Your Environment Affects Your Happiness More Than You Think with Dr. Leidy Klotz

Summary

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The Happiness Lab with Dr. Laurie Santos

Episode: Your Environment Affects Your Happiness More Than You Think

Guest: Dr. Leidy Klotz
Date: April 20, 2026

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Overview

In this episode, Dr. Laurie Santos explores how our physical surroundings profoundly influence our happiness—often in ways we overlook. She’s joined by University of Virginia professor Dr. Leidy Klotz, author of In a Good Place, who shares insights from engineering, architecture, and behavioral science on how the design and use of everyday spaces can boost well-being. Together, they break down ten actionable tips backed by science to help listeners reimagine the places where they live, work, and play for greater agency, growth, and connection.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Impact of Spaces on Well-being

• Our outer world shapes our inner world:
  • Dr. Klotz discusses how the environments we occupy affect how we feel, behave, and think ([00:32]).
  • “We don't recognize that our outer worlds shape our inner worlds.” — Leidy Klotz ([00:32])
• Personal examples:
  • Both discuss how their own office spaces reveal aspects of their identities and set the stage for focus or distraction ([01:13]–[02:01]).

2. Why We Fail to Leverage Space for Happiness

• Habituation and Inattention:
  • We often ignore our surroundings due to habituation, missing opportunities to improve our well-being ([06:16], [06:20]).
  • Example: Fire extinguishers in offices—designed to stand out, but ignored due to repeated exposure.
  • "We get in habits with how we interact with our spaces. ... It also causes us to miss really beautiful and meaningful things in the world or just opportunities for spaces that we never considered." — Leidy Klotz ([06:20])

3. The Self-Determination Theory and Evolutionary Psychology

• Three Psychological Needs:
  • Agency: the power to influence one’s surroundings.
  • Growth (Competence): the ability to learn and develop through engaging with environments.
  • Connection (Belonging): building bonds with others, often through shared environments.
  • Sandcastle metaphor: Kids at the beach gain agency, learn through play, and bond with others ([07:21]–[10:18]).
  • "These core needs for agency, growth, and connection originated in our relationship with our surroundings." — Leidy Klotz ([10:18])

4. Real-life Illustrations of Agency, Growth, and Connection

• Agency in Constrained Spaces:
  • Nelson Mandela’s prison garden: Mandela found agency through tending a rooftop garden while imprisoned ([10:37]).
  • "When we face a space that we can't change, we can get agency by looking at something about it that we can." — Leidy Klotz ([11:25])
• Growth via Creativity in Space:
  • Lee family example: Eating all meals outdoors, which changed family dynamics and improved well-being ([11:45]).
  • “One way to break through is to not necessarily put labels on your spaces…” — Leidy Klotz ([12:24])
• Connection through Space:
  • Even introverts benefit from spaces that encourage chance interactions, like a front porch ([13:34]).

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10 Actionable Tips to Make Your Space Work for Your Happiness

1. Create “Campfire” Setups for Connection ([18:18]–[19:34])

• Arrange seating in circles or focal points without screens to naturally promote conversation and bonding.
  • "A campfire...is just set up for people to connect. It's a circle. There's not a screen in the middle.” — Leidy Klotz ([18:29])

2. Clean Up for Connection ([19:35]–[21:17])

• Reducing clutter and distractions allows for deeper human interaction.
  • “It's the cognitive load of all the things people have to pay attention to in your space is cognitive load that they're not devoting to connecting with you." — Leidy Klotz ([20:18])

3. Fight Choice Paralysis ([21:17]–[24:51])

• Limit options to avoid cognitive overload and indecision, and beware of "bike shedding" (focusing on trivial decisions).
  • “Too many choices causes us to not only make bad decisions, but also feel bad about the decisions that we do make.” — Leidy Klotz ([21:33])
  • "Bike shedding": Explains how teams focus on trivial space details while overlooking substantial changes ([22:52]).

4. Break Free from Habituation ([24:40]–[25:57])

• Use all senses to pay conscious attention to often-overlooked features of your space.
  • "Close your eyes... you start hearing things and smelling things and maybe feeling things... about the space." — Leidy Klotz ([24:51])

5. Use “Space Before Screen” ([25:57]–[27:41])

• Let your urge to check your phone cue you to first observe and appreciate your physical surroundings.
  • “Using that thing we're naturally drawn to and instead turning it around as a reminder to analyze the space that we're in.” — Leidy Klotz ([26:07])

6. Harness Memory Anchors ([27:48]–[29:31])

• Connect memories with unique locations to improve retention and recall.
  • “When we learn, the information about where we learned it is filed right alongside the thing that we learned.” — Leidy Klotz ([27:57])

7. Build in Prospect and Refuge; Seek Order and Complexity ([34:26]–[36:54])

• Natural spaces that offer both shelter and a view (like a covered porch or window seat) are inherently comforting.
• Design aesthetics that balance order and variety feel good: “organization and complexity.”
  • “That's something we tend to like when it comes to design aesthetics—balance of organization and complexity.” — Leidy Klotz ([36:20])

8. Make Your Space Reflect Your Values ([37:08]–[39:13])

• The way we design our kitchens, offices, or common areas can unconsciously reinforce old social norms—or challenge them.
  • “Sharing our ideas through spaces...spaces don't need a sticker, they're already there.” — Leidy Klotz (re: visible solar panels and visible behaviors) ([39:07])

9. Promote Collective Efficacy ([39:13]–[41:02])

• Working together on shared spaces (like a community garden or local park) fosters community, empowerment, and lasting connection.
  • Example: New York's High Line started as two people's idea and grew into a city-defining space ([39:27]).

