Joe Marler: His Story of Rage, Regret and Redemption

Summary

The High Performance Podcast

Episode: Joe Marler: His Story of Rage, Regret and Redemption
Date: November 14, 2025
Hosts: Jake Humphrey & Damian Hughes
Guest: Joe Marler, England & Harlequins Rugby Player

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Episode Overview

This deeply honest and unfiltered conversation with rugby star Joe Marler goes far beyond the sport itself, delving into his experiences with rage, regret, mental health breakdown, and ultimately, redemption. Marler opens up about his most harrowing moments, the stigma of male vulnerability in rugby, and the path to discovering a true sense of purpose. The discussion is both raw and hopeful, offering lessons in resilience, self-understanding, and the importance of emotional connection—on and off the pitch.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Joe Marler’s Mental Health Journey

• Struggles with Identity and Purpose
  • Joe describes being at a low point despite external success:

    “I had a bit of a breakdown and I just didn't know who I was, what my purpose was, where I was going in life, and yet I had so much going for me.” (00:11)

• Feeling Out of Control
  • He uses a rugby metaphor to explain life’s unpredictability:

    “When a ball is up in the air...doesn't matter how great it looks because there's no telling which way it's going to bounce...that is exactly how I felt.” (02:56–03:04)

• Nature of Depression
  • Joe discusses the swing between high energy and deep lulls, gradually becoming more prolonged:

    “One minute I'm happy as Larry...Next minute I can't stand people...but then it was becoming more prolonged...from hourly to daily to weekly and then monthly...” (04:41)

2. Hitting Rock Bottom and Seeking Help

• The Breaking Point
  • Joe recounts a 2018 incident triggered by a minor argument, escalating into a full breakdown at home:

    “I completely lose the plot, my anger, my aggression. She's seven months pregnant at the time...I said, that's it, I'm gone...That image of her being on the floor crying her eyes out...that's burned into my memory of the biggest, my most ashamed I've been.” (15:15–17:40)

  • He reflects on suicidal thoughts:

    “The constant thoughts of not wanting to be here anymore. Everyone would be better off without me actually if I wasn't here.” (17:29)

• The Decision to Get Professional Help
  • The turning point came when his wife urged him to seek therapy:

    “You need help. I can't help you for what you need...I'll be here to support you. But you need to go and get help.” (17:54)

3. Stigma and Experiences With Therapy

• Breaking Male Taboos
  • Joe discusses barriers men face in seeking help:

    “But men, we always think, no, we can't ever do that, we can't ever...what you've got is far more sinister and disgusting and shameful than what anyone else has got.” (10:35–11:26)

  • The relief of opening up to a professional stranger:

    “It felt like a physical weight actually dropped when I'm sitting there...I just opened up. Because then for me, it became so easy because he was a stranger.” (19:43–20:04)

• Ongoing Self-Understanding
  • Some issues aren't easy to articulate, even in therapy:

    “There's certain things that I...I'm still trying to get my head round.” (22:28–22:55)

  • Therapy is helpful even when you're feeling good:

    “That's almost the perfect time to do it...Because you're in a good spot where you can actually then take the next step.” (23:25)

4. Impact on Teammates and Rugby Culture

• Worry Over Perceptions
  • Joe feared being seen as weak or "soft":

    “I was panicking about that. I play a sport that's...you're meant to be this alpha macho, physical confrontational...And now you're talking about crying on your way to work.” (25:07)

• The Power of Vulnerability
  • The release of his mental health documentary prompted support—and surprise—from teammates:

    “A teammate...said his wife had sent him the video...it resonated with him and it helped him so much, he's now going to go get help.” (26:26)

  • The shift in rugby culture:

    “There's been a big shift, particularly in rugby...Yes, you need to be like that on the field, but you can be whatever you want to be...off it.” (28:00)

• Role of Humor & Persona
  • Joe developed a joker persona as both a coping strategy and attention-seeking method:

    “That side of it was a feeling of, how the hell am I here?...Maybe I'll go the extreme of not fitting in.” (29:42–30:11)

5. The Central Role of Family

• Profound Love & Dependence on His Wife, Daisy

  “My wife is everything to me...if it wasn't for her, I don't say it lightly. I probably wouldn't be sitting here now.” (31:53–33:19)

• Shifting Life Priorities
  • Re-orienting purpose towards family and self-care:

    “That's my purpose. My purpose is to try and give Daisy, my wife, the best life she can have and create memories along the way...create these little humans into big good humans.” (06:04)

6. Longevity and Wellbeing in Rugby

• Embracing Recovery and Routine
  • Sauna, ice tub, and “sea bobbing” with friends as both mental and physical reset:

    “I’ve got a sauna at home now...ice tub...daily in and out, and then mix it up with some sea bobbin...just get round, group of boys all just talking about the week, how they're feeling, everyone open up...” (35:28–36:12)

  • Perspective from nature:

    “You look out at the sea and you just feel really insignificant in a good way...it’s like a reset button.” (36:10)

7. Team Culture: Lessons and Contrasts

• Player-Led Cultures
  • Success at Harlequins after a coach’s departure:

    “The players almost were like oh not we could do what we want but we were in control. It was player led beyond belief...” (38:39)

  • But eventual need for balance:

    “It got to the point where it was two player led. We were struggling with direction.” (41:10)

• Different Leadership Styles
  • Steve Borthwick’s collaborative approach:

    “He enables that player led environment to drive the standards drive it that. So then you get a better buy in from the group while still having this direction...” (42:16)

  • Eddie Jones’ “challenging to unhealthy” environment:

    “At times that environment was probably unhealthy. Too authoritative...I'm sitting there, lads like, this isn't, this isn't good. You shouldn't be feeling like this for a training session.” (44:18)

8. Emotional Connection as the Secret to High-Performance Teams

• Beyond Wanting to Win
  • Success rooted in emotional cohesion and shared purpose:

    “There always seems to be some sort of outside influence or emotional driver that isn't necessarily just everyone in the league, whatever sport you're in, everyone wants to win...But the teams that often win have more than that.” (46:06)

