The Joy of Not Being Dead (with Ryan Holiday on The Daily Stoic)

Summary

Summary of "The Joy of Not Being Dead" Episode on The Happiness Lab with Dr. Laurie Santos

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Episode Information:

• Title: The Joy of Not Being Dead (with Ryan Holiday on The Daily Stoic)
• Host: Pushkin Industries featuring Dr. Laurie Santos
• Guest: Ryan Holiday
• Release Date: August 4, 2025

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Introduction: In this compelling episode of The Happiness Lab with Dr. Laurie Santos, renowned Yale professor Dr. Laurie Santos engages in an insightful conversation with Ryan Holiday, the author of The Daily Stoic. Together, they delve into the profound Stoic philosophy and its applications in modern life, particularly focusing on the concepts of mortality, emotional regulation, and finding happiness amidst life's inevitable challenges.

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1. Exploring Mortality and Memento Mori Dr. Santos introduces the concept of Memento Mori—a Stoic practice encouraging the remembrance of one's mortality to enhance present-moment appreciation.

• Notable Quote:
  Dr. Laurie Santos (04:40): “It's useful to remember, like, you know... the idea of memento mori, which is a common phrase. I actually have my ring has memento mori on it, which is morbid, right? I'm going to die. I'm not going to be here.”

Ryan Holiday adds that contemplating mortality isn’t meant to be daunting but rather serves as a tool to live more fully.

• Notable Quote:
  Ryan Holiday (10:09): “But, yeah, isn't it interesting how much social science studies confirm just hypotheses or arguments from ancient philosophy that they were just making up 2000 years ago or 2500 years.”

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2. The Second Arrow: Managing Emotional Reactions The discussion transitions to the Second Arrow metaphor from Buddhist philosophy, illustrating how our reactions to life’s hardships can exacerbate suffering.

• Notable Quote:
  Dr. Laurie Santos (09:26): “There's research showing... that recognizing that you can't take anything for granted... have to pay attention now... this can psychologically reset our reference point.”

Ryan elaborates on how the second arrow—our emotional response—can intensify distress beyond the original event.

• Notable Quote:
  Ryan Holiday (12:02): “So there's something about memento mori for yourself. You just be like, yeah, of course I'm going to die. I always knew this, hopefully. But it's when...”

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3. Balancing Negative Visualization and Optimism Dr. Santos and Holiday examine the delicate balance between negative visualization (a Stoic practice) and excessive optimism, highlighting research that shows both have their benefits and pitfalls.

• Notable Quote:
  Dr. Laurie Santos (17:44): “So she has these studies where... the more you fantasize about it, the less you actually go to the gym.”

They discuss how excessive positive fantasizing can sometimes reduce motivation to act, contrasting it with strategic negative visualization that prepares individuals without overwhelming them.

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4. Practical Applications of Stoic Philosophy The conversation moves to practical strategies for applying Stoic principles in daily life, such as adjusting one’s reference points to handle unforeseen challenges better.

• Notable Quote:
  Dr. Laurie Santos (13:15): “And this is, I think, Marcus Aurelius's insight. Right. Like, every morning you should wake up and think, I might, you know, get shunned. I might lose my job...”

They emphasize the importance of mental flexibility and preparedness, allowing individuals to navigate life’s unpredictabilities with resilience.

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5. The Impact of Information Overload Addressing modern challenges, Dr. Santos and Holiday discuss the phenomenon of information overload and its effects on emotional well-being, advocating for mindful consumption of information.

• Notable Quote:
  Ryan Holiday (54:19): “Like, how do you not let that make you miserable? How do you not like the Stoics, talk about how the best revenge is to not be like that?”

They propose strategies such as selective media consumption and mindfulness practices to mitigate the negative impact of constant information flow.

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6. Finding Happiness in Adversity A significant portion of the dialogue centers on discovering joy and contentment even in dire circumstances. They reference studies on post-traumatic growth and how facing adversity can lead to increased happiness and purpose.

• Notable Quote:
  Dr. Laurie Santos (30:12): “It doesn't matter. Yeah. I mean, this is one of the benefits of awful situations like finding out you have a terminal illness or going through terrible trauma or cancerous something is, like, you wind up more positive.”

The guests highlight how shifting perspectives and embracing Stoic techniques can foster a deeper sense of happiness and fulfillment, regardless of external conditions.

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7. Embracing Awe and Positive Emotions The episode explores the role of positive emotions like awe in contributing to happiness, drawing parallels between Stoic practices and modern psychological research.

• Notable Quote:
  Ryan Holiday (48:36): “I think that's the best writing in Meditations. He's talking about like a stalk of grain bending under its own weight...”

They discuss how recognizing and savoring small moments of beauty and moral goodness can significantly enhance everyday happiness.

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8. Overcoming Grief and Regret Dr. Santos and Holiday address the complex emotions tied to grief and loss, suggesting that acknowledging and managing these feelings can prevent them from becoming self-destructive.

• Notable Quote:
  Dr. Laurie Santos (69:09): “...My father in law passed away recently... instead of being pissy, I had compassion...”

They advocate for a Stoic approach to grief, where individuals accept the inevitability of loss while choosing compassionate and constructive responses over lingering resentment.

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Conclusion: "The Joy of Not Being Dead" serves as a profound exploration of how ancient Stoic wisdom intersects with modern psychology to foster enduring happiness. Through their engaging dialogue, Dr. Laurie Santos and Ryan Holiday illuminate actionable strategies for embracing life's impermanence, regulating emotions, and finding joy amidst adversity. This episode underscores the timeless relevance of Stoic philosophy in navigating the complexities of contemporary life, offering listeners practical tools to enhance their well-being and resilience.

Notable Quotes Recap:

• Dr. Laurie Santos (04:40): “It's useful to remember... Memento Mori... I'm going to die. I'm not going to be here.”
• Ryan Holiday (10:09): “Social science studies confirm hypotheses from ancient philosophy...”
• Dr. Laurie Santos (17:44): “The more you fantasize about it, the less you actually go to the gym.”
• Ryan Holiday (54:19): “How do you not let that make you miserable?”
• Dr. Laurie Santos (30:12): “Awful situations... you wind up more positive.”

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Further Resources:

• Dr. Laurie Santos' Works: drlorisaos.com
• Ryan Holiday's The Daily Stoic: Available on The Daily Stoic Podcast

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This summary encapsulates the key discussions and insights from the episode, providing a comprehensive overview for those who haven't listened.

Transcript

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Ryan Holiday]

Hey parents, quick question. When was the last time you won snack time? This was a problem that shocked me when I chatted with moms and dads about their daily stresses for my new happier parenting course. From hungry breakdowns in the kitchen after school to finding a midday treat for the kiddos that won't make you feel guilty, parents seem to be struggling when it comes to snack time. That's why Mott's no Sugar added Applesauce pouches are perfect to keep on hand. They're made with real apples packed in a super easy pouch. Perfect for tossing in a lunchbox, keeping in the car, or grabbing as you're running out the door. Plus, they're a good source of vitamin C and kids love them. It's a win win. Real apples make real good applesauce. Learn [e-mail] One of the things that gives me joy every summer is growing a few pots of mini pumpkins on my side porch. And that's why I was so excited to hear about Mill. Mill is an effortless, odorless food recycler. Well, you know all those food scraps you toss into the garbage every time you cook? Or that random carton of takeout that's been in your fridge forever that you kind of need to toss out but you know it's going to be stinky? Well, with Mill, you can take all that dead food and turn it into something that's good for the planet. And for pumpkins, Mill is the cleanest, easiest way to prevent food waste at home. It makes keeping food out of the trash as easy as dropping it in. Go to mill.comthl for $75 off a mill have you ever been so sick that even the thought of standing up to go to the doctor made you even more sick? AmazonOne Medical has 247 virtual care so you can get help while horizontal and with Amazon Pharmacy you can get medicine delivered fast right to your door. You just have to make it to your door. Thanks to Amazon Healthcare just got less painful. Pushkin hey Happiness Lab listeners. I hope this summer is treating you well and that you're taking some time off to rest and recover. I've been on a bit of a vacay myself, but the team and I will soon be back at work preparing the next season of this show. We'll be sending you back to school Happiness Lab style as I review some of the must read psychology books of the year. So stay tuned for lots of well being wisdom coming your way this September. But I won't be abandoning you until then. Over the next few weeks, I'll be sharing some episodes from other podcasts, and the common thread is that I appear as a guest in all of them. First on the list, the Daily Stoic. Ryan Holiday's hit show is all about what the ancient Stoic philosophers can teach us about living better. Today I was invited on the show.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

To talk about death.

[Ryan Holiday]

But don't let that topic scare you, because as you'll hear, my conversation with Ryan was actually kind of fun. If you like what you hear, you should check out the Daily Stoic wherever.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

You get your podcasts.

