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The Hardcore Self-Help Podcast with Duff the Psych
423: Neurodiversity Playbook with Dr. Matt Zakreski
00:57:14
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- [00:00]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
I remember a lot of the messaging I got as a kid was like, you'll be successful once you solve your adhd. Or like, if you ever got your shit together, you'd be very good at things. And like, I don't always have my shit together, but I don't. But I also don't know anybody who does.
- [00:15]
Dr. Robert Duff
Right?
- [00:16]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
The world is built for and by neurotypical people because that's the vast majority of humans, right? But one out of five people, their brain is fundamentally different in some way. Understanding your brain, your flavor of neurodivergence, allows you to navigate, navigate systems that are highly neurodivergent, highly neurotypical, and a mix of the both. There's nothing more satisfying to me than being able to say to a family or at school, like, this isn't a choice. This kid isn't choosing not to read. This kid isn't choosing not to pay attention. This kid isn't choosing to have significant sensory needs. Like, these are neurological differences. Neurodivergent kids aren't failed neurotypicals. They just need different things. We call this book the Neurodiversity Playbook because the parenting books that are written are not written for your kid. Right? It's, you know, the strategies that exist are just not going to fit your kid. And so we need to sort of scrap that and build something bespoke and then to take that to the next level. Don't try to do this alone. Foreign.
- [01:28]
Dr. Robert Duff
Hey, friends. This is the hardcore self help podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Robert Duff. I have a very awesome interview today with Dr. Matt Zikreski, the author of the Neurodiversity Playbook. But before I get to that interview, I need to ask you for some questions. I know that I have taken a little bit of a different approach with the podcast recently, doing lots of interviews, playing with the format, and as a result, I've gotten much less questions, many less. I've gotten fewer questions and I need some more. I have some that are coming in at a very slow trickle, but I could use some more variety to craft some really good Q and A shows for you in the future. So if you have a question for me, it could be related to mental health, life, psychology, biology of the brain, relationships, anything like that. Send me a question. You can shoot me an email to duffthesychmail.com or you can go to my website, duffthesych.com and use the contact form there. Likewise, if you have anybody that could use advice, give them my information so they can Send me a question for the show. Now, with that said, who is Dr. Matt Sikresky? Dr. Matt is a psychologist and a professional speaker. He focuses on neurodiversity, and he's passionate for advocating for neurodivergent individuals, which can include people who are gifted, twice exceptional people who have ADHD or dyslexia, or people who have autism. We talk about all those different things in this interview. He has over 400 speaking engagements under his belt, and he specializes in breaking complex psychological concepts down into actionable points. So an approach you'll probably like if you're a fan of my work. Today we're going to be diving into his new book, Neurodiversity Playbook, which offers tools and strategies to help neurodivergent individuals thrive in a world that isn't always built for them. So please enjoy this interview, and of course, like I said, shoot me some questions for future episodes. Enjoy. Okay, everybody, I'm very excited to be sitting down with Dr. Matt Zakreski. Dr. Matt, how are you feeling today?
- [03:18]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
I am so tired. I flew in from our national conference late last night, and, you know, I left myself a pretty easy day today. But, like, the highlight of my day is being here with you, so I'm so tired but excited at the same time.
- [03:36]
Dr. Robert Duff
I'll try to. I'll try to keep you awake. I. I always like asking my guests sort of what we need to know as background. Like, what do we need to know about you to understand why you became interested in neurodiversity as a primary topic?
- [03:54]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
Yeah, I get that question a lot. And my answer almost always starts with, like, the work is personal and professional for me. Like, I was identified as a gifted kid in second grade, and, you know, back when we didn't know as much about being gifted as we do now, we did. You know, no one considered giftedness a neurodivergence in the 90s, you know, but I was also so smart, no one realized I had ADHD until high school when the wheels fell off. So it's like, oh, man. So if I had all these resources and privileges and I still got my butt kicked, like, there are probably kids out there who have fewer resources who are getting their butts kicked even more. So let me use that authenticity of being in the community to advocate for these kids, to help these kids, to show them, like, hey, this is a pathway to own your brain and still be successful. And because I remember a lot of the messaging I got as a kid was like, you'll be Successful once you solve your adhd or like, if you ever got your shit together, you'd be very good at things. And like, I don't always have my together, but I don't, But I also don't know anybody who does.
- [05:05]
Dr. Robert Duff
Right?
- [05:05]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
I mean, yeah, so, yeah, so that's the general origin story.
- [05:11]
Dr. Robert Duff
So you said, you know, as a kid you were, you had so much horsepower essentially that it wasn't a problem, you know, in school, but then in high school, the wheels kind of fell off. What did that look like? How did, how did things start to unraveled during high school? And, and why.
- [05:29]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
So there's, there's actually a term for it in the field, it's called the performance cliff. And I've done some research on this. So basically the idea is that like school as it's made is supposed to get a little bit harder every year, right? And if you're a gifted kid, you're smarter than school is hard, at least for the first several years of your life. But as after a while school just gets harder and harder until sooner or later school becomes harder than you are smart. And whereas your neurotypical peers have been learning things like study skills and asking for help and emotional resiliency, gifted kids, because things are, come pretty easily to them, they don't spend as much time developing those skills. So like in 10th grade, when I couldn't just like white knuckle my way through school anymore, like, I couldn't just like flex my brain and work a little harder, I, I remember telling my mom, it's like, so how is it that people study for things? Like, and that sounds arrogant, right? But I genuinely didn't know. It's like asking like, LeBron James, how do you dunk a basketball? Like LeBron just dunks a basketball, right? Like, he's just really, really, really good at it. So you have to figure, at least for me, it was this, you've got to figure out these brand new skills that everybody else has had a huge head start on you on. Oh, and by the way, it's high school and it's, you're not only failing, struggling one class, it's lots of classes. And even the classes you're not struggling in, you're pulling resources away from those classes to catch up in the other class. And it was, I mean, it was, it was dog fight, my friend. It was just, it was a tough thing. But you know, I, I, in my research on the performance cliff, you talk to a lot of kids who feel it, who end up it Ends up happening sophomore year of college. It's a. That's a major spike in the data points. Because freshman year, it's exciting, right? It's new. You're figuring out, come back for sophomore year, classes are a little bit harder. It's not new anymore. And it's like. And then we see this, oh, my gosh, college is hard thing that happens. But at least I was at home and my parents were there, and I went to a relatively small high school, so, like, people knew me, I could get a lot of supports. I mean, I can't imagine them happening at, like, State U. When you have, like 12,000 freshmen. It's like, excuse me, I need help me, freshman number 6110.