  • Joe’s advice for coaches:

    “It's so hard to generate it authentically because...it happens organically...it's really hard to generate that feeling by bringing something in that's not authentic.” (47:16)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• (03:04) On life’s unpredictability:
  “You don't know where [the rugby ball] is going to be. And that is exactly how I felt...I haven't got any control over this. Once you realize that, you're better off just freeing yourself of that...” – Joe Marler
• (17:29) On his darkest moment:
  “Everyone would be better off without me actually if I wasn't here.” – Joe Marler
• (20:04) About the relief of therapy:
  “Once you muster up the courage...it felt like a physical weight actually dropped.” – Joe Marler
• (26:26) On the documentary’s impact:
  “The following day I got a message from a teammate...it resonated with him and it helped him so much, he's now going to go get help. And I was like, ah, makes sense now.” – Joe Marler
• (31:53–33:19) On Daisy, his wife:
  “My wife is everything to me...I probably wouldn’t be sitting here now.” – Joe Marler
• (36:10) On sea bobbing:
  “You just feel really insignificant in a good way...it’s like a reset button.” – Joe Marler
• (44:18) On Eddie Jones’ training environment:
  “This test match Tuesday, it's worse than playing a game...This shouldn't be constant because God knows what this is actually doing.” – Joe Marler
• (49:05) On what makes teams successful:
  “It’s the emotional bit that...drives. At the top, everyone's pretty much on the same level. It's right. It's that emotional connection, how tight the group, how hard they're willing to work for each other. That isn't just, I want to work hard for you because it's my job. It's, I want to work hard with you because we've been through this and that outside of the game.” – Joe Marler

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:11 – Joe describes his lowest point and not knowing his purpose
• 03:04 – Rugby’s unpredictability as an analogy for life
• 06:04 – Discovering purpose through family
• 15:15 – 2018 breakdown: rage, regret, and the moment he sought help
• 17:29 – The depths of suicidal thoughts
• 19:43 – Taking the first step to therapy
• 22:28 – The limits of what can be shared and ongoing personal work
• 26:26 – On teammates’ support and shifting rugby culture
• 29:42 – Persona as coping strategy, humour, and the challenge of fitting in
• 31:53–33:19 – The impact of Daisy, Joe’s wife
• 35:28 – Daily routines for physical and mental health
• 38:39 – Harlequins’ player-led culture and its challenges
• 42:16 – Steve Borthwick vs. Eddie Jones: contrasting leadership
• 44:18 – "Test match Tuesday" and the unhealthy side of high challenge
• 46:06 – The importance of shared emotional drivers in successful teams
• 49:05 – Emotional connection as the difference-maker at the elite level
• 49:58 – Consistency as the "golden rule" for high performance

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Joe Marler's Golden Rule for High Performance

“Golden rule for high performance is consistency...If you want to be a high performer, you need to strive for that consistency so that you get better, you get better performances more regularly.” (49:58)

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Tone & Final Thoughts

This episode balances candor, humor, and genuine emotion. Marler’s vulnerability is counterbalanced by wit and perspective, making his journey both relatable and instructive. The conversation ultimately champions the need for authentic connection—at home, within ourselves, and on any team.

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Recommended for:
Anyone interested in mental health, leadership, team culture, or simply human stories of overcoming darkness and forging meaning in the everyday.

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Note:
Ad breaks, intros, and promotional segments have been omitted to focus solely on the conversation's substance.

Transcript

[Interviewer]

Hear it first on the High Performance app. Available early zak Brown, the McLaren boss, on leading at the edge of racing.

[Joe Marler]

I was at a pretty low point in my life and I had a bit of a breakdown and I just didn't know who I was, what my purpose was, where I was going in life, and yet I had so much going for me.

[Narrator/Host]

That is the voice of Joe Mahler, England and Harlequin's rugby legend, celebrity traitors, finalist and one of the most honest, unfiltered voices in sport. When we started this chat, it was fascinating. Joe came in and was nervous, really nervous. He told us that he didn't know what he had to offer to high performance because, in his words, I've been shit at most things. But the interesting thing is we're not here just to talk about rugby. We're here to talk about life and how it throws us challenges that we need to learn how to overcome. He'll share the moment in 2018 when he stood in his kitchen, having turned his house upside down and left his wife of seven months pregnant, crying on the floor before driving off thinking the world would be better off without me. This is Joe Mahler, unfiltered, just straight out of the darkness, the breakdown and more importantly, how he clawed his way back. We're going to dive deep into the catalyst for his mental health breakdown and the best decision he ever made. The teammate who sent him a touching message after watching the revealing documentary that he'd made. How Eddie Jones Test match Tuesdays left England players shaking with nerves and why the best teams and have always got something bigger than simply wanting to win. The emotional glue that makes you go that extra mile. I remember as Joe walked out of the studio after the record and he said, wow, that was quite some therapy session. I hope you'll enjoy listening. Please welcome Joe Mahler to High Performance.

[Joe Marler]

I don't think I've been this nervous to do something for a long, long time, actually. Why are you nervous? Well, what the fuck do you want to know? Because I can't give you high performance.

[Interviewer]

Of course you can.

[Joe Marler]

No, I can't.

[Interviewer]

So what do you think high performance is?

[Joe Marler]

I can't answer that. I could answer it if I could Google the definition of high performance and then I'd just read that out and make it out as my own.

[Interviewer]

Do you think you're high performance?

[Joe Marler]

No. There's always been an occasion where you feel like, oh, I'm quite good at that. I'm doing that. Right. But then there's also been a lot of times where you're like, I'm really shit at this. I'm failing at this.

[Interviewer]

I want to share a quote that I think probably plays nicely into what we're talking about here, and it is one of your quotes, or at least I hope it is. When a ball is up in the air and it's a perfect kick, you know, this one doesn't matter how great it looks because there's no telling which way it's going to bounce when it hits the floor.

[Joe Marler]

That's a bit like life.

[Interviewer]

You think it's going great one minute and it all looks wonderful, but you never know which way it's actually going to take you.

