Top 5: How to Act Like an Extrovert

Summary

The Happiness Lab with Dr. Laurie Santos: Episode Summary

Episode Title: Top 5: How to Act Like an Extrovert
Release Date: November 25, 2024

---

Introduction: Celebrating Five Years of Happiness Lab

In this special milestone episode, Dr. Laurie Santos and her producer, Ryan Dilley, commemorate five years of "The Happiness Lab" by revisiting five of their favorite episodes. The focus of this episode is on the groundbreaking discussion from 2023 titled “Introvert’s Guide to Extroversion.” This episode explores the intersection of personality traits and the science of happiness, particularly how introverts can harness extroverted behaviors to enhance their well-being.

---

Revisiting “Introvert’s Guide to Extroversion”

Timestamp: [02:14]

Ryan Dilley introduces the episode, highlighting its popularity and the mixed reactions it received, especially from introverts who felt targeted. Dr. Santos clarifies that the episode aimed to showcase the benefits of social connections, even for those who might not naturally gravitate toward them.

Notable Quote:
Dr. Laurie Santos: “We were showing the benefits of social connection, even for folks who have personalities that might not really resonate with social connection.” [02:35]

---

Guest Spotlight: Jessica Pan’s Journey

Timestamp: [04:01]

Jessica Pan, author of the book “Social,” shares her personal experiences growing up as an introvert. She discusses the challenges she faced in social settings, such as feeling out of place during her college years and struggling with anxiety in social interactions.

Notable Quote:
Jessica Pan: “I walked in, there was, like, 50 people staring at me, and I burst into tears. It was my worst nightmare.” [04:33]

---

Understanding Introversion and Its Impact on Happiness

Timestamp: [05:13]

Dr. Santos delves into the definition of introversion as per the American Psychological Association, emphasizing the internal focus of introverts versus the external orientation of extroverts. She explains how societal misconceptions about introversion can lead to reduced well-being among introverted individuals.

Notable Quote:
Dr. Laurie Santos: “Psychologists have long assumed that these so-called big five personality traits are stable.” [10:00]

---

Sonja Lyubomirski’s Research on Personality and Happiness

Timestamp: [08:40]

Dr. Santos introduces Sonja Lyubomirski, a professor at the University of California, Riverside, who has conducted extensive research on the science of happiness. Lyubomirski’s study focused on whether introverts could increase their happiness by adopting more extroverted behaviors.

Key Insights:

• Volitional Personality Change: Lyubomirski posits that personality traits, such as introversion, can be altered through deliberate behavior changes.
• Study Findings: Participants instructed to act more extroverted reported significant boosts in happiness, while those asked to behave more introverted experienced reduced well-being.

Notable Quote:
Sonja Lyubomirski: “We found that both introverts and extroverts, during the week that they were asked to act more extroverted, got hugely happier.” [12:35]

---

Jessica Pan’s Year-Long Extroversion Experiment

Timestamp: [13:31]

Inspired by Lyubomirski’s findings, Jessica Pan embarks on a transformative journey to act extroverted for an entire year. This experiment forms the crux of her book and serves as a practical application of psychological research on happiness.

Key Milestones:

1. Asking Stupid Questions: Under the guidance of psychotherapist Stefan Hoffman, Jessica engages in awkward social interactions to confront her fears.

   • Notable Quote:
     Jessica Pan: “I thought, look, I'm not that happy right now in my life and I'm a hardcore introvert. What would happen if I lived like the other half of the world?” [14:02]

2. Deepening Conversations: With insights from behavioral scientist Nicholas Epley, Jessica learns to initiate deeper, more meaningful conversations beyond superficial topics.

   • Notable Quote:
     Nicholas Epley: “People will make connections that they didn't anticipate if they push past their initial discomfort.” [25:23]

3. Public Speaking and Comedy: Jessica challenges herself by taking a comedy class and performing at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival, facing public embarrassment but gaining resilience.

Notable Quote:
Jessica Pan: “I could visibly see the difference in people's faces. They were having that dopamine hit too, because we were connecting, we were laughing, we were bonding over something.” [26:22]

---

Expert Insights: Overcoming Social Anxiety

Timestamp: [17:18]

Stefan Hoffman discusses the importance of exposure therapy in overcoming social fears. He emphasizes that facing fears head-on can lead to significant personal growth and increased happiness.

Nicholas Epley’s Contributions:

• Research on Social Connection: Epley highlights studies showing that forced social interactions often lead to greater happiness than solitary experiences.
• Misconceptions About Social Interactions: People typically underestimate how enjoyable and fulfilling deep conversations can be.

Notable Quote:
Nicholas Epley: “That's not what people's experience actually is.” [21:52]

---

Outcomes and Lessons Learned

Timestamp: [34:06]

After a year of deliberately practicing extroverted behaviors, Jessica Pan reflects on her transformation. She notes increased social connections, reduced anxiety, and overall enhanced happiness. Importantly, she clarifies that while she remains fundamentally introverted, adopting some extroverted habits has enriched her life without compromising her true self.

