How to Lead the Richest Life Possible

Summary

The Happiness Lab with Dr. Laurie Santos Episode: How to Lead the Richest Life Possible Release Date: February 17, 2025

In this insightful episode of The Happiness Lab with Dr. Laurie Santos, renowned psychologist Shige Oishi delves into the concept of living a "psychologically rich" life. Moving beyond traditional notions of happiness and meaning, Oishi introduces a multifaceted approach to personal fulfillment that emphasizes diversity of experiences and perspective shifts.

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1. Understanding Psychological Richness

[02:35] Shige Oishi:
"Positive Psychology, the field that studies the science of happiness has made a lot of progress in the last few decades. So much so that we've only been able to scratch the surface on all the cool studies out there."

Oishi begins by highlighting the advancements in positive psychology, recognizing that while happiness and kindness have been extensively studied, the benefits of stepping out of one's comfort zone remain underexplored. He introduces the idea that psychological richness encompasses a broader spectrum of experiences that contribute to a fulfilling life.

2. The Three Dimensions of a Good Life

[05:30] Shige Oishi:
"Like Oliver Sacks' life or Anthony Bourdain, we decided to call this psychologically rich life."

Drawing inspiration from notable figures like Oliver Sacks and Anthony Bourdain, Oishi outlines his framework for a well-lived life, which consists of three dimensions:

• Happiness: A sense of satisfaction and contentment with life.
• Meaning: Feeling that one's life has purpose and significance.
• Psychological Richness: A tapestry of diverse and novel experiences that lead to personal growth and expanded perspectives.

He posits that while happiness and meaning are crucial, psychological richness adds depth and texture to one's existence.

3. Personal Reflections: A Contrast of Lives

[06:16] Shige Oishi:
"My dad's life is life of stability, familiality, tradition, probably my life is complete opposite, constant move, move, move on the go."

Oishi shares a poignant comparison between his own life and that of his father. While his father led a stable and traditional life as a farmer, Oishi's path was characterized by constant movement and exploration. This personal anecdote underscores the essence of psychological richness—embracing change and seeking out new experiences.

4. The Happiness Trap and the Meaning Trap

[10:03] Shige Oishi:
"When you equate happiness with success, then when you're not happy, you're failing."

Oishi warns against the "happiness trap," where individuals tie their sense of success solely to their happiness. This can lead to detrimental effects, such as rumination and depression when one inevitably encounters life's ups and downs. Similarly, the "meaning trap" arises when people feel pressured to achieve grandiose levels of meaning, leading to potential feelings of inadequacy if they fall short.

5. Strategies for a Psychologically Rich Life

a. Embrace Playfulness

[22:32] Shige Oishi:
"Playfulness, you have to take a vacation from your obligations and responsibility of daily life."

Oishi emphasizes the importance of playfulness as a cornerstone of psychological richness. By taking breaks from daily responsibilities, individuals can cultivate a sense of childlike curiosity and fun, which fosters diverse experiences and personal growth.

b. Foster Serendipity and Spontaneity

[25:55] Shige Oishi:
"Serendipity and spontaneity are the springboard of interesting experiences."

Planning every aspect of life can stifle opportunities for novel experiences. Oishi advises allowing space for unexpected encounters and spontaneous activities, which can lead to meaningful and enriching moments.

c. Seek Psychological Richness by Proxy

[17:04] Shige Oishi:
"Visit a faraway place, witness a natural wonder, or hear about some amazing people just by reading a book, looking at a painting or watching a movie."

Engaging in aesthetic experiences, such as reading literature, visiting museums, or watching films, allows individuals to vicariously experience diverse lives and perspectives, thereby enhancing psychological richness without the need for physical travel.

d. Explore More of Yourself

[31:22] Shige Oishi:
"If you have a commute, then I think changing your commute is a really interesting way."

Oishi encourages deliberate exploration of one's environment and routines. Simple changes, like altering one's daily commute or trying new hobbies, can introduce novelty and foster personal growth.

e. Turn Adversity into Psychological Richness

[32:43] Shige Oishi:
"Putting yourself out there has its risks. There will be disappointments and setbacks, but those challenges ultimately add to our life story and help us grow."

Adversity, while challenging, can be reframed as opportunities for growth and enrichment. By finding meaning in difficult experiences, individuals can add depth to their life narratives and enhance psychological richness.

6. Implementing the Tips: Practical Advice

[38:19] Shige Oishi:
"If you're afraid of trying something new, actually just go back to your favorite song or favorite movie and find something new from the familiar."

For those feeling overwhelmed by the prospect of change, Oishi suggests starting with familiar activities and digging deeper to uncover new layers. This approach makes the journey towards psychological richness more manageable and less intimidating.