[Joe Marler]

Tell us about that quote that came from a mate of mine that was helping me through a period in my life that I was lost and didn't know what the fuck was going on. I just think it's a great analogy for. Because you don't. Rugby's like that. There's so many different things in the game, so many things going on at once. And the beauty of a rugby ball is, literally, you don't know where it's going to be. And that is exactly how I felt where I was. I was like, I haven't got any control over this. And I was always feeling like I needed control of it. But once you realize that, you're better off just freeing yourself of that and just going with the things you can control. And then. And I was at a pretty low point in my life, and I had a bit of a breakdown, and I just didn't know who I was, what my purpose was, where I was going in life, and yet I had so much going for me. And it was like that feeling of just being lost and empty, and yet I had so much around me that I could. I didn't know how to describe it, and I still don't know how to describe it, but I can feel it.

[Interviewer]

How does it feel?

[Joe Marler]

Lonely. Dark. Like you. You want it to all go away. Everything just. It'll be much better if it just all goes away.

[Narrator/Host]

And does that come on suddenly, or is it a creeping realization?

[Joe Marler]

It used to. It used to. I was always described as quite bipolar. Right. One minute I'm happy as Larry, life and soul. Next minute I can't stand people stay away. I just want to go under the covers, lock myself away, not see a soul. That would swing quite quickly, but then it was becoming more prolonged. Those periods where it'd go from hourly to then daily to weekly and then monthly, and then these big lulls of like, I can't be bothered to do anything here. I don't want to see anyone. Lethar, all that side. That side of it. So, yeah, that's. That was what was going on. But now, having gone through that, hit low points and got more answers and more control over who I am, what I'm doing, where I'm going, I can not predict. But I can sense things better coming.

[Narrator/Host]

Okay.

[Joe Marler]

That I go, I'm gonna need a bit of a break here. Or don't get too much on my plate at once. Yep.

[Narrator/Host]

And there'll be a lot of people listening to this, Joe, that can recognise some of those same symptoms for themselves. Can you give us an idea on, like, when people talk about having a sense of purpose, it can seem intimidating if we don't know what that is, what that looks like. How did you come to discover it for yourself?

[Joe Marler]

I think the realisation for me was that moment back in 2018 when I'd hit rock bottom and then went and got help, you know, started therapy, started medication and then started to realize what I had around me and start to prioritize what I wanted and just sit there and actually think about it. Go, what do I want to get up my life then what is what. What is life about for me and my beautiful wife and my wonderful kids? I was like, I've got these. That's my purpose. My purpose is to try and give Daisy, my wife, the best life she can have and create memories along the way and then try and create these little humans into big good humans and just guide them with that. And that was like, that's my purpose. That's what I'm here for. And you know, that's come about in the last couple of years because prior to that it was all about. It's all about me. It's all about rugby. This is my career. You've got to be selfish to do this. It's all about me. And that's just an add on brilliant. And it was all about that. And it was like, it changes your priorities, change over your life. That was it. But now it is, you know, my family, me, which I found very hard a couple of years ago to actually go, hang on, what do you mean? You your narcissist working on yourself or like the sort of self love that these words people use. But it's massively important to realize you have to be in a good spot in order to be the best you can be for your family, for your teammates, for your friends. If you're just operating it 20, 30% all the time, you're going to be no good for them. So you've got to sort that out and then it's work. So that's my priorities that I have. For me, there's a few things I'd.

[Interviewer]

Love to pick up on, funnily enough. Yeah, when you talk about Hang on.

[Joe Marler]

Have I got a pay for this therapy session?

[Interviewer]

No, this one's free.

[Joe Marler]

Oh, brilliant. I'll relax. Fine. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Thanks.

[Paige Desorbo]

Yeah.

[Joe Marler]

Do.

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[Joe Marler]

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[Interviewer]

Let me explain why I ask this question in the way I do so when I was in my early 20s, I had therapy, but things felt or things looked great from the outside, which is a really common thing with people who have mental health struggles. They think, how can I put. And you've said it already. How can I possibly have a problem? Because outwardly my life's great, but I did what you did. I kind of spoke a bit in riddles. I was like, yeah, I had a tough time, but then I had some treatment and then things got better and then I came out of it. My issue with that is I don't think it helps other people in a similar position because they go, well, what were you feeling? What did you discuss? What Was the Enlightenment.

[Joe Marler]

How did.

[Interviewer]

And I really think, if you're happy to talk in specifics, I'd love to.

[Joe Marler]

Just ask you a few questions because I think I hate using these. But the whole mental health movement, actually, particularly with men, because I can't, you know, it affects everyone, of course, but I can only speak from a male point of view and my point of view, but male mental health and the movement to now actually be more vulnerable. Open up, talk about your issue. Because you just opening up to me there immediately. You saying you struggle in your 20s, you went and got therapy and I was like, for me, I went to see. It's more common than you think in everybody. Like, everyone struggles at various points of their lives to a different degree, of course, but it's more common than you think. But men, we always think, no, we can't ever do that, we can't ever.

[Interviewer]

And you think that what you've got is far more sinister and disgusting and shameful than what anyone else has got.

[Joe Marler]

No one could possibly understand.

[Interviewer]

Exactly.

