of modern feminism.

2. The Guilty Feminist’s Role in Current Feminism

• Deborah situates the podcast in the ongoing struggle against the far right ("The Empire Strikes Back" analogy), urging activism and community resistance:

  "There’s just feminism, feminism, feminism...chalk ice feminism. And at this point, the chalk ices are fueling the feminism, and therefore they are feminism." (14:16)

  • Encouragement toward "joyful resistance" and grassroots organizing, including collaborations with organizations like Stonewall and Amnesty International.

3. The Nerve: Feminist Journalism and Independence

• Carol Cadwalladr recounts the founding of The Nerve after being "pre-sacked" when the Observer was split from The Guardian ("depending on whether they were the new owners or not" (46:13)).
• On the name 'The Nerve':

  "If there’s something you’ve just got to have in this moment, it’s to have some nerve." (47:25)

  • The spirit: Investigative independence, willingness to "touch a nerve," and confronting power.

4. Being at the Center of the Epstein/Maxwell Trials

Lucia Osborne-Crowley’s Experience

• Lucia describes camping outside the courthouse nightly to ensure a reporter’s seat at the Ghislaine Maxwell trial:

  "It was first come, first serve...so literally all I did was arrive before everyone else." (50:11)

  • On the relentless practical realities:

    "It was snowing one night. It was hailing. One night, I didn’t go home at all. I just came out at 6pm from the courtroom and just stood out the front in line and waited there all night.” (51:00 – 53:31)

Systemic Failure and Power Structures

• Deborah:

  “...what shocks me so much is...they have acknowledged those two people were running a ring and were trafficking...but not one man in this ring they can’t find.” (54:38)

• Lucia on the deep rot:

  • Epstein reported to the FBI in 1995, first arrested 2007, but allowed to "pretend" to serve a sentence, then rearrested 2019 before dying in custody:

    “What I do know is that nothing about his death...was usual...We're just so far through the looking glass.” (56:55)

  • Discusses the plea deal and the “asset” comment:

    "Jim Acosta… said, ‘I was told that I had to be very lenient with him because he’s an asset.’" (58:44)

  • Possibility of government connections, Mossad involvement, and evidence destroyed or concealed—emphasizing the wall of power that protects men in these networks.

5. Comedy as Resistance: Stand-Up and Satirical Takes

• Ria’s stand-up skewers financial sector sexism and “gammons,” using humor to expose absurdities (37:11).
• The classic "not all men" rebuttal is explored, pointing out that inaction and silence are part of the problem.
• Notable riff:

  “Maybe women are committing as much crime but only 2 out of 10 ever get caught… There's a reason. Women tend to use more of their frontal lobes than men. Yeah.” (39:51)

6. Power, Politics, and the Far Right

• Deborah runs through the contemporary political absurdities in the UK, from the King trolling Trump to Wetherspoons “banning” Reform UK supporters and the reactions of Reform politicians (29:00 – 30:05).

  "If you're too right-wing to be in a Wetherspoons, it’s time to have a good hard look in the mirror." (30:05)

• Satirical mockery of the proliferation of new far-right party names—Restore, Refresh, Renege, Recant (16:40).

• Ongoing emphasis on voting, participation, and the community-building sausage sizzle of Australian elections.

7. Men’s Role in Feminism: Poetry and Male Allyship

• Featured performance by Dan Whitlam, poet and musician, with a piece addressing "Not All Men" culture and urging men to actively stand up for women rather than passively stand by:

  “Or maybe it’s all men until it’s no men. Until no men stay silent. The way you stayed silent when your friend called her a name and you just sat back and laughed.… Inaction is indifference, and indifference leads us to the statement of all men." (65:02)

  • Closing tribute to women:

    “Dear women of our lifetime, you women are our lifeline..." (66:45)

8. Audience Interaction & Feminist Solidarity

• Room for audience contributions:
  • Discussions around feminist/unfeminist jobs (19:09, 22:31).
  • Shout-outs to voting initiatives (womenvote.co.uk) and the importance of using one's democratic rights:

    "In Australia, we have to vote and I get so upset when people don’t use their vote." (19:09)

  • Banter around sausage sizzles as an election incentive.

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Memorable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• "This is our last piece of feminism for four days and it’s just lying in the sun with chalk ices. … Now we have to do feminism all the time..."
  – Deborah Frances-White (14:16)

• "There are limits to feminism and that's—I found them. You do not need to support Ballerina Farm because she's a woman."
  – Deborah Frances-White (12:21)

• "It was so cold… and the security guards wouldn't even let us sit down. Like, when we sat down, they would stand us up."
  – Lucia Osborne-Crowley (51:00)

• "Epstein was first reported to the FBI in 1995. Law enforcement did nothing about it. … He was rearrested in 2019… then he got out of that trial, obviously, because he died. And then they arrested—what an excuse."
  – Lucia Osborne-Crowley (55:34)

• “Jim Acosta… said, 'I was told that I had to be very lenient with him because he’s an asset.'”
  – Lucia Osborne-Crowley (58:44)

• “If you're too right wing to be in a Wetherspoons, it's time to have a good hard look in the mirror.”
  – Deborah Frances-White (30:05)

• "Or maybe it's all men until it’s no men. Until no men stay silent."
  – Dan Whitlam (65:02)

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Important Segments (with Timestamps)

• [07:51] – "I'm a feminist, but..." intros with Deborah and Ria
• [14:16] – Feminism as endless labor & The Empire Strikes Back analogy
• [19:09] – Audience discussion: feminist jobs and womenvote.co.uk
• [30:05] – Far Right News: Wetherspoons, Reform UK, and British politics satire
• [35:34] – Framing of The Guilty Feminist x The Nerve crossover
• [36:19] – Ria Lina’s stand-up: workplace gammon and gender crime stats
• [45:01] – Carol Cadwalladr and Lucia Osborne-Crowley on The Nerve and journalism
• [50:11] – Lucia’s experience at the Maxwell trial
• [54:38] – Epstein, systemic impunity, and male complicity
• [65:02] – Dan Whitlam’s spoken word piece on men’s responsibilities

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Tone and Atmosphere

• Open, irreverent, smartly satirical, but unflinching about confronting power and abuse.
• Community-driven: Celebrates feminist solidarity, invites audience participation, and affirms space for humor and vulnerability even in dark times.
• Respectful and compassionate toward survivors and those impacted by abuse.

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For Listeners Who Haven't Heard the Episode

This episode deftly combines insight, humor, and moral urgency—moving from the personal and comedic ("I'm a feminist, but...") through skewering of politics and media, to deep dives into the rotten systems underpinning abuse, all while platforms like The Nerve push feminist investigative journalism forward. Standout moments include Lucia’s frank recounting of the grueling logistics at the Maxwell trial, Carol’s sardonic energy about newsroom politics, and Dan Whitlam’s challenging poetic call to male accountability. The blend of wit, righteous anger, and solidarity make it compelling for anyone interested in activism, media, and the ongoing fight for equality.

End of Part One. (For Part Two, check your feed.)

Transcript

[Deborah Frances-White]

Hello, guilty feminists. I want to talk about something that

[Co-host (possibly a producer or announcer)]

half the population experiences and the other

[Deborah Frances-White]

half should probably understand better gynecological health. Because so many of us grew up with patchy information, some pretty weird myths and general feeling that we should probably

[Co-host (possibly a producer or announcer)]

just not talk about it.

[Deborah Frances-White]

That's why I'm delighted to tell you

[Co-host (possibly a producer or announcer)]

about Bloody Powerful the Taboo Busting Guide to Periods, Menopause and Everything in between by Dr. Brooke van der Molen, illustrated

[Deborah Frances-White]

by Hazel Mead and published by Cambridge University Press.

