Craig Bellamy: Why I Had to Hide Behind a Persona & How I Lead Wales With Honesty (E368)

Summary

The High Performance Podcast – Craig Bellamy: Why I Had to Hide Behind a Persona & How I Lead Wales With Honesty (E368)

Date: September 1, 2025
Hosts: Jake Humphrey, Damian Hughes
Guest: Craig Bellamy (Wales manager, former Premier League footballer)

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Episode Overview

This moving, candid episode explores Craig Bellamy’s journey from “troubled” Premier League star to emotionally open, forward-thinking manager of the Welsh national football team. Bellamy discusses his lifelong battle with anxiety, the persona he created to survive in elite football, and the personal growth that’s now shaping his unique approach to leadership. He reflects on friendship and loss (notably Gary Speed), the myths of sporting success, depression, and the power of consistency and honesty.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Persona Behind the Public Image

• Craig on Playing with Anxiety:

  • “I have huge anxiety as well, but you’ve got to put up like cape on, then this is who I’m going to be. Then put the mask on, get ready, get going. Fight.” (00:01)
  • Describes needing a “mask” to function in high-pressure environments, hiding his vulnerabilities behind aggression and outward confidence.

• Survival Tactics as a Young Player:

  • At 17, facing fatherhood and the threat of failure, Bellamy almost sabotaged his own football career to avoid owning difficult decisions. Instead, pressure drove his relentless work ethic.
  • “If I’m going to do this, I got to do this properly. If it doesn’t work, at least I can look him in the eyes and say, look, I wasn’t good enough.” (13:03)

2. The Shadow of Fear and Anxiety

• Fear was a constant motivator—from job security as a young dad to internal competition in elite football.

• On Early Fear:

  • “Fear was from a young age, from a young age when I started coming into full-time… I was a young father as well, at 17. Then fear comes in: If I don’t get a contract, who’s going to put food on his table?” (09:50)

• Anxiety was familial and manifest in social discomfort, only eased by playing football or, later, alcohol abuse:

  • “For me, the only conversations I could have was about football. That was the only way.” (18:00)
  • “In drink, it’s easy to socialize. Then you like, you know, so it’s… and that’s not a way to live either.” (19:18)

3. Creating and Living Behind a Persona

• At Newcastle, Bellamy’s aggressive, confrontational style was a conscious persona (“the cape”) needed to overcome inner doubts and outside criticism:

  • “...this cape’s coming on. Because if I really looked at it and I looked at the 50,000 stadium…I have huge anxiety as well.” (15:34)

• After matches, the mask dropped:

  • “As soon as the game finished, drained. Drained…watch myself back, no way. Couldn’t watch a game back knowing me in it. Impossible.” (20:36)

• He sees now that “insecurity is often the loudest” and that this persona masked deep insecurities, exacerbated by an environment lacking emotional support. (21:10)

4. Football’s Culture: Emotional Suppression and Pressure

• Historically, there was no culture of talking or seeking help, even though many struggled, especially with anxiety.

  • “We weren’t as educated as what we’re getting into now…Even when I finished, football allowed me to look like, how can I be a better person?” (22:31)

• Describes relentless internal battles—perfectionism, overthinking, sleeplessness, taking sleeping tablets before every game just to function:

  • “Even the night before, I'd have to take a sleeping tablet before a game…From age 20, 21, before every single game.” (27:21)

5. The Turning Point: Gary Speed and Seeking Help

• The suicide of close friend and Wales manager Gary Speed was a catalyst:

  • “When Speedo passed away…because it was going so well for him at Wales…what if it can happen to him, we’re all in trouble.” (29:32)

• Opens up about finally seeking therapy with encouragement at Liverpool, working with Steve Peters:

  • “It was just going through your fears…for me was not winning a trophy…He was like, you understand how crazy that sounds? Your career has been incredible.” (30:51)

• Realization: True validation isn’t in trophies, but in daily work, effort, and character:

  • “That’s my reward. This—turning up every single day to try and be better. That for me was like, that’s winning.” (32:57)

6. Growth, Self-Kindness, and New Leadership

• Letting go of past mistakes and being self-compassionate is crucial; being haunted by mistakes is not a sustainable way to live.

  • “There’s a period then you’ve got to let go. You’ve got to let go. It’s like, I can’t beat myself up over…there’s a period then you’ve got to start being kind to yourself as well.” (59:16)

• On present well-being:

  • “I think I’ve always been this person, but what's allowed me is to bring this person to the front. I’ve always been this. I’m always happiest being this person now.” (57:32)

• Coaching philosophy: Emphasizing love for the game, removing fear, building structure, and individualizing care for each player. He’s especially proud of creating a positive, team-led culture for Wales, empowered by lessons from Sir Bobby Robson and shaped by personal struggle.

  • “Team’s everything. It cannot be individual run. It’s impossible.” (55:40)
  • “I want every player to feel like I did [under Bobby Robson]...That's the way I want to coach.” (41:14)

7. Practical Philosophy and Legacy

• Bellamy practices openness with his team, creating psychological safety, open communication, and involving players in tactical decisions.

  • “I run a players committee—four or five of every camp go through tactics, what we expect…So it doesn’t just come from us, comes from you as well.” (67:10)

• On building culture:

  • “The mentality is not: we’re underdogs or have to settle. We have to excel our talent and try to be different. Be consistent with our messaging. That’s what excites me the most.” (61:40)

• On the importance of togetherness:

  • “If you start wandering because you’re not getting [the ball] and think you can play for you, the whole structure breaks…The team’s the most important.” (55:40)

8. Mental Health and Daily Practices

• Bellamy describes ongoing therapy, open conversations, family focus, and consistency as bedrock strategies for mental health:
  • “I use someone even now in Cardiff…I think it’s important for me sometimes even just to talk…as men, it’s so normal. We do not talk about our feelings.” (76:30)
  • On daily maintenance: “If I can’t lead myself, how can I lead a group, then how can I lead the country? It's impossible.” (77:29)

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Memorable Quotes

• On anxiety and persona:

  “I feel sometimes the most insecure is the loudest. And I think you've seen real insecurity…You might see as confidence. It's disguised.” – Craig Bellamy (21:10)

• On true 'winning':

  “Turning up every single day to try and be better. That for me was like, that’s winning.” – Craig Bellamy (32:57)

• On the myth of trophies:

  “You don’t need any trophies because that's your trophy. You've turned up every single day to be the best you can be and this is where it's got you.” – Craig Bellamy (33:24)

• On self-compassion:

  “You’ve got to let go…start being kind to yourself as well…grow like this, done. It's part of your life that you can move away now.” – Craig Bellamy (59:16)

• On leadership philosophy:

  “If I can’t lead myself, how can I lead a group, then how can I lead the country? It's impossible.” – Craig Bellamy (77:29)

• On mental health and progress:

  “If you keep being consistent, you keep work, something will change. It has to change…if you don't, don't expect the same results.” – Craig Bellamy (78:02)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Opening reflections on persona & anxiety: 00:01–08:00
• Early career pressures and fear: 09:50–14:00
• Football culture, coping strategies, and persona at Newcastle: 14:21–24:00
• Therapy and Gary Speed’s impact: 29:32–33:24
• Coaching philosophy and learning from mentors: 39:28–42:00
• Team culture, tactical openness, handling mistakes: 55:29–67:10
• Addressing mental health and transitions out of darkness: 70:25–78:02
• Quick-fire, non-negotiables & closing wisdom: 79:46–82:00

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Takeaways for Listeners

• Bellamy’s journey demonstrates that public personas often mask deep anxiety; honesty about vulnerability can unlock personal and professional growth.
• True fulfillment comes not from trophies or accolades, but from daily effort, self-acceptance, and nurturing others.
• Leadership built on honesty, psychological safety, and human connection can create lasting culture change—in sports and beyond.
• Progress with mental health is ongoing, requiring consistency, openness, and personal tools.
• The person you were does not define the person you are—or the person you can become.

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Notable Closing Moment

On the happiest moment he could revisit:

“This right now, honest truth, this right now, it’s the most. It’s the best. It’s the best. And I’m right in it. Right in it.” – Craig Bellamy (80:59)

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Summary prepared for listeners seeking personal growth, insights into football leadership, and inspiration from one of the sport’s most honest voices.

Transcript

[Craig Bellamy]

I have huge anxiety as well, but you've got to put up like cape on, then this is who I'm going to be. Then put the mask on, get ready, get going. Fight. When Speedo passed away in a strange moment because it was going so well for him at Wales, really admired him. He was like, what if it can happen to him? We're all in trouble. Like I always say, I am here for the tiniest period, loving every second of being. So when my time does come, I do not know when I go, woof. I was tough.

[Podcast Host]

That is the voice of Craig Bellamy, former Premier League star and current manager of the Wales national team. And you'll know Craig from his time at clubs like Newcastle, Liverpool, Man City or West Ham Norwich, of course my favourite. But behind the headlines and the reputation that Craig had was a far deeper story, one of fear, anxiety and this constant battle to stay in control. And, oh, my life, what a searingly honest conversation this is. Craig is about to open up about his real journey from the beginning. I've read and seen so much about Craig, but this stuff I've never heard him talk about or seen him discuss. Craig's about to share why fear and insecurity drove him to the top, but also robbed him of his joy. He shares the truth about his mental health, his drinking and why he created a Persona just to survive in the.

[Interviewer]

World of elite football.