[Joe Marler]

No. That's why I'm not gonna put it out there. Plus, I then don't want to be viewed as weak or weird or something like that. But if you want to talk specifics, we can. We can talk specifics. Yeah, It's. For me, 2016, I was. I 25, 26, I'd gone through a couple of different on field incidents. There was one in particular against England, Wales, where I ended up racially abusing a Welsh player from traveler descent. And I had no idea, like, it was a big learning curve for me there. It exploded on social media. I didn't know where to turn, what I'd done, all that sort of stuff. How did that feel? It felt really tough. And that the world hated me and that I'd let everyone down. Even though I got my family, you know, saying to me, it's all right, you know, you're not a racist, but everyone's calling you a racist. I mean, I didn't know what I was doing and all this sort of. Sort of thing. And then you take responsibility, you accept what happened and you try and learn and move on from it, but because it was just kicked off in this small rugby bubble and then sort of breached out. Slightly overwhelming. Yeah, it was overwhelming. I was like, I need to get out of this. I just need to withdraw completely. And I pulled out of the England tour to Australia that year and thought that break would do me good. It would just relax and time away, spend time with family, and then I'd rediscover my love for rugby again. And I did. I was like, great. And I was given the opportunity by Ellie Jones to come back into the squad. I'm very grateful for that. And I was like, great. I'm feeling really, really good. You fast forward nine months. I'm starting to feel similar feelings without these incidents happening. And then other incidents, whether it's punching people or verbally abusing people on the pitch or that sort of thing started creeping in again. And then it started creeping into home life where I was becoming very distant. I was there but I wasn't there. I wasn't engaging with the kids, very short with the wife. Like the relationship was being tested. And it started to dawn on me a bit. I was like, maybe this isn't just rugby related or my job related. Maybe something else is going on.

[Interviewer]

Was there an incident or a moment where that dawned on you?

[Joe Marler]

It wasn't until 2018 because it was kept doing like patch up jobs. Yeah, I'll be right. Just have a little break or whatever. Or enforce a break by getting red carded, getting a ban as opposed to. That's an easy way out because.

[Interviewer]

And you do that on purpose knowing you could get banned and have a break.

[Joe Marler]

Knowing that I could get banned and do that. Cause it's like, well, I've got bad record as it is. I know that if I do something like that I'll get four or six weeks off. Not off off. Like it's not a holiday.

[Narrator/Host]

Yeah.

[Joe Marler]

And that's a good enough excuse. Oh, it was just a mistake on the field as opposed to going, I need some time off because I'm really.

[Interviewer]

Struggling that even that carries additional challenges because then you're having to kind of outwardly create this false impression that you did something you shouldn't have done. And inside there's a, there's a voice going, you did that on purpose because you know, you stupid idiot, you need a break. You're, you're weak. You've got, do you know what I mean? Like the self talk then is a real challenge I imagine at that point.

[Joe Marler]

Oh God. You don't want to do self talk in my head, mate. I don't. There's Joe. 1, 2, 3, 4. I don't know which Joe I'm. I'm today. So it was tough. But the one incident back in, in 2018 where it was rock bottom actually I can laugh about the start of it because it, it start, it was started by a squirrel. It was squirrel gate. And me and my wife had been, we'd gone to drop the kids off somewhere to get babysitter. We were getting ready to go for a party with some friends and on the way back this squirrel had ducked out into the road and I hadn't swerved. And Daisy, my wife loves all animals and we can have a joke and stuff like that about this and we do. And she was like, what are you doing? Why aren't you swerving? I didn't hit the squirrel. The squirrel just, you know, ran off the thing. And I was like, well heard you're not meant to swerve cuz that causes more danger if you swerve, you're meant to just go. That was the catalyst to then just this small argument and how I'd been feeling leading into that. It just then exploded into a massive row. I then lost control. We get back into the house and I completely lose the plot, my anger, my aggression. She's seven months pregnant at the time as well and I'm turning the house over, punching the walls, punching the doors in, shouting and screaming. And then I just left, I just left her. I said, that's it, I'm gone, there's nothing to do. I just needed. I was gone. That's it. Left her. And that image of her being on the floor crying her eyes out, seven months pregnant. But that's burned into my memory of the biggest, my most ashamed I've been. And that was like a, a big like crescendo of what had been building, of how I'd been feeling, trying to put it to one side and I'll be all right. Well, that's all. And then the constant thoughts of not wanting to be here anymore. What would be, everyone would be better off without me actually if I wasn't.

[Paige Desorbo]

Here.

[Joe Marler]

And then leave it. And then it just dawned on me, what the fuck am I doing here? What am I doing? Like this is all like get back there. You know, from there it was like, we've got to go get help. You need help. I can't help you for what you need. I'll be here to support you. And I thought, but you need to go and get help. And that was that moment. And from then it was all.

[Interviewer]

Like.

[Joe Marler]

A discovery almost for me to go and talk to this stranger, this psychiatrist and then delve into what was going on, that it wasn't, it was rugby related, but it wasn't wholly rug related and it was all sorts. And this sort of got me in a better position to then understand. And then I'm still on that. I don't Like Journey. It's not a cheerlead. I'm still on that learning, yeah. Every day, every week of triggers, of different tools, different ways to try and cope with different situations, with different people, with different emotions. But I'm in a far better place than I was back then.

[Interviewer]

We'd love to talk about the tools that you. I know you're particularly interested in the tools that you've employed to calm yourself down and to keep your mental health in a good place. But I just want to talk before we get there about the therapy, because there are lots of people that get to the point that you got to where it comes to a crescendo. What they don't then do is take the next step. There are also lots of people who are maybe hearing that and going, well, I don't need therapy because I haven't reached the crescendo where I'm smashing the house down and driving off, you know, contemplating taking my own life or whatever. Therefore, I don't need therapy. But the truth is that these things are on such a sliding scale. And if anyone is contemplating therapy, what would you tell them about that first meeting where you went in and, you know, you often get that first question, which still gets me sometimes, which is, why are you here? Do you remember that moment?

[Joe Marler]

Yeah. No, I did. It took me a while to actually get out of the car. And I don't know, I don't want to just have this stranger invade my mind out of fear of what's going to come out. Like we spoke, like you mentioned earlier.

[Interviewer]

You know, what are they going to judge me for?