10. Use Space to Grieve and Remember ([41:02]–[45:35])

• Spaces can hold memories—positively helping us connect to those we’ve lost by honoring them physically (e.g., a path or garden in their name).
  • “I love being able to share her stories. That's one of the ways the awesome things that she gave to the world keep going.” — Leidy Klotz, about his daughter Josie ([41:22])
  • “Our brains...adapted the networks that were used to code space [for relationships].” ([44:19])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Our outer worlds shape our inner worlds in how people feel and think and behave and how spaces relate to that.” — Leidy Klotz ([00:32])
• “If you have a 72-inch screen above your fireplace that’s on... that’s what they’re going to be focused on. Whereas if you have a seating area... there’s more likely to be connection.” — Leidy Klotz ([18:29])
• “Connecting takes a lot of cognitive effort. That’s how we’re wired. And if the space is taking away from that attention, ...that’s cognitive load they’re not devoting to connecting with you.” — Leidy Klotz ([20:18])
• “Close your eyes. All of a sudden you’ll start hearing things and smelling things and maybe feeling things... you wouldn’t have otherwise.” — Leidy Klotz ([24:51])
• “Even small changes...can make a big difference in your happiness and in the happiness of the people around you.” — Dr. Laurie Santos ([46:05])
• The story of Josie’s Way: Creating a physical space to remember a loved one and share their spirit with the community ([41:22]–[44:19]).

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction to the theme & guest: [00:14]–[02:27]
• Self-Determination Theory & spatial well-being: [07:10]–[10:18]
• Agency in constrained spaces (Mandela): [10:37]
• 10 actionable space tips (begin): [18:17]
• Campfires (social connection): [18:29]
• Clean up for connection: [19:35]
• Choice paralysis & bike shedding: [21:17]–[24:51]
• Fighting habituation & “space before screen”: [24:40]–[27:41]
• Memory anchors for learning: [27:48]
• Prospect, refuge, order, and complexity: [34:26]
• Spaces reflect values & social norms: [37:08]
• Collective efficacy (High Line): [39:13]
• Spaces, grief, & Josie’s Way: [41:02]–[45:35]
• Wrap-up & practical encouragement: [45:35]–[46:27]

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Takeaways

• Our happiness is intimately connected to our physical environment—often more than we realize.
• We can intentionally reshape our spaces to better serve our needs for agency, growth, and connection.
• Even simple, small changes can yield big impacts: rearranging a room, minimizing distractions, blending indoor and outdoor life, or using space to commemorate loved ones.
• Paying attention to how our spaces reflect and reinforce our values can help us build happier communities as well as homes.

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Further Exploration

• For more on designing spaces for happiness, check out Leidy Klotz’s new book: In a Good Place: How the Spaces Where We Live, Work and Play Can Help Us Thrive.
• To reflect on ways to declutter your environment and its mental benefits, check the next episode in the Spring Cleaning series.

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Transcript

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Pushkin.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

When we think about spring cleaning, we usually focus on stuff. What to toss, what to organize, what to tidy up.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

But what if we zoomed out for

[Podcast Host/Producer]

a second and thought about the nature of space itself, how we're using it, and how it might be shaping our well being in ways that we don't even not.

[Lydie Klotz]

There's a whole realm of opportunities kind of in this relationship between our inner and outer worlds. And I think we don't recognize that our outer worlds shape our inner worlds in how people feel and think and behave and how spaces relate to that.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

This is University of Virginia professor Lydie Klotz. Lide is the author of a new book entitled In a Good how the Spaces Where We Live, Work and Play

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Can Help Us Thrive.

[Lydie Klotz]

My scholarship bridges between engineering and architecture and psychology and behavioral science. Even if you're just talking about, oh, should I add a new light to my office that's going to change all sorts of dynamics in unpredictable ways.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Before we go further, because we're talking about space, I'm curious about the space you're in right now. If you put on your sort of space psychologist hat, what would you notice about that room? How's it affecting your mind?

[Lydie Klotz]

My space right now is very minimalistic so that I can focus on the conversation with you and your listeners. But your space, on the other hand,

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

well, it's actually fake. It's a green screen.

[Lydie Klotz]

Oh, it's a green screen. Okay.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

My green screen image is an actual

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

photo of my real office at Yale,

[Podcast Host/Producer]

which was apparently giving much more away

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

about my identity than I realized.

[Lydie Klotz]

I love seeing books behind you. And to me, like, one of my favorite things about his face. So I love seeing people's books and then you're, like, sitting there as you're talking to them, trying to analyze like, okay, what is this person? Because they have, like, a Beastie Boys book and a, you know, catch 22 and then like, Viktor Frankl and, you know, it's like, okay, what is Laurie like?

[Podcast Host/Producer]

Can I just say that I love

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

how Lydie noticed my Beastie Boys Boys

[Podcast Host/Producer]

book, but I also love the general idea that our spaces tell a story about who we are. Because if our outer worlds shape our inner worlds, that means we can design our spaces to take authorship over our stories. We can become more intentional about the places we spend time in and how they shape our mental health and our happiness. So stay tuned, because in this episode of our Spring Cleaning series, we'll be

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

showing you how to do just that.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

Lydie will be back with all his helpful tips right after these quick ads.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

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[Dr. Laurie Santos]

wherever you listen to your shows.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

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[Dr. Laurie Santos]

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[Dr. Laurie Santos]

When you think about spaces in your own life that have made you happiest, what are the kinds of spaces that come to mind?

[Lydie Klotz]

I to this day, like bedrooms that have weird angles because I grew up in like an old farmhouse. In my bedroom was full height ceiling where my bed was, but then quickly went down at an angle. And any angled ceiling hearkens back to my childhood. And I actually do this in my class. I will ask students at the beginning of the semester as an icebreaker, like, what's your favorite space that you've ever been in? And most of the spaces that they talk about are some pretty regular space that's been imbued with meaning in some other way. So like the diner where my high school friends used to hang out, or even just like the kitchen island where I did my homework with mom, listening to podcasts or something like that.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

These kinds of spaces, the ones that make us feel safe, relaxed and happy,

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

are actually pretty rare. We also fail to prioritize, well being

[Podcast Host/Producer]

boosting spaces like these because we're often

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

not fully aware of what's going on around us.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

We fall prey to a bias that psychologists call habituation.