- [07:57]
Dr. Robert Duff
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So you mentioned, you know, in the 90s, there wasn't as much language for this stuff. There is now, but I find that it's very. Especially among people who are. Who are generally neurotypical, the terminology isn't very clear. Can you define some terminology? Like, what is. What do you consider neurodiversity? Like, what does that actually mean? What falls under that umbrella?
- [08:25]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
So, so, you know, most brains are neurotypical, Right. They function more or less as we'd expect a brain to function for that person's age and. And place in life. And so four out of five people are neurotypical. So it's 80% of the world. Right.
- [08:43]
Dr. Robert Duff
That's why it's typical.
- [08:44]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
Yeah. Neurotypical.
- [08:45]
Dr. Robert Duff
Yeah.
- [08:46]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
And if you're, you know, like, since we're mental health professionals, we, you know, I know I spend way too much time thinking about the normal curve, like, way too much, but I'm a neuropsychologist, so. Yes. Yeah. Right. So, like, that 80% of neurotypicality is pretty much analogous to that first standard deviation on the IQ spectrum. There's a little flex in there. But you think about that as a. As a terminology. I mean, the world is built for and by neurotypical people, because that's the vast majority of humans. Right. But one out of five people, their brain is fundamentally different in some way. It's. Usually there are differences in function and difference even in. In form. I mean, one example I caught, I commonly cite when we're talking about gifted kids is the, you know, the gift, the amygdala. And gifted kids can be up to twice as large as in a neurotypical kid. So that's a, you know, that's a sizable difference. And one of the things that is the hallmark of gifted peoples, or I would include Myself here is their intensity, intensity of thought, intensity of feeling. So a larger amygdala is one of the things that explains that. So, and then all the brains in all the world are neurodiversity. So I called my book the neurodiversity playbook. Because understanding your brain, your flavor of neurodivergence, allows you to navigate systems that are highly neurodivergent, highly neurotypical, and a mix of the both. So, you know, I mean, we're all in neurodiversity together, so we just sort of have to figure out how to get along with each other.
- [10:33]
Dr. Robert Duff
So instead of taking things as they're built for one type of brain, recognizing what type of brain they're most built for, and how to navigate that, how to tell the difference. Yeah, okay.
- [10:46]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
What.
- [10:46]
Dr. Robert Duff
What are some underlying concepts that kind of tie together the. You're talking about a lot of different types of people here, right? Some people who are gifted, some people who are gifted and also would be identified with a learning disability. The people, people who are autistic who have adhd. So what are some underlying things that you've identified that bring them together?
- [11:06]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
So in. So basically, like, every neurodivergence has in common challenges with executive functioning. I mean, there's the obvious ones like adhd, which is basically the executive functioning. But we see that in gifted kids. We see that in autistic kids. You know, we see that in dyslexic kids. I mean, that there's a lot of, at best, different functionality in the prefrontal cortex, but often lower executive dysfunction. Right?
- [11:37]
Dr. Robert Duff
Which means what for people listening?
- [11:39]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
So if we figure that the prefrontal cortex handles our executive functioning suite of behaviors, right? So that's task initiation, task completion, time management, organization, self regulation. You know, certainly there's many more, but those are the ones I tend to focus on in my practice. And then I always sort of name this one, especially because I speak at a lot of conferences. This is always fun to do. Wherever I am in the world. I'll ask, what is the capital of the state we're in? And a room full of educated adult professionals will yell it out, right? You know, Boston or, you know, or Austin, Texas, or Madison, Wisconsin. And I always say, like, great, guys, none of you raised your hands. And that's what they do. They have that sort of awkward chuckle. They're like, oh, no. Because when you know something really well, your executive functioning piece of your brain, it doesn't inhibit the behavior, right? It doesn't say, ready, aim, fire. It says ready, fire, aim. And in a room full of adult professionals, we can all laugh about it. But if you're a gifted or twice exceptional third grader sitting in a Ms. Jones's third grade classroom and you yell out the capital of Louisiana's Baton Rouge, you're going to get yelled at because you're violating a social norm. And that's the source of a lot of challenges with these kids and adults too. We also see there's a lot of differences in what we call pragmatic language. Right. So I always say, you know, we're, we're about the same age. Like I'm assuming that you watched Friends growing up.
- [13:18]
Dr. Robert Duff
Yes, sure.
- [13:18]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
Right. So I always say the difference in pragmatic language is the difference between how you doing? And to quote the patron saint of all things, Joey Tribbiani, how you doing?
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Dr. Robert Duff
How you doing?
- [13:30]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
It's the same words, but the implied meaning is different. Right. Then, like in how we deliver tones of voice, body language, and those are things that many neuro. Neurodivergent people miss. Right. And so when kids are younger, you don't see those challenges as much. Right. Because kids tend to be actually very strong communicators because when they're co creating a game, they're like, I want you to do this and this and this and this. A lot of things are named and overt. But think about middle school, high school. Like, then it's like if, you know, if a girl that you like says like, oh my God, stop. Is that oh my God, stop like it's flirty or is it oh my God, stop like I'm about to call the school counselor? Right? Yeah. And if your brain doesn't pick up on those nuances, you are sort of always feeling wrong footed. And this is where we see a lot of social anxiety, a lot of emotional dysregulation. Because, you know, kids say like, I'm constantly feel like I'm having to translate in real time. Right. Like what do people mean?