[Co-host (possibly a producer or announcer)]

This book is a warm, clear and

[Deborah Frances-White]

genuinely empowering guide to everything you probably

[Co-host (possibly a producer or announcer)]

didn't get taught in school, from understanding your periods to navigating menopause and all the confusing questions in between.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Dr. Brook van der Molen is a practicing gynaecology doctor. You might know her online as the OB GYN mum. And she answers so many of the

[Co-host (possibly a producer or announcer)]

questions we've all quite quietly googled at

[Deborah Frances-White]

2am it's also beautifully illustrated by Hazel

[Co-host (possibly a producer or announcer)]

Mead, which makes the whole thing feel

[Deborah Frances-White]

accessible rather than clinical. If you'd like to learn more or give it to someone who deserves better information about their body, visit cambridge.org bloodypowerful

[Co-host (possibly a producer or announcer)]

and you can get 20% off with the code bloodypowerful20 at checkout. Because knowledge about our bodies shouldn't be taboo, it should be bloody powerful.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Get the Ice cream Love Big Freezer, It's by the Peas.

[Co-host (possibly a producer or announcer)]

Some things are really best not to

[Deborah Frances-White]

put off, like defrosting the freezer or if you're a landlord sending a copy

[Co-host (possibly a producer or announcer)]

of the new government information sheet to your existing tenants.

[Deborah Frances-White]

You must do this by 31 May or risk a fine. Make sure you're up to date with the new laws.

[Co-host (possibly a producer or announcer)]

Find the information [e-mail] renting is changing.

[Deborah Frances-White]

So good, so good, so good.

[Riolina]

Everything you want for summer is at Nordstrom Rack stores now and up to 60% off. Stock up and save on the brands you love, like Vince, Sam, Edelman, Frame and Free people. Join the NordicLub to unlock exclusive discounts. Shop new arrivals first and more. Plus buy online and pick up at your favorite Rack store for free. Great brands, great prices. That's why you wreck.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Hello, guilty feminists.

[Co-host (possibly a producer or announcer)]

This is a very special episode. It is broken down into three parts. It's in association with the Nerve News. They're brilliant journalists who broke away from the Guardian, an all female operation. Really recommend you subscribe to them. We've got the very famous investigative journalist Carol Cadwalader and the incredible Lucia Osborne Crowley, who was one of the only journalists at at the Ghislaine Maxwell trial and has written a brilliant book about it. So we are going to be talking about Epstein, Ghislaine Maxwell, Giselle Pellico, so just a content warning. We have really tried not to be graphic or upsetting in any way. The first two were recorded live at Leicester Square Theatre and there's also me and Riolina doing comedy and some great musicians and even a performance poet. So you really will enjoy this episode. The third episode was because I didn't feel like we'd got enough time to talk to Lucia Osbourne Crowley about what it was like to be at the trial and I thought you would like more detail about how that went down. So that's just me and Lucia having a one on one conversation after the show. So if you're interested in more details on the trial and you think you might like to read her book, that is a special bonus for you. On the 21st of May I will be at Charleston, which is a beautiful old house where the Bloomsbury Group used to be, where Virginia Woolf used to go. Her sister Vanessa Bell lived there. A brilliant place. I'm interviewing Rose McGowan there. So if you can get to Lewes, it's not far outside London, you will really enjoy that live show. On 22 May, we are back at the Museum of Comedy doing a Road to Gilead show. It's Felicity Water me talking to Alice McCool who has done a deep dive investigative report on how the ADF who very instrumental in overturning Roe versus Wade come along to those. The tickets are around 13 quid.

[Deborah Frances-White]

On the 17th of June, I'll be

[Co-host (possibly a producer or announcer)]

doing a guilty feminist in conversation with Tracy Emin as part of Harry Styles's Meltdown Festival at the South Bank. That sounds too cool for me, but I'm gonna do it anyway. On 18 July, the guilty feminist will

[Deborah Frances-White]

be at the Ventnor Fringe on the Isle of Wight.

[Co-host (possibly a producer or announcer)]

Get tickets now and we'll be at the Edinburgh Fringe from the 20th to the 23rd of August. For tickets to any of these, go to guiltyfeminist.com and click on Live shows. Now, the Road to Gilead is specifically about the agenda of the far right. What we're doing is forming a joyful resistance and creating a better existence. We just don't want that to be shows. We want that to be open space events so you can come, have your say, collaborate with like minded people on creating real grassroots change that will shift the dial in your community. So we held a day with Amnesty International with the brilliant open space Method where anyone can call a space and people turn up, contribute to whatever it is you want to do. You don't have to have any ideas. You can just come and contribute to other people's open spaces. You can just sit and listen. You can flip from one to the other. It's a really, really brilliant method. The last one was super successful. It was completely oversubscribed and we had other events that tuned in by Zoom and then did their own thing around the country. So if you would like to come to the next one in London, this one we're doing in association with Stonewall. It will be on 20 June. The thrust will be LGBTQ issues, but you do not have to be LGBTQ to attend. And there are lots of intersection between reproductive rights and LGBTQ rights, for example. So you can come and you can contribute in any way you like at all. So if you would like to come to the London one, or you would like to join the Zoom event, where you come in remotely, wherever you are, or you would like to do a satellite event in your town and we can zoom together for parts of it, and then you can do your full own breakout day, then that would be wonderful too. Last time we had a breakout group in Basingstoke and another one in Scotland and even a few people from Berlin. So if you would like to satellite, we would really encourage you to hold one locally and then we will satellite in and then you do yours and then we satellite back in and we compare notes. At the end of the day, if you would just like to sign up for the London one, it's pound ten, including lunch for the whole day. And at the end of the day, there will be a live Guilty feminist Stonewall episode in the same room that you can stay for if you want to. If you cannot afford the ten pounds, we don't wish that to be a barrier for anyone, so just let us [e-mail] and we will figure it out. There's also the option to pay £20, and that means you will pay for someone else's space who can't pay. And that would of course, be very helpful and a wonderful community thing to do. For more details about this, go to guiltyfeminist.com on the homepage. And now on with the podcast.

[Deborah Frances-White]

I'm a feminist, but I was in the wings before, and I said to my husband who was there, who was also the producer of the show, could you pass me the microphone, darling? But I didn't realize that he was kind of behind me. And what I'd actually done is looked at Matilda, the brilliant stage manager, and I'd just gone, can you pass me that microphone, darling? And then I just went, if you don't mind, love, you're looking gorgeous tonight. I honestly felt like some old pre. Me too, man. Just in the wings going, come on, darling, give me a kiss.

[Riolina]

You're right, love. You're right. Give us a hug and I'll give you your money. That was how we got paid in comedy up until about a few years ago. I'm a feminist, but I'm at that point in my life where I'm ready to marry for money. I have worked hard, okay? I have worked hard. I'm a good person. I volunteer in my community. You know, I do so many things, and I'm just at a point where I'm going, can someone else please pay to microneedle my face once a month, please? It's for you, darling. It's for you. Can I have a pilates instructor come to my house? 20 twice a week? Again, this ass will be for you. It's hard. It's kind of there. I still live with my ex husband, who I partially fund.

