← The High Performance Podcast
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- [00:00]
Host
Hey everyone. Welcome along to this special re released episode of High Performance. You can probably hear it slightly noisy where I am. Florence, say hello.
- [00:07]
Florence
Hi.
- [00:08]
Host
Tell everyone. Where are we?
- [00:09]
Florence
We're in Paris.
- [00:10]
Host
And what are we doing?
- [00:11]
Florence
We're queuing up to going to a
- [00:13]
Host
museum which she is delighted about, obviously. But anyway, yeah, I am still in Paris. But listen, the team were chatting on WhatsApp and we decided that with a huge game coming up for Scotland, now would be a good time to re release our conversation with the Scotland manager, Steve Clark. So we've given it a bit of an edit and I think you'll really enjoy this. This is Steve Gibson giving a really interesting look at the way he's shaping his Scotland squad.
- [00:36]
Steve Clarke
Flow.
- [00:36]
Host
Move out the way. Sorry, Florence is just getting in the way of some tourists. How he's shaping his Scotland squad and how he's approaching a really huge game in the history of Scotland football. Anyway, I better get back to sightseeing in Paris, but thanks very much for your company during the football season for me and all the team on BT Sports. And enjoy this re released episode of the High Performance podcast with the Scotland manager, Steve Clark. Hey, Flo. Say bye everyone. Bye, everyone. Well done, Diane. How often do we talk about High Performance at home?
- [01:05]
Florence
A lot.
- [01:06]
Host
Too much.
- [01:07]
Steve Clarke
Yes.
- [01:08]
Host
There you go. Right, enjoy the episode, guys.
- [01:14]
Florence
Hi, this is Becca Moore of For the Girls podcast. All right, a quick shout out to our presenting sponsor. Apple Cash. Summer is here, which means the group chats are already spiraling with festival and summer plans. And we all know the worst part of being the one who fronts the money for the passes or housing. That's why this year we're only using Apple Cash. It's a super easy way to settle up because you can do it right in messages. Just tap the plus sign to get started. And the best part is you can spend the money you get right away anywhere Apple pay is accepted, every payment is secure and protected by face id, touch ID or passcode, and your transactions are never shared on a public feed. Set up your Apple Cash today in the Wallet app. Apple Cash services are provided by Green bank member FDIC. Terms apply. Hannah, I just Venmo'd you for dinner. Obsessed. I'm spending it right now in the lip gloss that's been sitting in my cart.
- [01:59]
Host
What do you mean, spending it right now?
- [02:01]
Florence
You can instantly spend your balance with the Venmo debit card or when you pay with Venmo at checkout. Stop.
- [02:07]
Interviewer 2
Say more.
- [02:07]
Florence
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- [02:32]
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- [03:08]
Steve Clarke
From Edinburgh.
- [03:10]
Host
Our special guest this evening is Steve Clark.
- [03:32]
Steve Clarke
Well, this is different.
- [03:35]
Host
Do you. Do you enjoy this kind of thing?
- [03:37]
Steve Clarke
No, I'm absolutely terrified. So let's crack on.
- [03:44]
Host
Well, you know how we start this podcast in your mind, what is high performance?
- [03:50]
Steve Clarke
I told you when you first tried to get me, come on and do this. And it wasn't for this live show. It was for one of the recorded ones that I didn't have a clue. So I gave a little bit of thought. The best I could come up with was a pathway to success, where probably the pathway is not really defined. So you have to find your own way down the path. And success is never defined either, because success is not always lifting up a big silver trophy. Success is measured in different types. On football, for example, success when I went to West Brom was to keep them in the English Premier League. You've got to look for all the high performance along the way to try and get to that level of success that you want to have.
- [04:33]
Interviewer 2
So can we talk about the pathway where it started from, Steve, Because I know you grew up on the Ayrshire coast and what your story fascinates is that you didn't get into football till relatively late.
- [04:44]
Steve Clarke
Would you tell us a bit about
- [04:45]
Interviewer 2
your journey before you got into football?
