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The Happiness Lab with Dr. Laurie Santos
What is Social Media Doing to Kids? with Dr. Jean Twenge
00:34:46
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Hey, Happiness Lab listeners. Happy International Day of Happiness. The International Day of Happiness is a holiday established by the United nations as a global day of recognition about the fundamental importance of human happiness. And on this day each year, the United nations and its partners release the World Happiness Report, their annual snapshot of how how happy people are around the globe. The report is also famous for ranking the happiest countries in the world. And this year, the happiest country is Finland for the ninth year in a row. So congratulations to Finland and all its lucky inhabitants. For a social science nerd like me, the World Happiness Report is an absolute treat. It brings leading researchers around the world together to dig into the political, social and economic forces that shape our well being. Each new edition of the World Happiness Report centers around a different theme, and this year's theme feels especially relevant.
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B
If we're going to think about psychological well being and happiness in the modern age, we have to look in depth at technology.
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A
This is Dr. Gene Twenge, one of the researchers behind this year's World Happiness Report. Gene is an internationally celebrated psychologist at San Diego State University. Her chapter looks at how young people around the world use and respond to social media. Jane is something of a rockstar when it comes to understanding teens and technology. In fact, she was one of the first people to sound the alarm on how smartphones might be damaging adolescent mental health.
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B
The article in the Atlantic was an excerpt of my book Igen, which came out in August 2017. It was headlined, have Smartphones Destroyed a Generation?
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A
As you can imagine, people had some very strong reactions to this title.
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B
I always like to point out, number one, it's a question, and number two, I didn't write it because headlines are written by editors, not by the authors. And they're supposed to be clickbait. And it did its job.
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A
But the article itself was grounded in some pretty revolutionary data.
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B
It really came from what I was seeing in these big national surveys of teens. All of a sudden, around 2012, more and more teens started to say that they felt lonely, that they felt left out, that they felt like they couldn't do anything right, that their lives weren't useful, that they didn't enjoy life. And those last three are classic symptoms of depression.
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C
One of the things I find so harrowing about that article, reading it now, is that you had this sentence that young people might be, quote, on the brink of a mental health crisis. What has happened since that, that time?
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B
I mean, if you follow that metaphor through, if they're on the brink of, of a cliff, they fell off the cliff.
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A
But if our young people have fallen off the cliff, is there any way for them to climb back on top? Well, stay tuned because in this episode, Gene and I will explore new data from around the world on how young people today are using social media and what the latest research shows about how all of us can build healthier relationships with these platforms. The Happiness Lab will return right after some quick messages from our sponsors.
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This is an iHeart podcast, Guaranteed Human.
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This episode is brought to you by Choiceology, an original podcast from Charles Schwab, hosted by the amazing Katie Milkman, behavioral scientist and author of the best selling book how to Change. Choiceology is a show about the psychology and economics behind our decisions. You can hear true stories from Nobel laureates, authors, historians, athletes and more about why we do the things we do. Listen to choiceology@schwab.com podcast or wherever you listen to your shows. Research shows how often our intuitions lead us astray. That's why I value tools that help me think more clearly, not just faster. Claude, the AI from Anthropic doesn't just hand you quick answers. It thinks things through with you and and helps you work through complexity instead of skipping past it. It's the kind of thinking partner I trust. Try Claude for free at Claude AI Happiness if your finance team spends more time finding data than using it. If there's one entity here and one here and one here and one here. If scaling your business feels like starting over, you need the Intuit ERP. Intuit Enterprise Suite is the AI native ERP solution that's powerful, painless and proven. Learn more at intuit.com ERP on the Happiness Lab, we talk a lot about how real happiness isn't moments of joy. It's about creating security and peace for small business owners. A big part of that well being comes from helping to protect the livelihood you've worked so hard to build. The Hartford has been doing that for more than 200 years and today they insure over 1 million small businesses nationwide. They make it simple to get a customized quote@theheartford.com smallbusiness. You're not just protecting your bottom line, you're protecting your peace of mind. Get a quote today@theheartford.com smallbusiness. You know, one of the trips that filled me with pure joy was visiting Australia. The wildlife alone. From kangaroos hopping through open fields to kookaburras calling from the trees, it just made me feel so alive. I also love the Melbourne coffee culture. I tried my first flat white there and it was amazing. Australia has this incredible energy that fills you with joy. It showed me how much nature can boost happiness. And I can't wait to go back, explore more destinations in Australia and start planning your memorable vacation@australia.com. I was so excited to hear that psychologist Gene Twenge was part of the 2026 World Happiness Report. Jean's been a research hero of mine for a while, in large part because she was one of the very first researchers to call out the negative effects of smartphones on teen happiness.