[Deborah Frances-White]

So I get that. I get that. I have never wanted to marry for money, but I would. Fuck, I would love to divorce Jeff Bezos. When I heard he was being divorced, I went, how do I get to divorce him without marrying him, though? Do you know what I mean? Because it would be great. Because you could drag him through the courts. You could take him. I mean, his wife's having a field day. I don't like. She built that with him, by the way. That is half her money. She absolutely built that with him, Even if it would be half her money anyway because of marriage. But she has built that with him. But I do think she can't be that charitable if she's built that. I think she's that charitable because she's just really loving every day Doing a new headline of today. I'm spending the money like this. Oh, which of the poor will I give Jeff's money to? I honestly think she's enjoying it. Just watching him shrivel inside as he sees money being given to worthy causes. I'm a feminist, but I only realized when I got here tonight that I'd come dressed as a trad wife. Now, it was when someone said, you look. And I'll tell you what's happened is I've. This was clean,

[Riolina]

and I was still

[Deborah Frances-White]

writing my monologue, and so I just thought, what's clean, but I've got something wrong with one of my feet. And I've never been a trainers person in my whole life, so I would wear, like heels on stage or like some groovy flats, but I have to wear these trainers at the moment. And I thought, oh, that's fine. Like, Phoebe Waller Bridge does that. She wears, like a cute summer dress or something with some sneakers. And she always looks really great. But Phoebe Waller Bridge looks makes anything look cool. Like, I am wearing something that I now realize has lacy sleeves. It's right up to the neck for maximum modesty, and it's right down to my ankles. But I'm also wearing something on my feet that would be suitable to milk a cow in. And I've just read yesteryear because I had to interview Caro, who was. Who wrote it. Have you heard about yesteryear? We'll be putting the podcast out soon. I think, like midweek or something. It's about a trad wife. This is a genius idea. It's about a trad wife who is, you know, she's got all the social media team and nannies behind the scenes, and she's super, super rich, but. But she does all that, you know, I'm dressed in gingham, I'm having six children, I'm making Froot Loops from scratch. And she wakes up one morning in 1855 as a real trad wife. And she's like, what the fuck? And of course, there's the mystery for us is, has she traveled in time? And the mystery for her of, have I been kidnapped? Am I in a reality show? Have I, you know, what's happened? She doesn't know what's happened to her, but she's trying to escape from 18, from this terrible ranch. And she realizes what really being a tradwife is.

[Riolina]

I am so conflicted about tradwives. I just wrote a chapter in my book about tradwives as well, and I'm confused by it because trad wives are pushing a narrative that I think is horrendous. You know, saying, oh, just give up the vote. Let your husband decide for the household, all of that. And yet the most successful trad wives are some of the most successful women that we have. And I'm like, I want to support you as a woman, but at the same time, I don't like what you're saying. I don't.

[Deborah Frances-White]

You do not need to support them as women. Sorry. There are limits to feminism. And that's. I found them. You do not need to support Ballerina Farm because she's a woman. No, that's like saying you have to support Carolyn Levitt and you absolutely shouldn't and mustn't. Yes. That's brought on panto season. Have you got another one?

[Riolina]

Yes. I'm a feminist, but I think teenage girls are some of the most horrendous creatures on the face of the planet.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Any teenage girls in. You've won them over. I'm a feminist, but bless me, audience, for I have sinned. I went to see Wuthering Heights and I had several impure thoughts about Jacob elordi, who is 28 years old and was 27 years old at the time of shooting.

[Riolina]

Well, I'm gonna see your 27, Jacob Elordi, and I'm gonna raise you. I first discovered him in the kissing booth game. Kissing. You know the one. You know what I'm talking? Yeah, that one. And I went.

[Deborah Frances-White]

You went in a kissing booth with him, were you?

[Riolina]

I wish it was just a movie. I wish he was playing a high schooler and I was there going, oh, okay. He can only get older from now.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Wow. Live from the Leicester Square Theatre in London, the Spontaneity Shop presents the Guilty Feminist. With me, Deborah Frances White, guest co host, Riolina. And our very special guests, Carol Conwallada and Lucia Osborne Frowley. Talking about the Epstein files. Hello, hello, hello, hello. How are you? Here we are. It's Thursday night. That's right, it's Thursday night. It's almost the weekend. We're almost at a bank holiday weekend. So, dare I say it, this is our last piece of feminism for four days and it's just lying in the sun with chalk icers. I mean, I know that's not true. That would have been true a few years ago, but now we have to do feminism all the time because of the far right. There's no days off anymore. There's just feminism, feminism, feminism, feminism, Chalk ice feminism. And at this point, the chalk ices are fueling the feminism, and therefore they are feminism. That's right. Every chalk ice is just glucose for the soul so that we can go out there with signs that say things like, not again. We thought it had got a bit better. What the fuck happened? Remember 2018, where we were like, we're winning. That's right. But my theory, My theory is this is the Empire striking back. And they only do that. They only do that when the Jedis are winning. Do you know what I mean? Like, Star wars is just, we're in charge. We're in charge. We're in charge. We're in charge. Then the rebels come up and they go, what the fuck? And the rebels start winning. And then the Empire has to strike back. So we are now in the Empire Strike Back. We were in Star wars is. And someone needs to tell me this is Empire Strikes Back. The second one or the third one? It is the second one. Thank God. I just. As I was saying, I thought that Return of the Jedi, is that number two or three? It is, of course. So the Empire Strikes Back. Bad stuff. We are now verging on before May elections. The Return of the Jedi. Okay? Because we're not going to let reform take this country in local elections, in any elections, whoever you're woohooing for or getting out there for, whether I know some of you will be feeling now that there's a great hope in the Green Party. Excellent. I am feeling that. But you do not have to be feeling that. This is not a party political space. As long as you want the world to be kinder and fairer and you want this country not to be taken over by TAMU fascists, then 100% you are in the right place and you are amongst friends. So whether you're going for some kind of tactical voting, whether you're going green, whether you've got your party of choice that you love, that isn't reform. Although, I mean, I've said this at a couple of these, but I think it's worth saying again. I have. I'm a feminist, but I have been thinking about starting my own far right party. That's right. And my inspiration was when Restore started. Did you see restore? Restore because some people were thrown out of reform for being too racist. Imagine that. Imagine getting the letter going, oh, okay, so they've started Restore. And I've thought, what if I started refresh and then you started renege, and then you started recant, and then every far right voter would be in the booth going, I don't. Which one of these is mine? We split the vote like Marmite on toast. They win nothing. These are the kinds of strategies we need to be employing. We've been good for too long. We've been ethical and full of integrity for too long. We need to start getting strategic, by which I mean sneaky. Just give us a cheer if you listen to the guilty feminist. Give us a cheer if you don't know what you're at. Excellent. Okay. Notice how those cheers were a little less certain, a little less powerful, a little less feminist, if you will. Don't worry by the end of the evening, you will be converted.

[Co-host (possibly a producer or announcer)]

Lock the doors.

[Deborah Frances-White]

It's not a cult. It's important to say it's not a cult. That's absolutely key. Give us a cheer if you think you have a very feminist job or side hustle or, you know, do you do something voluntarily, but you think you've got a feminist job. Excellent. Just give us a cheer if you think you might have the most feminist job in the room. Oh, quite a lot of women have dropped out. Imagine if that were men, though. Oh, what's the most. The best women go?

[Lucia Osborne-Crowley]

Hmm.

[Deborah Frances-White]

I wouldn't say the best. I'd like to hear the metric for success first. I don't know. I don't know who's in there. Could be a female judge who's just landed a very important case and I would have to listen to that and say, no, I'm definitely coming in at a 7 out of 10. So who's got the most feminist job? There was a couple of hands here, there was a woo there. What's your feminist job? I created a website called womenvote.co.uk to

[Riolina]

try to get more of us out

[Deborah Frances-White]

there voting and getting our besties to vote. Because in the UK a lot of people don't vote. As an Australian, we have to vote and I get so upset when people don't use their vote. Very good, Very good. Now, what's your name? Sam. I'm also Australian, so I was raised that it was illegal not to vote. If you didn't vote, you got a fine. Voting was done on a Saturday because that was the day, you know, the larger percentage of the population would have off here. It's like a Thursday. People are quite busy on Thursday. They've got the school run, they've got office jobs, they're held back. I went up to knock on doors in Gorton and Denton. A lot of people like, oh, I've got to go to work. If I'm on the way back, I don't know, I've got quite a long shift. Why do we have it on a Thursday? It's because they don't want people to stay up late on a Saturday night counting the votes. Not as important as people actually fucking voting. I would be happy if they counted the votes on Monday morning. I don't mind that. What I do mind is people not voting. So I think this is excellent. We have to admit, though, Sam, if it wasn't illegal not to vote in Australia, almost nobody would vote. They would be if it was a nice day if the surf was up. If. Look, a lot of people live within looking distance of the surf. Be honest. Sausage sizzle. Sausage sizzle. Oh, the sausage sizzle. Yes. So if people looked out at the beach, when it's a lovely day at the beach, it's a lovely day at the beach, we could vote. But look at that water. And then they think, oh, but It'll cost me 50 bucks. I'll vote on the way. That's what it is. But the sausage sizzle is a very important part of Australian culture and we need to bring it here.