[Lydie Klotz]

Habituation is just getting used to the way things are. There's a famous psychological study about fire extinguishers that people in offices ask where the nearest fire extinguisher is. Can't identify it. Right. And of course, fire extinguishers are designed to be noticeable. They're red, they're placed in prominent locations, they're literally life saving. And yet more you walk by them, the less you kind of notice them just because they're always there. We get in habits with how we interact with our spaces. And a lot of the time that's really good, right? I don't want to have to analyze the design of my baseboard every time I walk out of my house in the morning. I want to be able to think about other things. But it also causes us to miss really beautiful and meaningful things in the world or just opportunities for spaces that we never considered and would want to use if we actually looked at them.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And so let's walk through some of the evolutionary logic to the importance of spaces. A lot of the book uses this idea of self determination theory. What's that and why is it so important when we're thinking about spaces?

[Lydie Klotz]

If you think about our hunter gatherer ancestors, the ones that survived were the ones that controlled their surroundings in some way, figured out how to create shelter. You figured out how to, you know, have protection from the elements, protection from Predators. So what would make you do that is some kind of psychological pull to want to interact with your surroundings, right? This feels good. And so self determination theory is the idea that we have these kind of three fundamental psychological or emotional needs that if we meet, we do well, and if we don't meet them, we struggle. And this is not my research. This is a whole body of research confirmed over and over in all kinds of different populations. And these are agency, competence, or growth, and kind of connection or belonging. I think about them as like a kid playing on the beach with a sandcastle, right? So if you go to the beach and you've got kids with you, like when I took my daughter Josephine, she would go. And immediately they have agency. The rest of their world, they're being told what to do by parents and teachers. And they go to the beach and they can decide where to build. They can decide how big to make the castle. They can decide what kind of architecture it is, and they like it. So if agency is like the ability to do it, competence and growth is the actual doing. And so the things that a kid learns just building a sandcastle are quite amazing if you think about, okay, they're learning pretty high level, like fluid mechanics, just how the water erodes. They are learning material properties of sand, but they're also learning about themselves and their relationship with the world. When the tower collapses and they get frustrated, they realize that if they build it back, that also feels pretty good, that they have some kind of control over it. So that's the growth piece that we get from interacting with our surroundings. And then the connection. Every one of these projects that I've ever seen starts with like one kid. And then they realize that if they can recruit the cousins, it's going to get bigger and they can do more. And then I inevitably, as the parent, end up schlepping down to the ocean to like grab buckets of water and come back up and dump them in their pond. That then goes away by the time I walk down to the ocean and come back again. But the connection then is like, okay, by building together, we're not just building the structure, but also building relationships between the people. And you just think about human connection at the societal level. The leading theory now is that the reason the hunter gatherer bands came together in the first place was to be able to build and maintain big structures. This act of building together is like the genesis of civilization. So, you know, these core needs that we have for agency, growth and connection kind of originated in our relationship with our surroundings. And now, of course, our relationship with our surroundings is different. You and I aren't having to go around, thankfully, manipulating our surroundings just to be able to survive, but we can still meet our psychological needs by manipulating our surroundings.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And so you've used this example with children, but as adults, we'd be happier in our spaces if we embrace these three things, too. Thinking specifically about agency, your book shares some lovely examples of people finding agency over their space, especially in situations where this is seemingly impossible. You wrote about an example of Nelson Mandela. Can you share that example here?

[Lydie Klotz]

So Nelson Mandela famously imprisoned for a really long time. And I guess one of the things that he did when he was imprisoned was on the rooftop of the prison. There was a space that he found, I think he wrote, bathed all day in sunlight. And then he lobbied the guards to be able to have a garden up there and then was able to use it. And obviously, Mandela is like an exemplar of taking obstacles and persisting regardless. It's an incredibly extreme example, but we all have, like, access to spaces that we're not necessarily taking advantage of, and we're all going to have our spaces constrained in some way. Hopefully, we're not going to be incarcerated, but there are spaces that we can't change. And when we face a space that we can't change, we can get agency by looking at something about it that we can.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And so that's agency. The second need growth. I love this idea of the kids building the sandcastle and learning all these new things, both in terms of their own emotion regulation and, like, fluid dynamics and so on. But you point out that there's simple ways that we can grow and get creative even in our own spaces. You used an example from a family that you knew that even just switched up where they ate dinner. Tell me about that.

[Lydie Klotz]

The Lee family, they're my friends, and there was a time in their life where they had four kids under the age of six. And I was talking to the dad at that time, and I said, hey, how's it going? And he's like, things are pretty good. Taken to eating outside. And I was like, what do you mean? Like once a week? He's like, no, we eat every meal outside. And I was like, wow, that sounds like a lot. He's like, no, actually. So we go out there, and it doesn't matter if the kids spill. It just, like, goes into the ecosystem. And then when they're done eating, they can run around outside, and it doesn't bother Katie and I as much. And when they're making loud noises. It doesn't reverberate around the kitchen wall. So it had made their life better. And I think it illustrates this principle, similar to what Mandela did. But it's also like, here's a space that they access to that they had never thought of using that way. One way to kind of break through from that is to not necessarily put labels on your spaces. According to, like, this is a dining room, this is a kitchen, this is a patio. It's like this is a 10 foot by 20 foot space that is pleasant in the spring and the fall and has some breezes and grass and a jungle gym near it or whatever. And then you can start to kind of line up your activities with the spaces and break away from functional fixedness that we get related to how these spaces are supposed to work.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And so this is this idea of growth. We can get competent in our spaces. We can get super creative. The last need you mentioned when you were talking about the San Galaxy example was the one that I think we talk about the most on the Happiness Lab, which is this idea of connection. Usually when we're talking about on the Happiness Lab, we're thinking about individual strategies you can do to boost your social connection. So like text a friend or talk to the stranger in the coffee shop. But your point is that spaces are an incredible vehicle for building these really basic social connections. Why is that the case? Why can space be so powerful for that?