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B
And then other folks started to notice this too. There was an article in Pediatrics about clinical level depression suddenly going up around 2012, that emergency room admissions for self harm were going up, that suicide rate was going up. So there was a lot of stuff going on with that turning point around 2012.
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C
And so what did you think was going on?
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B
At first, I had no clue. I mean, really, it was a mystery. I just remember thinking, like, what's going wrong in the lives of teens at that point? And you know, when you work with big data sets that go over time, when you have one year of data, you always have to pause and go, okay, this could be a bl slip. It might go back to normal the next year. But it didn't. So then I started thinking more broadly, well, could it be the economy that's always kind of the first place that you have to go? It was clearly not the economy. Those of us who lived through the Great Recession know how bad that got. But it was finally, finally over by 2012, and things were getting better in the US economy was a mystery. But at the same time that I started to notice these trends, I'd been working on a few other projects with these surveys and noticed that around that same Turning Point in 2012, teens also started to sleep less. And maybe even more crucially, teens and young adults are spending less time hanging out with their friends, going to parties, just getting together with friends informally and socializing. All of it was going down. And I thought about all of those things. You know, we have depression going up, we have less time with friends in person, less time sleeping. What might possibly explain that? And then I saw Pew Research had data on ownership of smartphones. And it turns out that the ownership of smartphones among Americans passed 50% around the end of 2012. And that started to coalesce into a theory that it was the rise of smartphones, the rise of social media that might explain these trends.
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C
Did we know about the mechanisms how technology might be affecting kids mental health?
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B
I mean, I Had that theory about displacing sleep and displacing in person social interaction with friends. So that seemed like one very clear mechanism. But we didn't know as much, I think at the time about some of the other mechanisms. But even back then, people were certainly talking about, hey, there's this competition for likes and followers, there's the body image problems cropping up on Instagram, that people are behaving compulsively when it comes to their phones and social media. We didn't know all the ins and outs of that, but teens knew. That's what I also think is really interesting is when I first started to give talks on this in 2017, 2018, I was really afraid that the teens in my audience would be like, you're old, you don't know anything. This stuff is fine, we love it. And that's not even close to what happened.
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C
It's so interesting in part because those were the early days of some of these technologies. You know, that was like old school Instagram. That wasn't like reels and all this stuff. That's even more.
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B
Yeah, exactly.
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C
So give the listeners a sense of just how bad the statistics are these days.
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B
Clinical level depression among teens doubled between 2011 and 2019, before the pandemic was on the scene. That's how big the problem already was. But it's pretty common to see, especially for depression and anxiety. Heavy users of social media are usually somewhere between 50% and 200% more likely to fit some kind of criteria for clinically significant depression or high depression.
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C
And so now that you've been studying this connection for so long, what are some of the new things that we've learned?
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B
We just have a lot more data from a lot more sources now. When I wrote iGen, there were really, as far as I knew, only three experimental studies on social media reduction or abstinence. And then looking at outcomes, just in the last year we've had several meta analyses come out because there's now so many social media reduction experiments.
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C
So these meta analyses are big studies of studies where not only do we have more experimental studies, you put all the experimental studies together statistically and ask what's going on?
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B
Exactly. So the two most recent ones that came out in 2025, both show a significant reduction in depression and then a significant increase in psychological well being. So happiness, life satisfaction, those types of measures when people give up or cut back on social media, especially if they do that for three weeks or more. What's interesting though is you can't exactly really Ethically do kind of the ideal experiment in this area, which would be to randomly assign a bunch of 12 year olds to spend eight hours a day on social media. Not really ethical. And even doing that with 22 year olds would probably not be ethical. So that's why most of the studies have focused on kind of the opposite premise of giving up or reducing social media. By definition, what those studies are doing is taking people from the average use of social media to light. And this I think is an opportunity for future research because that's not where the action is in the correlational data, not even close. It's the heavy users where you really see high rates of depression and unhappiness. So I'm hoping there'll be a study that will take the heavy users and try to get them to cut back. I mean, that might be a little bit of a challenge, but I would expect you to see even bigger effect sizes there.
