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The High Performance Podcast
Joe Cole: Inside Chelsea’s Ruthless Era - Abramovich, Mourinho & Mind Games (E378)
01:20:33
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- [00:01]
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- [00:31]
Damian
All right.
- [00:31]
Joe Cole
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- [00:38]
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- [00:39]
Joe Cole
Actually, you can sell your car in minutes.
- [00:41]
Workday Go Advertiser
False. That's gotta be true again.
- [00:43]
Joe Cole
Carvana will pick up your car from your door or you can drop it off at one of their car vending machines.
- [00:48]
Damian
Sounds too good to be true.
- [00:49]
Joe Cole
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- [01:00]
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- [01:02]
Joe Cole
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- [01:04]
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- [01:05]
Joe Cole
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- [01:34]
Joe Cole
Roman never came to Cobham. So I was like, all right, yeah, no problem, Dave. He said you're staying at Chelsea and just left it like that. Silence. This knee injury would come bang. Not the same player again. I've seen players give up and it's ugly. But I didn't stop trying looking when he got not well, you find it difficult to talk. So I wrote a letter. Everything that needed to be said was said. A lot of who I am as a person is down to him. Yeah.
- [02:03]
Damian
That is the voice of Joe Cole, legendary England and Chelsea footballer, Premier League champion, West Ham hero. A player who lived through one of football's most dramatic power shifts.
- [02:13]
Jake
Well, this isn't a story about trophies and glory. Not just that, anyway. This is also a story about a kid from a Camden council estate who played the beautiful game whilst he had the sound of oasis playing in his head. And a dad who went to prison but taught him everything about kindness, loyalty and never backing down.
- [02:30]
Damian
This is a very interesting conversation and I Just want to say thanks to Joe, actually, because I've worked with Joe, known him for a very long time, and he opened up in a way he hasn't before and actually sent me quite a few messages. Damien, after the record, sort of just constantly checking, is it okay? Does it matter that I was vulnerable and that I opened up? Which I think tells you a lot, right, about the world that someone has lived in. And you will hear Joe open up, but he will also talk about the intensity of Jose Mourinho's management, the public criticism, the tactical warfare, and why he could take some of that criticism when others couldn't. He'll discuss with us the moment he tried to leave Chelsea and ended up in Roman Abramovich's office being told very simply, you're staying. And actually, the importance of staying true to roots is something that comes through time and time again in this conversation. And you will hear him discuss his love of that time at West Ham.
- [03:20]
Jake
This is also a really beautiful story about George Cole, Joe's stepdad, who couldn't read or write. He had run ins with the law, but he still showed up at every game around the world and handed out tickets to kids who couldn't afford them. George was a man who changed his entire life so his son could chase his dream.
- [03:38]
Damian
And so this is actually about what happens when the music stops, when the cheering ends, and when someone like Joe has to figure out who they are without football in their life. It's a great conversation, Joe, thank you. Once again, as we welcome to High Performance, Joe Cole. Well, welcome to the show. It's nice to see you again. I loved working with you, and we can talk a bit about our time shed on BT Sport a bit later. But you're here to talk about this. Yes, Your new book. I've read the book and I think it's great. I think it's so interesting because I felt like I knew a lot of your story, but actually, there's a lot that I obviously didn't know, because I think you're sharing things for the first time. And one thing that stood out, understandably, was your time at Chelsea.
- [04:21]
Jake
Yeah.
- [04:22]
Damian
And there's a moment where you say joining Chelsea at the stage that you did felt like joining a cult. So would you take us into what that cult was like and why? That's the. That's the word that you used.
- [04:33]
Joe Cole
It become this thing. You have to remember, I was a Chelsea fan as a kid, so I've been. I've stood on the shed. You know, I was Ball boy at the club. So the whole club. I've seen the club grow and grow. Love my time at West Ham. Loved West Ham as well. That's clear in the book. As. For sure. And then. But Chelsea was growing and growing. But then Roman come in and then Jose come in and I think, like, they made this. It made it like this place where you're with us and we're going in this direction. And it was so strong, the bond we had as a team. The. It felt like us against the world because we were the new kids on the block. When you're in it, you don't realise it, but we were. We were disruptors. Do you know what I mean? It was like Manchester United, Liverpool, Arsenal, Barcelona, Real Madrid's, Milan's, Chelsea weren't supposed to be there. This was all new. This money had been flooded into the game. Some of the best players in the world were playing for us at the time. Just like thinking about it now, Jose was brilliant at bringing this group together and giving us a combined cause. Do you know what I mean? Like something to fight for. And it did. I said the word cult. Yes. But in the nicest possible way. Do you know what I mean? Not. Yeah, yeah.
- [05:51]
Damian
So take us to day one, then, with Jose.
- [05:54]
Joe Cole
Yeah.
- [05:54]
Damian
What are your memories of the initial impact that he had?
- [05:57]
Joe Cole
You know, when you get. Well, I like to think now, at the age I'm at and. And playing for the career of Adam. And also the. The job we do now where we speak to a lot of managers.
- [06:08]
Jake
Yeah.
- [06:09]
Joe Cole
You get a sense of a manager, whether they've got it or what they are, and whatever it is that a manager's got. This moment you met him, he had it. He sort of. I don't remember if it's the first time. It might have been the first meeting, but he did something where he presented what he was and what he was about. And then he's. There's a date that come up and he said, we're going to win the league on this date. And it was like three weeks before the end of the season. But he was like, this is who you are as footballers. You've not won anything. I've just won the Champions League with Porto. If you follow me, you will all be champions. And it was something. It was almost something simple, which. Whatever your motivation was, whether football was your motivation, money, cars, whatever you wanted to do, you still wanted to be a champion. And I remember the confidence he said it with, you know, you people, there's a lot of. You see it with boxers, don't you? Like, they could be ones that are talking really well and they go in the room.
- [07:05]
Damian
You could have just gone, oh, look, it's just words.
- [07:06]
Joe Cole
Yeah, it's just words. There's something in his essence which made me believe him and clearly like, he was right because we all went on to and to win things together. And what about the date? Yeah, the date was on it. If it wasn't, it was a weak either side of it because we won it quite early. Yeah, we won it like two, three weeks before. And he's just like. It was just Jose. He had this like this mystical thing at the time, if you remember, like where the press couldn't put him in a. Put him in a box. He would drive Ferguson mad, the Wenger mad, because he was like, he had this swagger about him and he was young and good looking and, you know, so he was just. And we were just like, we were following him. We'd got like. All of us would have run through brick walls for him.
- [07:49]
Jake
But what was the reaction in the dressing room after he's done that presentation and told you the date?
- [07:54]
Joe Cole
I think the lads were just. Another thing he'd done was he brought in this new style of coaching training, where it was, it was. For an example, we had ball boys returned like for training. It's all pretty across the thing now. You go and watch an under 12s, under 13s academy and they all do the same things. We go, right, we're doing this for four sets of three minutes, then we're doing this for seven sets of four minutes. And then we did. And it all moves fluidly and the balls are in the right place. But that was new in English football. Everything had a purpose. If you want footballers to be happy, you let them play football, as mad as it sounds like. So there was no, none of this long distance running stuff into football. So he had something different about him. It's a bit exotic. Then he had the confidence and the bravado and we were just. We started winning from the off. So it was just momentum. And then you win games, you have more conviction in it, more belief and you just, just keep going. I think a lot of the trick of being a top manager is you have to convince the player. Anytime the manager doesn't believe in what they're saying, might be a little glance over, a nervous shake of the hand or something, players pick up on it. There was never. Whenever you saw him, wherever he was in the building, he just had an assuredness about him. I saw him the other day when he come over to manage Benfica, because. And I was asked a question about him, and I said, I think he. I think he's like the shankly character of Chelsea, you know, because Chelsea, now, for the kids growing up, Chelsea, they would probably think Chelsea have always been at the top of the pile, Champions League winners and Europa League winners and everything. But that weren't always the case. And I put it down to him. I said, he was the man that come in and went, bang. This is what we are as a club. And a lot of the culture still to this day is from that time.
- [09:41]
Damian
Would you take us to some of those behaviors, though, that has helped to create that culture? Because, you know, we wouldn't be doing your time there or Jose's time there, due service if we didn't talk actually about the intensity, like the demands on you as a footballer.
- [09:56]
Joe Cole
Everything was competitive in training. Everything was driven with. There would be a winner and a loser from this set. And it'll be like. There'll be a tactical element to it. Like, we'll be working on pressing, for instance, so you sort of get a sense of it now. Now it'll be right, okay. Clearly, that was. He wanted to get us being great. And one of the things he talked about was transition, when you've lost the ball and then you win it back and how important it was to go and do that and be in the right positions and know that if you go and somebody else don't go, he's pulling them out on it. And. And why did you not go? Bit tired or didn't fancy it? No, if he goes, you go. No matter what your legs are feeling, right? So the demands were there. You didn't want to be that guy that let him down on the press, for instance, from a tactical perspective. So that's one element of it where the demands were high. Quite interestingly, though, sort of off the pitch, he left us. There was. I don't think there's any. I don't there's any question marks about, you know, lifestyle or something like that. It was like when you walked in, you. You pulled on the kit to train or play. The demands were there as soon as you left Harlan at the time. You know, remember, this is the era of. Of News of the World and lads and things like that. So that wasn't a real issue. It was very much. I'm a. We've got to get this bit right on the football pitch. You just like, if you felt like if you let him down or you'd let your teammates down. You. That fear was. Was entrenched in you. Do you know what I mean?