[Lydie Klotz]

This also ties into our modern world, like these opportunities that we have to not have to commute into work just to meet with somebody. If we can talk on Zoom or I get my groceries delivered and I don't miss the grocery store, but I do miss the random person who smiles at you and reminds you that there's like good humanity out there. So part of it is just proximity, right? How do you want to be able to have interactions? Who do you want to be able to have interactions with? I mean, I think about this a lot because I'm naturally an introvert. I'm not going to go out and like seek interactions, but I need other people around. And so it's really important for me to live in a place where there's just going to be people happening by if I'm sitting out on the porch on the weekend.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

So self determination theory suggests that we're wired to shape our surroundings in ways that support three basic needs. Agency, growth, and connection. But how do we actually build those kinds of spaces into our everyday life?

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

After the break, we'll walk through 10 actionable ways we can do just this.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

The Happiness Lab will be right back.

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this episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. May is mental Health Awareness Month and I love the idea of using this month as an opportunity to check in with yourself. Are you feeling overwhelmed or anxious or stuck about something? If so, take this month as a reminder that whatever it is that you're going through, you don't have to navigate it alone. Having someone with you to listen to, understand and support you can make all the difference. If you're thinking about talking to someone professionally, give BetterHelp a try. BetterHelp therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully licensed in the United States. Plus, BetterHelp has a therapist match commitment. BetterHelp does the initial matching work for you so that you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences. And if for some reason you aren't happy with your therapist match, you can switch to a different therapist at any time from their tailored recommendations. You don't have to be on this journey alone. Find support and have someone with you in therapy. Sign up and get 10% [e-mail] Laurie that's better. H E L P.com Lauri Seeking more brightness these days, research shows that simply gazing at bodies of water like the Pacific Ocean can help lower your heart rate and increase feelings of relaxation. Consider a trip to sunny San Diego. Put your toes in the sand, smell and feel the ocean breeze. Spending time in nature can be great for your mental health and as you soak up the bright side, feel your taste buds, your health and your wellness with a local cuisine fueled by San Diego's year round farm fresh produce. San Diego isn't just a destination, it's a disposition. Come to the bright side. Plan your trip to San Diego by going to sandiego.org funded in part with City of San Diego Tourism Marketing District Assessment Funds. We talk a lot on this show about burnout and how easy it is to keep pushing without ever truly recovering. Real restoration usually Requires a pause. Not another productivity hack, but a change of environment. Auto Camp is designed for exactly that kind of reset. It's all the amenities of a boutique hotel, but in nature, you stay in thoughtfully designed outdoor accommodations set in beautiful natural environments with comfortable beds, spa, inspired showers, and a central clubhouse for gathering and connecting. It's all the grounding benefits of the outdoors without the stress of planning or roughing it. If you're overdue for a real break, Explore Otto Camp's nine locations and iconic outdoor destinations at Ottocamp.com. University of Virginia professor Lydie Klotz studies how the spaces around us quietly shape our moods, our thoughts, and even our behavior. His new book, In a Good Place, breaks down how simple design choices can lead to big improvements in our well being. I picked out 10 of my favorite ideas from the book and asked Lydie

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

to walk us through them.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

Starting with number one, something we can all use a little more better connection with other people. And for that, Lidey says we need more of what he calls campfires.

[Lydie Klotz]

A campfire, if you think about it, is just set up for people to connect. It's a circle. There's not a screen in the middle. There's just warmth in the middle. If you think about a campfire, it invites people in. There's an extreme example that I use in the book of a event planning company that set up campfires to try to make it so that people would bond at the event. But you don't need to have glowing orbs in the middle of a circle. But you do need to think about, well, if I have a 72 inch screen above my fireplace that's on and people come into the room, that's what they're going to be focused on. Whereas if I have a seating area that's arranged in a circle and I invite them to sit down and it's comfortable, there's more likely to be connection. So that's a campfire. I mean, here's an example that I would use at a conference is like thinking strategically about where I sit. It's uncomfortable for me to like come up to a group of eight people sitting in a circle unless we all come at the same time. But I could also like sit somewhere where there's an open seat next to me and it's inviting for somebody else to come and have like a random connection in that way.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

So it's kind of like creating these focal points where social connection becomes easy.

[Lydie Klotz]

Exactly, exactly.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

So another tip that you have that's related to this idea of social Connection, which actually comes from your earlier book Subtract, is this idea that to engage in social connection in our spaces, we need to clean up. This feels especially salient to me right now because right now I'm upstairs in my podcast studio, and a friend of mine who just happened to be in town was like, oh, I'll just come over to your house and wait till you're done the podcast, and then we can have time to hang out. And my instant reaction when she said this was like, oh, my God, there's the stuff in the kitchen, there's the stuff on the floor. It almost made me tell her, like, no, no, no, don't come to my house. We'll meet at some coffee shop or something. We can get really weirded out if our spaces don't feel clean enough for other people to connect. But you've pointed out that there's other reasons that cleaning up can help us connect better. What are some of those reasons?

[Lydie Klotz]

I mean, connecting is hard. Connecting takes a lot of cognitive effort. Connecting takes a lot of attention. That's how we're wired. And if the space is taking away from that attention, you know, I'll give an example of my house. Maybe there's shingards and boxer briefs on the floor, and the person's thinking, like, what's going on here versus connecting with me. It's the cognitive load of all the things that people have to pay attention to in your space is cognitive load that they're not devoting to connecting with you. And this person's already a friend of yours, so you're okay, right? But if you think about a new person coming into your house, you want not a lot of distractions in the space to take away from them. Connecting with you and feeling comfortable with you, or even it could be like something that's, you know, a super fancy centerpiece that just the person can't take their eye off it and then focus on you. Those are things that are distracting from the human connection that might happen in the space. Also, just simply coming into your house and taking an outside view saying, okay, if I didn't live here, what would this look like to me, I think is probably a good exercise.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

I love this point about the distraction specifically, too, because that gets to tip number three that you've talked about, which is to find ways to use your spaces to fight choice paralysis, which is another way that we can kind of get cognitively overloaded. How do you define choice paralysis? And how can we use our spaces to fight it?