7. Final Thoughts: Embracing a Rich Life

[37:55] Shige Oishi:
"Uncertainty and unpredictability are part of life and we should embrace it."

Oishi concludes by advocating for an embrace of life's inherent uncertainties. By accepting and engaging with the unpredictable, individuals open themselves up to a wealth of experiences that contribute to a psychologically rich and fulfilling life.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Shige Oishi on Psychological Richness:
  "A psychologically rich life is filled with diverse interesting experiences and often comes with a change in perspective."
  [17:04]

• On the Happiness Trap:
  "When you equate happiness with success, then when you're not happy, you're failing."
  [10:03]

• On Playfulness:
  "Playfulness, you have to take a vacation from your obligations and responsibility of daily life."
  [22:32]

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Conclusion

In "How to Lead the Richest Life Possible," Dr. Laurie Santos and Shige Oishi expand the conversation on well-being by introducing the concept of psychological richness. Through a blend of personal anecdotes, empirical studies, and practical strategies, they offer listeners a comprehensive guide to enriching their lives beyond mere happiness and meaning. Embracing playfulness, spontaneity, diverse experiences, personal exploration, and learning from adversity are highlighted as key components to achieving a deeply fulfilling and richly textured existence.

For those eager to enhance their lives with greater depth and variety, this episode serves as an invaluable roadmap towards psychological richness.

Transcript

[Ben Walter]

The Unshakeables podcast is kicking off season two with an episode you won't want to miss. Join host Ben Walter, CEO of Chase for Business, as he welcomes a very special Guest, chairman and CEO of JPMorgan Chase, Jamie Dimon. Hear about the challenges facing small businesses and some of the oh moments Jamie has overcome. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. Chase Mobile app is available for select mobile devices. Message and data rates May apply. Chase JPMorgan Chase Bank NA Member FDIC Copyright 2025 JP Morgan Chase & Co.

[Laurie Santos]

The Happiness Lab is proudly sponsored by Amica Insurance. As Amica says, empathy is our best policy. That's why they'll go above and beyond to tailor your insurance coverage to best fit your needs. Whether you're on the road, at home or traveling along life's journey, their friendly and knowledgeable representatives will work with you to ensure you have the right coverage in place. Amica will provide you with peace of mind. Go to amica.com and get a quote today Is your schedule crazy? Just want some me time? Everyone could use a sanctuary from stress. Why not turn your bedroom into the space to decompress with the IKEA selection of comfortable beds, pillows, decor, mood lighting, and so much more. Every time you step in there, it's nothing but me time. I mean, you time sounds like a dream, right? IKEA is here to make your me time dreams come true. Visit them in store or at ikea-usa.com sleep to create a comfy, blissful bedroom today. Pushkin.

[Shige Oishi]

Positive Psychology, the field that studies the science of happiness has made a lot of progress in the last few decades. So much so that we've only been able to scratch the surface on all the cool studies out there. Even in the hundreds of episodes I've hosted. In the five years of this show, we've spent time looking at the positive effects of treating yourself better and being kind to others. But we haven't talked as much about the happiness boost we can get from getting out of our comfort zones and taking on unfamiliar or even uncomfortable things. Some people seem to love pushing these boundaries. You know the type, someone who treks across an entire continent, sets up a wildlife sanctuary, patents some new invention and and drops everything to become a novelist. These people can seem larger than life, but they do exist. And one expert in well being science thinks we should pay more attention to them.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

So thank you so much for having me. I'm sorry, I'm just running around.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Oh no, that's fine. Yeah, I really enjoyed the new book.

[Shige Oishi]

Oh thank you Shige Oishi teaches psychology at the University of Chicago. And he's argued that past measures of happiness have missed something really important, what he calls the psychologically rich life. What is psychological richness? Well, Shige explains this concept in his new book, Life in three How Curiosity, Exploration and Experience Make a Fuller, Better Life. Shige's book explains that even if we can't all become globetrotting inventor poets who hang out with movie stars, we can make some modest changes to mix up our lives a bit. So get ready to hear his strategies as Shige teaches us how to live the richest life possible. Shige first began thinking about psychological richness during about of mid career Self reflection.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

I studied happiness since 1995. At the time there were very, very few labs studying happiness. And we did all kinds of studies about who is happy, what makes people happy. And in 2015, you know, at the time I already had tenure. I was full professor at the University of Virginia. And it just hit me that, oh my gosh, I've been studying happiness for 20 years. You know, what did we learn and what was the biggest debate in the field? And I have to say I was really sort of sad to realize that.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

We'Ve been debating this.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Which one is more important? Personal happiness, to make yourself happy, maybe even at the expense of others sometimes.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Or to make others happy even at.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