Key Takeaways:

• Balance Between Introversion and Extroversion: Embracing extroverted behaviors can coexist with an introverted nature, leading to better mental health and satisfaction.
• Deep Conversations Enhance Connections: Moving beyond shallow talk fosters genuine relationships and personal fulfillment.
• Personal Growth Through Vulnerability: Being open and taking social risks can lead to significant personal development and happiness.

Notable Quote:
Jessica Pan: “I had more friends, I had less anxiety. It feels like this small little village in central London. I was a lot happier by the end of the year.” [34:22]

---

Practical Tips for Acting Extroverted

Timestamp: [33:01]

Dr. Santos and Jessica Pan offer actionable strategies for introverts seeking to incorporate more extroverted behaviors into their lives:

1. Breaking Avoidance Cycles: Attend social events early to avoid feeling excluded by established groups.

   • Jessica Pan: “If you show up early, it's not as scary.” [33:19]

2. Engaging in Deep Conversations: Initiate meaningful discussions that go beyond surface-level topics.

   • Jessica Pan: “It's sharing our human experience of struggling and loneliness.” [25:23]

3. Self-Compassion and Patience: Acknowledge initial discomfort and give oneself time to adjust to new social behaviors.

   • Jessica Pan: “Like after you break the ice with one person, it's not as scary with the second one.” [33:40]

4. Making the First Move: Take the initiative in social interactions, such as waving or starting a conversation.

   • Nicholas Epley: “You have to be the first person to make a move.” [23:59]

---

Conclusion: Embracing Social Connections for Greater Happiness

Timestamp: [34:35]

Dr. Santos concludes that regardless of personality type, everyone can benefit from increased social interactions. By stepping out of comfort zones and fostering deeper connections, individuals can significantly enhance their happiness and overall well-being.

Final Thoughts:

• Everyone Can Connect: Social connection is a universal pathway to happiness, accessible to both introverts and extroverts.
• Personal Growth Through Practice: Deliberately adopting new social behaviors can lead to lasting positive changes.
• Encouragement to Listen and Connect: Dr. Santos encourages listeners to push themselves socially to experience the associated happiness benefits.

Notable Quote:
Dr. Laurie Santos: “Why not push yourself and get a little more social? You could talk to a local cashier or a barista, or the person sitting next to you on your commute.” [35:38]

---

Closing Remarks

This episode of "The Happiness Lab" provides a compelling blend of scientific research and personal narrative, illustrating that even those who identify as introverts can cultivate extroverted behaviors to improve their happiness. Through Jessica Pan’s year-long experiment and the expertise of psychologists like Sonja Lyubomirski and Nicholas Epley, listeners gain valuable insights and practical strategies to enhance their social interactions and overall well-being.

---

Note: Advertisements and non-content segments have been excluded to focus solely on the episode's core discussions and insights.

Transcript

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Hello. Hello there. This is Malcolm Gladwell from Revisionist History. In a world full of ordinary, there's a brand that dares to be different. A sleek design that makes every driveway feel like a Runway. Feel the rush of precision engineering as power meets sophistication with every turn. It's not just a drive, it's an experience, a symphony of performance and refinement harmonizing on the open road. When you're behind the wheel, the question isn't where you're going, but how incredible the journey can be. So buckle up and embrace the extraordinary. Because when the road calls, only one answer will do. BMW, the ultimate driving machine. Learn more@BMW USA.com Amazon One Medical presents.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Painful Thoughts I could catch anything sitting in this doctor's waiting room. A kid just wiped his runny nose.

[Jessica Pan]

On my jacket and the guy next.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

To me sitting in a pool of perspiration insists on sharing my armrest.

[Nicholas Epley]

Next time, make an appointment with an Amazon One medical provider. There's no waiting and no sweaty guy. Amazon One Medical Healthcare just got less painful.

[Ryan Dilley]

The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum compared to previous generations. IPhone XS are later required charge time and actual results will vary.

[Sonja Lyubomirski]

Pushkin.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

We've been celebrating five years of the Happiness Lab by resurfacing five of my favorite episodes of the show. We've already gone all the way back to when we started out in 2019, but this final episode brings us nearly up to date, and my producer, Ryan Dilley, has it ready to go. Ryan, what's episode number five?

[Ryan Dilley]

So this is from 2023, and it's called the Introvert's Guide to Extroversion.

[Jessica Pan]

So.

[Ryan Dilley]

So why do you want me to get this one out?

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Oh, this is one of my favorites because it's also about the benefits of social connection, even for people who might not think they get a lot of benefit out of social connection.

[Ryan Dilley]

It was a really popular episode, as I remember, and did really well in terms of downloads, but it also prompted lots of complaints. Why do you think that was?

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Well, I think introverts really felt that we were attacking them, but that wasn't really the case. All we were doing was showing the benefits of social connection, even for folks who have personalities that might not really resonate with social connection. We got to interview this lovely guest.

[Sonja Lyubomirski]

Jessica Pan, who talked about her book social.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Sorry I'm late.