[Joe Marler]

Yeah, what are they going to judge me on? Then you go, and once you muster up the courage to actually get up there, get in there, and they ask you. And then it felt like a physical weight actually dropped. When I'm sitting there talking to this psychiatrist and asking these questions and him knowing what questions to ask, I just opened up. Because then for me, it became so easy because he was a stranger. He was a professional stranger, but he was a stranger. And I felt like he's doing this. Cause it's his job and I'm not now. I'm not burdening him. Which was a lot of the issue with friends and family. It's like they've got a lot going on as it is. And also back to the point of, well, what have you got to moan about, mate? Do you know what I mean? We're struggling to pay the mortgage this month and you're sitting here crying about feeling low. Do you Know, like, that was what had in me. So then to have someone like that, a stranger, to just open up to and not have that judgment and then have some answers for me and then guide me in a way to then get more answers, to explore different things. Because he said he could only take me a certain level with, in terms of the actual clinical diagnosis and stuff like that, to then going, actually, you need. Let's work out if you need CAT or CBT or, you know, that's that side of it. And it was a massive relief, massive thing. And it's a little bit like crying. You know, when you cry, you're like, oh, I'm miserable in it, or I'm really upset in it. But whenever you cry, the feeling you actually have after, you're like, wow, this is great. I feel great. Do you like me?

[Narrator/Host]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Marler]

There's surely there's some sort of physical. I don't know the physics, but there must be something that goes around it. So that half makes me tempt me to just cry all the time, because then, you know, you're gonna feel good after it.

[Narrator/Host]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

It's never a bad thing to have a cry.

[Joe Marler]

No, it's great.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Narrator/Host]

We were lucky enough to speak to Gabor Mate, the doctor who deals in sort of trauma specialists.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah, amazing.

[Narrator/Host]

And one of the things he speaks about is like, don't look at the behaviour, look at the wound. So what was it when you went to see this psychiatrist that rather than somebody judging the behaviour of what you've done on the field or at home, what was it that he got beyond to understand what was causing it?

[Joe Marler]

I won't. I won't go into that.

[Narrator/Host]

Okay.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah, I won't go into that. Although I. I appreciate it might be useful or helpful, but there's certain things that I. I'm still trying to get my head round.

[Narrator/Host]

Okay.

[Joe Marler]

That caught. So, yeah, I would. I wouldn't be able to do that, like.

[Interviewer]

But it made sense.

[Joe Marler]

Oh, it makes total sense. And then still back to your point on therapy being, well, I'm not feeling down, I'm not feeling low, I'm not feeling suicidal, I'm not feeling like I've lost someone or grief or anything like that. I'm feeling great. So. But that's not what it's about. Like, I. I still say that to my therapist now. I'm like, well, I actually feel all right. You know, maybe we won't do this where I'm feeling good and she's like, that's almost the. The perfect time to do it.

[Narrator/Host]

Yeah.

[Joe Marler]

Because you're in a good spot where you can actually then take the next step of.

[Narrator/Host]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Marler]

As opposed to waiting for it. I'm sorry, I can't delve into that.

[Narrator/Host]

A little bit more personal.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah, it is personal. But, yeah, I'd like to help. But until I still. Because I still have a lot to. To deal with and get my head around with it.

[Narrator/Host]

Yeah. No one.

[Interviewer]

Did it make sense, though, because that was. The interesting thing that I found was that I hadn't linked the two things together. And it's amazing how, like, did you then think to yourself, how did I not think this was that? Or did you know all along, really, what was causing it?

[Joe Marler]

I think I might have known all along, but I didn't want to admit it or accept that because then it could be. Then it would be real. Yeah, that's how I felt. It would become real. But it makes sense, you know, a little bit. A weird eureka moment that you go, oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, do you know that sort of feeling? And I get it.

[Narrator/Host]

But I'm interested as well in how it was received in a professional context. And the only reason I mention this, Joe, is I worked for a long time in rugby league, and there was a guy who. Your story reminds me of him and people and Wendy said I even heard the same language used by the coaches of. He's bipolar. Oh, he's on a bad day today. And unfortunately for him, there was like, a real lack of understanding within the dressing room about the issues he was going through that still sort of haunts me. And I'm interested in how it was taken back in the dressing room.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah, it was. That was a big worry of mine with that happening. And then from the period of it happening, growing, learning, understanding a bit more to then go in actually saying it publicly, you know, coming out with. With what had gone on and how I was feeling, there was that panic of, like, oh, God, what are the boys gonna think? You know, I play a sport that's. You're meant to be this alpha macho, physical confrontational in your face. And now you're talking about crying on your way to work, not knowing why you're upset and showing this weakness thing. I was like, oh, God, they're just gonna think I'm a soft cock and, like, weak up because there's no space that you can't afford to have that side of things on the field. There's no. There's no. There's no backward step. You can't have that. That's not the point of the game. You know, you have to be there. So then that always. The tradition has always been the same off the field, the whole environment, the macho thing, that you couldn't ever possibly talk about your mental health or anything that's going on like that. So I was panicking about that.

[Narrator/Host]

Yeah.

[Joe Marler]

And I remember speaking to Daisy the night. But we made this documentary around mental health and what I'd gone through, but also then some of the bits and bobs that I tried out to see if that works for me. And that was due to come out the following morning. And I was like, I'm not sure. I think I'm gonna text Gray and all the people that are involved in that project and, like, just get it canned. She's like, what are you on about? I was like, no, I don't want the boys to know. I don't want it to be out there. I don't want it for them to judge me and think like that. And she said, don't be silly, because that was the whole point of you doing this, was if there was someone else out there in your situation, feeling the way you feel, realizing you're not alone, it is more common than you think, and actually trying to help them to make that first step of going to get help. That's the point of what you're doing it. And then it came out. And the following day, I got a message from a teammate, not overly close with him, family man, loving life, wouldn't ever, ever dreamt anything was going on with him. And he said his wife had sent him the video, sent him the. The film. And it resonated with him and it helped him so much, he's now going to go get help. And I was like, ah, makes sense now. And also that for me, it was like, oh, brilliant, there's someone else. And there's more. You know, there's more than. Than you think there is. And it was. The boys were unbelievably supportive. There was a lot of confusion as well, around, oh, we didn't realize anything was going on, mate. We just thought you're a bit up and down or a bit moody all the time or a bit, you know, like that. And they were like, we wish you'd have said something earlier. We'd have helped you out. And that, for me, was then, like, you dream up all this shit of how it's gonna be, and it's never as bad as you think it's gonna be, but you always dream it up. And, yeah, the boys are Unbelievable. And it was. There's been a big shift, particularly in rugby, a lot in sport, particularly in rugby, because of that macho side of it all. Yes, you need to be like that on the field, but you can be whatever you want to be and whatever you're going for, like, where everyone's in it together, we're here for you. So there's been a big shift in it. It's just, how do you shift it from talking about it so people can resonate and, you know, speak to actually, what are the things that can help? What are the right questions to ask? Like, what are the signs to look out for in your teammates? You know, I think that's the next step for rugby particularly, that we start having more education around what we can do to actually help it, as opposed to just asking the question twice, how are you? How are you? Do you know what I mean? Actually looking for signs of it. Because not everyone's gonna open. Not everyone's gonna open up at first.