[Lucia Osborne-Crowley]

This is.

[Deborah Frances-White]

This would be good for your website. Tell them about the sausage sizzle. Oh, bless you. So, womenvote.co.uk, because we don't do sausage sizzles here and it's on a Thursday. In Australia, the voting takes place at public schools. So the mums and dads set up barbecues and they have sausages and tomato sauce and onions. And you're incentivized to go to your local school where you vote and. And get your sausage sizzle and support the school. So it's a win, win, win. Oh, there's a New Zealander here saying, new Zealand created that. Let's get ready to rumble. Who started the pavlova? Australia and New Zealand. New Zealand did actually invent a lot of things Australia takes credit for. But you can have Russell Crowe back. It's true. In Australia, they've incorporated a free barbecue. If you can think of anything more Australian than that, please do write in. I mean, also, I think there'll be. People write in and say, is this a vegan sausage sizzle? And for them we say, yes, always, Definitely. I'm sure there's places now you can get vegan sausages at the Sausage Sizzle Sizzle. I'm sure the sausage. It's hard to say. It's hard to say. I haven't had a drink. I absolutely swear. Does anyone think they've got an unfeminist job? Give us a cheer. Oh, normally there's lots of people more excited to tell who thinks they've got the most unfeminist job. Yes, you've got the most brilliant. What's yours?

[Carol Cadwalader]

Dj.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Dj? Why is that? Well, it depends what you're playing. Is it just like a lot of R Kelly or something? So if you're a feminist dj, I think it. We need more representation of women in DJing, so I don't think that's unfeminist. Are you playing unfeminist things? Is it mostly like blurred Lines. Sorry, House music. Well, I can't see anything wrong with that. As long as you're not really going for the most graphic, exploitative lyrics, are you? You're not allowed to. Why? Oh, cause you're on the radio. You're a radio dj. Tomorrow. Tomorrow. Oh, well, we'll listen in.

[Co-host (possibly a producer or announcer)]

Where are you?

[Deborah Frances-White]

Dalston Radio.

[Carol Cadwalader]

Tomorrow, Saturday, Brixton Radio.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Dalston Radio. Tomorrow, Saturday, Brixton Radio. I feel like this was just a commercial. I don't think anybody is. I don't think anybody's fooled that that's an unfeminist job. We want more women on the radio, but tune in. What's your name?

[Carol Cadwalader]

The consultant.

[Deborah Frances-White]

The consultant.

[Co-host (possibly a producer or announcer)]

Interesting.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Is that your DJ name? Okay, just checking, because I quite like the idea that your mother named you the. And your father's surname is consultant. Anyone got a genuinely unfeminous job, just give us a cheer. Yes, Genuinely unfeminous job. Shout it out. Prosecutor. Prosecutor now. Oh, don't turn. We've asked her. Took a while to get it out of her. Do you do any Trojan Horse feminism in your prosecuting?

[Lucia Osborne-Crowley]

No comment.

[Deborah Frances-White]

That's what I find. If you're listening at home. She said no comment. That's what I find. I find the people with the least feminist jobs often do the most feminism within them because they're in the role. Excellent. Okay, we gotta start the show. But first I've taken to doing essentially these Road to Gilead shows. So old school guilty feminist shows. And we still do those, basically, if you don't know what you're at, this is the Guilty Feminist. It's a podcast about feminism. But it's also funny. But we can change gears and we can go into sad or difficult or angry things and then change back gears out. So if you're new here, that's what it is. But the Road to Gilead is a project we're doing about the rise of the far right and particularly how far right Christian nationalism is coming in, funded and strategically placed from the United States of America and how that's going all around the world. And we also care very much about our siblings and in America and what we're seeing there. And so I've started doing what I'm now thinking of, I suppose, as Road to Gilead News. Since I saw you last, the King has gone to the usa. And was that from the New Zealander? Yeah, he's your king too. Sorry about that. Commonwealth still going strong. King has gone to the USA and effectively roasted the president, Donald Trump. The King compared Trump's egregious ballroom renovation with the time the British burned the White House down. Trump pretended to laugh, but no one thinks he understands a reference to 1812. If I had to look it up, he had to look it up. And he's too arrogant to look anything up then, the king said. Magna Carta is cited in at least 160 Supreme Court cases since 1789, not least as the foundation of the principle that executive power is subject to checks and balances, as a nudge, nudge, wink, wink to the dictatorial dickheadishness he's been witnessing from the MAGA administration. And that received an immediate standing ovation with cheering and woohooing from a bunch of cowards who sat down again and proceeded to let Trump do whatever the fuck he wants. Don't give it a standing ovation if you're just going to watch him do it, the BBC website reads. The official goodbye showed the different approaches of the President and the King. This is true. Donald Trump was happy to chat in front of the camera. The King seemed less enchanted. When the King was asked for a favorite moment from the trip by reporters, there was no clear reply, just a smile. He was not going to be drawn into any public exchanges. Trump, on the other hand, said, we need more people like that in our country. Great, really great people. We need more people like that in our country. British monarchs, he said on the occasion of the 250th anniversary of American independence. Independence. That's why they were there. Independence from what, you might ask. Independence from British monarchs. Presumably Trump's remark is the fulfillment of the prophecy in Lin Manuel Miranda's Hamilton song for King George iii. You'll be back. Wow. Why did we kick these guys out? They're great. Bring your thrones over here. No, don't bother, don't bother. I've got a bunch of pure gold ones I got off Temu in Reform UK News. This story dropped 2 hours ago in the Telegraph. This is fresh off the press. I dare any of you to have already read this and if you have, why are you subscribing to the Telegraph now? You should be subscribing to the Nerve News. The Nerve News, everybody. That's real news, okay? This is the genuine story and I'm going to read it to you. Wetherspoon pub manager has been accused of refusing to serve Reform UK supporters. In footage shared online, a manager at the Picture palace in Braintree, Essex, appears to turn away customers who support Nigel Farage's party. Several men ask if they are being refused service because of their political allegiance. The staff member replies, yes. They were not allowed to reply, yes. That's why a Wetherspoon spokesman said service had been stopped because a Reform bus was parked in the pub's loading bay. In the footage shot inside the pub, the man can be heard saying, so we can't have a drink then? No. The manager responds, shaking his head, yes, I'm deciding that today, not today. Yes, I'm deciding that today, not today. When another man clarifies that the Wetherspoons in Braintree is refusing to serve Reform supporters, the manager says, yes, Lord Young of Acton, thank God, he's wedded in. It's just who you want in this moment, isn't it? Lord Young of Acton, founder of the Free Speech Union, said pubs refusing to serve customers for political views was unlawful discrimination. This is a direct quote from Lord Young of Acton. Now every pub is a parliament. Where people with a broad range of political opinions should feel free to express themselves. I've not made this up. If the barman disagrees with any of his customers views, he should engage them in debate, not refuse to serve them. Robert Jenrick.

[Lucia Osborne-Crowley]

Ugh.