[Ryan Holiday]

Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic podcast. I was swimming in Barton Springs yesterday and I'm swimming. I kind of see this movement. It's like a weird thing with Barton Springs where, you know, there's like huge fish in there and you know, there's turtles. So you don't see them as much. Not as much as like Balmore or whatever, but I see this sort of soft shelled turtle just start to head up to the surface and then just like takes off like a rocket. And it almost hits me. It was dodging turtles, surfacing turtles from the depths of Barton Springs. And I just, I was like, ugh, man, life is absurd. And life is good. Even. Just like the light in the pool was amazing, where you could actually see everything. Cause it's brighter in the mornings. I don't know. It was just a great day. And so I'm excited to tell you about today's episode. Actually, this goes back a couple months now. My research assistant, Billy Oppenheimer, who you've heard me talk about before, many of you get his Sunday newsletter, which I highly recommend. You can find that at billyoppenheimer. Com. He is working on a book, which I'm very excited about. I'm sure he'll be on the podcast when that eventually comes out, although he has not sent me a copy of it. And I am saying this here on the episode to jostle him a little bit so he'll finish it up and get it into the publisher. No, but anyways, Billy sent me a clip. He's like, hey, did you see this? And it was a clip of the Huberman Lab podcast where this woman, Dr. Laurie Santos, is talking about Memento Mori. And I was like, oh, wow, that's so cool. And let me actually play you the clip real fast.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

It's useful to remember, like, you know.

[Ryan Holiday]

This is limited, right?

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

This is temporary. I should enjoy this now. While it's happening. The most extreme version of this, of course, is with our own lives, right, Contemplating our mortality. There's this idea of memento mori, which is a common phrase. I actually have. My ring has memento mori on it, which is morbid, right? I'm going to die. I'm not going to be here. But when you recognize that the old school folks thought, and I think it's true, you realize I can't take any of this stuff for granted. I have to pay attention now. This is not the kind of thing that's going to last forever.

[Ryan Holiday]

And then so we reached out and we found out that Dr. Santos would be in Austin for South by Southwest. And she came to the studio. I was like, hey, what are you in town for? South By. This is when she shows up, and she's like, oh, yeah, I'm here at south by to interview Michelle Obama. And I was like, what? Okay, that's a pretty good reason to come to town. Not what I would have expected to bring someone to Central Texas, but here we are, and it does make sense. Dr. Santos is an expert on how happiness. Her Yale course, the Psychology and the Good Life, teaches students how the science of psychology can make you happier and live a more fulfilling life. They've told me the most popular class in Yale history, and Yale has a pretty decent history. I mean, it is 300 years old. So to have the most popular class at one of the most prestigious universities in the world is a pretty incredible accomplishment.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And.

[Ryan Holiday]

And, you know, it makes me think, like, I was introduced to the Stoics while I was in a class in college called Aristotle and the Meaning of Life. So, you know, I just love that this stuff is so popular, and I love that she is bringing the Stoics into her courses. She is, as you will see in this episode, very well versed in the Stoics. We share a lot of ideas and strategies that we both try to apply in our personal life. And, yeah, I just. I really like this interview. It was really exciting. Her work is, of course, incredibly popular. You've seen it all over the world. She has an online version of the class called the Science of Wellbeing on Coursera, which has had more than 4 million students go through it. Her podcast, the Happiness Lab, where she interviews people like Michelle Obama, is one of the most popular podcasts anywhere there are podcasts. So it's all very impressive. You can check out her [e-mail] youm can follow her on Instagram. I will link to that you can follow her on Twitter. She has a YouTube channel and a TikTok channel. I will link to all. All of this. Anyways, I was just thinking, this is a good life, man. Dodging turtles in Barton Springs. Dropped my kid off from school, went swimming, then I picked him up, we went on a field trip. I just. I get to do this. This is what my life is. It's always perfect. There was traffic, there was this, you know, but, like, by and large, this is what the good life is. Stressful couple weeks for me, but, I don't know, more good than bad. And that's, I think, basically what we're going to talk about in today's episode, which I am excited to bring to you now.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

This is my favorite thing in the live studio podcast, is like, tell me your table story.

[Ryan Holiday]

Okay. This is Joan Didion's table.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Oh, my God.

[Ryan Holiday]

That's a really good table story.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

All right. You in? That's.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah, that's better. Thank you. People are like, it's kind of a weird table, but it's like, I bought it at this auction, and these are. These. This was like a dining room table. Joan Didion's house. Yeah. Isn't that cool?

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

That's super cool. Yeah.

[Ryan Holiday]

I normally. I'm not like a coaster person. I'm like, stress.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

I'm like, no, no. Yeah.

[Ryan Holiday]

And then sometimes I'll go like, oh, you can just put that down there. And then they'll think it's like a suggestion. Get it off the table. I think at some point, I'll probably. Because it's. I mean, the table had history before, but now all these people have sat at it.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ryan Holiday]

Like, I thought it was a charity thing, and so I was like, oh, but maybe I could just re. Donate it, like, 10 years from now.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ryan Holiday]

All these other people will have sat at the table, and it'll.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

I mean, Joan would be happy bringing all these cool people to talk.

[Ryan Holiday]

Maybe. She seemed pretty judgmental.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Maybe that's true. She probably doesn't like anything, so.

[Ryan Holiday]

And, like, everything is. She's like this tiny lady.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yeah.

[Ryan Holiday]

You know, so, like, sometimes, like. Like, we have, like, an athlete coming in soon, and I'm like, I don't know. We might have to get different chairs. This is. This is meant for a small person. Well, thank you for coming.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yeah. Thanks so much. I've been a fan for a while, so.

[Ryan Holiday]

Really, I was.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

When I got this invite, I was like, yes. Yeah.

[Ryan Holiday]

Well, I thought you might have your memento mori ring on.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

I took it off to travel because I'm scared I'm going to lose it. So. Which is dumb. I also have another second arrow. So it's an arrow. So that's my Buddhist one. I have my Memento Mori one and a Buddhist one.

[Ryan Holiday]

Well, tell me the story on both. Memento mori, remember, you will die. Why is that something you want to wear on your person?

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Because it's nice to remember that you're going to die. Right? I mean. No, seriously. I mean, I think it, like, causes you to live better. And there's research showing this too, right? That fast forwarding to your death, this idea of death awareness, noticing that things might go away soon. You wind up, like, enjoying things more, whether it's like a local thing. Like, they do this with, like, college seniors who are about to graduate and just notice, hey, you're going to graduate really soon. They spend their time differently when you remind them, really, I think for bigger things, for life, too. This is like. I mean, this is what the stoics were on top of, like, before anybody did these social science studies about this stuff.

[Ryan Holiday]

But, yeah, isn't it interesting how much social science studies confirm just hypotheses or arguments from ancient philosophy that they were just making up 2000 years ago or 2500 years.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And even still, like, I have a colleague, Hedy Kober, who studies meditation and a lot of kind of, you know, ancient practice from the Buddhist. And I was like, you need to go do stoicism. So she's doing negative visualization studies now to try to see if that also can, like, she just studies, like, craving and these kinds of things. Can it reduce craving? You feel better and so on. But I'm like, still new insights from them are coming in.

[Ryan Holiday]

So do you just kind of fiddle with the ring and is there something you run through in your mind?

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

The other reason I don't take it to podcasts is I thwack it. You know, I have to take it out. Yeah, you notice it every once in a while and then you. This is another one I got, because this came from Arthur Brooks, who I know you had on your show.

[Ryan Holiday]

I think he was wearing a very similar.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yeah, so his work with the Dalai Lama, he hangs out with these monks who.

[Ryan Holiday]

Did you go on that trip?

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

I did not. I had a wedding and I was like, can you move the wedding?

[Ryan Holiday]

No, no.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

But I met one of the monks who was there, and because of the work, they gave me this. And so it's blessed by the Dalai Lama. And it's meant to remind you that you're on the path to being a bodhisattva. And it is true that I'll be literally today driving over here, trying to get out of the main part of Austin City. And I looked at it, it was about to road rage, and I was like, no, I want to pat to being a bodhisattva. Control over this. And so, yeah, so the reminders help. Yeah.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah. I don't know if people agree. People find momentum more imorbid. People find it disconcerting, depressing. There's a reason that people don't do it. They don't want to think about it.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Oh, it's disturbing. I mean, I think it's partly the disturbingness that makes it so powerful.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yes.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Right. It, like, makes me a little want to, like, vomit in my mouth every time I think about it, but it also makes me want to put my phone away and notice the things around me and have a conversation with someone. So, yeah, I think it works because it's really discombobulating and you can get.

[Ryan Holiday]

Desensitized to it itself a little bit. And what I think is interesting, which has never been desensitized for me, is the one that Marcus really talks about in Meditations, which he's craving from Epictetus. He says, as you tuck your child in at night, say to yourself, they will not make it till the morning.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yes.

[Ryan Holiday]

So there's something about memento mori for yourself. You just be like, yeah, of course I'm going to die. I always knew this, hopefully. But. But it's when. If you have to meditate on losing someone or something so precious to you, you never become desensitized to that. It is always a very powerful, sobering, humbling, and a little bit terrifying thought to run through your mind. And there's something about the human mind that doesn't want to consider it precisely because of all those things.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yes, yes, yes. But what's amazing about the human mind is that you can just instantly switch your reference point with a little bit of imagination. Right. And I think this was one of the stoic insights. Like, if you actually have a bad thing happen to you, that changes your reference point. Like, I actually lose my phone, like, while on this trip. Oh, my God, this is a pain in the butt. I gotta get. I never realized how much I appreciated my phone, but I get a new phone, it's like, oh, a phone. It's so useful. I can look at the map and so on.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yes.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

But what's amazing is we don't actually have to go through the actual terrible thing, we can just simulate it very briefly. And this is, I think Marcus Aurelius is insight. Right. Like, every morning you should wake up and think, I might, you know, get shunned. I might lose my job, I might lose my. My legs won't work and stuff. And I think that that's amazing that we have the power to do that, that we don't actually have to face the real consequences, but we can psychologically reset our reference point. It's such a good hack.