[Sonja Lyubomirski]

I didn't want to come.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

The Introvert's Guide to Extroverting.

[Sonja Lyubomirski]

And she did this lovely experiment where, as an introvert, she tried engaging in a little bit more extroverted activities for a whole year. And she found there were many more.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Happiness benefits than she expected.

[Ryan Dilley]

I mean, this is a subject really dear to my heart. I've always been quite nervous about talking to new people. I don't even like doing this recording now, but I work really hard to try and overcome some of that. I think it's been really good for me.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Yeah.

[Ryan Dilley]

I was wondering if your behavior has changed because of this episode at all.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Oh, for sure. As you know, I'm not the kind of person that tends to talk to people, but in part because of this, I've realized that, like, there are many more benefits than even I expected. And so it's definitely been something that's affected how I act in the world.

[Sonja Lyubomirski]

And I hope it might give our listeners some food for thought as well.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And so here is the last episode.

[Sonja Lyubomirski]

In our birthday celebration reruns, the Introvert's Guide to Extroversion.

[Jessica Pan]

I feel like college was a real struggle for me.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

This is author Jessica Pan.

[Jessica Pan]

I always felt like when, you know, college kids would go out and party or go to clubs, I thought we were all secretly waiting to, like, come home and then, you know, get in our pajamas.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Jessica had many close friends in college, but she couldn't always relate to how outgoing her buddies were. Her besties seemed to seek out noisy parties and busy dance floors. But Jessica was much more at home with small gatherings and intimate conversations. Jessica's friends adored her, but they couldn't always relate to her preferences and just assumed Jessica would want to go big to celebrate. When she turned 22, they threw me.

[Jessica Pan]

This surprise birthday party.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Friends and family members gathered secretly and waited in Jessica's dark bedroom, ready to pop out and scream as soon as she got home.

[Jessica Pan]

And I walked in, there was, like, 50 people staring at me, and I burst into tears. It was my worst nightmare. That's one of the times I felt very much like, okay, I am slightly different from my extroverted friends.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

But it wasn't just those extroverted friends. Jessica also felt different from the people she grew up with.

[Jessica Pan]

I often say that my parents are like, the two chattiest people in America because they absolutely love talking to strangers. To the Point where it is embarrassing. You'll be in line for a restaurant, or you'll be on the plane or anywhere, and my mom is talking to someone, and then my dad's joining in in there. It's just. I don't know. They're the complete opposite of me.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Jessica knew her social needs differed from the people around her, but she wasn't sure why.

[Jessica Pan]

So when I was growing up, the labels introvert and extrovert, they were not these buzzy terms that everybody knew about. So I'd never heard of them. And I think I found out in my 20s what an introvert was, and I immediately recognized myself.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

The American Psychological association defines introversion as an orientation towards the internal, private world of one's inner thoughts and feelings rather than toward the outer world of people. Compared to extroverts, introverts are more withdrawn, reserved, quiet, and deliberate.

[Jessica Pan]

Someone who concentrates really well, is a good listener, likes to be alone, gets exhausted and overstimulated by lots of people. And I felt really seen by that definition. I would never raise my hand in a class. That would never happen. I would fake sick if there was a presentation I had to give. I think I got a solo to sing in a choir. And I didn't tell my mom about it, and I just pretended that I had a fever. I don't even think she knows about that to this day.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And so Jessica began referring to herself as an introvert with a capital I. It quickly became a badge of honor.

[Jessica Pan]

But I began to use that label of introvert as an excuse to say no to anything that gave me any sort of social anxiety.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Jessica sat out important social events, even ones that she knew might be good for her or for her career.

[Jessica Pan]

I didn't want to give speeches. I didn't want to host parties. I didn't want to lead workshops, because I thought to myself, no, I'm an introvert. Introverts don't do things like that. And I was completely limiting who I was and who I could become.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

At times, Jessica did question what she was passing up. Like the time she went to a friend's wedding.

[Jessica Pan]

The bride stood up and she gave this amazing speech, and she was crying and her parents were crying. And I felt like, why didn't I give a speech at my wedding? And I didn't do it because I was too anxious. I was scared I would not sound articulate. I would scared that I wouldn't look good. I was scared that I embarrass myself when actually I wish I had done that because I think the benefits could have tremendously outweighed the negative consequences.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

But the negative consequences of Jessica's introversion became even clearer when she and her husband moved to London.

[Jessica Pan]

It's notoriously not the most friendly place in the entire world, and it's hard to make friends as an adult. And also, I was a freelancer, so I was working from home. So it seemed absolutely impossible to make these connections and get out of my shell.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And that was when Jessica decided to embark on an innovative personal experiment. One that wound up changing her life forever.

[Jessica Pan]

I was thinking, if I really want to commit to this, I have to do this.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

If you've listened to other episodes in this new season on getting more social, then you've probably already heard about the benefits of connecting with other people. Pretty much every study ever done on the relationship between well being and social interaction shows that more people time makes us happier. But what if you, like Jessica, dread parties and crowds and spontaneous conversations with strangers? Are you doomed to less happiness than your more talkative friends? Or is there a way that the introverts among us can also get the happiness benefits that come from more social connection? Our minds are constantly telling us what to do to be happy. But what if our minds are wrong? What if our minds are lying to us, leading us away from what will really make us happy? The good news is that understanding the science of the mind can point us all back in the right direction. You're listening to the Happiness Lab with Dr. Laurie Santos.