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C
Another thing I know you've talked a lot about is this idea that we need better data when it comes to cross cultural social media use. And that's where this new World Happiness Report fits in. And so before you started the World Happiness Report, what were some of the open questions that you wanted to look at with this new data set?
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B
So this is the PISA data set. PISA stands for the Program for International Student Assessment. Its primary purpose is to look at academic performance in math, reading and science. And it's of teenagers. So it looks at 15 and 16 year olds in countries around the world, somewhere between 30 and 40, depending on what measures you're using. And we know from international data sets, including pisa, that there's been an increase over the years in the number of adolescents who say that they're lonely, in the number of adolescents who say that they have psychological difficulties like anxiety. But what hasn't been as present is those international data sets asking about hours per day spent on social media and then also having some other measure of mental health or psychological well being. And so the 2022 administration of PISA does that.
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C
So you had the PISA Data set from 2022. What did you find?
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B
So for girls around the world, there's a significant link between spending a lot of time on social media and having lower life satisfaction. That was pretty universal across the different regions. It was strongest in English speaking countries and Western Europe. In Western Europe for girls, heavy users were 63% more likely to report low life satisfaction than light users. In Asia, they were 46% more likely overall, the average across the world, 49% more likely.
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A
So, so far the PISA data lines up with the idea that very heavy social media use isn't great for teen girls. Well, being in the report, heavy use meant spending about five hours or more a day on social media. But when Gene looked beyond girls, the story started to get a little more complicated.
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B
For boys, it was a little bit more of a mixed picture. You do see a link, especially again in the UK and Western Europe, that spending more time on social media is linked to lower life satisfaction. But that wasn't universal. In some regions, we don't see much of an effect at all. For girls, it seems to have a bigger impact on their happiness, their life satisfaction, their body image, everything compared to boys.
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A
But the strangest results came from the boys who were the heaviest users of social media. They think seven plus hours a day on these platforms.
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B
There were some surprises in here, especially in the data for boys, the heaviest users of social media also were a little bit more likely to say that they had the highest slice satisfaction. So choosing a 10 on the 0 to 10 scale, that was a mystery that I'm still trying to figure out. Danny Blanchflower, who's an economist at Dartmouth, has worked with pisa. He noticed that especially for boys and especially in the non English speaking countries, that those who are choosing a 10 on life satisfaction also had very low standardized test scores. Maybe there's a reading comprehension problem. There's something going on there that I don't know. We're still trying to figure out.
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C
Another interesting thing you saw in the world happiness report data, as I understand it, is there was this little slight bump in life satisfaction when teens were on social media just a little bit. What was that about?
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B
Yeah, so for girls, for example, is where we really see this pattern. And across most of the regions, those who said that they used social media for less than an hour a day had the highest mean life satisfaction. It could be that, yeah, if you're using social media in that limited way, maybe you're just communicating with your friends a little bit, seeing a couple funny videos and then getting off. But it's such an interesting pattern because the mean life satisfaction is a little lower for the non users of social media, but at least for girls. We also see in most regions that those who didn't use social media at all were the most likely to have that very high life satisfaction, choosing a 10 on the 0 to 10 scale.
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A
So to clarify, on average the happiest girls were the light users of social media, the ones spending less than an hour a day on these platforms. But when Jean looked at the teens reporting the very highest life satisfaction. That perfect 10 out of 10. Those tended to be the girls who said they didn't use social media at all.
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B
So it's a little more complex than some of the other studies on this
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A
topic across the world. The report showed that, minus a few puzzling exceptions, heavy use of social media is really not great for young people's well being. Which means that if we really care about teen happiness, we should find ways to limit their time on these platforms to less than an hour a day. But how on earth do you do that in a world where these tools have become completely ubiquitous forms of social connection and entertainment? We'll be back with Jean's answer to that when the Happiness Lab returns from this quick break.
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B
So in 2016, when I was working on that research, they were 9, 6 and 4 and now they're 19, 16 and 14.
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C
So it seems like the adolescents you are studying have turned into adolescents that are in your own life and in your own home and who have their own technology struggles in your house.
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B
Yeah.
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C
What's that been like?