[Ryan Holiday]

Well, what's interesting is we use our imagination in a way that's not helpful all the time.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Totally.

[Ryan Holiday]

So we imagine a bunch of extremely un. You know, fake things. We're ruminating on stuff that nobody's thinking about, and we're torturing ourselves with our imagination instead of using our imagination to prepare for things. Like, oftentimes if you act like, if you just kind of have this vague imagining of a terrible thing, you feel unpleasant. But if you can get specific with it and you go, well, what would I do? Here's what my plan. Actually, it has the exact opposite effect. So you sort of decide how you're going to use your imagination.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And this is a critique that I sometimes get from my students. I talk about these negative visualization psychology studies in my happiness class. And I'll always get a student who stays after class and is like, but wait, isn't rumination terrible? Isn't that, like the worst symptom of, you know, depressive episodes? And I'm like, marcus Aurelius didn't say, like, do that 14 hours a day. He said, like, first 10 minutes right before the world, you know, like, do that quickly and then recognize that that's not true. Appreciate and move on. And I think that's where we get stuck, right? Is that we have to know the dosage of some of these practices. And that can get a little tricky. Including memento mori. Right. A terrible health, anxious paranoia that you're going to die is not awesome.

[Ryan Holiday]

Right. Hypochondria is not supposed to be the result.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Correct. I think the Stoics were good about giving us that sort of dosage. But in practice, that's where the rubber meets in.

[Ryan Holiday]

Well, sophrosinae is like the right amount.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yes?

[Ryan Holiday]

Right. Like, no. The ability to discern. It's interesting that the line between, like, where is sort of temperance, where is wisdom? But they're the same. They're related. It's like, what is the golden mean of this exercise, this truth, this idea? Because when you hear Seneca on the one Hand say, you know, we suffer more in imagination than in reality. And then he also says, he who suffers before it is necessary suffers more than is necessary. He says, like the unexpected blow lands heaviest. And then he's also saying, like, don't torture yourself with every possible thing that could happen. People feel like that's a contradiction. And I think oftentimes that is a critique of the Stoics, that they contradict each other. What they're actually saying is, not too much over here and not too little over here. Get the right amount. Even on something like, hey, am I prepared for things to not go my way? Is very different than ruminating on how they're never going to go your way.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Exactly, exactly. And I think, you know, if you. This is. I love the Stoics, but I also like bringing in these other kinds of traditions, too. Right. Like, if you look to Aristotle, this was something that Aristotle was really worried about, the kind of right amount, like, virtue isn't one thing or the other. It's not kind of bravery or cowardice.

[Ryan Holiday]

It's this lovely sweet spot in the middle.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And so, yeah, so I think that the right amount is something that we should be thinking about a lot.

[Ryan Holiday]

Well, that's the problem with the word temperance, is that temperance in America, not even in English, but the temperance movement became the abstinence movement.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Smash your bottles of rye.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah, exactly. I mean, none. Not. What is the right amount? What is a moderate, safe, reasonable amount? And that's a hard. And look, there's some things. Not at all. Some things you should definitely not do. There's probably not a moderate amount of heroin that you should be doing. Yeah, but. Or fentanyl or something. But there are other things that if you can do them in moderation, it's totally fine. And I think ruminating is probably one of those things, because there's a fine line between ruminating and being ignorant.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yeah. And I think, you know, one of the things I think the Stoics would say is that, you know, the main principle of, like, finding agency over your own mind, finding agency over your own emotions. Emotions. Finding agency of your own actions. Like, they almost want you to be probably in that hard sweet spot of sorting it out for yourself. Right. That's a kind of virtue that the Stoics want you to cultivate.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah. You want to be prepared for things to go wrong, but also not a cynical, miserable. You know, because I don't believe in manifestation, but I do believe, like, if you have a fundamentally negative worldview, the world will be negative to You. I'm not. I don't think you're changing reality. But if you only look for the worst, you're gonna find a lot of bad stuff.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Okay. But this is a spot where my students also get it confused. And I think it is really confusing psychologically. Right. Because on the one hand, we know thinking about the worst helps you a little bit in all the ways we were just talking about. We also know that optimism helps you a little bit, but it also has these interesting downsides. Right. In the manifesting work. There's lots of work by folks like Gabrielle Oettingen that if you fantasize about a positive future a lot, you take less action towards that positive future.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yes.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

So she has these studies where, like, you know, you fantasize about getting fit and going to the gym all the time. You think, oh, my gosh, it's gonna be so great. I'm fit in my clothes, I'm gonna look great, whatever. But then the more you fantasize about it, the less you actually go to the gym. And this, too, comes from a weird feature of imagination, which is that if we've imagined a goal, we don't want that goal as much anymore. There's this lovely study by this guy, Kerry Morwedge, who has people either imagining putting quarters into a vending machine over and over again really slowly or slowly eating M and M's one by one. And then at the end of the study, people come out and there's a big vat of mms.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

What does he find? He finds the people that imagine the quarters eat less M and M's because they kind of feel like if you imagined eating all the M and M's, you're kind of satisfied by them. You don't need them anymore.

[Ryan Holiday]

Right, Right.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And this is what happens with certain kinds of positive fantasies. We imagine that we already went to the gym and got all the benefits. It's like, well, I don't need to put action into that.

[Ryan Holiday]

I think it's kind of like you took, like. Like, obviously the ancients were saying, like, you should do things for the right reasons, not for necessarily the external rewards. But if part of what is motivating us is the reward and you have stolen it. Like, you've taken it on credit, you've fantasized it into existence. You have decreased some of your motivation to do that thing. Like, I've always. I try not to talk about, like, a book that I'm working on. I prefer to spend all the energy doing it.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yes.

[Ryan Holiday]

Because I find that that Depletes the motivation to do the hard, uncomfortable day to dayness of the thing. It's easier to live in the fantasy world than the messy making it world.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Right. Or you can use your imagination to recognize, okay, if that's my goal, what's it really gonna take? Right. This is kind of like, you know, when you go to the baths, like, know what's gonna happen at the baths. Right. If you have this goal, know what it takes to get there.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And I think that was another really rich. I associate that with Epictetus, but correct me if I'm getting the wrong stoic here. Yeah. Where it's kind of like, if you want that goal, you want to be the fit person, imagine the plan to get there. And it turns out from the research that that's a thing that works really well. If you imagine, okay, I want to get fit, say, well, then I have to go to the gym every day. I have to put my sneakers out. I really have to commit to this. That helps you know what the plan is, because you kind of rehearsed it. It's not as bad or not as much of a pain in the butt. But also sometimes you do that and you're like, actually, there's no way I'm going to get my act together to do that. And then you can have a more appropriate goal. Right. You can kind of use your imagination to figure out which goals are appropriate.

[Ryan Holiday]

Well, I think of we were talking about testing the stoic ideas, like in the laboratory. Person who did that most recently is Stockdale. Stockdale gets a graduate degree in ancient philosophy at Stanford. The Navy sends him, and then he gets thrown into a real Stanford prison experiment.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

To be fair, most psychologists don't go as hardcore as Stockdale, but yeah.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah. And there he's basically testing a lot of these ideas. He's also really well steeped in the sort of literature as well. But what I think is fascinating is they asked him after, you know, who had the hardest time, and he said it was the optimists. Because there was this sense that they would get out by the. They were always falling for the hey, by Christmas. Or, you know, news stories would trickle back to them, or they'd hear things in letters, you know, an armed justice is coming. And then when that wouldn't happen, they were crushed. And what's interesting, in his memoirs, which obviously he wrote after the fact that. But you can even see it in some of the letters he wrote at the time, he kept saying, like, it's going to be at least another Two years, it's going to be at least. Like, he was, as it turned out, underestimating how long it would take. But he was not at all convinced that this would happen quickly. And so there's something about optimism that can set you up to be crushed by a world you don't control.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yes, because again, what our mind is doing is it's setting up these reference points. And if we set up a reference point, like, by Christmas, everything's going to be great and it's going to be perfect, and we don't get there. You know, we feel terrible. Even if objectively we probably could have made it. I mean, we're talking about terrible Vietnamese prison. It's probably, you know, bad, extreme case. But the idea is if you set your reference point too high, then even getting the second best possible thing, you know, feels. Feels kind of crappy. Here's another one of my, like, favorite psych reference point studies. So researchers analyze people's smiles on the Olympic medal stand.

[Ryan Holiday]

Right.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And that is who's happiest. Right. So you look at the gold medalist. He's that person, you know, best in the world, really happy. What's going on with the silver medalist? Turns out they're not showing expressions of happiness. They're showing expressions of things like grief, contempt, deep sadness. And that's because, like, you know, their reference point was like, I almost got gold. So they're objectively second best in the world, but feeling really crappy about it. That kind of makes sense. But the reason I love this study is they also analyze the smiles of the bronze medalists. Right?