[Stefan Hoffman]

Hi, Laurie. I'm having trouble connecting my mic, so give me just a sec.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

I wanted to unpack what psychologists have learned about the science of introversion and the unintended consequences it can have for our happiness. And that meant there was one person in the field I really needed to call.

[Stefan Hoffman]

My computer's rejecting the Bluetooth connection.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Sonja Lyubomirski is a professor at the University of California at Riverside. She's the author of the how of a new approach to getting the life you want. Sonia is a world expert on the science of happiness, so not surprisingly, she's very much in demand.

[Stefan Hoffman]

I've been crazy busy, so I'm like, this is like, I don't even have time to say hi. Like I'm going from one meeting to another.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

I was super grateful that Sonia made time for us and that she put up with a few technical problems.

[Stefan Hoffman]

Can you keep talking? It's working out great.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

In order to share a key finding from her decades of work in positive.

[Stefan Hoffman]

Psychology, after many years of research, we landed on this cliche which is that the key to happiness is really connection. And so if you want to increase happiness, you want to make people feel.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

More connected, it really is that simple. You will be happier if you interact with more people, even if you're an introvert.

[Stefan Hoffman]

What's interesting is quite a few studies have shown that actually both extroverts and introverts benefit by more social interaction.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Most introverts predict that social interaction will feel exhausting, anxiety provoking and crummy. So they don't engage in this activity nearly as much as extroverts do. And the science shows that this choice can have big negative consequences for introverts. Happiness research since the 1980s has shown that on average, introverts are less happy than extroverts, presumably because they consistently miss out on the well being benefits that social connection provides. But that leads to an even bigger problem. Because introversion isn't just some flippant label we throw on when we don't feel like going to a party. Introversion is one of the five core dimensions that make up our personalities. The other four being openness, conscientiousness, agreeableness, and neuroticism. Psychologists have long assumed that these so called big five personality traits are stable. They don't change all that much across our lifetimes or across different situations. If you were outgoing and the center of attention as a teenager, then psychologists would assume that you're still likely to be extroverted decades later. But if you spent your teen years like Jessica Pan, wishing you could run home to be a alone well, most psychologists would probably assume that you're unlikely to be a social butterfly today. But does that mean that introverts are doomed by their personality, destined never to share the joy of connection that extroverts take for granted? Sonia didn't think so.

[Stefan Hoffman]

What is a trait is basically behavior, you know, like when you do something over and over again. If I'm like always making my bed and I'm organized and I'm always on time, people say, oh, Sonia's high conscientiousness. But if you're not high in conscientiousness, theoretically you can try to make your meetings on time and make your bed every morning. And so the same thing for extraversion.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Sonia reasoned that introverts could engage in what she called volitional personality change. If they simply behaved in a more extroverted way. Maybe they could reap the happiness benefits that come with having a more extroverted personality. To test this theory, Sonia teamed up with her graduate student, Seth Margolis. And recruited over 100 college students to take part in a new study. Some of these students were naturally introverted, whereas others were more extroverted. But all of the subjects were randomly divided into two groups. The first group was told that for the next week they needed to be as talkative, assertive and spontaneous as possible. Essentially, they had to act extroverted. But the second group was told to do just the opposite. They were asked to act as deliberate, quiet and reserved as possible. They were going to be more introverted. Both groups then filled out surveys to measure their overall well being and how much positive emotion they experienced over the week. So what did Sonya find?

[Stefan Hoffman]

We found that both introverts and extroverts, during the week that they were asked to act more extroverted, got hugely happier.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Sonja says the boost in happiness she observed in this be more extroverted condition was one of the largest effects she's observed in decades of studying happiness interventions. But just as acting more extroverted had a significant upside, Sonia also observed an effect of doing the opposite. Subjects who were asked to act reserved and shy showed statistically reduced levels of, well being. Acting introverted for a week appears to significantly reduce our happiness. But Sonja says the most shocking finding from her study, especially for researchers in the field of personality psychology, was that subjects were able to do what she asked them to. People could change their personality traits if they tried, at least for short periods of time. And that finding was very good news to author and introvert Jessica Pan.

[Jessica Pan]

I was like, oh, so we can change. We don't always have to be the same. And yeah, I found that really freeing.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

When we last left Jessica, she was sad and lonely in her new life in the uk. And that's when she began reading about the psychology of introverts and happened upon Sonia's new study. Learning that people could volitionally change their personality traits led Jessica to try something radical.

[Jessica Pan]

I thought, look, I'm not that happy right now in my life and I'm a hardcore introvert. What would happen if I lived like the other half of the world? What could I gain from that?

