The Hardcore Self-Help Podcast with Duff the Psych

Episode 423: Neurodiversity Playbook with Dr. Matt Zakreski
Date: December 6, 2024
Host: Dr. Robert Duff
Guest: Dr. Matt Zakreski

Episode Overview

This episode features a rich and insightful interview between Dr. Robert Duff and Dr. Matt Zakreski centering on the concept of neurodiversity—what it means, how neurodivergent brains function, and practical approaches to thriving in a neurotypical world. Dr. Zakreski, author of the new “Neurodiversity Playbook,” shares both personal experience and professional expertise, breaking down complex brain science and lived realities for listeners, parents, educators, and anyone interested in inclusion and neurodiverse advocacy.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Dr. Zakreski's Personal and Professional Journey (03:35 – 05:11)

• Gifted Kid, Later-Identified ADHD: Dr. Zakreski was labeled as gifted in second grade but diagnosed with ADHD much later, after struggling academically in high school when sheer intelligence could no longer compensate for executive functioning challenges.
  • “If I had all these resources and privileges and I still got my butt kicked, there are probably kids out there who have fewer resources who are getting their butts kicked even more.” (04:28)
• Performance Cliff Concept: Many gifted (and other neurodivergent) kids excel until academics surpass their intuition, because they haven’t needed to develop essential studying or coping strategies. This “cliff” often happens in high school or college.
  • “School just gets harder and harder until sooner or later school becomes harder than you are smart.” (05:34)

2. Defining Neurodiversity & Key Terminology (07:57 – 10:46)

• Neurotypical vs. Neurodivergent: 80% of brains are “neurotypical”—functioning as expected for age—but 1 in 5 people are “neurodivergent,” with fundamentally different brain structure or function (ADHD, autism, giftedness, dyslexia, etc.).
• Brains Differ in More Than Function: Example—gifted children can have an amygdala up to twice as large as neurotypical children, affecting intensity of feeling and thought.
  • “One out of five people, their brain is fundamentally different in some way… there are differences in function and difference even in form.” (08:45)

3. Common Threads in Neurodivergence (11:06 – 16:34)

• Executive Functioning Challenges: Present in nearly all neurodivergences—ADHD, autism, giftedness, dyslexia.
  • Skills impacted: task initiation/completion, time management, emotion regulation, organization, self-control.
  • Memorable Moment: The “capital city” test, showing impulsivity in executive functioning even among professionals. (12:00)
• Pragmatic Language Difficulties: Neurodivergent individuals often struggle with nuances, implied meaning, and social subtext, leading to feelings of being “wrong-footed” socially, contributing to anxiety.
  • Example: “How you doing?” (Joey Tribbiani impression on the difference in nuance vs. direct language).
• Sensory Processing Differences & Emotional Link (Basal Ganglia Involvement): Neurodivergent brains often feel sensory discomfort more intensely and need individualized compensatory strategies (e.g., sensory issues triggering strong emotional outbursts).
  • Story: Girl’s mood drastically improved when changing a too-tight bra (“I was like Dr. House. I was like, yes, I am God.” (17:23))

4. Concrete Evidence & Brain Science of Neurodiversity (18:19 – 21:03)

• Brain Imaging Support: fMRI studies show distinct patterns in gifted, dyslexic, and twice-exceptional (gifted + dyslexic) brains—this is not “made up.”
  • “We can show you the brain science and, and we’re learning so much more about this.” (19:28)
• Framing for Schools and Families: Key for advocacy—neurodivergent kids’ challenges are neurological, not willful disobedience or failure.

5. What NOT to Do: Outdated Frames and Unhelpful Approaches (21:03 – 25:18)

• Universal Design for Learning: Argues for environments designed for many types of brains, not just accommodations bolted onto a neurotypical system.
  • Memorable quote: “Neurodivergent kids aren’t failed neurotypicals. They just need different things.” (22:48)
• Empathy & Permission for Emotions: The shame and emotional burden (especially in ADHD) must be acknowledged, not just “solved” with skills-building.
  • “There’s just the shame, like that deep shame that comes with, like, I am so sure in my heart of hearts that I’m a screw up.” (24:13)

6. Gender and Neurodiversity: Model Gaps (26:06 – 28:32)

• Research and Diagnostic Bias: Traditional models are based on male/masculine, white, industrialized populations. ADHD and autism often look different in girls, leading to missed or late diagnoses.
• Key Question for Teachers/Parents: “Quiet and compliant don’t mean attentive.” (28:50)
• Normalize Asking for Clarity: Encourage kids to admit “I didn’t catch that” instead of default “yes” responses—prevents shame cycles.

7. Assessment: Strengths and Limits (32:32 – 38:48)

• Problems with DSM/Medical Model: The DSM can be too rigid; real-world assessment involves capturing how difficulties manifest in life, not just ticking diagnosis boxes.
  • “Assessment...is capturing what it looks like and feels like in the real world.” (33:26)
• Value of Specialist Input: Complex neurodivergence often needs deeper understanding and affirming, specialized evaluation—people rarely start with specialists, but those with “the right subtext” help clients get better faster.