[Deborah Frances-White]

That is the appropriate. Robert Jenrick, Reform's treasury spokesman, who I was once on Question Time with, my God, what a smug, smackable face. I deserve a medal for holding myself back. Robert Jenrick, Reforms treasury spokesman, who was holding an event in the area, appeared to defend the barman. He told the Telegraph, I hope Wetherspoons don't deal with the young man too harshly. He seemed very upset, but he should be reassured that he has a great career ahead of him. With Reforms plans to cut VAT and beer duty for pubs across the country. Now this plan means, I believe pints will be 5p cheaper, thank God. Please steal breakfast from children in front of their very faces to allow a pub to be to serve a pint. 5. It's not worth talking about. You can either afford a pint or you can't. And we can't. Giving us five pence off the pint isn't going to fucking help. What year does he think this is? 5 pence. It's like he thinks that we. This is not pocket money. In 1952, Deborah Frances White commented on the guilty Feminist, if you're too right wing to be in a Wetherspoons, it's time to have a good hard look in the mirror. It's going to go out. And finally, prominent Reform backer Aaron Banks was accused of questioning the Welshness of a black Plied campaigner in an online post where he wrote welsh lady. So basically someone posted a black Welshman and he went, oh, is he really Welsh? Helen Jenner, who was appointed deputy leader of reform in Wales in April, refused five times in an interview to call on Aaron Banks to apologize until she was told the sixth time that her boss, Nigel Farage has said Aaron Banks should apologise. And then she said, I think that someone that's put something like that out, that's been taken in that way, should apologize, clarify what they mean. Later, when another Reform rep was asked whether Helen Jenner should apologize for not apologizing earlier, he said, I think apologizing is saying sorry. And sorry is a feeling one should have if one has engaged in some fuckery upper y. Oh, my God, my Uber's here. And that's this week's Far Right News. And now we're ready to start the show. Then please welcome my host for this evening, my co pilot. She is a Radio 4 favorite. She's a fabulous stand up comedian. Put your hands together and make woohooing noises for the wonderful Realina. Absolutely fine. Thank you so, so much for coming. Riolina, how are you?

[Riolina]

I'm good, Pleasure. Pleasure to be here. Although I do need to go away and cry for 20 minutes after your opening because some of that's too real.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yeah, I know. I mean, I feel really embarrassed that I got so much comedy out of just reading the Telegraph. Like, I was like, normally you'd make jokes and you'd break. I was like, I don't really have to do anything here. This is just all hysterical, hysterically funny. It was.

[Riolina]

I find the Telegraph very entertaining. I know you said as a joke, who's reading the Telegraph? But actually their headlines are superb. They will make me stop my day and go, what? Like, really anyone actually thinks this is a thing? I think it's highly entertaining.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Seriously, it can be on its own merit satire. But that was absolutely incredible that Wetherspoons that just were like, yeah, we're not serving reform. That's the decision I've made today. This is the Guilty Feminist, the podcast in which we explore our noble goals as 21st century feminists and the hypocrisies and insecurities which undermine them. I'm Deborah Frances White. With me is Riolina, and tonight we are talking about, among other things, the Epstein files. And that we won't go into anything graphic. I don't want anyone to feel like, oh, no, I'm going to hear terrible things. It's not about that, it's about the power structures, how we got here, where we're going now, but also other interconnecting fears we have about who's running the show and who is taking more power. So we're not going to dwell in any space, but we are going to be asking where we're at. And we have got some of the finest, two of the finest minds in journalism, I think really exceptional, exceptional writers and thinkers. We've got the incredible Carol Cadwalader and we've got. And we've got the wonderful Lucia Osbourne Crowley. I will introduce them again later when they come on, but I'm so excited about them. And they're from the Nerve News. And this is a guilty feminist nerve crossover. So this is both of our shows. So I just wanted to mention them early and let you know you'll be hearing from really clever people soon. Between now and then. I mean, Rhea actually is very clever because she's a scientist turned comedian, but she's not gonna show you how clever she is for a while because we're gonna do some ridiculous comedy.

[Riolina]

I also did leave science for comedy. How clever is that?

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yeah, I'm gonna go on my show.

[Riolina]

It's kind of like being a straight woman. Like, you know, we value ourselves but at the same time we still like men. It's really hard.

[Deborah Frances-White]

I know, I know. It's something to live with if you're attracted to men. But at the same time, there are some lovely men. We won't be hearing about them tonight. We actually do have a lovely man on the bill because I thought it's important for men to join the conversation. But he'll only be here briefly, don't worry. Now, are you ready for some stand up comedy? Then please welcome to the stage the incredible Realina.

[Lucia Osborne-Crowley]

Thank you so much.

[Riolina]

So I was asked to give a speech on feminism for International Women's Day at a financial institute in in the city. But when I showed up and looked at the audience, it became clear quite quickly that maybe I didn't need to give a 20 minute talk on feminism. Perhaps I just needed to stand there for 10 minutes and go, woman. Because the room was entirely filled with gammon. Now, you know what I mean by gammon, right? Yeah. I mean, it describes a very particular type of British gentleman who tends to be rather red and ruddy in the face from too much drinking, has very particular opinions on things like Brexit and immigration and. Ugh, why use words? This is Gammon,

[Deborah Frances-White]

Nigel. Right.

[Riolina]

But anyway, I gave my talk and afterwards, one of them came up to talk to me. Now, can anybody answer me this? Why do they love to wear the color salmon? Have you noticed that it's very popular with that particular group of people, which I find ironic because it renders them invisible. But he comes up to talk to me, and I thought, oh, this is good.

[Deborah Frances-White]

This is good.

[Riolina]

One of them wants to talk to me because I am a feminist. But I believe, therefore, that I should be open to every conversation that anybody wants to have, because that's the only way we're going to make progress is if there's actually an exchange of ideas.

[Deborah Frances-White]

And I thought, oh, my gosh, what

[Riolina]

does this guy want to talk to me about? Does he want to talk to me maybe about the wage gap, you know, because that's not equal. Or maybe he wants to talk to me about maternity versus paternity leave pay. That's not equal. You know what I mean? Maybe he wants to talk about access to medical care between the genders, because that's not equal. But whatever it is that he wants to talk to me, I am open and ready. He says to me, here's the problem with you feminists. You want equality, but only for the good stuff. You want equal pay. You want to be on top in bed sometimes, But you're not willing to accept equality for the bad stuff. What are you talking about, bad stuff? He said. And then he went on to say probably the stupidest thing I have heard in a very long time. He said, like, for example, did you know that 8 out of 10 crimes are committed by men? That's not equal. Now, my brain immediately went, rhea, this one's got stupid, and you might catch it. Get out. Get out while you can. But my mouth works faster than my brain, and before I could leave, it opened and it said, well, hang on a second. Did you ever stop to consider that maybe women are committing as much crime but only 2 out of 10 ever get caught? No. I said, there's a reason. There's a reason that men commit more crime. There's a reason that men commit more crime. It's because women tend to use more of their frontal lobes than men. Yeah. Do you know what your frontal lobe is used for? Thinking things through. They did studies. They actually invited a group of women to come into the lab. And what they would do is they would show them an action. And what they found is that the women would look at the action, then they would look at the consequence of the action before deciding whether or not to do the action. But then they took a group of men into the lab, and by the way, yes? Hashtag notallmen. Not all men.

[Lucia Osborne-Crowley]

Not all men.

[Riolina]

Not all men. Not all men. Not all men. But the men in the study would take a look at the action and then go, huh, I wonder what the consequences are of being friend with a pedophile. Even though we know he's a pedophile, because he went to jail for being a pedophile. And he has 3,000 of my emails on his laptop. Well, I guess we'll find out. Cause we're doing it, you know? And another thing, the consequences of those actions, especially if those actions are criminal, they tend to be far more detrimental to women than they are to men. I'll give you an example. Just one.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Just takes one.