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Jessica decided to begin her own experiment. But rather than behaving more spontaneously and assertively for just a week, as Sonia's subjects had done, Jessica pledged to act like an extrovert for an entire year. Her 12 month journey turned into a new book. Sorry I'm late. I didn't want to. One introvert's year of saying yes and Jessica's big year of saying yes didn't just involve becoming a bit more talkative. Jessica committed to trying out some of the most terrifying social encounters possible.

[Jessica Pan]

Talking to strangers, public speaking, doing improv comedy, things like that that were my nightmares.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And as you'll hear when we get back from the break, Jessica found that pushing herself to make every social connection possible required getting more vulnerable than even she expected.

[Jessica Pan]

I would need to just go for it and embarrass myself again and again and again.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

The Happiness Lab will be right back.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

This year at Pushkin, we've been able to work with some of the world's biggest brands on creating bespoke content. Whether it's a custom episode in partnership with a brand or a creative ad campaign, we want to be sure that our content reaches people. But the ad space is incredibly noisy. How do we ensure our content reaches the right audience? That's where LinkedIn ads come in. With LinkedIn ads, you can precisely reach professionals who are more likely to find your ad relevant. As you will have direct access to a billion members, 130 million decision makers and 10 million C level executives, you can target your audience by job title, industry, company and more, ensuring your ads reach the right people for your business. Start building the right relationships and reach your audience in a respectful environment with LinkedIn ads. We'll even give you a $100 credit on your next LinkedIn ads campaign. Go to LinkedIn.com Malcolm to claim your credit. That's LinkedIn.com Malcolm Terms and conditions apply.

[Sonja Lyubomirski]

I'm Dr. Laurie Santos from the Happiness Lab. Intuit QuickBooks wants you to achieve your dreams of starting your own business and working for yourself. And if you're a small business owner launching a company, then you'll want to check out Mind the Small Business success stories from iHeartMedia's Ruby Studio and Intuit QuickBooks. Season one and two are out now and season three is launching Thursday, January 9th with new episodes coming out every other Thursday after that. So make sure you catch up and listen. As hosts Austin Hankwitz and Janice Torres talk to small business owners about how they've grown and maintained their businesses and tackled the hurdles and challenges that come with being your own boss. From tracking money in and out to cutting through day to day management with an all encompassing platform like Intuit QuickBooks, you don't want to miss these inspiring stories of small business journeys. Listen to Mind the Business Small Business Success Stories on the iHeart app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jessica Pan]

So I had this massive fear of talking to strangers. I just couldn't do it.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Introvert Jessica Pan was ready for an entire year of extroverting. But where should she start? Jessica figured that some expert advice might help. Her first call went out to psychotherapist and Boston University professor Stefan Hoffman.

[Jessica Pan]

He specializes in exposure therapy. So he'll have his patients do really humiliating things like stand on the street and just sing or ask someone on the subway for like $200. Things where they are guaranteed to be rejected.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Jessica explained to Stefan that she was terrified of putting herself out there, especially with people she didn't know.

[Jessica Pan]

If I was approaching a stranger, my heart would race. I'd feel like I was going to throw up. I just had so much anxiety around it.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Stefan didn't advocate baby steps. He wanted Jessica to dive headfirst into the social deep end.

[Jessica Pan]

And he said, okay, so you live in London and you're scared of strangers. So what I would have you do is I would have you ask a really stupid question to a stranger. I would have you go up to somebody and say, excuse me, is there a Queen of England? And if so, what's her name? And as soon as he said this, I wanted to throw up. And I was thinking, there's no way I'm going to do that.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Stefan was making Jessica ask strangers pretty much the dumbest question you could pose to a Londoner. Because back then, everyone knew that there was in fact a Queen of England and her name was Elizabeth. It was an encounter that was set up to make Jessica look as stupid as possible. But as Stefan explained, that was kind of the point.

[Jessica Pan]

Look, you know, no one's going to fire you, you're not going to get arrested, your husband's not going to leave you, you're not going to get thrown in jail, so you're just going to look a little bit stupid.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And to compound her discomfort, Jessica headed to one of London's least welcoming locations.

[Jessica Pan]

So I think one of the most awkward places to talk to a stranger in London is on the underground, because people, they don't want to be bothered.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Jessica was ready to push herself, just like Stefan had advised. So she sought out the least approachable stranger she could find. She picked a busy looking businessman in an expensive suit.

[Jessica Pan]

I was like, excuse me? And he was like, what? And I said, is there a Queen of England? And he was like, the Queen of England? And I said, yeah, who is she? And he said, it's Victoria. And then he walked off.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

That wasn't the answer she was expecting. Victoria hadn't been queen for over a hundred years. Was the man mocking Jessica giving a stupid answer to her stupid question. Jessica wasn't sure, so she flagged down another scary looking businessman and posed the same question again.

[Jessica Pan]

And he also said Victoria. And I didn't know know if it was they were just messing with me or what was happening. But then I flagged down a few more women and they told me it was Elizabeth.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Looking idiotic in front of total strangers in a noisy, dirty subway station might not sound like fun, especially for an introvert. But the experience left Jessica feeling elated.