[Narrator/Host]

When I look over your career, you know, like, you've developed a reputation of being the joker, the loud one, the guy that the party starts when Joe comes in. Was that a coping strategy of dealing with going into those environments as well?

[Joe Marler]

Yeah, I think that side of it was a feeling of, how the hell am I here?

[Narrator/Host]

Yeah.

[Joe Marler]

How have I managed to do this? Have I blagged my way to this bit? A bit like imposter. Like, how I'm. Even now, I'm like, how the hell am I sitting here talking to you lot? And also, my background being not from the regular rugby archetype. Is that even the word? Yeah.

[Narrator/Host]

Yeah.

[Joe Marler]

Oh, thank you.

[Narrator/Host]

You're not public school. You didn't go.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah, which. And there's nothing wrong with that. It's just I hadn't come from the. The usual background, so I was surrounded, particularly at a club like Harlequins, you know, the London sort of posh boys that have been renowned. I was like, oh, God, I flew a little bit out of place here. You know, how do I. And it's same as you, whether you go to school or a new environment, you've got to try and find where you fit in. And I was like, where do I fit in? I was like, but it's not really anywhere to fit in here now. So maybe I'll go the extreme of not fitting in, going the opposite. You know, I'm not. You know, I've. I'm in control. Two fingers to the man and all this. Like, let's have the Mohawks let's have the attention. That's all that side of it, and really sort of amp it up with that. I used to be like that, or I. I still can be like that. And that was the rugby Persona. But then I'd go home and then I'd be like, well, I'm just happy sitting in front of the tv. I don't want to do any of that sort of stuff. So I guess maybe that was a coping strategy that I had or attempt at it also. Probably because I was an attention seeker and wanted all the cameras on me.

[Interviewer]

You and him both. Before we move on to talk about rugby, we do have to talk about Daisy. Your face lights up when you talk about her. And it's such a nice part of the conversation because I remember there are some things I don't want to talk about. But I remember telling my wife something when I was right in the depths.

[Joe Marler]

Right.

[Interviewer]

And I'm sure, you know, the way that you're sitting there now, you can remember a moment with your wife where it's like that. That is where true love comes into play here, isn't it?

[Joe Marler]

My wife is everything to me. She's wonderful. The stuff that she's experienced in her life and the strength she's then shown to come through that and be the rock that me and the kids rely on so often is just. I could sit here and eulogize about all the things. She'd turn around and go, sake, why are you talking? Can you stop talking about? I said, would you prefer it if I just send in videos of you snoring on my arm instead? And she said, no, just don't talk about me at all. I was like, well, I can't help but talk about you, mate. You've been the biggest influence on my life.

[Narrator/Host]

How did you guys meet?

[Joe Marler]

We went to school together, right. And, yeah, we went to school together. We actually went out when we were like, 13, 14. Young love, or so I thought, you know, she dumped me after a month. Maybe it was the really crap CD or Banana. I think I got her a banana for one old birthday. Yeah, the old romantic. Yeah, but we were all part of the same friend circle. And then I went off to. I moved out at 16, up to London to pursue rugby. But we sort of all kept in contact and I'd come down and we'd see each other weekends and all that, like. And then. Yeah. And then we just ended up falling back in love. I love her to pieces. And if it wasn't for her, I don't Say it lightly. I probably wouldn't be sitting here now. Not that I'd just be around the coffee shop or anything. I just. I don't think I'd be here now.

[Interviewer]

I want to talk rugby, but I also want to talk longevity in rugby. Like, to be going as long as you have is incredible. And I know that you're quite a fan of finding fads and various, like, cool things to try and keep the longevity going. Be playing as long as possible, stay as young as possible. I'd love to know the things that you've tried. I love all this sort of like experimentation, but also the things that have worked. Like, what have you found actually works really well for you.

[Joe Marler]

The biggest thing for longevity is to gather as much blackmail material against your coaches as you can and then they haven't got a choice but to keep you on board.

[Interviewer]

So there's a secret to Joe Marlow's.

[Joe Marler]

Career that is secret.

[Interviewer]

Thumbnail.

[Joe Marler]

Apart from that, I don't like when you said, oh, you enjoy. I do enjoy fad. I don't enjoy fad, but particularly in the latter part of my career, I'm starting to like, I need to look after myself more. When you're young and you're dumb and you're full of it, you don't need a warm up, you're just buzzing all the time, you just crack on. Luckily for me, I've rarely been injured and it was just, you know, away you go. But then you sort of hit the 28 mark in rugby and then you go, oh, I'm starting to feel a little bit more now. The Sunday Monday mornings turn into Sunday Monday Tuesdays and then at a push, we'll get a session out on the Wednesday and then it gets even harder up above 30 and then you hit 34 and you're like, oh, my God, what am I doing? I can't even peel myself off the bed after this now. So trying to find different ways to keep on top of the, you know, the temple. That is my melted wheelie bin.

[Narrator/Host]

Melted wheelie.

[Joe Marler]

You know, I've got a sauna at home now. I've got my ice tub. Investing in that, investing in looking after yourself, in the recovery process. So you can actually.

[Interviewer]

How often do you use them, like.