- [14:29]
Dr. Robert Duff
And that's hard and exhausting.
- [14:32]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
Exhausting. Yeah, it's a great word for it. Yeah.
- [14:35]
Dr. Robert Duff
Because you're running, you're running two processes at the same time, essentially. Okay, so you're saying executive functioning, those higher level skills, and then pragmatic language, actually understanding the nuance of language, the assumptions that come naturally to people who might be neurotypical, those are some of the things that tie people together. Is there anything else that that comes to mind?
- [14:59]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
Let's also, it's also let's. I mean, like, I Could. You're gonna have to, like, stop me at some point. One other thing I like to point out is a very concrete, tangible difference is the basal ganglia. So. Basal ganglia, Right. For our friends out there, it's a. It's a reward circuit, you know, I mean, it's highly indicated in obsessive compulsive disorder. It's highly indicated in autism. And what we see is that it's highly interconnected with our thalamus, which is our relay station in our brain, and our cerebellum, which is a regulatory system. And you. I. I know you know this. You know, but the idea is, like, what we see in neurodivergent people, that when that basal ganglia fires and there's a discomfort that comes with that, you feel the discomfort more acutely, which means your body is seeking a compensatory strategy.
- [15:58]
Dr. Robert Duff
A solution of some kind.
- [15:59]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
Of some kind. Right. The compulsion that serves the obsession or the. You know, a lot like one of the other major differences in neurodivergent kids, and this was a steep learning curve for me, was sensory needs. So if we think about our parietal lobe on top of our brain, much more interconnected, far more connections to our limbic system. So the sensory input we get is directly impacted by that emotional processing. Right? So it's not like, oh, gosh, I don't like that sound. It's. That sound makes me want to scream. Or it's like.
- [16:33]
Dr. Robert Duff
Or something more extreme.
- [16:34]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
Right? And I. I mean, I tell this story at conferences a lot. I was asked to consult with a young woman here in New Jersey a couple years ago. You know, gifted kid, like, good citizen. Like, everybody loved her. And all of a sudden, she turned into hell on wheels, man. I'm like. And, you know, so they brought me in. They're like, you're an expert in this. See if we can help this kid out. And, like. So we did all the mental health checklist. Like, was it depression? Do her parents getting divorced? Is she being abused? It. Was she exposed to some trauma that we don't know about? She denied everything. Was like, what are we missing? And after. At the end of our third session, I was like, listen, I need to know. Is there anything we haven't talked about? Is there anything in your life that's different? So the only thing that's different in my life, Dr. Mattis, I'm wearing this stupid bra. And she had just gone from wearing a training bra to a bra with an underwire in it, and it was too small for Her. So she had a tight metal band jamming into her rib cage every day. And that tension, which she didn't have language for, was just causing her to be in a worse mood. And it was building on itself and getting all that negative reinforcement in the environment. So, I mean, I. You know, you and I, like, are. The work we do is not exactly, like, curative in nature. It's not like, oh, I've solved the problem. That was the. That was the only time in my career where, like, we did an intervention. And the next day, the kid was back to normal. I was. I felt like Dr. House. I was like, yes, I am. God.
- [18:06]
Dr. Robert Duff
I've had situations like that where it's like somebody is hallucinating that they're covered in snakes at night. And it's like, oh, you have striped sheets. Get plain sheets. Problem solved.
- [18:16]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
Snap.
- [18:17]
Dr. Robert Duff
Yeah.
- [18:18]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
I love it.
- [18:19]
Dr. Robert Duff
Okay, now, one thing I'm hearing as you talk about this is there are some biological, neurological underpinnings for this stuff. You talked about the amygdala being bigger. You talked about some of the circuits being more active in the parietal level. You were saying that, like, people actually have. People who are neurodiverse. Have more. Or neuro. Divergent, I should say, have more connectivity in that sensory portion.
- [18:43]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
Yep.
- [18:44]
Dr. Robert Duff
Oh, wow. Okay. So that's from imaging studies and stuff like that.
- [18:50]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
Yeah, a lot of fmris. The University of Connecticut, University of Virginia, Johns Hopkins University, Stanford, Northwestern, Purdue. These are the schools that really do this research.
- [19:03]
Dr. Robert Duff
So you're not just making stuff up.
- [19:05]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
I mean, I'll send you some citations if you like.
- [19:09]
Dr. Robert Duff
No, well, it's good to know, right? Because people. I think that people who are outside of that might criticize, like, well, everybody. You know, everybody's neurodivergent. Everybody has this issue or that issue. And, you know, having some concrete evidence that there are differences in brains is really valuable information.
- [19:29]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
Yeah, there's. There's one study that they released one. One of the images. And, I mean, I'll even send it to you if we. If we have to throw it in the show notes because it's so fascinating, because it shows a control brain, which we can call neurotypical, a gifted brain, a dyslexic brain, and a gifted and dyslexic brain. And when you look at these scans, the brain lights up as it's. Right as it's being activated. So we see a very particular pattern of activation in a gifted brain and a very different pattern of activation in a dyslexic brain, but the twice exceptional brain that has both of them. It is very clearly the middle ground between those two. And I show that to just administrators a lot because it's like we're not like, to echo what you said, we're not making this up. Like, we can show you the brain science and, and we're learning so much more about this. I mean, I, there's nothing more satisfying to me than being able to say to a family or at school, like, this isn't a choice. This kid isn't choosing not to read. This kid isn't choosing not to pay attention. This kid isn't choosing to have significant, significant sensory needs. Like these are neurological differences. And if we accept that, then what we're doing is we're raising that kid's floor so we can hopefully someday raise their ceiling. Because when we move at this from a place of understanding, then we are trying to translate something that makes sense rather than trying to fix something that we think is broken.
- [21:03]
Dr. Robert Duff
What are, what are some of the approaches or even perspectives that you would consider unhelpful or wrong about neurodiverse people in schools or parenting?