[Podcast Host]

He tells us what he learned from his dear friend Gary Speed, and the moment that he knew he had to seek help. And I love it when he talks about the fact that he's found freedom in coaching, in love and finally in being himself. Craig also reveals what he believes it means to lead Wales with the spirit of Gary's Speed behind him and the powerful moment when he passed a mural of Gary and he knew, yeah, this is a job for me. You know, this is one of the most raw and emotionally open conversations we've ever had on this show. It's full of lessons on identity, growth and letting go. Please don't just listen to this. If you're a football fan, if you're not into football, football, but you want personal growth, you want to understand the human beings better, you want to know what is really going on. When people are at the very, very top of their game and they're in the public eye, then this is a conversation for you. I found it incredibly moving and can I just say, Craig, if you're listening to this intro, I'm so pleased that by the end of our chat, it really felt like you were In a great place, and I hope it's a place that you stay for a long time.

[Craig Bellamy]

Right.

[Podcast Host]

Please remember to hit follow on Apple or Spotify so you never miss an episode. So we can bring you more incredible stories like this as we bring you former footballer and Wales manager Craig Bellamy. To High performance.

[Interviewer]

Craig, welcome to High performance.

[Craig Bellamy]

Thank you.

[Interviewer]

We're very much looking forward to celebrating your career and the things that you've done and where you are now. I wonder if we went to one of your players at Wales and asked them, tell us about Craig Bellamy as a football manager, what would you like them to say?

[Craig Bellamy]

I would like them to say, first and foremost, that they enjoy it. To me, that's the most important. And then playing wise, calm, I think you have to be. I don't see the needs and any type of, like, ranting or raving and just really habits. It's always habits. Work, early reactions, recovery runs. And I believe you get to enjoy it then even joy more enjoy the other side of the game. So my biggest bit was, you know what? I love playing for him. That would be the best compliment I could ever get.

[Interviewer]

Are you enjoying it?

[Craig Bellamy]

Yeah, yeah, I've loved it. I've loved it. I wasn't sure. I like coaching. I like being out every day, you know, even the little bits in the morning, setting up the pitches and, like, that was peace and I really enjoyed that. Like, I would make it even more complicated by having those, like, lines where you have to put the pegs in where you don't need to. A disc can do it. But I had to be perfect and, like, one station and the next station. Next station. I love doing that in the mornings. I felt this was. It wasn't something I was looking for because I'm really. I like being happy and I like being content. And this is what's working for me at this present moment. I'm like, don't need to move. Don't need to look for the next. I don't know. I just felt there was something coming, like, just towards the end of that Premier League season with Burnley. I've sort of seen the championship, I've seen the Premier League, and little questions like, would I survive in this? Would I be able to do this? Yeah. And then the only way is you're gonna have to find out then.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

I'm interested by that term. It was peace. From what?

[Craig Bellamy]

Always from me, always. Because I'm like a serial overthinker. If something is going really well in my life that makes me uncomfortable, I need chaos. So I felt. So it's like got to be something else. But then being content and being present, I started to really understand that what present meant and allows me to slow down, allows me to enjoy. And that's all I want to do is find that enjoyment. And it could be from the small things, you know, it doesn't have to be defining moments or your work. And you know, it could be just tiny, like I just had a coffee then five minutes ago. Nice. Yeah, that was perfect at that time, you know, so those little moments cherish, but also be present around people as well. I tend to like, if my world wasn't in the right place where I needed to, I could literally not really speak. You get two words out of me and it wasn't because of you, it was nothing to do with you. But I just. How I deal with my mind racing, so allowing breathing, stay calm and just. I don't know, the older you get, the better you, you know, the better you learn about yourself. And I felt, you know, I've come into an age of being through all these experiences and they've helped me, they've helped me. So I'm probably getting the best version of me right now. So this time, probably doing this interview is a very good time for you guys.

[Interviewer]

Brilliant. Because you said you needed chaos. What do you mean by that?

[Craig Bellamy]

Because I always feel if this is going too well, where's my next one that I have to push again? Don't settle for this. So all these habits. Football can teach you a lot of really good habits, but it can teach you a lot of bad ones as well. If I lost the game, it was don't speak to anyone two, three days, like sleepless nights over stuff. And even if I scored and scored two, I should have scored three. What, I missed that for four. And that would eat me up more than what you've just done. So you're always like searching for more when actually you need to just enjoy what's happening now. You know, even defeats actually enjoy them because you're only going to improve. It's only going to make you better. And that's where you know that fear runs out. You understand what I mean? It was like, because we're run off fear and we're taught fear, we're taught that. And I really don't like it. It's not something I want hanging over me, nor like in coaching. I never want a player to ever feel any of that. It's not fear. It's a game of football. It's a game of football in life. There's a lot more going on. There's a lot harder. This is enjoyment, and we get to bring enjoyment to people. And for me, that's like, how can you not enjoy this? And part of my career as well was I probably didn't enjoy it enough, and I don't want players to go through that. You know, I love the game. This is like the greatest game in the world, and I'm so proud to say that. And I was a part of it and I'm still a part of it now. But it's there to be enjoyed. It's not there to be. Oh, what happens if this happens? What happens if that happens? Because we're always fighting. You could lose your place or someone could get bought and you know, so you're always in competition mode. But embrace it. Enjoy that side.

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[Craig Bellamy]

So.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

When was fear first present then for.

[Craig Bellamy]

You, fear was from a young age, from a young age when she started coming into full time like apprentices. That's what we were at that time. And then even like I was, I was a young father as well, at 17. Then fear comes in, like, if I don't get a contract, who's going to put food on his table? Where's he gonna live? How am I gonna live? How am I gonna provide? So those moments then it become real, it become real. It wasn't just me. I had someone else to look after. And then I just. That like put me in overdrive. But also it gave me a lot of, a lot of motivation. I wouldn't recommend it for most 17 year olds. It was like a big driving force. But also when I look back now, that taught me a lot of, a lot of negativity as well.

[Interviewer]

So let's go back then to 17 year old Craig Bellamy playing at arguably the greatest football club in the world, Norwich City. How would you describe your kind of, not just your mentality but how that mentality informed and impacted your daily behaviors around that time?

[Craig Bellamy]

No, mine at that time. I spent my first year as a 16 year old playing in and out. I wasn't as quite developed as some players, so I was in and out and homesick a lot. And I have to be honest, I wanted out. This was like, I want to do what my friends are doing back home. This is actually. I didn't realize how hard football was, how much you got to dedicate yourself to the game. You know, sleeping at the right time, waking up, training, eating the right spoons. It was just so much like that comes into not just the playing side. You know, there's so much rounded that makes that player and I wasn't sure if I had the appetite for it, you know, like, you know, there was times I wanted to tap out, times I wanted out, but I didn't want to make the decision. So what's easy then? Create a problem, get involved in an incident, then they chuck you out. Like what sort of stuff? Got involved in a fight as a kid, you know, at an orange. Yeah, yeah. So I got a severe first warning, second time round warning didn't come. So when I went on for long weekends, didn't come back. So they waited. They taught me patience as well. They taught me they knew what I was trying to do, but they weren't going to let me out of that. So they wanted it. If it's going to be your decision, it's got to be your decision. We Ain't making this for you. So by then I was like, well, I can't quit because I don't want that living with me. I'd be much easier. If you make the decision for me, then I can blame you for the rest of my life. Probably I won't do because after about 10, 15 years, I realized it was all me. But I don't want to be that person. Sat around in a local area and local pubs like everyone else was blaming everyone else. So that was like, that didn't sit with me either. I don't want to be. Oh, I would have made it, but it was this or it was that. That coach and I didn't want to be that person. Couldn't be that person. So by sticking it out and then back next season in July, it was towards the end of the end of July then I knew I was going to become a father. And I was literally left with a decision of, if I'm going to do this, I got to do this properly. If it doesn't work, at least I can look him in the eyes and say, look, I wasn't good enough. But I'd done everything I could to be the best I could be. If it does work, then we can do okay, maybe. So that made the decision for me and that was. I didn't look back, like, the amount of water I was drinking, sleeping well. And then my performances just started to, you know, I went from a talented player to literally like the player in the team, you know. I got offered a pro contract within a couple of months after that, like, ended up captaining the team that won a league in southeast counties, which is like, tough. That league was like Lampards and all that West Ham re overs and everyone. Jody Morris at Chelsea, like here and Dye at Ipswich, like, this was a tough, tough league and we won it by a. By a mile. We were top. And I was a real. I was. I was the player for that and that really. Then I made my debut within that season as well. But then that just gave me the drive. Generally, you know, when you're doing everything right, it's no coincidence that performances start creeping up. So that was my mind. Like, well, this has to be this then.

[Interviewer]

So you were at Norwich.

[Craig Bellamy]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

The mentality was challenging for a while, but you sorted things out and then you left to go to Coventry and eventually you ended up at Newcastle.

[Craig Bellamy]

Right? Yeah.

[Interviewer]

I think we should talk about Newcastle because when we look at you now as this manager that talks about calm and contentment and joy in your football People will remember a very different player.

[Craig Bellamy]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Newcastle.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

What are your memories of that time?

[Craig Bellamy]

I loved it. Even like commentary one situation I meant like don't forget I got relegated the season before that. I had very little impact. It was only a year after my cruise shirts. I didn't not only have an impact playing wise at times I did. But it wasn't consistent or anywhere near enough for what commentary needed. But I also felt like a shell of myself. I wasn't arguing with people. I wasn't. And then when I went to Newcastle was like I understood the. The stadium. I understood like this is like now or never. But I'm gonna be me. You know, like this cape's coming on. Because if I really looked at it and I looked at the 50 or thousand empty stadium because I went to the stadium was like I can't play this. I have huge anxiety as well. Like being around people. And it's a big, big problem for me. It always has been from a young age which I didn't quite understand until you get a little bit older. But you've got to put up like cape on. Then it's like, well this is who I'm going to be. Then put the mask on. Get ready, get going. Fight. No one believes in me. I'll show you all. You know. It was that type. Because I remember the radio stations even up there because it was not easy to listen to. But I wanted to listen to it because I remember like someone went to turn it down. A guy who was driving me. I said, no, turn it up. It was like why are we signing? Craig Bellamy just got relegated to nothing. Why are we paying this many for him? This is where Newcastle, Newcastle are going to be fighting relegation again next year. And I was like, okay, okay. Now we're going to have to see. Now we're going to have to see. And it just. That was it. And even when I'd done well at the start, I was like, oh, you lot weren't keen on me by the way, you know. Oh, now you are. Now you are. Now I'm suddenly a decent player for you. So that just drove me. It was like then because I was doing well, being that it was like I have to be this person.