[Riolina]

Actually, I'll give you two. I'll give you two examples, okay? Out of everything that's happened in the Epstein files, how many people are in jail for it? One, Two. Now, women, right? Here's another example. Much simpler, much more relatable to you and me. If you commit a crime, what will they publish about you in the paper the next day? Huh? Your name and your age. Now, you show me one woman in here who's willing to risk getting caught shoplifting from Boots, knowing that they will print in the paper the next day that she's perimenopausal. Oh, didn't think so. Yeah.

[Lucia Osborne-Crowley]

No.

[Riolina]

No volunteers. Men don't tend to care about stuff like that, though, do they?

[Deborah Frances-White]

Huh?

[Riolina]

David Watson, 37, robbed a bank. David Watson doesn't give a shit. If we want to see changes in the statistics, we need to change that number to something David Watson does care about. David Watson. Four and a half inches, robbed a bank.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Ah,

[Riolina]

now David Watson's thinking. Twice, in fact. You can hear him as they haul him off to prison. He'd be like, hang on a second. It was cold in the bank. They had the air con on. I swear it's six if you push in the ruler. So women go out and commit more crime. That's the moral of this story. They're not looking for you. Re.

[Lucia Osborne-Crowley]

Everybody

[Deborah Frances-White]

okay?

[Riolina]

Girl? Winter is so last season. And now spring's got you looking at pictures of tank tops with hungry eyes. Your algorithm is feeding you cutoffs. You're thirsty for the sun on your shoulders. That perfect hang on the patio sundress. Those sandals you can wear all day and all night. And you've had enough of shopping from your couch. Done. Hoping it looks anything like the picture. When you tear open that envelope, it's Time for a little in person spring treat. It's time for a trip to Ross. Work your magic.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Our first guest today is an investigative journalist who has spent years exposing the hidden forces shaping our politics, from Cambridge Analytica to the influence of Big Tech on democracy. Her fearless reporting takes on powerful institutions and makes complex systems legible to the rest of us. And the Nerve continues that work with urgency and clarity. She's also a compelling voice on truth, accountability and what it means to resist in the digital age. Please welcome to the stage Carol Cadwalader. Carol is joined by an investigative journalist and author who has reported from courtrooms around the world, specializing in stories of power abuse and the systems that protect them. Her work combines rigorous legal insight with a deep focus on the human impact behind the headlines. Please welcome Lucia Osborne Crowley. Come take a seat. So we're going to talk a little bit, then we're going to have an interval and then we're going to come back, we're going to talk more deeply and you're going to get a chance to do ask some Q's and get some A's from these brilliant women. But I just wanted to start off by saying thank you so much for joining us and we love the nerve news, so we're very, very excited to be doing a crossover with some absolutely brilliant journalistic minds. Could you just tell us a little bit about yourself, Carol, and how you've come to be here today?

[Carol Cadwalader]

Oh, gosh, how have I come to be? That's a big question. But thank you so much for being here and for collabing with Thenerv News. I love the fact to see it out in the wild. So we are five, all female journalists from the observer and from the Guardian. Observer. And basically what happened is they gave our newspaper away and I noticed that. I saw that. You saw that. So basically what happened is the Guardian, you know, the observer and the Guardian were all part of the same family and somebody in their wisdom decided to give our bit of the newspaper away. So we had a choice. Or some of them had a choice. I may have been pre sacked before I had the choice. It's a whole story, but anyhow. And we decided maybe the one that

[Deborah Frances-White]

broke all the Cambridge Analytica. Why would they pre sack you?

[Carol Cadwalader]

Well, I spoke up against the sale of the observer on behalf of my colleagues and some people thought they saw that as me being a union spokesperson and other people saw that me being a gobshite. And the people who did it depend

[Riolina]

whether they were looking up to you or down on you in the soccer room.

[Carol Cadwalader]

It kind of depended on whether they were the new owners or not the new owners. That was the critical division.

[Deborah Frances-White]

So you started the Nerve.

[Carol Cadwalader]

So, yes. So there's five of us, and they're all here tonight. And we were like, how hard can it be to set up your own all female led news organization in six months with no money? And it turns out it is quite hard, but it is also possible. So that's actually been. We're six months old, and Lucia is our latest recruit.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yay.

[Carol Cadwalader]

So that's very exciting.

[Deborah Frances-White]

That's so exciting. And why did you call it the nerve News?

[Carol Cadwalader]

Well, it was actually Sarah, who's here, who we had like, a list of about 800 names, and they're all terrible. And, you know, we were thinking about this early last year, Trump had come in, the world has fallen to pieces. All these law companies were folding, and, you know, news organizations in the US Were just settling these multimillion dollar lawsuits. And we were like, what pussies? And we just thought, gosh, you know, if there's something which you've just got to have in this moment, it's to have some nerve, have some nerve, have some nerves. So that's our idea.

[Deborah Frances-White]

It's quite evocative as well as. It's like sometimes you touch a nerve with the story that you bring out.

[Carol Cadwalader]

That's right, exactly. We've got T shirts, and mine one was bespoke, which was. There was. Other people had, like, have nerve. And then she's got ner, and mine was, she's got a fucking nerve.

[Co-host (possibly a producer or announcer)]

Brilliant.

[Deborah Frances-White]

And Lucia, can you tell us a little bit about yourself?

[Lucia Osborne-Crowley]

Yes, certainly. Hi. Thank you for having me. I'm a longtime listener, first time caller, which is something I've always wanted to say.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yes, absolutely.

[Lucia Osborne-Crowley]

My whole life, but no one's ever invited me on a podcast that I listen to all the time.

[Deborah Frances-White]

So that's amazing. And you actually have, as a longtime listener, you haven't. I'm a feminist. But you want to do, don't you?

[Lucia Osborne-Crowley]

Oh, no, no, no, no.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Okay. You actually can if you want.

[Lucia Osborne-Crowley]

No, no, no, no, no.

[Deborah Frances-White]

You sure?

[Lucia Osborne-Crowley]

Okay. Thank you. It's very feminist response of me. I was just thinking when Carol said, oh, Lucia's our newest recruit, and then you said, oh, and why did you decide to call it the Nerve? I thought you were going to say, oh, and why on earth did you recruit Lucia?

[Deborah Frances-White]

Not at all.

[Lucia Osborne-Crowley]

That was what came into my mind.

[Deborah Frances-White]

I've read your book, which is such a brilliant, brilliant book. And it's about. You were one of the only reporters allowed at the Ghislaine Maxwell trial, is that correct?

[Lucia Osborne-Crowley]

Yes.

[Deborah Frances-White]

And the book is a real reckoning. It's very detailed if it's something that you want to know about, but written in a very beautiful and sensitive way that I really recommend it. It's called the Lasting Harm and it's a really fantastic book. It's on offer on Kindle at the moment, actually. So if you didn't know that. But obviously. But buy the real book because then she'll get more money.

[Riolina]

Yeah, that's what I was going to ask. How can we get you the most money?

[Lucia Osborne-Crowley]

I have no idea.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Definitely buy the book.

[Lucia Osborne-Crowley]

Publishing is so weird. I don't understand it. It's very confusing. I don't know how it works. But buying the book would be great. So thanks.

[Deborah Frances-White]

And can you tell us a little bit about how you were able to be one of the only reporters at the trial and how that came about and what drew you to the nerve?

[Lucia Osborne-Crowley]

Yes. So I wish I could say that I got one of those coveted spots in the trial through merit, but I didn't, because how it worked was it's a high profile trial and they said, okay, we're going to have four reporters in the actual courtroom. For some unknown reason, they put Ghislaine's trial in one of the smallest courtrooms in this enormous federal courthouse. They said, there's going to be four of you, and the best way we can think to do that is to make you all line up and the first four in the line will come in and.

