Forget Small Talk: Go Deep Instead

Summary

The Happiness Lab with Dr. Laurie Santos

Episode: Forget Small Talk: Go Deep Instead
Date: July 13, 2026
Host: Dr. Laurie Santos
Guests:

• Claire Eastham (author, mental health blogger)
• Dr. Nick Epley (psychology professor, University of Chicago)

---

Overview

This episode explores the limitations of small talk and the surprising benefits of deeper, more authentic conversation. Dr. Laurie Santos argues, drawing on scientific research and real-life stories, that ditching superficial pleasantries for honest, vulnerable connections can dramatically boost happiness and well-being. She is joined by Claire Eastham, who shares her personal journey from small talk–averse social anxiety to confidently steering conversations into deeper territory, and by Dr. Nick Epley, whose research challenges our assumptions about what kinds of conversations actually make us happy.

---

Key Discussion Points

Why Small Talk Feels So Awkward

• Claire Eastham describes her lifelong discomfort with small talk, which triggers anxiety, self-doubt, and the feeling of needing to "perform."
  • "There's always a lot of what if questions... almost immediately accompanied by the emotional response, which is more anxiety, stress, fear..." – Claire Eastham (01:04)
• She finds chit-chat about the weather or "how are you?" disingenuous and unfulfilling.
  • "I know the response is 'I'm fine. How are you?' But 50% of the time I'm not fine. And I don't feel like answering that question inauthentically because it's a lie." – Claire Eastham (01:56)
• Dr. Laurie Santos highlights the opportunity cost: Small talk eats up the time and social energy we could invest in more meaningful connections.
  • "We should completely get rid of small talk. I’m talking zero tolerance." – Dr. Laurie Santos (03:23)

The Search for Authenticity

• Claire credits her grandmother, Evelyn, as an early model for honest and playful conversation.
  • "My grandma used to just sit in the kitchen chain smoking cigarettes and sort of slagging the rest of the family off because she did not perform for anybody." — Claire Eastham (04:56)
• As an adult, Claire’s anxiety about “fitting in” led to maladaptive coping: extreme people-pleasing, avoidance, and using alcohol as a crutch.
  • "Alcohol was a massive crutch. It was a lot of sedating how I was feeling." – Claire Eastham (07:22)
• After a severe panic attack and a subsequent social anxiety disorder diagnosis, Claire began writing a blog (“We’re All Mad Here”), advocating for genuine conversation and self-compassion.
  • "Social anxiety...is you being like, 'I’m in here! Let me out!'" – Claire Eastham (09:13)

Pandemic Lessons: A Shift Away from Small Talk

• During Covid lockdowns, Claire noticed conversations became more real by necessity.
  • "It's funny you wouldn't say, 'How are you?', because it's just like, 'I'm still stuck in my house, same as yesterday.' ... We have to be more creative." – Claire Eastham (09:39)
• Post-pandemic, returning to old superficial scripts felt even more jarring—sparking Claire’s decision to conduct a radical experiment: a month of no small talk.
  • "What if...I just got rid of small talk altogether? What if...I chose to start every new conversation by embodying my inner Evelyn and just getting straight into the weird, authentic stuff..." – Dr. Laurie Santos (11:14)
  • "Let's do it as a fun experiment. And I really did have faith that a lot of people would respond positively." – Claire Eastham (11:26)

The Science: Deep Talk and Connection

• Dr. Nick Epley’s research shows people drastically underestimate how enjoyable and connecting deeper conversations will be, and overestimate potential awkwardness.
  • "You could just feel the energy just drain right out... But then things just started to shift. The room just started to turn. It got lively..." – Nick Epley (15:13, 15:52)
  • After his “deep question” experiment, participants reported enjoying authentic conversations much more than expected, often forming surprising connections—even physically (hugs, tears).
    • "You didn't even need to look at the data. You could feel it in the room." – Nick Epley (16:51)
• The famous “Fast Friends” procedure demonstrates that mutual, escalating self-disclosure—even with strangers—rapidly forges a sense of closeness.
  • "At the end of all of those questions, the people who had talked about more meaningful things, they felt much, much closer." – Nick Epley (18:50)
• Most people wish their conversations were deeper (desired depth: 6/10) vs. reality (2/10).
  • "If these are the conversations you want to be having and you enjoy them a lot, why are you not having them?" – Dr. Laurie Santos (21:05)

Why Don’t We Go Deeper?

• The “cringe voice” and the myth that authentic conversation will backfire keep us playing it safe, even though reciprocity (others mirroring our openness) is the norm.
  • "If you open up to somebody else...they tend to open up to you in return. You've signaled that you trust them..." – Nick Epley (22:55)
• Experiments show that how friendly or vulnerable we are directly affects how others behave toward us:
  • "It's that you were friendlier. You used the power you had to make people friendlier..." – Nick Epley (24:17)
• Small talk can be a useful launchpad, but diving in deeper—as soon as the second question—is the key to connection.
  • "You can just get to deep, meaningful stuff much faster than you think." – Nick Epley (26:03)

---

Memorable Moments and Notable Quotes

Claire’s “No Small Talk” Month: Successes and Surprises

First trial at a friend’s art show (30:25):

• Instead of discussing the art, Claire asked, “Remember your art teacher from school?”—prompting vivid, fun stories, and genuine laughter.
  • "It was the first time that Claire had actually had fun at a social event." – Dr. Laurie Santos (30:52)
  • "We're gonna keep doing it because it's lighting us up..." – Claire Eastham (31:12)

Unexpected delight from strangers:

• On asking a barista about his favorite season (31:32), or a TV show watcher, "If you could kill someone and get away with it, what would be your plan?" (31:32)
  • "It was really graphic, and I was like, wow." – Claire Eastham (31:59)

The conversation with Tracey at the café (32:22):

• Leads to Tracey revealing her rock-carrying safety habit, a near-abduction, and the start of a real friendship.
  • "We met up a couple days later and talked for two hours, like non stop over coffee...childlike...addictive." – Claire Eastham (33:25)

Not every try is a hit:

• "Not everyone's going to like you, and that's okay. It's about finding one person you connect with in the room. I'll take that." – Claire Eastham (33:57)
• Learning when to politely disengage without self-blame. (34:18)

The fun of weird questions (35:00):

• “If you could have any mythological creature as a pet, what would you go for?”
  • Laurie picks a fairy: “I feel like a fairy, you could throw a diaper on her and be all right.” (35:25)
  • Claire: “Dragon, obviously...burn places to the ground...that tells me more about your personality and it tells you more about mine.” (35:31–35:47)
• Cartoon crushes: Both Laurie and Claire admit to loving Disney’s Robin Hood fox (36:07).

Dr. Nick Epley on Practical Deep Talk

• On why people underestimate themselves:
  • "When it comes to talking to people ... people think they're terrible at that." – Nick Epley (22:19)
• On reciprocity:
  • "If you'd like a conversation to be more interesting and meaningful, you can do that...when I open up to you, you're going to open back." – Nick Epley (23:22)
• On how he’s lost the cringe voice:
  • "I've lost when it comes to deep conversation, I've lost the cringe voice. I just don't have it anymore." – Nick Epley (27:53)

---

Practical Advice

How To Go Deep (from Dr. Nick Epley and Claire Eastham)

• It’s okay to start with a standard question (“What do you do?”), but immediately follow with something personal (“Do you love it?” or “What’s your favorite part?”)
• Take a “two-step” approach—surface to meaningful (26:03)
• Try fun, unexpected questions: childhood teachers, mythological pets, quirky hypothetical scenarios
• If unsure, own your awkwardness: “I’m not good at small talk, do you mind if I ask you about…?” (39:08)
• Start small: try for just a day, and see if your mood improves.

"Start small...The most important thing is to start. ...You don't have to do it for 28 days. You could just do it for a day. See what it does to your mood. See if it raises your vibration a little bit."
– Claire Eastham (38:39)

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:48–04:39: Claire Eastham’s struggles and the roots of small talk anxiety
• 07:37–09:13: Claire’s panic attack, diagnosis, and blogging journey
• 09:39–11:26: Pandemic changes & the inspiration for Claire’s “no small talk” experiment
• 13:02–17:16: Dr. Nick Epley's research: deep conversation with financial executives
• 18:13–21:24: The evidence from "Fast Friends" and how deep talk fosters closeness
• 22:19–26:03: Why people avoid deep talk; the power of reciprocity and friendliness
• 30:15–34:46: Claire's real-world experiment results: practical examples, new friendships
• 35:00–36:48: Fun deep questions with Laurie and Nick
• 38:39–39:08: Claire’s advice for starting deeper conversations

---

Final Takeaway

“We all need to ditch the small talk and go a little deeper.” – Dr. Laurie Santos (39:08)

Challenge your “cringe voice”: evidence and lived experience show that opening up creates richer, more satisfying human connection—for both you and your conversation partner. Even if you start small, experiment with authenticity, and you'll likely find that going deep feels not just less awkward than expected, but also truly magical.

---

Resource Links Mentioned:

• drlaurysantos.com/deepquestions (Nick Epley's full list of deep questions)
• Nick Epley's new book: A Little More Social

---

Next Week:
Tune in for a “happiness hot take” on the importance of male friendships (bromances).

“Like if I meet a dude and I like him...A guy is never going to do that.” – Nick Epley tease for next episode (40:08)

Transcript

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.

[Mandy Woodruff Santos]

This is Mandy Woodruff Santos from Brown Ambition. When you think about discovering small brands, what store pops into your mind? Well, it should be Walmart. Seriously, Walmart has thousands of small brands and they're all in one place. Just go online or in store, discover and shop. It could not be easier. Every one of these brands has a real story and real people behind it, but they're true American success stories and you can find them all at Walmart. Discover thousands of small [e-mail] today.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Pushkin.

[Claire Eastham]

I'm not a mysterious person. Like I really wish I was. I've tried and to be a cool girl. I can't do that. That's not me. I'm just like.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

For as long as she can remember, author and mental health blogger Claire Eastham has found social situations to be surprisingly stressful.

[Claire Eastham]

What if I say something stupid? What if I make a fool of myself? What if I'm boring? What if nobody wants to talk to me? There's always a lot of what if questions mentally and they are almost immediately accompanied by the emotional response, which is more anxiety, stress, fear, and then the physical symptoms such as pounding heart. Sometimes I might blush or sort of general feeling of unease. I tend to get like I like I want to bolt.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And the conversational norm that makes Claire want to bolt the most is small talk.

[Claire Eastham]

What do you think of the weather? What's going on?

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

You staying busy? Man, I can't believe it's already Wednesday. How is the traffic on your drive?

[Claire Eastham]

Oh my God. I don't know if it's the same. When you were in the uk, people love to talk about how they arrived at a venue. What road did you take? Like I have no idea mate. I just got here.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And don't get Claire started on this all too common conversation starter. How are you?

[Claire Eastham]

It just feels like too light of a question to answer because you think I know the response is I'm fine. How are you? But 50% of the time I'm not fine. And I don't feel like answering that question inauthentically because it's a lie.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Claire has long dreaded spending time in small talk. Conversational autopilot.