- [04:48]
Steve Clarke
No, no, listen. I was always into football. In Scotland when I was growing up, it was football or nothing. That's what you did. Came from a big family. My brother was a footballer. Professionally. My young brother wasn't quite good enough to be professional, but had a decent footballing career. My father was a good amateur player. Got a really bad injury when he was young, so never made it to the Top he always wanted his boys to play football. But more than that he wanted us to be successful, ambitious. And at that time football didn't make any money, no money. So when I left school, I was told to leave school at 16, wasn't going to university, none of that. You're going to get a trade. Son 16, leaving school, going in a factory environment. You soon grow up quite quick. You know, you're working with wise old men who are always looking to take the piss out the young apprentice. So you grow up quick. Was a good learning experience. Obviously the football career picked up a little bit. I got farmed out to play in the the AER junior league, which also toughens you up. Young boy 16, 17, playing against seasoned hardened criminals, I would call them. But I learned how to look after myself and obviously 18, I was offered a part time contract with St Man. So what lessons did you learn?
- [06:15]
Interviewer 2
Say going into a factory at 16 or playing in that Ayrshire league that you were still applying when you did end up going to Chelsea and going on to play it at sort of an elite level.
- [06:27]
Steve Clarke
You just pick up the experience of all these people that you work with. The factory is a different environment to football. Dressing room is totally different. But you get similar characters. They're there, they're always testing you, always being tested as a young person in there. Can you do this? Do you do that? They're always looking for you to make a mistake, to see how you react to the mistake. You get the ones who try and bully you and then you have to stand up to them. You have to recognize that they're trying to bully you. You get the ones that will help you and go out their way to help you. I met a lot of really good people in the factory. You just learn from these people and you try to take those values in. I think all of them wanted you to be honest and straightforward. Don't get above your station. And if you did get above your station, they knocked your head off. So it was a good way to grow up in a good learning environment for me.
- [07:22]
Host
And how does that compare to the environment that you want to now create as a coach or you do create as a coach? Can you see the parallels between the two, particularly when it comes I like
- [07:31]
Steve Clarke
honesty in the dressing room, I like honesty in the people that I work with. Right through from the staff, right through into the players.
- [07:39]
Host
How do you foster that?
- [07:41]
Steve Clarke
I think by example, you try and be as honest as you can be yourself sometimes. Football management, it's not so easy to be Completely honest, but you have to be as honest as you can be.
- [07:53]
Host
Can you explain that for us, why it's not easy?
- [07:55]
Steve Clarke
I think club management is different from the job I'm doing now, national team management, because you just borrow the players. So you borrow the players for the national team. They're not really your players and it's a little bit easier. You bring them in, you ask them to. They're there to represent their country. They all want to be there. I think that's one of the things that we've managed to bring back into the national team is a little bit of pride to be picked for the national team and go and play for them. Now when you're in a club environment, you have more time with them, you can work with them daily, you're there all the time. So you can drip feed those values in all the time. You can smell something in the dressing room. I think respect in football goes a long way. If your players within the squad respect each other, I think you've got a chance.
- [08:45]
Host
You have such a limited time though, with these players compared to their club managers. So what do you do to put into place the process to let them know as soon as they arrive with the Scotland team what the culture is like, what the expectation levels are, what your standards are? Because you don't have weeks and weeks and weeks to build these players up.
- [09:02]
Steve Clarke
You don't. But over a number of camps, you start to drip feed it in. Listen, it wasn't an easy start. I'm looking at this group of players who'd been there before and they had a long period of failure, failure, failure. Who didn't qualify for this, didn't do that. You're thinking, I need to find a way to change the culture, the environment, how do I do it? And I told the players that that was unacceptable. It's probably the only time where I've lost my temper with the players because they're not your players and you don't want to upset them and you don't want to have a go at them because it's difficult to repair that because you don't have the time that you have at a club. But I was angry, but between the November and the March, I'd already started thinking, what are we going to do? What are we good at defensively? Not great. We need to change. I phoned my coaches so we can't go back four. I want to go with a back three. I never coached a back three in my life. Change for me, challenge for me, challenge for my Coaches, the personnel we had, we had probably two of the best left backs in world football. Tierney and Robertson got to get them both on the same team. At that moment, I didn't think the centre back options were great. So let's pick three.