[Lydie Klotz]

Too many choices causes us to not only make bad decisions, but also feel bad about the decisions that we do make. For example, with chocolates, if people have 30 chocolates to choose from, they are more disappointed with their choice than if they only have some subset of 6 to choose from, right? Because you're thinking about what you missed out on and you felt cognitively overloaded. Now that's just 30 and 6. And now think about all the degrees of freedom and all the endless options in our spaces. And so I think narrowing down those options. So we want to have choice, but we don't want to be, like, overloaded with the amount of choice that we have. One thing that architects have learned to do is in the design process. If they're doing a new building or even, like, renovating, there's a stage where they present three different options. So one option might be like, okay, this is centered on a view out the window, and this one's centered on a gathering area in the living room. And this one's some other principle. So for thinking about setting up your home office, for example, starting with, like, what are the three basic options that I want to explore before you get into any kind of furnishings and, you know, paint colors and all these other details that just make endless choice, your

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

book also has some tips that we can use to avoid choice paralysis. And one of them is that we need to avoid our tendency towards bike shedding. What is bike shedding?

[Lydie Klotz]

Basically, that's that left to our own devices, we often focus on the small and inconsequential things at the expense of big, important things. And the bike shedding example, it's a built environment example that's been applied to all kinds of decision making. But the original example is like, a committee convened to discuss the construction of a nuclear power plant. Everybody's there, engineers, owners, architects, plant operators, maybe some community members. And the plants get presented. Everybody's like, looks good. They ask some softball questions about the nuclear power plant. And they're like, oh, you want to talk about the bike shed that's going to go next to the nuclear power plant? And, like, the meeting springs to life, right? Everybody has opinions. They're like, what's the new racking system going to be? What color are we going to paint it? Where's it going to be located? It's an illustration of, like, the bike shed is more understandable. People get the bike shed and therefore feel okay chiming in on it. There's also the decisions related to the bike shed, while small, are much more certain. Like, okay, if we paint the bike shed blue. Everybody knows what that is going to look like. Whereas if you say, oh, we should have a different kind of nuclear reactor, nobody even knows what that would would mean. So we focus on these small and inconsequential decisions because they're understandable, but also because there's more kind of certainty in what the ultimate decision outcome would look like. So it becomes really important to get over bike shedding, to go back to basic principles about what we want from the space. And that's one reason why it's important to think about agency growth and connection. That's one way to avoid bike shedding, is to say, okay, how is this going to contribute to these fundamental psychological needs? But what it's doing is helping people think through the big things before you move on to these small, granular decisions.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

So that's tip number three. Avoid the choice paralysis. Fight the bike shedding. Tip number four, switches gears a little bit. It's this idea that we need to fight the habituation we would normally experience in spaces.

[Lydie Klotz]

Yeah. A way to overcome it is to consciously tune in to what's going on. One interesting way to pay attention is to close your eyes. Close your eyes. All of a sudden you'll start hearing things and smelling things and maybe feeling things, maybe the breeze or whatever that you wouldn't have otherwise about the space. And this is an opportunity to notice pleasant things, but it's also an opportunity to notice negative things that even if you've habituated them away, are still having a toll. So there's studies of workplaces where there's like a lot of ambient noise. And even if workers don't say that it's a noisy workspace, they still report being more stressed out at the end of the day. Same with unpleasant smells, like the new car smell that comes in cars, but also off gassing carpets. Right. And people sit in a space like that all day and don't even notice the smell and then go home with a headache because they've been inhaling the VOCs. So breaking free from habituation is a matter of paying closer attention. But, like, one way to do it is to tap into all your senses.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Another tip that you've given for fighting habituation, which I love so much, it's going to get its own tip number. Tip number five is what you've called space before. Screen. Oh, yeah, what's that?

[Lydie Klotz]

Obviously our screens are taking our attention. I use my screen. It does amazing things. It's allowing us to talk Right now, me to talk to your audience. That's freaking amazing. But no matter what it can do, it's not tapping into my other senses. Right. This is basically just visual and sound here, but there's no smell, there's no touch. It's two dimensional. And again, this isn't bad, but it is like kind of inadvertently taking out of our life something that really provides meaning and happiness and fulfillment. And so space before screen doesn't even try to fight that. And just use your screen as a cue to take in the space around you. So if I walk into this new space and I start looking at my screen to see like, okay, did I get a text from anybody? When you start doing that, say, oh, wait, I just looked at my screen. I'm in a new space. Can I take in the space? And now all of a sudden you're looking and you're smelling and you're noticing things and you're seeing opportunities. So using that thing that we're naturally drawn to and instead turning it around as a reminder to analyze the space that we're in, you can do that in spaces that you're in all the time. And I guarantee you, you will notice new things about the space.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Since reading your book, I've tried doing this just using my own foe that I'm looking at as a cue. And I can tell you this helped me in a lot of spaces, but especially in the morning.

[Lydie Klotz]

Interesting.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

I first wake up and I'm looking at my phone to check my email. It's like, no, wait, space before screen. And I stop and I'm like, oh, I'm in my cozy bed. The light is coming in. What's the weather outside the window? And it's just so much more embodied and grounding when before I'd just be like halfway through my inbox, before I would even notice I was awake and alive and I had a body at all.

[Lydie Klotz]

Yeah. Well, that makes me really happy that it was helpful. I do the same thing and resist the same way that you do now.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

So tip number six is one that's helpful. Whenever we're in spaces that involve learning, and it's to harness what you've called memory anchors.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

What are memory anchors?