[Claire Eastham]

I, I didn't know how long it was supposed to last. I didn't know what I was supposed to say because I'm not interested in the weather. It's like it's raining again. Uh huh. We can't go anywhere with this unless you take us somewhere. And I'm stressed that you might not do that and then the responsibility will fall on me, and I don't know what to say apart from, you know, rain is wet.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

As you can hear, Claire does have some not so small feelings about small talk. But I'm guessing that at least some of you listening right now can relate to talking about the weather for the fifth time in a single afternoon, being asked how you're doing by someone who doesn't even listen to your response. Superficial interactions like these can feel painful. They can cause you to second guess if you're doing the whole social connection thing right or if it's even worth it. Which leads me to today's happiness. Hot take. You ready? Here it is. We should completely get rid of small talk. I'm talking zero tolerance. We need to fully rethink our usual approach to conversational autopilot. Why kill off small talk, you ads? Well, research shows that small talk has an opportunity cost, that our minds don't realize. All those how's the weathers and is it Friday yets cause us to miss out on a happier way that we could be spending our social interactions, A type of conversation that feels less stressful, more engaging, and way, way more fun. Our minds are constantly telling us what to do to be happy. But what if our minds are wrong? What if our minds are lying to us, leading us away from what will really make us happy? The good news is that the science of the mind can point us all back in the right direction. You're listening to the happiness lab with me, Dr. Laurie Santos.

[Claire Eastham]

I would sort of scan people almost like the Terminator, you know, like looking for signs that this person doesn't like me, this person's bored. And I would view all social interactions as a success or a failure.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Growing up, author and blogger Claire Eastham often thought of social situations as if she was going into battle. Take family get togethers. Some kids love seeing their relatives. But Claire hated family celebrations so much that she'd regularly get stomach aches on the car ride over. She'd spend days before these upcoming events worried about conversations she'd be forced to endure.

[Claire Eastham]

Oh, and so and so got this promotion, and so and so has got this many grades at school, and da, da, da, da, da, like, why are we having these chats?

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

But there was one family member that young Claire did feel comfortable around, someone who seemed to detest small talk just as much as she did her grandmother, Evelyn Eastham.

[Claire Eastham]

My grandma used to just sit in the kitchen chain smoking cigarettes and sort of slagging the rest of the family off because she did not perform for anybody.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Grandma Eastham wore her conversational authenticity with pride.

[Claire Eastham]

What do you really think of your Uncle Paul? Guess I'll tell you what I think. He thinks he's flashy with his BMW.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Well, Claire's grandmother also found a way to make conversation more fun, often by adding a bit of ridiculousness.

[Claire Eastham]

She managed to convince me that she wrote the wizard of Oz, but she sat it in Wigan in the uk. I believed this, but she told me like half the story around this dining room table. And I was like, this is amazing, Grandma. And she would encourage me. She was like, well, if you were going to write a story, like, what would you write about and what characters would you have? And. And then she'd be like, well, you should write it down. And then next time I see you, you could tell me about it.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Evelyn's off the wall questions and authentic curiosity helped young Claire feel more comfortable during family gatherings. But as Claire got older, safe social spaces like these felt rarer and rarer.

[Claire Eastham]

When I have to perform, that's what I call it. The how are you? How did you get here? It's more stressful for me because I feel like I'm swallowing part of my personality to fit in. And then all I do is. Is clockwatch. Like, how long do I have to stay? How long am I here for? Because I'm getting no enjoyment out of this and it's just making me feel more anxious.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Whenever Claire was forced to be social, she found herself seeking out allies, like Evelyn.

[Claire Eastham]

I would just try and find the people who would make me feel like I could be myself. Really? Like, who's not playing the game? You. Marvelous.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

But that got harder after Claire graduated and entered the working world, securing a position at one of the most prestigious publishing houses in London. Claire was huge for Claire's blossoming career, but it meant regularly facing the sorts of social battlegrounds that she feared the most.

[Claire Eastham]

And I think there's a lot of people here I potentially have to perform to. I can't control this environment. I can't control what's going to happen next.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

To gain back a sense of control, Claire developed a whole host of not so healthy coping strategies. Behaviors like extreme people pleasing.

[Claire Eastham]

My friend said this about me, actually. She said you could get hit by a bus and, you know, your arm would come off and you'd be like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. I'll just pick it up and walk off.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And avoiding potential small talk situations to the point of bladder discomfort, I would.

[Claire Eastham]

Sometimes I go to the loo because I didn't want to have to walk past so many people's desks.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Claire even found herself turning to the unhealthy standby that many of us use in social situations.

[Claire Eastham]

Alcohol was a massive crutch. It was a lot of sedating how I was feeling.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

But maladaptive coping strategies like these can only take a person so far. And one fateful day, Claire had what she likes to call a breakthrough breakdown.

[Claire Eastham]

It was a big acquisitions meeting. I had what I now know was a panic attack. I didn't know what it was then. I thought it was a stroke. I thought, okay, so I'm going to die, but I really don't want to make a scene. For some bizarre reason, my brain told me that in order to get out of the situation, I should stand up very slowly in front of everyone and say in a posh voice, which I don't have, I have the neurovirus and I must leave once. And then legged it out of the room.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Claire then continued legging it into the elevator and out of the building and then miles away down the street.

[Claire Eastham]

I did not stop running because something had snapped and I did not know what to do. So, yeah, there was no sort of sweeping that one under the rug.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

The next morning, Claire went to her doctor. She explained how anxious she'd been at work for months and how sitting through that big meeting seemed to trigger a medical emergency.