[Interviewer]

And what is this person?

[Craig Bellamy]

Just like aggressive completely. Like when I went onto the pitch like I was the best player. Trust me, I'm the best player. Everyone's here to watch me. If they ain't, they're going to be talking about me after the game. Now off the pitch I'm like, that completely isn't true. It's like, yeah. Do you know when you just. Reality hits, oh, what am I going to do here? Like, they're so good. He's so good and incredible. But by the time I got on that pitch, it was like, no, I'm the best one.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

So you said that you were suffering from anxiety. So how would that manifest itself off the field?

[Craig Bellamy]

No, it was even as a kid. Even as a kid, yeah.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

And where does that come from, do you think?

[Craig Bellamy]

It's family? Yeah, it's family, yeah. So it can get passed down as well. It was part of. People in my family suffer from it as well, quite badly as well. Even to this day. I didn't quite understand because football releases you. Do you understand when you're playing with your friends out in the field, a ball can keep 40, 50 kids happy. And we were always playing. Best thing about football, especially playing out in the field or street. There was no age gap. So whenever, like. And you come and if you're quite good, you stay in, you know, and so that released me. Do you understand where being in confined spaces, being around, like in a classroom, say, for instance, around a load of people wasn't great for me, it wasn't like, I just, you know, like, if there was one kid looking to get out the door, it was me.

[Interviewer]

You know, what was happening in your. In your head then at that moment?

[Interviewer/Co-host]

I don't.

[Craig Bellamy]

It's difficult to tell because I didn't quite know at the time. You don't. You just feel sometimes a little bit socially awkward. But for me, the only conversations I could have was about football. That was the only way. So if you were teaching me a subject, I've learned from that even to this day now. It was like teachers were quite good at, well, if you don't want to learn, stay at the back of the class. Don't interrupt the ones who do want to learn. Sorry. So I be at the back. No problem. That's, like, great for me, but actually it's not quite correct. Like a teacher would be, well, why don't you want to learn? There must be something I can trigger you to get you to learn. Now, if football's well, I'll teach you in this type of way. And I feel like that's would have worked hugely for me. Now, I'm not blaming all teachers. Obviously myself has a responsibility for that. But when you learn, you're like, well, for me was like, I try and bring everything back to football. Now, if we're talking about history you know, for instance, I know a little bit about Austria because I know their main player, so from the 40s, who literally died in Second World War. So I'm like. That brings me back to that history, what happened there, you know, So I try and bring everything back. Football, really, because it just stimulates me and gets me able to learn. So. Yeah, but when you don't. And I. I get uncomfortable with certain situations. And I was just. It was just quite normal for me, really. And I always felt that I didn't like going out. Not just games. The only time you go out really, is when you socialized. Yeah. But in drink, it's easy to socialize. Then you like, you know, so it's. And that's not a way to live either.

[Interviewer]

And the. The anxiety element, I guess you're saying like a parent of yours had anxiety as well.

[Craig Bellamy]

Yeah, yeah. Uncles.

[Interviewer]

Did you ever talk about that as a family?

[Craig Bellamy]

No, I didn't know it. It wasn't like anything brought in. Now we know a lot more. Yeah. But at that time, and don't forget, even with football coaching as well, there'd be nerves. So you were careful about talking about nerves, careful about talking about anxiety leading into a game. And I wasn't because I was fearful of a game. Wasn't that. It was just how I was. It was just. How did I bring this up now? In order to do that, I can't go with those overriding thoughts. So by the time that hour came before the game, like, this person has to come up. I have to let go of all this and this person has to come up and then boom.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

So it sounds like you'd almost created a Persona character completely. So how would you describe that? I know you said about that character that turned up at Newcastle was aggressive or arguing or got that sense of confidence, but how would you feel when you took on that role?

[Craig Bellamy]

At that time, it was working so great. As soon as the game finished, drained. Drained. Just like watch myself back. No way. Couldn't watch a game back knowing me in it. Impossible. It's like, who is that? And actually cringing, you know, even like things like arguing with refs and I dislike. Now I understand emotion. Don't forget my father was a ref. So maybe that was probably why I was having a go, because I was having to go with him, you know. Not at all. No. He's a. He was a brilliant dad.

[Interviewer]

But.

[Craig Bellamy]

No, it was. Yeah, it was just that that feeling of like. I don't know. I feel sometimes the most insecure is the Loudest. And I think you've seen real insecurity. You might see as confidence. You might see, it's like, no, it isn't, it's disguised. But actually you see that with players. Even I see it now, but it's. How do you channel it? I need you with more energy because our intensity is like, has to be up now. Arguing, getting involved, throwing arms, all this, you're wasting energy. That's all you're doing. It's gonna not allow you to perform better. You need as much energy as you can to be on the ball and depress at a certain time, set triggers. So we need all our energy. Let it go, let it go. As soon as you make a bad pass, let it go. What about the next one? Give it again, give it away again. What about the next one? You know, it's not a problem, but we need that energy now. Imagine the amount of energy and I was a real high intense player. My sprint distance was probably something that could live in today's game, even though that's cranked up again. But the energy I used by getting involved, emotionally involved was draining, was draining. I think I would have been a better player.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

But I find it really telling that you said that insecurity is often the loudest. Was there anyone that recognized that to be able to help you channel it?

[Craig Bellamy]

No, no, I don't, I don't. We weren't as educated as is what we're getting into now. Over the last five odd years, you would have known even on your podcast now the people you're speaking to, you're seeing a different side now. Now a lot of people who don't want to know will disregard everything. Oh, it's all this. It's not. There's always an element is how can we improve and everything. If you even look at life and you look at these interviews now, you'll be like, how can we get the best one next? How can we improve again? But everything, even like myself, it wasn't when I finished football allowed me to look like, how can I be a better person? How can I be a better dad? How can I be a better partner? You know, it was always like, my self awareness is a big strength of mine. I don't always get it right. I don't want to be perfect, nor do I try to pretend to be, but how can I improve? You know, everything that happened in the past is only a lesson right now. Everything I concentrate about is being present and the future is just only motivation. It's only motivation. And I Just try and stay in those moments, mate.

[Interviewer]

That is so powerful. I sort of have this image, you know, when you spoke at the beginning about you, like, putting the cones out because it was a moment of peace. I sort of hear you talking and I think your head at that time when you were, you know, Norwich, Coventry, Newcastle and the subsequent clubs, it sounds to me like an exhausting place to be in your head.

[Craig Bellamy]

Oh, honestly, even when I finished, I was like, I could breathe. I could breathe okay. It took me about five, six weeks to stop limping out of the bed. It's normal. Your body's gonna take impact. I had like six knee ops, but it was like, allow me to just go, like, let go. And then you always reflect, you always do. It's normal. What was your career? What did you enjoy the most? And. And I gotta be honest, I was like, so grateful for my career. I got to play, like the best game in the world. And playing stadiums I could only ever dream of, have moments you could only ever dream of. I didn't win trophy. People like, like to brainwash you into the. The feeling of, well, you've got to win stuff. And it proves, you keep hearing it, only very few win. Very few win. Trust me. It's like, but for me to get where I got to with the body I have and everything I won, right? I might not have Premier League trophies, but I'm telling you, I won. You know, that's like, that's the trophy. Nothing can beat that trophy for me. So I look back and I'm like, beyond grateful. Anything else would be just greed too much. What I had was like, beyond grateful for. And even when you peel it back again, I'm like, I wish I enjoyed it more. Do you know the moment you get like a little bit nervous before something or, you know, anxiety kicked in, was like, what am I being like? Why am I beating myself up over this? I've always wanted to do this. How can I not enjoy it? I, like, I lost. Is it the end of the world, really? Two days time, I can change it, you know, Very rare in life you're able to do that. Sometimes you have to, you know, Olympic athletes and all that. Four years to worry about it next time round, you know, and it was like, no, let it go, let it go. It doesn't mean you don't care. Of course you do. But there's ways of being able to, you know, you learn from it. That's a moment that. How do I get. I know that scenario. I know this. And you have A better chance. Then if you relax and you find computer zone, then when you play, the best moments you have, like Barraford, you couldn't put a foot wrong because your mind was completely not worried about this. If I give this away or that happens or this happens and you're thinking all the negative thoughts, it just drains you. Like, I wish I found computer zone and learned how to find.

[Interviewer]

What do you mean computer zone? Just almost emotionally dead.

[Craig Bellamy]

Just in the game. Yeah, living in the moment, you know, playing the game is the game.

[Interviewer]

Cause you said a moment ago and you almost threw it away, you said I'd have been so much better easily.

[Craig Bellamy]

Because you're just, you're tense and when you're tense and you've woken yourself up, you're draining energy. And in our game we need energy, you know, to be able to play with freedom, to be able to like control the ball.

[Interviewer]

If you're.

[Craig Bellamy]

If that ball comes into our pasture or born a pastor had and you're in, it's in your head straight away, I'm going to miscontrol this. Guarantee you're going to miscontrol it. But if you're already thinking, watch this now watch this for a touch bump hits because your mind's already there. So finding those moments all the time. If I'm going to hit a diagonal or whatever, like watch this for a ball now, boom. It hits it. If I'm thinking, oh, I could shank this now, guarantee you've got a great chance.