[Jessica Pan]

I felt like I could fly. I felt insanely exhilarated because it was so embarrassing and there were other people listening. It was my worst fear. And Stefan was right. Nothing bad happened.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

To take her extroverting to the next level, Jessica tagged in yet another expert, one who may sound kind of familiar if you've listened to other episodes in this special season.

[Jessica Pan]

Should I call him Nick? Or what should I call him?

[Nicholas Epley]

I'm Nicholas Epley. You can call me Nick.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Nick is a professor of behavioral science at the University of Chicago's Booth School of Business.

[Jessica Pan]

I had read his research that said that when two commuters are forced to talk to each other, they are happier than they would have anticipated.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

You might remember this study from an episode we ran in our very first season entitled Mistakenly Seeking Solitude. In the experiment, Nick found passengers who were about to hop on a train from the Chicago suburbs on their way to work.

[Nicholas Epley]

We gave them an envelope that had a $5 Starbucks gift card in it, which turns out to be the most valuable incentive that we know on the planet. People will do anything for a $5 Starbucks gift card, including talk to strangers on trains.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Nick then told one group to spend the entire train ride enjoying their solitude. They weren't allowed to talk to anyone, which is pretty much what most of us usually do.

[Nicholas Epley]

And almost nobody talks to strangers on the train.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

But Nick asked a second group of commuters to do something a little more radical. They had to spend the entire train ride talking to someone.

[Nicholas Epley]

We asked them to try to make a connection with the person who sits down next to you this morning on the train, try to get to know something about him or her. So they were going to have a.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Conversation after the ride. Nick surveyed the commuters to find out how they were all feeling. The results were striking. People who were forced to spend their entire train ride talking to strangers felt happier than the ones that were told to enjoy their solitude.

[Jessica Pan]

When I first read that research, I was like, what is he talking about? That sounds insane to me.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Nick says that Jessica's not the only one with that reaction.

[Nicholas Epley]

I get a lot of pushback on this because the expectations are so strong.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Nick has even tested these mistaken expectations directly in a second study. Subjects were asked which would feel better, talking to some random stranger on the train or just enjoying the ride in silence. People overwhelmingly thought that being in the talkative condition would suck. They predicted the exact opposite of what Nick's results showed. Like Jessica, most of us think that connecting with strangers will feel awkward, but we're wrong.

[Nicholas Epley]

That's not what people's experience actually is.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Nick's subjects also mispredicted how much the stranger they chatted with would enjoy the experience of being talked to.

[Nicholas Epley]

That is, they underestimated how social other people were. And notice that belief then becomes a kind of self fulfilling prophecy. If I think, Laurie, you don't want to talk to me, then you know, I'll sit down next to you at a conference, say, I won't talk to you. You will sit there and will not talk to me. You'll look to me and because I'm not talking to you, you will infer that I'm not interested in talking to you either. And we'll both then sit there in silence next to each other and we will both then confirm our expectations that talking to you would have been unpleasant. We don't ever get data that would tell us that those beliefs are wrong because we don't try it.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

But author Jessica Pan was ready to try it. She met with Nick and quickly realized that he really practices what he preaches.

[Jessica Pan]

Nicholas has no issue talking to strangers.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Nick talks with people on trains and planes and buses. He chit chats with waiters and baristas in cafes and cashiers at his local grocery store.

[Nicholas Epley]

We know all of them now, often by name. They know our kids and that's fun. Once you start the conversation, it's pretty easy to make it go. That's not hard. It's starting it that's hard. It's like a speed bump at the top of a hill and you have to get over this speed bump to actually get things going.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Speed bump. What Nick thought of as a bump in the road felt like a mountain to an introvert like Jessica.

[Jessica Pan]

I felt like he could not relate to my anxiety at all. And I couldn't relate to his total nonchalance about chatting with people.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

But Nick did share one fact about social connection that put Jessica a little more at ease.

[Jessica Pan]

He said, look, Jessica, nobody waves, but everybody waves back. Like you have to be the first person to make a move and if you do that, almost 100% of the time, people will. If you wave to someone, they'll wave back. You say hi to someone, they'll say hi back.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Jessica began to realize how rarely she put in the work to make that all important first move.

[Jessica Pan]

So I feel like in the past, I'd go to a party and I'd linger in the hallway or the doorway. I wouldn't want to go fully in. I would hover near the cheese board or the drinks and the kitchen, or look at my phone, and then I would probably leave.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

But if Jessica was committed to being the one to open a conversation, what, she wondered, should she start talking about? Are there particular topics that are more effective for really connecting people? In the rare cases in which Jessica did talk with someone new, she usually stuck to the easy stuff, what Nick calls shallow or surface talk.

[Jessica Pan]

Surface talk is like we talk about our commutes or what we had for dinner or the weather. And deep talk is our hopes and our dreams and our fears. And so much of our life is rooted in just doing surface talk. You know, you could see the same person every day for 10 years, and you might not actually know what's going on with them because you literally just talk about very topical things.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

But Nick has found that there's a much more effective style of conversation if your goal is to truly get to know someone, to truly connect. It's what he and other researchers have called deep conversation.