[Ryan Holiday]

Yes. Happy to be there.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

They're so happy to be there. In fact, in some cases, their smiles are bigger than the gold medalist because, like, oh, my God. My alternative, my negative visualization is like, I almost didn't get up here at all. And that study has always been really powerful to me, and I love that.

[Ryan Holiday]

Because I think there's a Seinfeld bit about that that predates the study. He sort of intuited it just as a. As a student of human nature. And that's the best. Studies confirm kind of what we obviously know, or it confirms, like, the opposite of what we think we know, but that one. So he nails. That's exactly what it is.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Jerry Seinfeld was such a great psychologist with so many. So many different domains.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah, Yeah. I think for me, the Memento Mori thing is it's not that you are going to die tomorrow, but that you could.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yes.

[Ryan Holiday]

And the couldness puts a level of uncertainty and Then it forces you to make some decisions. I think that's kind of how I think about it.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

That's right. And I think those decisions ultimately are ones that make us a lot happier. Right. The decisions are usually to be a little bit more present, to not fall for the like, you know, low value, you know, dopamine hit in the current parlance, even though it's not really a dopamine hit, but like, does it kind of low value quick, Like I'm looking at my phone rather than hanging out with my kid right before he goes to bed. Right. And those changes matter a lot. Those changes matter a lot for our moment to moment happiness. But I think those changes matter a lot for really appreciating the stuff we have in life, which again, you know, as this stoic so lovingly pointed out, like, it's not guaranteed at any point.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah, the like, hey, should we extend the vacation one day or hey, should I blow off work and go spend an extra bit of time for this or should I take this phone call? It's the, it could be the last time that you get that thing correct and so you should probably seize it while it's here. That is, I think, just a real practical way. Momentum worry helps you make better day to day decisions.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

It also changes our time horizon. Right. Like psychologists often worry about these cases of myopia, right, where you're not saving enough, you're not eating healthy enough, you're not protecting your future self. I, from a happiness standpoint, worry a lot about the opposite, which is hyperopia, which is like we're constantly saying I'm doing something for my future self. Right. But we both get our future self wrong. And sometimes like the future isn't guaranteed. So you know, take the reward, take that fun thing now, you know, you know, how many times like do people not end up spending their frequent flyer miles and they expire or you know, buy this nice bottle of wine that you and your partner are going to have one day and then you finally find it and it's like corked or something. I feel like we're constantly in danger of corking our lives, even in these local domains. I mean, I've heard you use the example of your, you know, kids going to bed and that, you know, stoic mantra helping you notice and be present. What would you be doing if you weren't being present? Well, you'd probably be checking an email for like future you is trying to.

[Ryan Holiday]

Get something not important at all.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Exactly.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yes.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And so fighting our hyper Appia and Making sure, you know, we're prioritizing things in the present so that we get the right future benefit, I think is important.

[Ryan Holiday]

I've never met someone who's not saving for retirement, not taking care of themselves because they have philosophically worked themselves into that position. Yes, they're not doing that because they're just not responsible.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

It's not a. Yeah, that's right. That's right.

[Ryan Holiday]

I do think this is a trouble with some folks philosophy. And some people, people like, they, they try to, like, overthink it. And for these edge cases that aren't real or would affect such a minority of the. It's like. It's like people don't want to work out because they don't want to be too fit.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ryan Holiday]

You're. You're not gonna get there. Don't worry about it. You know, and it's like, you know, if everyone actually put in this ancient philosophical practice, Social Security would go bankrupt. And it's like, no, okay, first off, it's automatically taken out of everyone's account. It's not a choice. That's why. But like, no, the people that are not doing it are doing it for other irresponsible reasons, not for an extreme philosophical principle.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yeah. And I do feel like hyperopia is one of the, you know, people who are a little philosophically informed or thinking about how to live a good life. They're often the ones that are pretty good at, like, discounting. Right. Like, you know, withholding. But then if you do that too much, you know, again, none of us know what our moment is. And Memento Mori is just a reminder of, like, could be tonight.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yes.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

What do I want to do different? If it was.

[Ryan Holiday]

Well, how many of these people that are obsessed with sort of radical life extension have a life worth extending? Seneca talks about this story about this Emperor, this criminal sort of begging to be spared, like, don't put me to death. And he says, oh, you're really alive. That's what the Emperor says to him. He's like, you have wasted your life. You're a shitty person doing shitty things, and now you're begging to be spared. To do what? So you can go back to your life of crime. This is not a statement on the justice of the death penalty. The point is, when I look at the life that these people are trying to extend, I'm like, what, you're living like a monk, but not in a philosophical way.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yes. Getting random injections. And you can't hang out with people because when you Hang out with people, you're gonna have drink or go out and have some food, you're gonna eat.

[Ryan Holiday]

You don't go in the sun because you're worried about the sun. What you're doing is stripping all the reasons for existence out of existence, to then prolong the existence. So maybe in the future you'll someday be happy. You could be happy now.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And I think they're getting the evidence wrong. I think a lot of the evidence for that form of longevity comes from like, I don't know, supplement research, like, what? But if you look psychologically at the kinds of things that extend longevity, it is happiness in the moment, your social connections, right? The good that you're doing in the world, the sense of purpose and value, right? These are the things that extend life when you're faced with terminal illnesses and so on. And so it's like, I think they're doing it for the wrong reasons. They're going to get a long life that's not very valuable. But I also think they're missing out if really what your goal was longevity. You might actually just want a happy life in the moment because that would work.

[Ryan Holiday]

Have you ever talked to someone who's really old, like 90 to 100 or whatever? I've talked to many of them and first off, they don't talk about being old. They don't talk about wanting to live longer. And they're not even particularly pumped that they're still alive, to be perfectly honest. I don't mean like their life is depressing, but one of the striking things about someone you meet, anyone over 100, they are not clinging to life. They are not like, I hope I make it to 112. I need two more years to get this stuff done. What they actually are is day to day. And like, I just met Richard Overton in Austin. He was 112, and I asked him if he takes it day by day. And he said, at my age, you take it day by night. He's like, look, I just. If I live through the evening, if I wake up tomorrow, that's like defying the odds once again. In fact, it can sometimes be painful if you love these people. They're like, I'm ready to go. And you're like, don't say that.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ryan Holiday]

Because you're not ready for them to go. But they have gotten to a place where life is no longer so precious to them. And that's probably part of it. But it's just interesting to me that when you talk to the people who it's like, I guess this is also true for wealth. When you talk to the people who have it, they're like, it's not that great. I'd trade it for X, Y or Z. And then the people that are obsessed with life expectancy are often neglecting the present moment at the expense of some optimized future.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yes, yes. And ultimately when you get there, you might be happier than you think, no matter what you optimized. Right. I think this is another stunning thing, is that as people, as people get older, but specifically as people get closer to death, they wind up being more positive rather than less. And one of the key studies that looked at this, I mean, just talking about a structural issue that we should talk about and fight about, but it looked at people on death row, right? Where for older individuals, probably they're getting closer to that last moment, but we don't know when it's going to be. Unfortunately, with individuals on death row, we can measure it. And so researchers look at people's journals, their expressions and things as they get closer, and rather than getting more negative, they actually get substantially more positive because.

[Ryan Holiday]

The anger, the frustration, the fear, it just dissipates because what's the point you're working at?

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Right. I think we don't actually know why it is, but it seems like psychologically what happens is you wind up kind of happier and if you look at kind of death row notes, because often people will write, you know, about their situation, whatever, like way more strongly, like 2 to 1, strongly positive words and other oriented words like kindness and their connection and the meaning they've gotten and so on. Like it's not like turns down the.

[Ryan Holiday]

Noise on the trivial. They're not like, this guy stole this thing from my bunk, you know, like just the things you're holding on to when there's an eternity. There's a story Lincoln tells this guy in his town who hated this other guy, they hated each other. And he finds out he has some terminal illness. And so he reaches out and he says, I want to make amends. And so the guy comes in, he sees him, and they make amends. And as the former enemy is leaving, he says, hey, I just want you to know, if I survive this, the grudge is back. And there's something about the silliness of what we cling to that the ephemerality of life renders insignificant. And I imagine whether you're sitting on death row, you just found out you have cancer, or you're 95, you're just like meh.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

It doesn't matter. Yeah. I mean, this is one of the benefits of awful situations like finding out you have a terminal illness or going through terrible trauma or cancerous something is like, you wind up more positive, more likely to kind of drop the bs. There's lots of evidence for what researchers call post traumatic growth, which is kind of just what it sounds like, right? You go through this traumatic experience and you're like, I feel more connected to my purpose. I feel more connected to other people. I feel it's much easier to kind of do you know what the Stoics said a lot about, which is like, just don't deal with the, you know, just drop the boring stuff. Right? And that seems to come naturally when you face something kind of existential in this rich way.