[Interviewer]

How often would you be. Would your brain be going, you're going to shank this, you're going to miscontrol this?

[Craig Bellamy]

No, you're always on a personal battle. So if I'm one on one with a goalkeeper, I'm going to miss the. Well, I missed.

[Interviewer]

And how often, how often was your brain telling you the negative rather than the positive?

[Craig Bellamy]

It would try. It was like a complete fight.

[Interviewer]

All game.

[Craig Bellamy]

It was a battle. Yeah. But even the night before, I'd have to take a sleeping tablet before a game. It was a fight like, otherwise I won't be sleeping. Impossible. You can't tell me what I'm about to do tomorrow, what's going to happen? Because my mind was just like I needed, like the only way to sleep was to take a sleeping tablet before. From the age of about 20, 21, before every single game took a sweeten tablet. I didn't live off them, but before every game because otherwise I wouldn't sleep. Impossible.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Did you ever seek help at this stage?

[Craig Bellamy]

No. Didn't know, it was. I really didn't know it was there.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Craig Bellamy]

You know, and even one or two people were. Were speaking to psychologists and, you know, that started like. And who does that? Like, what's it going to do? Make you play better, you know, that's the mindset.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Yep.

[Craig Bellamy]

You know, it wasn't. And, yeah. And it was only till later on then. It was only till certain instances happened and make you reflect, make you look at yourself. It's like, well, where am I going? You know, what's my world going to be like? Because this is going to end. This game's gonna end for me wherever we like it on. I ain't playing anymore after the sit. And I've, like, got, well, a big chunk of my life to live. How do I want to live that? So I need to start on the real, like, serious, like, look at myself and what habits, you know, because otherwise there's only one way you can turn. I say this two ways. I've gone to pub every day and drink while I don't be here. So really, if you think about it, I want to be here. So I need to have a really, really good look.

[Interviewer]

It's really what your brain was thinking.

[Craig Bellamy]

Yeah. Yeah, I know. I tell you what it was mostly how crazy it was. It was like, something bad's gonna happen to me because it's been so good. I'm gonna have to pay for it somewhere. You know, it's got to now, whether it's an illness, whether it's something like that. That's what my mind was. You know, my life's been too good. You know, I've got to experience such a high. I got to be able to pay for this somewhere down the line. Yeah. It wasn't. Wasn't an easy way. It wasn't an easy way.

[Interviewer]

Being young, you said some things happened that meant you then did seek therapy. Are you happy to tell us what those things were?

[Craig Bellamy]

Yeah. No. Yeah. It was when Speedo passed away. Gary Speed, Yeah, when Gary passed away, it was a moment I couldn't understand. I didn't see it coming. Like, we don't. Then you look back and it's like, it's not him. There's no way. But I know how clever he was. Incredible leader, incredible person. Would give you right advice, but kick with the backside when you needed it as well, and which you always respected because you knew we'd come from a good place. With him when that happened, in a strange moment, because it was going so well for him at Wales. Loved it. Loved what he was doing with us but also that person. I was with him for four odd years and respected and really admired, really admired him. It was like what if it can happen to him we're all in trouble. And that's how I felt. It was like I need to have a real. And I was lucky. We have a doctor at Liverpool called Zaf. I think it's an Arsenal man. Just had a quiet word me just said look I'd like you to go and see someone. And I was like unsure you know because I, it's like a little bit new to me. So we explained the person like Steve Peters and yeah I got to spend time with him and it was a complete different worlds.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

And what was it that meeting with Steve did for you?

[Craig Bellamy]

It was just going through a lot of your fears and you know like I was so. It was like what would, what scares you the most about retiring and for me was not winning a trophy that I feel my career would be a complete failure if I don't win that trophy. And he was like okay, you understand how crazy that sounds because like your career has been incredible. You know it's like you don't need a trophy for that now. If you get one, brilliant. But you don't need. Because I looked at it like I was always like I lost the semi final year semi. But when I look back I lost to the better team. I didn't lose to like Wickham or any you know, I lost to the better team every time. Where's the shame in that? You can't do nothing more than your best if someone outperforms you. Brilliant. You have to accept it. It's not like. But if you didn't perform a team you should have beat and because you didn't prepare yourself then you can understand that haunting you. But when you lost out to actually the better team and actually when I really looked through it it was like yeah, three months after seeing him I won a trophy for the first time. And do you know when I picked that trophy up? Is this what I've been worried about? I got a game in three days time. This is it. This is supposed to give me. Then I realized what are you doing? Like what are you like where's your mind got you to chase this? And now suddenly you think this is going to fulfill everything and you can retire happy now? And it's like no, actually, actually felt better before. I've been chasing this. It didn't give me any, you know like accomplishment like every day getting into training first Leaving last, working, being the best you can be. That's winning. That was for me was like, that's my reward. You know, this is what turning up every single day to try and be better. That for me was like, that's winning. You know, that's the buzz. That's the buzz for me.

[Interviewer]

And I think it's so important you say that because there will be so many players and you will manage some of them at Wales, who are handcuffed by this need to win a trophy, thinking it validates their entire career and brings them a happiness.

[Craig Bellamy]

But you know, it's a myth. But, you know, a complete myth. But, you know, if you're playing in League two and you're doing everything you can to be there now, if you didn't, you would be in conference or Conference south, conference north, but your best is there in League two. You've won.

[Podcast Host]

That's your Everest.

[Craig Bellamy]

You've won. You don't need to like the others get Premier League and, you know that's maybe out your reach, but it doesn't mean you're not the best you can be, or you shouldn't be anywhere near satisfied or people should look down on you thinking, well, that's not like, oh, yeah, but he only played that. That's their problem. Yeah, let them deal with that because they'd have a big problem with everything and that's not yours. Can you look at yourself in the middle and say that? But you know what was the best I could get to? You don't need any trophies because that's your trophy. That's what you've done. You've turned up every single day to be the best you can be and this is where it's got you. Otherwise you would have been lower down and maybe even part time. It's like you deserve everything. That's the enjoyment, that's the buzz.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

And what did that bring you when you recognised that you had already won? What did that do for your performance?

[Craig Bellamy]

I ended up at 32, running more. Crazy. Yeah, 32. Highest intensity. I run, I run my best, like sprint, distance, repeated sprints. I got to like. I think I put pros on record at the time, about 124 in one game. So by letting go, allow me to be even freer. Allowed me, like, to like. Because all it does is just the more tense you get, the more like you burn in energy. Save that energy because I'm going to need it for elsewhere. And it actually allowed me to perform better.

[Interviewer]

Did it also give you freedom from the things that had happened in the past. Did it help to kind of make sense of, like, the famous fallout you had with Graham Sooners at Newcastle, for example?

[Craig Bellamy]

Yeah, I know. I got to be honest, people talk about regrets. I don't have any. And they said, I can't buy it. I don't, because I do. But I put myself in that situation. Again, no.

[Interviewer]

For those that don't understand, would you share the story of what happened there in the situation?

[Craig Bellamy]

I don't think, honestly, it's like for me, and I don't mean that as in, like, I'm happy to talk like, anything. It's not a problem to me. But I only ever learned from it. And that's the honest truth. I don't like, what could I have done differently? Yeah, I could have done something different there.

[Interviewer]

So you sort of. You spoke out against Graham Souness, right?

[Craig Bellamy]

No, not really. It was more. Look, it was a difficult role for him to come into, to follow Sir Bobby Robson. I feel like results weren't going away and when they weren't going away, I felt like he wanted to start a fire. Then it was, someone's got to pay for this. It can't be on him. So, yeah, but I can't win because I got this problem then I got that problem, but I only felt it was from his creation. Now, other players didn't fall for it. I did. So I bit back. And then that was perfect ammo. Now, should I be back? No. Manager is always right. And I don't. Like, I would have said that 10, 15 years ago, but I. My feeling towards where the club was and where it was going wasn't. Like under Bobby Robson, we were Champions League and people thought it, like, sort of got out of hand. I thought that was a myth. There was only one person wanted to change and I was Shepherd, Freddy Shepherd. And he's passed away now, so I hate talking about. And I don't feel it's fair. So that's the last time I mentioned his name. I'm surprised I actually done it then, but I felt there was the change. But he needed some of the blame for it. Right, it gotta be this group. It's gotta be that group. And I didn't feel that was the case. I felt Sir Bobby didn't deserve what happened at the time. And it was hard to take when I watched him leave the building. It was tough. Was tough. Cause I could see tears in his eye, you know, this was a painful one for him. It was painful for all of us. And then the man management of Graham was completely opposite to what Sir Bobby Robson was. Some people would have felt at that time, yeah, they need that, they need that. But I feel results in time proved the golf. Yeah, prove the golf, not the players.

[Interviewer]

But you, after you'd done a bit of work with Steve and you were able to reflect on your career, you did you have regrets about that time? Because it's. I almost like to think that Steve helped you realize that you were a guy, you were a different person back then.

[Craig Bellamy]

No, I think we're all different people in different situations. You don't know what you don't know. So your reaction, you put me into a corner, then my reaction was always to come out like, I come out swinging. That's it. Like, if I'm in a corner, then I'm fighting. I sort of. That was my mentality as a young kid. Look, if I had a football and I took that football out where I believed, be prepared to fight, because that ball might not come back otherwise, you understand? It's like people are going to take it off you. So it's like you have to gain a pack with four or five friends. Like, look, someone next to my ball, then we got to be ready to go. And it was like, okay, you know, and if someone backed out of that, there was a problem there, so we knew it was. And if it wasn't my ball, it was someone else's. So every time we went out to play football, you knew there was going to be a fight. And if it wasn't in the game because someone had kicked someone or they just kicked off there, or someone was losing, you knew what was going to happen. So every day of playing where you think it's enjoyment, which it completely was, but you had that side to you as well. It's like, I'm ready, like I have to be, otherwise I ain't gonna be able to play you. You know, these kids are not gonna allow you to play with them. So it's like, be ready. So that mentality was always there, but when it came to that situation, it was like, sometimes like, you just need to breathe, take a step back, see the bigger picture, see what's really happening. And. Yeah, and I just probably wasn't educated or self aware enough to be able to. To slow down.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, but also all of your career had been built on the fact that you reacted in a sort of fiery way and it was successful for you. It worked for you.