[Jessica Pan]

It's sharing our human experience of struggling and loneliness and things that actually bring us together.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

In one study, Nick asked people to engage either in shallow talk, talking about the weather or their favorite TV shows, or in deep talk. And the deep talk conversation starters were pretty heavy. Things like, can you describe a time that you cried in front of another person? And if you could undo one mistake you've made in your life, what would it be?

[Nicholas Epley]

And these deep conversations go much better than people expect they will, and they're much less awkward than people expect. People pretty dramatically underestimate how much they are going to enjoy deep conversation.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Armed with all of Nick's advice, Jessica threw herself into the conversational deep end. She signed up for a professional networking event. And rather than hiding away in the corner like she'd normally do, she immediately headed over to a group of people, started chatting, and going against all her instincts, took the conversation deeper.

[Jessica Pan]

I felt like people really responded to that, and they would sort of go, oh, this person's here. To be real, to be honest, to actually, you know, make a connection.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Jessica went from feeling Like a shy wallflower to the life of the party.

[Jessica Pan]

I could visibly see the difference in people's faces. They were having that dopamine hit too, because we were connecting, we were laughing, we were bonding over something. And I realized that we all have the power to steer the conversation into something deeper.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

But Jessica knew that talking was only half the battle. She had succeeded in initiating deeper conversation, but it couldn't be a one way thing.

[Jessica Pan]

You need to make a person feel like they're being listened to. Not just waiting for my turn to talk or my turn to share my story, but actually listening to them and being a part what they're saying people like feeling paid attention to. It really is this underrated magic skill that we can all have and that really transforms how they treat you because they like being treated that way. They like being treated special.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Jessica left the event feeling over the moon. She had proven to herself that she could not only talk to strangers, but also that it felt great. Her experiences inspired her to go even more hardcore in her quest to extrovert.

[Jessica Pan]

I'm very much an all or nothing person, so I thought, if I'm going to do this insane year of torture and extroverting, then I'm not going to leave anything out.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Exactly what torture was Jessica planning for her introverted self?

[Jessica Pan]

It felt like, okay, if I can survive that, then I can survive anything.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

You'll find out when the Happiness Lab returns in a moment.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

This year at Pushkin, we've been able to work with some of the world's biggest brands on creating bespoke content. Whether it's a custom episode in partnership with a brand or a creative ad campaign, we want to be sure that our content reaches people. But the ad space is incredibly noisy. How do we ensure our content reaches the right audience? That's where LinkedIn ads come in. With LinkedIn ads, you can precisely reach professionals who are more likely to find your ad relevant. As you will have direct access to a billion members, 130 million decision makers and 10 million C level executives. You can target your audience by job title, industry, company and more, ensuring your ads reach the right people for your business. Start building the right relationships and reach your audience in a respectful environment with LinkedIn ads. We'll even give you a $100 credit on your next LinkedIn ads campaign. Go to LinkedIn.com Malcolm to claim your credit. That's LinkedIn.com Malcolm. Terms and conditions apply.

[Sonja Lyubomirski]

I'm Dr. Laurie Santos from the Happiness Lab. Intuit QuickBooks wants you to achieve your dreams of starting your own business and working for yourself. And if you're a small business owner launching a company, then you'll want to check out Mind the Small Business success stories from iHeartMedia's Ruby Studio and Intuit QuickBooks. Season one and two are out now and season three is launching Thursday, January 9th with new episodes coming out every other Thursday after that. So make sure you catch up and listen as hosts Austin Hankwitz and Janice Torres talk to small business owners about how they've grown and maintained their businesses and tackled the hurdles and challenges that come with being your own boss. From tracking money in and out to cutting through day to day management with an all encompassing platform like Intuit QuickBooks, you don't want to miss these inspiring stories of small business journeys. Listen to Mind the small business success Stories on the iHeart app, Apple Podcasts Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jessica Pan]

I think I always thought that to be a good public speaker, you need to have total confidence when you get on stage and before you even do the thing.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Author and introvert Jessica Pan had always hated speaking in public when actually it's.

[Jessica Pan]

So obvious, but you have to be scared to do it. And then when you survive, that's where that confidence comes because you survived doing the scary thing.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

So for the pinnacle of her year of acting like an extrovert, she decided to push herself to the limit.

[Jessica Pan]

And I thought, okay, so the final step in this is to perform for an audience where they're often encouraged to heckle you.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Jessica was going to try stand up comedy. She signed up for a comedy course, but when it came time for the first class, she was terrified. So terrified that she climbed into bed and assumed the fetal position.

[Jessica Pan]

Is that not what other people do? That feels really natural to me, hoping.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Somehow to muster the necessary courage. But that first comedy class went well and in a few weeks it was time to perform for real.

[Jessica Pan]

The first show I did was with my other fellow classmates and our friends and our partners at this pub downstairs in central London. And I was so nervous. I felt like, I don't know, I felt like I was on fire or something.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And in a way, Jessica was on fire. She got a ton of laughs.