- [21:17]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
So we're, we're really trying to place, put, push for a place of universal design. And the universal design is basically the things that are the most equitable are the best practices, right? Like instead of having a staircase into your school and the ramp is way over there, what if we just had a ramp? Everybody can walk up the ramp, right? Whether you're in a wheelchair or crutches or whatever. We should teach every kid at the level they need to be taught at rather than assuming that a second grader needs to learn addition and subtraction. Some second graders do. Some second graders still need to learn their numbers and some second graders want to do calculus. I, I work with those kids. I, I sucked at calculus. I don't know about you. I was bad at it. So like these kids are like, oh, Dr. Matt. And then I did this thing with this co tangent and I'm like, yeah, this awesome. Love it. It's a very, very cool words you're using just now, right? And then like from a, from a mental health perspective, it's really sort of focusing on a skill building perspective, you know, like, I'm going to teach you strategies to navigate these situations. But just like, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm very extroverted and I married an introvert. One of the things that really like sort of recalibrated our relationship when we're dating is my Wife basically sat down, she's like, I'm an introvert. I transmit energy differently than you. I need different things. She said, but I am not a failed extrovert. I don't need to be you. I don't want to be you. I want to do things my way and I'll meet you in the middle when I have to. And that was, to me was like, oh my gosh, that's exactly it. Like, neurodivergent kids aren't failed neurotypicals. They just need different things. Right? And I can code switch and be very neurotypical if I, you know, if I need to. If I, you know, if someone's like, hey, we'd like you to keynote at our event. I'm like, I am the most neurotypical person. Like, yes, business numbers. But when I'm with my colleagues or I feel comfortable, you know, I'm a, you know, certainly a little bit more atypical, let's say.
- [23:35]
Dr. Robert Duff
Sure, yeah. That's a very, very solid point. The neuro divergent people are not failed neurotypicals because I think as you illustrated, you know, 90s, certainly previous to that, that's probably how most felt. Yeah. Yeah. Is that how you felt?
- [23:57]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
Oh, absolutely. I mean, I would, I would like scream at my brain, like, let me just do this thing. Like, why are you doing this to me? Like that ADHD paralysis where you're laying there on the couch and you, you're scrolling through your phone and your mom walks by, you're like, you. Like, my mom would never say, like, lazy piece of shit, but like, in my head that's how, right? Like, I can't believe you're not doing anything. I'm like, my brain is paralyzed by all the things it could do, and as a result, I do nothing. And I know for me at least, the ADHD conversations I had as a kid were all about executive functioning. Build your focus, build that muscle. I don't really feel like we talked enough about the emotionality that comes with being adhd, right? The, the intense emotions, how often ADHD kids feel angry. But also the just the shame, like, that deep shame that comes with, like, I am so sure in my heart of hearts that I'm a screw up. And I'm just sort of waiting for somebody to spring that trap on me and be like, yes, we've known you're a screw up the whole time. And like, you know, really just giving kids permission to name that and, and give that some oxygen, because that's just, that's an anchor around your neck, man, so hard.
- [25:18]
Dr. Robert Duff
Rather than just hear the skills to solve your adhd.
- [25:22]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
Right.
- [25:23]
Dr. Robert Duff
Like saying, hey yeah, it, it sucks to be in this world that wasn't made for you. And that can hurt your self concept. Yeah, sorry, that hurts. Just empathy. What about. So, so my wife is also very introverted, you know, neurodivergent ADHD quite possibly on the spectrum. And you know, she talks to me a lot about how even within perspectives about neurodiversity, it's all often very male centric. Right. We focus on. Oh yeah. It presents in men what that looks like and that's really what a lot of models are built off of. What do you, what are your thoughts about that?
- [26:06]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
Oh man, I, I also props to your wife. Right. Like snaps like very good. You know, in. When you were in grad school, did they ever you. The psychology is weird.
- [26:19]
Dr. Robert Duff
W E I R D I do not remember.
- [26:23]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
Yeah. So it's like so many of the studies are white, educated, industrialized. Right. Like I, I forget what the other two are. But like, you know, so like, but we, we represent that dominant paradigm. And so, you know, I was just actually on a podcast about this. It's called Find the ADHD Girls and we're talking about like why is this a thing? Right. So we know that, we know that ADHD people in general, you know, boys and kids assigned male at birth tend to be more hyperactive type and girls and people assigned female at birth tend to be more inattentive type. And, and this becomes really important because if you're a classroom teacher and most referrals for this come from classroom teachers. You've got 26 kids and you're room, you're not going to notice the quiet kid in the corner who's looking out the window. You're going to notice the kids who are having sword fights with their rulers or the kid who's like trying to like gargle thumbtacks or climb the flag pole, right. Like you're going to notice the big behaviors and maybe you've got a, a small question in your brain about Sally, but her grades are okay and she's a good kid in class. And frankly, you've got bigger problems, right? And it's. And at home, you know, like at home you can hide, right? There are fewer demand tasks and those are the kids who I think really suffer in silence, right? They suffer in this sort of like no one's going to understand it because like there's, you know, if you look at the societal, you know, Pop culture versions of ADHD out there, they're all, almost all this hyperactive, ridiculous, awkward, goofy type. And yes, that's a lot of my practice looks like that. But it's, there's something very rewarding about helping a kid see that ADHD is so much more than that. And when we can raise awareness of that, then teachers and coaches and parents and admin, they start finding words because they're asking the right questions, not just trying to see things through one lens.
- [28:33]
Dr. Robert Duff
What are some of those right questions? Like how can maybe a parent listening or a teacher listening or somebody like that not fall into that trap of really focusing only on one subtype?