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B
It's been interesting. I mean, pretty much everybody I know was a kid over the age of about 5. And many with toddlers too are struggling with this. And I think it becomes especially hard, you know, late elementary school when more kids start to get smartphones, when more kids end up having school laptops, and then middle school hits, and then the smartphone seems to become almost the norm and so does the school laptop and the devices are multiplying and it just becomes really hard. So the collision of my research life and my life as a mom, trying to figure out how to stem this tide and how to make the best choices for my own family, resulted in the 10 rules book. I was frustrated because so much of the advice that was out there, whether it was online or in other books or other experts talking about in interviews, it was squishy. Like, what age should a child get a smartphone? It was, it depends. So I've been asked that for 10 years. When I first got asked that, I'm like deer in the headlights. I have no idea. So I kind of went back to the it depends. And then I realized at some point that's actually horrible advice. Can you imagine having this discussion with your 12 year old? We'll do this when you're ready, we'll do this when you're the most mature. They're going to bug you every minute of every day, try to convince you that they're ready and they're mature and so on. You need to draw a line in the sand like we do for alcohol and driving and everything else with teenagers. Let's choose an age and run with it because that's easier if you do like we ended up doing in my house. You get your first smartphone with your driver's license, then that's it. It's a line in the sand. It's done, Conversation's over.
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C
Why is the driver's license so key there?
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B
So giving kids real world freedom, the ability to get around on their own, which is another huge generational change that kids and teens don't have as much independence as they used to. High school seniors are a lot less likely to have their driver's license now than they were in the 80s, for example. And I like tying the driver's license to the smartphone because, you know, first, smartphone's a tool. It's useful when you start driving. I like the Maps app. It's good to have that. But it's also, then it's not the choice that so many teens have of, well, I don't have that license. I don't have a way to get around. I really want to spend time with my friends. Mom and dad are busy. They can't drive me. So let's just go on Snapchat. So if the smartphone's with the driver's license, then you don't have that false choice. Then it's, I can get in that car and go do something with my friends.
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C
It also gets the kids who are a little reluctant to get their driver's license, getting their driver's license, which is awesome.
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B
Exactly. And I know that because that's my 16 year old. I don't think she would be motivated to get that license if it wasn't for it being tied to the phone.
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C
So interesting.
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B
In a big student, you could modify that if a kid's at least 60 and getting around the city, you know, on public transportation. I live out in the suburbs, so it's the driver's license here. But in the middle of New York, it would be different.
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C
And as you point out, as a society, we do this for so many other things. When they're gonna vote, when can they join the military, when can they drive? We have rules about this. And that's one of the first things that you talk about in your book, why it's called 10 rules, is that you argue that we need rules, not just conversations.
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B
I always want to say from the outset, we should have the conversations too. I have a list of things you should talk to your kid about in terms of, you know, online safety and everything else. But they're not enough. They're not enough against the peer pressure, the billions of dollars that social media companies have poured into algorithms. It's just not enough. And that's why it is helpful to have the rules to try to do everything you can to keep them off social media until they're at least 16, if not 18. And that can be hard to do, but it is easier if, when you give them a phone, don't give them an actual smartphone, give them a flip phone, or give them what my kids have is a phone designed for kids. I call them basic phones. And calling it a kid phone. And they don't want to use it even at 10, you know, oh, I don't want the little kid phone. But those types of phones look like an Android phone, so they don't stand out as much. They can still text their friends. So we have to counter that narrative of, like, if my kid doesn't have a smartphone, or if my kid doesn't have social media, they'll be left out. I'm here to tell you it's not true. Your kids can absolutely have friends and communicate with them without social media. But there's generally, in most of these, no Internet browser, no social media, no gambling apps, no dating apps, and no AI girlfriends and boyfriends. That last one is the one that terrifies me the most these days, is that if you hand your kid a smartphone with no parental controls on it, there is nothing to stop them from having their first romantic relationship. Romantic in quotes, with an AI chatbot.
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C
Oh, man. Could you imagine if back in 2016 when you were first looking at this, we knew that this was, like, on the horizon. Yet another thing to worry about with our kids. It's incredible.
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B
It's just becoming increasingly common for teens to be wanting to do AI sexy chat or AI girlfriends or even just for platonic friendship. They're turning to them for advice and companionship. And we already have a loneliness crisis. We already have a lot of teens who are alone in their bedrooms way too much and not getting together with friends in person. So what is that going to do to their friendships and their relationships when they've had these early experiences with these psychophantic chatbots that always tell them they're right, that never sleep, that don't have any of their own needs? It's really scary. It just reinforces and makes even more important the need for having some concrete rules.
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C
I know you've talked about this idea that the adults are in charge, which is one of your first rules. Why is this so critical to remember?