- [10:18]
Host
Three's better than.
- [10:19]
Steve Clarke
We'll see if that makes it better. But my deal on the centre backs was obviously to play Tierney as one of them. And I had this mad idea that Scott McTominay could play the other one. We were strong in midfield. I had good midfield players and I wanted to get at least three midfield players, possibly four into the team, which is how I started. I did fit four in. Nothing up front, really nothing great up front. We had one or two not trying to knock the boys down. The boys that were turning up were doing everything they could to be successful for us. But I needed to find a striker. Fortunately, I found an Australian one. So I knew that Lyndon was available to come. So I managed to have a conversation with Lyndon that persuaded him to come, had a really good conversation with Kieran Tierney to tell him that he was going to be the best left centre back Scotland had never heard.
- [11:14]
Host
Can you. Can you give us a bit of insight into how that conversation went? Because this is always interesting for people here that don't work in football. It's about what can they learn for bringing people on the journey with them. How did you get Kieran on the journey?
- [11:28]
Steve Clarke
Kieran had always a sort of method built up around Kieran that he didn't want to come and play with the national team, which wasn't correct. But I think he always felt that he was a better left back than Andy Robertson. And if you look at the two of them, there's not a cigarette paper between them. They're both fantastic players. So my job on that one was to persuade Kieran that he was better than Andy. And that's why I trusted Kieran to play less centre back and not Andy. Now that's probably not strictly true, but I had to sell it to Kieran. This is where I see you playing and I'm not telling you you're a defensive centre back. Now we've got the best overlapping left centre back in world football, probably because Kieran just goes and I'm standing on the side pitch going, kieran, where you going? But it works. It works. It works well. So was to sell that position to Kieran was important and it was a really good conversation. He asked a lot of really good questions. I told him I loved him and I wanted him to play There. And the conversation with Lyndon Dykes was quite straightforward. I said to Lyndon, listen, I don't know if you feel Scottish or Australian. I said, only you can decide. I said, I'm telling you, this is what we have in the national team. This is what's in front of you. This is your competition. But you have to decide if you want to play for Scotland or you want to play for Australia. Because I can't. I can't see inside your. In your mind. I can't see inside your body how you feel. And he phoned me back and he said, no, I'm Scottish, my wife's Scottish, my daughter's Scottish, and I want to play for the national team. And I think everyone agrees he's done quite well for us.
- [13:12]
Host
Yes, brilliant.
- [13:14]
Steve Clarke
But it's two different conversations. So it's a conversation where you're trying to sell a position to someone, and the other conversation is, you know, you want to say to Dykes, dicey, you know you're Scottish.
- [13:25]
Interviewer 2
Come on.
- [13:26]
Steve Clarke
But you have to let them make the decision.
- [13:29]
Interviewer 2
Steve.
- [13:29]
Host
I'm really interested to know what the likes of a Robertson or a McGinn brings to that Scotland dressing room. Not just as great footballers, but what do they bring as people?
- [13:41]
Steve Clarke
Personality, Special McGinn. I think the boys who play in the English Premier League, they bring an assuredness to the squad, a confidence. Andy Robertson's won the Champions League. He's been club world champion. He brings an assuredness to the squad. Kieran Tierney's down there playing now. Scott McTominay is not shy of confidence, plays at Man United. You see his performances every week. He's on that pitch, he puffs out his chest. And they bring an assuredness to the squad that everyone else buys into. You've got the captain of Celtic, you've got a future captain of Arsenal, captain Andy playing at Liverpool. But McTominay could be a captain at Man United. You've got. McGinn could be a captain anywhere. So you've got leaders, you've got people like Grant Hanley, captain of Norwich, as you well know. So we've got so many good people in the squad. And I think that has also been a process of trying to get good people in, trying to sell the idea that we can be successful, we can be successful. You've got to get that all through them.
- [14:47]
Host
Yes.
- [14:48]
Interviewer 2
Come on.