- [28:47]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
My go to there is quiet and compliant. Don't mean attentive. I think that's really important because it's very easy to mistake quiet for, for quiet for attending. But I mean, a lot of times in school I was very quiet. I was like, but in my head, like I'm playing Dave Matthews Band live at Red Rocks and I'm just like, yep, yep, top notch. Whatever, whatever. Yep. I think that was Millard Fillmore. Love, love me some Millard Fillmore. That's top notch. Yes, very, very, very good. And when you're a brain, right kid, you learn how to cut corners. You learn how to like, sort of like do what I like to call the ADHD scramble, where it's like, oh, that's due in like six minutes. Here's something you get, you want on it and nobody, nobody knows. And it's funny, like technology in some ways has really helped ADHD kids because like back in the day, like, they would write this, the homework on the board, right? Read pages 16 through 45 tonight. And teachers tend to write that at the board at the beginning of class or at the end of class. The two times in class where kids are most dysregulated, right? And it's easy to think how your hyperactive types are going to miss that because they're running around. But the inattentive types are having trouble doing that task switching piece of executive functioning. I was in gym class, now I'm in English class. I need to move my brain from English class. I'm from gym class to English class. But in the way that how much bandwidth that takes up in our brain, that's when you're gonna miss those details, those little moments where the teacher's like, remember guys, there's a quiz tomorrow. You're, you're bringing. So busy running other things, right? Yeah. Huh. Sure. Great. Yep, yep, yep. You know, I Tell parents all the time. It's like, don't let your kid. Yes, you to death. Right. Like, ask questions for understanding, not just compliance. Right. Like, I'll say to my own kids, I'm like, hey, can you go get me that thing? Like, sure, dad. I'm like, what did I ask you to do? They'll go, I'm like, I'm not trying to catch you. This isn't like a gotcha journalism moment. This is a. It's easy to say, sure. Especially when you're a little bit anxious and self conscious about the fact you weren't really paying attention. Right. And then. But if you can have that sort of vulnerability, resiliency, whatever word you want to use to say. Hold on. Actually, sorry, hold on. I didn't hear that. I did not attend to the thing. I said yes, because I want to say yes, but I'm not sure what I'm saying yes to. And if you can normalize those kinds of conversations, then it short circuits the tendency of ADHD kids to get into cycles of blame and shame. You should do this. But I didn't do it. Well, why aren't you doing it? Because I didn't know about it, but I told you it. And down and down and down it goes. Right. So, you know, making sure that people actually are following what we say goes a long way to getting out in.
- [31:45]
Dr. Robert Duff
Front of those problems and not creating that cycle of feeling like they're in trouble all the time for who they are as a person.
- [31:54]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
Yeah.
- [31:56]
Dr. Robert Duff
These are, these are great. You know, these are great things to look out for and great tips. I appreciate that. You know, if I had asked you, do you feel like it's any different in women? You might be like, yeah, versus, like, what do you have to say about that? So, yeah, example in in vivo, what's your perspective on assessment? You know, like, there are. You can go to your doctor and say, I think I have X, Y, xyz. You know, can you help me? There are certainly specialists and stuff. But, like, what's your perspective overall about where assessment stands right now for these things?
- [32:32]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
I mean, unfortunately, it's still really lacking. I think it's way too tied to the dsm, which, listen, we have to have standards of practice. We have to be able to speak the same language. But in one of my workshops, I do, and these are usually geared at teachers or parents and not mental health professionals. Maybe I'm like, here are five cases from my caseload kids who were referred to me for something else who ended up also Being gifted, what do you think they were referred for? And I'm not citing chapter and verse from the dsm, right. Like, to have dyslexia, you have to be one and a half grade levels below what we would expect you to be. Like, what does that mean? Mean to a third grade teacher, it doesn't mean anything.
- [33:18]
Dr. Robert Duff
Yeah, right.
- [33:19]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
But I can say a kid who works their ass off not to go into the English class. A kid who's always losing their book. Right? Like a kid who spends most of the, most of their class echoing what other people say. Like, I think Tom Sawyer is, you know, is, is on a hero's journey. I also think Tom Sawyer is on a hero's journey because aren't we all. Aren't. I mean, not. Right. So I like to do that stuff because that's what assessment to me is really about. It's capturing what it looks like and feels like in the real world. And so that's why, that's why I always ask, you know, when, you know, when I do my Connors, when I do my autism questionnaire, when I do my rads, like, you know, I certainly get those data because we need data. I love data. But on the other side, like, I am also trying to always ask those confederates, like mom, dad, soccer coach, you know, ccd, Girl Scouts, Boy Scouts, you know, with my high school kids, I, I'll like, if you'll give me a permission, I'd love to talk to your significant other. Right.
- [34:27]
Dr. Robert Duff
That's a great one because that's where.
- [34:29]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
You let those guards down a lot, right? And, and you hear stuff like, oh my gosh, I can tell when they're paying attention to me because there's. I feel like I'm the only person in the universe, but I also can totally tell when their brain is miles away. And it's just, it's so, you know, it's so heartwarming to just see the humanity in it because I think that, I think the thing that psychology has done wrong or maybe missed the boat on is that we tried to follow the medical model, right? Like if you have pneumonia, you have pneumonia. Like, that's just, it's a thing. That's what that is. We can see it on the scan.
- [35:08]
Dr. Robert Duff
My kid in the other room literally just got a check chest X ray and has pneumonia right now.
- [35:13]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
It's, it's everywhere. I mean, I'm pretty sure my kid has it too. Like, it's got a very typical raspy cough, right. It's like a very much a thing and you listen to the chest thing and it sounds like snap, crackle and pop in there. Not a great thing.
- [35:27]
Dr. Robert Duff
But like, you look at it on an X ray, you get antibiotics. That is what it is.
- [35:31]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
Check, check. Good. But like, when you and I, who are mesolocrovers, we're like, well, what is depression? Like, I know when I see it, I know when I feel it. We can talk about serotonin, but it's, it's fundamentally more nebulous and it's fundamentally more personal. Right. Like the diagnostic manual. People with depression can, can overeat or under eat, they can hypersleep or under sleep. And it's like if, if you said that to a layperson, they'd be like, I'm sorry, that's insane. And we're like, yeah, it's like a.
- [36:03]
Dr. Robert Duff
Zodiac thing, like the horoscope, you know.
- [36:07]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
Spin the wheel of mental illness, let's go. And yeah, it's wild. Right? So.