The expense of oneself. In the end, the result of this.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

20 years debate was like, of course both are important. Happiness and meaning.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

And I was like, wow, did I.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Waste my 20 years pursuing this question? But then the next question came up.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Am I happy with my life? And I was pretty happy with my wife and kids.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

And I found my life to be pretty meaningful.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

I mean, my social psych class was, was very popular. I played baseball with my kids. I felt like I have some roles in this society.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

But then when I asked this question.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Of if I'm happy and find my life to be meaningful, is it the complete life? And at that point I couldn't say yes. So when the semester started, I just asked students, what do you think? If you have happiness and meaning, is it the complete life? And a half of them were like.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Of course, don't be so greedy.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

I mean, like, that's a lot.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

But then the other half was like, yeah, maybe something is missing. And we started to look at those.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Missing parts and also the reverse, that.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Somebody who doesn't feel their life is happy or meaningful, but maybe still leading good life. And in the end we were able to find a lot of examples of that.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Like Oliver Sacks life or Anthony Bourdain. We decided to call this psychologically rich life. So my book is entitled Life in three Dimensions.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

So we got the first dimension, which.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Is happiness, and the second dimension, which is a meaningful life.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

And the third dimension, we think is.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

A psychologically rich life. And essentially, even if you don't have happiness or meaning, perhaps there is a thought of good life.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

And if you have happiness and meaning.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Then richness will add something and you got it all. You live in three dimension. So that's the basic trends.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

I love that. And so in the book, you started with this comparison between your life and your dad's life. I don't know if you're comfortable sharing that story.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Yeah, so my dad is 90 years old.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

He was born and raised in this small town in southern island of Kyushu.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Like his father, grandfather, great grandfathers and older ancestors, he essentially became a full time farmer when he was 15.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

And he lived his life in the.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Same town, surrounded by the same people he grew up with. He got married when he was 27. He still lived with my mom.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

And he loved life on the farm. He loves hot springs.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

So he goes to hot springs with.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

His wife and family and friends and it's a really cozy life. And meanwhile, I was born to the.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Same family, obviously, so I was expected to take over the farm.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

But from early on, I showed no interest in farming.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Indeed, I hated it. So I knew from early on I gotta get out of here. As soon as I graduated from high school, I left my hometown for Tokyo.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Which is like 700 miles away.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

So very, very few people from my high school went to Tokyo.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

So my dad and mom, like when.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

They said, yeah, you can go to.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

College, I think they were expecting me.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

To stay in that region because there are a lot of good colleges there too.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

But just I left as far as.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

As quickly as I can. After graduating from college, I got my first job in Minnesota, moved to Virginia, moved to New York City, went back.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

To Virginia and move again to Chicago.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

So, you know, if my dad's life is life of stability, familiality, tradition, probably my life is complete, opposite, constant. Move, move, move on the go. You know, sometimes I really feel like.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Wow, why did I do this?

[Unknown Speaker 1]

You know, like I could have just stayed there, have sake every night, chat with my old friends. And indeed, I think that's a good life. My dad doesn't have much regret. He is very content. But yeah, it is very, very, very different.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

So I love that story because it so nicely illustrates the sort of distinction of A psychologically rich life. But I want to start by unpacking the sort of first two ideas of, like, happiness that we've sort of had so far. The first is this idea of happiness maybe just going to give me a sense of what we mean by happiness or scholars mean by this.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Right. So we don't mean happiness by the.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Just a mood, temporary mood, but it is really about whether you are happy.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

About your life, how it's going, how it has turned out. So it's very similar to a sense of satisfaction with your life. And it turned out that a lot of factors that are associated with happiness are something to do with the stable life. So stable relationship is the number one predictor of happy life. So close relationship with your friend, family, marital satisfaction. So partner satisfaction is extremely important. And more and more the financial security stability is very, very important.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

So this is kind of interesting.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Back in 1995, correlation between household income and happiness, a life satisfaction was like 0.15, which is not that strong. But we looked at historically, last 15 years or so from the 1970s, and.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

We clearly see the correlation going up.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

So financial stability is very, very important. That actually means that a lot of people are financially struggling.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

A lot of people have relationship issues.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

So happiness has become sort of out of reach for them.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

So that's another reason why I thought maybe there is another way to conceptualize.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

A good life that doesn't rely on this sort of life of stability and comfort.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

You've also argued that we sometimes face what you've called the happiness trap, that when we focus on certain aspects of happiness, we get it wrong. What are the parts of this happiness trap?