[Claire Eastham]

It was diagnosed in under 30 seconds, like, this is textbook social anxiety disorder and he had a panic attack and a big part of me didn't want to accept it.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

At first, Claire was pretty self critical about her diagnosis. But with time, she developed more self compassion. Eventually, she wanted to share that compassion with others who were going through similar mental health challenges. So in 2013, she started a blog entitled we're all mad here, in which she shared her experiences with social anxiety as well as lots of relatable advice. Thousands upon thousands of subscribers signed up. The blog quickly turned into a book with the same name, which sold out of its first print in just five days. Claire went from denying her disorder to becoming an international expert.

[Claire Eastham]

Social anxiety, a lot of it comes from repressing who you are. I think of social anxiety as you being like, I'm in here, I'm in here, let me out, let me out. Why are you punishing me?

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

But Claire was about to enter a period where that sort of punishment, as she called it, would die down a lot. Because for Claire and pretty much every other human on the planet, social interaction, as usual, was about to Undergo a massive change in lockdown.

[Claire Eastham]

The world shut down. And we, the conversations that we had did tend to be more meaningful. It's funny you wouldn't say, how are you? Because it's just like, I'm still stuck in my house, same as yesterday. Nothing has changed. What else do you want to talk about? You know, we have to be more creative.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Claire thrived in the unique moment that was 2020 in the midst of a global pandemic. People were feeling vulnerable, so they tended to drop the usual pleasantries in order to connect a bit more deeply. Conversations were taking place on a computer screen, but Claire still found them to be more real, more like the ones she remembered with her grandmother Evelyn back in the day. Claire hoped that this shift in small talk would last once everybody went back into the real world.

[Claire Eastham]

I'll never forget, I went into a Costa coffee shop, was one of my first interactions, and locked eyes with someone and she's sort of like, how are you? How's the weather? Blah, blah, blah. And I was just sort of like, I can't remember what to say.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And Claire wasn't alone. Many people reported a drop in their social skills post Covid, which meant that our surface level small talk interactions became even more strained than they were before. After months of more authentic seeming conversations, Claire's return to the world of small talk felt like torture. And that is when Claire made the decision that there had to be another way.

[Claire Eastham]

I'm sick of, like, being so horrible to myself about this that, right, we're deliberately not going to do it now. I'm not going into another social situation, thinking, make sure you seem normal for the first couple of minutes and then you can be yourself?

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

What if, Claire thought, I just got rid of small talk altogether. What if, for one entire month, I chose to start every new conversation by embodying my inner Evelyn and just getting straight into the weird, authentic stuff that I'd have more fun talking about.

[Claire Eastham]

I thought, let's do it. Let's do it as a fun experiment. And I really did have faith that a lot of people would respond positively.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

How do conversations go when you force your partners to go deeper? When you completely reject the usual pleasantries for an entire month? Well, we'll find out when the happiness lab returns from the break. The best summer pieces are the ones you end up wearing on repeat. For me, that means clothes that feel comfortable, versatile, and somehow look right for every occasion. That's why I love Quince. They make elevated essentials using premium materials like European linen, organic cotton, and washable silk without the traditional retail markup. This summer I've been obsessed with Quince's washable stretch silk tiered maxi dress. It's made of silk with just enough stretch to actually move with you. It looks just as perfect at a posh summer dinner party as it does on a beach walk. Plus it has pockets, which I love. But that's just the beginning. Quince has denim that's broken in and soft and their 14 karat gold jewelry. Think hoops and delicate chains are the kind of finishing touches that make a five minute outfit look completely intentional. Make your summer wardrobe feel easier. Go to quint.com Happiness for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com Happiness for free shipping and 365 day returns quints.com Happiness

[Nick Epley]

I went in totally nervous. I had never been sweating bullets before a talk as much as I had with this one, because when you run a live demonstration and in front of an audience, if it doesn't work for some reason you are really sunk.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

This is my friend and Happiness Lab regular, the psychologist Nick Ebley. He's telling me about the first time he tried out what has now become one of his most famous social connection interventions.

[Nick Epley]

I was out in Connecticut speaking at a financial decision making conference that I invited to come and speak at and we've got a room of maybe 50, 60 people sitting there. These are all high level executives running pension funds. I mean, these are serious folks. I was really the only one not wearing a suit that day and they had not really anticipated that they'd be bringing somebody in to do touchy feely sort of things. But that's what I was there to do.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Nick studies the psychological effects of engaging in the sorts of social situations that we assume will make us feel awkward. In previous Happiness Lab episodes, Nick has shared his research on what happens when people strike up a conversation with a stranger or sincerely express gratitude to someone they haven't spoken to for a while, or ask a random person on the street for help with a vulnerable situation. In all of these cases, Nick finds that people's interactions feel much less awkward and much more enjoyable than they think. But Nick was also interested in what happens when we ratchet up the awkwardness of conversations even higher. What happens when we channel our inner Evelyn Easthams and chat with complete strangers about the most vulnerable topics possible? Nick was going to find out. Using the titans of the financial industry as his guinea pigs.

[Nick Epley]

We start talking. I present some of my early research and then I tell them what we're going to do. Then in a minute, we are going to put up some questions on the screen and I'm going to pair you up with another person and you're going to have a conversation with them about these questions.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

But the questions Nick put up on the screen weren't part of the usual small talk script. Things like, where do you work? Or how was your commute? His questions included, what is one of the most embarrassing moments of your life? If you could undo one of the mistakes you've made in life, what would it be and why? And can you describe the last time you cried in front of another person?