- [36:13]
Dr. Robert Duff
But you do know when you see it?
- [36:14]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
Yeah, we know it when we see it. And that's why this work is always going to be more fundamentally personal. Right. So we need like a true biopsychosocial of that person. Right. And, you know, and, and if we're being realistic, that takes time and talent and relationships with clients. And if you're like, you know, I remember being in community mental health and they were like, okay, well, we need to diagnose these kids. I was like, I'm a fourth year grad student, I'm not supposed to diagnose anybody. They're like, well, we need. The insurance needs to know what we're seeing them for. I'm like, the kid says they have ocd. Like, I guess they have ocd then, like, what a broken system this is. Right, right. You know, so it's.
- [37:03]
Dr. Robert Duff
And then that stays on their problem list for the rest of their life forever.
- [37:07]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
Right. And, you know, so, I mean, it's, it's a thing where the system is stacked against us to do this work. Well, but. And that's where I think specialists do come in. I think that, you know, as a country seems, we've. We seem to celebrate the death of expertise. I want to push back, I want to do the other direction, like, you know, because, like, your kid has pneumonia. I hope they don't need to go see a specialist. But it's if, like, I would want them to see a lung doctor if they had to see a lung doctor.
- [37:42]
Dr. Robert Duff
Right, right.
- [37:43]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
Rather than just constantly going back to your GP to get more amoxicillin Right. Like, I tell people all the time, like, why I would bet you see this in your practice, too. Nobody starts with us.
- [37:55]
Dr. Robert Duff
Rarely.
- [37:56]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
Right. You know, it's like, most of the time, people have tried a couple other providers, a couple other things. It hasn't been customized as specific enough, hasn't been neurodivergent affirming enough for them to get full benefit out of what they're doing. But then you get to a provider that gets it, that does specialize, who can speak the subtext around this stuff. And I think it's much more affirming. I think people feel more seen, and then they get better faster. Which is like, the weird part of what we do is like, we need to make ourselves irrelevant. Like, I don't want you to see me forever. Right. I want you to go on, live your life.
- [38:31]
Dr. Robert Duff
We're not chiropractors. Yeah. We want to work ourselves out of a job, not maintain a job forever.
- [38:43]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
Yeah, yeah. You're not wrong.
- [38:49]
Dr. Robert Duff
Before I ask you some specifics about the book, there was one. You know, I send out a few kind of screener questions to my guests, and one thing I like to ask is something you don't talk about enough, you don't get to talk about enough. And what you wrote down was making therapy work for kids. What do you mean by that?
- [39:06]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
I think that a lot of times. So my mentor in grad school, a tremendous psychologist named Dr. Michael Cassano, he's like, I was great at manualized CBT treatment. Like, I would do these R1 studies, and my protocols always looked the same. I did this intervention, then this intervention, then this processing, then this intervention. And then here's your worksheet. Go home. And he's like, you're never going to be that guy like you are. You are too individualized for that. And he's like, and that's not a bad thing. But I think kids need to feel safe and they need to connect to things at sort of a more fundamental personal level, you know? So I can't tell you how many parents are like, well, Johnny has got to get his grades up. I need Johnny to get his grades up. And I talked to Johnny. He's like, I couldn't care less about my grades. I'm like, yeah, I get that. I didn't really care about my grades in high school either. I was like, but I know you're on the tennis team. He's like, yeah, I got to keep a B average or I can't play tennis. I'm like, so let's keep that B average so you can play tennis. Right. You know, so you can have a date to the prom for somebody on the other tennis team. Right? Like that. We can make that happen. But, you know, to build that rapport with kids because the trust is so important. Like, a lot of times, like, I play a lot of Uno. Like, I have a lot of. I. I cannot tell you how many fanfics I've read, you know, or like, had conversations about deep Star wars canon, because that wasn't to build rapport with. With. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. I'm a professional nerd, right? Like, I was like, absolutely, we'll talk about Lord of the Rings back canon with you. Absolutely. But it serves the fundamental purpose of helping this kid feel seen, helping this kid feel heard. And most importantly, if you're doing your job, there is good therapeutic content in their fandoms, in the things they share with you, because. Behaviors, communication. If a kid wants to talk to me about how their favorite. Their favorite superheroes, Deadpool, not because he curses all the time, but because Deadpool is sort of like omnisexual, then the kid is communicating something with you. Right? Like, okay, like, I'm just playing that scene in the back of my head right now. Like, you know, I had a kid who's like, I really like. I really like Percy Jackson because I find, like, the Greek myths really interesting. And. And we had a lot of conversations about mythology and his Greek heritage and. And like, you know, concepts of like, destiny and legacy and family and it, you know, that was a really cool thing, right, that it's so much more than what it appears on the surface. But I think, I think with adult. A lot of the adults I see, like, they come to therapy, like, hey, I had a fight with my partner. Can we talk about that? That's like concrete, direct, to the point kids, it's. We need to be more welcoming and meet them where they are. And I think that's a. That's the art to making this work for kids.
- [42:14]
Dr. Robert Duff
Yeah, beautiful. I definitely had those experiences. Well, as you were talking about, you know, Deadpool, Percy Jackson, I remember talking about, you know, video games, right. Kid who's super into playing World of Warcraft, and it's like, okay, so why do you always play, you know, the. The Tank character that soaks up damage from. For your party? Well, that's who I am. That's what I am. My family, you know, and, yeah, very fruitful. So, yes, I think that's great advice. Tell me about the book itself.
- [42:44]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
How Is it structured?
- [42:44]
Dr. Robert Duff
Who is it, you know, who's actually for.
- [42:48]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
So I. I was joking around with this, with my editor. I was like, this. This book is for anybody who is neurodivergent, works with someone who's neurodivergent or loves someone who's neurodivergent. Right.
- [42:59]
Dr. Robert Duff
So everybody.