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Yeah, I think happiness trap is particularly salient phenomena in the United States. So when you ask Americans, what do.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

You associate when you hear the word.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Happiness, People often talk about success or reward for all hard work.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

So when you equate happiness with success, then when you're not happy, you're failing.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

And this is really unfortunate. And this is something as a cultural psychologist I found very puzzling too.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

When I came to United States, I.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Asked, friend, how are you?

[Unknown Speaker 3]

And everybody said, great.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

In Japan, when somebody say, how are you? I say, okay, so? So, and the conversation goes, yeah, me too. We commiserate.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

And that's the cultural norm. So there is no pressure to be.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Happy, Especially when you're not feeling happy, you can say, I'm not happy. But in the States, especially college students, maybe elite college students in particular, at.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Your institution like Yale, I think there's tremendous pressure to feel happy. And What I mean by happiness trap.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Is that people think that because happiness is an indicator of success, I shouldn't be feeling these negative emotions. And that's the really the difficult and dangerous part of this trap. Stuff happens to everyone, right? Bad events happen to the good people.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

And when things happen, if you don't.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Have this pressure to feel happy, you.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Are just much more naturally accepting of.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

This particular minor bump in the world.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Whereas if you feel like you have to be perfect, you have to be.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Successful, you have to be happy all.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

The time, then you really ruminate these little failures.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

And rumination, of course, is a precursor to depression. So that's what I mean by happiness trap.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

So that suggests that kind of solely going for this idea of happiness and sort of feeling good in your life doesn't work. But you've also argued that seeking meaning might not go as smoothly as we often assume either, that there might be some challenges with seeking out a meaningful life too. What do you mean?

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

So any graduation speech you hear is like, be great, go out there and change the world. You guys are so smart. Which is true. But when you think about somebody who changed the world, Martin Luther King Jr. Rosa Park, Gandhi.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Sure.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Can I do that?

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Probably not.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

I think when we think about the meaningful life, we often think about somebody.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Who made a huge difference.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

And I think that will set yourself up for the failure that you are not leading a meaningful life.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

So that's one part.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

But the other part is that if.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

You look at the people who are.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Actually reporting that they are leading a meaningful life, they are not making that kind of differences.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

They are really focusing on their neighborhood.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Their churches and things that is small. And they can go to soup kitchen every Thursday and serve.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

And of course you do that over the years, then you make a difference.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

In your communities, which has no bad consequences at all. Just that the study sometimes find that.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

The people who say their life is.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Meaningful, they tend also to say that they endorse right wing authoritarianism, not just the political conservatism. That type of right wing authoritarianism comes with a very small in group whom you take care very carefully, but sometimes show huge antagonism against the outgroup members. So when I say there is a meaning trap, one is that it seems so grand that it seems impossible to achieve.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

But the second one is actually we.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Tend to go too narrow and focus on the well being of the close others. But we often neglect outgroup members. So that could be potentially dangerous.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

So there's some danger in seeking out happiness. There's some danger in seeking out a life of meaning, if you kind of get it wrong, One of the studies you point to, which I think is fun, is sort of asking subjects about this psychologically rich life.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

So early on, when we just started psychological richness research, we really wanted to see like what might be psychologically rich event. So to a group of students I ask, okay, what did you do over the weekend? What made you happy? And then they say things like, yeah, I went to my favorite restaurant. Yeah, sure, going to a favorite restaurant, you know exactly what to order. That's the predictable, reliable joy and happiness. So I asked then what was the meaningful event?

[Unknown Speaker 3]

And a lot of people say, oh.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

I went to church and it felt meaningful. And some said I helped out my.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Friends who was just struggling writing the paper. Which makes sense because making other people.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Happy is a important part of the meaningful. So I ask then, what was the events where you felt psychologically rich? What I mean by psychological rich here is that it might not have been happy event or meaningful event per se.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

But something different, something unusual, something novel.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

One person, Rachel, said there was this guy typing something half naked. And I've never seen a guy typing in public area like shirtless.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

And the strange thing was it wasn't hot. He wasn't well built, so he wasn't.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Showing off his upper body or anything. And that was kind of interesting.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

She said, okay, so there was a.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Novelty, but I thought that's not really rich. And then another person said, oh, I went to professional wrestling match.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

And she was so surprised that there.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Are so many kids.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

And then later she learned that WWE.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Does a lot of anti bullying campaign and for them these sort of ridiculous looking pro wrestler is actually genuinely their role model hero.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

And then she went through this up.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

And down, you know, emotions and came.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Back with totally different view of professional wrestling. They thought that was sort of the.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Working class thing to do.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

And they went and then they were really moved.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

And then their stereotypical view of the.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Pro wrestlers completely got shattered.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