[Nick Epley]

I mean, it's not the most energetic room to begin with, but you could just feel the energy just drain right out. There was a guy sitting right in front of me. I will never forget it. As soon as I put up this question, everybody kind of groaned, but he yelled out, oh, expletive. Yeah. Oh, I don't know if I'm a little.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

You can swear.

[Nick Epley]

Oh, shit is what he said.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

But Nick forged on. He began the exercise by having the executives make some predictions. On a scale of 1 to 10, how much do you think you're going to enjoy this vulnerable conversation? How connected will you feel to the person afterwards? And how awkward will you feel? After completing their surveys, the businessmen paired up and got chatting.

[Nick Epley]

Started a little bit slow at first, but then things just started to shift. Like the room just started to turn. It got lively by about 15 minutes, which is when I thought I was going to bring them back. They were going so strong in their conversations, I couldn't figure out how to get them back. Right. Like I'd never faced this before. I'm saying, all right, clapping my hands, time to come back. Eventually I get the microphone and I got to do a countdown from five, which I learned from my kids kindergarten teacher works, and then finally got them back. And then I had them report how the conversations had actually gone, how awkward they actually were, how much they actually enjoyed the conversation. The gaps were stunning.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

The execs predicted that their conversations would feel mediocre at best, that they wouldn't enjoy the exercise all that much because they'd be feeling awkward the entire time. But after the exercise was complete, they reported that their actual conversations were were far less awkward and far more delightful than they expected. To their absolute shock. Ditching the usual small talk felt great.

[Nick Epley]

You didn't even need to look at the data. You could Feel it in the room. These people who had started out very nervous, you could see them in their conversations that they had just come to life. I remember one couple over on the left, one pair, they hugged at the end, which, like, these are not huggers, right? There was a guy up in the way back who was tearing up. Everybody was shaking hands. When they were done, you didn't need to see the data. You could see the data right in front of you.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Psychologists have known about the connective power of deep conversations like Nick's for some time. Consider, for example, what's known as the fast friends procedure. This now famous technique was first developed back in the 90s by psychologists Art and Elaine Aaron, a married couple who met and fell in love rather quickly when they were young researchers, an experience that got the pair interested in the factors that caused people to connect rapidly. Here's how the errands fast friends procedure. Two strangers are paired together and asked to discuss a series of 36 deep questions with one another. The questions start off relatively casually, Things like, would you like to be famous? Or if you could pick anyone in the world, who would you want as a dinner guest? But as conversation continues, the strangers start going even deeper, asking each other questions more like the ones Nick used with his executives. Things like, how do you feel about your relationship with your mother? And if you died tonight, what would you most regret not having told someone?

[Nick Epley]

Right. They start from pretty shallow, and then they slowly escalate, like a 747 jet taken off the Runway, slow and steady.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

The Aarons correctly hypothesized that this slow increase of mutual disclosure would cause people to feel more connected. But the researchers also assumed the other variables would matter for connection factors like how interested people were in doing the procedure or how similar people's answers were to one another.

[Nick Epley]

And those things just did not at all. The only thing that mattered is what were you talking about? And at the end of all of those questions, the people who had talked about more meaningful things, they felt much, much closer.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Nick and his colleagues have found similar effects using the shorter and more extreme version of the fast friends procedure.

[Nick Epley]

We don't take the 747 off the Runway approach. We're more like hop into a helicopter, right, and you're gonna go deep right away. And that looks like it works. I have had people say this was the best conversation I've ever had. I have had people in these sessions tell me that they told somebody something they have never told somebody else before.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Across thousands of participants, both in laboratory settings and at Real life events like that financial conference. Nick's results are nearly always the same. Deep conversations consistently make us feel happier and more connected than polite small talk does.

[Nick Epley]

What's interesting to me is that you can have those conversations almost any day that you want to if you choose to do it.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

But it seems like most of the time we don't choose to do it. Nick says we often get stuck in the small talk mode that socially anxious blogger Claire Eastham detested so much.

[Nick Epley]

So we talk about current events, we talk about what you do for a living, right? But not, do you love what you do for a living? Is this your dream job? Small talk is all the outside stuff. Deep talk is going into where your heart sits, to where your beliefs sit, to where your values sit, to where what's really important to you sits. It means going deeper inside somebody's mind, away from the superficial stuff, to something deep. And you can fail at small talk if you don't feel up on current events, or you don't know something about somebody's job, or you didn't go out and see this movie that somebody else saw, or you don't watch sports. Right? You can fail on that stuff because it's about news and things. I think it's actually harder to fail at deep talk.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

So these deep conversations make us feel really good. But how often are people having these deep conversations?

[Nick Epley]

Well, certainly not as often as they would want to. So at the end of these conversations, we ask people, how deep was this conversation? They say, really deep. So this is, you know, on a zero to ten scale, we're talking like a seven. That's how deep this was. We ask them, how deep are the conversations you typically have? They say, like a two, not very deep at all. And then we ask them, how deep are the conversations you would like to be having? And they say, well, maybe not quite as deep as that one. On average, we don't have to talk about the last time we cried in front of another person all the time. But they say, more like a six, way deeper than the conversations they're typically having. And that's what's so interesting to me as a psychologist. If these are the conversations you want to be having and you enjoy them a lot, why are you not having them?

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

The first reason, Nick says, is that we have some unusually miscalibrated beliefs about how good we'll be at conversation. Generally, we tend to assume we'll be pretty bad at it, which is a result that, as a psychologist, I find to be a very weird effect. Usually when researchers ask people how good they are at some desirable trait relative to the average person, they tend to overestimate that ability. They show what social psychologists call the above average effect. For example, one study found that around 70% of people think they're above average at performing their job, cooking, reading, and even taking care of personal hygiene. Of course, 70% of people being above average on all these traits is statistically impossible. But people don't seem to realize this, at least for most desirable traits. But when you ask the same people how good they are relative to the average person at conversation, you find the exact opposite effect.