[Joe Marler]

And you go from one daily, daily in and out, and then mix it up with some sea bobbin. And it's usually sea. It's meant to be sea swimming, but I can't swim. So it's only ever sea bobbing because we only ever go out. Yeah. Just so that whenever I go with my brother in law, he's like, please can we not go too deep because I don't think I can rescue you if you're drowning. So what do you mean? He said, you just, you're a bit heavy, mate. I said, what would happen if I did start drowning this? I'd probably have to leave you.

[Interviewer]

I was like, save yourself.

[Joe Marler]

Cool, thanks for that. And what does that do for you? The bobbin's slightly different to just the ice plunge that I use at home and that. Like the bobbins. Actually it started a couple of years back where we'd go out on a Sunday morning first thing and it was nice to just get round, group of boys all just talking about the week, how they're feeling, everyone open up and having that as a platform to open up and just check in with everyone. And also I'd be in there and I never thought I'd say, you know, you're such a hippie. What are you coming out with this next sentence for? It's just such, just such wishy washy stuff. But then I'll be in there, it'd be freezing cold. Loving it. So you get that actual buzz and thing when you come out, but you're in there. But you look out at the sea and you just feel really insignificant in a good way because you go, I've got all of this going on in my head that I think massive issues that I'm struggling to control. But you look out this vastness of the sea and you go, it's massive. And we're. I'm so insignificant in this world. And then if I'm insignificant and what are the. These are even more, yeah, insignificant. And then it's just like a reset button of you get out and you feel great and you, you get to go and attack the weak like you do. So that's more of a mental process as to a mental refresh as opposed to a physical.

[Narrator/Host]

You know what that reminds us of? When we interviewed Tim Peake, the astronaut, he was saying that like there's a condition known that astronauts go through of when you see the world from outside orbit.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah.

[Narrator/Host]

Your sense of perspective is altered forever. That you can never take things seriously because. And you're describing something similar.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah, I love how you've compared me to Tim Pete going out and looking at the entire world, whereas I'm.

[Narrator/Host]

It was.

[Joe Marler]

I'm just bobbing up and down an Eastbourne sewage filled sea.

[Narrator/Host]

But I still say though for all of us because like we're not all going to go into space, but we can all get the same effects that you've just described.

[Interviewer]

I want to talk about culture. Oh, I would love to talk about the great cultures you've played in, but I'm also interested in the not so great cultures you've played in and why you thought they weren't such great cultures. And again, you know, almost everyone that listens to this either runs a business, works in a business, is a parent, is a colleague. You know, we're all having to deal with all kinds of different cultures and you've seen many of them.

[Joe Marler]

I find it hard talking about cultures because usually I'll be influencing it one way or the other, whether it's bringing it down or contributing it. You know, someone turn around. Why don't you use your powers for good more than evil? Like that's always been said to me and I'm like, okay. One of the best coaches I've been part of is at Harlequins where we actually ended up losing our head coach. He was sacked six months halfway through the season and the coaches that were left were still sort of young in their, in their journeys as coaches. So still pretty fresh, learning on the job sort of. And the senior players in that group were like, oh God, hang on, what's going to happen now? It sort of elevated the group, it elevated the, accelerated them to go, we've got to take charge, we've got to take more ownership here. Yeah, accelerated the leadership that you'd love to be there in conjunction with a coaching staff and management staff that you get a player led environment that's also guided by that allows that player. But you've got direction from the head coach and the manager. But it's led so injected. But this had swayed completely the other way where it was totally player led. And the coaches, the best thing they did was sort of facilitate that a little bit because they were still all getting to grips with the chaos that was losing the head coach and all that lot. And then we ended up winning the premiership from the playoff position on fourth in the semifinal, going 28 nil down at halftime to then coming back playing 105 minutes and beating Bristol in that game to then go into the final and play external, win 40 points to 38 or whatever, the highest scoring thing. And that culture was brilliant, like amazing because the players almost were like oh not we could do what we want but we were in control. It was player led beyond belief and we got to dictate sort of what we wanted to do in training. And even if this was suggested for training, it was kind of turned into actually we want to make it more attack based and thing. And you can tell because even now we're dealing with the after effects of really lacking in defense and all that. But then it got to the point where it was two player led. We were struggling with direction because you get all the players maybe wanting to do this, all different voices. And then we needed. We were yearning for someone to actually get a hold of us all and give us a bit more direction while still. And so it then turned to being great to then go, oh God, this is spreading out and we need that. So. So the best. That was a great environment to be a part of, but there was no longevity to it because it couldn't carry on like that. But the one that is fresh in my mind as well is the one under Steve. You've had Steve on here before, haven't you? Steve Gorfwick? Yeah, because he has that vision, he has that drive he has where he wants to take the team, but it's not my way or the highway, it's where do you guys want to take the team, what do you want to do, how do you want to attack, how do you want to defend? So he enables that player led environment to drive the standards drive it that. So then you get a better buy in from the group while still having this direction and all that lot. So.

[Interviewer]

And how does that compare to under Eddie Jones?

[Joe Marler]

I loved Eddie. I got him really well with Eddie. He was very supportive during those years that we spoke about and again came.

[Interviewer]

On him, gave us a.

[Joe Marler]

Was he as well? Yeah, mate, surely he. He threw a few in there as well. Oh, he was good, was he? No, he did, yeah, he did well, mate. He was great coming in, taking over the England team in 2016 from the low point that we'd been at bombing out of a home World cup to then come in, instill this confidence, this belligerence, which is sort of his character into the team was great. And then we went on to win a first Grand Slam in 13 years and then get into the World cup final and then bottle in it. But that, that four year period was unbelievable. Some of the best rugby moments we've had and it was. But it was a really challenging environment and it's important to have an environment that is challenging, you know, where you feel confident enough to challenge each other in the right way. But at times that environment was probably unhealthy. Too authoritative in the way of, too directive, too you Know, I used. When I left this environment and came back in, I had a bit of. A bit of freedom in the sense of like, I've come back in because I want to be here and I'm confident in who I am, what I do. And if you don't like it, I feel okay with you not picking me. I feel okay with you just sacking me off. I can walk away from it and still be all right. So that gave me a bit of freedom to sort of speak my mind more and, you know, encourage others and. But boys would be there sitting before a training session, like shaking, as if the sort of symptoms they'd have before a game, the nerves and the sickness in their stomachs. And I'm like, what's the matter with you lot? They're like, mate, this test match Tuesday, it's worse than playing a game because it's like we were flogged and we were pushed to the limits, particularly in that 2018 year. And I'm sitting there, lads like, this isn't, this isn't good. You shouldn't be feeling like this for a training session. Like, you can semi understand this for a game and the enormity of games it can be. This shouldn't be constant because God knows what this is actually doing.