[Craig Bellamy]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

[Interviewer]

That was learned behavior.

[Craig Bellamy]

It was learned behavior. Not good. But I'm Telling you if I would have learned or if I would have gained the tools I had, if I have now and if I had been given those tools earlier, it would allow me to be a better player. Like people would always convince you into the fact. Yeah, but he needs that. He keeps. That's what makes him play so well. This is what. And it's so not true but there's.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

A lovely chapter in Paul Ferris new book who was a physio at Newcastle when you were there. And he describes the chapter as one player, two managers, two different outcomes. And he describes you with that incident with Tsunes on one hand. And then he talks about Bobby Robson expressing his frustrations about you. And you walk in the room and then he puts his arm around the shoulder and tells her how important you are. And he says the best football he ever saw was through that second method. Which coach do you think did get the best out of you and how.

[Craig Bellamy]

And why like Sir Bobby Robson definitely gave me the confidence to be amongst the elites, to be able to live in that.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

How do you do that?

[Craig Bellamy]

Just like the belief I obviously I was aware of somebody, Robson's career and the players he's managed and if he's telling me I'm this good and the players he's managed, then I must be really good. You know, it just felt like. And even when he went on to a game, I felt like I'm 6 foot 2, 6 foot 3, you know, like he would tell you like a little bit like, I can't believe this. Center backs. I can't believe they're playing him against you today. You're too much for him. You're too much from. Go make sure you go and show him that today, you know, so it just had that. And unfortunately sometimes I tell the player, you shouldn't be playing against me today. You know, it was like he'd done so well for me that way but then the opposite way where someone's actually saying, well you're not that good a player because that's what it was. You know, if we're talking about football it's like, well, good players don't need coaching. And I was like, clearly I'm not a good player then.

[Commentator/Co-host]

Right?

[Craig Bellamy]

So my mind then, you know, obviously I appreciate I wasn't as good as you, but when someone says that to you made you feel like I didn't feel as valuable.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

That was one of soon as his methods.

[Craig Bellamy]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Good players don't need coaching.

[Craig Bellamy]

Good players don't need coaching. No one had to tell me how to play. I wasn't him. I wasn't as good as him. I needed coaching. I didn't have that ability. And I just. The way that made me feel compared to what made me feel that way. I know which way I want to coach. I want every player to feel like I did there.

[Interviewer]

But under Bobby, completely under Bobby. But isn't it interesting as well, though, that you could remove all of the challenging times in your life, right? And there's a strong argument that if you take all those away, you're not the manager that you are today. Because to see the other side of the coin is so valuable for you now because you know how it made you feel when you felt belittled, misunderstood, criticized, discarded. So those are actually valuable moments almost.

[Craig Bellamy]

That's why I said it like from the past. There's only lessons you only learn. You only learn good and bad, you know, only improves you. You have to be willing to be able to put yourself in opposition to. To be self aware of. What did you like, what didn't you like? What worked for you, what didn't work for you. And also, like everything I even look to do now, even coaching, there has to be a why? Every training session, there's a reason behind it. This is why we're doing this, because we've looked at the opposition, even from the first moment we're together, first meeting, it's all about the next, like the, the next team. Because I need to know why now, if you were like, I go back to school, if you're telling me do this, do that, it ain't working for me, I won't do that. I literally will not do it, you know, but if you give me a reason why and you allow me to, then I'm there. But if you don't, and you just ordered me, I won't do it, I won't do it. Or like, like my mum would always just say to me, like, do not just tell him to do it because he won't do it. And I went, I was like. As a child, you know, I remember once she left the stove on in the kitchen. She. She was a good, she was a good mum, you know, it just doesn't like. She is a good mom. She is now. She left the stove on in the kitchen, boiling hot. Straight away, she walks out, she goes, whatever you do, do not touch that stove. I go in the kitchen. I'm stood there for about five minutes looking at her. What's it going to do then? Both hand on burns. She's just outside Laughing because she knew I was going to do it. You know, I was always that type of kids, you know. But when you explain it, when you tell it like can give me written that I'm there, like I'm. I get it, I get it. And so I look at every player like I was coaching me. How do I get this? How do I like? Because I was more complicated than most. So I treat everyone as if, well if I was coaching a young me, this is what, this is what you need and this is why you need this. I don't believe in any player being injury prone. I feel they're mismanaged. So anyone says an injury prone player is not true. The training schedule is not right. I believe they're being mismanaged. So be very careful of that. But also I don't believe any player is a problem. I feel that's mismanagement. Again, we don't get it right now. If you've got a play and you've brought a player in and he has had big problems before and this, this and this, don't feel you're the hero who can save the day, let it go. I would like I completely believe in that. But if I felt I couldn't connect with a player, I have to do more, I have to do more. And even international stage, like there's one player I didn't quite connect with, just didn't have that time in that period. So I travel to London, go and have a meal with him and you know, just spend time with him and speak to him. Not even about football. Just got brothers, sisters, you know, your partner. This, this just get to know the person because the more you get to know that person allows you to be able to coach them. If you don't know the person, don't think you can coach. It's not going to, it's only going to allow you so much so know the person, know what triggers like I, I like can you give us an.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Example of somebody where you've gone for a meal with them, found out something that you've been able to use. Maybe not name names but no, no.

[Craig Bellamy]

But you like we used to, like I used to do, I used to profile the players like again with psychologists as well. So we're profile them and it's not always like just sign a sheet of paper tickets. You know we try and do it in person as well so you're able to speak to them and get. And then you'll find out, you know it taught me a lot which some players just need More. So whatever information you give is not enough, they need more. But then those players are like incredible. So your tactical stuff, you can start moving them around because they need it, they get it. Now some players need like very limited. So how you build your structure is a little bit different with them. Let them be them. Don't try and bring them too much into. Like, I gotta ask him to play in the pocket. Then I ask him play six or double six and eight at times, you know, where he can mix with. It's not for him, he just likes being there. Let him be him then. But he's good at that. Let you be you. It's not for me to change you. Now the ones who need more, give them, they run the team, they start moving, they start seeing things, but they need that. So build that. But if I was. Imagine I was trying to do that to a player that, for instance, doesn't quite trigger. That way he only needs one or two bits because that's what he wants. But I was trying to get him to move him into here, then move him into there, then he's looking at me. I've mismanaged, I've done it wrong. I haven't understood him. Now, where one or two players need that, they need that flexibility because they just get stimulated. They move, they move. And you'd be surprised how many you do have at a club. You don't get a team full of them, you get two free if you're lucky. They're the ones who start moving. They're just the ones who start dictating your team. They start like coaching before you go down to do anything on the side. So give them more, give them more, give them more. And the other ones, they, they know what they're doing. So. And I like, at the same time, like everything, like when you're doing it, you want to be you. You don't want to be scripted on a. Like, oh, you've got to say this or ask this question or ask that. No, you want to be the best version you can be, but you need to be free, you know, and then you're going to get the best, you're going to be the best at what you do. My right is Blaze is the same. Let them be them. Like in a final field, I can't tell you what to do. I can get you there, but whether it's a step over, whether it's a croat, I do not know. That's your own ability. That's whatever you're good at and which you clearly Are because you wouldn't be here be you just commit, give it away, not a problem. We'll win it back, you know. And I feel that's what I would have wanted. I would have liked that.

[Interviewer]

So that's interesting there. You said just be you, which for a lot of players is difficult because they're like, what, be me? With 50, 000 people watching and live television cameras and qualification on the line.

[Craig Bellamy]

We don't play for them. And I don't. I mean that in the nicest way. You know, their emotions are supposed to be high, low. There's that roller coaster they're supposed to be on. We ain't. We've got to be clear. So if they shall get it, forward it long it, believe it or not, it'll work against us. No, we have to keep it. Then we move it, move it the other side. So let them be them. That's what they pay their money for. That's what they have. Their view, completely respect it and need them as well at times, you know. But if it isn't going well, we still gotta be us, not them. Do you understand?

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Craig Bellamy]

They're supposed to ride the roller coaster. We can't, nor do we want to because our game then becomes inconsistent and our flow becomes inconsistent. We can't allow that to happen. We start taking unnecessary or start moving the ball where we don't need to be moving it or people are not controlling in positions, then we become vulnerable because we've got involved in emotions. Now if we stay away from that, we play for us. Do you understand? You play for the person next to you, you play for him next to you. You know, let them get on with it. That's there, that's for them. It's not for what we're trying to do. And once you move that away, players like I found and I don't know, and that's maybe a younger coach. I say younger coach. I'm not quite young, I'm 45. But maybe an inexperienced coach. I see players, they're fine. Then, you know, it's about us, it's about what we do, you know, of course we look at the opposition. We adapt, but enable to be adapt in different shapes because we're going to about six in a game. That's with and without the ball. Then we change that up again. So like our library is quite extensive. It needs to be, but it has to be. If you're clear in mind, if you forget about the library because you're getting involved in. Oh, no, I'm gonna have to start running here and doing that because you hear roar or you hear a boo or something or it affects you that way, then you're not going to be able to play the way we want to play. So we have to be clear on that. It's like we play throughs in this room.

[Interviewer]

You said one other thing there. Again, almost a throwaway comment that I imagine your Wales players have heard from you. You said, we lose the ball, we win it back. So again, giving your players, I guess, some psychological safety to be able to be wrong, to make mistakes have to be.