- [11:30]
Jake
So what would you be doing in terms of. To improve as a footballer? What were the basics?
- [11:36]
Joe Cole
Being hard to beat. Winning the ball back early. Yeah. Supporting your teammates. And by that means, like, if the ball goes forward and I'm not in the right area to give an option, there's plenty of players that can get away with not doing. If you're not there, you're letting your teammate down. Do you know what I mean? So you. The tactical work was actually, was. Was intense, but it was where it was all done within the session. You didn't feel like you was doing it. You're like learning unconsciously, you know, because it'll be right, you know, ball goes up to Drogba. I've got to be here. Someone else has got to be there. Someone else got me there. And if they're not. And then if you often see him, if you're watching us in that time, you see him jump out of the dugout, arms everywhere, often at me, sometimes other players, but it'll be. And you as a football fan, you think, what's he got mad for there? Somebody else lost the ball. It happens all the time. But because we wasn't where we were supposed to be on the football pitch at the right time. I remember the Barcelona game away. He was on me about this lad, Ronaldinho. I knew he was a good player. I do watch football, but he said, you have to. When he gets the ball, right, this is what levels in football. When he gets the ball. And I knew my job as the right midfielder, right winger and the left back runs beyond. I've got to go with him. He's my man, right? This is no time to pass him on. He's my man. But as a wing, you, sometimes you should. You're, you know, you're trying to save your leg. So if the ball goes into Ronaldinho, he's got his back to goal. I think the fullback's made a bad run, so I'm not going to follow him like you run that way, mate, because he's going to lose the ball. I'm going that way. But Ronaldinho's done this move and slipped in the fullback. I think it was Van Broncourst and he's whipped it across the box. Someone nearly tapped it in and I just, like. I didn't want to look over at the box, at the bench. I'm like, oh, no. And I know. Do you know what I Mean, and I can see he's here. But I was thinking, I've told you so many times, you go with a runner. And now I know, right? Okay, that's run. There's no one like Ronaldinho in the Premier League. You can. Who can find that pass from there. So then I'm switched on. I don't ever. I don't think I never lost another runner for the next two and a half years. I didn't want that treatment. We lost the game. 2, 1, and we'd won every game up to that period. More or less in the league. We was flying and Drogba got sent off in the first day. So I think we've actually done all right to come out of here. Two one down away from home. And he's dug me out a few times in the media and privately and in the group. Fine, no problem. You know, it's football. But then he starts coming for all the big hitters in this team meeting. He's Petter jt Lamps Maca. He wasn't good enough. Not good enough for me. And I'm thinking, wow, if he's saying to these boys, wait till he comes for me and Duffer, we're in trouble here. Do you know what I mean? Because I'd usually be getting it and. But he ended up. He rolled up me and Duffer. Yeah. I think he ran out of steam by the end of me. Like, you thought, we're all right and I thank God.
- [14:36]
Damian
Or you and Damian Duffer.
- [14:37]
Joe Cole
Yeah, we wasn't. We wasn't great, but we was. That was the first moment in that season where we was outgunned by a team.
- [14:45]
Jake
Right.
- [14:46]
Joe Cole
And there was no pretense. I'm not going to pretend we played well. But then by the time the next leg come along, I still think the first 30 minutes of that game is probably the finest game we played as a group at Stamford bridge. We went 30 up against Barcelona of like, you know, etum, Ronaldinho, Iniesta, Julie Xavi, they was all there and we free knew up. It could have been four or five. We ended up winning the game and going through. It's a great night, but it showed that he knew what needed to be said.
- [15:19]
Damian
So do you think the conversation after the first leg is the reason for that performance in the second leg?
- [15:22]
Joe Cole
Yeah, I think it was maybe three, four days before, but I think it just set the tone because it just, you know, maybe put a couple on notice who were starting to, you know, think we was better than what we were so it was maybe dragging a few down, maybe. Maybe he said to me and Duffer, you know, we don't need to push them down anymore. Maybe they need a little lift. Duffer scored against Barcelona in the second leg, but everyone was at it as a team for that first 30 minutes against that great side, who I still think is the best team I've played against. They wanted to. Haven't won a Champions League the following season. We knocked them out that year. Young Messi was just coming on the scene. That felt like us at our best, that 30 minutes. Do you know what I mean?
- [16:08]
Damian
You say in the book, I'm usually his favorite target when talking about Jose. And there was, of course, that famous moment where Jose went out in the press and said, we needed 11 defenders. We had 10, you know, talking specifically about you not tracking back and not working hard enough for the team. I find this so fascinating because I wonder whether there was a moment where Jose thought, this is a kid that needs the criticism for me to get the best out of him. There must have also, I guess, been a moment where he realized you could take it and keep on moving forwards. But I'm just fascinated by your relationship with someone who was seemingly so critical.
- [16:42]
Joe Cole
Yeah, well, the thing is, like, as a person, I've always liked him because I thought a lot of it was tongue in the cheek and hilarious. You know, like, when he was. I saw that even as a young man, I like the fact of his bravado and in the conversation we'd have. So I'd always liked him. Yeah. I got brought up in an era where the manager was king and the manager could say what he wanted to the players at any time. And you. You say, yes, sir, on we go type thing like this. So.
- [17:12]
Damian
And.
- [17:12]
Joe Cole
And I think he was vocally quite critical of me, I think, because, like, in. I think he's clearly a genius of a manager because of what he's won. I think he looked at me at the time in my career and thought, there's something called squeeze more out of this kid. And also I think he. He may have thought he can take it. You know what I mean? And it will benefit you. Yeah, well, of course, like. And. And the reason I would say I could take it is because. Because of your upbringing and where you're from, you. You get this. You get more of a thicker skin for these type things. I'm not going to say some of the criticisms didn't sting because we, you know, we all want everyone to be patting us on the back all the Time. But you have to remember as footballers, people always patting you on the back. He's always great, you know, you have, you're great everywhere you go. This love, love watching you play. And he was actually one of the first managers that really tested me there wasn't. He wasn't the first. I had someone I played for in the under 15s called Keith Blunt, who was Blunt by name, Blunt by nature. Tough Yorkshireman. When I went to Lily Shaw and he, he judged me before he saw me as a cheeky chappie young Londoner coming up here, the flicks and tricks and all that. And so. And it actually, when I look back now, even as a 15 year old, so we'd finished training, I was year 10, year 11, so 15, 16, we'd all get assigned jobs and I was half ass in one of the jobs I was doing. It was to clean the dressing room. Then we all went up for dinner and I mean dinner. And he's come bursting into the dinner hall hammering me cockney, this flash Londoner, go down and do your jobs. And I was like, it was embarrassing. The lads are like looking like that. So again. But because, because he called me, he doubted me. I went down and I cleaned them, cleaned them dressing rooms and I still, to this day, I reckon I was the best at cleaning them dressing rooms for the next year because I didn't want to be different. I played different. The way I played. He was the first person to use that type of psychology on me. And Jose probably saw that every time he'd give me a bit of stick, I'd be there ready to go and ready to play the next day. He'd do or say anything to get the win, you know, and some, some people might not like it, but they, maybe they can't play at Chelsea or for Jose. I'm sure Alex Ferguson was the same. You hear stories of him with players. You know, it was pretty normal back then.
- [19:45]
Damian
There was a period where you got frustrated, right, with what was happening at Chelsea.
- [19:49]
Joe Cole
Yeah.
- [19:49]
Damian
And decided to do what I don't think very many footballers have done in their time, which is go knock on the door of the owner of the club.
- [19:55]
Joe Cole
I never knocked on his door. I never knocked on his door. He. I had. It was at a time when I was like, right, okay, frustrated young man. I'm playing, I'm playing for England, I'm, you know, we're winning titles, I'm a big part of it. And then I decided I wanted to leave. So I told my agent, how did.
- [20:16]
Damian
You come to that decision, because that's a big moment.
- [20:18]
Joe Cole
Again, it was around one of these times with Jose when we'd had a row, I said, right, put. Put transfer request in. So, all right, transfer request goes in. Right. So Dave, my agents rung me, are you sure? You know, because he was such a. Dave, Guy's great guy that, you know, you're playing for the team you love. You're really happy the managers left you out for a couple of weeks. Like, don't you think you should. No, no, no, I'm not having it. We'll leave him. Okay. All right, transfer requests going in. Right, then the phone rung and it was Dave saying, roman's coming to Cobham. He wants to see you. Roman never came to Cobham. So I was like, all right, yeah, no problem, Dave.
- [21:00]
Damian
Did that not unnerve you a little?