[Interviewer]

Could you go and speak to Eddie about that and just say, look, this is too much?

[Joe Marler]

I could say the odd thing, but Eddie was, this is the plan, this is why I'm doing it. If you don't like it, I'll just get the next one in.

[Narrator/Host]

So there's a contrast. I'd be interested in exploring this with you, Joe. Like, we were lucky enough to sit down with Sia Khaleesi and Sia told us a lovely story of the night before that 2019 World cup final.

[Joe Marler]

Yep.

[Narrator/Host]

He said his wife had phoned him up and said, what are you thinking about? And he'd said, oh, the game tomorrow, the line out plans. And he said, what are you worried about that for? You've spent the last six weeks doing that. He said, well, what should I think about instead? And she said, well, tomorrow you're going to be a World Champion, so why don't you write down a list of all the things you want to achieve as a World champion? So he said he'd made a list of like, speaking out about gender based violence and opening up food banks. And he said that sense of purpose, of we're doing this for a bigger thing than just winning a World cup final was a really fundamental part of that sort of that powerful spirit that the Springboks have got. And when we told Eddie that, he was like, fuck. We weren't talking about that. And I'm interested in. You've experienced it, as you said, like this player dread, this sense of purpose that he had at Harlequin a little bit. It sounds understeered.

[Joe Marler]

There's also. There's always. Tends to be in successful teams, there always seems to be some sort of outside influence or emotional driver that isn't necessarily just everyone in the league, whatever sport you're in, everyone wants to win. Everyone at the start of the year always wants to win the Premiership. At the end of it, everyone's going to say that there's no one sitting there going, oh, I don't want to win it this year, do you know? I think everyone wants to win. But the teams that often win have more than that. The South African team, they wanted to win the World cup, of course, but another big driver was actually uniting their country and stuff like that. So they're always for teams that go on and achieve. There's always something added, whether it's externally or something else that's not specifically that sport or something that you get after to then bring the team closer together and. And go that extra mile when you.

[Narrator/Host]

So if there's coaches listening to this or leaders of teams that are going, yeah, how do you generate it without it appearing to be a gimmick or the kind of thing that turns people off rather than turns them on?

[Joe Marler]

That's so hard. It's so hard to generate it authentically because like I said, you think of a lot of successful teams, it hasn't been because someone's come in, forced it upon it. It happens organically, like the class of 92, you know. Well, they were all together. That was them growing up to having to do it. The same with Saracens, they had this core group of academy players, the Owen Farrell, the Winnipolas, Jackson Ray, like Jamie George, all together as the core that then followed through as. And that was their bigger driver, all these close mates. We had it similar back in 2012 when we won it. There was a. A big core of that group that had grown up together through the academy and been through all sorts on and off the field. I think it's really hard to generate that feeling by bringing something in that's not authentic or naturally comes with it.

[Interviewer]

I suppose you just need to make the most of it.

[Joe Marler]

You can see through it. Yeah, you make the most that you catch eyes it and most teams do that. And go, right, we've got this core group. They were that class in Saracens. They were driven by a teammate, Henry Fraser, his brother. His brother was a teammate of theirs. And that happened to Henry. He had an accident and ended up being in a wheelchair. And he's doing. He's doing amazing things now. But that was a big, you know, jealous. They became. Came closer and tighter, tighter unit. And that was sort of their inspiration to kick on with that.

[Interviewer]

Because one of my questions before we wrap up was, what do you think makes the best of the best? And it sounds like you're saying it's not about the physical abilities that a team has, it's about the emotional connection or the emotional driver that a team has.

[Joe Marler]

Yeah, the teams I've been a part of that have been successful and there's been few and far between, but it is the emotional bit that you get right that nails it and drives. Because usually at the top, with the best in the league, everyone's pretty much on the same level. Everyone's on the same level physically. Everyone tends to have the same tactics. Everyone tends to have the same style of play that they're doing. It's right. It's that emotional connection, how tight the group, how hard they're willing to work for each other. That isn't just, I want to work hard for you because it's my job. It's, I want to work hard with you because we've been through this and that outside of the game. So that is the really crap advice I would give to any coach listening to great advice.

[Interviewer]

And the final question, your one golden rule for living a high performance life.

[Joe Marler]

Full circle from what we spoke about at the start is golden rule for high performance is consistency. I've had moments where I feel like I've performed well, and usually that's because I've been consistent with getting the balance of work and life right, consistent with my diet, consistent with training, consistent with the emotional energy and all that lot. And they've been thingy. But it's so hard to do. It's so hard to keep that consistency when you've got so, so much else going on in your life with your family and your pride and all that side of it. So if you want to be a high performer, you need to strive for that consistency so that you get better, you get better performances more regularly. And that's the only thing I can come up with at the end of this. I can't believe what you two have done to me.

[Narrator/Host]

Well, thank you, Joe, for one of the most honest, vulnerable and candid conversations that I think we've ever had on this show. Just raw truth from the opening minute. Listen, if this episode resonated with you, whether it's the stories about mental health, finding purpose, or just trying to be consistent in an ever chaotic world, please consider sharing it with someone who you think could do with hearing it. And for more incredible conversations like this, we've got some incredibly rich episodes with real rugby legends like Johnny Wilkinson, Steve Borthwick, Siya Kholisi, Dan Carter, Alan, Wyn Jones, and many more. Go to the App Store where you can get early access to episodes from the High Performance app. As always, thank you for being with us. We look forward to seeing you next time.

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