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B
Look, you know, I think a lot of parents now, and I put myself in this category when we had kids, we think it's kind of weird that we're the authority figure now. Even if you wait till you're older to have kids like I did, you know, like, wait, am I in charge now? What's going on with this? We live in an individualistic society. We live in an era when we have the idea that everybody is equal, but you're the parent and you have to take on a little bit of a different role. And that feels unnatural to a lot of us. I think our own parents said no, and they said no a lot. Sometimes they didn't even have a good reason. And yet we seem kind of afraid to do that, especially with technology.
- [28:25]
C
Problem is Then of course, parents are disappointing their kids, at least in the short term. But this is something you point out in the book as well, and also something that we talk a lot about in the happiness lab, this idea that the point of parenting is to not raise kids, but to raise adults. Tell me about the advice that you got with your own kids and how this ended up sticking with you so much.
- [28:43]
B
Yeah, and at this point, I'm not sure I can even remember who told me that, but it has stuck with me ever since. It's such great advice that that is your job to raise a successful adult. Your job is not to make your kid happy at every single moment. And that makes your job a little harder in some ways. But even in kind of the short, long term, it can make your job easier because if you have those roles and stick with them, even when your kids are toddlers, if you have said no and you have tried to keep them safe not just in the real world, but online and introduce technology later, when they're more ready for it, then they're less likely to have those mental health problems and more likely to do all the other things we need them to do, like sleep and spend time with their friends in person and exercise and maybe read a book every once in a while and help them be more successful adults.
- [29:44]
C
And so one of the ways you do that as a parent is to set rules about technology free zones. What are some of these zones that you recommend? Which ones are the most important?
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B
Well, the most important overall is no phones in the bedroom overnight. It's just so important for people of all ages. Tons of studies on this. People do not sleep as well or as long if that phone is in the bedroom, even if it's off, much less lighting up. With notifications around the holiday times.
- [30:12]
C
As a happiness expert, I'm often asked,
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A
is there a particular gift we can
- [30:15]
C
give our kids to make them the most happy? And I always say get them one of those old school alarm clocks, the plastic kind, underrated happiness boosting gift.
- [30:24]
B
Yes. My youngest, who's 14, that actually was one of her big Christmas gifts was a very fancy alarm clock that lights up with sunlight and you can wake up to different noises. Or there was one, and this was especially great because we live in Southern California that went, dude, dude, it's time to wake up.
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C
I love that. I think one of the most dastardly things cell phone companies ever did was to put an alarm clock in your phone because then you think you can have it when you're sleeping there.
- [30:55]
A
So far We've talked about what individual families can do to protect kids mental health. But when we get back from the break, we'll zoom out. We'll look at what we should all be doing as a society to deal with this challenge. We'll also hear why even experts like Gene sometimes struggle to follow their own advice when it comes to limiting technology. The Happiness Lab will be right back. Seeking more Brightness these days, research shows that simply gazing at bodies of water like the Pacific Ocean and can help lower your heart rate and increase feelings of relaxation. Consider a trip to sunny San Diego. Put your toes in the sand, smell and feel the ocean breeze. Spending time in nature can be great for your mental health and as you soak up the bright side, feel your taste buds, your health and your wellness. With a local cuisine fueled by San Diego's year round farm fresh produce, San Diego isn't just a destination, it's a disposition. Come to the bright side. Plan your trip to San Diego by going to sandiego.org funded in part with City of San Diego Tourism Marketing District Assessment Funds. On the Happiness Lab, we often focus on why dramatic lifestyle overhauls don't last, but small, manageable changes do. That's what I like about herobred. It's a simple swap that doesn't require willpower or constant decision making. Hero makes sliced bread, bagels, tortillas and more with 0 to 5 grams of net carbs per serving, 0 grams of sugar and up to 19 grams of protein while still delivering the familiar comforting experience people associate with bread. That makes it easier to enjoy breakfast wraps, sandwiches or family dinners without feeling like you're on a plan. They even offer limited batch Items like a 2 gram net carb croissant made in a Sonoma based French bakery, which shows that nutritious choices can still feel indulgent and rewarding. If you're looking for an easier way to make better everyday choices, head to Hero Co and use my code happiness for 10% off your first order. All figures are per serving. Not a low calorie food. Baked goods contain up to 18 grams of fat per serving. See Nutrition Facts for more info. As someone who teaches about the science of happiness, I spend a lot of time thinking about time affluence, how the simple act of having a bit of free time can help us live better lives. But here's the when you're racing between teaching classes, recording podcast episodes and actually trying to practice what you preach about well being, sometimes the basics, like eating well get pushed aside. That's why Premier Protein shakes have become my go to. They have 30 grams of protein, 160 calories, no added sugar, and tons of delicious flavors. They're the healthy choice you'll actually want to make, not one that feels like a chore. Premier Protein helps me protect my time affluence. Using those shakes empowers me to say yes to more, whether that's an early morning walk before work, hosting a cozy dinner party, which I love, or having the energy to really be present with my friends. Because the research is clear, we're happiest when we have the free time we need to fully show up for the moments that matter. Find your favorite flavor@premierprotein.com deadlines move, plans change and sometimes opportunities pop up out of nowhere. When you need branded gear fast, 4imprint
- [34:21]
C
is ready to deliver.