[Lydie Klotz]

So when we learn something, the information about where we learned it is filed right alongside the thing that we learned. Now we can engineer that. And if we want to learn something and really remember it, then we can also do it in a spot that we're more likely to remember. So it's maybe a different spot and a really simple example that I use in my teaching. I'll Figure out a reason to just get out of the classroom and go to some random spot on campus. And then I'll guide them through an experience that helps them learn some important lesson. And then they're like, why are we at the amphitheater for this? We didn't actually need to come here. Like, I just wanted you to be more likely to remember this. Like, think back to your own school, right? If you remember something, it's very often happens outside of the classroom. Maybe it's on a field trip. I mean, my dad, I don't know if he knew he was doing this, but when he would help us with our biology, he would take us on walks outside. So you're just like, getting people outside of the routine environment, and then you've got this memory anchor where it's the new space and the new idea working together to be remembered.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Seems like it's just another way we can harness our spatial memory system, right? Is that we're using space to kind of do what we actually want to do, which is to be learning new stuff.

[Lydie Klotz]

Right. And, you know, one of the ways that you might hear about this idea is memory champions will, if they need to memorize a bunch of facts, will actually take the facts and associate them with spaces. That's super interesting, but it's pretty much useless for everybody else. And so we're basically just turning that around, right? It's like, okay, we want to actually learn, so let's align our spaces to do that.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

So far, we've looked at how our

[Podcast Host/Producer]

spaces can shape our daily habits, how we connect, how we focus, and how we learn. After the break, we'll go deeper into how our surroundings can reflect our values, tap into our instincts, and even help us stay connected to the people we've lost. The Happiness Lab will be right back.

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[Podcast Host/Producer]

Seeking more brightness. These days, research shows that simply gazing at bodies of water like the Pacific Ocean can help lower your heart rate and increase feelings of relaxation. Consider a trip to sunny San Diego. Put your toes in the sand, smell and feel the ocean breeze. Spending time in nature can be great.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

For your mental health.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

And as you soak up the bright side, feel your taste buds, your health and your wellness with a local cuisine fueled by San Diego's year round farm fresh produce. San Diego isn't just a destination, it's a disposition. Come to the Bright side. Plan your trip to San Diego by going to sandiego.org funded in part with City of San Diego Tourism Marketing District assessment funds it's Dr. Laurie Santos. You've probably heard me talk about how our brains benefit from even small changes in environment. There's strong research showing that time in nature, even brief time, can lower stress and improve mood. The challenge is that most of us don't have the time or energy to plan an entire outdoor trip from scratch. That's why I love what Auto Camp is doing. They combine the restorative benefits of being outdoors with the comforts of a boutique hotel. You can stay in a beautifully designed Airstream or cabin surrounded by trees and open sky, sleep in a genuinely comfortable bed and enjoy spa inspired bathrooms that make it easy to fully unwind. Each location also features a beautiful clubhouse with activities, food and beverage options and inviting lounge spaces designed for gathering and connecting so you get fresh air and stargazing without giving up the ease that helps your nervous system truly settle. If you've been craving a simple reset or a meaningful way to reconnect, connect with people you care about, check out Otto Camp. It's a thoughtful way to get the well being boost nature gives us with locations from Yosemite to the Catskills. Find your Perfect [e-mail] this message is in partnership with Simple Mills. On our show we talk a lot about how small choices can have a big impact on your well being. And one choice that often gets overlooked? The snacks you reach for during the day. It might sound simple, but the right snack can help you feel energized and focused. Two things that make sticking to healthy habits so much easier. When your body feels good, your mind follows. That's why I feel good talking about Simple Mills Almond Flour crackers. They are made with real nutrient rich ingredients like almond flour, sunflower seeds and flaxseeds. And the bonus these crackers have a unique crunchy texture. They're absolutely delicious and I promise they'll make you look forward to snack time. We all know that unhealthy snacking can derail even the best intentions. Simple Mills crackers do the opposite. Now I hope you know I'm not a big ad speak person, but when they say Simple Mills Crackers taste Like sunshine in every bite. It's actually a pretty good description. They're light, satisfying, and instead of weighing you down, you feel a little more energized. Choosing snacks that fuel your body well is one of those small but powerful steps that make other healthy habits stick. And if you're looking for something filled with its own little reward system, check out Simple Mill Pop.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Mmms.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

Yes. Spelled with three M's, these light, airy, poppable cheese crackers are loaded with real vegetables, so you get that quick crunch without compromising your energy. It's a mindful choice that feels good and tastes great. The bottom line? Habits don't happen in isolation. They're supported by the environment you create and the choices you make along the way. When you pick snacks that help you feel good physically and mentally, you're setting yourself up for success. And success should taste good. Find simple meals at your local grocery store. We've been walking through my top 10 favorite ideas from Lydie Klotz's new book, In a Good Place, about how we can use our spaces to boost well being. Tip number seven takes us back to our evolutionary roots and the kinds of environments that we're naturally wired to feel good in.

[Lydie Klotz]

Obviously, there's a lot of advice out there about what you're going to like, and I think the ones that really hold up scientifically are things that are aligned with the laws of nature. And so one great example is prospect and refuge. We talked earlier about spaces being critical for our survival. So what kind of space would be good for survival? Well, refuge first, right? So the space is going to protect you from the elements and from predators, but also prospect and being able to see, like, food or water sources or other opportunities from the space in that prospect and refuge. I mean, that's sitting under an umbrella at the beach. You're getting prospect and refuge. Washing dishes in your kitchen while looking out the window. That's prospect and refuge. So that's something that we tend to like when it comes to design aesthetics. It's kind of a balance of organization and complexity. And so this is how nature just takes shape. Right. If you think about a pine tree, for example, I mean, super complex, impressive thing that's doing all this amazing stuff. But there are also some very basic rules in the appearance of this tree. You know, there's small patterns in the tip of the branch that are identical to the patterns in the larger branch, and you don't necessarily notice them unless you're really trying to pay attention to it. But that's the World that we've been surrounded with, and that feels pleasing and going into a built environment. Example of that. If you think about, like, a facade of bricks, super plain. Right. Seemingly very straightforward. But if you look at how bricks are organized, which now you're going to be cursed to do for the eternity. But there are all kinds of different patterns. I mean, there's like a pattern where the bricks are just staggered, offset by a half a brick each row. And that creates this balance of order and complexity. But there are other patterns where you might have a brick with the long side facing out, then a brick with the short side facing out, then long side, then short side, and then that alternates each row, and it creates this aesthetic of, like, okay, there's complexity, but there's also this underlying order. And that's stuff that we've tend to have been surrounded by for a long time. And that kind of helps our brains feel comfortable, and then we can go about our lives doing other things.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

Any tips for how to build more of that into our own spaces?