So I thought, okay, this is not just a novel experience, but pretty complex, a lot of different emotions and also.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Came back with a different perspective.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

So I think in order for some event to be psychologically rich, it has.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

To be not just interesting, but it has to come with some kind of change and perspective change in particular.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

So the shirtless guy is not really rich because it didn't change the way you view the world at all. Whereas the latter case is really just wow, I didn't expect this. And I need to change my view about these.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Can you Kind of give me a definition of this sort of third way of experiencing life.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Yeah, yeah. We define psychologically rich life as a.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Life filled with diverse interesting experiences.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

And that often come with the change in perspective. So I often contrast with the materially rich life.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Lots of cash, a lot of assets, a lot of things.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

That's the material richness. What about the psychological richness? It is all about accumulation of interesting experiences or stories that you can tell. So in your psychological bank, you have a lot of interesting experiences and stories.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

To tell to others.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Whereas if this person doesn't have that many interesting stories to tell, then even if their bank account is huge, maybe psychologically speaking, they're impoverished.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

So how common is living a psychologically rich life? If I recall, you studied this in a pretty clever way.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Yeah, I mean, that was the question then if nobody leads psychologically rich life, what are we studying? So we were a little bit worried. So in one study we just decided to look at the New York Times obituaries. Essentially. I love reading obituaries. And obituary I think is a really great summary of how somebody lived their lives. You know, New York Times always have.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Three or four obituaries every day.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

So I hired three research assistants and their assignment was read New York Times obituary every day and then rate each person's life in terms of happiness, meaning and psychological richness. And they don't know what I'm trying to look at. I mean, blind to hypothesis. So in the end we figured out Roughly there were 32% essentially of the people rated as somebody who led a happy life, another 32 led a meaningful life.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

And then the 15 of them led.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

A psychologically rich life. Some people led happy end, a meaningful life. Some people led happy end the psychologically rich.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

And two of them got it all.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

They were rated as happy, meaningful and psychologically rich life. So we did this in Charlottesville. Local newspaper Daily Progress, the number of people who were rated to have led the rich life went down to about.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

5%, which could be due to like.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

New York Times people are sort of very famous people, prominent people. They had more dramatic life than the ordinary central Virginians.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Maybe.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

But another possibility was that New York Times or visually is a lot more detailed, whereas the local one is very factual and small. So it could be just information. So we did the third study in Singapore.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

And in Singapore something like 35% of.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Them are rated as leading psychological rich life. But I'm pretty confident that non trivial number of people do lead psychological rich life.

[Shige Oishi]

If you're not currently among that non trivial number of people but want to live more richly.

[Laurie Santos]

Shige will guide you with his top.

[Shige Oishi]

Tips right after the break.

[Ben Walter]

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[Laurie Santos]

The holidays can be a lot.

[Shige Oishi]

That's why I like to spend the.

[Laurie Santos]

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[Shige Oishi]

Psychologist Shige Iwichi has argued that there's something many of us have missed in our quest to live a happier life. We need to find a bit more psychological richness. But what if you listened to the first part of this episode and thought, hey, my life isn't nearly as rich.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

As it could be.

[Shige Oishi]

What should you do about it?

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Personally, I think the best way is.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

To find the open friend. The friend who will bring you to new experiences.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

So imagine if your friend is Samantha from Sex and the City. Then you don't have to have an openness to experience. She'll just drag you to interesting experiences.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

And if you are agreeable person, then whenever your friends say, hey Lori, do you want to try this new restaurant?

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Do you want to go to a hike? And you just say, okay. And then you just try. You might not do it yourself, but you know if somebody else is doing, you do it. But if you don't have friends like that, then, I mean, there are other options. For instance, I think the biggest one is be like playful. Playfulness is I think a huge part of leading a psychologically rich life. Actually, as an adult, I think it's.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Quite hard to be playful.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Playfulness, you have to take a vacation from your obligations and responsibility of daily life, from social and economic reality. And that's when you can be playful and lead the rich life.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

You've also argued that playfulness can help us too in ways we don't expect. For example, you've argued that playfulness can help protect us from burnout. What are some studies that tell us that?