[Riolina]

What? Yeah, it was first come, first serve.

[Lucia Osborne-Crowley]

It was first come, first serve. So literally all I did was arrive before everyone else. But I'm like, I don't. I don't do anything by half, you know, Like, I'm not someone who, if I'm doing something, I'm doing it.

[Deborah Frances-White]

So you camped out, like, for concert tickets?

[Lucia Osborne-Crowley]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Deborah Frances-White]

That's incredible. Who were you writing for?

[Lucia Osborne-Crowley]

Just me. I was just writing a book. Just little old me.

[Deborah Frances-White]

So you were freelance, were you?

[Riolina]

Just. You're like the YouTuber of journalists.

[Lucia Osborne-Crowley]

It was. It was really mental, actually.

[Carol Cadwalader]

Wasn't it quite cold?

[Lucia Osborne-Crowley]

It was really. It was really fucking cold.

[Carol Cadwalader]

So what month was it?

[Lucia Osborne-Crowley]

Literally, it was December. Manhattan, mid winter. Like, it was so cold. And, you know, I know there are some Australians for an. Australian.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Australia?

[Lucia Osborne-Crowley]

Yeah, I'm Australian. Right. I'm from Brisbane. It's very hot in Brisbane.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Were you born in Brisbane?

[Lucia Osborne-Crowley]

I was actually born in Hackney, but I was raised in Brisbane. It's very different.

[Deborah Frances-White]

You're born in Hackney and raised in Brisbane?

[Lucia Osborne-Crowley]

Yeah, yeah, I was born in Hackney, went to Brisbane for a bit and then went to Sydney. And now I've come back to London. But from what I've heard tonight, I feel like I need to move to Braintree because it sounds like that's where absolutely brilliant.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Like.

[Lucia Osborne-Crowley]

Yeah, so that's gonna be my next.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yeah, we're all gonna camp out in that Witherspoon. Yeah.

[Lucia Osborne-Crowley]

So what I did was I basically. I realized that we had to get there at like, one o' clock in the morning in order to get one of these first four spots. And I was like, okay, well, I didn't move to New York to come and watch this trial from an overflow room because they let other journalists in the overflow rooms. But, like, you couldn't see anything. They had these giant screens with this, like, tiny image of what was happening. And I was like, I didn't fly all this way to do that. So I shall be one of the first four in line. And that means that I have to be here. It was like between midnight and one o' clock that I arrived every night. And they wouldn't let us in until about 8:30. And it was so cold, and also we were so tired. But, like, there was just so many problems with this setup because nowhere was open to, like, go to the bathroom, for example. So we, like, really wanted a coffee to wake us up, but then that would mean we'd need to pee, and there was nowhere to do that. So it was just a. Oh, my God, it was. It was awful. And the security guards wouldn't even let us sit down. Like, when we sat down, they would come and, like, stand us up. So we had to stand in the freezing cold. It was snowing one night. It was hailing one night. And then one night, I didn't go home at all. I just came out at 6pm from the courtroom and just stood out the front in line and waited there all night. But the best part of this is that because I was the only one doing this freelance, the other three journalists all had newspapers backing them. So their newspapers were paying for line sitters. I don't know if you guys know about this phenomenon, but it's a big thing in America. So this company, it was owned by this guy called Robert. He started it during COVID when he, like, wanted to change his life. I was so happy for him. I got to know this man so well because I spent all night, every night, sitting next to him for six weeks.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Were you not tempted to pay somebody to do it?

[Lucia Osborne-Crowley]

I couldn't afford it. It was so expensive and I had a tiny, tiny book advance.

[Deborah Frances-White]

I can absolutely see why the nerve recruited you. Because you have nerve.

[Lucia Osborne-Crowley]

Thank you.

[Deborah Frances-White]

You have nerve. Absolutely.

[Riolina]

I was gonna say baptism of fire, but baptism of ice, really? And snow and hail. I didn't realize you had to queue every night. I thought just the first four in were just the four that got to go in all the time.

[Lucia Osborne-Crowley]

I'll be honest with you. I thought the same thing that you did.

[Riolina]

Right.

[Lucia Osborne-Crowley]

When I planned the trip, but again, after the first day, I was like, I'm in now. You know, I just. My personality does not allow me to, like, half do things.

[Deborah Frances-White]

So when were you sleeping?

[Lucia Osborne-Crowley]

Not much.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Did you not go a bit like.

[Lucia Osborne-Crowley]

I mean. Yeah, yeah, to be honest, I did. I mean, I'd got, you know, I. We'd finish at like. The jury would be sent home at 4:30. The lawyers would do some stuff without the jury. We'd finish about six. I'd go back to my hotel, 7pm, go to sleep and set an alarm for 11pm wow. So I would sleep for a few hours and then.

[Deborah Frances-White]

We appreciate your service. Can you tell us about the trial and about what you learned and took away from the trial and how it manifests now in the world for you where we are with the Epstein files essentially being closed down, like, what shocks me so much is because they sent Jeffrey Epstein to prison, because they sent Ghislaine Maxwell to prison, they have acknowledged those two people were running a ring and were trafficking young women, vulnerable women and girls and children. They've acknowledged that. That is acknowledged. But not one man in this ring they can't find. The FBI can't find one man in the ring. Like, that makes no sense. Like, I don't understand it. So could you tell us a little bit about the trial and what it was like?

[Lucia Osborne-Crowley]

Yeah, well, I mean, it was really bizarre for that exact reason. So Jeffrey was first reported to the FBI in 1995. Law enforcement did nothing about it. Just let him. They just said, carry on. And then he was arrested in 2007. They kind of pretended to send him to jail, but they didn't really. Then they let him continue doing what he was doing. He was rearrested in 2019. We thought there was going to be a trial. That's what my book was going to be about. Then he got out of that trial, obviously, because he died. And then they arrested what an excuse.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Did he, though?

[Lucia Osborne-Crowley]

Well, that's a whole question, isn't it? So then.

[Deborah Frances-White]

No, I'm really asking you. Did he. I died. What do you think about that? Can I ask you, or is that just asking you to engage in conspiracy theories? Because I'm open to it. I used to. I was saying this in the dressing room, but I used to be that kind of person that went, there are no conspiracies. Anytime you get close to the seat of power, they can't even do the thing they're meant to be doing in public competently, much less the second secret thing. But now with all this that's come out in the Epstein files, I'm like, oh, shit. Like, bad guys are running things and lying to us and what else can we not believe? What do you. Do you have. I mean, I'm sort of pushing you to say, what do you think happened to Jeffrey Epstein? It's not like, you know, but do you have a sense?

[Lucia Osborne-Crowley]

I mean, it's so hard. I mean, I've been now touring this book for almost two years, and I get asked this all the time, but to be honest, you know, there are survivors who genuinely believe that it's very possible that he's alive somewhere. And, you know, that if anyone can have that arrangement set up for them, it's him. You know, he has the connections to be able to do that. You know, I don't know. What I do know is that nothing about his death in the mdc, which is the prison he was in, was usual. There's more and more things that. It seems increasingly unusual. We've got footage that's missing, we've got, you know, there's just a bunch of things that don't. Don't really add up.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yeah, they're like. All the prison wardens were asleep.

[Lucia Osborne-Crowley]

Yes.

[Deborah Frances-White]

And all the cameras went off, but one which shows no one went there. And like. Come on.

[Lucia Osborne-Crowley]

Yes. I mean, exactly. It's like, it feels absurd. And I spoke to someone on kind of deep, deep background who had worked in that particular prison, and he said that he thinks two people took a million dollar nap. That was really his theory of what happened. But, you know, it's just. We're just so far through the looking glass that, like, I don't know what happened that night, but it's like now that we've seen all the emails and also even just the evidence, we saw at trial the extent of the power that he commanded and that he kind of developed this insane network of powerful people.