[Ryan Holiday]

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To me, the essence of wisdom is like, knowing what matters and what doesn't matter. And Mento Mori is obviously a shortcut to, like, the ultimate wisdom of, like, hey, basically nothing matters except this present moment and the people you love. But just, yeah, the faster and better you can get at being like, I have no control over that. It doesn't matter. Like, Seneca talks about paying the taxes of life gladly. Yes, we post this on a daily Stoke, like every April 15th. And the irony of the people who get angry and think it's making a political point and they go, irs, you know, taxation is theft. And it's like, no, he's saying that taxes are an unavoidable part of life, not just from the government, but, like, delays are a tax on travel. Rainy days are a tax on, you know, living in the tropics. Right? Like, they're just. Every rose has its thorn. That's what he's saying. And I think the element, what philosophy is supposed to get you to what wisdom and sort of these practices, okay, this is just a fact. This is just a thing. And my opinion about it doesn't matter. Fighting about it doesn't matter. I just accept it and move on. And that's how you know you're making progress. Is the less hung up and resentful and bent out of shape you are about those things that just don't matter or are inalterable.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And I think if you understand a little bit about the psychology, you can realize that, like, not only do you have some agency in that, but there's learning that goes on, right? There's growth, right? If you take this mindset of, like, I'm not going to let the BS destroy me, then when the BS shows up, you're like, oh, hang on, this is my time to level up. Like, this is some really good BS to, like, achieve my calm and so on. And that reading the Stoics has been kind of a game changer for me is to remember that when the tax shows up, you're like, oh, good thing. This is how I build up my life. Tax resilience. And this is actually good. This is a chance for me to show my metal or something. And I think that kind of stance can be really powerful because it means you almost. Not only are you, like, I'm just accepting of the BS when it shows up, you're almost like, bring it. You know, I go to the airport and I'm like, is this going to be a. Like, when you go to the bath situation? Like, let's, you know. You know. Yeah.

[Ryan Holiday]

I remember when I moved to New York, a friend who'd lived there a long time, he's like, look, the secret to New York is you gotta. You gotta understand that it costs what it costs. You come from somewhere else, you're like, this is insanely expensive. This is insanely dirty. You just have all these objections that this isn't how it should be. And he was basically saying, like, look, if you're gonna go out for drinks in New York City, it's gonna cost a lot of money. If you're gonna go out to breakfast, your apartment's gonna. That's just what it is. And the sooner you accept that. And he wasn't making a financial point. He was saying, like, don't. Don't add on top of this resentment and bafflement and shock.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Like, what? Like.

[Ryan Holiday]

And don't spend a ton of energy trying to think you can beat the system. It costs what it costs. And to me, that's the. Like, just a really basic philosophical, like, life is what it is. People are people. When you go to the baths, expect this thing. That's what it is. And that was true in ancient Rome. It was true in ancient Greece. It was true in this or that dynasty in China. It's just how it is.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

It's just how it is.

[Ryan Holiday]

The sooner you go, it costs what it costs. I'm just gonna pay, and I'm gonna pay it gladly. The happier you can be as a person.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And this, I think, is where imagination can help us, because you can help yourself remember that, Ooh, this is a situation coming up where, like, it's a bath situation. My husband's a philosop for also a big stoic Stan like me, and he constantly is reminding me, like, this is a bath situation. He lives in the Midwest, which means we're constantly flying through o' Hare Airport and I think, like, you know, Epictetus wasn't talking about o' Hare Airport, but he could have been when he was talking about the bath. And like, literally, when we. When I'm about to book a flight and I'm like, here's our labor room. O'. Hare. My husband will be like, remember, we go to the bath. Like, when you go to o', Hare, flights get canceled. There is snow, and you just have to. And I'm like, oh, yeah, it's that situation.

[Ryan Holiday]

I flew through o' Hare a week and a half ago. And even though as I was looking at the flight on flight aware, it's like average flights out of O' Hare are 32 minutes delayed, right? And I get there, and I was flying from Dubai, and so it's like, all I wanted to do was get home. You know, it's like the last two and a half hour leg and get there, board the plane, immediate 32 minute delay. And I'm surprised by it. I'm like, what? You know, and it's like, like, no, no. They told you on average this was gonna happen. It could actually be worse, that it was almost certainly not gonna be better. And here you are, you have the information. You know what o' Hare is like, and you know what o' Hara is like right now. And then you're disappointed, caught off guard, and you are, like, frustrated, as if something's being done to you, as if it's not being done to everyone and they didn't warn you in advance.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yes, yes, yes. But for me, that advanced simulation, when I'm like, I'm going to, you know, we're here in Texas having this conversation. I'm in Austin, you know, relative to the Northeast, there's just a lot of traffic. There's a lot of, like, you're just gonna not go very far and you're gonna sit in traffic, and I just have to. Yes, when you're in Austin, you just, you know, do what they.

[Ryan Holiday]

Well, you go, hey, at least it's not Sao Paulo or something, right? Like, what the perspective goes is, hey, would you rather it be canceled? You know, and that.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And that moment of negativity, like recognizing you have the agency to pick a different reference point is so, so powerful. A couple years ago, broke my knee on the ice for the second time. So I broke my kn. First time. And then a few years later, it broke my knee again. And it was like, right at the beginning of this very busy period of my life. And I was so bummed out about it, and I was like, this is the time for the Stoics. And I picked up Bill Irvine, the philosopher. I think you've had him on the show. His book, Stoic Challenge. And he was like, you know, this is a Stoic challenge. But the book is awesome because it goes through, like, you know, you broke your leg. I was like, well, that happened to me. Like, bummer. But then he's like, but you could be, you know, blind. Like, you could have, like, had your leg chopped off. You could be locked in, right? Where, like, you know, you literally can't communicate with anybody except blinking your eyes and drooling. And I was like, oh, that's knee is great. I can deal with knee. It's like. And so just having that power, like, taking the agency to remember that you can find this reference point that makes you feel not that bad. That, for me, has been a real game changer.

[Ryan Holiday]

Well, Epictetus said, you know, we choose which handle we're going to grab, that every situation has two handles. And I actually. I don't disagree with the Stokes too much, but I would say, actually, every situation has an infinite number of handles, and you get to choose which one you're going to go. So. So, hey, it's broke your knee instead of, you know, an amputation. That's one. The other is, what are the fucking chances that I broke my knee twice the same way? Isn't this hilarious? You know, there's a huge number.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And did the Stoics talk about humor a lot? Cause I feel like that's where my mind goes to with some of these negative visualizations, but I don't see that as much.

[Ryan Holiday]

Well, Seneca says that there's two schools of thought. She says there's Democritus, who basically despaired and cried over the awfulness of life, and Heraclitus, who laughed at it. And which are you gonna choose? So, again, that's the handle, right? You're gonna choose the depressing, cynical handle, or you're gonna, you know, choose the absurdity laughter handle. We know that one of the Stoics, Chrysippus, dies of laughter. He's actually on the Wikipedia page for unusual deaths. And the joke is, he was sitting on his front porch, and a donkey runs away from its owner and runs up and begins eating, like, figs out of his garden. And Chrysippus says, you should get that donkey some wine to wash down those figs. And then starts to laugh at his own joke, which, as I do not understand, like, I don't get the joke. What does it mean. And he laughs so hard that he dies.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

That's beautiful.

[Ryan Holiday]

Which I love, because first off, we have this idea of the humorless stoics.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yes, yes.

[Ryan Holiday]

And then in and of itself is funny. What a ridiculous way to die.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Like, probably if you would have told him that was how he's gonna die, he's like, that's beautiful. It's a legacy. I want to.

[Ryan Holiday]

And it's kind of a memento mori thing too. Like, you know, you look at, like, famous people who died on the toilet or, you know, like, just like, you think life is so dignified and in your control and you're going to die with your boots on and it's like, actually, no, you're going to sneeze too hard and have a stroke. You know, like, the human body is so lame and stupid and you're not any bit above that.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yeah. And when you ultimately look at that, it's kind of funny, right? It's kind of. It's like, connects you with everything, right?

[Ryan Holiday]

Yes. You see, like, oh, this deer got an antler stuck in a tree, they'll find. Or have you ever seen where it's like two. Like a deer with another deer's head stuck?

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Oh, yes. Oh, yes.

[Ryan Holiday]

And you're just like, that's so dumb. And then you're like, human history is in full of dumber ways that we've killed each other or accidentally killed ourselves. You know, it's just like, life is pathetic in that way.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yeah. Recognizing that humor can be part of your agency, I think is really, really, really powerful.

[Ryan Holiday]

Do you feel like the stoics didn't talk about happiness enough?

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Well, I think. I mean, their whole point was getting to a happy life. I think they didn't define it that much because I think they were kind of like, what you want is like, not to be bothered by the BS of life. Like, I think they didn't state that out because they just thought it was so self aware.

[Ryan Holiday]

Let's eliminate all the pointless causes of unhappiness.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yes. Yeah, yeah. And ultimately, I think, you know, they're channeling something I think is really important in the happiness science, which is like, even in extreme circumstances, like, it doesn't define your happiness in the way that you think. Right. And all the good stuff definitely doesn't define your happiness, like getting more money, getting more prestige, that stuff. It doesn't make you happier. And I think the stoics were onto that, but also for a different reason, which is like, at any point it could go away. Right. And so if you're going for the. And you tend not to have control over that stuff as much. Right. So leading a life where you really don't want to be perturbed, just go for the stuff that you can control and you make it much easier on yourself.

[Ryan Holiday]

Well, Cicero's question was like, can you be happy on the rack?

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yes.