[Craig Bellamy]

We can't score if you don't. You know, I've never seen a goal just perfectly moved and they're there. You very rare. You get that. It's about trying to beat a man. It's about. I don't like the word risk. I try and, like, keep that well out of every team meeting I do. It's like, take responsibility. That's the key for me. Take responsibility.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

And what's the difference?

[Craig Bellamy]

Like, risks. Like, what's the risk? You know, it's like, I don't see football as a risk. Like, play out from the back. If you've got seven against five, you've got two extra players. We could do this all day. I could put you on a possession area this size here. The five wouldn't touch the ball and they'd be looking at me going, we're up against seven. It's not fair. Why wouldn't we do that then in a match? Because what. People see that as a. Like, they like to use that word. That's not a risk. It's common sense. Has to be common sense. Now, if they go 7ft 7, then we've got more space on the back line. That's what I want. That's all I care about. Can we go there and won? Because I'm in the space, then it's a fair fight. But if we go there and won because they got five against our seven, but then surely their numbers, then, okay, we go five, six would include the goalkeeper because now they go a lot higher. Against what? Our free. Who's going to win it? Who's going to win a second ball? They are. So I'm just giving them possession, you know, but people get fearful of that. I can't understand it. I've never been able to understand it because I was that player trying to win a flick on or trying to control it. And I got one player coming from there, one player come from the front, and then you look at me saying hold it up. How can I hold it up? Yeah, it didn't make honestly and even that's why I was probably more frustrated as a player. It was like, but no, you create the scenarios. But if you give me a 1v1 when it's a race, then we're in, then we got a game on, you know. So create the scenarios, the right scenario to benefit that player, to give him the fair chance, give him the opportunity. So that's all like that part is.

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[Interviewer/Co-host]

There's another lovely bit you said there about we play for the people in this room. That idea of you create that team spirit that those strong bonds. How do you do that?

[Craig Bellamy]

Team's everything. It cannot be individual run. It's impossible. Now the more say for instance, the individual buys into the team, the better it's going to be for the individual. Then you'll be able to perform even better. You know? Now for me, it's like we have to respect our roles on the pitch. Now if you interchange in our problem, I never. But you have to own that role. Don't think you can start disappearing now and start no, you have to respect that role, respect your position. Now I'd always say with players, for instance, you might not touch the ball, but I'm telling you about the best game because you've been in the right position, you've occupied 3, 4 of their players, allows us to free up someone else. But if you start wandering because you're not getting it and think you can play for you, the whole structure breaks. Then we lose out. So then you're not playing for the team. You're thinking about you. So the team's the most important. Now understanding that role, I might have to sacrifice my game today because I'm not getting a touch, but I'm occupying players because that's what you're going to do if you're not getting a touch. Frees up someone else and realizing that that's the team and that player appreciates that one. When you recover, do we all recover back? Is the forward still hanging up there? Then he's not part of the team, can't be part of the team. So then you lose and we lose out. Then you're not respecting the team, so you have to come back as well.

[Interviewer]

I tell you what, I think this is a brilliant conversation and it's so nice to delve into the way you're managing Wales and the way you're talking to your players and the culture that you're trying to is that there are still people that will think of, I don't know, a story from the past. Like when you went, John Allen and Risa were the golf club. Right.

[Craig Bellamy]

I think a lot of people are gonna let go. Well, exactly. That's the point. No, but I understand we need to sort of.

[Interviewer]

But this conversation stands as a testament to the fact that you can be that person at one point in your life where you had demons and struggles and challenges and issues, but you can also be this person as well and not put people in a box like this anymore.

[Craig Bellamy]

Yeah, I know. I think I've always been this person, but what's allowed me is to bring this person to the front. I've always been this. I'm always happiest being this person now. This person was always there, but how can I be consistent with it? And as we know with everything, like, we talk about habits, but life is consistency. How can I be consistent?

[Interviewer]

So where was this guy on that day when you lost it and went with the guy, where was this guy then?

[Craig Bellamy]

In alcohol, there's no reasoning. There's no reasoning now, what might sound like a good idea, come alcohol into that. There's no good ideas. You just go wherever you feel your ego is going to take you at that time. So that's another reflection of like, well, is drinking right? Does it suit me? Does it help me? No, it doesn't. Any real incident I've ever had has been drink related. Now, I'm lucky I don't drink that much because probably you'd have seen a lot more. Now it doesn't suit me, so I have to be conscious of that as well.

[Interviewer]

So you were drunk when that happened, right?

[Craig Bellamy]

Yeah, of course, of course. It's the most insane moment going, trust me, this is not an excuse. Obviously something was going on there to allow that to happen no matter what I thought the situation was at the time. But that moment of actually taking a step back, realizing what's good, what's not, wasn't even there. Wasn't even. Wasn't even part of it. I was fully aware of the consequences and I wasn't even the day after, didn't have a problem with it. And then a couple of months after, then you start. That wasn't the most cleverest moment in my career, which I'm gonna have to live and answer questions like this 20 odd years on. I have to own it. I also have to move on from it as well.

[Commentator/Co-host]

Yeah.

[Craig Bellamy]

Because a lot of the mistakes I made, I beat myself up well over, like beyond like what you can even ask me, you know, those moments haunt me even now. Oh, of course, of course. But there's a period then you've got to let go. You've got to let go. It's like, I can't beat myself up over, you know, like my first partner being unfaithful constantly, you know, that haunted me. Hated it. Couldn't like beat myself up anymore. In the end, you've got to start being kind to yourself as well. It's like, look, grow like this, done. It's part of your life that you can move away now, you know, it's like, can't keep hanging over you. And I think as soon as I was able to move away from that and put that to the side, it doesn't mean I don't regret. It doesn't mean I'm not like. But that moment is done now. It's like, where's the future?

[Interviewer/Co-host]

But how do you be kind to yourself?

[Craig Bellamy]

That's a good. It's a really good question. But I'm like, I think you could tell even in my interviews and how I speak. And not just like, I'm not talking about this one now, but when you see me do an interview, like even Wales and everything, everything's positive because that's what I'm living my life now. That's all I care about. I don't care about the consequences of getting beat. People, like, I do not care. And I don't mean that in an arrogant. Far from it. I'm like, completely not that way. But I'm like, I want to have a go. I rather much prefer, and I've said this before, to fail. But trying something great.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Craig Bellamy]

Than to do nothing and succeeding, you know, that's what that's like. That's my motivation, try and be something different. Now, I'm not saying I'm going to be that there's going to be plenty better managers than me, like, by a long way, and who I completely admire, but I'm like, I don't want to be like the others. Now, maybe the change of Wales, because we've been a lot of five at the back for five, four, one relied on an individual camped out and. And I don't mean use that word, counter, but it got us decent success. We qualified three tournaments. Now, when he spoke to me about being a manager, I'm like, I don't play this way, I play this way. Now everyone would be feeling like, you can't do that with them, you can't do this to them. Like, I was lucky. The director of football was like, yeah, great, this is what we want. And the players want you. You know, we spoke to them all as well. They all want you, you know, and I was like, let's do that. Yeah, I was there, I was there, Honestly, I was there. But I also, in my mind as well, when it ended with Gary, this is how we were playing as well. So this is like, oh, man, we're not coming. We're coming to. We're coming to take any. Like, I'm not worried about what transfer market value that squad is. What's transmarket like? And is it a fair fight at times? Probably not. Population of 3 million people, you know, we're in a city right now three times the size of our country, you know, population wise. But that means we don't stand a chance. No, of course we do. It's not always about pride and fight in which we like to resemble ourselves. Like, we have talent now. How can we excel? How can we make the difference? Do we do the same as what others are doing or do we try and be completely different? But we have to be really structured and really clear with our messaging and consistent with our messaging that's going to allow us to then maybe flip something down. Hasn't been done. Or for Wales, sorry. Other nations, of course, have done it and other club teams by a long way of done it, but that excited me the most, you understand? It was like, this is there. I have the players to be able to do it this way. Now you'll see Harry Wilson people are talking about sober, they've excelled and this. No, they're just being given what they should have been doing. Anyway, he plays the top.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

But can I use the Harry Wilson example? Because he's on record as saying, that you've helped him see football completely differently. And I'm interested in how do you think you've achieved that.

[Craig Bellamy]

I see football completely different to what I've seen over the last number of years. My brain has worked like different bits and I probably feel like me and Vinnie found that together as well. We started looking at different things, looking at this, looking at that best this, best that. How can we combine everything?

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Can you give us an example what you mean by that?

[Craig Bellamy]

I've been very lucky that I still work with people from an analysis background that have gone into coaching, that have taught me tools. And look at the trigger here, what's that do there? What's the habit here? Waving hands, turning back. So all these bits, you start highlighting these bits tell you a good team, I think they're a good team. Okay, we see this now, see that, see that? And then once they're looking like we got a chance here because we don't do that. That's an advantage straight away now.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

So teams that are berating each other or throwing their arms up when I'm.

[Craig Bellamy]

Mate, it's banned for us.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

We don't allow it because I think.

[Commentator/Co-host]

I get the reason.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

But tell us why you don't allow that.