- [34:22]
A
4imprint offers hundreds of promotional products in their 24 hour category. Everything from custom apparel, bags and drinkware to writing tools, trade show staples and high tech gear. At 4imprint, it's not just fast, it's done right. Your logo is printed with precision, your order is packed with care, and it all ships out fast. And with their 160 degree guarantee, you can be confident it'll show up right on time, just the way you planned it. That's what it means to be four Imprint certain. So if you're prepping for a last minute event or jumping on a big opportunity, you don't have to settle or scramble. With four Imprint, you get fast, reliable service and peace of mind built right in. Check out their full 24 hour selection at 4imprint.com 4imprint for certain life moves fast at American Military University. They are ready to help you keep up. AMU's flexible, affordable online programs in cybersecurity, IT, space studies and more are designed for service members, veterans and their families. AMU provides the support you need to take the next step wherever life takes you. American Military University Built for what's Next. Learn more at AMU apus Edu. One of the most important places where experts are tackling kids growing dependence on smartphones is in schools where the battle for kids attention is happening in real time. In the last year, many districts across the country have begun experimenting with a ban on phones during the school day. But I asked psychologist Jean Twenge, do those bans actually make a difference?
- [36:11]
B
So that research is still emerging. We really only have a few good studies, but they tend to point toward mental health benefits, especially for girls. And then academic is where you get the biggest benefits of no phones during the school day. Bell to bell because then you preserve the social time of lunch and passing periods for students. It's actually easier to enforce. If it's the blanket bell to bell ban as opposed to classroom by classroom, then teachers don't have to police it. There's also a bunch of studies on high school and college students that even expand that to say, hey, even laptops, tablets, these are also a problem that when people take notes on paper, they get better grades, especially on comprehensive exams. It's that deep understanding that seems to be compromised when people are distracted by electronic devices. And we have to think about this. We're talking about the PISA data set. Well, one of the main things that's come out of the PISA data set in the last couple of years is that test scores are down around the world. And those declines aren't just due to the pandemic. They started around 2012, just like all of these other trends. Another project that I did with the PISA data set was the 2022 survey. Had a question asking students how much time they spent using electronic devices for leisure purposes. So non educational purposes during the school day. And the countries where the students were spending a lot of time for leisure purposes on electronic devices during the school day had a much more severe decline in those standardized test scores.
- [37:39]
C
I mean, especially being a professor at Yale, I always get parents telling me, oh, what can my kids do to boost their academic performance? It's like, fight and get phones out of your schools. That's going to help significantly.
- [37:49]
B
The idea of no phones during the school day has really gained traction in the last year or so. And a lot of schools are having a lot of success with that. They're seeing kids paying more attention in class, they're talking at lunch. They're finding, especially after the initial adjustment period, actually fewer discipline issues because there's not the drama over social media and other things. So that's really a good development.
- [38:11]
C
So that's the no phone zones. But sometimes when I hear the retorts parents go to and they're like, no, no, no, my kid needs a phone. One I often hear is like, I have to give my kid a phone so I can get in touch with them. There are fears that parents have about, you know, school shootings and these awful
- [38:26]
B
things, but they're actually safer without access to a phone in that situation. School safety experts are pretty unanimous on that because phones could make noise and alert shooters to where people are hiding. They can tie up bandwidth that is needed for police and first responders. And if they contact their parents, which, like, sounds Comforting, but isn't really going to help. In fact, it's going to hurt because then parents are going to rush to the school and then the police and the ambulances can't get through.
- [38:51]
C
You've also argued that you're just solving one problem at the expense of lots of others. What do you mean there?