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Yeah, I mean there is this amazing meta analysis about athletic performance among these super elite athletes. So we are talking about Olympic level athletes and you know, some people start out pretty early and specialize in one sport, whereas other people play multiple sports before specializing.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

And the really interesting finding from there.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Is that if you look at the junior level competitions, then the performance is really predicted by how early somebody specialized. But when you look at the final Olympic level competition performance, then it's people who play multiple sports and specialize later in life they do better. And this playfulness is that world class athlete who play some pickup games and some other sport for fun. I mean, those are the people who tend not to burn out and tend to do better. And the crazy thing is that there.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Is a replication in the scientific achievement as well.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

So highest German scientific award is Leibniz award and some of them went on to win Nobel prize.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

So German researcher looked at the difference.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Between eventual Nobel Prize winners versus Leibniz winners.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

And this is absolutely my favorite finding.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

That Leibniz winners became full professor much earlier than the Nobel Prize winner. The Nobel Prize winners actually studied multiple things before and so it took them.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Much longer to Get a full professorship. But eventually they made a major discovery.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

So I think a playfulness, even in a professional arena is really important because you don't want to be too specialized too early. Keep your curiosity wide open because when you just specialize, what you're doing is okay. This information is irrelevant for me. So don't pay attention.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Whereas if you are open, then you're.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Just, oh, that's kind of interesting. And sometimes they help.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

So that's kind of embracing playfulness. Your second tip I think is very related is that we need to embrace serendipity and spontaneity.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

What do you mean by serendipity there?

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Yeah, so serendipity and the spontaneity I think is the springboard of interesting experiences. And if you think about like all the interesting experiences you had, probably those are not the things you planned six months in advance. In graduate school, for instance, we didn't.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Have that many required courses, so we.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Had a lot of time. So I would just stop by my lab mate office, let's go have coffee, and we talk something random and interesting.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

And there is some discovery of certain things.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

So very interesting. And when I got a job at the University of Minnesota, I really wanted to do the same thing. So I knocked on the door, Bob Kruger, fellow assistant professor. And I said, hey Bob, do you.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Have time for coffee?

[Unknown Speaker 1]

And I looked through his schedule and said, no. What about in two weeks we can all have this cup of coffee spontaneously. And that's what it means to be a professor. Bob became like so successful. He's very productive. I think he wrote already 300 articles. So you see how that works. But at the same time, in terms of this spontaneous random conversations or experiences, when you just schedule and plan everything, you really are depriving from these random things that happen. Random encountering, random conversation, random reading. So over scheduled life that we all live right now is really not great for psychological richness.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

This is something I worry a lot about in my elite college students that I work with because, you know, they want to over schedule everything. You know, it's from early in high school, they've already planned what job they want. Some students are like, well, I definitely want to get married by the time I'm 27. Like they want to have everything planned out. And I really worry that they might be leaving some important aspects of their well being kind of uncared for because they haven't given themselves the space to, to try new things out.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Exactly.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

That's that, that's the space. And I think that's the pressure. They feel like they have to succeed. They have to perform, and they have to perform at the highest level all the time. And it's like academic athletes, almost like just practice, practice, practice every day. And I think that is really not healthy.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

You should really have plenty of time for play. College is the best time to be spontaneous. Once you go out of college, your friends don't live around the corner. Everybody is too busy to just have spontaneous meeting and outing.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

But you've argued that we really, even as adults, need to find more time to be able to. Any advice for how to build that serendipity?

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Well, I think you have to be.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

A little bit pushy.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Just text somebody and just accept a lot of rejections. You know, they cannot do it. Okay, next. It is really hard when everybody is so overbooked.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

But we should.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

We should try to be spontaneous.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

So tip number three that you've talked a lot about is something that we've mentioned before on the Happiness Lab. If we want to live a psychologically rich life, we need to find more awe. Talk about how awe plays into psychological richness.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Yeah, I think awe is really this sense of you are small and the world is so large and just sort of transcending kind of sense, and then the merging between you and the nature or the arts. And a lot of aesthetic experiences that.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

We have when we go to museum.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

When we go watch movie, read literature and poems, it's not always all, but there is this aesthetic experiences that is very different from our everyday life. So if you read Kazuo Ishiguro's the Remains of the Day, then you are transported into this world of British Lord, Lord Darlington in Darlington hall with butlers and 20 some staff members and, you.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Know, in the 1930s and those kinds.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Of immersions and the mental transportation, I think is really, really important because look.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

At our lives, right? We are privileged to travel anywhere we want.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

But every day we get up, eat.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Breakfast, usually just meet the same people.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Respond, emails, et cetera, et cetera.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

So every day, what we can firsthand is pretty limited. Whereas in a matter of one hour.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

If you read these novels or watch movie, two hours or whatever, you can really experience somebody else's life and go through really dramatic emotional experiences vicariously. So for the matter of a few.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Hours, you often go through somebody's entire life. And the guy who owns this bookstore.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

In Morocco said he read 4,000 books. So he says he lived 4,000 lives. And that's exactly how I feel about.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

These aesthetic experiences that really Expand your.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Horizons and allow you to go through and experience something that you can never maybe very hard to experience in person.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And so that's kind of finding more awe through aesthetic experiences in other people's lives. But your tip number four argues that we should also explore more ourselves.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Sure.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

That we should be seeking out new experiences and doing more atypical things.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Sure.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Any ideas for how to fit that in in a busy life?