- [14:48]
Steve Clarke
You gotta believe.
- [14:50]
Host
But this is like the. I think that reaction, though, even that reaction is really interesting because I think if you're in London and Gareth Southgate says, yeah, we can be successful straight away. Everyone's like, yes, we can be successful here. There's still a hesitancy.
- [15:04]
Steve Clarke
There's still a.
- [15:05]
Host
Okay, maybe, like, it seems that it's still a process unpicking all of those previous years as you describe, trying to qualify, not qualifying second. The manager then doing it again and repeating. And there was always great players. Scotland's always had great players. I'd love to know psychologically, a. How deep rooted was that mindset of, well, we don't qualify, we just play qualifying matches, and how. Whether you underestimated, actually how deep that went and how hard you had to work to recover from it.
- [15:39]
Steve Clarke
I definitely underestimated it. And it was something we had to shake, but we shook it in probably the most Scottish way that you could, because in the playoff final against Serbia, I thought we were magnificent for 90 minutes and then an injury time. So you're one nil up and you're thinking, one more corner. Come on, lads, just defend it. Nah, nah, we'll concede the goal. So we'll go 1 1. And you're thinking, oh, my God, here we go again. Scotland, glorious failures. Because the performance from the first minute to the 90th minute before we conceded, I thought was as good as anything that I'd seen in a long time. For a Scottish team going away to a difficult opponent in Serbia. And you're on the sideline, you're thinking, oh, no, surely not again, surely. Because I don't think we could have recovered for the heart of that if we hadn't. If we hadn't qualified. I certainly couldn't have recovered for the heart of that, because I knew how close we were and how well we played. And I remember saying to them, the last thing I said to them before that there was 28 people in the room, I said, this is your chance to go and do it. I said, but don't burden yourself with what's happened before, because we cannot affect what's happened before. And the last thing I said to them was, don't play with the fear of failure. Try to play with the anticipation of success. And I think we did that up until that. Up until that goal. And then after that, we just hung on and we clung on. But obviously you can see the goal in the last minute. 1 1. You come together, the group, and I was worried for them. And then you start to hear the voices, your Robertsons. McGinn was off the pitch at the time, but in the group around Kenny McLean, Ryan, Jack Con, MacGregor, and there was a determination. We're still in the competition, we've still got a chance to go through. Let's make sure next 30 minutes, we give everything on the pitch and we get there okay. We had to go to penalties, which is a bit nerve wracking, but that desire was still there. So as a coach, I'm thinking we're all right. I didn't need to say too much.
- [17:45]
Interviewer 2
How did you learn to step out of your own way there? Because I can imagine at that moment there's a danger of your ego kicking in, of I need to come in and deliver a great speech and get them fired up. And yet you've described that you actually stepped out of the way.
- [18:00]
Steve Clarke
I didn't need to be there. You know your group, you know your players, you know what they're thinking, you know the journey they've been on and you know how determined they were to be successful. And it didn't need a big speech. It was keep it simple, keep the basics, don't make mistakes, stay in the game. And we did that.
- [18:24]
Host
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- [20:35]
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- [21:08]
Steve Clarke
so when we were
- [21:09]
Host
talking in the first half an hour and we mentioned world class basics, did that ring a bell with you?
- [21:15]
Steve Clarke
I think if you get the basics right, you've got the foundation to do anything you want. I'd never thought about world class basics, but I think football's a really simple game and if you do get the basics right and you've got good talent, then you have a chance to be successful. But if you don't get the basics right, everything falls apart. So in terms of world class basics, yeah, I suppose it comes down to the sort of perfect practice makes perfect, not practice makes perfect. That was what I was always told was perfect practice makes perfect.
- [21:46]
Interviewer 2
You've coached alongside some quite stellar names. Whether it's Rude Holly or you worked with Mourinho in his first spell.
- [21:55]
Steve Clarke
Bobby Robson. Sir Bobby Robson.
- [21:56]
Interviewer 2
Sir Bobby Robson.
- [21:58]
Steve Clarke
Kenny. So tell us, consistent.