[Ryan Holiday]

And that seems like, you know, is that like a philosophical question, like the trolley problem? And then like, well, this dude did get his head and hands chopped off by a vindictive enemy, so it wasn't so abstract. He did mean, can you be happy when you're grieving the loss of a child? Can you be happy when your government has fallen? Can you be happy when you're in exile? I do think the Stoics specifically had a more robust and resilient happiness in mind. They weren't talking about laughter and fun so much as it's not smiling happiness, but it's something more profound.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

It's eudaimonia. Right. They're like stealing from these other ancient concepts. So it's really about kind of having a flourishing life. But I think the difference of a flourishing life for the Stoics is like, okay, have the flourishing life and do all the good, valuable moral things, but also don't let the BS get you down. Like, don't experience the perturbations. If we could just get, or just not get rid of the negative emotions, but use them in ways to get you towards your values and regulate them as quickly as possible, in part because, like, you can. Right. And so I think what the Stoics are really focused on, or at least my read of the Stoics is focused on, is like regulating that negative emotion so that you feel happy kind of in your life. Modern day psychologists tend to think about happiness as having these two parts sort of being happy in your life. So ideally, lots of positive emotion, the laughter and so on, but less negative emotion. Not none, but less negative emotion. And then second, being happy with your life, which is kind of like you think your life is going well, it has value, it has purpose.

[Ryan Holiday]

Having enough, having enough, not needing some conditional future thing to go a certain way to become happy then, but you have it now.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yeah. And I think the Stoics tapped into both of these. Often psychologists talk about these two parts as sort of the affective part of happiness, how your life feels versus the cognitive part of happiness, how you think your life is going.

[Ryan Holiday]

Right.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And I think the Stoics wanted to kind of achieve both. Right? You regulate your negative emotions you come up with all these strategies to have control over them, but you also have control over your thoughts and how you think it's going. Right. And so even in a bad situation, you can think it's going well because you have a mechanism of appreciating it.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah, it's, it's tough though.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

It's tough though.

[Ryan Holiday]

How many, how many powerful, successful, important people would we, would we say were happy?

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Very few. Right?

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

But I think the Stoics would be like, yep. Because like they're going after all these things that they ultimately can't control.

[Ryan Holiday]

Right, Right.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

But I think also the Stoics, so, so that's another big principle of the happiness science. Like you can definitely become happier, you can't become infinitely happier. Most of the modal size of most of the effects in the field are about 10%. Dan Harris has this idea of 10% happier is really built on the evidence because you can go up about a point on a 10 point happiness scale what most of these interventions do. Right. So you can get happier, but ultimately it takes some work. And I think those stoics knew about some of the most painful sort of passages in the Stoics for me are when they're just like laying out like, yeah, you know, your, your kid could go and you gotta like, just be like, yep, he didn't belong to me anyway. And you're like, yeah, but like, yeah, you know, it didn't belong to me. So if I really wanna be happy, I just have to not. I have to. You know, the day after your spouse dies, you're like, yeah, I'm not perturbed. Cuz my goal is to live unperturbed. And you're like, oh man, that's rough. That takes a lot of work.

[Ryan Holiday]

It's a lot to ask. It's a bit much to be like, you know, Marx really says meditation is a little depressing. It's like, okay, this guy was the most powerful person in the world.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yeah.

[Ryan Holiday]

He spent his whole reign at war. There was a flood, there was a famine, there was a coup attempt. Some historians think his wife was repeatedly unfaithful. He buried more than half of his children. He lost his father as a young man. You know, just think of the conniving, awful, disingenuous people he would have had to deal with on a day to day basis. And by the way, what he really liked was books. And he never had a time like it's a lot to be like, well, you know, he could have been more fun like that. This Guy got out of bed in the morning was a profound statement about his happiness and hopefulness and, you know, sort of character and resilience. Like, I think it would have wrecked most people. Yeah. It's insane that he didn't kill himself, to be quite honest. Like, how did he not stagger under those blows? And I would say he probably did. But there was some fundamental love of life and the day to day that kept him going.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And I think that this, you know, this idea of a fundamental love of life in the day to day that keeps you going is so powerful. Right. In the happiness space. Folks often talk about gratitude, which I think can sometimes sound cheesy. I wish I had better marketing. I like to talk often about delights.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yes.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Which are just kind of just like things in the world that you like. Delight. Like it's just you, you know, sunny out. This cat's here and it's really cute, you know, I mean, morning coffee has a little swirl in it. And that's funny. It's like, oh, delight.

[Ryan Holiday]

That's some of the best writing in meditations. He's talking about like a stalk of grain bending under its own weight. He talks about the brow of a lion. My favorite delight. When he talks about the way that you put a loaf of bread in the oven and when it comes out it has this crack on the top. And he's like, nobody knows why. And it wasn't on purpose, but it's sort of pretty and just like the poet's eye for the mundane extraordinariness of life.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yeah. And I think, you know, what they're tapping into is a positive emotion that we know is super important for happiness. We don't talk about a lot, which is this emotion of awe. Right. It's kind of something bigger than you. It's kind of like you don't really understand it. So it kind of makes you feel a little bit weird. And I think that stoics saw that level of awe in so many things, including the moral goodness of other people. Right. This guy Dacher Keltner at UC Berkeley does a lot of studies of awe. And he kind of goes through the different categories where we experience awe. Like, you think it's like, you know, like some spiritual moment or taking psychedelics. The Grand Canyon. And he's like, most of the ones that normal people report on a day to day are the moral goodness of other people.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Just like somebody did something really amazing and good or somebody achieved some really interesting thing. Like.

[Ryan Holiday]

And I think lose a pair of sunglasses and they're at the lost and found when you come back to turn.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Them in or, you know, you're walking and somebody drops their ID and you see someone pick up the ID for them, and you're like, that's just.

[Ryan Holiday]

You see someone help a mom down a flight of stairs, like, carry the stroller or whatever, you know, like, strangers, when it's like, oh, holding the door open. Yes.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yeah. They're just kind of helpers around. And I think that the Stoics were looking for those moments of moral goodness. They wanted to experience them themselves and be the kind of person that did that stuff. But they also were, like, open to noticing it. Plus the cracks on the bread, right? The little, tiny, little wonderful delights.

[Ryan Holiday]

You were saying awe. It's like, how do you find awe in an awful world? Right? Like, not, hey, look, if you retreat to a monastery and you live in the beautiful green hills of China, you know, open up the window and be like, wow, this is amazing. That's one thing. It's like, I'm gonna go to the beach this weekend. It's gonna be wonderful. The ocean is the ocean, but it's. Can you find the awe in the delayed flight on the way there? That. This is the miracle of flight?

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yes.

[Ryan Holiday]

And it's, you know, the rude person. Hey, that we're not, like, stabbing each other to death is actually pretty incredible. The coordination of all of this and, you know, can you find it in the not so awesome things? That's where the work is.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

The anthropologist Sarah Hrdy, who studies, you know, primates and primate interactions, has this essay about getting off a flight where everybody stands up and everybody's, like, pissy and kind of hungry. And she's like, if this was any other species, like, she literally says, no one would leave with their testicles. Like, testicles would just be all over the place. This delta flay, like, on the chairs.

[Ryan Holiday]

We'd be killing each other.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

We'd be killing each other. And she's like, it is amazing that we have one, that we get to be in one of the few species that all that happens is somebody says a nasty thing to them, by and.

[Ryan Holiday]

Large, cooperate and coerce each other.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

So even in the o' Hare terribleness, you can find these moments of awe. But as we were just saying, it's hard. And it's hard in part because our mind is built with this negativity bias. We instantly go to the terrible things. It takes no work whatsoever to find how mad I am about o'. Hare. The flight's delayed, but it takes some work to notice the neutral stuff or the good stuff. But this is what I think that the kind of training and the practice is about, right, is that you build up the ability to do that better and better.

[Ryan Holiday]

I hope you've been enjoying my conversation with Ryan Holiday on the Daily Stoic podcast. We'll have even more after the break. The Happiness Lab is proudly sponsored by Amica Insurance. As Amica says, empathy is our best policy. That's why they'll go above and beyond to tailor your insurance coverage to best fit your needs. Whether you're on the road at home or traveling along life's journey, their friendly and knowledgeable representatives will work with you to ensure you have the right coverage in place. Amica will provide you with peace of mind. Go to amica.com and get a quote Today, American Military University is the number one provider of education to our military and veterans in the country. They offer something truly unique special rates and grants for the entire family, making education affordable not just for those who serve, but also for their loved ones. If you have a military or veteran family member and are looking for affordable, high quality education, AMU is the place for you. Visit AMU Apus Edumilitary to learn more. That's AMU Apus Edumilitary. One of the things that gives me joy every summer is growing a few pots of mini pumpkins on my side porch. Porch. I'm no gardener, but I'm always looking for good ways to help my baby pumpkins thrive. And that's why I was so excited to hear about mill. Mill is an effortless, odorless food recycler. What's a food recycler, you ask? Well, you know all those food scraps you toss into the garbage every time you cook? Or that random carton of takeout that's been in your fridge forever that you kind of need to toss out but you know it's going to be stinky. Well, with mill, you can take all that dead food food and turn it into something that's good for the planet and for pumpkins. Now that I have my own mill, I kind of love getting rid of all my scraps and that gives me the joy of knowing that I'm not hurting the planet with my waste. Less guilt and more joy. But my favorite thing about mill is that there's no smell. Like none at all. Mill makes it easy to do something good for the planet without the stink or the mess. Mill is the cleanest, easiest way to prevent food waste at home. It makes keeping Food out of the trash as easy as dropping it in. Go to mill.comthl for $75 off a mill.