- [38:57]
B
Yeah, and I think this is a dilemma a lot of parents have faced. You know, there's this very strong belief today that your kid has to have a phone to be safe. It's more about the parent's anxiety than it is the kid's safety in many, many, many cases. You know, admittedly there are practical reasons, especially once your kid gets a little bit older and they're traveling around more, that you might want to get in touch with them. But you try to solve that problem by giving them a smartphone in many cases without any parental controls on it, and you create a problem that's going to be happening eight hours a day, every day, which is that your kid's going to be staring at that phone all the time. Whether that's social media or texting or Internet or games, whatever. You're creating 200 other problems. Part of it is, you know, as a lot of people talk about, it's a collective action problem. I am hopeful about there being more regulation and more laws, especially for minors around social media and AI chatbots. I don't know when or if that'll happen in the US But Australia took that bold first step of doing that for social media, making it 16 and they have to verify agency. So I'm hoping that that will catch on, that more and more countries will do that, because I think that would make an enormous difference for kids and for their parents. If nobody 15 and under was on
- [40:16]
C
social media, I'm guessing at least some parents might be listening right now and thinking, oh crap, I already gave my 13 year old a phone. What do I do? What if it's too late? What advice do you have for those parents?
- [40:26]
B
I get that question a lot and sometimes people are resigned about it. They're like, oh, you can't put the genie back in the bottle. Well, yeah, you can. You're the parent, you pay that bill. You absolutely can. So when I get this question I usually ask first, you know, how old a child are we talking about? So we're talking about a 15 year old. I'm like, okay, sure, but put some pretty strict controls on it, like no downloading apps, you can't use it for anything. But calling after 9pm or something like that. But if you're talking about 13 and under, take it back and give them a basic thumb and say, I made a mistake, and that's on me. I'm going to give you this phone. You're still going to be able to text your friends on it. If you want to have a couple games maybe, but they'll have a time limit, and it's this phone or nothing. Most kids will say, okay, that's cool. I want a phone where I can text my friends as opposed to nothing.
- [41:16]
C
I also like this idea of just admitting as a parent that you know you made a mistake. These tools are new. You're trying to figure it out, too. And what your goal is is to do what's best for them, what's safest for them.
- [41:25]
B
And, you know, the reaction is going to depend on the kid. For some kids, it might be volcanic, which shows in many cases that there is kind of an addiction problem here. If the reaction's that extreme, it does happen, but it will go away. It will extinguish. It's just going to take a little time.
- [41:43]
C
And you're parenting for the future. You're parenting for the future right now.
- [41:47]
B
That's right. And that's what you got to think about.
- [41:48]
C
I'm also curious. We've already talked a little bit about the mechanisms that increase young people's prevalence of depression and anxiety and things like that. And do those mechanisms stop? Like, are they just as bad for adults, people in midlife and older too? Do we know?
- [42:02]
B
There's not quite as much data on older adults, but there's a good amount. And those studies also show that the more hours a day someone's spending on social media, or the more frequently they check social media, that the more likely they are to be depressed and lonely.
- [42:16]
C
We've talked about all the strategies and the rules you bring to your kids.
- [42:19]
A
Do adults need rules, too?
- [42:21]
C
And do you follow the rules all the time yourself?
- [42:25]
B
So I didn't have any social media at all until right before my Igen book came out in 2017, ironically, because that's my book that talked about social media use being bad for mental health. Because I went to a meeting with my publisher and the young social media and marketing manager said, am I spelling your name wrong because it looks like you don't have any social media? And I said, that's right. I'm the last person in my generation who never had a Facebook page. So, yeah, I don't have any and I don't really want any. He's like, well, you probably need to get some. Okay. At the time, this isn't as true anymore, but at the time, Twitter was the platform that was most used by academics and journalists. So I joined Twitter and yeah, it was Dickens. It was the best and worst. I made some connections through that platform with other academics that were really beneficial. But there was a lot of really bad stuff, really bad stuff. And it is now an even worse dumpster fire than ever. So I don't spend a lot of time on it anymore. I do go and look at it and it is. I learn a few things every once in a while and I still post occasionally. But I mean, there was a reason why I chose not to have any social media to begin with. I think I have an addictive personality. I'm compulsive about certain things. And you know, at its height when I was using it, maybe in 2018, 2019, a little bit more, it became that. And I did not like that. But I'm sure they would have loved it if I was putting up Instagram reels. And to be truthful, I probably should be doing that.