- [22:01]
Interviewer 2
What was the consistent traits that you saw in those guys that we could learn from the top three?
- [22:10]
Steve Clarke
Top three? Mourinho Organization Attention to detail Kenny man Management. Bobby Robson, man management for sure, was probably one of the best in terms of man management. Bobby, not someone you'd look at his coaching sessions and go, wow, I want to copy that. But when he spoke to a player and you were in the room and you listened to him, you got emotional and you got excited for the player that he was talking to.
- [22:36]
Host
Can you remember a time when you sat there and heard a conversation and thought, this is amazing. This is something that I need to learn from?
- [22:43]
Steve Clarke
Yeah. Early with Bobby was obviously Rude. Had been at Newcastle just over a year. It didn't work out. He persuaded me to leave my London home, move up to the Northeast, uprooted my family, took them all up. And then one year later, he. He was scribbling a note after a game. So what are you doing? Lovely boy. Which is what everybody called lovely boy. I'm just writing a note. It was his resignation, but he didn't tell me. Woke up the next morning, he left. Thanks, Rude. And a lot of his issues up there had stemmed from the fact that him and Alan Shearer, two big egos, didn't quite get on. Best of mates now, by the way, they both work in the media and they love each other. At that time, nothing was every day. Every day was difficult. So we didn't get the best out Alan Rude couldn't get the best out of him. And Bobby came in and I remember Bobby said, I'm going to have a chat with Alan tonight, son. Before we played, we were actually back at Chelsea. So we're at Chelsea Harbour Hotel. And he brought Alan into the room and honest to God, he made the guy feel 10ft tall. I felt 10ft tall for Alan. It's unbelievable. You're going to be the main man. You are the main man. Hasn't worked out for you. You're a goal scorer, son. You're going to be the lead the line. You're number nine at Newcastle. Even through all, Jackie Melbourne, all the great number nines that played at Newcastle, you are the man out. The next day, lost 1 nil at Chelsea. Never scored. Hardly got a kick. Chelsea or Chelsea were better than us. Next week, home to Sheffield Wednesday. Eight now Shira. Four goals. And from there, Shira was back. And I was just on the back of one really good conversation from somebody who knew how to massage an ego and make someone feel good about themselves again and make someone feel really important. And that was a big lesson.
- [24:41]
Host
So here's a question then. Do you feel you get the credit you deserve for the management career? That you've had.
- [24:48]
Steve Clarke
I don't look for credit. It doesn't bother me. And people look at you, listen, everybody likes to be loved, everybody likes to be appreciated, but if the credit doesn't come, it doesn't come. I can live with that as long as I know. I can go to my bed every night and say, I'm doing the right job, I'm trying to do the right things, I'm trying to be good at what I do and I've got the love and support of my family. That's enough for me.
- [25:15]
Host
Lovely. I look at, you know, a really good example, I think, of where many of us would choose not to be football managers is that amazing eighth place in the Premier League for West Brom and fired four months later. Do you not allow ever a sense of injustice to build up? Or do you have to learn to accept that that is the life of a manager?
- [25:44]
Steve Clarke
That was my first sacking and they say, you're not really a manager till you get sacked. So I was a manager after that, but I'd also prepared when I was coming towards the end of my playing career, and I played in a time where you didn't finish as a millionaire. You didn't finish with loads of money. You just had a good living wage. If you saved a little bit, you could have a nice little pension. You would go and you have to go and get another job. I was fortunate. I managed to stay in football. And then from there did I feel. I felt a little bit aggrieved that I'd lost my job at West Brom. Did I deserve to lose my job? Probably not. We went to Cardiff, lost one nil, and you're driving back in the bus to the training ground. No phone call for the director of football, no phone call for the chairman, no phone call from anybody. You're driving back and you think, they're obviously not very happy with me. You drive into the training ground and you see the light on in the chairman's office and you just go, bye, bye, see you, lads.
- [26:46]
Interviewer 2
So can we ask from a different angle then, about. Because you obviously interview well to get jobs. So we've spoken about. When you've lost a job, will you tell us about the process of how you convince the chairman or the owner of a club or director of football to buy into your vision and to entrust you with the keys to that dressing room?