[Nick Epley]

We're above average on all these things. Leadership ability and driving. Driving, yes. The ability to get along well with others. Right. We're all stars and all these other things. But when it comes to talking to people, the thing we do, so much of people think they're terrible at that.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

So why does conversation give us so much self doubt?

[Nick Epley]

So part of it, I think, comes from failing to understand reciprocity. The norm of reciprocity is the dominant social behavioral norm on this planet. So if I smile to you, what do you do back to me? You smile back. If I don't smile at you, what do you do to me? You don't smile. I say hi to you, say hi back to me.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Right.

[Nick Epley]

If you want somebody to be friendly with you, be friendly with him first. But people don't seem to appreciate the power of that norm. We don't seem to realize if you open up to somebody else in conversation first, they tend to open up to you in return. You've signaled that you trust them, that you're interested in them, and they then take an interest in you.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

So much of our conversation pessimism stems from the fact that we don't realize that our partners will happily reciprocate the work that we put into trying to connect with them.

[Nick Epley]

We think we're paddling upstream a canoe with one paddle. And what we forget is there's somebody else in the boat with us too, who is helping us. You don't have to drive the entire conversation. You can. If you'd like a conversation to be more interesting and meaningful, you can do that. You have the power to do that if you try. But what we don't appreciate is that when I open up to you, you're going to open back. We're going to be paddling this canoe together, this conversation together. And that's what people don't seem to realize.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

We also forget that how we steer a social interaction will affect how Our partners react. Nick did a clever study that tested this.

[Nick Epley]

This was one where we sent people around the museum and we asked them to just assess how friendly are other people at the museum today.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

In one condition, Nick coached his subjects to be friendlier than they would normally be. They were told to smile at the other people they ran into and to interact by saying hello whenever they could.

[Nick Epley]

In the other condition, they were just like detectives. They just went around, walked around, and just noticed how friendly people seemed to be. But we didn't tell them to engage with other people when they came back to us. They reported having a more positive walk when they were smiling and saying hello to people. But they also reported that people at the museum were friendlier that day than people in the control condition simultaneously. That makes all the sense in the world and no sense in the world, right? There were not different people at the museum that day. You made people different, and you made them be friendlier by engaging with them first. It wasn't that there were friendlier people at the museum. It's that you were friendlier. You used the power you had to make people friendlier, and you didn't recognize that.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Another thing that people don't seem to realize about the norm of reciprocity is how it affects the grace people are willing to give us. During social interactions, when we're about to go deep with someone new, we often start to hear what Nick likes to call the cringe voice. That voice inside our head that cringes as soon as it thinks of all the things that could go wrong when we start to engage in this new conversation. But the cringe voice doesn't take into account reciprocity norms. It forgets that if we speak to someone openly and authentically, that person tends to respond with kindness, not with judgment. All of these findings have convinced Nick that it's time for all of us to ditch the usual small talk in favor of deeper conversations. He outlines his advice for how to do this in his excellent new book, A Little More How Small Choices Create Unexpected Expected Happiness, Health, and Connection. Many of Nick's tips involve finding ways to go deeper in conversation a little more quickly, often much more quickly than we assume is appropriate.

[Nick Epley]

There are places where small talk works, and the place where small talk works is often the first question, the first thing you ask somebody about what is it you do for a living? Where is it you live? What do you like to do? Right. It's often a good launchpad. It's a good starting point to engage with somebody, and it also allows you to signal that you know you're not a crazy person. It allows you to show some interest, but you can just get to deep, meaningful stuff much faster than you think. And so if you would like to have more deep, meaningful, better conversations in your life, you can choose to do it. And it's often on that second question, you can do it in two steps, I think, usually. So what is it you do for a living? Do you love what you do for your living? What was your favorite part about it? What did you love the most about it? You find out kind of what people are about, and then you find out why.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Have your conversations gotten better since choosing to go deeper?

[Nick Epley]

Absolutely. For one thing, I've learned that having these deeper conversations is a lot about the mindset that you take when you approach somebody else. If you start taking an interest in people, recognizing that most people are kind and they're decent and they're interesting, they know things you don't, your whole world starts to look different. You see strangers sitting on the bus with you who are not like these scary, creepy people, but these are fellow human beings who have interesting things to tell you. And suddenly the world looks friendlier and nicer and kinder. And I've talked to so many people who have talked to people a lot who go through the same experience. It just changes the way you see people. You learn very quickly. You can get to know people, and your conversations are just much better. Your connections with people are just much better. You can share things with people that maybe you never would have before. And I do this all the time. I've lost when it comes to deep conversation, I've lost the cringe voice. I just don't have it anymore.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Conversations and connections that feel much better and fully turning off that cringe voice that makes us feel terrible in social interactions. I gotta admit, all that sounds pretty good. But Nick is a world expert on the science of connection. It makes sense that he can pull off deeper conversation without his cringe voice butting in. But would this same deep talk strategy work for someone who's been clinically diagnosed with an exceptionally loud cringe voice?

[Claire Eastham]

You're a loser. You're weird.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Could committing to deep conversation for an entire month work for a person who's spent decades being mortally terrified of small talk?