- [21:02]
Joe Cole
Well, you've got to front it, you know, you're from London. There's plenty of times when you've got a front things. So I was like, yeah, no problem, Dave. Nothing changes for my end. Like, I'm. I'm leaving. I'll, you know, blah, blah, blah. I must have something inside of me. Must have. Must have been. I was nervous and anyway, had a little office at the top. So as I've walked in, Eugene is Roman's guy. Come into. Roman will come. Walk into his. Walk into this, the office at Cobham, and he's sitting there behind a desk. He said, speak to me. I said, well. I said, well, Gaffinard, you know, the relationships run its course. You know, I think it's time he's listened. And he just said. He said, listen, Jose's too quick from. From the head to the mouth or the heart to the mouth. He said, you're staying at Chelsea, and just left it like that. Silence. Then I was like, oh, how long was that silence? Felt like years, mate. I was just like. And I just gone. Yeah, all right, gaffer. Yeah, I'm staying. You're right, I'm staying. And then I've got to get on the phone and come down to my agent and go, yeah, I'm staying. It's all sorted now. And, yeah, and listen, I don't think I ever really wanted to leave. It was just probably the first time in my Chelsea career that I just felt. I don't know why I did it. I never. I never want to. Even when I left the club, I didn't want to leave the club, but I quickly climbed down when, when, when. But, but you know what, that, you know, I Hardly ever see him at Cobham. I don't know whether he was passing through or something, but he, he felt the need to, to come and was.
- [22:34]
Damian
He quite an intimidating character?
- [22:35]
Joe Cole
No, listen, I, he was always great with me. I, I like he, he was very quiet, methodical, very would listen. I never had much of a relationship with him in that sense. Like whenever he, when he first come, you have to remember he's a man in his mid-30s and he's bought Chelsea Football Club. So he, early on he come into the dressing room after wins and he, you could, you know, he wanted to be part of it because there's nothing, there's no better place in the world when you've won a big game of football and you come back into the dressing room with victorious, with a sp. You know, I'm not talking like, you know, cup finals where the champagne and the party. So even just that feeling of like it's a glow. You've won a game of football, you've gone out there as a group, you fought hard, you're exhausted, blood, you know, pain. But. And I think he liked that moment. He come in and he was always around. I think what happened was as the years went on and obviously players had to be sold, players would want more new contracts. They needed to be a little bit more distance because, you know, one thing we are as footballers is like, we would leverage a relationship for an extra few quid, like. But, you know, so he's respectfully, I think he just sort of draw. But the early days when he used to come in, I'm sure if, if he ever did an interview, I think he looked like he really enjoyed, enjoyed it and he. Rightly so because it's, it's the best feeling in the world in a winning dressing room.
- [24:03]
Damian
And what about when you did leave Chelsea? You've already said you didn't want to.
- [24:06]
Joe Cole
No, I didn't want to. After the Champions League final in Moscow 2008, I had a really, I had a really good season. I had two years left on my contract. Got one player of the year that year and I just, I thought to myself, there'll be, there'll be a contract offer now. Great. Sign another five year deal and that'll probably be my time at Chelsea. I'd already been there for five years. No, yeah, five years or six years at that time and there wasn't a contract offer. But I think maybe because we'd lost the final by half inch of a penalty kick, I don't know. Started the new season under Scolari started well, but then I got my knee injury when they just come to the table and then they pulled back. Rightly so you just have some other massive. I literally done everything in one day. I was never the same player after that. Acl, pcl, mcl, just a lot like the whole. The surgeon said it's like a car accident, you know, so it was gone. So rightly so, they pulled back. But again, looking back now, they never contacted me. Then I got back from the injury, took me 11 months and I had about eight or nine months left on my contract. But again, like that little bit of petulance in me, I was like, well, where was you when I was injured? Do you know what I mean? I was like, I was like, hold on, let me just. And the negotiations never really got going from that and I got fit. We ended up. I ended up playing maybe 30, 40 games appearances that season, you know, played part of it, scored, you know, scored the important goal at the end of the season up at Old Trafford when we won the league. So I sort of, I wasn't back to my best, but I was in the swing of things. But I think there was partly my ego was bruised because I didn't, I thought to myself I should have got the contract offer 18 months ago and then they didn't offer it to me. So there was a little bit of that going on. Then there was a little bit of group of young players that were coming through. There was Kakuta and Bruma and Hutchison and Josh McEachren and these lads, I mean then they didn't go onto major careers, but at the time they were collection of young players and I think there was a move to push them into the squad, into the team. So I think a culmination of things. So spoke to Carlo, he wanted, he, he, he said he wanted to, to keep us, you know, which. That should be enough for you as a player. And then it just went too far and then the contract was withdrawn. Then after about 4, 5, 6 months to go to end of the season, I'm start thinking this might be my last six months. I never really wanted to go, but again, you know, if you know now what I know, then I'd have gone back to the table and taken maybe a cut price because I was happy, you know what I mean? I plan where I wanted.
- [26:58]
Damian
Why did they withdraw the offer when the manager said he wanted to keep you?
- [27:01]
Joe Cole
Well, that's, that's not my. I don't, I don't know why. I mean you remember Ballack was in the same picture situation. Deco was in the same situation where Belletti got Alex. I think I might be wrong. There was about five or six senior players who'd played a role in that year that I think they wanted to get rid, put the young players in who they really believed in. Turns out the young players were never good enough to play at Chelsea. They all went on their careers, different levels, but no one really at the.
- [27:30]
Damian
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Joe Cole
A risk taker?
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- [30:30]
Joe Cole
It's horrible. Yeah. But I think one thing you have to be very good at as a footballer, you have to be very good at, you know, putting things in a box. Do you know what I mean? Not.
- [30:41]
Damian
What's the secret to doing that?
- [30:42]
Joe Cole
What's the secret to doing that at the. Well, at the time. At the time, my. My. My wife was pregnant with my. With our first. First baby. So we were like, there was a lot going on in your. In your world. You know, you, you know, chaps like that, that sort of. That takes precedent over anything.
- [30:59]
Damian
Yeah.
- [31:00]
Joe Cole
And I just was like, right. And I secretly held out. I think I secretly thought, I want them to come, you know. You know, like when you're waiting, you know, when you're younger and you're waiting for a girl to ring you, you know, please, please call me. Please give. You know what I mean? And then. Yeah. And the call never came. I never came. So then I had to look elsewhere. But it hurt. It did hurt. And what. You know what really hurt? And I never, I'm not sentimental about things or anything like that, but what actually hurt was you've been at the club for seven years, you know, and given everything, like you won trophies. And I'm more. I'm very like, well, this. That should be enough. You know, I didn't want a big fanfare. But you know when they just put you in like the, the. All the players that they release from the academy in the list.
- [31:47]
Jake
Yeah.
- [31:48]
Joe Cole
Like Michael Ballack, you know, Don't. I think clubs are a lot better than that now. Do you know what I mean? There's a lot more like just a statement came out. Yeah. The following players will leave Chelsea will leave the club. Yeah.
- [31:57]
Damian
And you're just.
- [31:57]
Joe Cole
Yeah. Just part of. With four or five young kids who'd never kick the ball for the club.
- [32:01]
Jake
And a little bit early.
- [32:02]
Joe Cole
So that. Yeah, it was quite. Yeah, I'm not that. I thought that's a bit strong.
- [32:06]
Damian
Isn't that a great lesson in football for young people that you can be so central to a team. It can be your entire life. You can be the, a central part of the lives of all of the supporters, the fans in the football club. The minute that you are not valuable to that club or even in real life to that organization, it's over.
- [32:23]
Joe Cole
Do you know what? Right. That's exactly that. And I tell that to every young player at the time because I remember as a, as a young lad at West Ham, exactly the same things. It's the same when you're 16 and you're wrecking a kid's dream. A 29, 30 year old footballer who's lived his dream. You don't have to. But that was exactly like that. 15, 16. Thanks. Dead your boots. Good luck on your career. So like football is very much like that. If anything now when I'm. When I'm talking about and thinking about that, that's actually more honest. That's the truth. When you're done, you're done. Don't matter who you are. But. But brushing it up with a walk of honor and a big statement and a big YouTube video of thank you. Moving on. It's. It's nice. But ultimately the truth is. It's not real. It's not real. Ultimately the truth is you're a stock and a share at a football club. You have a val value. It did hurt me a little bit because Chelsea. But ultimately you're right, that's just the truth. It ain't nobody's fault. I can't hold no malice towards anyone at the club. That would be childish. Do you know what I mean? That's just how it is. If anything, I actually prefer that to all of the flowers and all that. Yeah.
- [33:32]
Damian
You know, I remember when Rio Ferdinand joined bt when you were. For a long time. I remember his second or third game as a pundit was at Old Trafford.
- [33:40]
Joe Cole
Yeah.