- [44:05]
C
Right, should for the success of the book. But there's a little hypocrisy there potentially.
- [44:10]
B
Absolutely, absolutely. So, I mean, part of it is, yeah, with the topic, it would be somewhat ironic, but I'm sure it would sell books. But would it be good for my mental health to be making the video and then worrying about how many views or likes it got? No, it would not.
- [44:26]
A
If there's one takeaway from all this research, it's that technology itself isn't the enemy. But in a world where our phones are within reach 24, 7, the limits we set around them do really matter. And that applies whether we're a teen, an adult, or even a researcher studying these questions directly. For more tips on how to develop a healthier relationship with smartphones, check out Gene's newest book, 10 Rules for Raising Kids in a High Tech World. If you have thoughts about today's episode or about the connection between social media and mental health, we'd love to hear them. You can email us at HappinessLabushkin FM or leave us a review and tell us what resonated. You can also sign up to learn more about the science of happiness and join my free newsletter on my website, drlauriesantos.com that's D R L A U R I E S A n t o s.com and if you're curious to learn more about what's in this year's World Happiness Report, then tune in next week because we'll be speaking with world renowned legal scholar Dr. Cass Sunstein about his chapter in the report.
- [45:29]
B
People are trapped. They are kind of forced into a situation where they're on social media even though they would be happier if social media didn't exist.
- [45:41]
A
That's in the next episode of the Happiness lab with me, Dr. Laurie Santos. Research shows how often our intuitions lead us astray. That's why I value tools that help me think more clearly, not just faster. Claude, the AI from Anthropic doesn't just hand you quick answers. It thinks things through with you and helps you work through complexity instead of skipping past it. It's the kind of thinking partner I trust. Try Claude for free at Claude AI
- [46:18]
D
Happiness A Better Help Ad International Women's Day is this march and it's a chance to celebrate women in all their brilliance. The leaders, the caregivers, the problem solvers, the hype friends, the quiet forces, the how do you do it? All types with a lot of strength and usually very little rest, therapy can be one way to support the incredible work you already do. A space just for you to reflect, reset and reconnect with what fuels you your goals, your boundaries, your joy. BetterHelp makes starting therapy simple by matching you with a qualified therapist based on your needs and preferences. No pressure, no guesswork, and if your first match isn't quite right, you can switch anytime. Here's to celebrating women and giving yourself support along the way. Visit betterhelp.com for 10% off. That's betterhelp.com
- [47:19]
A
seeking more brightness these days, research shows that simply gazing at bodies of water like the Pacific Ocean and can help lower your heart rate and increase feelings of relaxation. Consider a trip to sunny San Diego. Put your toes in the sand, smell and feel the ocean breeze. Spending time in nature can be great for your mental health and as you soak up the bright side, feel your taste buds, your health and your wellness with a local cuisine fueled by San Diego's year round farm fresh produce. San Diego isn't just a destination, it's a disposition. Come to the bright side. Plan your trip to San Diego by going to sandiego.org funded in part with City of San Diego Tourism Marketing District Assessment Funds. On the Happiness Lab, we often focus on why dramatic lifestyle overhauls don't last, but small, manageable changes do. That's what I like about herobred. It's a simple swap that doesn't require willpower or constant decision making. Hero makes sliced bread, bagels, tortillas and more with 0 to 5 grams of net carbs per serving, 0 grams of sugar and up to 19 grams of protein while still delivering the familiar comforting experience people associate with bread. That makes it easier to enjoy breakfast wraps, sandwiches or family dinners without feeling like you're on a plan. They even offer limited batch Items like a 2 gram net carb croissant made in a Sonoma based French bakery, which shows that nutritious choices can still feel indulgent and rewarding. If you're looking for an easier way to make better everyday choices, head to Hero Co and use my code happiness for 10% off your first order. All figures are per serving, not a low calorie food. Baked goods contain up to 18 grams of fat per serving. See Nutrition Facts for more info. Deadlines shift plans change and sometimes you need promo products fast. Turn to 4imprint 4imprint has hundreds of promotional items available with 24 hour turnaround. From custom apparel and drinkware to trade show gear, writing tools and more. Your logo is printed with care, your order ships fast, and with their 360 degree guarantee, you know it'll show up right and on time. That's the certainty of 4imprint. Check out the full 24 hour selection at 4imprint.com 4imprint for certain, this is an iHeart podcast.
- [49:49]
C
Guaranteed human.