Don't you think that's the challenge of our time, though, is like, how do you find in so much awfulness? How do you not let miserable, awful people, which we see on the headlines or in the headlines. Yeah, I could pick up my phone right now and change my mood negatively if I wanted to. How do you not let that make you miserable? How do you not like the stoics, talk about how the best revenge is to not be like that? How do you find happiness in profoundly unhappy times? That's the challenge.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Well, one of the insights I had because I think sometimes also people think an additional challenge of that is people think it's not moral to find happiness in those times. Right. How can you be the person that's looking away when you know the economy's falling apart, the climate's falling apart, the world's falling apart, like Europe, bad person. If you're not, like, the idea of. If you're not angry, you're not paying attention. Right. But this winds up being an interesting empirical question for nerdy psychologists like me that has a certain hypothesis which is, like, if you're not violently angry and very perturbed, in the stoic words about this, you're not doing anything about it. And this guy, Constantine Kushlev at Georgetown has been studying this. He actually goes out and asks, like, who are the people who are, like, showing up at a protest, for example, for, like, say, Black Lives Matter or Climate justice or something, something. And he finds it's actually the people who are experiencing the least negative emotion. And you kind of, when you reflect on it, you get that. You're like, oh, if I'm experiencing extreme negative emotion, like, I'm not getting out of bed. Like, I'm just under the duvet about, like, all the terrible things of Hope.

[Ryan Holiday]

To go to the protest.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Exactly. You think that there's some agency that you can take to fix it, and that. That. That set of findings has helped me a little bit because sometimes I kind of fall under that, like, how dare I not be upset at this? How dare I not be angry or sad or whatever? And that research suggests, like, actually, if you want the bandwidth to make a difference, you gotta go stoic and regulate some of your emotions so that you're noticing the bad things, but you're not affected, perturbed by them. Right. And in theory, that's gonna give you the psychological bandwidth to actually fix this stuff. So I've been helped by recognizing like, oh, it's not just not a bad thing to not be pissed off at all this stuff or participate in it to the point that it affects my emotions. It's actually the most effective thing I could do if what I wanna do is act better.

[Ryan Holiday]

Well, it all comes down to efficacy, right? Because if you are up against evil or powerful interests or intractable, you know, complex issues, the idea that you're gonna bring your best self while you're caught up in the passions, as the Stokes would say, is preposterous. No, it's precisely here that you need to be the most calm, the most in command of yourself. Because they're not gonna give you anything. Right. They want you to be angry. That's actually, I mean, part of the media strategy, as they have disclosed, is this idea of flooding the zone with shit, making everyone confused and overwhelmed, making them believe they're more powerful than they are, that the resistance is less powerful and the powers that be are more powerful to make you think it's not possible, that it's only going to get worse, and then you don't do anything. That's the whole point, is to make you irrational so you can't rationally solve for the actually somewhat solvable problems.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yeah. And I think that what the research really shows is that we're just much better at solving these problems when we are not be set by our emotions. Right. I mean, I think this is the thing you forget that like, you know, there's. There's other cute study by my former colleague Susan Nolan Huxima, where she looks at this idea that we sometimes assume that like, if I ruminate about this problem or I get really upset about it, if it's like really affecting me, then. Then I'll find a solution. Because I think we have this. We're not like masochists, like, wanting to be so upset about stuff. I think we think that this is the right thing to do to get to a good solution. But she has people either ruminate about a particular problem. These are a college student, so it's not like someone's not hanging out with you. It's like these problems that aren't, you know, world peace and these big things we're worried about. But she either has people ruminate about it or just distract yourself, just do something else to distract yourself when you're thinking about this problem. And then she has people go through optimal solutions and she finds that people who are ruminating, people who are thinking about it, getting so upset about it. They actually came up with the worst solutions. Then somebody who just distracted themselves and were like, I'm not gonna. And so this is, this is a sort of strategy I've taken with the current news cycle where there's. It's one thing to be informed, but it's another to be like destroyed by this stuff. And I think that like, what you actually need to do to get informed is not, is not as much as we think. It's not being on social media every day. Like you're going to hear about what's going on in 20 to 4 to 40 hours.

[Ryan Holiday]

I don't need any more information to let me know that what they're doing is criminal, that it's cruel, that it's stupid, that it violates most of the laws of economics. Also, like, I know this by now, right? Like, and this is also the fundamental idea from the ancients that character is fate. Like when you, like even if some of the ideas were good, the people who are trying to execute them are bad people doing them for, you know, motivated by bad reasons. So I'm opposed, right? So I don't need to follow this day to day. Like sometimes it can be helpful to look back historically. Like if in 1964 you sort of actually put some thought into what was happening in Vietnam and, and the bogus reasons we were there, you would go, yeah, we have no business being here and everything we do there is wrong. You didn't need to then follow it day to day for the next seven or eight years to update your opinion. Your opinion was correct from the outset, actually. You could be organizing, you could be moving, you could be running for office. There's a bunch of things you could do. But reading the day to day news reports is only going to make you despair.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And that was when it was day to day. Right. The problem is we like, I mean, you know, a gift to you. If you only look at this stuff like daily newspaper.

[Ryan Holiday]

Oh my God, that would be incredible.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yeah, I mean I often think about like, what would the stoics think about what we are? You know, just like the clickbaity headlines designed to like steal your emotions. They would be like, what, what have you done?

[Ryan Holiday]

Like about Marx, Rus, he's the head of this empire. So all the news, all the important, he, he's, it's all his purview. He would look at your and my information diet and be like, how do you manage? And he was running an empire of 50 million people in which information was essential. Right. And he'd be like, you're just getting minute to minute reports about, like, cabinet meetings. He'd be like, I mean, they tell me, like, I've been at the front for the last two years. They send me summaries, and I read them. Like, it's insane how much information. And if you're not an intelligence operative or a hedge fund manager, chances are you are doing nothing with this information but torturing you. You want to get just enough, and you want to have rooted it enough in psychology and history and philosophy that you can know what's what. You can know what's good, what's bad, what's cruel, what's immoral, et cetera. But I don't think you need. You don't need the minutes of these meetings. You're not in the Cabinet.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yeah. You know, and I think you need to notice how it's affecting you. This is why I always love, you know, stealing all the ancients and pulling them together. I think this was something that, you know, the Buddhists talked about a lot. Right. Is this idea of noticing every time I pick up my phone and go on blue sky, I leave with my, you know, my chest clenched. I'm like, ready to scream. You know, my husband's gonna talk to me. Like, it's like, oh, that wasn't good. But I think sometimes these things happen. Like, our emotions change so unconsciously, and then we can unconsciously affect other people. It's a real skill to be noticing what this stuff is doing to you. And so I think just notice, like, you know, did you get the information you wanted or is it making it better?

[Ryan Holiday]

Do you feel better after or worse?

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[Ryan Holiday]

I feel worse every time I do this. Why am I doing it over and over and over again expecting to feel differently?

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yeah.

[Ryan Holiday]

And it's time to, like, you know, what are the. I think sitting down and going, hey, what parts of my information die? It can I cut out? And again, that you have a duty to be an informed, participating citizen. But where is the proof that this is informing you or helping you participate? Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yeah. Catherine Price, who's been on my podcast, the happiness Lab a bunch, she has this lovely book called how to break up with your phone, where she kind of argues, you don't need to break up with your phone, but you need to take it to couples counseling for kind of situations like this with the news. She uses this acronym, she uses www whenever she tries to interact with her social media. Which stands for what for why now? And what else? Like, what was this for? Was there a purpose to it? Was I trying to check some effectoid about what was happening in the news, or was I just, like, sucked in? Right. Why now? And this is a kind of mindfulness mode. Like, what drew you in? Were you already a little anxious and that made you scroll even more? So you kind of, you know, created your own doom spiral.

[Ryan Holiday]

Frustrated, tired, bored.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Right. Like, all these things that if we were, you know, following the Stoics, we just find some other way to notice and find some way to do it. But the biggest one, what else? Right. There's an opportunity cost. Whenever you're spending your limited time, you know, moving up to your eventual, you know, death. Right. Like, doing this stuff. And, like, what, you know, what else could you be doing with that time that might fit with your higher ideals and your values better? And the acronym has kind of helped me because sometimes I'll. You know, you probably do this too. You just find yourself with your phone in your hand, you're midstream, and you're like, wait, www.I was being avoidant because I was avoiding some other problem. And now I'm anxious about this other thing. And, like, I could put this down and take a walk, or I could put this down and go talk to my husband or something.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah. My wife and I try to, like, when we see each other, you know, really getting sucked on the phone, we go, you don't want to be doing that. And we get like. And then as soon as you kind of break the trance, you're like, oh, yeah, but I'm stuck. Like, it was designed by the smartest people with the best technology for the same reason the casino doesn't have clocks or windows, and you just need someone to snap you out of the hypnosis a little bit, and then you can make a better new decision instead of just continuing the decision that you already made.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

I mean, that's another thing. I'm constantly thinking about what the Stoics would think about. You know, we just talked about, like, the information overload that we're all experiencing, the kind of fire hose. How the Stoics would be fascinated by the trance. Right. There's so much stuff now that sucks us into a trance. And I think, you know, the Buddhists had a different take on that, which is, like, you want to be present in the. The trance is bad for that reason. I think the Stoics think the trance causes you to miss out on so many positive emotions and often is indirectly sucking you into lots of negative emotions, too.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yes. Yeah. Anything that, like, had power over you, they would have been very skeptical of. So you're like, I can't not do this thing. They'd be like, well, this is stuff.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yeah, you gotta get away from that.