[Claire Eastham]

It was like, you've got 18 more days, Claire. You said you would do this, so we're gonna finish it.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Blogger Claire Eastham will return to tell us how her small talk ditching experiment went when the Happiness lab returns from the break. The best Summer pieces are the ones you end up wearing on repeat. For me, that means clothes that feel comfortable, versatile and somehow look right for every occasion. That's why I love Quince. They make elevated essentials using premium materials like European linen, organic cotton and washable silk without the traditional retail markup. This summer, I've been obsessed with Quince's washable stretch silk tiered maxi dress. It's made of silk with just enough stretch to actually move with you. It looks just as perfect at a posh summer dinner party as it does on a beach walk. Plus it has pockets, which I love. But that's just the beginning. Quince has denim that's broken in and soft, and their 14 karat gold jewelry. Think hoops and delicate chains are the kind of finishing touches that make a five minute outfit look completely intentional. Make your summer wardrobe feel easier. Go to quince.com Happiness for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com Happiness for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com Happiness when we last left mental health blogger Claire Eastham, she'd had an epiphany. Feeling tired of the pressure she regularly put on herself during social interactions, Claire decided to embark on an experiment. For one entire month, she would replace all small talk with the sort of weirder, more authentic questions that would make her grandmother Evelyn proud.

[Claire Eastham]

It's going to be selfishly something I'm interested in. Genuinely. If they ask me a small talk question, I will twist it without being rude.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Her experiment began on the night of a friend's art show, exactly the kind of social situation that Claire would usually dread.

[Claire Eastham]

Because it was an art show everyone was going in with, what do you think of the art? Obviously, and I don't know anything about art.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Ignoring her usual cringe voice, Claire launched into her first attempt to go a little deeper.

[Claire Eastham]

This woman said to me, what do you think of the art? And I said, remember your art teacher from school? Like I can remember mine. And then she suddenly just switched.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

The woman lit up as she talked about what she remembered from her elementary school art class. She then asked Claire about her own experiences. They laughed with one another as the conversation flowed. It was the first time that Claire had actually had fun at a social event. As she walked home from that art show, she realized that day one of her experiment had been a huge success.

[Claire Eastham]

We're gonna keep doing it because it's

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

lighting us up in the Weeks that followed, Claire found ways to shift all manner of shallow conversations into topics that went a bit deeper. When a barista asked her how she was enjoying the weather, she asked him what his favorite season was and why. Or take the guy who asked Claire what she'd been watching on TV lately.

[Claire Eastham]

He's talking about Killing Eve, the TV show. And then I was like, if you could kill someone and you could pretty much get away with it, like, what would be the plan? And he was just like, I've got a complete plan. I know what I would do. He's like, first of all, you need to get barrels of acid. And then he explained how he would get said acid, because he's like, no body, no crime. And it's the stomach that's the hardest bit to get rid of, so you need to be able to chop it up. It was really graphic, and I was like, wow.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Um, yeah, wow. But potential axe murderer interactions aside, Claire deeply enjoyed just how positively other people reacted when she shut down the usual shallow conversation.

[Claire Eastham]

God, the amount of people who said to me, oh, I don't like small talk either. This is brilliant. This is so refreshing.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Or take Tracey, the middle aged woman Claire decided to approach at her local cafe.

[Claire Eastham]

I'd seen her quite a few times, and I was like, she's really cool. She's really confident. So I never really approached her, but because it was for science, damn it.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Claire started by asking Tracey what she did for exercise. Tracy explained that she thought of herself as a member of the 5am Club. Those people who go for walks super early in the morning, even when it's still dark out.

[Claire Eastham]

I was like, so how do you keep yourself safe? And she's like, carry a rock. I was like, you being serious? She's like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I let people see that I'm carrying this rock like a brick. And then from there, she sort of told me how somebody had tried to get her in a van when she was in her 30s, and she beat the shit out of him. And I was just intrigued. And I ended up being honest with her about, I'm actually doing this experiment with small talk. And she said, I love it, and then explained that I'm quite a socially anxious person. She said, I'm not getting that vibe at all. And I love having these kind of conversations.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And that wouldn't be the last conversation that Claire had with Tracee.

[Claire Eastham]

We met up a couple days later and talked for two hours, like non stop over coffee, about everything from star signs to travel to intergalactic Stuff to past lives, to spirituality, to films. It was just very childlike. You know, when you have a sleepover when you're a teenager and you just like, talk anything and it's like addictive. It was. It was amazing.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Claire admits that not all her attempts at deep conversations went as well as the one with Tracey.

[Claire Eastham]

Not everyone's going to like you, which is a really basic thing to say, but it took me a really long time to accept that one. Not everybody's going to like you, and that's okay. It's about finding one person you connect with in the room. I'll take that.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Claire has also learned not to beat herself up when a conversation doesn't go as well as she expected.

[Claire Eastham]

It's all right. You don't have to continue talking to this person. You can politely leave now. I just think, oh, fair enough. And then on to the next.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Claire's experiment also taught her the same insight that psychologist Nick Epley shared earlier. That she was more in control of her everyday interactions than she thought, that she wasn't the only one paddling that conversational canoe, that she had the agency to choose where the discussion went and to steer interactions towards topics that felt more authentic.

[Claire Eastham]

It made it fun again. And for someone with social anxiety, it can feel like they're a bit of a minefield, and this just made fun.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Indeed, Claire had so much fun with her experiment that she wanted to try out some of her favorite deep questions with yours truly.

[Claire Eastham]

Because I'm getting a good vibe with you.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Oh, that's good.

[Claire Eastham]

If you could have any mythological creature as a pet, what would you go for?

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Oh, very interesting. Most of them are not domesticated, so they're gonna like make a mess of the house and, you know, poop and pee on the floor and stuff like that.

[Claire Eastham]

Yeah.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

So I might go for like a small one.

[Claire Eastham]

Like a fairy.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Like a fairy, Yeah. I feel like a fairy. You could throw a diaper on her and be all right.