[Riolina]

Can I ask A conspiracy theory question is that because he was Mossad?

[Lucia Osborne-Crowley]

I mean, so maybe, like, it's, it's. So here's what we know, right? We know that he, The FBI had evidence potentially of him abusing up to 100 girls in 2007, one of the most serious state crimes. And the FBI decided to let him plead to two counts of solicitation. They let him have day release. So he left jail every day for 12 hours. He went to his home, where he continued abusing girls and young women while he was technically in jail. Right? So we know that that plea deal was unprecedented. I've never heard of, you know, in all, you know, I've never heard of anything like it. And Jim Acosta, who later became Trump's Labor Secretary, was in charge of this deal. And when he was asked about it one time years ago, he said, I was told that I had to be very lenient with him because he's an asset. So he said on the record, he now says he didn't say it, but he, you know, he said he's an asset. That's something we know. Then we also know that there's an email from Jeffrey in the files that's jokingly saying, haha, please tell them I'm not Mossad. Which is, you know, I mean, I don't, I.

[Deborah Frances-White]

It's just.

[Lucia Osborne-Crowley]

And there's just many, many, many things that we know that point to that, but we can't know for sure.

[Deborah Frances-White]

To close the first half, I have got you, Chase. Taking a quick pick to close the first half, I decided that I have a frustration at the moment that men are not speaking out about these things that I see again and again, men not speaking out. And thank you to the one person who applauded that I went to the Cheltenham Literary Festival and ended up catching the train back with a poet who I was already following on Instagram, who I think is great. He think he speaks extremely openly and vulnerably and emotionally, but sort of straight face to you. And I was having a conversation with him the other day. We've become friends and I said, would you be interested in writing a poem about how it feels to be a man at the moment, especially with what's going on. A lot of you have seen that Motherless Story, which is basically a website that has a section that trains men to do what Gisele Pellico's husband did to her. And. Yeah. And I don't know what it feels to be like a man. A man at the moment, I can't Imagine what that feels like and how you go about talking to other men. I mean, I look around now because of post Giselle Pellico and go, how many men would do this? You know? So I thought I would ask Dan if he. And Dan said, I would absolutely love to write something like that. And so would you like to hear something from Dan? If not, it's going to be very disappointing for him because I'm going to have to say, don't. Don't come out.

[Riolina]

It's so nice that in 2026 we can have token men in shows.

[Deborah Frances-White]

Yes, exactly. He's the only one. Oh, actually, no, there's a male musician tonight as well.

[Riolina]

Oh, that's too many. They might synchronize.

[Deborah Frances-White]

All right, now, are we going to stay up here Graham Norton style? We didn't discuss this, or do you want to go and watch this from the audience and let Dan take the stage?

[Riolina]

Are you asking us to objectify him from behind or in front?

[Deborah Frances-White]

He is quite handsome. He is.

[Lucia Osborne-Crowley]

He really is.

[Deborah Frances-White]

God, imagine if this was four men talking and bringing on a woman talking.

[Riolina]

I know.

[Deborah Frances-White]

It would be really wrong. Shall we go and watch in the audience? Okay. All right, let's do that, please. Big round of applause for Carol Caldwallada, Lucia, Osborne, Crowley and Riolina. And now, welcome to the stage the wonderful Dan Whitlam.

[Dan Whitlam]

See, I would love if you just said, yeah, we want to objectify him from behind. Just. Why not? That was your goal. That was. I mean, hey, why not one morning party? No, you have to stay like that. How's everyone doing? Everyone doing good? Yeah. First I was gonna say massive. I don't think this goes any higher. We're out. We're out of room. First of all, just say massive. Thank you to the whole guilty feminist team, to Deborah, to everyone here today. Yeah, massive. Thank you. Yeah. I'm a musician and I'm a poet and I do know it. Awful. But I've been seeing a lot of. I've been seeing a lot of articles recently online or on social media in particular, about, you know, women having. Explaining their own experiences, their brave experiences with things they've gone through. And you always see, or I've always seen this one comment that keeps coming up, usually from a sort of faceless username that's always like, oh, it's not all men. You know, not all men. And from what I've seen, it's usually, you know, these comments are coming from people with sort of very random usernames, like, I don't know Shovelhead 37 or something similar. But it's always the same line, you know, it's sort of not all men. That's what they say, right? That most of us are the good guys. There was just a smaller portion that decided to do bad in blurred lines. But it's not all men, right? No, it's just the ones who stayed over a little too late or put the hand a little too far down her back. The ones who cat called in the nighttime saying I could see she wanted it from the way she acts. But you know, maybe it was the low cut top that she was wearing, the one that flowed and fell in Saturn. Or maybe it was the same lads who stood by with a smile and just let it all happen. Let it happen without a whisper. Stand up or consider how violence might land and leave something bitter. And so, you know, he goes home and then she goes home too. And maybe he goes home with a smile and maybe she goes home blue. And maybe he thinks it's okay while he's watching the news to see Sarah Everard murdered while he's taking off his shoes. But it's not all men.

[Deborah Frances-White]

No.

[Dan Whitlam]

But tell me then, how is it okay for someone to be afraid walking home late at night clenching their fists white knuckled while softly checking what's walking behind, Taking the time to stay by street lights because there's a little worry in mind that if it happens to one in three people, what's stopping it from happening tonight? But it's not all men. Or maybe it's all men until it's no men. Until no men stay silent. The way you stayed silent when your friend called her a name and you just sat back and laughed. The way you didn't really ask, just called it a fit of passion. The way a brave woman trusted her husband for 50 years before suffering the worst things imagined. But it's not all men. But it's all men who chose not to. Chose not to make a woman feel safe or pointed out when it happened. Chose silence over correction because it felt easier to manage. Chose not to speak up or speak out when it was happening right in front of you. Chose to hear the joke and laugh instead of correcting the bad view. Now, in a world where you have to share your location in a taxi or receive a text, meanwhile you get home safe in a world where 70,000 men are in a rape group chat, trading tactics like it's a game. I asked what kind of man are you? What kind of man am I? Are we going to be allies to women and do our best to understand the terrors they go through in this life. Or do we stand by silently and watch the numbers rise? Inaction is indifference, and indifference leads us to the statement of all men. Now, if I can leave you with anything, I want to leave you with this. I wrote this for International Women's Day in memory of my mum who I lost when I was a lot younger. But I thought I might just give it a little nice cap to end things with Dear women of our lifetime, you women are our lifeline. The ones who bring us into this world and teach us kindness from a bright mind. The ones who, despite it all, are still planting seeds in this ugly world. They're turning fields of greed into fields of green and hate into lovely words. And as mothers and sisters, girlfriends to lovers, the ones who smother us in hugs when we're downtrodden by what's above us, the ones who push past adversity and still they're standing with that weight. The women who had to wait to be seen because change in the world was running late. We need to be better for our women. More respect for our women. With your best breath, tell him you love them for tomorrow is not a given. I want to rise for our women. Move with the times for our women. For women are the ones with wonder that's kept in their vision. Look, I pray that I listen because she spoke and held the whole universe between her lips. Thank you very much. Abhin Da Willum,

[Deborah Frances-White]

Dad Wyndham, everybody. Gosh, he's tall, isn't he? So when we say not all men, he's the man, he's the one that isn't. Thank you so much. That's been act one. Go and have a break. Go to the loo and get a drink and we'll see you back here in 10 to 15. Thank you very much. So that was the first half. Join us for part two which should

[Co-host (possibly a producer or announcer)]

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[Deborah Frances-White]

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[Deborah Frances-White]

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[Riolina]

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[Deborah Frances-White]

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