[Craig Bellamy]

No, I want this wasting energy. But also it shows the opposition. It shows the opposition that you're. I wouldn't say all discipline, maybe that's a bit harsh, but you're not in the game too worried about other things. So, you know, we showed a moment. We've seen Turkey first game and their habits. We've seen waving our hands. If one don't go in and then. And then Y maz on the left wing weighs his hands twice, then a third instant gets a second yellow red card or in the space of basically 20 seconds, there's your moment. That's why we don't throw hands, because it leads to frustration, but also it leads to frustration from someone else. Now if I see a centre back coming up with a ball and he's waving his hands, where's my options? That just leads to the opposition, the pressure even more. So you're giving him a trigger. It's like as soon as my hands come out, I'm in trouble. So what do you think? If you were going to go play, you're like, oh, I'm going after. Yeah, if you do, it's normal to. We don't give you that. We cannot give you that. Do you understand? It's like they're like, we do not give anyone a helping hand.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

See that's different because I thought like when I go and watch football and I see somebody doing that to the teammate, the way I perceive it is that you've made a mistake and I wouldn't have done that. So you're almost saying that I think I'm better than you.

[Craig Bellamy]

I think it's complete like lack of respect to the player, to your own team. Yeah, yeah, we're going to be a team. We can't do that.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

How much time do you spend preparing for a game or to present a game plan to your players?

[Craig Bellamy]

Not quite a lot. You review quite a lot. Like even on my way here, I was watching the game back against Belgium again. So I'll be about six, seven time.

[Interviewer]

You watch a game back six or seven times?

[Craig Bellamy]

Try to. Yeah. Probably might go more.

[Interviewer]

What are you seeing after the seventh view that you didn't see first, second or third?

[Craig Bellamy]

No, I like, I try and break it down because I clip it all first and then write my comments towards it as well. But I just like looking at something. Then I see the body shape, you know, and that's from us as well. We side on as our timing. Right. Center back. You open because if you're closing, you have to take an extra touch. We can't afford an extra touch. We need to be done to OR1. But you can't do it if you're closed. So people talk about passing drills, for instance. Why are you talking about passing drill? People talk about the quality of pass, but if your body's not open, it doesn't matter about the past. You're never going to be able to play forward anyway to get the body open. Then you won't worry about the pass. So if your body shape, these little bits are not right, forget about all this. And we talk about playing, talk about building. Like if your body habits are wrong and they're not, your shoulders are up and you can't see as much of the pitch as possible, forget about it. Because the player, when pressing, if we see that on the opposition, we see. Look at the body language, looking square. So then you start changing your press a little bit. Because I want to go on the shoulder where I can see a number a little bit. And if I just start just a little bit, then your touch is going to go backwards. It's done, you've done enough. But our habit, if he's open and he can see me coming, I ain't going to press.

[Interviewer]

And aside from the actual game, what are the other non negotiables that you're bringing into this Wales squad that you think are making a tangible difference.

[Craig Bellamy]

Look, I don't like, they have a big togetherness, so that's definitely been left me by previous coaches. Like the bond. Like, the one thing I done was open the tables up. I don't like small tables. We all got to be together so we all eat together. The captain tells you when you can eat, when you can finish, when you can leave the table. He's in charge. I run a players committee. So the four or five of every camp go through tactics, go through what we expect this week, the simple messaging. So it doesn't just come from us, comes from you as well as players. So they get it, they know it. So I ask, what can help you? What can I do? Do you need anything for this or that? And. And they're usually brilliant because they're, you know, Ben Davis and that as well, who are like incredible leaders, credible people. So they give you something back. Do you understand? They teach you as well, which is so important. It's not just one. Like, you're teaching me to be a better coach. Like, I. There was a big thing made of, like, the shirt swapping. And it's not because I don't respect, you know, I want our shirt to be the most important shirt out there. Like, I understand if opposition are asking for it, no problem, but we're not going to give it away. You know, it's like you work too hard for that. Like, you have to own that. Now. I'm telling you, if I was at any club and it, like, whatever job I have, I don't. I hate the word even job. Like, wherever I'm working, it's the best place in the world, has to be. Has to be because I'm here, you know, this is the best. You know, there's no other place I'd rather be right now. And I feel that right now, of course, now, if I was, say, for instance, Norwich, it's the best place in the world. This is like the best place, you know, I'll make it the best place.

[Interviewer]

You know, that's my Norwich.

[Craig Bellamy]

No.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Yeah.

[Craig Bellamy]

It's actually a really good place. You're right, it's probably not the best example, but I know what you mean. Yeah, but no, but it always feels like the biggest place in the world, you know, once because we're there. And it was like, you know, even at Anderlech with Vinnie, we felt that, like, this is the best place in the world. When we have Burnley, it's best place. What better place can Work, like, come to do our work.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

And could I ask you, like, you've always had the strongholds of Cardiff and Swansea as football hotbeds. What your perception is of what's happening in Wrexham.

[Craig Bellamy]

Great, great. I'd like to see him have more Welsh players. I believe that's time. I like to see him with a younger team as well, but I believe that's time. You know, they've. They've just been, you know, just promoted, promoted, promoted. And they use a lot of experience and that for that. But what they've done with, obviously, with Reynolds and, you know, it's like these, like, he's not just an actor, he's like rap pit level, you know, Like, I would watch any film he's in. Like, if he's part of a team, I want to see that team as well. So not just being Welsh, like, wherever I was from, you know, and I can see why so many Americans and have sort of fallen in love with it. It's been hugely beneficial for Wales, not just Welsh football, for Wales as a country. I feel like a lot of Americans now know where Wales is. It's not just a small place by London. And that's only. That's only big for us. And the, you know, the. Honestly, I'd say everything about it's been so, so positive. But I believe in the long run, hopefully, Welsh football will really be able to benefit from them as well, because surely their academy is going to improve. Better players are going to allow better players then to come through and that's only going to benefit our country.

[Interviewer]

I think this conversation is so interesting because you seem so in flow, so happy, so content, so clear in the vision of what you want for Wales and the direction you're going to. But I also think we have to be really careful because there will be people listening to this who might still be in the place that you were in previously with mental health challenges and anxiety and all sorts of things. I think we have to. We can't make them think that, like, you were there and now you're here.

[Craig Bellamy]

Oh, no, no, no, no, no. It's every day. It's every single day. You know, every single day, especially even after the camp where the crash comes, then it takes me a good week. But, you know, the more tools you have, the more you learn about yourself, what sends you into a moment of being very quiet, what, like, how you need to be able to snap it, not snap yourself out of it. It's not like sometimes go with it.

[Interviewer]

Because you had an issue at Andelet. And you left because of depression, right?

[Craig Bellamy]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Are you happy to talk about that?

[Craig Bellamy]

Yeah, no, it was fine. It was. It was during. It was during COVID period, which was a test for everyone. And I feel for people like myself, you know, definitely deal with depression. It was beyond the test and probably the not knowing of one minute we're okay, then we have that flexibility, being able to move about, which I need to be able to move about. So we could be in lockdown again next week, or we can't do that. And that was really fearful. And that really would play on my mind quite a lot. I think I just got burned out from it because I threw myself a lot in work, because in work we could stay there. So, like, living at the training ground because, you know, it's like you go. Like, there was a curfew if you left and back home, and so stay there, you know, then I can get up the morning, you know, and just. And next thing you know, you've just worked beyond hours and just lost all fun, really. And I don't mean nothing to do with Anderlecht or with Vinnie. It was just like, I was worn out. I was just drained. And I knew carrying on wasn't gonna. I wasn't gonna be good for the players.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Craig Bellamy]

Generally just get snappy. Like, that cloud was over me.

[Interviewer]

What does that cloud feel like to you?

[Craig Bellamy]

Oh, everything's rubbish. Everything's rubbish. You know, I could have the best food going in the kitchen. It didn't taste nice, you know, just everything. And I was just like a flipping comment of, like, you know, those type of scenarios. Yeah. Don't enjoy anything. And I hate being that person. I cannot be that person when I need to be able to. I need even the smallest bits. Enjoy. You know, like I always say, and I really believe it, like, I am here for the tiniest period. You know, you think of civilization. You think, like, people won't remember me and not. That's not, like, why I'm here. And you know what I mean? Why am I interested or why wouldn't I be interested of loving it? Loving every second of being. So when my time does come, I do not know when I go, woof. I was tough. That was tough. That's what you should be. That's what, you know. And if someone gets to walk by my grave in my gravesite. And, like, I remember that brilliant, you know, most moments. But to me, it was like, you know, I got to live a dream, and I'm so, so grateful for that. I can just literally now, like, this period of football, of coaching at the part I mentioned earlier on where maybe I wish I enjoyed it more. Yeah, I'm gonna enjoy every second of this. So when you get those nerves just before the game, so natural too. I'm like, but I love this. This is what I want, you know, what's the worst that can happen? I lose.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

What are you doing to protect your mental health on a daily basis?

[Craig Bellamy]

I have, like, an incredible partner who's like the best person. We have two young kids together and they keep me, like. I really enjoy this stage of being a father. I've really been present through it and I've really enjoyed that. Every moment, every day changes with him and I look forward to that. You know, when I hear him in the cart in the morning, I can't wait to get up, you know, even though my partner might say different as well at times. She does. Yeah, she's really good at that because he does get up at 5 in the morning. But, you know, you see that smile. You see, like, where maybe I would have. I would have just wouldn't have seen that as much last time.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Craig Bellamy]

Because I wasn't as present and I don't know, maybe I think with my partner, being so in love gives me that feeling of I don't feel I've ever had. And it gives me that moment of like, I don't think I can love a person anymore. You know, it's that, like, strong. And I'm so grateful for that because I was always. Maybe I wouldn't get that. And I didn't want to live my life without having that now. Whatever happens in the future, I've had that.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

That's nice.

[Craig Bellamy]

I know what that is, you know, and that to me is like, it's worth more than any of this, you know, that person there, my partner, she is worth more than anything going.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

But you sound like a guy. When we listen to your biography of, like, it's an incredible survival story in many ways. You know, from the anxiety as a young boy to going to Norwich and feeling that homesickness and trying to sabotage and then having to put on a mask when you arrive at Newcastle to be somebody. What is it that's happened that's allowed you to be so vulnerable now? And therefore.