8. Making Therapy Work for Kids (39:05 – 42:14)

• Build Rapport Through Interests: Therapy is effective when it’s personalized, ties into kids’ actual interests/fandoms, and fosters trust.
  • “I have a lot of. I. I cannot tell you how many fanfics I’ve read, you know, or like, had conversations about deep Star Wars canon... it serves the fundamental purpose of helping this kid feel seen, helping this kid feel heard.” (41:12)
• Therapy is Individualized Art, Not Just Protocol.

9. The Neurodiversity Playbook: Purpose & Structure (42:43 – 47:44)

• Audience: Anyone neurodivergent, or who loves/works with someone neurodivergent—“so everybody.” (43:00)
• Code-Switching as Core Metaphor: Not about masking or becoming neurotypical, but learning to “crack the code”—developing flexible skills for navigating different social and practical environments.
  • “We don’t want kids to have to mask all the time... how to crack the code.” (45:10)
• Tangibility vs. Platitudes: Book favors actionable, concrete strategies over vague encouragement or dense theory—for example, how to end conversations politely, not just “use a planner.”

10. Practical Examples & Accessibility for Neurodiverse Readers (47:44 – 52:10)

• Sample Practical Tool: “Intent vs. Impact” in social/emotional situations (i.e., “I didn’t mean to upset someone,” vs. the effect it actually had).
• Empathetic, User-Friendly Writing: Chapter concepts are indexed up front, and book is peppered with direct encouragement and breaks (“top off your coffee, take a walk, you’re about to read about executive functioning!”).
• Audiobook Narration: Dr. Zakreski will record the audiobook himself, with plenty of direct address and even his Christopher Walken impression for engagement.

11. Impact, Community, and Final Advice (52:54 – 55:52)

• Book’s Success: Doing “better than [his] wildest expectations,” charting at #1 in Gifted Education, selling strongly nationwide.
• Final Wisdom to Parents and Listeners:
  • “The parenting books that are written are not written for your kid. Right. It’s... we need to sort of scrap that and build something bespoke and then to take that to the next level. Don’t try to do this alone… The power of community educates us, lifts us all up, and most importantly, feels like we’re not alone.” (54:14)
• Find Your Community: Utilize organizations, groups, webinars, support networks—these resources are essential for both neurodivergent individuals and their families.

Notable Quotes

• On Neurodivergence as Difference, Not Defect:

  “Neurodivergent kids aren’t failed neurotypicals. They just need different things.”
  — Dr. Matt Zakreski (22:48)

• On the Performance Cliff:

  “School just gets harder and harder until sooner or later school becomes harder than you are smart.”
  — Dr. Matt Zakreski (05:34)

• On Shame and Lived Experience of ADHD:

  “There’s just the shame, like that deep shame that comes with, like, I am so sure in my heart of hearts that I’m a screw up.”
  — Dr. Matt Zakreski (24:13)

• On Living in a Neurotypical World:

  “The world is built for and by neurotypical people because that’s the vast majority of humans. But one out of five people, their brain is fundamentally different in some way.”
  — Dr. Matt Zakreski (00:15)

• On Code-Switching:

  “It’s not about selling yourself out. It’s about developing another code, another...the ability to switch languages, to navigate different worlds.”
  — Dr. Matt Zakreski (45:30)

Important Timestamps

• 03:35 – Dr. Zakreski’s origin story and authentic advocacy
• 05:28 – Explanation of the “performance cliff”
• 08:24 – Definitions: neurotypical vs. neurodivergent
• 11:06 – Executive function challenges & pragmatic language
• 16:34 – Sensory needs and their real-life impact
• 18:19 – Biological/neurological underpinnings and brain imaging
• 21:17 – Flaws in traditional systems, universal design ideas
• 24:13 – ADHD, shame, and the need for validation
• 26:06 – Gender differences in neurodivergence and diagnostic models
• 32:32 – Assessment challenges and “real world” evaluation
• 39:05 – What makes therapy work for neurodivergent kids
• 42:43 – Who the Neurodiversity Playbook is for and its approach
• 47:44 – Practical examples: code-switching and “intent vs. impact”
• 50:48 – How the book is accessible to neurodivergent readers
• 52:54 – Book’s unexpected success and staying power
• 54:14 – Final advice: “don’t try to do this alone” – value of community

Further Resources

• Dr. Matt Zakreski’s Website: drmatzakresky.com/book
• Book Available On: Amazon, author’s site, conferences
• Support Networks:
  • State gifted organizations
  • National ADHD conference
  • Actually Autistic community panels
  • Bright and Quirky Kids (Debbie Steinberg Kuntz)

This episode is a must-listen for anyone seeking to understand, support, or identify with neurodivergent experiences—rich with science, real talk, and deeply actionable advice.