- [43:01]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
Yes, exactly. See, that was what my editor said, and she was like, oh, that's diabolical. I'm like, it's not diabolical. I mean, it's a little diabolical, but, like, it's. That's the thing. Like, the reason I say this 4 out of 5, 1 out of 5 thing all the time is that neurodivergence isn't some one niche thing. I mean, if 20% of people are neurodivergent, that's. Think Thanksgiving. We're recording this right before Thanksgiving. If you have more than 10 people at your Thanksgiving, odds are at least one of them is neurodivergent. Right? Like, odds are gang. And, like, when you think about certain fields or groups, you're gonna run into a lot more neurodivergence than other places. I got to give a talk at NASA earlier this year. Year. And I was talking to their. One of their communications experts, and he's like, oh, man, do you think there's a lot of neurodivergent people here? I was like, at. At. At. At NASA. Yeah. Couldn't possibly be full with gifted and autistic people. Never. Never. Not once. That's so weird. And so, like. Yeah, I mean it. Regardless of where you are in life, you're going to run into a neurodivergent person. And if you have a playbook that helps you connect with them more effectively, you are getting the best version of that person. And we know that neurodivergent people are often underutilized resources. So it's a. Whether that's in the classroom, the boardroom, or in your family or in your kitchen, like, tapping into that stuff is like it's lighting a rocket ship. You just need to know how. What's the fuse?
- [44:39]
Dr. Robert Duff
So tell me more about the book, then. So what is it? Like, how is it structured? What is the book? What is it?
- [44:48]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
So it started as me sort of writing down my 10 most popular talks. And then I realized they didn't have a through line. Like, it was just 10 chapters of me giving talks. And frankly, you can find that on YouTube. Right. And I realized that one of the things I have always felt in my life as a neurodivergent person is it is that everybody else seems to have access to some sort of code, some sort of, like, neurotypical monoculture that, like, did you all have a meeting and not invite me? Was like, did I miss the Facebook invite? What's the deal here? And how othering that can feel and. And yet to push to not have kids, have to mask all the time and pretend to be neurotypical, or how to try and turn people's brains from neurodivergent to neurotypical because we don't want either of those ideas. The metaphor that runs through the book is how to crack the code. And it all comes down to the idea of code switching. So I mentioned before, if I'm trying to book a keynote somewhere, I am very professional, I'm very poised, I'm very doing all the things I need to do. And, you know, and when I see a client who's like, gifted, adhd, autistic, dyslexic, you know, and, you know, it's just bouncing all over the place like, I'm gonna let myself be as, you know, neurospicy as I need to be. So it's a. It's not about selling yourself out. It's about developing another code, another, you know, the ability to switch languages, to navigate different worlds. Because I want my neurodivergent clients to get jobs and have dates and be successful in college interviews and everything else that the broader systems of society require us to do in a very particular way. Right. So, you know, so I. I hate these books that are like that. This sort of baby it, like, oh, like, you know, you just gotta love yourself. Like, that's. That's not anything. Or it's like all this, like, brain science and theory, but nothing tangible.
- [46:56]
Dr. Robert Duff
Yeah.
- [46:57]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
So to me, like, if my talent as a psychologist and a speaker is the ability to take a concept, distill it to an action point, and say, hey. So when you're in a conversation with somebody and you want to learn, leave the conversation, Right. Here are some strategies that you can use to exit a conversation that are not considered rude, but also don't mean you have to stay in there for four hours as pee drips down your leg, because you don't know how to exit a conversation. Right. And. And I find that when you can give people strategies, you add tools to their toolbox. And then, you know, then you get into this wonderful thing where they feel more competent so they feel more confident. When they feel more confident, they feel more competent. When they feel more and it becomes a virtuous cycle, not a vicious one.
- [47:45]
Dr. Robert Duff
The conversation ender is a good example. Do you have any other kind of practical tips in there that you might throw out as an example that you give in the book?
- [47:56]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
One of my. One of my favorite ones. And this gets us sort of the broad social, emotional space is the difference between intention and impact, right? So if you and I are playing catch, right? I'm throwing the ball to you, you throwing ball back to me, you throw it to me. I miss the ball. It hits me, breaks my nose, right? Now I'm covered in blood. Now, I'm gonna ask you this, you know, you know, mental health professionals, mental professional. Did you want to break my nose today because that was your game plan.
- [48:26]
Dr. Robert Duff
No comment.
- [48:27]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
Yeah, but I was like, boy, he thought about that for a minute, gang.
- [48:31]
Dr. Robert Duff
No, of course not.
- [48:34]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
And because a lot of neurodivergent kids we see, you know, especially in giftedness, adhd, and autism, we see these kids like, I didn't mean to. Like, I know you didn't, buddy. Right. I know that you were just messing around with your buddy and you pulled the fire alarm. I get it. But it doesn't change the fact that the fire alarm is pulled. It doesn't change the fact that my nose is broken. Right? But once you. So this gets into these, like, I honor your. Your intention, and we can process what the impact of that was. And then if the environment is willing, you can re. You can back. Chain that back to their intention. It's like, listen, you're absolutely right that this kid's nose is broken, but there is a big difference between I walked up to you and sucker punched you, and we were just throwing a frisbee around on the quad, and it. And I missed. Like, it doesn't change. It change the impact, but it changes the lens through which we use it. And I find that to be so helpful for a lot of parents in particular, because you'll go 43 rounds with your kid over whether they meant to do it or not. But those aren't helpful conversations, right? They don't move the conversation forward.
- [49:41]
Dr. Robert Duff
Yeah, great. One thing for me, so I'm an author as well, and one thing that is really important to me in writing is I don't know if there's a better term for it. I try to call it, like, empathetic writing. Like, writing for the person that's actually reading the book. So somebody who has severe anxiety doesn't want a tome about anxiety because that's impossible for them to process. Right. What about for this book? How is the neurodiversity book for neurodiverse people? Like how is it? How has that been kept in mind?
- [50:14]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
Oh my gosh. Well, so there's two things. Like one is my line editor went through and she's like, you know, there's this like a 280 page book. So she page marked every concept in the book. So it's not like a glossary, it's at the chapter. So it's like if you want to learn the scooper technique for executive functioning. Right. That's on page 187. And I just love that because I can be really strategic with this. But the executive functioning thing in particular, I'm going to actually like try and quote this directly.