- [33:41]
Damian
And you will have been in this position as well. There's a period, right, when you work with ex players where now you probably feel like a Football pundit, right. When you first joined, you would have felt like a footballer still. And there's this slow transition where you realize you're not a footballer, you're a pundit. And then there's a bit of freedom when you finally get to that place. Right. He was very much still a footballer who was doing a punditry job. So he liked, you know, a bit of Old Trafford where you walk past the fans and they're all there and they're all screaming, Rio. And he's signing autographs and so he's thousand people probably there, isn't there? And he signs his autograph. It's the same entrance the players take when they arrive on the coach. But you're normally after them. So they've gone in and he walks up to the thing and there's me and him and I think, Steve McManaman, maybe we get to the door, show your passes. Where's your pass?
- [34:31]
Joe Cole
He says to Rio Ferdinand. Yeah, Rio's like, sorry.
- [34:34]
Damian
And the guy's like, media pass. And in Rio's head, he's like, a media pass. What are you talking about? I'm a Manchester United legend and I remember seeing his face and thinking, there's the realization that that entire life you've lived for 20 years is done and carries very little value in this new world.
- [34:55]
Joe Cole
Very true. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You've nailed it. That's exactly what it's like, even to the point where you forget yourself, you know, and you're starting to maybe go back to. Into the dressing room. You're mad. Like, you can't come in here, mate. It's right. It's right. And you are that as a footballer. That's okay. That's okay. I going back to the younger players, I think they need to handle the young in the academies. They do a lot better job now at aftercare and things like that because they're babies. Like, we need to look after them and make sure that they understand. But for grown up, for grown adults, I think it's okay to go, thank you for your service. I used to find that off your.
- [35:31]
Damian
Pot, you'd be with these ex players and they would be constantly. Their eyes would be darting while you're getting ready to go on air. And they're basically waiting for their former manager.
- [35:39]
Joe Cole
Yeah.
- [35:39]
Damian
And they're desperate to be spotted by their manager. And then when the game is over, they'd be like, I might just go and see the guys for fun. And they want to go in the dress or they want to sort of be around and they can't. They really find it difficult to accept.
- [35:51]
Joe Cole
It's difficult, mate. It's difficult. It's very, very difficult.
- [35:55]
Damian
Steven Gerrard described the England team that you would have played in, his egotistical losers. When he said that. Did you recognize that?
- [36:04]
Joe Cole
I know where Stevie's coming from. Egotistical. Very, very fair. Very, very fair. I think losers. It's hard for me to label Steven Gerrard, Frank Lampard, Wayne Rooney. It's hard for Ashley Cole. Like everyone who gets to play for England, you're a winner. But as a group, we didn't have enough. Like, we didn't have enough of all of the ingredients you need. And I know we had enough talent to do it because I've played with all of the great players from the other club countries and I know what Steven Gerrard's capable of. And Frank Lampard and Rooney, I know we had the players, but there was. There's a smidgen of this and a touch of that and a bit of this over there, which we was missing. So if he wants to call that. I'm not going to argue with Stevie if he wants to say that.
- [36:55]
Damian
How did the egotistical side manifest itself?
- [36:58]
Joe Cole
Club rivalries. Liverpool, Manchester United and then later Chelsea, it was the same. Spain was Barcelona, Real Madrid, and they went on to win great things. And I look at. I look at them with envy, really, like how they managed to do it. I don't know what they did, but that would be a great conversation to notice, maybe get someone like Pepe Raina on who's a good English speaker and say, what was you? How did you do that?
- [37:23]
Jake
Because I know Graham Hunter wrote about it, didn't he, at the time, where he said that he went back, like to the younger age groups and. But they actually started doing camps where it was about bonding, about getting to know each other. So they didn't take it for granted.
- [37:39]
Joe Cole
Which is exactly what the FA have done over the last 15 years. And now what we had, all of them divides just ain't there. It's just not there anymore. Do you know what I mean? Because you're right, it's probably a system. It was probably a systematic thing that wasn't taken care of. If I could have a time machine now and I could be an England manage that team, forget the tactics, don't worry about all of that. We would deal with. That's no problem. From the moment we walk in the door, you're bringing them together. Ownership, you know, like, it's almost like.
- [38:12]
Damian
Could they have done it, though? Like, could you have got Rio Ferdinand and Frank Lampard sitting next to each other for a dinner in that ferocious, intense period with Steven Gerrard opposite them?
- [38:23]
Joe Cole
I think if you. I don't think there was enough attempted, like, whether, like, Sven or Steve, I can't say how they didn't see it. Does that make sense? Like, it was so clear in, like, the dynamics of the group. If you've got any bit kind of emotional intelligence now, it's like you'd recognize it. Michael Carrick was my power. West Ham. We come through the ranks together. As soon as he went to United, it was like no one. We just stopped talking to each other. Do you know what I mean? We're still mates now. I see him, I don't. Mates now. We don't speak as. But if I saw him now, it'd be great to see him. But he's just like, all right, okay, you're there. You're on that side of the wall now. And then it was. Just talked to him when I was with England, but there was no, all right, mate, you know, been there at his house. But I know his mum and dad, lovely people, you know, And I still love Michael, but it was like a weird. I don't know. I don't know. We both just sensed it. Like, we got better talking to each other now. I don't know. Weird.
- [39:19]
Jake
Did you fall out of love with football last Right then?
- [39:21]
Joe Cole
No. No. Do you know what? Tony Cotti, when I saw him the other day, I mentioned it to him. He said something to me and it's funny, people come into your life and you. And they give you advice and it stuck. I don't know why it stuck with me. Most times people talk to me and I've done. I'm not listening. I'm not. I'm away with the fairies. But he looked at me and he said. He must have said. It was such conviction. He said, as a young player, so make sure you enjoy it, son, because it goes like that. And I did. I genuinely. Even in the darkest days, the injuries days when I wasn't in the team form, dipping at the back end of my career, do you know what I was. I had a little moment with myself before I went out and gone, right, you could be in a white van now. Do you know what I mean? You know, stuck in traffic or, you know, doing a bit of scaffolding or something like, nothing. There's nothing wrong with them jobs. Yeah, but, you know, you could be doing anything. But you're a footballer, even an engine. I remind myself of that, you know, whenever I felt myself going a little bit like, you know, bit much, bit cold out or you know what I mean? But listen, and. And I had a beautiful way to end my career because instead of like dropping down the leagues out here, I ended up playing for two and a half years in Tampa which was like. Which was like. Was like a foot footballing sort of come down like a Met. Like how you would get someone off of a methadone. Methadone footballing methadone. That's the word I was looking for. Where you're like. It was like I was still a professional footballer but I'd be on the beach, you know, with the family, the sun would be out, no pressure, but I still got that competitive juice. And I love. And I said. I don't know if I said it in the book but listen. Blessed to play at the very, very top of the game. But that for terms of happiness with my family, that was like the. That was the most happiest time of my career. Yeah.
- [41:11]
Damian
Was it?
- [41:12]
Joe Cole
Yeah. Yeah. And if. And honestly some games will be playing. I scored a goal away to Toronto B and we're celebrating in front of a bunch of fir trees. There was about 300 people. There's no one that was like playing on an Astroturf. Not every. Sometimes you play in front of 25.00 because when you know the ends in sight, did you cherish it a little bit more? And I was like, you know, and the kids were there with us. So yeah, it was. It was brilliant.
- [41:39]
Damian
I think that's actually really important because. And I can see you get emotional thinking about it, don't you?
- [41:44]
Joe Cole
Yeah.
- [41:45]
Damian
Like it's. It's not healthy to be someone that no longer has. Has any self worth because all your self worth came from scoring goals like you scored against Man United and being lauded and celebrated and earning 150 grand a week and picking up trophies. Like if that's where your joy comes from, there's going to be a real serious part of your life because you're not going to do that for 50 years of your life if you're lucky to live to 85.
- [42:10]
Joe Cole
It's the only bad thing about being a footballer is that it's finite. It's like. And I think all footballers when the. I feel for people like Rio who stopped. Bang. Premier League stopped or Steven Gerrard stopped. Like I said, I had that little come down Owen Hargreaves injury. Yeah.
- [42:30]
Damian
And he went from scoring A penalty against you guys in a Champions League final.
- [42:35]
Joe Cole
Yeah.
- [42:36]
Damian
Within 12 months, he's out of contract.