[Craig Bellamy]

No, I've just gained tools. Just like all the emotions and the feelings of. I didn't have the tools to be able to cope with it then. I wasn't aware. So a reaction is going to come. It's going to happen because I'm like so frustrated within myself and I don't know how to express it all. I feel this is normal. I just don't know what's going on.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

And if there was someone listening to this, then that is searching for those tools, would you advise the one that's been most effective for you to do that?

[Craig Bellamy]

I use someone even now in Cardiff who I see quite regularly. I think it's important for me sometimes even just to talk, you know, it's not like it's just airing something that might be just so, like unimportant, but actually getting it off your chest, like you walk out, like that's that, you know, and it's like you need that at times because as, as men, it's so normal. We do not talk about our feelings. Like, and even from years past, like, we're getting a lot better now, but it's still a lot, a lot of work to be done. Like, I am not a normal person, nor do I want to be. That's the honest truth. I'm unique because there's only one of me, you know, And I don't mean that. Nothing to do, like, thank God, probably a lot of people would say, but it is only one of me. Like, it's only me in this world. Like me, Greg Bellamy, you know, so why wouldn't I try and be kind to myself? Why when I want to live the best life I can and that's really what I try and focus on. And in order to do that, then I have to maintain myself as well. And not just like you would do with your body, fitness wise. And you have to maintain your mind because then I have a leadership role now. I will not be. If I can't lead myself, how can I lead a group, then how can I lead the country? It's impossible.

[Interviewer]

I wonder what you would say to someone who might have heard bits of this conversation and realized that maybe they're in a place you used to be, but they're too scared to go to therapy, they're too scared to open up, they're too scared to talk.

[Craig Bellamy]

I know, and I would understand it because it's common. Say for instance, when we look at. I don't like if I keep trying and that's say improvement myself or wherever it was in football wise. If I keep working, keep working, keep working, something could change, has to change. Now, I do not know when. It could be a week, could be a month, could be a year, it could be 10 years. But I honestly believe something will change. Now if I don't do something, if I don't have the consistency of waking up and getting out of bed, working hards and you know, these type of moments, how can I expect anything to change? If it does, it won't last. It's only going to be a short period. But if I constantly, no matter how much life's thrown at you and now like it's supposed to be hard, it's like, of course it is. And football even more so. And I don't mean. No, no, I, I, I'm actually wrong with that. Life's harder. But in football, you know, it's, it's got to be had because it's worth having. Nothing's going to come to you easy. It's impossible to. So you have to work now, it might not be going the way you want it to and that's in life as well. But if you keep being consistent, you keep work, something will change. It has to change. Now if you don't do anything about it, like I said, can't expect it to. Don't expect the same results. Expect it to be. And I think learning that and also like even pattern of man of what's going on, get up, go for a run, do whatever, you know, but get your ass out of bed. It's like, can't lie there all day. Something's going to change and when it changes, it's going to be amazing. It's going to be amazing. I do not know when, but I honestly believe something's going to happen. Like ridiculous. And when it does, like right then.

[Interviewer]

Some quick fire questions.

[Craig Bellamy]

Yes. Yep.

[Interviewer]

The three non negotiable behaviors that are most important to you.

[Craig Bellamy]

Turning your back. Now that could be block shots. Can't turn your back. And turn your back if they're like live like they're going to take a quick go. It cannot turn your back, throw it. Nothing. So always face the ball. I was taught that as a young kid from my dad anyway, so it was like that's always lived with me. Reactions. Soon as you lose it, win it back. That's your first thought. Have to win that ball back. And I would say no waving hands. Can't have that. It breaks me. It breaks me. Can't accept that.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

What advice would you give to a teenage Craig just starting out?

[Craig Bellamy]

Enjoy every second, enjoy it. You know what you might feel is bad or you might not feel like isn't, isn't. You know, just smile, smile, enjoy everything that's going to come good and bad. Embrace everything. I don't feel like done that enough.

[Interviewer]

If you could go back to one moment in your life, where would you go and why?

[Craig Bellamy]

This right now, honest truth, this right now, it's the most. It's the best. It's the best. And I'm right in it. Right in it. Like, it's been like a year now, so I don't know where. Like, you ever see the film Sureshank?

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Yeah.

[Craig Bellamy]

Yeah. When a guy is like, they're asking, like, Indian, like, they always believe that when he pass, that person gets to live that life back. No, it wasn't Shawshank. You have to forgive me. It's the Green Mile.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Oh, yeah, the Green Mile.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Craig Bellamy]

And it's like they always give you that moment of the happiest moment and this was being on top of a rock with his partner, newly married, you know, not saying what else they've done. But if you were. That was my moment, like, this would be it.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

And the final question, Craig, is what's your one golden rule to live a high performance life?

[Craig Bellamy]

Consistency. It's everything, you know, and that's just. That's consistency in your message, consistency in your habits. That's what allows you then, you know, I think if you can master consistency, you can master progress.

[Interviewer]

Listen, Craig, we both wish you the very best for the future. I think Welsh football feels like it's in exciting hands. But more importantly than that, it's not about football, this conversation, it's about life. And I think, you know, sometimes it is difficult to ask the questions and to answer the questions when we're talking about your mental health, challenges from your past and, you know, depression and mistakes and stuff. But to have a current international football manager sit here and talk like this, it's the kind of conversation you won't get it.

[Craig Bellamy]

You won't get. You don't get them. I think that's what's grabbed a little bit, what I've been doing. I try and be open. Yeah, I try and be open. And if you want to talk football, let's talk football. And I try and do that in my interviews as well. I'm not like other people and I don't mean to say I'm negative towards anyone else, far from it. I try and be me.

[Interviewer]

Damien. Jake, look, I thought I was talking to a stoic for a lot of that conversation. I think the most important thing that has come out of that is that I think sometimes when people are struggling with their mental health or their anxiety or they're in a bad place, as we both know, they feel that it is permanent.

[Craig Bellamy]

Right.

[Interviewer]

But this is a great reminder that you can be in the darkest and toughest and trickiest of places, but there.

[Podcast Host]

Is a way out.

[Interviewer]

And Craig, you know the answer he gave at the end there, that if he could go back to any moment in his life, where would he go? And he would choose now? Like, that's almost the most powerful and perfect way to finish that conversation.

[Commentator/Co-host]

Yeah, I thought it was incredible and a good reminder to all of us about labels, the danger of them. You know, sometimes you can develop a reputation and you could see his frustration in many ways that we had to ask him about some of those instances when he was labelled as a trouble or a difficult character. Whereas the label he's wearing now is of, like you say, is someone that's stoical, somebody that's reflective, somebody that's learned to love himself, you know, And I think sometimes it. It does us all good to be reminded that labeling people diminishes them in many ways.

[Interviewer]

I'd also be really excited if I was a Welsh football fan hearing that conversation, because the way he talks about his players, the way he talks about his nation, the way he talks about his behaviors and the culture he's trying to create, you know, Wales will never be the biggest football nation on the planet, so they've got to find another way to get an edge over the opposition. And it feels like he is looking for that edge.

[Commentator/Co-host]

Well, like, one of my big frustrations.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

When you watch football is, you know.

[Commentator/Co-host]

When you see players waving their hands at each other or berating each other.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

And things like that.

[Commentator/Co-host]

And I just think it's a sign of a weak team because they sort of signal into the opposition as well as to each other that you've made a mistake. And I wouldn't have made it or, you know, or highlighting it. And to hear somebody there making, like, just removing that as a factor, removing fear, removing this idea that we're underdogs. No, no, we deserve to go in and fight on an equal level. I'd love that if I was a Welsh fan, 100%.

[Interviewer]

And I tell you, Gary Speed will be looking down, smiling and very proud of what his buddy has managed to achieve.

[Commentator/Co-host]

That was lovely, that bit, wasn't it? I found that really moving. The way he spoke about Gavin is.

[Craig Bellamy]

Like I say, you're right, what you.

[Interviewer]

Say, you know, about, like. It almost felt difficult going into some of the. Like, when before the conversation, I thought, oh, he'll. We'll easily be able to talk about the tough things from the past because it's framed where he is now. But actually you realize that he's in such a good place now that a lot of that previous stuff almost doesn't make sense. Do you know what I mean? So that's why he doesn't want to talk about it. And it was at times it was difficult almost to crowbar in the conversations about like what went on at Liverpool or Newcastle. And I kind of felt before we did the interview that it needed those moments in it, but actually when the conversation was happening I felt it doesn't actually need those moments. Like where he is now is so much more interesting.

[Commentator/Co-host]

Well, if somebody says to you, listen, back then I was, I was suffering from huge anxiety. I was having to put on a mask, I was having to drink to cope with that social anxiety that was suffering from. Why would you then want to then go and explore somebody at their most vulnerable or the weakest when they go, I've made a mistake, it was stupid, I can't give you a justification of it. So it might make a great sort of after dinner anecdote, but it actually doesn't help anybody move forward. And I think listening to Craig explain that he didn't try to absolve himself of responsibility for the person he was then, but he's also taken responsibility to be a better person today.

[Interviewer]

I really enjoyed it. Thanks mate.

[Craig Bellamy]

Thank you.

[Podcast Host]

Of course, huge thanks from the whole team to Craig for his honesty and his strength in sharing that story. It goes so far beyond football. If it resonated with you, please hit follow on Apple or Spotify and maybe share this conversation with someone who needs to hear it. You can also get early access to every episode and exclusive bonus content on the high Performance app. And if you want more powerful stories.

[Interviewer]

From the world of football or sport.

[Podcast Host]

Check out our really cool chats with the likes of Dan Byrne from Newcastle, MMA fighter Tom Aspinall, F1 driver Carlos Sainz or Nottingham Forest captain Ryan Yates. Thanks so much for listening. We'll see you next time.

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