- [50:46]
Dr. Robert Duff
Yeah.
- [50:48]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
So you know, so chapter five is executive functioning and it opens with hooray. It's everybody's favorite topic, Executive functioning. This chapter is going to be a real blast. Make sure you top off your copy, grab some song peppermint gum, maybe take a quick walk around the block. We have to get our brains and bodies ready to talk about executive functioning. So if you're listening to this audio book, feel free to bump up it to one and a half speed and get yourself a treat because this is going to be hard for you. But it's really necessary. So we are absolutely level setting. Like I'm throwing in some strategies but this isn't like, you know, like I'm not the sage on the stage, I'm the guide on the side. Right? Like I know this is hard for you to listen to or hear because how many times have you heard some version of this conversation in your life? It doesn't end with me handing you a planner and say like, hey man, use this planner. It's going to solve everything. Right? Because that's not, that's not empowering, that's not specific, you know, And I just, you know, so it's sort of filled with moments like that where like I'm trying to be very almost like breaking the fourth wall. Honestly. Like I'm just like, hey, going to speak directly to you right now. Like this is a tough chapter to read. Give yourself some self care or like, you know, if you feel free to skip through the parts of this you don't need. Right. Take what you want, leave what you don't.
- [52:10]
Dr. Robert Duff
Good.
- [52:11]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
Yeah.
- [52:11]
Dr. Robert Duff
Did you record the audiobook? Like is it, you reading it?
- [52:14]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
So the way my contract was written is that If I sold 2,000 books by Christmas, I get to record it and we have Just crossed that number. So sometime in.
- [52:24]
Dr. Robert Duff
Will be recording it.
- [52:25]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
Yes. I am so excited. I, like, I put in a whole thing in there about thought changing just so I could do my Christopher Walken impression. And I was. I was like, I get to do a. Like, it's gonna be. How's your wife feel about that? She. She's like, that's a good one. She's like, not all of your impressions are good, but that's. That. That one I've worked really hard on. Very good. Yeah.
- [52:48]
Dr. Robert Duff
Well, hey, congrats about that. That's awesome.
- [52:50]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
Thank you.
- [52:50]
Dr. Robert Duff
So that implies that the book is already doing well.
- [52:54]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
Yeah, it's exceeded my wildest expectations. I mean, I never thought I would write a book. I would. Never thought people would want to read it. And here we are, and, like, we're still tracking number one in gifted education. That's been almost a month now. And, you know, I mean, like, it seems to really have some staying power. I mean, we sold so many books at the national conference. I mean, I, Like, I. You know, I almost brought me to tears, honestly. Like, I. Yeah, you know, it's. It's so flattering, I guess, is the word I would want to use. Like, you know, and there's no false modesty here. Like, I. I'm not a good enough actor to have any false modesty. I'm like, no. This literally blows my mind. Right. I am shocked by this. So it's a nice problem to have.
- [53:42]
Dr. Robert Duff
Amazing. And that means it's going to hopefully really help a lot of people. So that. And that's the idea. Right? So that's. That's awesome. That's awesome. Before we start wrapping up.
- [53:57]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
What. What.
- [53:58]
Dr. Robert Duff
What would you like to say last to the people listening? You know, in terms of. There's a lot of people out there who are neurodivergent. There's a lot of people out there who maybe raising neurodivergent kids. Is there a final piece of wisdom or advice that you might have for them?
- [54:14]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
Absolutely. You know, and we call this book the Neurodiversity playbook, because the parenting books that are written are not written for your kid. Right. It's. You know, the strategies that exist are just not going to fit your kid. And so we need to sort of scrap that and build something bespoke and then to take that to the next level. Don't try to do this alone. Like, you know, they say it takes a village to raise a child. Do you know the rest of that proverb is that. And it takes village to raise that child's parent. Right. So is that true? Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's the full version of the pro. Of the. Of the quote. Just like the EP always say, the customer is always right, but the original quote was the customer's always right in matters of taste.
- [55:02]
Dr. Robert Duff
So important context there.
- [55:04]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
Very important context. Right. So, like, Joe, like, go to your state gifted organization, you know, see if you can go to the national ADHD conference. There are. So the. The actually autistic group puts all these. These panels together. And. And it's one of those things, like, even if you never meet these people in person, even if you're just dialing into the webinar, like, like my colleague Debbie Steinberg codes. She has a group called Bright and Quirky Kids. And they get kids from. I'm. I've seen kids from their webinars from like, UAE to New Zealand to Nepal to like, San Francisco. Right. And. But the power of community educates us, lifts us all up, and most importantly, feels like we're not alone. Right. There's. Because being neurodivergent can feel very lonely.
- [55:53]
Dr. Robert Duff
Do you mind sharing some of the. Like, maybe links to some of the good organizations as a starting place that I can throw into the show notes?
- [55:59]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
Absolutely. Cool.
- [56:01]
Dr. Robert Duff
Cool. I know it's always hard to know, like, between organizations or Facebook groups or what kind of. Where to start with some of these things. Awesome. Where should people be looking out for the book? Where would you like people to search for it?
- [56:16]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
Well, so you can get on. Buy it on my website, drmatzikresky.com book. We really overthought that one. You can also get it on Amazon. I have an author page and everything. And if I am at a conference near you, I will almost certainly have them with me. So I'll sign it for you and everything. Yeah.
- [56:41]
Dr. Robert Duff
Cool. Thank you very, very much for spending some time with me. Been a pleasure. And I want to congratulate you again on the book doing really well so far.
- [56:49]
Dr. Matt Zakreski
I mean, you know, I respect you so much, not only as a mental health professional, but also as an author, because I have your book on the shelf behind me here. It's buried back there, but I'm like, you know, and it's just really like, it's so nice to connect in that way and like, you know, just really share this stuff and with someone who really gets it, which is very cool. So thank you for the opportunity for me.