- [27:05]
Steve Clarke
The process is quite simple. You just sit down and you be yourself. I don't do presentations. I just sit down. I tell them what my Ideas are what I think I can bring to the football club. And then I let them choose. And I haven't had that many managerial jobs. I mean, was West Brom, was Reading for a year. I lost the job at Reading because I made a mistake of speaking to Fulham and then staying at Reading. Don't know why I did that, but things happen for a reason. And then I had the job at Kilmarnock, which went very well. And then I've had the national team job, so I haven't had too many. But in an age where you hear
- [27:47]
Interviewer 2
about managers sort of coming up with really slick PowerPoint presentations and being able to speak the lingo of the sort of. Of the values of a club and things like that, for you to be almost anachronistic by just coming in and being yourself, do you feel that that puts you at a disadvantage?
- [28:06]
Steve Clarke
No. I think if you can sell yourself, you've got a better chance than some flashy presentation that somebody else has prepared and you're presenting. If you want me to do the job, I can do the job. If you don't want me to do the job, thanks very much. I'll try somewhere else.
- [28:22]
Host
And now it brings us up to the current day and you've got the small matter of a couple of playoff games coming up.
- [28:28]
Steve Clarke
Yeah, can't wait. It's been a long break.
- [28:32]
Host
Tell us the crowd are confident. Tell us how you're feeling then. Ahead of. Ahead of these two.
- [28:37]
Steve Clarke
That's good. Obviously we finished the group stage very well. Six consecutive wins is tough to do. Two great nights at Hamden with a close call against Israel. We managed to nick a goal in the last minute and obviously the game against Denmark was a fantastic performance and a good night and great for everyone. And you just feel there's a little positivity around with the following. The supporters of Tartan army are getting excited, which is great because I know the players are excited for it. The players are looking forward to it. Is going to be a tough game. Ukraine is a good team, really well organized. If I said that, you look at the four teams ourselves, Ukraine, Wales, Austria, for me is a 25% chance for everybody. We'll go there, we'll give our best and hopefully we're best will be good enough.
- [29:30]
Host
Would you just give us an insight into what your message will be for those players ahead of that period? Because it's about being up for it, but not being so up for it that emotion takes over and it negatively impacts the performance.
- [29:43]
Steve Clarke
Please, whatever you do, lads, when you go out in front of this show house at Hampden. The Tartan Army. They're there. They're there to support you. Go and play. Don't freeze. And I think if we do that, we can get through the first game and then you have to go away. Wales or Austria? Bring it on.
- [30:00]
Host
It's been an absolute pleasure, so thank you very much for giving up your evening in front of the crowd. Ladies and gentlemen, your manager, Steve Carr.
- [30:31]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
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- [31:01]
Host
Kramer, host of the best one yet AT T. Boy, we're always talking about small decisions that can have an outsized impact. One of the simplest is staying hydrated. Whether I'm traveling, getting a workout in, or heading into a busy day, I keep Liquid IV on hand. It's clinically demonstrated to hydrate faster than water alone and contains three times the electrolytes of the leading sports drink, plus eight vitamins and nutrients. It's an easy addition to your daily routine and helps support hydration when you need it most. Shop now@liquidiv.com, liquid IV hydration that goes wherever life takes you. Hannah, I just Venmo'd you for dinner.
- [31:34]
Florence
Obsessed. I'm spending it right now in the lip gloss that's been sitting in my cart.
- [31:38]
Host
What do you mean, spending it right now?
- [31:40]
Florence
You can instantly spend your balance with the Venmo debit card or when you pay with Venmo at checkout. Stop.
- [31:45]
Interviewer 2
Say more.
- [31:46]
Florence
More. Exactly. The more you do with Venmo, the more you get, like, earning up to 5% cash. Back with Venmo stash. Get the Venmo debit card or check out online. Venmo Stash bundle Terms and exclusions apply. Max $100 per month. See terms at Venmo Me Stash terms. Venmo checkout not available at all merchants. The Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp Bank NA.