- [42:39]
Joe Cole
Yeah. And you sort of. You sort of. You're right, you cannot. I say this to my boys who want to play football, they want to be football. Say, you cannot put your identity on you as being a footballer, because that's just a small part. It's not part of your life. And when. When the truth comes to it, you know. You know, it's not even a big part of your life, you know, really and truly, you've got your. Your wife, your children, your parents, then your friends, you know, then people that really mean. And then the football, it's just. It's just the icing on the cake. But it's hard to let go of that because, like you said, the highs are so high. Scoring a winning goal in the last minute, lifting a trophy, we are lucky to do it. So. So coming away from football, you've got to find a way to. To sort of, you know, square it up with yourself and move on to the next thing. My. I sort of my career, I put sort of knee injury before and after. Because after the knee injury, with hindsight, I was never quite the same player again. I kept breaking down with injuries, had some good seasons, went out to France and had a good season and moments here and there, but I was never consistent. I couldn't stay fit for long enough. And I was one. I went around the world trying to find a solution. I went to the best physios, osteopaths, chiropractors. I looked at everything, couldn't quite find what it was. And it was frustrating because I was. There's nothing worse than going on a football pitch and not being able to do what you could do before, what people expect you to do. Nobody. Nobody thinks that. So that was the second I didn't stop trying, looking, you know, I mean, I never find. I never found it. And then you have to come to the point where you go, right, okay, maybe that was just. That's the road that I've had to go on was this knee injury was. Come bang, not the same player again. So I'm actually as proud of the second half of my career because I've seen players give up and it's ugly. Do you know what I mean? It's really ugly. Do you know what I mean? I'm like, you could probably still play, but the fear of putting yourself out there and not. There's something in that, of going out. Like when I played at Tampa, people would think what are you doing at Tampa? Do you know what I mean? Like, what are you doing? Well, I like football. I like competing. You know, lifestyle's great, but, you know, and sometimes, especially towards the last season, I was like. I was like a slug on crutches. I couldn't move. I was like, I couldn't get nowhere. And it was horrible. But, you know, I had to. I thought, so I'm getting to the end of the road here. I'm going to get to the season and I'm going to give it my all. Do you know what I mean? So I think you need to just have. There's a lesson learned in there, life lesson, but there's something about ego in.
- [45:29]
Jake
It that gets in the way of that people's ego of. I want you to remember me being the person before the knee injury. So how did you learn to sort of bury that?
- [45:39]
Joe Cole
I don't know. I don't know, actually, because we all, like, people come up telling us as footballers, I loved you as a footballer, I loved you done that or this goal. That's all great. And ultimately, I played over 700 games. People really remember me for two moments. It's like the goal against Sweden at the World cup and the goal against United to win the league. So once you work out, like, it's not like, it's great when people say nice things to you and it's wonderful to be lauded, but ultimately, you know, the only people's opinions that matter is your kids, your wife, your family. And, you know, you don't need them to lord me, just need to sometimes just need the kids to leave me alone a little bit at times. And you know what I mean, Give me half hour to watch the football or something and just. Do you know what I mean? So you take your identity. I think it's important for you need to make sure that's if them sort of relationships are going well, anything else is a bonus, really, because it's fleeting, it's gone. Do you know what I mean? So genuinely, if people come up to me now and they say something nice like that, I say, I try and go, do you know what? Thanks, mate. I really appreciate that. If I've got time and then see where the conversation goes, or it might not go anywhere because he said, you're blessed to have to have that.
- [46:58]
Damian
And we should just mention one of those goals. I'd love to talk about the goal against Man United. You start the book actually talking about that goal. And one thing that you write about, which I had no idea you say every time you played football there was music playing in your head.
- [47:13]
Joe Cole
Yeah, yeah. Honestly, Honestly. Yeah, yeah. I don't know where it started. Good music, I might add. It was usually like Oasis or a Weller. Not all the time, Jake. It was when I was playing. Well, I. I was worried about it at some point. Why am I. Music playing in my head should be concentrating. Where should I be? Like, I'll be singing along to the song in my. Not loud, loud in my head, Right. And I went to see a sports psychologist and he was like, nice. It's you. You're in, you're. You're flowing, you're like. You know, you're in your zone. Yeah. So, yeah, the worst is when it's not a great song you don't like. Yeah, there was, actually.
- [47:54]
Jake
And would that correlate with form? So it'd be a good song when you're playing.
- [47:58]
Joe Cole
No, no, no, no, no. It was just. It would like. I knew if I. If. If the music was going, then the internal voices wasn't playing. Do you know what I mean? They weren't like, should have got that pass right, or it's getting the better of you. You need to do more. Do you know what I mean? Or manager. If I don't play well, the manager. All of that internal monologue would be off. The song would be playing. Life would be good playing well. WHISTLE BLOWS End of the game, you've played well and you're gone. Do you know what I mean? So just learn to live with it.
- [48:29]
Damian
And would the music switch off when the whistle went at the end of a match?
- [48:32]
Joe Cole
Yeah, yeah. Because then life would start. She was like, well, there must be everyone who does that. But no, it doesn't look like.
- [48:38]
Damian
Have you ever met another footballer who had music?
- [48:40]
Joe Cole
Never told another footballer because I don't open up to. I don't go, right, we have. Did you know when you played football, did you have to think I'm. It might think I'm mad.
- [48:48]
Damian
So was music playing in your head the day you scored arguably your most famous goal for Chelsea?
- [48:54]
Joe Cole
Yeah, it would have been that day. Because anytime people saw me and I was playing well, there was probably some kind of music in my head at that time.
- [49:01]
Damian
What do you remember of that goal?
- [49:04]
Joe Cole
What do I remember that goal? The only thing I remember, that goal was lifting it up above Van der Saar. The bit before it where I beat two or three players in that short period, that was. That was instinct. That was like. Because that was really what I was good at, You Know, I mean, tight areas, close control, beating players and everything. Then the artists sort of just. I wasn't, I wasn't a great finish. It wasn't like a Michael Owen or anything. So the only thing I remember is like, all of a sudden I've done something. Then I was in front of Andersar. Then you have to. Then you have to control your breathing. And then I remember him just. He just sort of give me an A nod and I thought, I'm just going to lift it to the near post. And then. Then the world, the colors, you know, I mean, run to the corner. I should always run to that corner. Down a wire, which, where. But there, when you score during, you're in the mix and then you're. Then that feeling of scoring a goal, then the players are on you and then, yes, it's great. And just. And then all of a sudden you're back and you start again. It was great, great data. Yeah.
- [50:14]
Jake
But when I think about that goal and the way you've described it, it's like you managed to slow time down.
- [50:19]
Joe Cole
Yeah. Yeah. How did you do that in that time? You know, I was a very unique footballer in England. There wasn't many, like, played like me, you know, I'm not saying, you know, great players or players better than me, but the way I played was very unique. And because I. As a kid, As a kid, because my dad wasn't a big football person, I would play, I played by myself. And I was quite shy and quite lones, quite a loner as a. I could mix, I was. But I was. I'd happy my own company and I used to often just play and just be trying to, you know, ball mastery, they call it now. But I was up against the wall, up against the wall and I'd be like. I'd be lost for hours. Time would go and I just. I wouldn't try and do any. No one told me you do a Cruyff turn like this or you do it like this. I sort of worked it out myself. So the first bit was just street football, just. And then like there'd be seven or, you know, when you're young, seven or eight kids, and then you. I'm doing the same thing, but I'm just in my own world playing football. And yeah, that was all natural. The other side of the game, I had to learn the tactical side and as you go into it. But the beauty of it was just. Just trying to manipulate the ball and learning.
- [51:33]
Damian
And in those tight moments, because my boy loves playing football every Sunday morning for the under 11s.
- [51:39]
Joe Cole
Yeah.
- [51:39]
Damian
And when he's got the ball in a tight space, his head just goes to the ball and he's like trying to. He doesn't have what you would have had at that age. Right. So when you were playing and it was a tight moment like that, three or four United players around you, the ball to deal with the crowd, the noise, the song in your head. What are you looking at? Are you looking at the ball or are you looking for feet trying to get the ball off you?
- [52:02]
Joe Cole
Honestly, I don't know. I just, like I said, I've got two, two ways when I know when I'm playing well. The music was playing and I wasn't thinking, when I wasn't playing well, I'd be like, oh, where is everyone? Oh, the ball's gone. Do you know what I mean? So you sort of get into that flow state. But. And I've got a theory. I think people like Messi, the real, real greats, them type of modric, them type of players, I think they are able to just access whatever that was, what I could do at moments and things like that. They could access it for like longer periods of time and that's why they're the best.
- [52:39]
Jake
Like, could you. So if you were having a bad game where you, where that voice is talking about, you need to chat back here. Joe, could you put a song in your head and change the game?
- [52:48]
Joe Cole
No, I tried, yeah. I didn't go. I didn't go out there going, right, switch the song on, let's go and play now. I didn't do that. I tried. It didn't work. I tried using self talk to. To get, to get it going sometimes, but it's often I didn't. I never found the secret to doing it consistently. Do you know what I mean? I just know that how it felt when I was. When I was playing really well and then when I wasn't and I searched, you know, I work with sports psychologists and things like that, and I just think there's certain players that have access to it.
- [53:25]
Damian
Your career was this mix of great creativity and flair as a footballer, with this incredible resilience to be able to deal with the setbacks, the injuries, the kind of horrible hard management that you got from someone like Jose Mourinho. And I just wonder, when you take a look back at your upbringing with your family, with your parents, with West Ham, where do you think your resilience was built as a young guy?