[Lydie Klotz]

The classic interior design advice about, you know, varying the materials so you don't want to get things too matchy, but also have, like, a clear organizing principle to them.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

So tip number seven was this evolutionary idea. Go for these moments of prospect and refuge, maybe find order and complexity. Tip number eight is about aligning our space with our beliefs. What are some beliefs that we might be unknowingly propagating in our spaces?

[Lydie Klotz]

I'll give you one I unknowingly propagated. So we bought an old Cape Cod, post World War II house. And the way those homes were designed, classic design, was that the kitchen's kind of in the back. And of course, that was based on Post World War II gender roles, where it was seen as the woman's job to be there cooking, but also cooking, like, out of sight from everywhere else. And it was supposed to be you bring out the food and then return to the kitchen. And people don't have to see the mess, and people don't have to interact with the mess. But, like, if you opened up your kitchen to make it a more open plan, you're, like, taking down those gender roles.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And this kind of thing comes up at work, too, when it comes to hierarchies that we might not intend as well.

[Lydie Klotz]

Yeah, I mean, if you're thinking about the quality of the offices, where the offices are, who uses what space. I was talking to somebody recently, and they're like, we have this idea that our office is open plan, and everybody can use Any space. But the big boss always comes in and just sits in this conference room all day. And it's like, nobody's going to go take the big boss's space, right? And so really thinking about what message are you sending with the spaces and does it align with what your company or yourself actually values? And what I think is really important about, like, sharing our ideas through spaces. I mean, people do all this work with social norms because social norms is one of the most powerful ways that behaviors spread. So when you see a sticker that says I voted, that's like, okay, we're trying to spread voting by making a behavior visible. And what's hard about a lot of behaviors is that they're not super visible. So you need a sticker, But a space doesn't need a sticker. It's already there. And there's this classic example, I think it's actually Connecticut suburbs, of how solar panels spread. And basically the gist of the study is that people who can see solar panels from their house are more likely to have solar panels on their house, and they control for everything else. And so it's a classic social norm, right? It's just by seeing this space, it's spreading this value. And so I just think of that as it's a huge opportunity we have to actually enhance our influence in the world and make change for the things that we think are important.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

And one of the things we might think is important is a sense of community kind of egalitarianism. And that gets to tip number nine, which is that if you want to use spaces to enhance what you value, you might want to consider promoting what's called collective efficacy. What's collective efficacy?

[Lydie Klotz]

Building together, basically. I remember when I first started teaching my class on sustainability in the built environment. Students in the class were like, oh, there's this project that's going to happen in New York City where they're going to redo this old abandoned rail line and make a walkway on it that allows people to walk through the city and experience it in a totally different way. And this has turned into the High Line. And when they first started talking about it, I'm like, yeah, great. I hear about these projects all the time. And this is just two people's dream. The people who started the High Line literally just met at a community meeting and had this idea for this thing. And then it grew from there. And it's just a really pleasant place that has been incredibly popular. It's a success by any measure, except for maybe gentrification. But that's a different book. And even if you think you know Jane Jacobs, another New York story where she was really famous for her activism, Stopping highway from Bisecting Manhattan. And it started with people in rooms talking about not wanting this to happen. And they protest against it. And their group gets bigger from the protesting and then they're able to take on bigger space change projects. So that's collective efficacy. It feels good. It's one great way to get things done in the world. And if you track how these examples happen over time, it very often starts with groups taking on a relatively small project. And by taking on the relatively small project, they build their capacity to do things, but they also build the capacity of their group and makes their communities stronger. And so this collective efficacy is not just making the space nicer, it's bringing the community together.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

So that gets us to our final tip. Tip number 10. And I've saved the best for last, because this is the idea that we can feel happier in our spaces if we use them to promote healthy forms of grief and nostalgia. And this is a theme that's really woven through your book, in part because of an awful tragedy that your family suffered. And so if you're comfortable with it, tell me about Josie.

[Lydie Klotz]

Yeah, I love talking about Josie. So Josie's my daughter and there's stories of her throughout the book. They were in there before she died, and I didn't want to take them out after she died. She just died suddenly, unexpectedly from a quick illness in 2023. And it was. Losing a four year old is as awful as it sounds. But I love talking about Josie. I love talking about her stories, you know, building sandcastles on the beach or another story of Josie that's in the book is we talked about this idea of functional fixedness. And one of the things I'll never forget about her was she had to have been like two or three. And I walked into the kitchen and there's my daughter sitting at the pantry. So it was just like two full height cabinets. She had just opened both doors of the pantry and moved her high chair over there and was just sitting at the pantry eating. So instead of like having to carry all the food over to the table, she's like, I'm just gonna bring my chair to where the food is. And then I've got all this food at my disposal. It's amazing. So I love being able to share her stories. I think that's one of the ways that the awesome things that she gave to the world keep going. And also, you Know, thinking about, how do we remember her in space? Because obviously, this is a big thing that we try to use our spaces for. I mean, from the Egyptian pyramids right there, to try to make somebody immortal. And a lot of donations to university buildings are. You know, it's worth $50 million for me to have my name on this thing. That's gonna still be up after I'm not here. So I was thinking about that for Josie. And we used to walk between my house and a pond on campus where we would go fishing and mainly just like, throw rocks in. And she'd run around, and she would always take different paths there because she liked exploring. And so one day we took a path that went through old house that the university now owns. So basically, she walked up their yard and then threw some English ivy and then hit a paved path that went to the street. And on that path, the homeowner had, like, put a marble block and inscribed their name in it. So Josie, one benefit of being four is that letters say whatever the heck you want them to say. So she looks at it and she says, that says Josie's Way. I think she kind of knew the double meaning too. Right. Where it's like, this is now. I've just named this path after myself. And also, Josie's way is like my way of being in the world. So we wanted to do something for her in the world that kind of remembered her, remembered her spirit and the idea of a Josie's Way. We made one next to the best playground in town that just goes parallel to it and over some creeks. And it's just a place where kids can go down, ride their bikes, but also get into the woods and explore. And it spreads things that she cared about and would have liked. It makes me happy. And that's, you know, agency. Right.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