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

So I think that if you have commute, then I think the changing your commute is really interesting way. I mean, if you're driving, just drive through different town, different neighborhood. If you're taking train, get off in between and explore. So I think there are a lot of things you can do to do new things, even if you're pretty packed in, you know, schedules. And I, you know, try to enjoy, for instance, getting lost in a new town. You know, it's a little bit scary, but, you know, I always tell myself, well, okay, eventually this will be a psychologically rich experience. Of course, when you get lost, you have to worry, anxious and so forth, but most of the time it will work out. And those are the things, sort of.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Like you let yourself go, go with the flow. Those attitudes and mindset helps a lot.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

In terms of deviating from the real routines and the schedules. And of course, we cannot deviate all the time, but when there's a chance to be able to deviate, just let.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Yourself go and deviate.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

That's what I want everybody to do, if possible.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And it's also a nice reminder of your final tip, which is that we can experience more psychological richness by turning adversity into a psychological rich experience, into a fun story.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Right.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Explain why our stories are more under our control.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Because I grew up in Japan, and Japan, of course, has a lot of.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Natural disasters, earthquake, tsunami, and things like that. I studied happiness and well being of these earthquake survivors.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

And my sabbatical in 2013, I spent.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

One year in Kobe, Japan.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

That's where there was a huge earthquake in 1995. Over 6,000 people died.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

That was just devastating. And a sad finding was that in.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

2011, even 16 years after the earthquake, those Covid residents who lost their house were still reporting significantly lower level of life satisfaction. They report more physical symptoms, you know, pain than those Covid residents who did not lose their house. So I thought that was really sad because we thought, you know, time heals everything.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

But this case, time did not heal everything. But then we looked at the value orientations of these earthquake survivors, and we.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Realized that the people who went through.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Earthquake, they really become more pro social, altruistic.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

They don't care about their own accomplishment as much as other Japanese who did not experience earthquake. So definitely there's change. After all, when you are in earthquake, you really see a lot of things that you never imagined before.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Neighbors who are not particularly friendly will come out and try to save you and save your dog. And you see a lot of different side of people. So those people, survivors all talk about.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Sort of the regained sense of confidence in humanity even. And I think that's the contributing factor to psychological richness. Even if the earthquake doesn't add to life satisfaction, obviously that detract from life satisfactions.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

And meaning is also very hard to gain from earthquake because this is a.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Random act of the mother nature. So people often struggle to find the meaning after earthquake. But people have used this earthquake as.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

A springboard for change and growth and learning.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

And I think there are a lot.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Of signs that some adversity could be.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

A source for psychologically rich life.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Any suggestions for changing maybe some of our less than earthquake level adversity into psychologically rich life?

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

So we ask college students, just think.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

About all last year and what kind of traumatic event, negative event happened and.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Did you learn anything from this traumatic event? Interestingly, this was random assignment. They later reported that, yeah, actually trauma made them change the way they view the world and they view themselves. And the more perspective change they recorded.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

The higher level of psychological richness they reported as well. And interestingly, the more perspective change they reported, less happy they became. So the perspective change is not great for happiness, but that tend to add psychological richness. So it doesn't have to be a huge trauma, you know, earthquake, tsunami type situation, but even, you know, everyday failures and negative events, if you can construe.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Something positive or something that you learned.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

From the events that could add the texture to your life and enrich your life.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And it does seem like that texture isn't always psychologically positive. You've talked about even things like exploring and getting lost or having an experience that maybe challenges you and maybe changes some of your assumptions. It sounds like the big message of a psychologically rich life is like, it might be a little harder than you expect, but the rewards might be bigger than you expect.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Yeah, yeah, definitely. This is not something easy always and.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Not always positive, obviously.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

But I think the power of psychological rich life or the mindset to try to maximize richness is that you're not afraid of negative emotions or negative events.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Stuff happens. Try to accept those. Try to learn from it.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

And as long as you have that attitude, you don't get into these ruminations and depressions. And it is when you really try to be perfect and try to be super successful and always happy that these.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Little bumps really hurts you.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

So I am really trying to say that richness is not for everybody, for sure. But when you have richness mindset, I.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Think you're less afraid of failures and.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Negative events and so forth. And I think you become a little more adventurous and actually experience something that you wouldn't thought you would ever experience.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

And you know, that really could change.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

You in the course of your life. So I think uncertainty and unpredictability are part of life and we should embrace it.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

And to the extent that you embrace.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

It, you're maximizing the possibility of adding the richness to your life.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

I think sometimes when people look at the possibility of making their life more exciting, exploring more, getting curious. Honestly, some of the people I know feel trapped, right? They feel incredibly busy. There's this whole host of obligations. It feels like they're kind of really comfortable in their life. It might feel scary to break out of it. Any advice for folks who might be having an experience like that where it feels really hard to go after some of these things that might make their life psychologically rich?