- [53:49]
Joe Cole
Oh, gosh, resilience. Just the values you Know, I think again going back to Sam who I think wrote the book beautifully and we had a lovely day at the start he said, well, I need to know where you come from. So I'm from Camden Town, North London. Now Camden for people who listens is like in the 90s was like the epicenter for music and it was like cool and you had Primrose Hill and it. But it was a really, really rough part of, you know, we rough estate and everything. And my mum, my mum sue and my dad George, you know, they brought me up with values, you know. You know, I was very aware that there was kids on the estate who didn't have a nice warm house to go to, food on the table and a loving home. So I was very aware of how lucky I was and, but also very aware that, you know, life can be tough because I've seen it with other people, not with me. Growing up, like I said, was full of love and everything, but the values I think of being kind of, I think is, was one of the things that was brought up to do. You know, if you, if you're not. Nothing nice to say, you know, you don't say nothing. But also my dad had a very, very difficult relationship with authority because of his upbringing. So when I think about myself as a player, you know, I was, I wasn't a conformist. I always try and do things differently all the time. But, and like that comes from a dad, like, whereas he was a lot more hot headed than me. I'm a mum, I'm quite calm and measured. He was volatile but I took that from him like, no, you know, you can do this.
- [55:34]
Damian
And when would you have seen that as a kid?
- [55:37]
Joe Cole
Well, you know, obviously I said I write about in a book. You know, my dad was a massive part of my life. You know, he was ducker and diver. You know, he come from a big family. You know, he left school at 12 and 13, had to, you know, you know, he got in trouble with the law, you know, a few times and you know, he went inside when I was young, when I was really young and then again when I was 11 to 13 and so my mom had to, you know, step up and, and you know, be strong and, and really sort of keep it together, you know. And as, as the oldest of the kids, I was the one that would, you know, I felt that pressure as well a little bit with. But ultimately he's so he had this, he was, he was, he was a tough man, he was a hard man, but never with, with. He he, he couldn't stand bullies. Do you know what I mean? Which is he, he. He was, he was a protector of everyone. You know, if ever there was a trouble, problem on the estate with anything, dad would take care of it. And he couldn't stand bullies. And he, and, and so he's. We had this kindness about him. Jake, he was like. He went and he didn't even like football. Like, he couldn't believe he had a son who played 5, 6, 700 games. And he went to. He went all over the world to watch me. Still to this day when I'm. If I go up to Everton, for instance, because what I used to do at games, if there's any. He said, if there's any spare tickets before the game, which there always was, he said, put them in the envelope, bang, give him to my dad. And he, he'd go around Everton or someone and he'd be like, there'd be a group of kids will say, they're lads. They got us some tickets for the game today. Do you know what I mean? He done this at every ground. Or a stewards. Or the stewards. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So still to this day, people come up to me and go, oh, your dad got seven tickets for the first. My first ever game. Or I could bring my son because. Do you know what I mean? So he had the real kindness to him, but he was very. He couldn't because of his rushings with the law. And he was, you know, he went to Ballstore and all that. He always questioned authority, lived away from the norm. Do you know what I mean? So, and that fed into my vision of football. Like, I didn't all of a sudden go to play for England when I went to England 15s and they're telling me, you play like this, this, this. Most of the kids were like, oh, yeah, we play like that. And I was like, hold on, lads, might be better to do it this way. Got me in a lot of trouble with the coaches. So I think the combination of my mom's kindness, his kindness, that sort of didn't really enjoy authority. Yeah, most of the time I've got a mixture of them.
- [58:11]
Jake
Did you ever go and see him in prison?
- [58:13]
Joe Cole
Yeah. As a kid? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [58:15]
Jake
And the reason I ask is we had the comedian John Bishop on who described a similar experience. And he said he found it really hard to see the lack of respect that his dad and his mum who went to visit him was treated with when he went inside. I'm interested in how it affected you.
- [58:36]
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- [59:11]
Joe Cole
The things I remember was we went, I can't remember where he was but we went with my mom. You're excited to see your dad, you know what I mean? And there was a fantastic little calf next to the prison that had done amazing milkshakes. So it was always a treat to go because we had these good milkshakes before. But just like going in, it's a weird experience, you know what I mean? And by the way, it was nothing like, you know, he's, he was nothing, he's nothing like in like a huge criminal. He just, you know, where we're from you can get in trouble with the law like that. And it was very much how it was, you know, I don't condone anything that happened but going to see him, we just wanted to see your dad, you know what I mean? And it was just. And he was always, I think when he was always jolly. So it was always good to see him, do you know what I mean? I've spoke to other people about it and they didn't like it. I always found it quite. Mum was very good. That's why my mum's amazing. She sort of protected us from all of it. The one thing I do remember about it is when, when he went inside, I remember going to bed of a night, she'd put the ornaments up on the windows. I was like, why are you doing that? So if someone, you know, because in that part of the world, someone trying to get in, dad's not there. So it was the first time I thought to myself, you know, obviously, obviously couldn't afford a burglar alarm, do you know what I mean? But it was the first time I thought, oh, I felt vulnerable. So my mum done a great job and everyone rallied round and then he come out and, you know, he was a ducker and diver and he'd buy and sell stuff and everything. Mum said, listen, you got us, you know, your son's going to be a footballer now. You can't embarrass him. He would never embarrass me. But he sort of walked away from that life. That's all he had, you know what I mean, and then him and mum went all around the world watching me play football. So that's. It was a good trade off. But a lot of who I am as a person is down to him. Yeah.
- [61:08]
Damian
And that's quite special, isn't it, as well that, you know, your dad had a way of living and a certain upbringing and moved in certain circles and as soon as there was a chance for Joe to make a mark as a man himself, your dad changed his own life.
- [61:21]
Joe Cole
And it was hard. It was hard for him because it's all. It was, all he ever knew.
- [61:24]
Jake
Yeah.
- [61:25]
Joe Cole
Really. Do you know what I mean? When you're ducking, when, when you're, you know, we, we had some. Sometimes when we was. When we was kids, we had, we had. We had a fruit and vegetable. So I'd be. Mum and dad would work on the fruit and vegetable and, you know, I'd go on the Saturday and do the Saturday boy stuff and they would have like really good moments and then sometimes wouldn't have that and you wouldn't have a lot. But the thing with my daddy was so generous and he'd, you know, so for safer. There was a couple of kids on our estate who didn't have a lot and we knew that their mum and dad, my dad weren't there. Mum was maybe drinking too much and then mum would make sure that they. Whenever there was dinner and they were there, they'd have dinner at our house. Do you know what I mean? And that sort of stuck with me growing up, that we're in that environment you really like. And I think the world needs a little bit more like looking after each other, do you know what I mean? And he sort of. He looked after a lot of people, my dad, do you know what I mean? And like I said, it was very difficult to walk away from, from what he was doing, but he did it.
- [62:28]
Jake
But there's a bit in the book where, like, I love hearing more about your dad, where your dad goes into the world of football to look after you. You know when you sign for Chelsea?
- [62:38]
Joe Cole
Yeah.
- [62:39]
Jake
To promise you the number 10 shirt.
- [62:41]
Joe Cole
Oh, God, yeah.
- [62:41]
Damian
What happened?
- [62:42]
Joe Cole
I could cyber. Chelsea agreed to deal. What shirt do you want? Number 10, please. A dream of mine to play number 10. And. Yeah, no problem. But on the same day they signed Veron. So Varon's the big star, Argentina's number 10 before Messi contract comes out. And all of a sudden you've got to wear number 20 because we've given a 10 to Veron and my dad's like, no, we don't do that. No, you're gonna. We're going.
- [63:11]
Jake
And who's he negotiating with? Like pizza Kenya?
- [63:13]
Joe Cole
No, it was Trevor Birch at the time. Lovely man, Trevor Birch. My dad. My agent Dave. And I'm like, dad, like, don't, don't, don't. But he was like, no, no, listen. You don't go into a deal with someone because in his world, everything's done on a handshake and use your word. And it's like they've said that you wearing a number 10. You're wearing. You're going to wear the number 10. So that we're going. So I'm like, oh, my God, my deal to Chelsea is going to fall through here over this number. And I'm like, dad, I don't mind. I wear anything. I wear 110. It don't matter. He was very principled with that. And then phone calls were made. Veron was. Had to be called through an agent. Ron was like, yeah, no problem. I've got. I got a number 10. And all was well and good. But because he Left school at 12 Fein. He couldn't read them right. But he would remember everything. It was a night. Like, it was an. It was a night. He'd remember every conversation. He'd be like, if you, if you said something a year ago. Oh, no, no, you said that there. And then you go. He had a different. I think not being able to read or write gives you. You think about how much when you walk into a room, you read stuff, don't you? Without realizing it. Because he's never able to do that. He. He operates on a different. So he remembered everything and he just. He was on him. And I was like, looking back, he's right, right. You're going to go into a deal with someone. If you say something, you're going to do something, you do it. So he had this. These principles. The biggest joy I get was being able to. To buy me mum and dad a house and, and my, my sister and my brother. Once I've done that and everything was sorted and I, like I said, I'm just lucky. Just people around me, like my immediate family, they don't. They don't. You know, I look after everyone, but they don't want nothing. There's no that. My, you know, my brother's got a great job. He's worked very hard. My sister's, you know, she's got four kids and she's. She's a brilliant mom and she's, you know, she's got her own life. My, My mom is like, you know, it's hard work to go and buy me, take me mom out for dinner. She still wants to get the, the bill. I'm like, come on, Mom. So I'm just very, very lucky. And I've been. And my mates as well. I've still got my same pals from, from the estate and we've had some great times, great holidays and looked after them nights out and everything. But they very take a lot of pride in not living off me, not wanting from me.