I love these stories so much. And one of the things I love kind of knowing about neuroscience is that what you're doing is really using the part of our brain that encodes space to kind of make these memories thicker.

[Lydie Klotz]

Yeah. And I learned this after she died, the neuroscience. And as our brains, you know, adapted to relationships being more important and human connections, they didn't, like, develop new networks. They adapted the networks that were used to code space. Right. So when we talk about being close and distant from somebody, those are spatial terms or having boundaries. That's a spatial thing that has taken on kind of relationship meaning. And, you know, so again, like, trying to reverse engineer that and create spaces that help us remember the person and help spread the spirit of that person.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

It's almost like we're developing these physical experiences that we can go back to to feel the same emotions. Yeah. And so has recognizing this connection between our inner and outer lives affected your happiness positively?

[Lydie Klotz]

I think so. I think I've always paid a lot of attention to it because I care about the physical world and that's like kind of the area that I work in. But I think what's really helped me is homing in on agency, competence and connection because there's just so much there. And I think we can go a really long way to start with these core big three. And that's been what's really helpful for me in kind of just filtering decisions through that.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

It's almost like the next time you're facing a space question, ask yourself, how can this boost my agency? Where am I going to get some competence and growth from this? And how can I promote connection?

[Lydie Klotz]

Yeah, we need to come up with a Zillow or realtor.com profile that like lists the agency, growth and connection scores for the house. But of course they depend, right? So. So they depend on the person.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

I hope this episode has served as a reminder that the spaces around you matter. They're actively shaping your mood, your habits, and even the way you hold on

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

to the people you love.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

The good news is that you don't need to redesign your entire home to feel those benefits. Even small changes like creating a campfire style seating area for guests, noticing your space a bit more or using your surroundings to reflect what you value can make a big difference in your happiness and in the happiness of the people around you. And if you want even more ideas

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

about how to design your space to

[Podcast Host/Producer]

boost your well being, be sure to check out Lidi's new book, In A Good how the Spaces Where We Live, Work and Play Can Help Us Thrive, which is out now.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

If you have thoughts about today's episode,

[Podcast Host/Producer]

we'd love to hear them. You can email us at HappinessLabushkin FM and leave us a review to tell us what resonated. You can also sign up to learn more about the science of happiness and

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

join my free newsletter on my website

[Podcast Host/Producer]

drlaurysantos.com that's D R L A U R I E S A n t o s.com in our next installment on Spring Cleaning youg Happiness, we'll go back to the Happiness Lab archives to share an episode about downsizing your stuff. We'll hear about the joy of letting go and learn why material possessions boost our happiness.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

As much as we assume I mean,

[Lydie Klotz]

there are more storage units than there are McDonald's. It's just ridiculously a symptom of a culture which has become obsessed with possessions. So it's like this demon, this little imp in our mind telling us to buy things and don't throw it away because it might be valuable one day.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

That's all. Next time on the Happiness lab with

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

me, Dr. Laurie Santos.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

Seeking more brightness these days, research shows that simply gazing at bodies of water like the Pacific Ocean can help lower your heart rate and increase feelings of relaxation. Consider a trip to sunny San Diego. Put your toes in the sand, smell and feel the ocean breeze. Spending time in nature can be great for your mental health and as you soak up the bright side, feel your taste buds, your health and your wellness. With a local cuisine fueled by San Diego's year round farm fresh produce, San Diego isn't just a destination, it's a disposition. Come to the bright side. Plan your trip to San Diego by going to sandiego.org funded in part with City of San Diego Tourism Marketing District assessment funds. It's Dr. Laurie Santos. You've probably heard me talk about how our brains benefit from even small changes in environment. There's strong research showing that time in nature, even brief time, can lower stress and improve mood. The challenge is that most of us don't have the time or energy to plan an entire outdoor trip from scratch. That's why I love what auto camp is doing. They combine the restorative benefits of being outdoors with the comforts of a boutique hotel. You can stay in a beautifully designed Airstream or cabin surrounded by trees and open sky, sleep in a genuinely comfortable bed and enjoy spa inspired bathrooms that make it easy to fully unwind. Each location also features a beautiful clubhouse with activities, food and beverage options and inviting lounge spaces designed for gathering and connecting so you get fresh air and stargazing without giving up the ease that helps your nervous system truly settle. If you've been craving a simple reset or a meaningful way to reconnect with people you care about, check out Otto Camp. It's a thoughtful way to get the well being boost nature gives us. With locations from Yosemite to the Catskills, find your Perfect [e-mail] Behavioral science consistently shows that people are more likely to adopt habits that feel simple, clear and achievable. Sunday is a yard care company designed with that insight in mind. They analyze your soil and local climate to build a customized yard plan, removing guesswork and reducing the friction that often prevents homeowners from taking action. Instead of harsh chemicals, sundae uses nutrient dense ingredients like seaweed, molasses and iron. Go to getsunday.com to get your free custom yard analysis.

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[Dr. Laurie Santos]

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