[Jessica Pan]

The first performance went really well. My friends and I decided let's go to the Edinburgh Fringe Festival, which is like the epicenter of comedy, and let's perform on an open mic night.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Performing in front of a small crowd of friends and supporters at a low key gig isn't quite the same as getting up on stage at the premier comedy festival in the world, it did.

[Jessica Pan]

Not go as well.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Jessica now admits that she was a bit unprepared for Edinburgh in that particular act.

[Jessica Pan]

I talk about living in England and loving living in England and I forgot that Edinburgh is in Scotland. And I was like, yeah, I love England. I love it here. And it was like an audience full of Scottish people who were like, boo. Like, get off the stage, you're not in England. And for a delicate, shy introvert, that's enough to kill you. But I didn't actually die.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Jessica had made it through her year of living. Extrovertedly, she'd embarrassed herself on a tube train, talked candidly with strangers at parties, taken a comedy class, and had bombed in front of an angry crowd at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival. But in spite of it all, she'd still emerged unscathed.

[Jessica Pan]

The lesson from the year is that I learned a lot and nothing really bad happened to me.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Jessica hasn't quit her day job to become a stand up regular, but she does still practice many of the social skills she learned during her year long experiment.

[Jessica Pan]

I would say one of the biggest lessons from the year was to go deeper and be vulnerable and be willing to do it first. Most people want to talk to you and most people are nicer than we imagine in our heads because I think we build up these big scary judgments that oftentimes don't even exist.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Jessica now uses a series of go to social hacks to overcome her introversion. Little rules that she puts into effect whenever she feels daunted by a scary situation. Situation. The first involves breaking her usual cycle of avoidance. If she's invited to a party, she goes and she even tries to show up early.

[Jessica Pan]

If you show up late, everybody looks like they're already in these little cliques and circles and you feel like you can't join in and it's so intimidating. But if you're the first person there or like the second person there, it's not as scary.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

But Jessica also warns that you shouldn't underestimate the discomfort you might initially experience doing something new. And this means you need to give yourself a little self compassion and patience.

[Jessica Pan]

You know when you go swimming and you get in the water, it's absolutely freezing, but then your body adjusts to it and it doesn't feel so bad. I mean, that's a cliche metaphor, but I think it really works. Like after you break the ice with one person, it's not as scary with the second one and it's not scary with the third one. And by the fourth, you know you're the life of the party.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Jessica has learned to appreciate the benefits of social connection. But the extroverted habits she now engages in regularly haven't fully dismantled her true personality.

[Jessica Pan]

I'm definitely still an introvert. Like I definitely prefer to be at home or in a small group of people, but I now know I can give a speech, I can talk to a stranger.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And that hard won social confidence that came from this year long experiment has had a big impact on Jessica's well being.

[Jessica Pan]

I had more friends, I had less anxiety. I, you know, in my neighborhood now I talk to tons of people. I recognize lots of people. It feels like this small little village in central London. I was a lot happier by the end of the year.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

When Jessica first encountered the extroverted psychologist Nick Epley, she was floored by the ease with which he talked to complete strangers and how quickly he struck up friendships with the workers he met in stores and cafes. Jessica didn't think she'd ever be that comfortable in getting to know strangers herself. But a year into her experiment, she had really changed. A barista in her local coffee shop was one of the first to notice.

[Jessica Pan]

And he said, I remember when he used to come in here like a long time ago. And I was like, yeah, I remember that too. And he said, you didn't talk to us ever like anybody. And I was like, yes, that's correct. And he's like, now you're like friends with each other. And I was like, yeah, exactly. And you know, I didn't say here's the book and here's why. But he had noticed it and it was really strange to be perceived as an extrovert. And by the end I just thought, I don't even recognize myself. And I don't mean like that I was pretending to be someone else or that I wasn't being true to myself, but it was more like, I haven't let these fears and anxieties shackle me to the person I've always been. I felt like I had grown and I had changed.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

The science shows that we can all enjoy the well being boost that comes from social connection, no matter what our personality type is. But to get those social connection benefits, we need to actually connect with the people around us, whether we know them well or not. So why not push yourself and get a little more social? You could talk to a local cashier or a barista, or the person sitting next to you on your commute. And when you dive into conversation, try to push past the shallow stuff and get to topics that feel a little deeper. And remember psychologist Nick Epley's insight that not everyone waves, but people usually wave back. I hope this episode has given you some tips on how to extrovert a bit more even, and perhaps especially if it doesn't come to you naturally. And I hope you'll join me again next week for more in our series on getting more social. Next time on the Happiness lab with me, Dr. Laurie Santos.

[Nicholas Epley]

Amazon Pharmacy presents Painful Thoughts.

[Jessica Pan]

The guy in front of me in the pharmacy line is halfway through an incredibly detailed 17 minute story about his gout, a story likely more painful than the gout itself.

[Nicholas Epley]

Next time, save yourself the pain and let Amazon Pharmacy deliver your meds right to your door. Amazon Pharmacy Healthcare just got less painful.