[Claire Eastham]

Yeah.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

What's yours?

[Claire Eastham]

See, I have absolutely no self control, so dragon, obviously, and just deal with the chaos that comes with that and burn places to the ground and straight away that tells me more about your personality and it tells you more about mine.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yes.

[Claire Eastham]

Like, you're a very. You're very thoughtful, practical.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

You're a chaos agent who's totally fine with burning things down in her own home.

[Claire Eastham]

Absolutely no common sense. Yes.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Another of Claire's favorite get to know you questions is this. As a kid, did you ever have a crush on a cartoon character?

[Claire Eastham]

Robin Hood, The Disney Me too.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

The fox. Yes. Same, same.

[Claire Eastham]

You know, you're the first person who said that. Most people look at me like, no, no, I'm totally. Come on. He can fight and he's cheeky, and he's the one for me. If I could change species.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And secretly, I think my husband looks a little bit like the fox from Robin Hood.

[Claire Eastham]

Yeah.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

I have to admit, chatting with Claire about all these weird questions was really fun. And not just because I got to talk about my cartoon crush. I genuinely felt like those inquiries made us feel closer. Like they could be part of some new Fast Friends procedure, updated for the 21st century. In fact, I liked Claire's questions so much that I decided to try some of them out with the deep talk expert himself.

[Nick Epley]

These are not my approved questions.

[Claire Eastham]

No, no, no.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

But maybe. Maybe you'll put them in. Some of them are pretty good. This was one that I thought was very diagnostic. If you could have one mythological creature as a pet, which creature would you pick?

[Nick Epley]

Oh, my goodness. I would like the horse with the wings. That's Pegasus, right?

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

That's what my husband said.

[Nick Epley]

Yeah. Who doesn't want to fly? Are you kidding me? Horse is awesome. Flying horse, that's like, you know, an exponential increase in awesomeness of a horse. Totally.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

When I answered I hadn't thought of a horse. I was just thinking, like, most mythological creatures are, like, not domesticated.

[Nick Epley]

Oh, the scary cat.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Like, I was like, I just want, like, a small one. Like a fairy. Like, you put like a diaper on it.

[Claire Eastham]

Like, yeah, okay.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

I've known Nick for a long time, but Claire's questions helped me realize just how much I didn't know about Nick. All the personal things we hadn't yet had a chance to talk about. What was your art teacher like in school? Did you like art as a subject?

[Nick Epley]

No. I hated art. However, the best class I have ever taken in my entire life was a pottery class when I was in high school. The most consistently fun every day. The one I always looked forward to. It was the one I remember from high school. Really enjoying a lot.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Do you do pottery?

[Claire Eastham]

Now?

[Nick Epley]

You know, I don't. I don't. But I do do the woodworking equivalent of it, which is lathe. I do lathe work. I love that feeling. And so that has stuck with me.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Claire says that she often has a similar experience when going deeper with friends.

[Claire Eastham]

And this sounds a bit woo woo, but it felt like magic. We all know that we're all in our own heads, our own narratives. I don't think we mean to be self centered. It's just that's what we're focused on, right? Our own experience, our own perception of reality. So when you suddenly have that light up moment with someone, it feels like magic to me. I just keep saying lights me up because it really does.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

I asked Claire to share some final advice about bringing the light of deep conversation into our lives.

[Claire Eastham]

Start small. People will find their own feet. The most important thing is to start someone says, how are you? Just like, do you know what? I've just finished reading this book or I've just finished watching this thing. It's a gentle way to maneuver it. You can even own it. Depends on how brave you are. You could own it and say, I'm not good at small talk. Do you mind if I ask you about this instead? And you don't have to do it for 28 days. You could just do it for a day. See what it does to your mood. See if it raises your vibration a little bit.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

So that is today's happiness hot take. We all need to ditch the small talk and go a little deeper. I know, I know. Your cringe voice is probably saying that it'll be awkward or that people will think you're weird if you get too vulnerable or if you say, reveal that you long thought that your husband looks like a cartoon fox character. Believe me, I get it. But the science shows that our conversations and connections can feel much, much better if we channel our inner Evelyn isthems and commit to going a bit deeper. And if you need some ideas, Nick was kind enough to let me share his full list of deep questions. You can check them [e-mail] deepquestions that's drlaurysantos.com and if you want to learn even more tips for connecting deeply, be sure to check out Nick's new book, A Little More Social, which is on sale now. Next week we'll continue our happiness hot takes with one that's specifically for the guys in the audience. We'll see why dudes today need more romances.

[Nick Epley]

Like if I meet a dude and I like him and I want to sort of get to know him, I'm never going to say, where's my wife? Mike, you want to have a cup of coffee sometime? A guy is never going to do that.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

That's next week on the Happiness lab with me, Dr. Laurie Santos.

[Mandy Woodruff Santos]

This is Mandy Woodruff Santos from Brown Ambition. When you think about discovering small brands, what store pops into your mind? Well, it should be Walmart. Seriously, Walmart has thousands of small brands and they're all in one place. Just go online or in store. Discover and shop. It could not be easier. Every one of these brands has a real story and real people behind it. They're true American success stories and you can find them all at Walmart. Discover thousands of small [e-mail] today we

[Nick Epley]

learned how to love dogs from the dogs that loved us and waited for us to get home from school. They were the dogs that raised us. We returned the love with Pedigree Dog Food. It was good then and it's better now. Every bowl has 100% complete nutrition supporting six health essentials and now it includes Vitamin Good Bites, a nutrient boost your dog will love. Pedigree Good then, better now.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

This is an I Heart podcast. Guaranteed human.