- [65:31]
Damian
Yeah.
- [65:31]
Joe Cole
Do you know what I mean? It's very. And I again, just really, really lucky. Yeah.
- [65:36]
Damian
It's been such an interesting conversation. We started talking about a very important man in your life, Jose Mourinho.
- [65:41]
Joe Cole
Yeah.
- [65:41]
Damian
Ended it talking about arguably an even more important man in your life.
- [65:44]
Joe Cole
Yeah.
- [65:45]
Damian
George Cole. Did you get a chance to, to tell your dad what he had done for you?
- [65:50]
Joe Cole
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, like.
- [65:54]
Jake
Yeah.
- [66:02]
Joe Cole
Yeah. Cuz like, so when he, when he got not well, I was, I was in America and he was like, it's like, well, I'm coming home. He said, no, you, you play, you know, you do, you play football, do your stuff. And. But he's in hospital for like 10 months before he had lung cancer. Listen, he was, it was.
- [66:21]
Sleep Number Advertiser
He.
- [66:21]
Joe Cole
Listen, he couldn't tell him every bad vice you could have. He had it smoking, drinking. But you know, we try, you know, Carly, we sourced him the best doctors and it was in, in St. John's Wood around there. So anyway, this room, it's a battery, a beautiful room at a balcony overlooking Lord's cricket ground. And he got the best care and it was open for, it was open for, like, you know, friends would come and it was really quite a joyous occasion. Do you know what I mean? So it was like. And, and you. Do you realize, you know, lots of people, lots of, you know, it was constantly busy, the hospital. People must have been beside themselves because it was. There was three or four people in that room because. Just wanted to be part of it. And I, I wrote a letter because we, we. You find it difficult to talk. So I feel really blessed that you could know when you leave this earth, everything that needed to be said was said. Do you know what I mean? And that was, that was really, really, you know, that was amazing.
- [67:23]
Damian
And what was it you wanted to tell him?
- [67:26]
Joe Cole
Just, you know, just, just how lucky I was to have him as a dad. How much he, you know, you know, how, how much he affected me. You Know, because he was, he was my, my stepfather and I never once felt that I was anything different. And, you know, I know he give up a lot of his life to be a football and we had a great time and imagine. I just think all the poor people out there don't have a chance to say that to their loved ones. You know what I mean? So, yeah, really, really, really blessed. And I think when I was writing the book and you're piecing it all together, you're sort of like you thinking I'm like my mum like that, I'm like my dad like that. And you really. So all your success as a, as a person, in whatever you do is always, is always, you know, your mum, your dad, your friends, your circle, it all comes down to, to, to that.
- [68:25]
Damian
So nice. Sounds like a special guy. And I think as a. All three of us are parents. It's like when he's not your biological dad, it almost feels. It comes even more from a place of love because, you know, like, you feel like an unconditional love for your kids the minute they're born, you know, you weren't his biological son, but the love he obviously gave you was no different to the love that you, me or Damien would give to our kids.
- [68:49]
Joe Cole
Yeah, my brother and sister. And, you know, it's tricky, you know, I've got friends who've got married and then they are the stepdads, you know, and, and he actually said to me, like I took a leaf off that, you know, your dad done it, you know what I mean? Because it's a difficult, it's a difficult role to play that. And I'm just. You think to yourself, you're blessed to have, you know, both parents in your life, you know what I mean? And for as long as you did. And he, you know, when he find that, when he went, you know, it was a good life, well lived, is when you see a funeral and your people can't get into church. Do you know what I mean?
- [69:29]
Jake
And what aspects of your dad dc playing out in you as a dad?
- [69:34]
Joe Cole
I think like the sort of, the sort of, the, the kindness. Because like I said, he didn't even know I was a good footballer because he didn't until I was 11. But like, he was always, he was always, he was always present. Like the estate we lived on, our house was the hub of the estate because dad was the only one who had any few quid. So we had like the, the Argos snooker table, we had loads of tennis rackets, loads of footballs. And there's a big green outside, so there's always 15, 20 kids that would come. And our house was the hubness and the center. And when he ever had any money from the markets or something coming, and he'd always make sure that all of the kids got an ice cream or. Do you know what I mean? And I've always, I've always took that into like, you know, wherever you with your kids is, my kids, one of the reasons for writing the book is because my kids are, they're in a very different world to what I come from and they're very lucky and I'd like them to, to sort of, to understand it. But he sort of, he just very, very kind and made sure everyone was looked after, do you know what I mean? So I try to, I try to bring that into me. But also I quite like it when my kids come to me and they say, dad, we done philosophy, say in school and the teacher was saying this, this, this, and, and I don't agree with that. And I was going, no, I agree with you, mate. I could go and tell the teacher, do you know what I mean? And they come back next, they go, dad, Mr. So and so wasn't really happy with that, do you know what I mean? I'm like, well, it's right, mate. And so, you know, so I try to make sure that they have that little bit of resistance in them, do you know what I mean? Because I think that's important.
- [71:11]
Damian
And can we just let people know that. I remember when we worked together and you raised a huge amount of money for the NHS during COVID you're writing this book and not a single penny of it is going to end up in your bank account because again, you're donating it to charity. And I think when we sit here and we talk about George's legacy, the messages that he was giving you as a seven, eight, nine, year old boy are being played out now in the fact that this book is going to help change the lives of other people through charity. So how about that for a legacy, mate?
- [71:38]
Joe Cole
Brilliant.
- [71:38]
Jake
Who is it for? Who's.
- [71:40]
Joe Cole
There's, there's, there's two. So going back to what I said about earlier about living on the estate and realizing that I was like, really lucky. Some kids weren't. I remember this one kid, this kid I was telling you about, he's come around the house and have dinner because he never, he couldn't get in his house, he needed his keys and there was a window open and we jumped in the Window because we need to get in his house. His mum was clearly. She'd had a drink and like, she was on. And I went in the house. There was no. I remember. I remember thinking there was no food. There was no food in the fridge and. And you can see that the lad like embarrassed but keys. We went out, went to play football and then I told my mum and dad and this kid was a really good footballer. Right. He. I won't say he was at a club, I wouldn't say. I don't want people guessing or anything and. But he had a professional career. No, he didn't play. Right. He didn't play, no, but he. Football was his solace, like for most of us, like. And. And we used to go to the youth club and he used to always be in the youth club because he couldn't be at home. I would pop in the youth club and. But what I found out you like youth clubs have been when after we've done the NHS stuff, we started working with a charity called Onside which does charity youth clubs in underprivileged areas. Yeah, youth know. So basically I went. I went to one of these places and I was blown away by, you know, they do the arts in there, they keep kids off the street. There's a. There's some food for the kids. The football, the sports, obviously a big part of it, but it's all charity run. The government have stopped funding it, which I know was for this lad in particular and a lot of the kids. The youth club was the thing that the fulcrum of. Of the area and kept people out of trouble. They're not there, they're just not there no more. And then. And we're all moaning about all these kids who are misguided going off doing bad stuff in London, crime rising there. It's babies doing it, you know, it's children doing it and there's not enough funding for it. So Onside do a great job of. In these areas, getting these kids and giving them a pathway, giving them a way of life. That's one of the charities and another one is for acquaintance. A friend of mine, he. This is. This. This touched my heart.
- [73:51]
Jake
He.
- [73:52]
Joe Cole
He lost his. His child to. He wasn't well when he was at Great Ormond street and is at the time I was playing at his golf course and he was telling me about it and unfortunately child passed away but he said he got to. He was well to do so he can look after his family around it and obviously that. That takes over your whole Life, if that happens to anyone's life, nothing else matters. But he was talking to families who had kids in Great Ormond street who were sick. Like, you know, and the prognosis weren't good and the support from the government weren't there. You know, and then you've got to think about the dad's got to work a job, you know, you might have siblings that need. There wasn't enough support around the family. So he's trying to, it's called Hughes Law and he's, he's, he's helping, he's trying to change the law to make the government more, if you listen, we talk about government spending, you know, where it's going and things like that. But for families who've had a, literally a bomb grown up in their life and one of their children not well, that's straight where there could be nobody who votes against, look after these people so they can, you know, they got food on the table, the other kids are taking care of all of these type of things. It was inspiring to see him fighting the cause for these other families. So a little bit's going there and a little bit today because I think it's two very, very organic, you know, things that I can, sorry, I can picture. And so, yeah, yeah, I raise a few kids.
- [75:21]
Damian
I love that. I love that.
- [75:22]
Joe Cole
Yeah.
- [75:22]
Damian
Have you got enough energy left for a few quick fire questions?
- [75:25]
Joe Cole
Crack on.
- [75:29]
Damian
The three most important non negotiable behaviors for us to live a high performance life. What are the three behaviors that you think really matter?