[Unknown Speaker 1]

I mean, I totally get that because by nature I really like familiality too. But I think the one way, if you are afraid of doing completely brand new thing, and I think one thing.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

I can suggest is really stick with what you like.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

If you love Beatles, you can keep.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Listening to Beatles, but try to find.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Something new about the same song you.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Are listening for all these years.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

And the same thing with the literature, if you love Mrs. Dalloway, you can read like three times, four times, and.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

You find always something new. So if you're afraid of trying something new, actually just going back to your.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Favorite movie or favorite song and favorite bands and things like that, you can actually finding something new from the familiar. My favorite story here is I have.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Been married with my wife for a long time.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

I've known her like 20 years. And around 2010, I said we should buy some painting. And then she goes, okay, I can paint. And it's like, what?

[Unknown Speaker 3]

I didn't know that you can paint.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

And then boy, she can paint. She's just like, paint, paint, paint. Now it's just full of her painting.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

So sometimes you just find something new from very familiar person. If you just have opportunity to ask some new questions or chance to talk about some topic that you never talked.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

About with the same old friends, you can actually enrich your life by digging deeper with your familiar objects and person as well. If you are afraid of sort of going all the way out for more.

[Shige Oishi]

Big and small steps towards leading a psychologically rich life, you should really check out Shige's new book, Life in three How Curiosity, Exploration and Experience Make a Fuller, Better Life. But let's recap the how to tips.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

We'Ve heard so far.

[Shige Oishi]

Tip number one Find ways to be more playful, Take a little break from your responsibilities and try to cultivate a childlike curiosity and sense of Fun. Tip number 2 Be more open to the random. It's comforting to schedule everything in life, but try to find more moments of serendipity. It could be as simple as stopping by to chat with a coworker. The third tip is to experience psychological richness by proxy. You can visit a faraway place, witness a natural wonder, or hear about some amazing people just by reading a book, looking at a painting or watching a movie. Tip number four is to explore. We can easily get in the habit of doing the same things day in, day out, so throw some variety into the mix, even if that's turning left out your front door instead of right. And Shige's final tip is to see the richness in adversity. Putting yourself out there has its risks. There will be disappointments and setbacks, but those challenges ultimately add to our life story and help us grow. That's it for a psychologically rich life. But our how to season isn't over yet. Our next installment tackles what changes you should make to motivate and elevate the people around you. In short, we'll be exploring how to become an instructor inspiring person. That's all next time on the Happiness lab with me, Dr. Laurie Santos.

[Laurie Santos]

Research shows that happiness is all about savoring the little moments. And one of my favorites these days is the warm aroma of a fresh coffee. And that's why I choose Starbucks. My order is usually a decaf Americano with oat milk. Starbucks isn't just about finding the perfect coffee. They're about connection, community and social rituals. Catching up with a friend or hunkering down with your laptop. Order your drink for here and enjoy it in a mug or glass. And if you like non dairy milk.

[Shige Oishi]

Like I do, you can get it.

[Laurie Santos]

At no extra charge. Stay a while at your next Starbucks. Visit with Lucile Packard Children's Hospital Stanford at the Center Stanford Medicine Children's Health is ranked as one of the top children's hospitals in in the nation by U.S. news & World Report as one of the few health care systems in the country dedicated exclusively to pediatric and obstetric care, they have an unwavering commitment to caring for babies, kids and expectant mothers. Their exceptional care teams have developed treatments that have led to successful outcomes for many children with complex cases that could not be resolved elsewhere. Learn [e-mail] this podcast is supported by.

[Ben Walter]

BetterHelp, offering licensed therapists you can connect.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

With via video phone or chat. Here's BetterHelp head of clinical operations Hes Yu Jo discussing who can benefit from.

[G]

Therapy I think a lot of people think that you're supposed to be going to therapy once you're like having panic attacks every day. But before you get to that point, I think once you start even noticing that you feel a little bit off and you can't maintain this harmony that you once had in relationships, that could be a sign that maybe you want to go talk to somebody. There's always a benefit in talking to someone because we can all benefit from improved insight about ourselves and who we are and how we behave with other people. So if you're human, that's like a good indicator that you could benefit from talking to somebody.

[Ben Walter]

Find out if therapy is right for you. Visit betterhelp.com today. That's betterhelp.com.