[Ryan Holiday]

So you have the memento mori ring, and then what's the other bracelet?

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

So the other bracelet, which actually my producer Ryan, who's my co writer for my podcast the Happiness Lab, gave me, is. It's an arrow with two arrow points that goes around as a bracelet. Sometimes it stabs me because it's very sharp, but that's reminding me the parable of the second arrow, which comes from the Buddhist. So if you don't know it, Buddha is talking to his followers, and he asks his followers, if you're walking down the street and someone shoots you with an arrow, is that bad? And the followers are like, yeah, kind of. Seems like that sucks. Like, so Buddha says, okay, imagine you're walking down the street, Someone shoots you with the first arrow, but then they also, immediately after that, shoot you. The second arrow, too, is. The second arrow is at work. The followers are like, yeah, it sucks twice as much to get shot by a second arrow. The Buddha says, first arrow is the circumstances of life. That's your car doesn't start. That's you break your knee. That's your o' hare up. When your flight's delayed, you don't have any control over that. That's the world shooting with the arrow. But the second arrow is usually the one you shoot yourself with. That's that. I get really pissed off at the, you know, the delayed flight. I'm angry, and I'm pissy at my husband when I break my knee or whatever it is, and he's lost. Like, you don't have any control over that first arrow, but the second arrow you are shooting yourself with. And in my case, in the worst moments, it's not just the second arrow. It's like a 16th and a 17th arrow. Because, like, you know, I've, like, you know, somebody at work does something stupid, Hours later, I'm talking to a friend. I'm like, oh, my God, I can't believe that person did that. And it's like the person's action is done. This is hours later. And so it's a Buddhist parable in a Buddhist tradition. But I think it fits so much with the Stoics. It's like, the one arrow, let that go because, like, you can't control it. You know, ignore it, deal with it. But the second arrow, it's on you. You definitely can. Can Control that one. And so for me, that's been really helpful. Is like, is. Is this the first arrow or is this the second arrow? Sometimes my producer Ryan, who gave me the thing. Well, if I'm complaining about something over text, he's based in London, so we're often texting each other. He'll text me another arrow, archery, emoji, arjury, obdr. And I'm like, okay, fair enough. Shut up. I'm moving on.

[Ryan Holiday]

Well, Epictetus said, you know, it's not things that upset us. It's our opinion about things. And our opinion about things is the second era. Right? It happened. It is bad. It happened. I'm harmed by it. It happened because that person is an asshole and they purposely targeted me. That's the second Arrow stuff. The. The story we tell ourselves about it. I'll never recover, et cetera.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And it's so amazing just how differently you feel when you change the story. Story. My father in law passed away recently, and everything was discombobulated, and it was like we weren't doing stuff. And I found myself remembering that, like, hey, this is a possibility in people's lives. People die. And was at like, a parking lot or something, and somebody, like, pulled into my space, and my instant reaction, other than like, that person's jerk was whatever was like, maybe a family member of theirs died. It was just, like, in the possibility space for me. And that just, like, changed my reaction to everything. Like, instead of being pissy, I had, like, compassion. I'm like, oh, my gosh, cut in line, you know, do that. This thing. And that just feels so different. But it really was just like a slight change in the possibility space of which handle I was grabbing to interpret this event. And you just realize that's possible for you all the time.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah, in a way, some of our grief is the second arrow. Not that we're sad that we lost them.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

This is the one. I have to say, it's like, I get it. I know the Stoics are right. But like, wow, is this one hard? Like, your kid dies, you're like, well, it wasn't really mine in the first place. Moving on. No, that's not what I mean.

[Ryan Holiday]

Because I feel like the grief of just loss is unavoidable and a fact. Right. I don't think any of the Stoics were like, oh, they were mortal when I met them. I don't think anyone's actually doing that. Right. And I'm not sure it's healthy to do that. But the decision to say Be haunted by the memory of this person is a loss on top of the loss. So while they were alive, every time you thought of them, it was positive, right? And when you saw them, it was positive. And now they're gone. And, you know, you think of the anniversary of their death or, you know, every time. Every once in a while, like, I think about how many dead people are on my phone.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Oh, yeah, right.

[Ryan Holiday]

Because I type in the letter C and then, oh, shit, I forgot. But the feeling of, like, sadness, loss, bitterness, whatever. I could also feel joy and love and gratitude. And so there's this second, and Seneca talks about this in one of his consolation essays, where he's like, do you think your father would want you to break down in sadness every time you think of him? That would have been like. If as he was leaving life, he was like, by the way, your memory's gonna haunt your daughter. He'd be like, no, that's the worst thing. All anyone would want is to be remembered fondly and be a positive, ongoing sort of energy in your life. And that is. We don't have total control of that, especially right as it happens. But as time goes by, I think you get to choose whether how you think about that memory and what that death means to you.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And I think the Stoics were kind of hedging against a certain form of that grief, which is like, I didn't do right by that person. I didn't spend time with them. Right. Like, in theory, they're hedging against the regret of what happened so that, you know, when a person you care about passes, you're like, I recognize they were mortal the whole time. No, I'm not grieving, but I don't regret what I did when they were alive. I spent the time that I could have spent with them. I invested as much. Like, you know, I'm washing my hands of the regret part of it. And that. That does feel like a different way to grieve, I think.

[Ryan Holiday]

And they're certainly not holding onto the grudge. Yeah, they're dead. So, like, I'm not sure they want you to be. Like, I should have called more. They have let that go. You probably can, too.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yeah. But if you do it in advance, then everybody, then it's happy all the way through.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah. But, yeah, the second arrow of like, okay, you lost them too soon, and now you feel guilty all the time. You did lose them too soon, and you could have done better, but the decision to wake up today and feel like a piece of shit about that's the second arrow or third arrow or fourth arrow.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

That's right. And recognize the second arrow is on you sort of, you know, like, two things. Right. Like, this is in the second category. This is a thing that you can control, and it might be hard and it might take some work, but you actually can change your opinion about it.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah. Fate took them from you, but you are taking this out on yourself.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yes. Yeah. That's a very Stoic way to reinterpret from the Seguero. Yeah.

[Ryan Holiday]

No, it's so beautiful how. And, like, I do know there's a couple Stoic, like, archery lessons. I mean, they just had the same technology and they were alive at the same time.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Well, I was wondering, like, it's just people getting shot with arrows all over the place in Buddhist day. It's like, what was going on in, like, these ancient times.

[Ryan Holiday]

I know both the Stoics and the Buddhists use that, like, muddy water one. And so you're just like, even the metaphors are the same.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yeah.

[Ryan Holiday]

Like, they're just coming on the same essential truths. And it's very rare that you come across any of the philosophical schools, and you're like, this is something totally different than any of the others. And to go to the earlier point, this totally contradicts all the science about this subject.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Well, I was saying the Buddhist. There are these cases where I like the Buddhists better than the Stoics. Here's a case where I like the Stoics better than a Buddhist, which is that the Buddhists were, like, really into the idea of suffering, not into it. Like, you should get it. Just like, it is inevitable. It is there. It is centered. And I think the Stoics were like. Like, yeah, there's the perturbations, but, like, it's number two. Like, it's. These are conceptually. These are two distinct categories. So whereas the Buddhists were like, the central is suffering, and then you got to do the stuff around it. The Stoics were like, I don't know, man. These are two categories, and we could kind of think about them differently. And so that's always given me a little bit more hope.

[Ryan Holiday]

I also think, you know, living in Western civilization, there's something about the Stoics that is not just familiar, but. But sort of practical in the sense where it's like, somebody's gotta run for office. Somebody's gotta man the sewers, you know? Like, I think Buddhism is a more spiritual and sort of individualistic pursuit. And there's something about Stoic philosophy that Is like, okay, but this will work for society.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ryan Holiday]

Not a. Not a band of roving monks.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yeah. I mean, the Stoics were like the og, like, advice column, self help, you know, like it was gonna be like, not in the posh, like, you know, like, books and stuff. Like it was going to be in whatever the, like, tabloid magazine, TikTok video of the time was going to be, minus the terrible algorithmic stuff.

[Ryan Holiday]

But yeah, I think the Buddhists and the cynics are closer to each other in the sense where they're like, this is all bullshit, man. You know, and the Stoics are like a little. Some of it is.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

But like, dude, you gotta get through your day, you know?

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like you. You have a kid and they're hungry, so how are you gonna feed them? You know, there's just like, there's a sort of. This is life. This is the human organism we were born into. And we have to figure out how to operate collectively in this city that we live in.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And there's like positive emotion on the other side of that. Right. There's like these kind of opportunities for growth or humor and all these things we were talking about.

[Ryan Holiday]

Well, this is awesome. You want to check out some books real fast?

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yeah, please. Let's do it.

[Ryan Holiday]

Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on itunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it and I'll see you next episode.

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