- [75:37]
Joe Cole
Passion. You can't do anything without. Without passion. Yep. You need to have a clear, clear vision of what you got to believe it, like genuinely really not believe it in your gut. Not just like affirmations. You got to believe that. And the third thing I would say is don't quit. Do you know what I mean? Because like, like my second, second half of my career, I never got back to being the player I was, but I didn't quit. Now that is, like I said, I'm as proud of that as any of the medals and the trophies I've won. Do you know what I mean? So I think there's something to be grabbed in that and that's something you can control.
- [76:16]
Jake
What advice would you give a 15 year old Joe?
- [76:19]
Joe Cole
A 15 year old Joe? I got told you got great advice, didn't I, from Tony Cotti about enjoying it. Trust your instincts. Trust your instincts. Meditation. And my people might not associate me with that, but that's helped, that's helped me Like I said, that's helped me a lot with. Again, it started at the back end of my career. And the recovery, just. Just the recovery rates without all of the other stuff that comes with it. For your body as an athlete, I think it's pretty commonplace now, but, you know, when I first started the thought of meditation, you'd be like, laughed at the room. But I think that sort of. It's really centers your body. And if you're an athlete or a footballer, whatever you are, your body's your currency. You've got to look after it nice.
- [77:07]
Jake
If you could go back to one moment of your life, what would it be? And why?
- [77:11]
Damian
For.
- [77:11]
Joe Cole
For good reasons or bad reasons? For good reasons, I'll go back to the birth of my first child. Because, like, that's this one moment in your life that just blew me away. Like, I was a. Like I, I. You. I thought I had some kind of control over my emotions. But then when the babies. When she was handed to you, like, I just went crying uncontrollably. And happened again for number two and number three. But I'm. I was trying to not cry for them. Do you know what I mean? So it's like there was some kind of primal thing. I literally. But a third one's like, you ain't crying here. You're not crying. Baby gets handed to me like that. And Carly's looking at me, she's not even crying, and I'm just like. So that from a. From a nice point of view, if I could go back to Moscow and I'd go back and I'd. I'd. Because I come off the pitch for an Elka tonight. I come off so he missed the penalty. I'd try and change that somehow. Maybe dry the pitch. But, yeah, that's the life. That is the. The journey that. That's the one regret. If I'd have won the Champions League, then I'd have gotten a lot in club football, and it was this. That much? Yeah.
- [78:26]
Damian
Does that bother you?
- [78:27]
Joe Cole
Does it bother me?
- [78:33]
Damian
I think the pause is a yes.
- [78:35]
Joe Cole
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The pause is a yes. But only because I don't want to lie. Know what I mean? Like, I think all footballers, I'll sit there at night sometimes, very rarely, I'll be like, but I just put that chance away. We'd have won that game, maybe won that title and the Champions League's there. But ultimately, like I said, I'm very good. Like how I used to be able to say to myself, even in the dark times, like, get hold of yourself here. You're doing a great job. Like what a job you got. Enjoy it. I can do that. I still do that to myself now. If I'm thinking off, ain't that sad? I didn't win the Champions League or Jackie wasn't there. You know, listen, I can't really argue with my lot in life. Blessed I think you are, and you've.
- [79:18]
Damian
Blessed a lot of others. The final question that you'd like to leave people thinking about after this amazing varied conversation about your life is the one golden rule for living a high performance life. What do you want to leave people thinking about?
- [79:31]
Joe Cole
Oh, do you know? Do you know what? I. I saw that and then something recently has come to me, you know, because you read, you know, high performance read. Like a lot of people I think in this, in the world at the moment are trying to sort of, you know, there's a lot of, you know, you see young people, they all buff and they're trying to strive for things and, and things are very difficult and there's a lot of emphasis on achieving things. Right. And that ultimately, if you do that, that means you're going to lose a lot of time. You're gonna have bad days. And then people get down and things that. After someone said to me the other day, they said, whenever you're feeling down or things are not going well, any insecurity or any sort of stress or anything like that, that's on you. It's always when you think about me, oh, you know, does my bum look big in this? Or am I good enough or have I got enough money or am I going to be able to do that? It's all, am, am, am. And someone said to me the other day, and it really works. It's like whenever you're feeling a little bit low, just go out there and think of yourself as like, right, I'm going to. Someone else is uncomfortable. Is Jake. All right, all right. How you doing? Do you know what I mean? You know, don't think of yourself. Just think about trying to help someone else in the immediate vicinity and then just keep doing that. And you just keep doing that. Eventually you forget about whatever was bothering you. Does that make sense? Yeah, that's. Yeah, yeah. I've only just recently done that, so come back in six months. I'll let you know if it's still working. It's working at the moment.
- [80:56]
Damian
Good. I'm so pleased and it's lovely to see you again, man.
- [80:59]
Joe Cole
Good to see you, man.
- [81:04]
Damian
Damian.
- [81:04]
Jake
Jake.
- [81:05]
Damian
Well, that was an Emotional one, wasn't it?
- [81:07]
Jake
Oh, it was. You know Joe far better than I do. What was your take on it?
- [81:12]
Damian
I've always known Joe. You know, we've worked together for the best part of 10 years as like sort of a cheeky chap type, that kind of Joe Cole Persona. I have certainly never seen him emotional before. I haven't seen him cry. What I do get from the time I've spent with him that I saw in that conversation. Right. Was that what you saw there was the real Joe Cole, because he is the nicest guy. And I think kindness, generosity, a care for others and empathy for other people, that all shone through in that conversation. I remember day one, actually, after I spent quite a long time trying to convince him to be a pundit because he was adamant that if he became a pundit, he wouldn't be taken seriously as a manager.
- [81:54]
Joe Cole
Right.
- [81:55]
Damian
And I still think he has ambitions as a manager, but he understood that at that time it was a good opportunity for him to be a pundit. Day one, I remember walking into the office and walking around everyone, and I mean everyone, offering everyone a cup of tea or a cup of coffee. What would you like? He'd often turn up with little treats and snacks for people, which is. It's interesting because he would, like, rock up with a load of cakes or something. And now I hear him talk about George and I think, ah, well, there you go. George was giving away tickets to football matches and 20 years later you're giving away cake to the people that you're working with. But I think my overriding sense from that conversation is that he achieved, apart from the Champions League win, which he mentioned to us, he achieved everything he would want as a footballer. But the most important thing for him is family. And I think that he's managed to get out of the game, survive it, and actually is in a really good place with his relationships with his wife and his kids and his friends intact. And that for me is high performance.
- [82:52]
Jake
He's won, haven't they?
- [82:53]
Joe Cole
Yeah, exactly.
- [82:54]
Damian
He's won the game of life.
- [82:55]
Joe Cole
Right.
- [82:55]
Damian
And I think he gets that and he understands that. And a large, large part of that has to go to George, but also a large part has to go to Jose Mourinho, who clearly taught him a lot. I mean, that was fascinating the way that it was obviously a very tempestuous relationship, but one that served Joe really well.
- [83:10]
Joe Cole
Yeah.
- [83:10]
Jake
And I think, you know, sometimes we get into this idea that having strident or stinging criticism can be a bad thing, whereas I think what Joe's really good at explaining is actually that can be good if you're willing to listen to it, take it on board and do something different on the. On the back of it.
- [83:26]
Joe Cole
Yeah.
- [83:26]
Damian
And what about when he said the thing he's most proud of is the fact he didn't quit after his knee injury. And I think we forget about that with Joe Cole, that this gifted footballer had a huge injury which impacted the sort of back end of his career.
- [83:39]
Joe Cole
Yeah.
- [83:39]
Jake
But then I think what was really telling on that was that he said he never allowed football to be his identity. So even when he was coming back from injury, maybe he wasn't the same footballer he'd been previously. It didn't mean he wasn't the same person. He was still the same partner. He was still the same parent and still the same son and friends to his mates. I think there's so much wisdom there that any of us can take and apply to our own lives.
- [84:04]
Damian
And I know he's concerned about his kids growing up in a very different environment to the one that he did. And that's one of the reasons for writing this book, I think, is that he wants them to understand the journey he went through. And I think with Joe Cole as their dad, they'll be just fine, don't you?
- [84:19]
Jake
Well, I think the values that his dad passed to him, that he's passing to his own kids, they. They'll be absolutely fine.
- [84:25]
Damian
Thanks, mate.
- [84:25]
Jake
Thank you, mate.
- [84:29]
Damian
Joe, myself, Damian, the whole team, we appreciate such an honest and emotional conversation. From that counsellor stay in Camden to the Champions League final in Moscow. What a journey from a special guy. And I really want you to understand, everyone, that Joe is donating every penny from this book to charity. I tell you what, his dad would be so proud, wouldn't he, Damian?
- [84:48]
Jake
Absolutely.
- [84:49]
Damian
And if this episode resonated with you, whether that's the resilience, the f family conversation, finding identity beyond your job, we'd love you to pass it on and share it with someone that needs to hear it. And don't forget, you can check out the High Performance app and hear episodes with Frank Lampard, Rio Ferdinand, Steven Gerrard, Robin Van Persie. So many more football legends available right now on the High Performance app. Thank you for being with us and we'll see you next time.
- [85:33]
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- [85:34]
Joe Cole
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- [85:36]
Damian
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Joe Cole
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- [85:39]
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- [86:04]
Joe Cole
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